Letter to a Buddhist Nation: Rebirth, Refuge, & the Limits of Skepticism | Sam Harris Q&A

Welcome to a Clear Mountain interview.

Today we are very happy to have Sam Harris join us for a conversation. Sam,

thanks so much for joining us.

>> Oh yeah, great to meet you both.

>> Yeah. Well, I'll just read a quick bio.

So Sam Harris is a neuroscientist and philosopher, author, podcaster whose work explores the intersection of science morality religion and contemplative practice. He holds a

contemplative practice. He holds a degree in philosophy from Stanford University and a PhD in neuroscience from UCLA. He's the author of several

from UCLA. He's the author of several New York Times bestsellers, including The End of Faith, The Moral Landscape, Free Will, Lying, and Waking Up: A Guide to Spirituality Without Religion. Sam

hosts the Making Sense podcast and is the creator of the waking up app which offers a secular and scientific approach to meditation and the good life. With

more than three decades of meditative practice, including a cumulative two years on silent retreat, he has studied under such teachers as Sidal Upandita

Punji Turku Rimpe and with his friend Joseph Goldstein.

uh I myself have listened to and read much of his work and uh his promotion of ethical thinking, effective generosity,

meditation and contemplative science more broadly. Uh I don't think that the

more broadly. Uh I don't think that the title that one of my monk brothers gave him inest is uh too off the mark. That

title being his holiness Sam Harris. So

>> I don't know if your friend is but uh >> well that that that praise will bounce right off but uh thank thank your your monk brother >> like like water from a lotus leaf. Yeah.

>> Um a number of years ago you were asked uh is it okay to divorce the helpful practices of Buddhism from Buddhism itself? And your response I liked it a

itself? And your response I liked it a lot. You said uh yeah just like you can

lot. You said uh yeah just like you can take the wine and crackers from Catholicism. So

Catholicism. So >> cool answer.

>> Did I say that?

>> Good answer. Yeah.

>> All right. Well,

nice dig at Christianity there. Okay.

>> Well, you know, Buddhism, we don't tear a lot of Buddhism. We don't do wine and Yeah. We don't do crack, but uh I am

Yeah. We don't do crack, but uh I am curious. I mean, we personally think

curious. I mean, we personally think that Buddhism is the motherload of good ideas, but I'm curious if you could, >> you know, find uh or talk about some of

the the things which maybe atheists or people who are very much in a secular camp and see uh Buddhism is, you know, dismiss it in this blanket. Okay, that's

a religion like any other and it's just full of a bunch of uh foolhardy beliefs.

Um what other things in addition to this? I mean that center of the

this? I mean that center of the bullseye, the centerless center of the bullseye that you just pointed us to is enough, but are there other aspects that you would uh precious jewels that you

might and have found in teachings of the Buddha?

>> Yeah. Well, I I don't think um insight into emptiness or or selflessness is tends to be enough for most people most of the time. I mean I I

I remain agnostic as to whether or not it's ultimately enough. Um I mean if you you know fully stabilize it and you're an arant or you know a Buddha or what

however you want to conceive of the the final condition um well then I suppose it's by definition enough but we just

we've just noticed so many um seemingly mature practitioners of meditation. And I mean even people who

meditation. And I mean even people who were built as enlightened masters uh misbehave so terribly in in their conditions of you power um this is

especially true I would say in the uh the vadriana you Tibetan Buddhist tradition um because I think some of the

safeguards around sila are are more relaxed there is I'm I'm I'm not aware of it being as true in the um uh the terravada tradition though I'm

sure there there are stories to tell but um it's it's less true there for a I think a variety of reasons. One I think the emphasis on sila is is tends to be

greater um and also the the role of the teacher is deemphasized. It really is kind of a technique-based teaching. It's not that that you know

teaching. It's not that that you know it's not that a great charismatic teacher isn't a great thing and it's not that there can't be a lot of devotion

for such a teacher but the um devotion as a me as a primary method or even as a kind a necessary component you know kind

of guru guru devotion um is is uh significantly deemphasized in a way that it's it's it's not in in certainly in in vajrana Buddhism and vajrana Buddhism is

is almost like Hinduism in that regard.

Um and um and obviously Zen has its you know um kind of uh

lionizing role of the teacher um and and a kind of deemphasis on on sila and compassion certainly by comparison with with

Terravada. So I think some of this some

Terravada. So I think some of this some of the guard rails have been removed and and um so it's not really a surprise that there probably more scandals that can come to mind in you know among Zen

teachers and and uh vana teachers than among vapasa teachers um and obviously you don't get me started on the the Hindu gurus um there there's endless

scandal there um so this does reveal a kind of paradox or seeming paradox which is you can be very very advanced in kind of meditative

accomplishment and still be a dangerous jerk of some description. Um, when you're when you're

description. Um, when you're when you're out there in the wild among other people um, and there's just there's this experiment has been run too many times for us to be

in doubt about it, right? So, I think more is needed at least most of the time. And that more that's needed is I

time. And that more that's needed is I mean is very much present in Buddhism. I

mean it is the eight-fold path after all. Right. So what you're talking about

all. Right. So what you're talking about things like right livelihood um you know and right speech as a as a necessary component to this. Um, and so

I think, you know, having a precept against lying is important, right? Just

just to know that you're not going to lie really ever unless you're in some kind of self-defense situation where, you know, you're choosing between lying

and and physical violence. Um,

you know, that's that's the that's the the exception I would I would uh that's obvious to me. Um but um so yeah I do think you know there there

are other things to know that are worth knowing in this world that can um give you a a a stronger set of ethics and um

when you when you actually ask the question of just what it you know what is required for all of us to live together in you know a global civilization that is functional and

improving and you know wherein we can be confident that the future is going to be better than the past or not worse uh and the the kind kinds of contributions we can all make to that. Well, then you're

by definition talking about politics and how can we make our politics sane and there I think the the contributions of Buddhism are are harder to detect.

Right? I don't know of a Buddhist society that has produced a politics that we should all envy and want to emulate. Right? I think there's there's

emulate. Right? I think there's there's a a kind of um a quietism and uh

you know I mean just it's there's there's a bunch of eastern um biases that I think you know that are cultural biases that are that are in

some ways not helpful to in producing a a sane politics right it's and it's um yeah I just kind of collectivist uh

herdlike uh you know ant colony um aspiration that is um doesn't map very well onto the kind of the primacy of individual

rights and and you know the freedom that we would locate and enshrine there again that has its own uh pathologies. Um I

think you know free people can get into their heads to to live uh profoundly unwise lives uh and you know have and want you desperately want things that

are not worth wanting in the end. Uh but

I do think that that that that the west has I mean just wisdom of all in all its forms has not been spread evenly over the surface of the earth. Right. So I

think you know the the contributions of of western science um and western philosophy are important

uh and in certain areas are are are making an asymmetrical contribution to to human uh progress and and human wisdom. Um I would say the

comparison is equally invidious in the other direction when you're looking at at at the contemplative life and you know what what you can do with your attention so as to recognize

um you know how to be happy in this world. Um there I think you know

world. Um there I think you know virtually all of the the really actionable wisdom is eastern uh because you know all of the the western contemplative traditions have

been uh explicitly framed within the the Abrahamic religion right so you're talking about Judaism Christianity and

Islam um and those uh those religions are so heavy-handed conceptually in their

dualism and in their emphasis on, you know, kind of the primacy of of revelation and the, you know, the revealed nature of these specific texts, the the unalterability of them. I mean,

there's just there's just the texts are so meager in their contemplative wisdom.

It's not that you can't find anything worth contemplating there, but you know, when you compare, you know, if you're just leaping through even the best parts of the the Bible,

um to say nothing of the Quran, uh which is even more um even a scanter resource there, um you compare that to just what

you could pull at random off a a Buddhist bookshelf, um it just doesn't survive comparison, right? Right? It's

just not, you know, um, you can, it's not to say that the Buddhist cannon isn't also full of miracles and magic and things that many secularists would

want to to doubt or, you know, disbelieve or at least bracket with uncertainty. I mean, it is, but

uncertainty. I mean, it is, but vast stretches of it are, you know, perfectly serviceable in a secular context for, you know, the contemplative

life, right? Right? I mean there's just

life, right? Right? I mean there's just clear teachings about the nature of awareness and you know just how to recognize it um by looking at directly

at the the nature of your experience and there's no there's nothing that has to be believed to get that project started right you don't have I mean you yes you

you can believe in karma and rebirth and and in the magical powers acquired by by uh advanced yogis and all of

Uh but you really don't have to to embrace the the project fully enough so that you can recognize everything we've been talking about in this conversation,

right? I mean, you really can un untie

right? I mean, you really can un untie the knot of self without believing anything and then just notice then then ask the question, what is there left to

to pay attention to?

