Linear’s secret to building beloved B2B products | Nan Yu (Head of Product)

I think you see on the team at linear

that a lot of people don't see which is

that there's not actually a trade-off

between speed and quality people talk

about this as if there were a trade-off

because when they think about speed the

thing they over index on is like rushing

or being sloppy what they should be

indexing on is being really competent if

you look at people who are like at the

the Pinnacle of their craft you can

basically tell how good the output is

going to be of their work product by how

fast they're going what does speed look

like when you say it can be done quickly

and high quality what it really looks

like is you know you have some rough

time budget for how long you're thinking

something's going to take by the time

10% of it has passed after week one you

have something that works that tests

some kind of key hypothesis internally

imagine a criticism you all get over

time you'll probably become a bloated

piece of software as well when we

examine this problem we kind of look at

what feature requests can we debate and

what kind of feature requests do we

absolutely have to say no to the stuff

that we absolutely have to say no to is

the exact kind of thing that leads to

this bloatedness that makes I kind of

hate their lives something that your

head of s shared with me is how

impressed he is with the way you ask

questions on customer calls and just

keep digging and digging until you get

to something my goal is to feel bad in

the same way that customers feel

bad today my guest is nonan youu nonan

is head of product at linear which is

one of the most beloved most beautifully

designed and also the fastest growing

B2B SAS product out there today you

rarely see the kind of love that people

have for linear for any Enterprise B2B

SAS product and so there is a lot that

we can learn from how linear operates

and how they build product in my

conversation with nonan he shares a

system that he uses for being creative

and coming up with non- obvious

solutions to customer problems why it's

a red flag to him when PMS tell him

there's a trade-off between speed and

quality how he talks to customers in

order to figure out the emotion that

they want to avoid and then figure out

the solution to avoiding that emotion

plus some killer advice on how to land a

job including how he landed his job at

linear and his previous role at mode and

so much more if you have a desire to

build a company or a product that's as

beloved as linear this episode will give

you a ton of tactics and ways to change

how you and your team operate if you

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integration nonan thank you so much for

