Level Up Your Life In 2026 | Shaan Puri

The biggest risk you have is spending your life trying to do a really good job at the wrong thing.

>> Yeah.

>> Idiocrity is the real >> for any person with high potential cuz it'll sap you. Sap your will, sap your time, sap your resources, slap your energy, sap your belief in yourself.

>> This is Sean Puri. He sold his company to Amazon and Twitch for millions. And

he now runs one of the most successful business podcasts in the world with millions of listeners.

>> I know this cuz I spent 10 years doing things only for like, oo, if this worked it'd be amazing. The work has to be the win.

>> Yeah.

>> The win can't be some future hypothetical payoff. Because you enjoy

hypothetical payoff. Because you enjoy it, you do it all the time. Because you

do it all the time, you get really good at it. Because you get really good at

at it. Because you get really good at it, you do get the results, >> right?

>> That's the flywheel.

>> In this episode, we talk about what it takes to be successful, how to work smarter, not harder, and how to live a good life.

>> I think hard work is over. It's probably

maybe the fourth or fifth most important variable. Mhm.

variable. Mhm.

>> You know, I think the very first one is All right, today's a special episode because I'm the guest of today's episode. Normally, we have guests on and

episode. Normally, we have guests on and we ask them all about their life, their philosophies, how they work, how they did it, how they made it. But this time, I'm the guest because my former intern Walter uh created his own podcast. He

used to work for me when he was, I don't know, 18, 19, 20 years old. he was in college and he's gone on to create a cool podcast and he asked me to come on and so I went on one of the first episodes of his thing and I watched it and I was like this is actually a really

good interview and the reason why is because it's a lot of information about before we ever made any money. So, um,

you know, how I was thinking when I was in my early 20s, the ups, the downs, the indecisions, the uncertainty of do I go this way or this way, and how I thought about it, I think it's going to help a lot of people, specifically people who are, you know, you haven't quite made it

yet. Maybe you're young, maybe you just

yet. Maybe you're young, maybe you just haven't, it hasn't all clicked for you yet. I think there's some very useful

yet. I think there's some very useful philosophies in here. So, I hope you enjoy. This is an episode where I got

enjoy. This is an episode where I got interviewed by my former intern, Valter.

>> You had a great life um, seemingly. So,

why did you end up moving and what was that year of being strategically broke, right?

>> Yeah, strategically broke. That's what I called it. Uh,

called it. Uh, >> I think most people just call it unemployed. Uh, but you know, why not? I

unemployed. Uh, but you know, why not? I

I I put a luxury brand on it.

>> So, basically what happened is I graduate from college and I get a great job. I got a job paying me $120,000 a

job. I got a job paying me $120,000 a year to go work in a boring industry that I knew nothing about, didn't really care about. Mhm.

care about. Mhm.

>> kind of stumbled into a a a job that I thought was too good of money to pass up.

>> Yeah.

>> So, I go and I work for this guy and um sure enough, I'm like pretty bored actually. I'm like, "Oh, you know what?

actually. I'm like, "Oh, you know what?

Like, I can do this job, but I'm fairly bored." And at and it was a fork in the

bored." And at and it was a fork in the road because before I took that job, me and my friends had had this business idea.

>> Uh the idea was to create a sushi restaurant chain um called Sabi Sushi.

It was supposed to be the Chipotle of sushi. So, the way you have Subway for

sushi. So, the way you have Subway for sandwiches and Chipotle for burritos, the idea was we were going to do that for sushi. Okay. And we win this

for sushi. Okay. And we win this business plan competition. So, on one hand, we get $25,000 of prize money.

>> Mhm.

>> That the three of us are going to live on. Um or I could take this job for

on. Um or I could take this job for $120,000. So, I took the job. Within a

$120,000. So, I took the job. Within a

month, I'm like, "This is lame." I just looked at my life and I was like, "This is I made a lame choice."

>> Yeah. Um,

the good thing about me is I don't really make great decisions, but I make great reversals of decisions. Like once

I realize that I have made the wrong decision, I'm not one to linger in it, >> right?

>> Um, mostly because I just can't like tolerate it anymore. Like if I was dating somebody, I remember I was dating this girl and I realized like, all right, she ain't the one.

>> Um, I like just called her and broke up with her. Oh, you know, 10 minutes later

with her. Oh, you know, 10 minutes later after thinking about it, I was like, I what am I supposed to if I go hang out with her now, this will be unbearable now that I I know what I can't unsee what I've seen. I can't unknow what I

know. And so I'm pretty quick to cut

know. And so I'm pretty quick to cut things off when they're not working.

>> So I I quit my job after a month and a half and I tell him, "Hey, I'm going to go work on my sushi restaurant." He's

like, "What? Uh, okay." So I fly back and I meet up with my friends. And so we got 25 grand, three people. So we're

basically $8,000 each >> for a year >> for to live for a year. And um I was like I don't know that I don't know how much I don't even know how much life costs. I'm a college kid, right? When

costs. I'm a college kid, right? When

you're in college, everything's just provided for you, right? Like you swipe this thing and you get meals. Yeah.

Things just like happen.

>> Uh like my parents paid for the for the dorm or something. You pay up front. I

just didn't understand. Like you don't know what it's like to pay rent and bills and laundry and all that stuff.

>> So I um I like how I threw laundry in there. It's like a dollar$1 dollar 25 a

there. It's like a dollar$1 dollar 25 a week or something.

>> Um >> so I don't really know even how much 8,000 is, but I know it's low, right?

cuz all my friends got good jobs and nobody's making 8 grand a year. So I

decided, okay, I'm either going to every day wake up and feel worried and shitty about money >> or I'm going to commit and say I'm going to try to spend this year strategically

broke. So instead of being I looked at

broke. So instead of being I looked at my friends like investment bankers and they were money rich time poor.

>> Yeah.

>> And that's what I was when I had took that job. I was money rich time poor. So

that job. I was money rich time poor. So

I was like, okay, if I'm going to be money poor, I'm going to be I'm going to make a choice to be rich in other areas.

So it's like I need freedom and flexibility of my schedule. So I'm going to be time rich.

>> I'm going to be adventure rich. Like I'm

going to travel with my friends. We're

going to do fun stuff.

>> Yep.

>> I'm going to be learning rich. So it's

like, how do I learn? If I'm making 10 times less, 12 times less here, >> I got to be learning 12 times more than I would on the job there. Right now, the good news is that's not that hard of a bar. you don't learn that much on your

bar. you don't learn that much on your like entry- level jobs, you know, or if you learn you learn kind of the same task. You're not learning like a wide

task. You're not learning like a wide breath of stuff, right? Whereas with the business that we were doing, >> I'm learning about sushi and restaurant operations and how margins work and what a P&L is and I'm learning to pitch investors. Then we're negotiating a

investors. Then we're negotiating a lease and I'm figuring out what how how real estate works. I'm looking learning learning how I remember we went to the city like the city area and we were looking up liquor licenses and while I

was there I learned that if you have a liquor license your lease is on file. So

then I found the I found where we were negotiating. I found one place with a

negotiating. I found one place with a liquor license. I knew how much they

liquor license. I knew how much they were paying. So then I went back to the

were paying. So then I went back to the negotiation. I was like we're only going

negotiation. I was like we're only going to pay this. She's like

>> no way. We could never do that. Like

you're you are doing that in these four locations. So I know you could do that

locations. So I know you could do that for us. She was blown away. So we were

for us. She was blown away. So we were just learning all these little things, little uh little like core skills. So

sales, uh marketing, brand building, design, we were editing videos, we were doing whatever it took. We were

blogging, we were doing just random stuff, but high high action. Yeah.

>> And we just decided to have a [ __ ] ton of action and do DIY, just do it all ourselves, hiring, firing, learn as many lessons as I could. And so that year strategically broke was about learning

how little you need to live on like sleeping on air mattress. I put a photo so you you see this we can put one up there.

>> Yeah. Like like we didn't even have a garbage can just hammered a garbage bag onto the wall like with a nail. It was

like just hanging there. Uh you know we would just drink out of this Gatorade cooler that we had gotten for free from some gym. Um, you know, and then to make

some gym. Um, you know, and then to make some side money, I would like coach basketball at this like school for autistic children, and I would tutor kids and uh tutor college students nearby in stats.

>> And I was like, cool, I'm learning and then teaching them, and I'm making, you know, 2530 bucks an hour, but I only I I calculated like the minimum amount I need to earn

>> in order to have max freedom, >> which like now that I look back, that was actually a very smart thing to do, even though I was very dumb at the time. And uh Darmsh, who came on our

time. And uh Darmsh, who came on our podcast, a billionaire founder of HubSpot, he said the same thing about his first business. He goes,

>> I did all this random stuff in my first business, not knowing anything. Then in

my second business, I thought, well, >> I now I know the proper ways to do things. And he like screwed up that

things. And he like screwed up that second business. He's like, dude, the

second business. He's like, dude, the first business was more successful than the second. And he realized, he goes,

the second. And he realized, he goes, just because I was ignorant doesn't mean I was wrong, right?

>> So just because you don't know what you're doing, you're making it up as you go, doesn't mean you're always doesn't mean you're wrong on all of them, right?