And this echoes or dubtales on that question a bit. Um,

you've been cast as one of the, you know, four horsemen of the new atheism.

I don't know if that's a self self-proclaimed title or just something that's been laid on you.

>> No, that was that was uh we were dubbed that by somebody.

>> Thought so. And uh

and yet um you know and certainly though your one of your social or public identities is you know um rationalist skeptic. You literally wrote the book

skeptic. You literally wrote the book called The End of Faith. Um and you know we're so careful in Buddhist circles about translating sada which you know as

confidence in the triple gem.

>> Mhm. And yet there does come um a point I find for most people where after meeting enough uh teachers of real insight um or just seeing like you said

the the kind of potency of the teachings the Buddha's left for us and these reaches of the conscious uh mind which are so beyond what most would consider

normal where that that dry sterile word word um confidence no longer kind of does justice to what happens in the heart.

Um, and and where faith, you know, we don't really have a language for it, but there is an uplift and and something that you might call not blind faith, but but a certain faith or deeper resonance

emotionally with these teachings and with, you know, speaking of that gem in the glass, the bag of glass, um, >> you know, with a triple gem. And so what I'm curious is, you know, over these

years of meeting and this feels intimately related to a belief um in maybe there being a an aspect of the human mind which is truly can be

purified to kind of pristine nature and and so you've had you know contact with uh Punji with Joseph Goldstein with these amazing beings over such a long period of time. Do you find that um

there is this tension in you at all between the kind of public rational skeptic and or is there this and is there this kind of uh faith in a

different sense at all in you like what is your relationship to the triple gem Sam? Are you are you a Buddhist?

Sam? Are you are you a Buddhist?

>> I doubt I doubt so I doubt but uh what's your relationship to the to the triple gem?

>> I think people called you a stalking Buddhist >> stalking Buddhist in the faith.

>> A stalking Buddhist. Yeah.

>> Stalking horse. Stalking horse. Yeah,

>> I mean the way I say this is that um this is the way I said it in this recent lecture is that that uh I I don't consider myself a Buddhist but you would

know far more about the way I view the world by mistaking me for one than by knowing most other true facts about me.

>> Right? So, I don't think it's true to say that I'm a Buddhist because I I don't think Buddhism really has a monopoly on

on the wisdom that of the Buddha, right?

I mean, on some level, the Buddha wasn't teaching Buddhism or wasn't a Buddhist.

Um and anyone who has realized these things in any depth I mean just recognized emptiness say must recognize that there's this is deeper than this is an

insight about the human mind that's deeper than culture right it's deeper than um any tradition right so it doesn't justify any kind of sectarian claims

um any I mean you don't even have to be as as high fallutinant as as uh emptiness or any real insight it's just the fact that thoughts or

experience altogether is impermanent, right? Um,

right? Um, you know, just just that just being able to observe impermanence in in one's life, right? That no

experience lasts. You know, this is just this just ceaseless change in one's sensory engagement with the world and in one's inner life. It's just you know you

were you were angry yesterday but that anger is not here anymore right and if it appears again it it'll appear and then it'll disappear and you'll be on to something else right that insight into

impermanence that is not a Buddhist insight that is just the way the mind is right it's deeper than culture it's deeper than tradition and ultimately I do think we have to get out of the

business of being sectarian right so that ultimately speaking about an insight into emptiness as a Buddhist

insight, right? I think that's a little

insight, right? I think that's a little bit like talking about, you know, physics as a Christian insight because the Christians were the first people to really give us physics, right?

And Isaac Newton was a was a Christian um a very devout and unpleasant one apparently. Uh but um so I just think

apparently. Uh but um so I just think you know ju just as physics is deeper than Christianity or any culture that

that that would make progress in it. I

think spirituality and and a real a sane approach to ethics is deeper than any religious tradition including Buddhism.

U so that's why I I would tend not to call myself a Buddhist. And also I I I recognize that other traditions uh to one or another degree are are

uh mapping the same territory. Right? So

I think you know unlike some Buddhists who who would either be agnostic about this or um actually deny this I think it's just

it's pretty obvious that people like Raman Maharshi and Nisara Maharaj and Punji were talking about this same insight. you know, the fact that they

insight. you know, the fact that they they would tend to use the language of the kind of the the the vadic language of of of self, you know, capital S self

to to positively identify what is left when you're no longer uh captivated by your own uh ego. Um that's just a that's just a semantic difference. I don't

think anything really turns on that. And

I think there's where everyone's talking about emptiness or non-duality at at bottom. Um

bottom. Um but there some are talking about it more precisely than others and I think that I think the precision does matter in the end right I think it's it's possible to

spend a lot of time confused by very subtle concepts that are kind of subtly you know misleading you or biasing your

attention. Um

attention. Um uh and and I do think Buddhism has a a near monopoly on a lot of the precision

here. Um and again to to some degree

here. Um and again to to some degree to one degree or another depending on the tradition I mean for instance one of the reasons why I you know once once I could practice non-dual mindfulness well

then you then I could sort of see it everywhere right and I can read Zen teaching with great edification uh and feel like well you okay the you

know this Zen teaching is totally on point but I know that if I had gone through the front door of of the Zen tradition I would still be confused, right? I

mean, like like you can spend a lot of time, at least by my lights, not knowing how to meditate in the Zen tradition.

Like you're just you just can spend years wondering whether you're doing it correctly. I think um and honestly, I

correctly. I think um and honestly, I think it's this and I've said this before. I said this um

before. I said this um I'm I'm not sure I've said this o over at Waking Up, but I've said this somewhere. Um, I think I probably had I

somewhere. Um, I think I probably had I not met Tuk organ uh and and just found myself in the presence of another great Zchen master, I might not have

recognized how to practice Zjen and I just would have come away wondering whether I was doing it right. Um,

I mean his he was uniquely precise in how he taught and and many and and I've been with many great Zjen masters.

Um I mean the greatest you know of the age really. I mean some who took Oregon

age really. I mean some who took Oregon would have would have you know if you had asked him would have said he you know was was a much greater Zjen master than than he was. Someone like Keny Ripache and I've been with them when

they were teaching Zoggen. I mean that when they were giving mind teachings um in a you know very formal way and you know I recognized in that context that I

would not have gotten the point had I not had to gorgan's instruction prior to being there right and I I even

had the the great good fortune to spend a lot of time with Neil Shoken who um you know by everyone's estimation was just this amazing zen master. He um he

was someone who the Daly Lama considered a teacher and >> um you know had been with all the great llamas of the time and um he was a contemporary of Tulor again and um a

little younger than Kenya. Uh but I had a lot of access to him. Spent just a lot of uh you know informal time with him.

Um created uh several monthlong and two-monthlong retreats with him. Um

two of which were in my house in in uh New Mexico at that point. So I mean I just could just hang out with him as a as a teacher. uh he didn't speak English so there was a translation problem but

um you know had a you know a translator there all the time um and uh

he was I mean he was constantly teaching Zochen just with his vibe right and I I I spent I had just immense devotion to him as a teacher

um and a fair amount of pure perception of him as a teacher I mean there's the times where I he would just he would just look like guru to me. I mean just I just was in the presence of an

enlightened master clearly.

Um and yet I don't think I would have been able to practice zogchen by be spending all that time with him and and getting

his zogchen teachings. I don't think he I he wasn't he wasn't delivering the goods precisely enough for for for me at that you know that I just would have I I

would have been getting the vibe I would have had the non-striving vibe uh well in hand but um yeah I mean the crucial bit for me was

the it's right on the surface component right the not don't overlook like the the gesture of overlooking it of of of

spending too much time and too much time is is is of you know a full second trying to get this thing you know to glimpse this thing. Um again this is

this the instruction that's necessary to get started is different than how you wind up practicing ultimately like the practice isn't ultimately I I'll give

you just a you know um I'll just describe what that is. I mean the change is like so this initial trying to turn attention upon itself to to look for the

what's looking that that trying to turn is this initial um way of of recognizing that there's no center to experience

once you once you've recognized that I mean once you've got got the paper moving back and forth back and forth and you now you know where to hold now now you can see that the dot isn't it disappears Right. Again, it's not a

disappears Right. Again, it's not a perfect analogy because that this sounds like you're trying to maintain some kind of state, which you're not. But um

but once you've once you once you know how to to to see that there's no center, well, then in just a very straightforward and ordinary way, you just you're just mindful of that, right?