being here and welcome to the podcast

thanks for having me I'm a longtime

listener and and reader so it's uh

really a treat to be here I want to

share something with you to kick off

that I haven't shared with you yet that

haven't shared with anyone these results

might have come out by the time this

podcast comes out but I'm running a

survey right now that I'm calling what's

in your stack where all my subscribers

are asked what tools do you use most

day-to-day what tools do you love most

what tools do you hate and one of the

questions asked was what tool do you

wish you could switch to if your it

Department allowed you

to the number one answer by far is

people want to switch from jira to

linear wow I mean hopefully that means

we're doing a good job I think that's

exactly what that means I'll read a

couple quotes to give you a sense of

what people are saying about linear I

doubt these are surprising to you but

this gives people a sense of why you're

here and why I'm excited to extract as

much wisdom as I can from you so a

couple quotes here linear is a joy to

use as I interact with my engineering

teams and I find inspiration in its

design linear is simple to use yet

powerful linear's design is obviously an

industry Benchmark but moreover the

performance and speed is a massive

productivity boost I mean it's really

good to hear that because you know in a

lot of ways that's what we're trying to

do you know if you think about like the

entire impetus behind why linear was

started it's because you know Ki was

kind of like sitting at like coinbase

and Airbnb in these places and just you

know watching everyone around

him struggle using the tools that uh

they had available and like all these

kind of incumbent tools and just you

know like seeing that it kind of made

people like kind of hate their

day-to-day a little bit and we all got

into uh technology and and design and

Engineering all this kind of stuff uh

because it was fun right all of us

started off like building stupid Myspace

pages and and all of this these like

side projects when When We Were Young uh

and it started off as this fun thing

that we do and we're like wow we get to

do this for career and then to have all

of this kind of stuff uh put these big

speed bumps into uh into our day-to-day

workflow just uh was really was really

sad so that's what you know that's why

we started linear to sort of really bust

the RO of that what I love about linear

I feel like it's a inspirational

business because many people want to I'm

going to build just a much better

version of something and often that

doesn't actually work out often nobody

cares enough there's all these barriers

and reasons people don't switch to

something that's better and linear is an

amazing example of building an excellent

product and actually succeeding and

there's a lot more to it than maybe than

just building an awesome product so

that's what I'm excited to dig into and

understand how you all operate and I

guess just based on these results to me

this is the ultimate sign of product

Market fit people like being sad they

can't use a product in B2B enterprise

software especially so let's get into it

first question I want to get into is

something that I think you see in the

team at linear sees that a lot of people

don't see which is that there's not

actually a trade-off between speed and

quality I think a lot of people think

this is just an Nate fact and something

I've heard you talk about is that's not

actually true and actually saw Patrick

hson tweet this exact point that I'll

read after you I want to hear your

thoughts but talk about what you've

learned about how there's maybe not

actually this trade-off between speed

and quality people talk about this as if

there were a trade off almost in kind of

like a naive way because when they think

about

speed the thing they over index on is is

like rushing or being sloppy and what

they should be indexing on is being

really competent or being like an expert

so if you look at um if you look at

people who are like at the the Pinnacle

of their of their craft right it could

be anything be like a chef or a

programmer or you know someone building

houses or something you can basically

tell how good the output is going to be

of their work product by how fast

they're going right if they're going

really fast and it's like they're

obviously not like being sloppy and then

leaving a mess all over the place it's

like yeah well they they got there

because this is just second nature to

them and they're able to kind of go at a

really rapid pace and you know try stuff

uh and when we're building software

that's that's such a big component of

how good the product is on the other

side of it which is like how many

iterations were you able to do so the

only way you're going to get a bunch of

iterations done and try different things

and really feel out uh these different

variations is by just going very fast in

terms of speed is the speed there moving

quickly on each of those iterations

like what does speed look like when you

say it can be done quickly and high

quality what do speed look like uh speed

what it really looks like is by you know

you have some rough time budget for how

long you think something's going to take

and by the time 10% of it has passed you

have a workable solution right it's not

like oh at the halfway point we have

something that is maybe a candidate that

we can play around with it's like no no

no like after week one you have

something that works that tests some

kind of key hypothesis internally so

that you can feel like is this thing

actually uh panning out the way we

expected to or did we have some crazy

incorrect assumption and you know you

don't want to wait till you're 80% done