And you might actually got a bunch of things right. And I think one thing I

things right. And I think one thing I got right was realizing that money was some sort of tool for freedom. And

instead of trying to just stack as many dollars in the bank account when you're young, the better thing to do is optimize for freedom, optimize for learning, optimize for adventure and fun.

>> Um, and just calculate the minimum amount of money you need to to be able to do that. And I'll still do that like with my companies. I'll calculate the minimum amount of funding we need just to get to that next like get to that thousand customers who love us

>> or um you know there's a lot of things I could be doing right now to make more money, but I don't do them because I'm not trying to optimize for that. I'm

saying how what's the amount I need where I feel really good, but I get the most time I can have with my kids and on my projects and working out and doing fun stuff I like to do.

>> Yeah.

>> And I think that principle has like really stuck with me.

I've talked before about the way that I know how to make money, about how to build a money-making skill, about how to leverage your time and energy. And the

team at HubSpot actually went through the video where I explained all that and turned it into a free downloadable cheat sheet on my four rules of how to make money. Now, this is not, you know, get

money. Now, this is not, you know, get rich quick advice. It's just core principles, foundational principles about building wealth, things that I wish I knew when I was, you know, just getting started. And so, if you want to

getting started. And so, if you want to download it, it's in the description below. It's totally free. You can go get

below. It's totally free. You can go get it. Thanks to the folks at HubSpot for

it. Thanks to the folks at HubSpot for doing the research, making this document, and making it available to all you guys. All right, back to this

you guys. All right, back to this episode.

>> I love that so much. I think you you you mentioned a point where like you reverse decisions very easily. I think that's a very hard thing to do. I think most people consider like that there are two-way doors and I think there actually aren't that many because of how hard

most people, myself included, have it to actually reverse that decision. Um, so

figuring that out early on that >> What do you mean by that? Like what's

have you found it hard to reverse decisions?

>> Yeah, definitely. I think so. like you

know if you commit to something or give me an example so uh I I think you know um >> uh moving moving to places right like so I I lived in San Francisco for a month a year ago um I know that I want to move

out of Europe I even know it now deep down inside but because I've got family or these are the reasons I tell myself right uh because I've got family at home uh my friends are there uh you know it's it's hard to get a visa things like this

that keep me sort of from from moving and now that I've got a place at at in the Netherlands you know I'm renting like you know it's it's all these reasons to not go that are really just excuses. Um,

excuses. Um, >> so I I think maybe I'm just speaking for myself here, but I think it's harder to to reverse those decisions.

>> Yeah.

>> Um, >> yeah, I think it is. I just wonder why.

Like, you know, in your case, >> I don't think you're >> this a therapy session.

>> Yeah. It doesn't seem like you're trying to reverse a decision. It seems like you have >> um Yeah, you've you I think you probably have made the decision where you want to be.

>> Um, but you probably have just like some fears holding you back. Like I don't know what the fears are, but like maybe it's fear of leaving family behind or how you're going to afford to live in a really expensive city or not know any. I

don't know what it is, but it's almost always fear. Like if you just ask why

always fear. Like if you just ask why often enough, you'll end up with like I'm afraid.

>> Um we try not to say we're afraid, but we are. Right. Adults have all these

we are. Right. Adults have all these code words for fear like stress.

>> Like you're allowed to you're allowed to say I'm stressed out.

>> Yeah.

>> Or that's really stressful, right?

>> But if you say I'm afraid, it's like you're growing your baby. What's going

on? But of course stress is just the code word for for fear. What do you what are you stressed out about? Things going

wrong, things not happening. Okay, then

what?

>> Yeah, >> then people won't like me. What? Then

what? You're just ultimately you're afraid. You're afraid of rejection.

afraid. You're afraid of rejection.

You're afraid of embarrassment. You're

afraid of humiliation. Afraid of

failure. It's one of those things is always underneath it.

>> And so >> um I think you know that fear is what holds people back more so than anything else. I think that's also why people

else. I think that's also why people don't reverse decisions, right? because

they're afraid of >> looking stupid or >> Yeah. looking stupid or like, you know,

>> Yeah. looking stupid or like, you know, what if I quit this job and the other thing's not better, >> right?

>> What if I break break up with this girl, but there's nobody else or the next person's not better, >> right? Or then I'm alone and that's

>> right? Or then I'm alone and that's going to suck and I don't want to feel that. I'd rather live in pain than than

that. I'd rather live in pain than than uh go go towards an unknown, you know, take a known pain versus an unknown.

>> Um I think people get trapped up in those too much.

>> I'm happy that that's not one of my like weaknesses. Yeah,

weaknesses. Yeah, >> I got my own, but that's not one of them for me at least.

>> No, I love that. Yeah, I think Tim Ferrris has said like people would rather live in uh discomfort than uncertainty. Um which I think is exactly

uncertainty. Um which I think is exactly what you just described. I I think >> and I'm the opposite by the way and there might be others which is just like >> discomfort sucks like oh no like what if this sucks like take me out of pain.

>> Yeah.

>> I'm not saying I'm tougher. I'm saying

I'm actually less tough. Like I have less tolerance for for pain. And so then I just make a decision. I all right maybe the uncertainty is less pain and I go there. but you're just honest about

go there. but you're just honest about it and that's hard. I I think what's really interesting as well is with you moving to San Francisco and this is something the more I talk to people like yourself who I think have made it because you know you set out in life

just like what do I want out of life and you're sort of just going for that like I love that. Um I think the the benefit of moving to a place like San Francisco is the proximity you get with other people and the blueprints you're seeing.

Like I think that's a big reason I want to do this, right? Like selfishly the reason I want to talk to you is like you seem to have it figured out in the way you want to and I just want to steal and learn from you. And I think you've mentioned that proximity is something

that can do that for you, right? It can

give you these blueprints. Um, so talk to me a little bit that about that. And

I also want to hear you talk about a story about one of your classmates. Uh,

you've said this before who's whose father, you know, had a great job but, you know, never saw saw his daughter.

Um, tell me about like how how can we learn from other people and, you know, under the idea of figuring out what you want to do in life, you know, like what do you actually what do you notice like what what what do you get energy from?

Like how do you pick up on that? Well, I

think what you're talking about is this phrase, proximity is power.

>> Yeah.

>> And I got this from Tony Robbins. I went

to a Tony Robbins event. He said that it clicked for me and he was talking about for himself. He's like, um,

for himself. He's like, um, >> we all heard these phrases like, you know, you are the average of the five people you spend the most time with.

>> Uh, very true. By the way, like you, let's say you hang out with a bunch of people who are super into working out.

>> Yeah.

>> It doesn't matter if you didn't work out before, >> you're going to end up working out, right? Like or you're not going to end

right? Like or you're not going to end up hanging out with them that much, right? It is very hard to resist that

right? It is very hard to resist that flow. It's like in the It's like in a a

flow. It's like in the It's like in a a biological cell osmosis. It's like the water will just cross the membrane.

It'll just go it'll flow in that direction.

>> Um so so I like that. I like pull, not push. Push is hard. Push takes energy. I

push. Push is hard. Push takes energy. I

got to motivate myself to go work out every day.

>> I got to I got to convince myself to go do this or I'm pulled into it because all the people I like and respect do this. We hang out all the time. This is

this. We hang out all the time. This is

what their normal schedule looks like.

It's almost easier for me to just do it versus like resist everything. So that

same principle is just true no matter what your pursuit is. Um when I wanted to get good at playing poker, I looked around and the people who got good at playing poker, they all lived in a house

with five other people who were equally obsessed with playing poker. Some were

better, some were a little worse, >> but they just immersed themselves amongst five people. Literally lived in a house with them. And then that's all they did. They eat, sleep, and breathe

they did. They eat, sleep, and breathe poker. They would talk poker over

poker. They would talk poker over dinner. They would review hands. They

dinner. They would review hands. They

would do all of that all the time.

>> And they got better way faster than people who were not. It's like you can learn Spanish >> on Dualingo, >> right?

>> You can learn Spanish um with a tutor >> or you can go move to, you know, Mexico and you can live there for 3 months.

Like which one's going to work better?

Total immersion.

>> Yeah.

>> And so proximity, getting near the thing you want >> is um is ironically an easier way to get what you want. It's like the the easiest decision you can make. It's like, you know, to move the needle the furthest in

your progress bar Yeah.

>> is just get around other people who already are doing the thing you want or have the thing you want or are also chasing the thing you want.

>> That's that principle. That's why I moved to San Francisco. I wanted to do startups. I was living in Australia at

startups. I was living in Australia at the time.

>> Not many startups.

>> There's not a lot of startups there. And

I asked the guy, I was like, "Hey, >> who's the most impressive founder you've met?" Like this guy. Like, cool. Can I

met?" Like this guy. Like, cool. Can I

meet him? No, he doesn't live here anymore. That happened three times. Hey,

anymore. That happened three times. Hey,

where where are all those guys? Where'd

they move to? They moved to San Francisco. Of course, that's where the

Francisco. Of course, that's where the people who are serious about startups go, right? Oh, what the hell am I doing

go, right? Oh, what the hell am I doing here?

>> Right?

>> And it feels weird to move. It's I got to break a lease. I got to I got I don't know anyone there. Where am I going to go? I have some unknowns, right? But

go? I have some unknowns, right? But

it's like, all right, well, >> am I serious about this or not? Yeah.