It's not then there's not this continuous sense of turning turning and not finding. Um so that is kind of an

not finding. Um so that is kind of an initial exercise. But the crucial piece

initial exercise. But the crucial piece for me was the nearness, you know, and the and the the just how

subtle the the non-effort is, right? It is this shift of plane. It

is, right? It is this shift of plane. It

is like, you know, you're looking through you're looking through the window. So again, just imagine what it's

window. So again, just imagine what it's like to look through a window and not see your face at all. Right? It's right

there just 6 in away. But you it's not you don't see it at all because your starting point is you're looking at this beautiful tree outside on the front lawn and it's you know its branches are

waving in the wind and there's a child at play underneath it and there are birds, you know, that you can hear singing from the top of it and you're studying all of that with mindful

attention very one-pointedly and the teacher saying, "No, no, no. Don't you

understand? It's right. It's closer to you than that. Right? Forget about the tree. You can keep looking in that

tree. You can keep looking in that direction. I'm not telling you to move

direction. I'm not telling you to move your eyes, but this thing is closer, right? And it takes less time to see

right? And it takes less time to see than the tree, right? It's like and there's this shift of plane that reveals your face, right? Um without moving your

head or your eyes.

So again that that's the initial condition of just of figuring out how to see this thing that is that this this this moment of absence uh that leaves everything else intact right that again

you you can see and hear and smell and and sense and and even thoughts can arise right there's also this initial conditioning is one in which thoughts are apparently the enemy because

thoughts are the thing that that's that that that are distracting you that are making it impossible to be mindful of anything much less the the ocean of emptiness that that is

before you uh and that is that is in fact your condition. Um

so again yeah so again this is the paradox to come back to your question.

Um you know I'm always long-winded but with you guys I I've achieved a level of long-windedness that I think >> that's great will will stand the test of

time. um the um

time. um the um so my relationship to some of the kind of spookier aspects of Buddhism and to take the kind of larger footprint of

Buddhism including you know Vadrana Buddhism um it's somewhat paradoxical because I mean I've had all these experiences I mean I have the experience of real devotion and

I you know have even the experience of of seeing my teacher as as a perfect Buddha but all the while knowing that he wasn't or very likely wasn't or

at least I could recognize other qualities in him as just an ordinary person or or he certainly more ordinary than being perfect. Um, which is to say, you know, it's it's obvious to me that

all these great teachers I I studied with were people who were culturally bound to some degree even in so far as there even if only in

so far as they were um there are many things that they didn't understand about the world, right?

Right? I mean, I would not have looked to any of these guys for insight into, you know, quantum physics or any other branch of science, right? I mean, I, you

know, I was with some teachers who might well have thought the earth was flat, right? Right. I mean, I've seen

flat, right? Right. I mean, I've seen some yogis who just had spent decades in caves and, you know, I I don't know what kind of education they had gotten prior to going into those caves, but I mean, this is just, you know, these are not

guys you're going to stick a microphone in front of and and ask uh, you know, tell us what our 21st century worldview should be around human health or or um,

you know, asteroid impacts or anything else. Um

else. Um and so there's just a lot to know and it's pretty clear that that meditation uh you know barring some you know magical

um change uh uh that uh I have have not witnessed um you know omniscience uh uh

meditation doesn't deliver those those insights right um and I think some of those insights matter. You know, if you if you don't want your kids to die of

unnecessarily from from viruses, well, it's important to have insights into biology and have a society that can ramify those insights into, you know,

medical technology and vaccines, etc. and and um you know there wide variety of traditional cultures that have had

lots of insights into into emptiness but haven't had you know material insights into how to build a society that is that can survive uh or or that can even

encourage you basic human health um to the degree that we can uh now and so um

so yeah I am I view the, you know, the the precious jewel of of the Dharma in this larger context

where there's just more that we there's more that is that's worth having in hand and and there's more to know and um

explore to safeguard everything that we care about in this world.

>> Sam, thank you. Um, I'm curious to hear your perspective on the final jewel, the the jewel of of the SA.

>> Um, you know, you say in your your article, um, killing the Buddha, which to your big credit, you don't actually advocate killing the Buddha.

>> That's good. It's great. Great start. Um

but you I think in there you do say that we as students of the Buddha should dispense with Buddhism but from a monastic perspect Buddhist monastic perspective like we're wearing the flag

of the Buddha and honestly just speaking for myself I feel like it's a beautiful life. I mean, I've been able to live in

life. I mean, I've been able to live in really healthy and mature communities with >> really uh very wise teachers and to be

able to see that centerless center that that we're you know circling around in a way um it can take time you know as you said the mindfulness can be one of these

preliminary practices or bowing or all the other you know uh nondro practice of uh of Tibetan Buddhism uh it takes time and I'm curious ious if you could say more. I've never heard you speak about

more. I've never heard you speak about this in public. I mean, you though you are, you know, a serious skeptic on many things. You have had monastic teachers

things. You have had monastic teachers like uh >> um Ningor Rimpushche and of course Upand Sid Up and on your app you've got Ayan

Deodi and uh Juma Tenzen Palmo Jasara Jatendria >> and talking with us and I'm curious in your essay in another essay I think the

problem Yeah. the problem with atheism.

problem Yeah. the problem with atheism.

Um, you elaborate the reason, the logic behind a monastic life and I would just love to hear you explain that here. Um,

for those who are just totally dumbfounded, feel like it's a total waste of a life to, uh, if you do see that a monastic endeavor in a healthy

environment with a wise and a wise teacher could have value. Um yeah, what what is that value and would you ever recommend it to somebody?

>> Yeah. Well, again, this is um sort of the realm of paradox. I mean

because it's on some level um yeah I mean I don't think there's any way of avoiding paradox here but so on

the the first pass here it's obviously incredibly valuable to practice and to get access to to people who have practiced more effectively than you have

you know thus far right i.e great

teachers um and I mean at every level I mean they're they're inspiring you know they they they can prove to you just by the way they are that this project is worth

engaging in the first place if you even can't feel it yourself from the beginning but um uh even once you become self-sufficient in your practice which is to say you're

confident that the there is a there there you know whatever example a teacher provides Um I mean you know that uh all the pleasures you can seek in the

world are by definition impermanent right and they can't be the basis of of lasting satisfaction right and just repeating your pleasures as rapaciously

as you can achieve uh you know just what sort of durable happiness is can that be and you know you can give that a try for years at a stretch but at a certain

point you you might realize well there's got to be something deeper here and uh why not focus on that entirely, right? If only for a time, right? Why

right? If only for a time, right? Why

not give that your full attention? Well,

then the just the logic of that withdrawing your attention from every other concern and putting it entirely on that that produces a a something like a

monastic retreat almost by definition, right? Like I'm just going to do I'm

right? Like I'm just going to do I'm going to do nothing but this. not going

to read any other books or any books at all and I'm not going to talk to anyone about anything and I'm not going to get married and I'm not going to have kids and I'm not going to uh you know find a career and I'm not going to do any of

that. I'm just going to bear down on

that. I'm just going to bear down on this existential concern of you know what is happiness you know what is what

is well-being at the deepest possible level within this realm of changes right you know again it's not it can't be just

keeping the you know a dozen different plates spinning because you know they they stop spinning the moment you you uh

let up and um there's a dissatisfaction even in that those moments of satisfaction, right? You begin to notice

satisfaction, right? You begin to notice that that that you know pleasure on some level isn't good enough, right? And so so it's very easy to just without without

being told that you should be a Buddhist or you should be a monk or you should adopt any tradition just the logic of your of your inquiry into the implications of impermanence and the

nature of experience and the question the you know the overriding question is it possible to be free in this context of of of impermanence

um is it possible to really be happy even though everything changes and and um everyone

ultimately dies. Um if if there's a

ultimately dies. Um if if there's a possibility of a yes there, well, why not find that, right? All of a sudden that begins to look like

a monastic life on some level. Um

but the paradox is that once you find its real basis well then why should you have to do anything out of the ordinary to just live as that

right? Why why should you have to

right? Why why should you have to withdraw from the world? Why should you have to not have a family or not be married or not have a career or not watch television or not I mean well you

know you can you can recognize emptiness while watching a movie and you know and eating fistfuls of popcorn too right so why not just do that right I mean if

that's what's happening why not do that >> every time you reference a show I'm like >> can't watch that

>> so so um yeah so it's Um so on some level it some level it doesn't matter but on on another level it matters quite a lot what you do with your attention right so and and maybe

this is just a stage thing you know in one stage of life it really really matters that you give all your attention to this project and in another stage it matters less um

and the truth is I you know I I can't personally say that I know I'm living correctly I mean it's totally possible that there's some it it would be

possible for me to to get to the end of my life I imagine and and you know you know retrospectively look back on the last

you know many decades and say it would have been much better to have practiced much more right like I you know I wasted a lot of time on some

level like I I could I I I could imagine that that an epiphany like that await ates me. And that's the kind of epiphany

ates me. And that's the kind of epiphany that being a monk is is um is a very is a very deliberate you

strategy very deliberate hedge against, right? Like you just like when you

right? Like you just like when you decide to be a monk, you're deciding, okay, I don't want to be that guy. I

don't want to be the guy who gets to the end of his life and thinks, oh I should have really been practicing rather than doing all these other things

I I got distracted by. Um, and I totally understand that. Um, and yet

understand that. Um, and yet and and another way of of thinking about this is when you look at why aren't you a monk or why why am I

not a monk?