to be able to make that kind of judgment

because then it's just too late then

you're you're pushing deadlines out and

you're uh you know you're making your

marketing team very sad amazing okay so

the way you think is we're going to

spend a month on this feature let's get

something workable we can start testing

with potential users even internally in

the first few days days essentially in

the first week yes yeah yeah I guess how

how can you do that because most teams

can't do that most teams need to

research design build okay cool we have

something and a month later what allows

you to to do that I mean there's a lot

of components of it I think having

really good talent really helps right

having Engineers who uh don't get

blocked by every single little design

choice you know they they're they're

happy to just make something workable

even if they don't feel comfortable with

that particular solution they they'll

just bust through it and uh and make

something happen there part of it is

intent you know we don't have any

expectation that the first version of it

is going to be great right that's just

that's that is not in the cards right

like look the first version of it is our

best guess in the general direction of

what we want to actually ship in the end

and sometimes it works out some wow this

first version was pretty good let's make

some minor adjustments and we're and

we're good to go but there's no

expectation there so no one feels like

they have to be a perfectionist and get

everything like all sanded down and and

and really uh you know really in tip

toop shape right it just has to work and

get the job done and and you know kind

of validate or invalidate our our major

assumptions I'll read this quote from

Patrick hson he tweeted this today as I

Was preparing for this interview and

he's the CEO founder of stripe if you're

not familiar uh his tweet is I

increasingly believe that good cheap

fast choose to Maxim is Devious

misinformation spread by the

slow in my experience slow and expensive

usually go together yeah exactly I mean

use the contract

kind of example like if someone's making

modifications in your house and it's

taking forever like one you're you're in

a hotel and also the the the bills are

adding

up the other example use when we were

chatting about this earlier is chess

chess players I'm thinking of Magnus

Carlson watching him I think he was like

number one in speed chess in addition to

just regular chess and what a microcosm

of at this point yeah I I think that's

uh this the case and like you know

magnes and Hikaru and all those all

those guys who are at the at the top of

their game you know they can

they can go unbelievably fast in fact

that's that's the usual I mean I don't

want to get too out of my depth with

with chess but the usual way you you try

to make the game fair is you give them

much much less time right than someone

who's uh not quite as strong of a player

and and they'll they'll still win a lot

of time too so maybe just to close out

this point and give someone something

concrete they can do with this

information say they want to start

moving faster while not cutting quality

what do you think they can do what's one

thing they can start trying to work on

and improving in the way they operate I

think it's really that um that sort of

attitude and point of view question

right to sort of understand and uh take

the sort

of almost like controlled risk that the

first version of this is not going to be

perfect so it actually makes it a lot

cheaper in many ways it means you don't

need a per Pixel Perfect Design it means

you don't need to make sure that all of

the little UI bugs and stuff like that

are solved because none of that really

matters right it has what matters is you

have working software that you can

interact with and you can see if it

feels good does it actually solve the

core problem that uh is facing our users

you can take it back to users you can

even like let them into an early beta or

something like that and get real um you

know validation there and uh and to sort

of really focus on getting the the

smallest kind of shippable element like

not not shippable in the sense of like I

can actually put on the production but

in the sense of like I can you know

start learning from here just a question

I imagine is in everyone's mind is what

do you do with this first very ugly V1

not ugly not not fully ready uh first is

this something you're using internally

to see if it's something is it something

you have beta design partners with we

have uh a sort of gradually increasing

sort of Circle of users that use every

single feature so by the time it hits uh

GA by the time it gets released it's

been used by a lot of different users to

that point right so the first circle is

just internal users we use linear every

single day to you know to write software

and do our own work so you know we have

that kind of advantage and then once we

feel like it's good enough we'll put it

into some beta customer group again as

early as we can in the process right we

have to make sure that we don't end up

corrupting people's data and it doesn't

look hius and that kind of stuff but as

long as it reaches that level of quality

we can uh we can release it to to sort

of Early Access customers who can give

us good feedback and also just try to

solve their problems with it right if no

one engages with it if no one's using it

then you know that's a pretty good

signal that we didn't really hit the

mark and then we have a couple of

different beta audiences that we grow

and then the ultimate release obviously

is for for GA where everyone gets it

that's an amazing answer okay so secret

number one to linear success I'm going

to take some notes Here is get uh new

feature product ideas out to people as