>> And like I decided to be serious about it. Like, yeah, I want to do that. Okay.

it. Like, yeah, I want to do that. Okay.

>> So, I literally changed my phone number >> to a uh like a San Francisco area code >> mentally commit.

>> And I started telling people, I'm moving to San Francisco. I had no plans yet. I

didn't know anything. I moved to San Francisco. I started job hunting only in

Francisco. I started job hunting only in San Francisco. I started looking at

San Francisco. I started looking at places, signed a lease, you know, I found a place to live and then I just flew here on a one-way ticket and I said, "This is where I want to be." Uh,

in order to make that happen. So, I

think that's the kind of proximity is power um idea >> principle. Yeah. I I think you touched

>> principle. Yeah. I I think you touched on something else as well is where you know if you want to go to San Francisco like you know your boss telling you like that's where all the serious people are who are interested in startups who actually want to do it and you telling

yourself like or asking yourself that question like am am I serious about this like I think that's very underrated and >> most people are not serious. This is

actually like a really important point.

Most people are not serious. I'll tell

you two stories around this.

>> Um at that Tony Robbins event they play this little game. They do these little like kind of like warm-ups before Tony comes out >> trying to get the crowd active. get you

vibe so that you're ready to go. So,

sometimes it's like they'll hit a beach ball around, people are bouncing it.

Sometimes it's music, whatever. So, they

have this guy come out and he's like, "We're going to play a game of uh Simon says and just just at the scene, we're in an arena. There's 10,000

people in this arena. It's like a basketball, an actual basketball arena.

He has full.

>> So, 10,000 people all going to play Simon says >> and he's Simon." So, he says, "Stand up, right?" and he's like, "The winner is

right?" and he's like, "The winner is going to come up on stage and get something special." All right, cool.

something special." All right, cool.

Winner out of 10,000 people. So, he

starts, does the first one, he's like, "All right, everybody, you know, stand up." Everybody stands up. He's like,

up." Everybody stands up. He's like,

"Did you're off." He's like, and so he's like, keeps going. And he's just eliminating like tons of people really quickly. And by, you know, within 10

quickly. And by, you know, within 10 minutes, it's down to like the last five people. And he's like, "Uh, come up on

people. And he's like, "Uh, come up on stage."

stage." and he says um he gets the winner and he's basically like all right the the final five and he's like you're the five out of 10,000 people who are at the end here.

>> Yeah.

>> And he and he's like did you think that you were going to win? And um they were like, you know, I didn't I their honest answer was like, you know, I didn't I didn't know if I was going to win, but I was definitely going to try. I really

wanted to win. I really wanted to win.

Yeah, I thought I was going to win. Um

no, I wouldn't have imagined it, but you know, here here I am. One one guy was like that, right? But four of them were like, "Yeah, I actually like I really wanted to win." And so I was like, "I'm going to try." And he goes, "Um, on one

hand it looked like" So he asked a question, then he goes to the audience, he goes, "Raise your hand if you actually believed you were going to win."

win." >> Almost nobody raises their hand. Like

maybe 50 people out of 10,000.

>> Yeah. Nothing.

>> And he goes, "You know, the five people on stage, it looks like you're competing with 10,000 people. You're not. You were

actually only competing with these 50.

you had a one in 10 chance of getting on stage, not a one in 10,000. And um I I remember that really stuck with me.

By the way, there's like loser YouTube comment type of people who are like, "But actually, forget it. It's the

story. It's the point. Shut up." The

point is a lot of life is like that.

Things seem really hard, really unlikely, really challenging, >> but most people are not serious. Most

people are not trying to seriously do anything. And if you are serious, you're

anything. And if you are serious, you're already in that final like, >> you know, five out of 50 type of type of format. And you got a one in 10 chance.

format. And you got a one in 10 chance.

And so like your odds are much better than you think.

>> I give you a second story that supports this. We've become friends with um Jimmy

this. We've become friends with um Jimmy Donaldson who's Mr. Beast on YouTube.

And Jimmy like when you're hanging out with him, he meets a lot of people. In

fact, just like at his headquarters at his studio, all these YouTubers just come like almost like a mecca, like a pilgrimage to just like honor him. They

just come just to see him, right? and

they come and they and they're always Jimmy, you know, like, hey, you got a few minutes. I just love to talk to you

few minutes. I just love to talk to you about my channel. Just if you can give me any advice how to grow my channel, any advice on how I could be successful YouTube. Please, Jimmy, please tell me

YouTube. Please, Jimmy, please tell me how I could be successful on YouTube.

>> And it's so funny because first of all, all of his videos are public. Anything

in secret, right? So, all everything he's doing is visible for you. Every

single video is public.

>> Uh, but okay, beyond that. Um, and by the way, that's from the beginning of time. Like, you can see all of his

time. Like, you can see all of his videos. Yeah. 10 years ago, you can see

videos. Yeah. 10 years ago, you can see his videos. Um, and so we said, 'Well,

his videos. Um, and so we said, 'Well, and he says the same thing to him every time. And he goes, "Here's what you

time. And he goes, "Here's what you want. You want to be you want to win?"

want. You want to be you want to win?"

"Yeah." "You want to be successful on YouTube?" "Yeah, absolutely." "Okay,

YouTube?" "Yeah, absolutely." "Okay,

here's what you're going to do. You're

going to make a hundred videos." They're

like, "100 videos?" "Yeah, you're going to make a 100 videos." One at a time, right? Make a video. Then when you make

right? Make a video. Then when you make the next video, pick one thing you're going to do better. A better intro, >> a better caption, a better outro, a better music, better pacing, better

editing, better whatever. um one thing every time for 100 videos. Just do that.

>> And when you're done with the hundred, come talk to me. I'm gonna tell you exactly what you need to do next. Like,

okay, great. I'm like, Jimmy, does anybody ever come back to you? What do

you tell them when they come back? He's

like, they never come back. What do you mean? He's like, well, he's like,

mean? He's like, well, he's like, nobody's willing to do 100 videos, >> right?

>> They all want to be Mr. Beast.

>> They don't want to.

>> They don't want to be Jimmy, who started doing videos when he was 12. Yeah.

>> And at 13, nobody watched. 14, nobody

watched. 15, nobody watched. 15, nobody

watched. 16, is anyone ever going to watch? 17, still nobody watching. 18, oh

watch? 17, still nobody watching. 18, oh

my god, a couple people watch. 19,

finally, somebody watched. Seven years

through hell, right? Like, so it's like nobody's willing to do even a 100red videos, let alone seven years. And he's

like, and by the way, for the very few people, the kind of that 1% of people who are serious and do it. He's like, by the time they get to 100, they don't need me, dude. They're flying. They

forgot all about me. they they're so full of stuff to do because they have so much momentum because they made 100 videos and they tried to make one thing better every single time. That idea,

that rule of 100, >> it applies to basically any pursuit, not just YouTube.

>> And the funny thing is nobody's serious.

So, nobody does it. And so, like, you know, you just all you have to like if you just decide I'm serious about this, I will be serious. I'm a serious person. Not like

serious. I'm a serious person. Not like

not like other people how they're not going to approach this, they're not going to take this very simple idea seriously.

>> Um, you're already ahead of the game.

Yeah, you're only competing with those 50 people. So, pull from examples from

50 people. So, pull from examples from how you did this, right? So, I think proximity is one thing where if you're just seeing more lifestyles or activities that people are doing in and around the subject that you find interesting, you'll be able to follow

more blueprints and sort of figure out what you're actually going to do 100 times over. But in in someone's like

times over. But in in someone's like daily regular life, like what things can people do or what things did you do to sort of figure out how can I lean more into my inner nerd?

>> Well, one thing is other people are very good at spotting it before you are. Uh I

remember Naval who's like one of my favorite people to learn from, follow, whatever. He says this great story. He's

whatever. He says this great story. He's

like, um when I was a kid, I wanted to be a physicist. I thought like >> in the apex of like awesome people, physicists were on top. Physicists,

scientists inventors.

>> And he's like, "That's what I'm going to be." And he was telling everybody he's

be." And he was telling everybody he's going to be that. And his mom was like, "Nah, you're going to be a business person." He's like, "What? What are you

person." He's like, "What? What are you talking about? Like business is cool,

talking about? Like business is cool, but like I want to be a physicist."

She's like, "No, you're naturally a business guy." And he's like, "What? I

business guy." And he's like, "What? I

never talked about business. Like, I

never told you that. What do you mean?"

And she goes, "Well, you're always talking about it just you never say, "I want to be a business guy." But you're always thinking about business. He's

like, "When you used to walk by that restaurant, you would always point out things that they're doing that they should be doing to like make more revenue or be more profitable or like how they should change their menu.

You're always doing that. You're always

trying to figure out how to fix a business or, how to improve a business.

It like comes very naturally to you."

And she's like, "Does physics come naturally to you?" And he's like, he's like, "No." He's like, "It's like

like, "No." He's like, "It's like brutal. Like, I want it because I I

brutal. Like, I want it because I I think they're so cool." Yeah.