And why don't I spend my days doing nothing but practice?

Well, mostly that's a story of all the other things that captivate me, right?

all the other things I want, all the other things that I haven't seen through the illusion of on some level. I mean,

so it really is a story of samsara, right? To put it in Buddhist terms. I

right? To put it in Buddhist terms. I mean, it's it's like, whoa. Oh. Oh. So,

you're you're telling me you wanted a wife and you wanted kids and you wanted a career and you want all those pleasures that require uh more money than you currently have. And so now you now you're working harder. Oh, is that

the story you're telling me? Well,

that's sure sounds like samsara, right?

That doesn't sound like emptiness. Um so

yeah that's true. Um and yet I find that I can punctuate all those moments with a recognition of emptiness. Right? So the

the kind there's kind of an equalization and this this happens. I mean this is a part of the the power of being able to practice non non-dual mindfulness but

it's also a a liability of it because I mean if you can really just drop your problem you can drop your predicament you know always on demand in an instant

right as one can when one can really recognize emptiness um then one is then it's true to say that you're never far away from from

your deepest insights right you're just you can always just you know you can just be free in the next moment but whatever you've been doing by tendency

in previous moments but it also can take the urgency out of the whole life plan of being a a yogi right because then

you're then you can never really wander too far your your your life can never really be that dysfunctional because the emptiness is always just right here you

know how judgmental can you be of the way you just spent the last hour if you can let go of all of it in this instant, right? How much regret can you really

right? How much regret can you really feel if you can really just recognize emptiness?

And yet there can be a lot of moments over the last hour where you were just captivated by just random that shouldn't have been that wouldn't have certainly wouldn't have captured the the

attention of of Dilo Kensy Ripache or some great master presumably. Um and uh and and the fact that it did capture

your attention explains why, now speaking personally, the fact that it did capture my attention, it explains why I'm not tending to show up like

Kensing Ripe in most moments, you know, of the day. you know, it's like it's not um there's an ordinariness to my life

that is pretty easy to explain given how given the the many ordinary uses of attention that you know that I'm fair still fairly dedicated to on a on a

daily and an hourly basis. Um,

and if I I think if I believed more of what I consider the kind of the metaphysics and the mythology and the superstition of Buddhism or any other

tradition, I might feel more urgency around all of that. Like for instance, if I thought I if I was sure that karma and rebirth were real, right? And you

know, everyone I love in this life is going to be lost to me in a few short years and then I'm going to be plunged into some other circumstance. is going

to be just as impermanent and just as unsatisfying and I've been doing that from beginningless time and you know this precious opportunity to practice as a you know in a human birth is you know

analogous to you know a tortoise surfacing once a kalpa into a vast ocean with a you know a single life preserver floating randomly on the surface and you

know once in a in a you know 50 trillion years it manages to get it put its head through that yoke and that's that's the preciousness of a human life or you know

you know all the other analogies. um if

the circumstance really is that precious and that precarious and I'm using it to you know sometimes practice and sometimes recognize this you know this

condition but in many other moments I'm just looking for something to watch on Netflix or I'm you know shopping for for uh groceries or whatever it is um or

reacting to some awful thing that happened in our politics Um, you know, maybe maybe simply having the

rel the the traditional religious orientation toward, you know, you know, Buddhist principles could have spared me a lot of that. And

I'd be, you know, I'd be, you know, you and I, the three of us would have the same haircut and, uh, wearing the same clothes.

>> All your clothes are rectangles. Well,

my hair is my hair is also falling out, so I'm going to get there one way or the other. Uh, you know, you know, rope or

other. Uh, you know, you know, rope or not. Um but uh

not. Um but uh yeah so I just the truth is I just don't know and and I uh but I but by tendency

I am I am agnostic on many points about which you know you know traditional Buddhists would want me to be gnostic and um

and I also you know and fundamentally doubt other things and uh yeah so I'm just I'm muddling along uh on the on the shore of emptiness uh

along with you guys uh and doing it differently.

>> Thank you, Sam. And um yeah, we're not monastic supremacists in the sense of uh demanding you ordain right now. Although

>> okay you playing the long game >> maybe a few years but uh we do um I think it is one of the great gifts you've given our culture is um you've

managed to bring these teachings uh into the cultural consciousness in a way that that is very valuable and accessible and we really honor that. Um I think that's

deeply needed at this this particular moment. Um,

moment. Um, speaking of the uh kind of more magical elements of Buddhism, we promised Joseph Goldstein two days ago that we would ask

you this question >> and that's uh what is your relationship to the idea of rebirth and we told him we'd add on um what do you think your

relationship was with Joseph last lifetime?

Uh well uh it was probably master and slave, but I'm not sure in which direction

um given our our current uh karma. Um

>> yeah, you know, I you know, honestly, I just don't I'm I'm just agnostic as to how weird this universe might be. I

mean, you know, it's um however you think about it, it's deeply weird. I

mean, I think I think the traditional picture of of rebirth is is obviously weird, but so is the um the notion of

uh not existing prior to one's birth and not existing after one's death. You

know, that that consciousness it just is created from nothing and vanishes into nothing. That is also weird. Um,

into nothing. That is also weird. Um,

yeah, there there are obviously many theories in good standing in modern physics that are that are um even weirder and in some ways uh strike a

tangent to uh if if not a notion of rebirth kind of a similar picture of of um multiplicity and stranges. I mean the the many worlds interpretation of

quantum mechanics suggests that there at this moment are you know a functionally infinite number of copies of ourselves having uh increasingly dissimilar

conversations to this one you know in in adjacent slivers of slices of this this universe um based on um uh things that are happening at the

quantum level. um you know how anyone

quantum level. um you know how anyone can believe that with a straight face is is uh something that escapes me. Um and

yet that is you know probably the most kosher interpretation of quantum mechanics at least in the current generation of of physicists. Um

so I just I don't I mean I think the universe may in fact not not only be as you know JBS Haldane famously said not only stranger than we suppose but stranger than we can suppose. um that

we're just actually not capable of of of conceptually representing the circumstance we're in.

And so how that relates to the the mystery of of birth and death, I don't know. But um I mean I've certainly had

know. But um I mean I've certainly had experiences in meditation and on psychedelics that that intuitively gave me the sense that

that mind is is much vaster than it tends to seem, right? that you can just you can be you can find yourself in a

entangled with a a kind of a a vastness of of mental landscape that is um that is just that has that makes no

reference to your personhood even right and across which it's impossible to remember that you even are a person um

and uh entry into that space certainly felt a lot like what I imagine dying would feel like. Um

so uh you know if if upon death we find ourselves in a circumstance of of just much more mind without any

reference to what was happening here in with our bodies. Um

intuitively that wouldn't surprise me given certain experiences I've had. And

and again none of this is to discount the the plausibility of you know mind being entirely a product of what the brain is doing. I mean that is also

you know there's a lot of you're not going to embarrass yourself by thinking that right but again it's still not clear how

consciousness is is integrated with matter on on any level even even by reference to all that we know about you know the mind's dependence on the brain through through 150 years of

neuroscience. Um,

neuroscience. Um, so I just really, the truth is I just really don't know. Um, and I wouldn't, you know, any

answer seems surprising, right? There's

nothing that there's nothing that seems intuitively common sensical about any of this. It's

somewhat analogous to the um the question of is there more advanced life out there in the universe or are we alone? Right? that the so-called Fermy

alone? Right? that the so-called Fermy paradox or the Fermy problem, you know, I find that either answer is completely mind-blowing, right? The idea

that we might be alone, that you look out there, you know, at trillions upon trillions of, you know, possibly habitable planets and solar systems that

we have every reason to believe exist at this point. And the idea that there's

this point. And the idea that there's nothing complex that's alive on any of them, right? um that we're the only

them, right? um that we're the only point of view on the universe on this lonely rock, right? That seems insane.

But the idea that the universe is teeming with other conscious complex creatures and you know even civilizations and it basically it's all you know Star Trek or Star Wars out

there on some level that also seems completely insane right so and anything in between seems also arbitrarily weird and insane. So it's just like there's no

and insane. So it's just like there's no answer that that you can get comfortable with. And I I do feel the same about

with. And I I do feel the same about the uh the mystery of of birth and death.