early as possible say in the first 10%

of the amount of time you've allotted

and then uh release it kind of

increasingly to more and more people to

get feedback uh like I think an

implication here is just most wasted

time is on building things nobody

actually ends up wanting or using and so

the sooner you at least get directional

sense of are you're heading in a good

direction the faster it all go yeah

totally I imagine a criticism you all

get uh people are like yes linear is so

great so beautiful so much better than

what's been out there for decades but

over time you'll probably become a

bloated piece of software as well that's

just the fate of enterprise software you

have to check all these check boxes it

teams need all these features and so

there's always this like oh yeah sure

you guys can operate this way for now

you have an amazing product for now but

it'll get ugly and Bloated

do you think about avoiding that I know

it's something you spent a lot of time

thinking about maybe give us a glimpse

into some of the conversations you have

internally when there's these feature

requests like oh I need single sign on

with this thing and this button here how

do you think about what to add what not

to add and how to add these features to

not make it bloed this question actually

comes to us a lot from candidates that

are interviewing with us right like when

you go like hey like do you have any

questions for us like this is the

question that we're going to get right

so um we hear quite a lot and uh and I

it's very sensible for them to ask it

right because they they see you know

sort of History being kind of like

littered with the corpses of startups

trying to compete in the space and and

not making it and I I think when we uh

examine this problem we kind of look at

what kind of feature

requests can we debate and what kind of

feature requests do we absolutely have

to say no to and the the stuff that we

absolutely have to say no to is uh also

the the exact kind of thing that leads

to this kind of like bloatedness that

you know makes IC kind of hate their

lives uh and it's it's very specific

it's customization features requested by

middle managers in order to make

reporting a little bit easier at the

cost of making IC workflow is worse

right like it's like if it fits that

description we're just saying no there's

there's there's no debate because we've

already thought about it and this is

this is the thing that we can't we can't

take a single step down this path so I I

think that's like honestly one of the

core promises of linear is that we will

not make this particular tradeoff right

so when you when you see people saying

like wow you know linear is so much uh

faster it's so much easier to use it

makes my my work so much more enjoyable

like this is the reason because we have

not taken a single step in this

direction uh it's very easy for a PM to

say yes to this kind of request right

because they're talking with often

they're talking with Buyers right in

kind of like B2B uh type of space they

talking with whoever the gatekeeper is

and sales is putting pressure on them uh

and they're saying like hey we really

want this this one feature it's going to

make our reporting like nicer so like

you know the the uh you know the

director is going to be really excited

by this and we'll definitely make a

buying decision based off of this and we

have to kind of convince them that this

is a false tradeoff right the the whole

premise is wrong because the moment you

start going down this path and you make

um you make the IC user experience worse

they're just going to disengage right no

one has to do this like if I'm an

engineer I get paid to write code my

performance review is based on my like

code contribution it's not based on like

did I fill in all the tickets gets right

so I'm just not going to do that part or

I'm going to do it very sporadically and

uh and then you know I'm going to just

focus on on my actual job and then all

your reporting is wrong because all the

data is wrong and it's like sparse and

you you get situations where people will

um you know they'll they'll say like

well this here's a drop down field that

someone put in here that's required

there's nine choices I don't know what

any of them meet so I'm just going to

pick one at random I'm just always going

to pick the first one also I'm going to

pray that my boss is not actually using

this data to do any kind of uh reporting

and that that has consequence because

the data can't possibly be correct so I

think for us it's like it's a very easy

decision when it comes to that

particular uh category of feature

request I love how simple and clear that

is basically you all have a policy we

will prioritize ic's over middle

managers especially I love that it's

around reporting almost always it sounds

like just want to track what's happening

yeah exactly it's I want to track what's

happening well what do you want to track

well I want to track uh which you know

like

which uh version of the product this

thing tied to you know based on some

some field information it's like okay

like how is the person working on is

supposed to even know that information

well it takes a five it takes like a f

minute scavenger hunt every single time

it's like I don't think they're going to

do that man what I imagine happens and I

think why this is hard for most

companies is there's an implication that

you're turning down deals you're not uh

adding that one feature that will close

a massive million dollar sale uh very

difficult to do I imagine it helps a lot

that I imagine this is very bought into

this and there's this we will win

longterm uh holding the line on this is

that right so it is but I also think

that there's not as much pressure as as