>> But he wasn't naturally as inclined. And

then when he So, he realized that and he's like leaned into he leaned into business more. So, I've seen this many

business more. So, I've seen this many many times where >> um other if you just talk to other people who know you well, you know, you can ask him a couple of questions that I think are good at sussing this out. One

such question is um what's my superpower? like what do you seek that

superpower? like what do you seek that comes easy to me naturally to me that is harder for other people >> is there anything like that that that you've seen >> podcasting >> yeah so like you know telling stories podcasting whatever it is

>> uh another thing that you might do is um you might say where is it that um you might ask yourself where do I spend time doing things that for me feel fun but to

others would feel like a grind so it's play to you work to others >> for me it's like I'll be up at 11 12 at night and I'll be Google searching and randomly reading like today I was I literally before we got here I was

reading the annual report from the state of Nevada about the um the the revenues and and expenses of the casinos on the Las Vegas strip for 2024 compared to 2023.

>> Yeah.

>> Like >> who's doing that for fun?

>> Yeah, nobody's doing that for fun. I was

doing it for fun. I was really curious.

I was like are we in a recession? I

wonder there's like this thing where the the the Vegas strippers know first. Do

they know first? Well, I should probably be able to check Vegas revenues uh last year versus this year and that might be a leading indicator. Oh, wow. This is

cool. This is a PDF. Download a PDF, searching through the things, making my notes for what, dude? Nobody asked me the question, you know, like the teacher didn't call on me. This wasn't my my pro my assigned assignment. But I'd always

been like that. I always been doing things like that. And

>> before I didn't really notice that that was a thing. I didn't really see how that could be special or useful. Just

seemed like I don't know. I just go on these random little >> business rabbit hole, these little detours. But then when I did the podcast

detours. But then when I did the podcast and the podcast is us shooting the [ __ ] about business, suddenly I had this like giant library in my head of little factoids and stories and and nuggets and

this knowledge that was very very useful on the podcast. So I found a fit for it uh later.

>> And so I think other people are good mirrors. I think looking at what you do

mirrors. I think looking at what you do in your 5 to9 like you have your 9 to5 that's your job. What's your 5 to9 what do you do? And specifically in your 5 to9 what do you do beyond what's

rational?

a normal person.

>> It's got to either look like a work or a grind to other people or it's got to look like oh like yeah I like video games too but you're like practicing your aim on this aim simulation for 4

hours a day like >> that's different that's you know now you're in this other territory or like you're not just like you know for example I used to play this game NBA 2K.

You played two games?

>> Of course >> I never played the I never actually played the games. I just went to the franchise mode and I started simulating.

I'm the GM and I'm scouting players and I'm building this franchise and like I was literally like this since I was a kid. Sixth grade, fifth grade I was

kid. Sixth grade, fifth grade I was doing this >> and it's like well guess what that is?

That's being a manager. Like I was literally like practicing being a CEO.

It's like I'm like upping the concessions prices and I'm scouting these like guys. I'm making these trades and I'm I got more joy out of the management of the franchise than playing the game. So, like, you know, you start

the game. So, like, you know, you start to notice these oddities about yourself, but instead of pointing at them or hiding them or trying to like fix them because they're broken, saying, "Oh, interesting." Like, uh, "What superpower

interesting." Like, uh, "What superpower does that give me? Where does that let me thrive? What in what scenario would

me thrive? What in what scenario would this be extremely useful or valuable?"

Yeah. You know,

>> Yeah. Well, it turns out the one you're in right now.

>> I'll give you another example. My wife.

Yeah. My wife's kind of OCD and arts and craftsy since a kid. Loved arts and crafts. Also OCD. Drives me nuts. Like

crafts. Also OCD. Drives me nuts. Like

that wire is out and crooked. like she

needs to she can't do this podcast. She

has to get up and go fix that wire, right? So, she um she started like for

right? So, she um she started like for herself, she started like kind of like as a just like some boredom girly thing to do, like bedazzling her, you know, phone when she was in high school or whatever.

>> And she but she got really good at it, right? She like leaned in. She didn't

right? She like leaned in. She didn't

like shy away from it. She got curious about it. She started buying Sarasi

about it. She started buying Sarasi crystals. She started trying to arrange

crystals. She started trying to arrange them perfectly. She started seeing if

them perfectly. She started seeing if other people do this, how she could make a better design. Suddenly, celebrities

started hitting her up when she's in college. She's a freshman in college and

college. She's a freshman in college and celebrities are hitting her up asking for them to make custom things for their parties in Hollywood and whatever. And

she's making thousands of dollars a month as a college student.

>> That wasn't an option if you had the thing, right? That's the that's her

thing, right? That's the that's her pushed out. Yeah.

pushed out. Yeah.

>> Right. So, that is um it didn't even seem like a thing. In fact, it seemed like this like kind of useless waste of time, but for her, it wasn't. It looked

like a grind to others, but it was fun for her. So, she found a way to make

for her. So, she found a way to make that useful over time. That's an amazing story. I love that so much. I think that

story. I love that so much. I think that kind of goes back to what you mentioned earlier on in terms of just leaning into your own curiosities. And I I think I think you said this somewhere where the only voice that actually matters is the

one inside your head. And talk talk to me a little bit about how do you block that out when you know you're going through life, you know, you have this sushi restaurant, you're you're picking things up, you know, you're working at this job in Australia before that. How

do you pick things up as you're going along when you're super unclear on that aspect? And you know, how how do you

aspect? And you know, how how do you sort of focus on that inner inner voice and really be true to yourself? Like

>> I think that takes time. I think I don't think most people are at least took me time.

>> I don't think most people could do that right away.

>> Yeah.

>> You know, you got to ask yourself a question.

>> Who's the most important voice in my life? Is it my mom? Is it my teachers?

life? Is it my mom? Is it my teachers?

Is it my boss? Is it

>> society? Is it the media?

>> Um whose voice do I care about? Who

who's number one?

>> Yeah. And in reality, the voice that is most, you know, shaping you is the little voice in your head, the one nobody else can hear.

>> It is the director of your life's movie.

It's the one that tells you where to stand, what to say, what to do next, how to react in this situation. That's what

the director does. And you have a little director in your in your head right now.

And so once you realize that, you say, "Okay, I want to like I want Spielberg up there, right? Like I want Scorsese. I

want Tarantino. Like I want I want this to be a great movie. Um you know like and what type of movie is this going to be like a tragedy? Is this going to be a thriller? Is this going to be like a

thriller? Is this going to be like a romantic comedy? Like what what kind of

romantic comedy? Like what what kind of movie am I going to try to have right now?

>> And how do I tune that voice in my head?

>> So that's what I meant by that that comment is and that's I think what what works when you go internal is like you you decide that look my opinion of myself matters more than anyone else's opinion of me. Easier said than done for

sure.

>> But if it's true, that's something that's worth that's a weak muscle that's worth working on, you know. Um, do I believe that the most valuable opinion in my life is my own opinion? All right.

Well, what what is my opinion on? What

do I admire? What do I think is not cool? Um,

cool? Um, >> you know, h how do I develop that taste for how I want to be? And then practice doing it. And like notice those moments

doing it. And like notice those moments where other voices say X, but my voice says Y. I'm going to go with Y. I'm

says Y. I'm going to go with Y. I'm

going to do it here. It might be uncomfortable, but I'm going to do it.

And that's me getting stronger. That's

me becoming that dude for whom that is the default. And like, you know, you

the default. And like, you know, you just do that over a number of years.

>> Did do you remember anything specifically like any moments in time?

There was a lot of resistance in what that inner voice was saying and what the outside voices were telling you.

>> Um, definitely quitting to go to a sushi restaurant thing. I remember that was

restaurant thing. I remember that was >> Were your parents not on board with that or were you was I mean all your friends are getting high paying jobs like >> I mean everybody thought it was like a little bit silly but you know they don't they don't really care. It's not their

life. So they're like, "Whatever. Yeah,

life. So they're like, "Whatever. Yeah,

do it." Huh? You know, like she's a friend at a party like, "Yeah, push your foot. Put your foot in there." Like, you

foot. Put your foot in there." Like, you know, whatever. You just want to see

know, whatever. You just want to see somebody like, you know, wreck themselves.

>> You want their own entertainment.

>> Of the people who cared, like my parents, my dad, to his credit, was very, um, it was a great dad moment. He

was like, uh, I think you should do it.

I'm like, you think the sushi thing is a good idea? He's like, I think it's a

good idea? He's like, I think it's a terrible idea. Why do you think I should

terrible idea. Why do you think I should do it? He goes, because look at you.

do it? He goes, because look at you.

Like, you're so switched on now. Yeah.

And >> he's like, "You know, I've seen you your whole life. You never used to be this

whole life. You never used to be this way. You never used to just wake up. You

way. You never used to just wake up. You

never used to just like have this like this drive, this motivation, this like burst of energy. Like look at you.

You're like working all the time now.

You used to be lazy. You know, you're really excited about this. I can see you developing your speaking skills. Like I

can see you developing skills. I can see you like really switched on. You seem

energized." Like,

>> and he had this great phrase. He goes,

"Um, a lot of times in life, we want to have the right direction first.