>> Maybe just to draw a slightly finer point on that and I appreciate that newbie. Yeah. Fascinating if there was

newbie. Yeah. Fascinating if there was uh yeah cllingons and all sorts of things like that. But um yeah, in his book uh rebirth in early Buddhism and current research, Bonte Analio, do you

do you know him? Have you met him?

>> I've never met Analia. I know that that Joseph holds him in very high regard and I've read some of his um his work on mindfulness, but I but I've never met him.

>> Yeah, this is a really interesting book.

So, Rebirth and Early Buddhism and Current Research. He reviews the

Current Research. He reviews the literature on near-death experiences, past life regression, children's past life memories, and xenoglossi, which is the ability to speak a language that

you've never been taught. Um and his conclusion is although these accounts allow for various interpretations and fall short of definite proof, the body of data shifts rebirth from religious

creed to a reasonable belief supported by evidence.

How do you think secular scientists should engage with this kind of evidence?

>> Yeah. Well, I think I would add a a few more layers of skepticism to that summary. I mean, so I'm familiar with

summary. I mean, so I'm familiar with the I I haven't read Analyio's work on this, but it sounds from your description that he was fairly reliant on the work of Ian Stevenson, who was a

like one of the few scientists who decided I this this is just I know I know everyone's treating this like intellectual pornography, but I just have to study this spooky stuff. And so

he spent a you know his his life studying um rebirth and and xenoglossy uh and wrote some very fat books on

those topics which I have read. Um

and what you find I mean one is it it is fishy and there's a few exceptions to this but not many. It is fishy that the testimony around rebirth tends to appear

in cultures that have an a background belief in rebirth. Right? Right. I mean,

so this is not tending to happen in um you know, in Brooklyn where you know, you're just you're just there just a bunch of Christians and Jews who um

don't think about don't think of uh prior lives in any in any way and um they all of a sudden they have a kid who's claiming to have been

someone else in a previous existence and you know even using terms that they couldn't possibly know etc. Um so if that it would be more prec you

would you would expect it to happen um in every culture sort of with equal frequency if it were just this propensity of the human mind to occasionally remember what happened

before birth if something in fact happened before birth um and you wouldn't you wouldn't expect it just tend to happen in places like Sri Lanka

or India or Burma etc um you You know, there's one like the actually the greatest story like this, the most persuasive piece of evidence uh

of this kind of testimony I ever saw appeared in a book that had nothing to do with rebirth. And if memory serves, the writer didn't even think about

rebirth when reporting this testimony.

This was a book on child prodigies. Um I

forget who wrote it. Uh you you could you could easily find it because the title was nature's gambit. And there's

one it was it was all just testimony of parents and and other people who had been caring for young children who were showing you know prodigious intellectual

gifts whether you know intellectual or artistic. So you know you you know the

artistic. So you know you you know the the kid would learn you know foreign languages at the age of you know two or

three or um you know begin to calculate or or um uh uh play chess or do something else.

some other act of higher cognition, you know, very very early and and suddenly at a very very high level, right? So,

just the classic prodigy stories. Uh but

one of these stories entailed a kid that claimed again from a very early on I think the kid was like two or three was claiming it just the only the only

way that the the parents could make sense of it was that the kid had like claimed to have been you know killed by the Nazis or you know like that that the was it just living in fear of something

that had happened previously but if again it's been years since I looked at this book but uh so forgive me if I have some of these details wrong, but if memory serves, this was a context which

any student of, you know, Buddhism or or e Eastern spirituality and and anyone with a notion of karma and rebirth would have immediately seized upon it as, oh my god, this is this is testimony about,

you know, past lives. But the author and the parents did none of that. they were

just, you know, this was just part of the this um kids prodigious abilities to kind of to represent, you know, kind of

higher level cultural concepts that that then should have been available to a 2-year-old or a three-year-old. And they

just were never interpreting this in terms of past life. Um, so anyway, that's the kind of thing that would be more compelling to me than the the um

the Indian couple that shows up on the, you know, the afternoon show analogous to the Indian version of Oprah claiming that their he remembers his past lives

and and um because then there's, you know, there are cultural incentives to this. I mean I know that it's um this is

this. I mean I know that it's um this is somewhat you know offset by the fact that yes rebirth in a in a Indian context you know whether Buddhist or

Hindu is actually not a happy story really it's not that everyone wants to is hopeful that that that this is the case in the way that westerners are you

know in in in western years rebirth tends to be something people want to believe in right like it's good news right? That you get, you know, you like,

right? That you get, you know, you like, you know, you're going to get, you know, another life after this one. So, death

is, death is an illusion. Isn't that

great? But that's not, they're not really picturing the wheel of rebirth the way, you know, Buddhists and even Hindus, uh, picture it. Um,

so, uh, but anyway, I'm skeptical of some of those stories. I think some of the story you the the the the scope for fraud in many of these stories

is pretty obvious and wishful thinking and confirmation bias. Um

but not perhaps not in every case but I just I I do think you know this just the this falls under the rub rubric that you know extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence and much of this

evidence isn't that extraordinary in my experience.

Thank you, Sam. And I I appreciate just the measured uh tone and the the the real holding I I feel in a genuine way of of respectful agnosticism for this whole realm, which you're right, it's

kind of strange whatever way you come down on.

>> Agnosticism, >> uh an agnostic um not knowing if rebirth is true or not.

>> And this is this is true for a psychic phenomenon, too, like you know, the powers of so-called cities. And I mean I'm I'm very skeptical of some of the more the more grandiose claims that have been made

>> for by some you know about somebody like Deepama for instance. Um

and the reason why the reason why a lot of these claims should like I mean you know the true believers in some of these stories I mean they think and this is you know these stories are are a dime a

dozen for Hindu gurus as well. like the

the endless claims for magic powers with a teacher like Maharaji and you know Ramdas pulled together um two books on on on just the miracle stories attributed to to Maharaji

um but there you know there are Buddhists who have miracle stories attributed to them even in a contemporary context like Joseph's teacher Deepipama was said to have I

mean I think she was on an outing with people and the bus you know got stuck on some Indian road and then she just moved the bus with the power of her mind to some other place so so that their their

journey could continue.

But you have to ask yourself I mean so this sounds there are many reasons to find this implausible but one reason which is rarely mentioned is an ethical

one which is if you have power of this sort right think of all the suffering you are not alleviating you're just you're just letting happen uh though

you're you're you're willing to to move a bus with your mind to just keep these these pilgrims on their on their schedule. Think of all the pe lives you

schedule. Think of all the pe lives you did, you know, Deepipamad didn't save that day, though she could have with her magic powers, right? I mean, so there's a kind of, you know, odious or at least

obnoxious ethical picture kind of coming into focus when you actually do the the moral math on on th those decisions, right? If you attribute kind of almost

right? If you attribute kind of almost unlimited power to some sida and you and and then you you you hear the stories about how they use the power to u you

know whatever it is turn water into wine or just get people to you know to from one place to the to the other on schedule. Um or just impress their um

schedule. Um or just impress their um their their students with magic tricks.

Um, and they didn't cure the cancers or, you know, keep the kids from, you know, getting, you know, engulfed in fiery car crashes or whatever it was they didn't

do that day, which they could have done.

Uh, presumably, um, it begins to look like a very weird belief system.

>> Generally, we're against water to wine actually. So, that save on that.

actually. So, that save on that.

So Sam, we have you for a little longer and we actually wanted to go into a lightning round which might actually last 40 minutes. We'll see. But

>> we're going to we put together some questions. The first of which will be um

questions. The first of which will be um if you had the Buddha on your podcast, what would your first question be for him?

>> First question um or a question I mean, I guess I would I, you know, if you're actually giving me the Buddha

himself, I would um I would treat it a lot like uh you know, a question for the the proverbial genie or oracle, you

know, I would basically find some way of asking him what what what is the most important question I could ask and what is its answer? I mean some some sort of say you know self-referential

question that that that plows his wisdom into the question itself.

>> Do you have any guess of what his answer might be? What is the most important

might be? What is the most important question?