you would expect right to do these kinds

of things there there are basic scaling

things like you know we had to make like

samle and skim and that kind of stuff

it's like yeah sure we're going to do

those sorts of like keep the lights on

type of work but when it comes to work

that's related to the actual you know

the actual business logic of of

the the apps like value proposition what

buyers care about is is this going to

make their team more effective right

that's the reason that they're making

this buying decision in the first place

is that they're like well you know the

current situation we're in and

especially with larger companies right

the current situation we're in is kind

of a mess and if we can convince them

that these types of things are actually

the reason that it's a mess then like we

can really kind of navigate them out of

wanting them in the first place SC it so

there's an element of you think you need

this but it turns out you'll be more

successful and get everything you want

not getting this yeah and and and thing

is it's not everything you want right

because like if people come with a

laundry list and it's like laundry list

here's here's 10 things I want you're

like do you want all those 10 things

equally they're like no actually I don't

the first three are the things that

really matter to us if we solve the

first three then the other stuff we can

negotiate on so our job is to solve the

first three way better than anybody else

that if they got through the first three

through some kind of like visual

programming customization

type of thing that it was it's never

going to get to the Quality level and

the depth that we're able to offer by

offering those as native features it's

interesting thinking back to that survey

I shared where like then the tool people

want to switch to if it allowed them was

linear and on the one hand you could

argue well okay it is not letting them

use linear for all these reasons on the

other hand you guys are growing really

quickly within Enterprise like you're

not you're a new business you started I

think mid-market startups and now you're

working your way up and so uh I think

it's it's not fair to say it's not going

to work in Enterprise it's clearly

working really well I don't know if

there's any stats you you can share

anything of that but it seems to be

going well expanding up Market uh yeah I

mean growth has been good growth in

Enterprise has been you know leading the

other segments uh because I think we

this year especially we reached a

Tipping Point where you know I think

with with software so much of of the

buying decision is is based on uh almost

like a brand thing or like is this for

us right it's it's like you know a lot

of times people people pick you know

like quote enterprise software it's like

why you know everyone doesn't want this

and they're like yeah but it's like it's

for us you won't get fired for buying

Microsoft or whatever yeah exactly and I

think that we're starting to have enough

brand penetration amongst Enterprises

where people can can have that feeling

right that hey like linear is for us

like who are we well we are a large

company that wants to act like a startup

right it's like who doesn't want that

right who doesn't want to go fast

yeah I had uh Jeffrey Moore in the

podcast and this is exactly what

crossing the chasm looks like he talked

about basically you need someone that's

across the CM like a later adopter that

isn't the person that's uh I love new

stuff and I'm gonna an early adopter

kind of evangelist you need someone

that's like traditional old school takes

their time to start to adopt it for you

to be like oh okay now maybe I should

really take it seriously I also think

that with this kind of this particular

category of Tool uh and with a lot of

other B2B soft not like no means not now

right not right now because it doesn't

fit our budget it doesn't fit our change

management situation oh we have this

exec that's really wedded to this um

this you know this other this other tool

but those things change right so we keep

in contact with them they're in our CRM

where you know we make sure we follow up

and you know we've had a lot of these

where uh you know we've been said no to

and two years ago and now like we have

some new features they like oh yeah it

seems like seems like you're ready for

uh you know for our scale or whatever

you mentioned that when you have these

debates and questions that come at you

have features say a big company wants

there's this category of we know we will

not build things for Middle managers

that want reporting and custom stuff

just to track what's happening versus

something an IC wants to be more

productive and successful L year give us

a a little sense of some of the more

complicated debates that aren't

necessarily in that bucket I I think

that the complicated debates are often

you know when we do add a new native

feature do we extend an existing feature

and make more powerful or do we add a

new sort of service and a big part of

that is you know kind of trying to

figure out exactly who's going to use it

what are the actual like real life use

cases that we know about you know like

that I know that Bob from company X has

this workflow and this is how it would

work for him here are the different

variation is where it would work right

so like tying it all the way back to

like real people like a specific person

like a specific person okay yeah yeah

exactly um not not a hypothetical person

right not one that you made up like you

know Alice Bob or whatever is like no I

like here's the first name last name

here's their email you can ask them and

I think that being able to tie it all

the way back to uh to reality in that