>> Wouldn't it be nice if we knew exactly which way to go, but life is not like that? It's like you're standing on a

that? It's like you're standing on a beach. It's foggy outside. You want to

beach. It's foggy outside. You want to get to paradise, but you don't know where it is. You can't see. You can't

see through the fog." So, he's like, "You have two options. Either you just stand there and wait for the fog to magically clear, and then suddenly you could see, is paradise that way or that

way?" Or you take your little crappy

way?" Or you take your little crappy boat and you start paddling and as you get out there, you might see it. You

might see it's over. Oh, it's not this way. It's actually that way. It's like,

way. It's actually that way. It's like,

and guess what? Once you're in motion, it's a lot easier to change direction.

>> Yeah.

>> Like people think it's really hard to change direction. No, you have momentum.

change direction. No, you have momentum.

You can actually shift course very easily if you see a better place to go.

>> So he said, um, >> you know, sometimes life is about motion, not direction. And he goes, I don't think this is the right direction, per se. Like I don't think you're going

per se. Like I don't think you're going to create the next Chipotle. I don't

think you should be going into the restaurant industry, >> but I can see so much motion that I'm sure you'll figure out the direction like >> at some point.

>> At some point, >> it's better off than standing down.

>> He was totally right. That was like a a really wise thing for him to do.

>> Yeah, that's a beautiful phrase. I think

most people probably um I think I think actually in life the scariest thing is standing there and then realizing like 80 90 years later like [ __ ] I didn't move at all.

>> Yeah. Yeah. I'm just I I just sat down actually and like you know I just stayed here.

>> Yeah. Just enjoyed the sand.

>> Yeah.

>> Yeah. um when you when you were selling your company when you when you were selling Bibo was that like you know when you that was sort of a little bit of a change not a big change in direction right how did you go about in that

process I imagine that would be quite hard you know you're you're making a pretty big decision to try and sell this company you you know maybe you realize you don't want to be doing this specific project anymore sort of when you're

working on a project and you're starting to feel like okay it's time to change direction to to get to that path like What was that process like for you and what sort of things happened to to make you come to that realization?

>> Well, I was lucky. I have a very good friend, my buddy Sulie. He uh we were out at a casino down here in South San Francisco. You go to this like Chinese

Francisco. You go to this like Chinese casino basically. It's like a bunch of

casino basically. It's like a bunch of like degenerate Asian playing like Py or something and then and then there was us and we're playing and then you're like whatever this we're done. We go to the

like buffet area, whatever. We're just

sitting at this buffet at like 1:00 a.m.

and he'd said to me something. He was

like "Um he just said like I forgot how we got there, but he goes, "I don't get what you're doing."

>> Mhm.

>> I was like, "What do you mean?" Like

>> it's pretty clear.

>> He's my very good friend. Like he knows you know exactly what I'm doing. I talk

about this all the time. He's like, "No, I just I just don't get it." I'm like, "What do you mean?" He's like, "I still get the whole thing."

>> And I was like, "What? What?" Like, you know, not just like at one part of our strategy, like the whole thing. And on

the surface, what I had looked really great, >> which is kind of like one of those like inner voice versus external perception.

We had probably the nicest office in San Francisco because my main funer, like the guy who basically was funding the lab, was like a billionaire. So, we had like the nicest office in San Francisco.

We had a private chef. We had a masseuse on Fridays. We had a bar built into the

on Fridays. We had a bar built into the office. We had everything that you would

office. We had everything that you would want. It was designed by this guy, Ken

want. It was designed by this guy, Ken Folk, who's like this fancy guy. So, if

you walked in, you'd be like, "Wow, these guys are super successful. This is

going great. Who wouldn't want to work here? It's paradise. All my co-workers

here? It's paradise. All my co-workers were super smart. So, I had a great team, great office, great team. Well,

you must be constrained or not letting your, you know, your wings fly. No, no.

Total freedom. Well, you must not have the resources, the funding. You're

you're strapped, right? No, no, no.

Blank check. Fund as much as you want.

What? What's the problem? And so, I'm like, what do you mean you don't get it?

I have paradise. What don't you get? And

he's like, "Well, like you've been there for 6 years. You and your the project you're working on right now, it just seems like it's not like going to hit in the way you want it to hit. It's also

not going to fail where you would be like this is an obvious failure. It's

like okay."

>> And he's like, "I just don't get why you're working on something that's okay." And so we um as we started

okay." And so we um as we started talking, he was basically just like, you know, I think you you came into this wanting one thing and now you're so far in, you're doing this other thing and I don't think you would be doing that

thing had you not already be doing it.

>> So what do you mean? He said, uh in physics is this concept of inertia, like the object in motion will stay in motion unless there's a force to resist it.

>> He was that force that night >> and I had just been this object in motion staying in motion. And he goes, "Inia's a [ __ ] dude. like you know you will keep doing it cuz you're already

doing it. Thought experiment.

doing it. Thought experiment.

If the lab closed tomorrow, would you is this business idea so good that you would tomorrow pick up the phone, call these same people you're working with and say, "Let's do this same thing. Of

course, we're going to keep doing this.

This is the best thing we could be doing. It's perfect for us. It's the

doing. It's perfect for us. It's the

juiciest opportunity. I don't want to be doing anything else."

>> And I was like, "No way."

>> Right? I I would call the same people.

like I like the people, but we would definitely not work on this.

>> Yeah.

>> So then why are you doing it?

>> Cuz you're already doing it. It's like a this is silly, right? And so um and you know this is not a perfect test like you know you might not always be like this is it's not saying this is the best

opportunity out of all the trillions of possible things I could be doing in my life. That's a little overwhelming.

life. That's a little overwhelming.

>> But if you know like no I would probably say no and I'd probably try to find something else. Then you know you're

something else. Then you know you're doing the wrong thing, right?

>> And so I realized I was doing the wrong thing. So, how did we get to sell the

thing. So, how did we get to sell the company? So, the next day, I told you

company? So, the next day, I told you I'm quick at cutting things off. Next

day, I go and I talked to my co-founder.

I say, >> I think we should call it. I was like, I think we should try to sell the company, and if we can't sell it, I think we should end the company. He's like, the company? What are you talking about? I'm

company? What are you talking about? I'm

like, I just think we should be doing something else. What? What? I don't

something else. What? What? I don't

know. Something else. I need to shake it up. I was like, I didn't know anything

up. I was like, I didn't know anything more. I just knew I needed to shake it

more. I just knew I needed to shake it up. Long time had gone by, six years. I

up. Long time had gone by, six years. I

gave it like a long run. We had done 10 different products. Some of them were

different products. Some of them were doing good, some were doing bad. But

like I had like a lot of time trying this model with these people in this space.

>> And I told him, I said, "This idea that we're doing, we're only here because we just pivoted, pivoted, pivoted. I don't

think this is the idea I would do tomorrow if I wasn't already doing it, >> right?

>> So I don't feel right about it. And I

don't want to just pivot again for the 11th time. Like I'd rather just get a

11th time. Like I'd rather just get a clean slate."

clean slate." >> I went to the investor and I said, "Hey, give me uh 45 days to try to sell this company." Sorry, I said, "Give me 30

company." Sorry, I said, "Give me 30 days to try to sell this company." um

or you could just like have it. I'll

walk away. You could take all my equity.

You could decide what you want to do with it. He's like, "Okay." Um and then

with it. He's like, "Okay." Um and then we ended up selling the company 45 days later, which was like absurd. Like you

don't you don't sell you don't have time.

>> Well, there was still diligence afterwards, but like 45 days to a signed definitive agreement um is pretty pretty fast. But

>> kind of once I had that that intention, you know, I really went for it. I think

that's, you know, I think Steve Jobs famously asks himself every day, like looks himself in the mirror and says, "Do I want to, if this was my last day, would I still be doing it? If there's

enough days in a row where he said no, like he'd make a change." It's sort of similar to the question Sulie asked you like, "What, you know, what are you doing?"

doing?" >> Yeah. Yeah. What would you be doing this

>> Yeah. Yeah. What would you be doing this if you weren't already doing this? I

think that's just like a very simple way of looking at it.

>> You know, and I think if that answer is not a I think it should be a hell yes as this the ideal. And maybe you say maybe you're just a couple tweaks away like yeah it would be a hell yes but I hate

my commute or it would be a hell yes but I want to stretch my wings and start growing in this other way too right that's fine >> those are tweaks >> well whatever the answer is it's the answer but you know I think asking the

question is the more important thing you know Elon has this thing about like how do you do it dude how do you what's your engineering process how do you build such rockets and electric cars and giant

super GPU clusters blah blah blah and one of his core principles is the biggest waste of time is doing something well that needn't have been done at all.

And I think that's true for everybody's life. Like the biggest risk you have is

life. Like the biggest risk you have is spending your life trying to do a really good job at the wrong thing.

>> Yeah.

>> Thing you don't even want to be doing or you shouldn't be doing in the first place.

>> Yeah. That's that's that sort of brings me to this thing where, you know, being okay or having this place in life, right, where you've got this business where it's it's okay. It's kind kind of like not where you'd want it to be, but it's it's not the end of the world. Like

that's potentially more dangerous than anything else. Like I talked to Ben

anything else. Like I talked to Ben Wilson about this. You know, you'd rather blame out than burn out. You

would rather go all in, go for the thing you really want to do than than burning out. Um,

out. Um, >> how did you, you know, you've talked a little bit about >> mediocrity is the real risk for any person with high potential.