>> Yeah. Well, I mean based on the teaching he was not um you know as you know he he you know with this sort of handful of

leaves u statement he you know the the the um the leaves he had in hand which he was offering for our contemplation were

were you know stood in relation to the the the forest of of uh trees.

um as you know the kind of the the the important wisdom stands in relation to all possible facts that that you know

could be known and of which he was you know competent to discuss right so like you've taken his claim of something something like omniscience seriously um there's just a handful of things that

you really want to know and need to know and you know and he he was he declared that he was focusing on those uh and then whenever were pressed about some of

the the inscrable stuff we were talking about, the spookier stuff, rebirth, etc. Um, to my in my recollection, he tended

to to not want to just connect all those dots. He just basically

dots. He just basically uh said this is this is uh this is not something you really you really need to worry about. Um, and perhaps you can

worry about. Um, and perhaps you can remind me what the extent of what he said there. I mean obviously there was

said there. I mean obviously there was um there's some teachings about rebirth and karma otherwise we wouldn't have these you know these beliefs within Buddhism but he really didn't you know

as far as fully unwinding the the paradoxes there he he basically said this is this is not what is best thought about.

Yeah. No, that's a great summary. And it

was the specifically the four noble truths like all of the leaves in at hand are basically the teachings of the four noble truths and practicing those >> suffering in the end of suffering.

>> Suffering and and on that note uh Sam you seem to know a fair number of poly Buddhist words which every time you use one it totally spikes my dopamine.

>> When you say duka I feel suka. And

>> I'm curious what word from the Buddhist lexicon do you feel deserves to be more widely known in the West?

Um, well, I do think the the um the term uh mana, which I I I think is is usually translated as conceit,

>> right, >> is interesting in the way that it um maps on to this issue of of uh kind of

self-trcendence right?

In my in my understanding in the the um in the traditional kind of vudi maga progress of insight framework mana isn't uprooted until full

enlightenment rights. So you know even

enlightenment rights. So you know even an anagami would would would have uh um this this sort of defilement of of

so-called conceit which is not is in my understanding it's not just it's not the like the coarse conceit of being like you know I being a con conceited person

um it's much more just like even just having a a a self-concept in reference to others right I mean just just kind of even just mapping your representing

yourself to yourself in comparison with others. You know, even even if even

others. You know, even even if even comparison comparing yourself unfavorably to others would be this kind of conceit. Um

of conceit. Um I do think there is a um there's something about so so the the insight into selflessness

um or or anata is is is a um you know you you don't have an an ata

you don't on this account you don't have a self but um this this uh of conceit is another asp

aspect of self-representation which is um which is interesting to to reflect on and it is it it is some it is the kind

of thing that is absent at least you know in my view when one is recognizing emptiness or recognizing you know non-dual awareness it's like it's like

the gesture like it's very it can become very salient the departure from recognition uh

by virtue of representing oneself.

It's like as I mean to kind of kind of put it in neurological terms like the usual starting point is we when you look at when you think about what our brains are doing our brains are

representing a world they're also representing our bodies in the world as part of the world. I mean distinct from the world but also just part of the world. Your when you look down your body

world. Your when you look down your body is is out there. It's in you know part of it is is in your visual field. Um,

and you you sort of sensor in even vision aside, you sort of broadcast this kind of internal map of your body out there in the world that you're representing.

Um, in addition to that, there's this third representation of a self or a subject interior to the body. And that

is the specious self, the ego that we we the ata that we we find absent. and and

that's kind of the the the you know the the jewel of one of the jewels of Buddhism certainly is to recognize that that the falseness of that point of view but again that's kind of a third layer

of of mapping that the that the mind uh or brain is accomplishing. Um

but in addition to like just having this sort of um fundamental sense of being located as a subject, there are these kind of other

layers of the onion of self which um and and mana is one where you're just you're kind of just thinking about yourself.

like it's it's not the same thing as feeling like a self, but it's just it is like a it's a um I it's again it's kind of hard to talk

about because the shadings here are subtle but like um there's there's a certain way of representing the self or or um

it's interesting to consider for instance the the the relationship between self, the classic state of mind that we call self-consciousness in English

and the self itself, right? And I I do think there's there's a fairly those those are pretty cotminist like um so when you say when you say the phrase

self-conscious like what you like if someone says I was I was so self-conscious, right? I was just I was

self-conscious, right? I was just I was just getting crushed by my my self-consciousness in that situation.

this kind of a unique experience of of inwardness and and kind of collapse into this feeling of self. Um, and it could I mean, just imagine, you know, you're

you're suddenly you're in in view of a thousand people and they're all looking at you and you've just said something stupid and you're embarrassed or you're like you're you've been publicly humiliated or, you know, you're you're

naked on stage, what whatever the situation, the unnatural situation is, so as to fully uh exploit your capacity for

following the gaze of others toward this presumed center of experience that is yourself and collapsing there. Right?

Like this is this is self-consciousness.

Um in my view that is that is taking this this um more basic sense of being located the sense of being a center and almost just like you know squeezing it

into a fist. It's like you have a it's like the difference between having a relaxed hand and have and and having a very tight fist right. So like it's like it's exploiting that same mapping,

right? Um and that is the very thing

right? Um and that is the very thing that we cut through when we have an insight into selflessness or non-duality. But there's sort of other

non-duality. But there's sort of other layers to it and and and mana or conceit is one where you're just kind of you have an idea of yourself

that you can that's it's not in this very center of your experience but it is somehow uh a an elaboration

of of your identity in your mind. And

we're constantly turning this thing over and entertaining it and invoking it and and being encumbered by it. And it is it

is a kind of a spell that gets broke. I

mean, when you when you when you cut through to emptiness, you're that's one of the that's one of the things you're liberating too. It's like that like like

liberating too. It's like that like like that that canceed at that level. So

anyway, that's a very long answer as is my want um to your your question, but I do think I think this notion of conceit is u is interesting and is rarely thought about in in English and

certainly not to mean anything like that.

>> You're singling out manas or mana mano rather mana is uh so it's interesting and actually the Buddha speaking transitioning from onions to flowers.

The Buddha actually there's a a brilliant suta which illustrates something I think very similar to what you're talking about and it's a monk named venerable Kemaka who's on his deathbed

>> and uh these monks ask do you identify with any of these five aggregates you know form feeling perception mental formations consciousness and he says no and then they say are you enlightened

and he says no and they say how is that if you don't identify basically he's given up sakaya self you the first one of the fedters that stream entry that you give up which is explicit

identification with the aggregates um of identity. But um he says just as uh one

identity. But um he says just as uh one couldn't could look at a flower and smell the flower but wouldn't be able to say the scent of that flower comes from

the stamon or the petals or the stem.

Even so though I don't identify with any of the aggregates the uh aroma of self still remains. And this is Ask Meana,

still remains. And this is Ask Meana, the final feder. Um,

>> and he became the only monk in all the sutas to become awakened from his own dharma talk.

>> So, oh yeah, that's a great story.

>> But but it speaks to this kind of spacious like much more subtle, you know, sight is a very locating thing.

You're right. And and that self-consciousness really crystallizes that. But even when that's gone,

that. But even when that's gone, something else remains which is much more subtle and hard to dispel. Um

>> Yeah. I really Yeah.

>> The next um Oh, sorry, Sam. Anything

else on that? We have more questions for you as well. Apologies.

>> No, I think um uh Vaden is also from a just a practice point of view worth uh

keeping in view. I mean just just kind of the the feeling tone of pleasant and unpleasant that is um being mindful of that can be very very useful right and

also and it's just a very it's a very short um step to equinimity if you can just decide

okay for this period I'm just not going to be pushed around by the pleasantness or unpleasantness of anything like you sort of notice that that channel in the

mind that's just like like that that is the thing that is in provoking a response in you to experience pretty much all the time and you can just sort of like at a higher level almost at a

conceptual level you can just decide all right I'm not going to just I'm not going to let the flipping of that switch matter for this period and all of a sudden you can have a just a very

spacious and aquamous kind of mindfulness Um, and it's it takes a while. I mean, Joseph often teaches it,

while. I mean, Joseph often teaches it, but you can you can sit in my experience, you can sit on retreats for a while before anyone tells you to to

really specifically be mindful of of the feeling tone of of uh experience specifically.

>> That's such a key link between uh you know past karma of va and uh craving and the future becoming. Mhm.

>> I think uh one of the next questions for us uh might be um >> how have you kept your center as you've become famous?

>> How have you kind of kept your sanity and how's your practice helped with that?

>> Well, I mean I would say that I'm you know I'm famous within a certain um kind of orbit which is

fairly specific. Right. Right. So it's

fairly specific. Right. Right. So it's

it's like it's not um I mean there are levels of fame obviously that I that I have not experienced and and um would be

very disruptive. I can just you know

very disruptive. I can just you know I've met some of these people and it's just incredibly disruptive of normal life in a way that I just don't experience. I'm like, I've got I've got

experience. I'm like, I've got I've got the level of fame which is which is almost entirely pleasant in that like it just it's um

for for the most part I can assume anonymity but then I can just occasionally get recognized and someone just and and virtually a hundred times out of a hundred all of those recognitions are pleasant. It's only

it's not that the people who hate you and recognize you don't come up and say anything and the people who love you come up and say, "Oh, you know, I love I love your work. I love your books. I

love your podcast. I love your app."