>> Failure is not the risk. The risk is you get stuck in something that's just okay for too long because it'll sap you, sap your will, sap your time, sap your resources, slap your energy, sap your

belief in yourself over time. failing h

it's a bit of a quick and pain painful uh thing but it's over and you bounce back it's and it keeps your most precious asset your time still at your disposal. It's the thing that's just

disposal. It's the thing that's just okay that is going to take all your time away. Yeah.

away. Yeah.

>> You don't want that.

>> Yeah. No, it's again to your point like for inertia like you know usually the thing that is mediocre you're in it just because you're doing it.

>> Yeah. Yeah. Or put differently, some I forgot who said this, some some whatever someone said uh for anybody who's sufficiently smart, the biggest cost is opportunity cost, >> right?

>> So once you know that that your biggest cost is not your taxes or your expenses, it's your opportunity cost. Um then you got to think about that.

>> Yeah. Yeah. When you're when you're choosing to do a project now, you know, you're optimizing it for a lot of lot more different things than earlier on.

What sort of trade-offs to your point like opportunity cost? Like what do you look at now? Um and yeah, >> I have a very simple rule now. Um am I doing this for a result or am I doing

this because I like doing it.

>> So I no longer will do something for an ex for some future payoff.

>> Mh.

>> Not saying I don't want to make money in the future or that those things can't happen. It's that

happen. It's that >> am I doing it am I suffering today for some better future or am I doing today where the the reward is doing reward is doing the thing. Yeah. Right. The work

has to be the win. Yeah.

>> The win can't be some future future hypothetical payoff of some work that I wouldn't have otherwise wanted to do.

>> Yeah.

>> Because if you do it that way, then you win, right? You for sure win by doing it

win, right? You for sure win by doing it and you might win double, triple, 10x from some result.

>> But if you do it the other way where you're just doing things opportunistically, and I know this because I spent 10 years doing things only for like if this worked it'd be amazing. Mhm.

amazing. Mhm.

>> But then when it doesn't work, which most of the time things don't work, it's like, damn, that's kind of a >> not a waste totally, but like >> but it feels like that >> I wasn't, you know, I was basically not

enjoying myself uh to the extent that I could have been. Again, the opportunity cost, the opportunity cost, I could have just been working on something >> that the work itself was super rewarding.

>> The act of doing it was was the reward and not the future payoff. Do you think if you had focused on that earlier on, you still would have gotten to the point where you are now where like say you're you're you know you're doing the sushi restaurant and it ends up not working

out, but then you pick something else um consistently each time where like I don't care what anyone else thinks like this just a project I'm doing cuz it seems curious, but it might not make any money or things like that. Do you still think you'd be in this position or >> Yeah, I think I'd be further ahead.

>> Yeah.

>> Yeah, >> that's awesome. Just cuz you would have figured out >> you never know, right? It's impossible

to say. you don't you don't have the the you can't run the AB test on life, >> but uh >> maybe for a good maybe that's the way it's supposed to be.

>> Yeah, I just I mean I think I still would be the guy I am today. I think I would just be uh I think I would have found the things that are more uh enjoyable to me. Um which would have made it's a very it's a flywheel, right?

>> Because you enjoy it, you do it all the time. Because you do it all the time,

time. Because you do it all the time, you get really good at it. Because you

get really good at it, you do get the results, >> right?

>> That's the flywheel. So, you know, but if you don't really enjoy the thing, then you only work on it to the extent that you have the motivation or willpower to do it or energy that you force yourself to do it, >> then you only get so good at it. And

because you're only so so good at it, >> um, you know, you get you get a so so result.

>> Yeah.

>> There's no flywheel.

>> There's no flywheel.

>> No, I'm a believer in that flywheel. And

I think if I just started doing that when I was, you know, I did it at points of time, not not like I did it none. I

didn't do it zero, but >> if I had been all in on that, I think it would have been Yeah. further ahead.

>> Yeah. You you've written a blog about not working hard, like that's actually working hard is overrated. Do you think applying that principle back I know I know we can't AB test life, but like just looking back, do you think if you

had applied that principle, you would have found those things quicker >> um >> like the things that were you pushed out?

>> I think there's a few different ideas.

Yeah, working hard is overrated. That

doesn't mean it's useless, >> right?

>> All right. Okay. It's a big difference.

So overrated means when successful people talk and like what's the key?

Like hard work. Why do they say that?

>> Sounds good.

>> Sounds good. It also sounds like we all had an equal shot. I just worked harder, >> right? It's a decision that you made.

>> right? It's a decision that you made.

They Yeah, my dad was a billionaire, but like it was hard work that got me there, right? Like you can you can use hard

right? Like you can you can use hard work. Gives you a lot of air cover.

work. Gives you a lot of air cover.

Yeah. It's the can't can't disagree. Who

can disagree with that?

>> Yeah.

>> Um me basically. I'm the only guy disagrees with that. So So I think hard work is overrated. probably maybe the fourth or fifth most important variable.

>> You know, I think the very first one is project selection and choosing what you >> what you work on is far more important than how hard you work. I know this because I've worked in the restaurant industry.

>> Picking the restaurant industry. It

doesn't matter how hard you work. You're

quite limited in in like you know your your results or your outcomes and and what your life is going to be like, >> right?

>> Um >> so what you work on matters a lot. Who

you work with matters a ton. Mhm.

>> Um then I would say there's like you know sort of the third, fourth, fifth, right? Timing, luck. There's other other

right? Timing, luck. There's other other variables of which hard work is one of those. So maybe it's three, maybe it's

those. So maybe it's three, maybe it's four, maybe it's five.

>> Um that's what I've seen.

>> Yeah, that's awesome. I

>> I do think, by the way, the one thing hard work's good at is it's good at developing skill, >> right?

>> And it's good about being serious. So

like when you're in your 20s, it's easy to um throw hours at the problem. You

don't have good judgment, >> so whatever. Spend more time.

>> Yeah.

as you get as you have less time because you get older, you have more you have kids, you have less energy, whatever, your judgment's got to make up for your lack of time that you're willing to throw at the problem now. So, I think early on like I wouldn't have it's not

like I would have just like done nothing. That's not what I would that's

nothing. That's not what I would that's not what I mean by like you know hard work is overrated. I would have just been really intentional about project selection about people selection who I work with and then lastly like you know I would work hard and I'd focus on the

skill building part of working hard because most projects fail but the skills stick with you >> right >> like my sushi thing failed but randomly while we were doing that we were blogging and making like video content

like I learned I learned After Effects I learned iMovie I learned Photoshop just enough to be dangerous I'm not great at it >> but those served me really well when I went into Silicon Valley and I could actually like mock things up myself send it to the designer like the skill stuck

with me.

Right. So I think skill building is really important >> and also in that case you can apply the skills to things that you would have been more naturally interested in doing anyway. Right. Like I think you know you

anyway. Right. Like I think you know you mentioned those skills you built up >> to pick a better project. I still got that skill.

>> Exactly. And you did this you did this exact same thing when you applied to Monkey Inferno. Like you probably

Monkey Inferno. Like you probably applied a lot of those skills in the way you actually got that job.

>> Totally. Totally. And like you know I think so I think that's the um I forgot somebody said this. I think it was um who was it that said the the skill mass?

Oh, Derek Civer said this. He goes um I think skills are the most valuable thing because they can't be inherited. They

can't be bought. They can't be taken away from you. Yeah.

>> Like it can only be earned. And um

Seinfeld kind of says the same thing basically like skill is really the thing worth having all the things like the skill is the thing.

>> Like what could you choose? You want the skill.

>> Yeah. Like what could you choose? You

can choose like more resources. You

could choose whatever you could choose achievements. But like skill is the

achievements. But like skill is the thing. It's the mastery of a of a thing

thing. It's the mastery of a of a thing is is the thing you really want. It's

the key that unlocks infinite number of doors.

>> Right. Right. I think there's also something to be said for going that extra mile and trying to acquire those skills. Like there is such a surface

skills. Like there is such a surface area of luck that increases when you do that. Like you know you can open up an

that. Like you know you can open up an ability to do something else you didn't even know was an option just because you've unlocked this skill and interest.

>> Totally. We have this uh company we invested in. Um I don't know if I should

invested in. Um I don't know if I should say the name. Maybe I I won't say the name. Yeah.

name. Yeah.

>> Uh the founder used to work in like a e-commerce DC brands, >> small DC brands you never heard of, >> just kind of like there's like two worlds. There's like tech Silicon Valley

worlds. There's like tech Silicon Valley where you raise millions in venture capital and you hire the best people and you you go for a billion dollar outcome.

And then there's like e-commerce dudes who like basically you like you're on Alibaba and then you have like a your mom is your warehouse at the beginning and you're like drop shipping and you're trying to figure out like Google ads and

Facebook ads and Tik Tok. So usually

those two worlds are very separate, right? This guy hopped from one to the

right? This guy hopped from one to the other like you know like is this how co started like from the bat to like humans or whatever. That's what that's what he

or whatever. That's what that's what he did. So what he did was he developed in

did. So what he did was he developed in ecom >> this like marketing skill around paid ads.

>> When he went to um when he started this venturebacked company that's a B2B software company. Most of the guys in

software company. Most of the guys in there are like a somewhere between a zero out of 10 to a six out of 10 at paid ads, >> right?

>> Like you know who love like people who are great at paid ads. There are people who are like, you know, affiliate marketers and ecom people. They are

dialed in. They know how to do that. Y

>> So he took that and he did it there. He

took that skill and he transferred it.

Like just today they raised basically like 3000400 million valuation within two years. And the reason why they're

years. And the reason why they're growing so fast is because he cut his teeth doing ecom, you know, like digital ads, Google, Facebook ads, and he took that over here and he's like, "This is

like shooting fish in a barrel."

Now I have the super sticky product with a high price point. You know, instead of selling a widget for 20 bucks in ecom, I'm selling like a $20,000 recurring revenue contract.

>> Yeah.

>> But it's the same thing. And and nobody here knows how to do paid ads at the level I do. So this is great. Uh and so, you know, that skill can like once you apply it to a better project can be a huge multiplier,

>> right? Do you think project selection as

>> right? Do you think project selection as a skill is also something that that builds over time >> if you're intentional about it? Yeah.

Like of course um most people don't, right? Most like I don't think most

right? Most like I don't think most people really even know the word project selection to be honest. Like how many times have you even said that to yourself? Probably zero.

yourself? Probably zero.

>> Um people think about industries, they think about careers, but like >> just atomic unit is a project. That's

like the thing you're going to do.

>> And I think picking projects and picking partners both have this huge like change in like your outcome. And very few people know anything about how to pick good partners. people know anything

good partners. people know anything about how to make pick good projects, but you can of course do those. Well,

those are skills >> and pay attention to it and learn about it. Yeah.

it. Yeah.

>> Yeah. I want to talk about two things that that are really interesting. One um

well interesting to me. I hope they're interesting. Um on the project selection

interesting. Um on the project selection side of things, I you you once called me um when I went to go work with you again instead of taking a sales job um to go help you guys with clips for MFM and

things like that. And it didn't end up panning out. But, you know, the decision

panning out. But, you know, the decision I had at the time was like, "Hey, go go go do this sales job, you know, earn like 12 grand a month, which, you know, I'm like 22, I'm 21. I'm like, that that's insane amount of money, but I don't need that money." And you said

something to me that I still remember to this day. I was I was outside cuz I'm 8

this day. I was I was outside cuz I'm 8 9 hours ahead and it was dark. And uh

you said, you know, do do you just want to be another sales guy? And that I heard that I was like, no, you know, like I don't want to be that. And

>> spitting on you.

>> Yeah. I was like, how dare you?

>> I spit on you through Slack.

>> I felt it. I felt it. Um, you know, because of that, like I don't know if we'd ever even be here now because of that decision, right? So, there's so many things downstream of that um project selection that I think are so important. How

important. How >> how do you lean?

>> Was I right, by the way? Did that work out for you?

>> Yeah, dude. I'm happy with that.

>> I'm loving it. Like, you know, I still don't know exactly where I'm going, but like I'm in such a >> Your gut tells you I've moved in the right direction.

>> Doesn't mean it has to have played out yet, >> right?

>> But still, right? You know, like your gut is very strong at telling you that.

Yeah, I feel like I would have been at that beach uh had I said no and like stayed on that job. And now I'm like, you know, out here doing things. I'm I'm

blessed enough to be able to talk to you guys here, right? So that's not something that would have happened otherwise.

>> That's cool.

>> Yeah. So I appreciate that.

>> Um you mentioned do, you know, project selection is really important, but the other most important thing is who you're doing things with. Yeah.

>> Right. Um

>> that was the mistake you made. I offered

you a role.

>> I was like, you should come work with me. You're going to learn a lot more.

me. You're going to learn a lot more.

You're going to do cool [ __ ] Yeah, you went on your own, which is always good for skill building. You probably, I would say, built a wider set of skills because when you're on your own, you got to do everything, >> right?

>> But you didn't opt into a network, >> right?

>> This is the other thing I've been learning a lot. Uh, not to hijack your question, but that's great.

>> We just did a podcast with um James Cer.

Did you know him?

>> Yeah.

>> Network of maybe explain to to >> Sure. James is like a Silicon Valley OG.

>> Sure. James is like a Silicon Valley OG.

He runs this fund called NFX, like a $1.2 billion fund.

um has sold has built multiple companies, sold them, uh basically like never lost a dollar for investors like in 30 years.

>> Y >> So it's like, all right, great. Um he's

somebody I learned a lot from and he's like somebody I consider like a mentor to me and he he's big on networks.

Everything he talks about is networks, networks. It's like it's like annoying.

networks. It's like it's like annoying.

He's like, "Dude, James, I get it."

Like, you know, "Hey, can you pass the cheese?" He's like, "Is it part of the

cheese?" He's like, "Is it part of the network?" It's like, "All right, dude.

network?" It's like, "All right, dude.

Just give me the cheese." So he um he talks about this like with with very simple example is like you know where you choose to go to college that's a network you're joining you're not just joining a college you're joining the >> the alumni

>> Harvard alumni network or and some networks are really powerful and some networks are pretty weak >> when you uh move to San Francisco you're joining the San Francisco network and you'll start to network in there and you'll connect with a bunch of nodes and

some of those nodes will lead to more opportunities and so you might say I don't want to move in San Francisco the rent is $2,000 more but that one But being in that network is worth much more than that rent, right? Or the taxes,

right? He talks about how like

right? He talks about how like >> moving away just for taxes decision >> because yeah, you saved 10%.

>> Well, you lost out on a 10x 10x more money you would have made just by staying in the like >> the white hot center of the tech and AI network is so much more valuable if you're good.

>> Yeah.

>> If you're bad, you're not going to get any value out of it. But if you're good, you should be in good networks. And so,

um, I think this is something that people, uh, I did wrong, I think other people do it wrong, which I think you did it wrong in this situation, which is, >> um, if you have a chance to opt into a better network, it's almost always worth

more than the incremental dollar, especially the earlier in your career, cuz you're going to have more time for that to compound, right?

>> Uh, right? Like the the actual network value to compound.

>> And so, I think that that's a mistake that I probably made early on that I didn't really recognize. And as I've talked to James, I've recognized that more and more how valuable that is.

Yeah, I mean that to our earlier conversation is probably a mistake I'm making now even just being in Europe still. Not no no no no offense to to

still. Not no no no no offense to to Europe but you know it is much worse. Um

let's let's stay on this a little bit actually before going into to find like co-founders and things like that cuz that's like a little bit more.

>> By the way, we should say one thing.

Yeah, >> you can win anywhere. You can win on your own. You can win in any industry.

your own. You can win in any industry.

You can win in the restaurant industry.

You can win it anytime we're knocking at these. It's not cuz that thing is so

these. It's not cuz that thing is so fatally flawed. It's just

fatally flawed. It's just >> you want to make things easier, not harder. You want to increase your

harder. You want to increase your probabilities of success, not decrease them. That's what we mean. One is better

them. That's what we mean. One is better or worse. Yeah.

or worse. Yeah.

>> Uh it's generally just like either it's >> more fun, it's easier, or it increases your probability.

>> Of course, there's always outliers and exceptions, and you could be one of them, and more power to you.

>> But it's trade-offs, right? And it's to your point earlier where like if you're surrounded by five people who go to the gym, >> chances are you're going to get >> increase your odds. It's not a guarantee, and you could have, of course, done it surrounded by other

people. Why not increase your odds? Why

people. Why not increase your odds? Why

not make things easier on yourself? Like

there's no bonus points >> for doing everything the hard way for for making your odds worse, you know, like why?

>> Like good for you. But

>> yeah, what's the point?

>> Yeah. What what other things being in a network and just in general like I I think being in a network as well and self- selecting for that, it's like a function where you know if if you're

even a small bad example maybe like if if there's a subreddit for a specific basketball team and you join that and you're very active there, you're self- selecting for a community. sort of the same thing um on Twitter or you know what content you're listening to and

following as well as which city you go to. What what are some like other

to. What what are some like other examples of that outside of like moving proximity wise like that you can that you can self- select to.

>> I mean you just named it your Info Diet, >> right?

>> I know a lot of people that aren't on Twitter. Are you opted out of that

Twitter. Are you opted out of that network or they're not on TikTok?

Whatever. These are networks you're opting into. Within them there's sub

opting into. Within them there's sub networks, right? Subclusters.

networks, right? Subclusters.

>> So your info diet, right? The same way, you know, there's these economic studies, right? Your income will end up

studies, right? Your income will end up being roughly the average of the five people you hang out with the most.

>> Well, it's the same thing for ideas or thoughts, right? Like you're you're

thoughts, right? Like you're you're going to average in you're going to dollar cost average into the thoughts of that that that network that you're in.

So >> whether it's the content you consume, if you consume the same content as everybody else, you're probably going to have the same thoughts as everybody else. If you hang out with the same

else. If you hang out with the same people, you're going to end up with the same people, right? If you want to make some changes or you want to have differentiation of some kind, should probably differentiate your info diet.

You should probably differentiate, you know, the people you hang out with or your what you do with your free time.