Whatever it is, they're just expressing appreciation for for your work. And um

so it sort of it sort of matters what you're famous for and it matters just how famous you are, right? And so like I'm I'm not at all I I certainly don't

want more of it. like I know like I like my level is is is totally fine. It's um

I think the perfect kind of fame would be to actually be unrecognizable but to still have all the doors open when you want them. I mean there there are

want them. I mean there there are certain writers who like I couldn't even pick them out of a lineup but their names are are known to almost everyone.

I mean, I think of I think yeah, John Lare is the example I always use of just the spy novelist who like literally >> I mean, it was true to say that at any moment he could have gotten the

president of the United States on the on the phone. You so beloved were his books

the phone. You so beloved were his books to popular audiences and yet I think probably he got recognized less than I do. uh because he's, you know, he just

do. uh because he's, you know, he just he was just not out there as a as a public figure in any way and and people aren't paying attention to the the

little photos on back on on on on the the backflap of a book very much. Um

so there just very different types of fame and there's there's certainly types of fame that are not worth wanting in my view for how disruptive they are and also how weird they are in terms of kind

of the the the illusions.

uh uh through which people are kind of the the delusional lens through which all the people who are admiring you or paying attention to you are are are are

looking at you right I get some of that but um there are types of fame where it's just this fantasmagoric

you know just Paul of mirrors effect it's just it's just illusion upon illusion and just it's it's there's just nothing but weirdness for it, you know.

And then then there are people who are just famous just because they're famous or famous just because they're beautiful or I mean just it's just and it's just a

a very weird kind of life to live. Um

and so um but for me it's just I mean it's part of the um the importance of of practice is to just

recognize that you don't have you not only do you not have to identify with any of it on some level you you you actually can't identify with any of it. I mean it is

just not it's not self right? Right. I

mean all like like my my digital self is not me. Like my digital reputation is not me. It's and it's all the thoughts about me that are occurring

in other people's minds are not me and I have no control over them really. Um as

much as I try to, you know, message into an increasingly no noisy information landscape and and make myself understood, I have no control over

whether that really succeeds or not. And

um so I I've kind of gradually got kind become more acquous with all of the consequences of misperception and and

you know lies told about my work or or misunderstandings of it. I mean there's both deliberate and and and inadvertent um misunderstandings that

are spread. Um, and I touch so many

are spread. Um, and I touch so many controversial topics in my in my podcast life and in my life as a writer that that it's um, you know, the mis misunderstandings can seem very

consequential, but all of that, you know, in the end has just seemed like, you know, more Mara uh, or Maya or

whichever, you know, analogy you like.

Um, and there's just a spell there that that can be broken. Like there's

fundamentally none of that can matter, right? And I

mean, so now the the bright line for me was actually just deleting my Twitter account, which was a huge move. move.

I'm I'm always embarrassed to acknowledge just what a an important move it was psychologically and and you

know spiritually to um just decide that that you know increasingly grotesque funhouse mirror was just fundamentally

not worth looking into at all. Right?

because it it it was it was continually advertising itself to me as this necessary channel of communication

and something that I just couldn't uh deny myself as a writer or somebody who who wanted to share ideas with the world. I had a, you know, at that point

world. I had a, you know, at that point something like 1.5 million people following me on Twitter and it just it just was the only social media channel I

personally used and I was in contact with lots of smart people there and influential people and and you know and there just it seemed to be the only

place to to respond in real time to consequential differences of opinion or current events or and I I was you know just to to to forsake all that would be

to silence my voice into that in that space. And

space. And it just took just finally recognized as a a certain moment that it was just like I was continually grasping this, you

know, burning coal with my hand and wondering why I was so uncomfortable.

And uh you know, so that's that's what I did. I just I just dropped dropped it.

did. I just I just dropped dropped it.

And um it was, you know, immensely useful to have to have dropped it.

Yeah, thank you. Um

I'm curious about um the moral landscape. Um so in your book, The Moral

landscape. Um so in your book, The Moral Landscape, you imagine I really I really enjoyed reading that. Um you imagine this hypothetical landscape where the peaks on the landscape uh correlate with

peaks of well-being and then the valleys are peaks of suffering and maybe the deepest valley is the worst possible misery for everybody all the time. And

I'm curious on that that map and you say there are many uh peaks of well-being.

um where does nibbana fit in there or where would this appreciation the zchin appreciation of rigpa and I think in it

from a terravada point of view I mean >> rigpa it just means you know it means wisdom or or clear seeing knowledge >> and so it's not necessarily the same

thing in a terraata view of that clear seeing into that non-dual perception and the realization of >> of nibbana Yeah. Which is the complete

ending of greed, anger and delusion and no more mental suffering based on uh no more unnecessary mental suffering. How

does that fit? How how does that fit on the the moral landscape both of those?

>> Yeah. Well, I think it's it is somewhat paradoxical. I mean, it's it's a little

paradoxical. I mean, it's it's a little bit like absolute and relative truth from a Buddhist perspective. Um I think I think that the the analogy of the

moral landscape it only makes sense in the context of relative, you know, conventional truth where

um certain experiences really are better than other experiences, right? like like

there's no there's no um equalizing of those experiences through anything like it's a dualistic picture of of you know the the various possibilities of

experience in this universe. Um

how non-duality and emptiness and wisdom relate to all of that is um I mean it's still an open question for me on some level. I mean, it's it's it's pretty

level. I mean, it's it's it's pretty clear to me that that um virtually all suffering

is the result of kind of dualistic fixation and and you know kind of mental obscurations and therefore cutting

through to to non-duality or wisdom or emptiness really does relieve that suffering and and kind of equalizes those experiences.

But whether that's true all the way down, I don't know, right? Like there's

only certain certain experiences I've had and and managed to equalize myself.

You know, like I don't know how much physical pain I could be in and be aimous with it by resting in rigba,

right? You know, it's it's it's um

right? You know, it's it's it's um you know, and and is is it a um is it really a capacity of the mind to be a quantumous with anything

if one is is truly undistracted from the the nature of awareness. Um

and not just a quantumous with it, but actually that there's just no there's no difference to be attached to, right?

This like non-clinging. Does

non-clinging really solve all the problems in this universe? Um, all the potential problems in this universe?

That's a that remains an open question to me. I I I I'm prepared to believe

to me. I I I I'm prepared to believe that the the answer is yes, but I just I I I can't say I know that from the inside. Um,

inside. Um, I mean, I know I know what it's like to be profoundly uncomfortable and then to recognize emptiness and to have it have

it in that moment of recognition be totally fine to have been profoundly uncomfortable and to and to have the physiology of discomfort still be

present and for, you know, to not to have to have my freedom not be really contingent upon anything changing, right? So yeah, I can be, you know, in a

right? So yeah, I can be, you know, in a lot of physical pain or profoundly nauseated or you, you know, you know, throwing up or whatever it is or have a high fever or and

um to be able to kind of stand free of all that as a you know, in my mindfulness and so that's that's wonderful. So, so,

so in that sense, wisdom and and emptiness can be viewed as just one of the greatest tools you could possibly have by which to navigate

the the moral landscape, right? It's

it's might not be the only tool you need. I mean, there's certain places on

need. I mean, there's certain places on the landscape. they can only be reached

the landscape. they can only be reached by by you know more knowledge or more technology or more you know you know better physiology

or you know greater health or whatever it is but um which is to say you know there's certain experiences you can't have unless you have the the kind of mind that can make those experiences

available but um to be to be able to be free of suffering in the midst of whatever experience you

find yourself, you know, that's a kind of superpower. Uh because suffering is

of superpower. Uh because suffering is more or less guaranteed to to arrive. Um

and to not cling to the impermanent thing you were growing attached to when it leaves is also a kind of superpower because everything

eventually leaves. Um, and so the kind

eventually leaves. Um, and so the kind of the the part of part of what it means to get to higher spot on the landscape

in relative terms is to be less clingy really, you know, I mean like you could I mean to to put this in a very basic way like you if you look at like what makes for a good relationship, you know,

or a good marriage. Well, being already happy is one of the best things to, you know, to bring to that relationship, right? I mean to enter into a

right? I mean to enter into a relationship uh imagining that your happiness is dependent upon that relationship being a specific way

is already to freight that relationship with unnecessary burden and and an irrational one and ultimately an unfulfillable one. Um and it's already

unfulfillable one. Um and it's already to become a le less competent partner in that relationship, right? to be a a less good spouse say. Um so so part of part

of getting to higher spots on the landscape is to to be taking you know the wisdom of the Buddha you know more

and more on board almost by definition.

But as to whether or not one can ultimately stand free of it all so as to recognize that there is no landscape or there is no high spot and low spot that

all of it was just you know high spots and low spots in a dream. Um

I mean I I certainly have intimations of that from my practice but I can't say I live from that place most of the time. I

I've had intense experiences where they're so intense that I couldn't have told you whether I was experiencing agony or ecstasy, right? And like and the

ecstasy, right? And like and the difference somehow just didn't even conceptually matter. I mean there just

conceptually matter. I mean there just is there just intensity, right? And you

know I was a quantumous with that intensity and they looked at one way as ecstasy at another way it's agony and

you know so so in that sense I've had experiences of of one taste you know at an extreme volume but

again those are those are transitory experiences right like what would it be like to live from that place what would it be like to be the sort of person who

could have, you know, awfulness turned up to 11 and have it stay that way for years.

And yet it would be true to say of that person, you know, he's as happy in that condition as in any other, right? that

that you know I you know I I'm I'm I'm open to believing that it's possible to have such a mind and I can kind of authenticate that in a peacemeal way and a transitory way for myself. But you

know what it would be like for that to just be the only kind of mind you you have uh that that would be um that would be an interesting change in my current

program.

Sam, I think we have you for about 10 more minutes. And

more minutes. And >> you can see that with rapid fire means almost nothing to me. So,

>> no, it's great. That was just a way to get you on for another 40 minutes.

>> So, fully do I abide in the non-conceptual state that when you say rapid fire, >> the length of my answers barely changes at all.

>> Like those underhanded free throws back and forth kind of thing. It's per it's perfect. Um, this one I'm really curious

perfect. Um, this one I'm really curious about though is what are the five uh most meaningful Buddhist religious objects you have in your house, whether it be a Buddha image or a picture of a

teacher, if any. Um, and if you know any of those are too intimate to talk about, then it's okay. But I'm curious if you have any pictures. I

>> have a lot.

>> Do you have a shrine, Sam? Well, I mean, I just have it's, you know, I've got lots of photos of my teachers and I've got lots of Buddhas and other, you know,

statues that that I love. Um,

uh, I mean, some are even in this room. This

I just happen to be recording in an office. Uh, but, uh, I could show you.

office. Uh, but, uh, I could show you.

Um, let me see if I have >> Please do and and tell us some of the photos as well, but we'd love to see >> Oh, actually, my favorite photo I brought. So, we we had to move because

brought. So, we we had to move because of the fire, but now I'm recording in in the office of the house that did not burn, but but nearly burned. Um, for

these these kinds of uh uh uh direct to camera recordings, I still record here.

Um, so I don't have all my stuff here, but um, no, I have I have photos of, you know, Yoshi, who I spoke about and and Tukan Ripache and um, other teachers. I

have uh a couple of great Buddhas that I've had for now um close to 40 years. Uh and you know which were given the full um

ceremonial treatment by Kenzie Ripache.

You know, Matthew Ricard, the the French monk who was who was working as um Kens Rimpich's translator. Um uh well I you

Rimpich's translator. Um uh well I you know we bought a bunch of Buddhas in in uh Catmandu and he gave them to Kenichce and he you know stuffed them with

incense and you know sacred sacredness whatever they stuff Buddhas with over there um and uh uh gave them back to us.

So yeah I've got just lots of Buddhas and that I have you know spent a lot of time with. So

time with. So >> Sam, how do you decompress after a three-hour conversation about consciousness?

uh >> or is it just >> I don't know that that that requires much decompression. I've got I have many

much decompression. I've got I have many other topics that that would get me more riled than than consciousness. Um

I mean I exercise. I go to the gym. I

mean that's something that that I do uh I try to do every day and you know knowing that I'll drop a day or two a week but I mean more or less that's a you know working out in some way is is a

daily practice. Um,

daily practice. Um, which I do I mean that's just like another example of kind of relative understanding that is not really found

within Buddhism but I just think is important and it just just adds a kind of a baseline level of well-being that is you know

like like you know the perfect retreat center you know if you if you're going to do three-month retreats or live as a monk would also have a great gym that people would work out at once a one hour a day. I mean, that would just that

a day. I mean, that would just that would just make for in my view a much better retreat than just letting your body kind of unravel for for 3 months,

right? So, I don't know what you guys do

right? So, I don't know what you guys do because you're doing this permanently, but um >> you know, doing exercise, you know, and you know, beyond yoga, I think is is a very good idea. So, that's that's the first thing that comes to mind that I do

to to truly unwind.

Sam, if we got Jordan Peterson to take temporary ordination and become a Buddhist, would you take temporary ordination as well here?

>> No, I don't think I can sign on the dotted line there because uh I mean depending on what what state of mind you get Jordan, it could be a pretty easy negotiation. You might get him quite

negotiation. You might get him quite cheaply or not. Um

>> uh >> have you ever thought of being How about that even briefly? Have you ever thought of being a monk Sam even for >> I you know I never really there was one

retreat with um Upandita Zada where um people were ordaining um that was kind of a standard thing on all the retreats with him. You could you could you could ordain just you know

just to kind of make that retreat more intense whether you were whether it was a life plan or not or you're just going to do it for a couple months. Um uh no I wasn't I wasn't tempted to do it in that

context. I mean, for me, I it just makes

context. I mean, for me, I it just makes more sense as kind of like a life decision as as uh people have made uh

like yourselves. Um

like yourselves. Um but um no, I mean I just never I mean for for what for me would make

the most sense is just to and this is a a kind of instruction that I heard Tukan give. He never gave this directly to me

give. He never gave this directly to me but um somebody I think it was Francisco Varela or somebody who had a very kind of big engaged life in the world who was

a student came to him and said um just just kind of expressing this this tension over the the dichotomy between being on retreat and being in the world and being on retreat and being in the

world and just wondering just how to practice in that way and and as you probably know from the the Zenin point of view I mean though they they do obviously honor the value of retreat.

It's much more there's much more emphasis on like you practicing for short sessions you know many times repeated you know throughout the day and kind of equalizing you know your daily

life with retreat and I think to Oregon's emphasis was um just you know start with you know start start

practicing two hours a day and then just gradually unwind your worldliness right and then then see the consequences of that, right? All right. It's much more

that, right? All right. It's much more let it come from the side of of just wanting less, you know, and and see what your mind is like when you actually when

the when you're finding the world less distractable and and >> and the and the and I mean to take a line from u there's a line in the in the

um Astravakra Gita which is a classic of of um advita teaching you know I think the line is desire nothing but your own awareness I mean what would what would it be like to desire nothing but your

own awareness and and what are the consequences of falling into that well um and that that you know that makes more sense I mean given the nature of my

life it would make more sense for me to sort of reverse engineer it and not change anything outwardly but just to

just to actually find awareness more and more captivating >> that uh shortcircuited the next uh 10 questions I wanted to ask you

want nothing more than my own awareness, but um Sam, thank you so much and maybe we could have a a future conversation because we really do have a lot more questions but >> Sure. Yeah. Yeah.

>> Sure. Yeah. Yeah.

>> Thank you.

>> Great to meet you both. Yeah. Thank you

for what you're doing and and thank you for the the inspiration you're giving me and everyone else in in the the choices you've made to to practice the way

you're doing. And um uh I love the fact

you're doing. And um uh I love the fact that uh um you guys are doing what you're doing and you're doing it in this public facing way and and uh you know I've seen some of some of the interviews

you've done and and uh your YouTube channel and it's um it's great. I I love the marriage of uh of ancient wisdom and and in your case monasticism and uh the

modern messaging. It's uh it's it's one

modern messaging. It's uh it's it's one of the good things. It's one it's one of the higher points on the the information landscape. Um uh given all the given all

landscape. Um uh given all the given all the low points, we should celebrate some of the high ones.

>> Sam, that that means a lot. And

honestly, we feel like you're approaching that same kind of intersection between um the mundane and the spiritual and kind of that that key nexus just from the opposite direction

or or rather that's not even the right way to put it, but um you're touching that same kind of intersection and really appreciate the messaging you're putting out in the world and how accessible you're making it for

everyone. So, thank you for taking

everyone. So, thank you for taking literally about 3 hours with us to talk, Sam. That was a real gift and we can do

Sam. That was a real gift and we can do it for >> it's a Buddhist.

>> It requires no decompression. So,

>> it's been great. Great to meet you both.

>> Sam spoke to us for nearly 3 hours and so we felt it prudent to divide the interview into two parts. The following

uh part will be found in the description or here.