Like those are the simplest, you know, thing those are the things that are upstream of a bunch of the results people want downstream, >> right? Just the network selection.

>> right? Just the network selection.

>> Yeah.

>> Yeah. That's Yeah, that's that's a tough one.

>> Why is that? I I feel like that's back to your point earlier of like what your ro like you're going in this direction inertia you know you're only doing it because you're doing it like if you're really honest with yourself like which

networks do you want to select into and I I think probably you know if you stop bad example me right you stop listening to Tik Tok you stop watching Tik Tok right and everyone you know is telling you like hey Sean I

just saw this new Tik Tok like oh I I don't watch Tik Tok man I I don't know about that like I think that plays into lots of other aspects of your life where you have to be very intentional about it cuz otherwise uh you're going to get overwhelmed and sort of not make that

decision. So I think it's it it plays

decision. So I think it's it it plays into your life more in more ways than than one might think. Like even your info diet.

>> Yeah. Yeah. True. I mean I'm and look if you love the thing do it. Great. But

it's like if you don't or you're just like you're open-minded.

>> Yeah.

>> Maybe you like reading books more, right? Maybe you like doing certain

right? Maybe you like doing certain certain other things, right? Like maybe

you just pick up a different hobby that opts you into a different network. Yeah.

>> Um right. Like I know a lot of people that do jiu-jitsu.

>> Mh. jiu-jitsu, it's exercise, but it's different than the elliptical. You're

going to work out a different way.

You're going to develop a skill. You're

going to be a part of a community.

You're going to build your toughness.

You're going to learn the mental resilience. You're going to learn about

resilience. You're going to learn about like leverage. You're going to learn so

like leverage. You're going to learn so many things out of that same hour of exercise. Yeah.

exercise. Yeah.

>> Like, >> so some people will should try that because it's going to get you a different result than maybe uh you know that hour on the elliptical at you know level 17 >> and yourself. Just you and yourself.

>> Yeah. Yes. You and yourself. Exactly.

>> Yeah. Um let's let's talk about the final thing in terms of network. You've

mentioned part you know project selection we've talked about is very important but also people selection and partner selection.

Uh you've you've often talked about Warren Buffett sort of framework for it and you've got a good one for it as well in terms of choosing who to work with and potentially even just doing project with, right? Like so if you've got

with, right? Like so if you've got company A and B that are the exact same but they've got different people working there like how do you figure out what types of people you want to be around?

Um talk to me about you know your selection framework for that. Yeah. Um,

okay. So, you know, Buffett has a great one on this, which is, you know, you select for energy, >> intelligence, and integrity, right?

Those are the three legs of the stool, >> right?

>> If they have the energy and intelligence, but no integrity, great.

They're a smart crook, and you're the stool falls over, right? If if you have the energy and the integrity, but no intelligence, you're not going to really get anywhere. Right? So, you get the

get anywhere. Right? So, you get the idea. Um, I learned for myself there's a

idea. Um, I learned for myself there's a fourth thing that really really mattered which is that having somebody who's down >> and I don't know a better word for this.

I just called it down because that's the way I would describe them. Like

>> it's great. He's down. He's and down meant a couple of different things. It's

uh >> they're down to try it. So they'll take a halfbaked idea and be like, "Yeah, let's give it a shot.

>> I need that." And I think great things come from being around people who are down, >> right?

>> I think they're down for adventure. So,

like when they we could choose a safe path or a more interesting story path, they're down for they're down for that and they'll lean that way with me.

>> Yeah.

>> I think they're um they're down to like buckle down and just grind and just do something that's hard for a while. Like

they're not going to run away from pain or difficulty.

>> Um so down means a bunch of different things to me and that's the best way I can explain it is having somebody who's down. For me, that's almost the the sort

down. For me, that's almost the the sort of the highest priority bit. Uh

everything else is sort of secondary to that.

>> Yeah. You've talked about when you met Ben, uh, you know, your your ultimate partner right now where he had a SAS that was doing, I think, a million dollars a year in profit. He had, you know, an objectively great position and

he sort of took he was down enough to go on this random side project with you.

Um, is there anything you can tell you talk to us about Ben and sort of uh bring those three aspects you just mentioned to life?

>> Yeah, Ben's the most down, right? Like

he's uh you said it perfectly. He had a business doing a million dollars a year in profit at the time.

>> And I was like, "Hey, you want to spend your time doing like this random unknown thing with me that I think I think is going to be pretty fun. I think it could be interesting."

be interesting." >> Yeah.

>> Yeah. I'm down. All right. Okay, cool. I

don't really know exactly what it is. I

have this rough idea.

>> You down with that? Yeah, I'm down.

Like, I'm down to not I don't need it all figured out, >> right?

>> Okay, cool. We ended up doing this thing that for 90 days was like really intense. Like, this is full on.

intense. Like, this is full on.

>> I'm down. Right. Just And he just carried on. Then we switched and we did

carried on. Then we switched and we did the next thing and the next thing >> and we've done probably five or six different things together, maybe more seven at this point.

>> Every single one of them has been super fun. Every one of them has worked. It's

fun. Every one of them has worked. It's

been a pleasure to work with them and that's a big reason why.

>> Yeah, that's so amazing. Let's let's go and start wrapping this up a little bit in terms of your story. Let's talk about 2025. Um on the podcast you guys have

2025. Um on the podcast you guys have talked about this this thing called misogi. Uh can you explain what that is

misogi. Uh can you explain what that is and then tell me do you have one for 2025?

>> Yeah. Yeah, sure. Misogi misogi I think is this concept Jesse came on the podcast and talked about it it's a every year be a little be intentional with your time so it's very easy for one year

to blend into the next time flies time flies because you're in a routine and that routine is often filled >> inertia >> yeah inertia it's it's filled with Zoom calls and errands and you know weekly

standups with your with with random people >> so that's going to happen by default if you want anything else to happen you got to do something about I agree with him and he has this like intense like way of planning out your

year. We did a podcast with him. You can

year. We did a podcast with him. You can

go see it on YouTube. Jesse how to have a big 2025 >> and uh what one of the central things is this idea of a misog one grand challenge for the year a year defining thing that you will do

>> that is both hard and rewarding and um memorable for you and meaningful to you.

And so for some people that's like do a Iron Man or climb Everest or what whatever their thing is. Um, so that's the idea. That's the concept. Mine this

the idea. That's the concept. Mine this

year is to it's not doesn't sound like Everest, but it is important to me. Um,

I wanted to learn how to jam out on the piano. So, I was like, I want to learn a

piano. So, I was like, I want to learn a new skill. I want to learn the piano.

new skill. I want to learn the piano.

>> More specifically, um, I want to be able to jam out, meaning I want to be able to play the songs I want. I want to be able to play in like a dad band with other people. Like, I just think that would be

people. Like, I just think that would be a really fun aspect of my life to to work in. Um, and I want my life to be

work in. Um, and I want my life to be fun and I want it to be interesting and I thought, look, I'm never going to h just have the time magically to do this.

>> But if I was like, yeah, yeah, that was the year that I like I learned how to play the piano and I could do that for the rest of my life. Like something you do when you're I could be 80 years old.

I could be playing the piano. And so I thought, oh yeah, that'll be your year defining. That'll be the year I decided

defining. That'll be the year I decided to do that and I made it happen.

>> Yeah. Is it this going well?

>> Yeah, it's going great so far. I'm doing

my thing.

>> That's amazing. I think I want to wrap it up by saying there's I recently reread Paul Graham's how to do great work and he says, you know, it's similar to his his phrasing for finding startup ideas like don't don't look for it. Um

just do things you're naturally interested in and you know do something where at the end of it you'd say that that was pretty cool. I did that. Um I

think that's a great way to choose your misogi as well. Like you know >> I think he says like let interestingness be the filter. Yes.

>> So is it interesting to you? And if it's interesting to you then it's worth doing. You'll you'll be excited while

doing. You'll you'll be excited while you're doing it. it'll be it'll be worth doing just because it was interesting.

>> Yeah.

>> But also interestingness like what's interesting to you is not interesting universally right?

>> So he talks about like it's also a good strategy because nobody can copy your taste profile. So if it's interesting to

taste profile. So if it's interesting to you >> that's not going to be interesting to everybody. So it's already going to

everybody. So it's already going to self- select out a bunch of other filter out a bunch of other people. And

secondly um >> if it's interesting to you you're going to do it all the time. Same same that flywheel I talked about. You're going to do it all the time.

>> Rule of 100.

>> Therefore therefore you're going to get good at it. When you're good at it you're going to get a good result. So,

it's like that's why he says, "Let that be the guide." Um because >> that that will lead you to the most interesting place you can. And if the first one doesn't work, doesn't matter.

It'll be you'll have so much fun doing it. You'll just keep keep doing that.

it. You'll just keep keep doing that.

It'll eventually land in a good spot.

>> Yeah. In in in of in and of itself, it will still be fun, >> right?

>> Yeah. I love it. I I think that's it. I

I had a couple hot fire ones, but I think honestly like leaving it on this such a high note, I think this if I were to listen to this, I'm going to keep listening to this on repeat. I think

people are going to be jacked up and, you know, ready to change their life after after hearing that. All right,

let's do it.

>> Awesome. All right, thanks Sean. I

appreciate it, man.