way is um you know is a big part of how

we really think about and discuss these

things this connects with the way I

think about my newsletter is uh I always

try to answer the question a very

specific like a person actually asked

not a general sense of something people

may be interested in and that very

specific question like it implies

there's a need like not implies it

proves there's at least one person who

needs this thing versus you have this

idea of somebody that may want this

thing yeah I think I think a trap that a

lot of times PMS will fall into is they

will make something be and they'll

they'll make some choices in it because

you know maybe it's beautiful or it's

elegant but they don't go the the step

of like is reality also beautiful and

elegant because reality is kind of ugly

sometimes and if you have a beautiful

solution that doesn't match with reality

it doesn't really matter right people

can like look at and they can they can

oo and a but if they don't use it to get

their work done it's never going to have

like long-term staying power do you do

you have a heris of how often you need

to hear something for you to could be

dis convinced this is worth investing in

you know people may hear this oh one Bob

Bob wants this featured that doesn't

make sense just one guy uh how do you

know when it's like okay we should

really invest in this part of it is you

you hear something and you're like gosh

that actually is not that true it means

that the way we thought about this was a

little bit wrong and like I call this

process I don't know if it's the right

way to describe it I called a kneeling

right where like you have a thing and

it's not quite the right shape and you

put it out into the wild so this happens

like way in the um in the uh sort of

first you know kind of bit of the life

of a particular feature right you

release a thing and you start getting

feedback about it about it doesn't quite

fit reality and uh and then you kind of

ask yourself like did I did we test that

aspect of it like did we actually match

that part to reality and if you didn't

then it's like that's that's the part

where you don't actually need that many

pieces of feedback against it right it's

not really a volume thing it's like did

we think about this uh right right or

wrong that's one sort of category

another category is just you you're

getting um you know you're getting

requests for maybe a very big feature or

a feature set from a lot of different

people but then you dig in and you try

to say like okay well tell me about how

you're trying to use this and there's

like a hundred different use cases so

you have choices here right you can

either build a big feature that covers

all the long taale use cases or you can

try to see if there's like really

concentrated pools of uh of use cases

for this um that really make a lot of

sense to kind of adopt as a as a sort of

first order uh type of feature um so I

think those are the two sort of

strategies that we um employ the most

right it's like did we think about this

wrong and now we're just learning

something about how it matches reality

or you know for this big General feature

that people are asking for are there

actually more specific uh kind of use

cases that we should be solving and we

should be solving really really well a

thread that's coming through so far

across a lot of these examples is

getting to the uh the person the

specific person using the thing and

making them happy and making sure the

ask is going to solve their actual

problem uh in the case of looking at the

IC versus the middle manager in this

case it's like let's talk to the person

actually asking for this thing not

there's like 100 people generally asking

for this thing let's build what we think

is a general solution yeah like like uh

I'll give you an example of of you know

all of these things right which we just

launched a feature called customer

requests and basically what this does

right it it brings it adds A New Concept

to linear which is like a customer right

for B2B companies is is very relevant

and the reason we uh we did this is

because we kept getting this request for

uh you know for like fully customized

Fields right and and we would be like

well what what is it that you want with

your custom Fields because you know the

problem is you add 100 custom fields and

all your IC start hitting it right so

like we don't want to go down that path

but like what is it actually you're

trying to do and like 40% of them were

because well I have a customer you know

like you know Walmart or whatever right

Walmart ask for this feature it's really

important I need everyone to know that

Walmart needs this I need to track in I

need to see like how how have we you

know report we can report on like what

have we done for Walmart over the past

year so that when my CSM has a has a

one-on-one conversation with the rep

they can like have some kind of evidence

that we've been doing stuff for them

like all this kind of stuff like okay

cool like that's that sounds like a very

useful and powerful thing you want to

do uh how do you expect people to like

tag these things well manually because

that's how we did in our spreadsheets

it's like okay instead of that we're

going to hook up with your customer

support tools we're going to hook up

with your crms we're going to

automatically bring in like feedback

from these companies we're going to

analyze the emails where they're coming

from and then we're just if if someone

requests a feature that gets escalated

into engineering it'll just be tagged

with whoever asked for it like you don't

have to do anything right you but you

will know and you can still report on

this stuff but there's nothing about

this that makes ic's lives harder in

fact it makes them feel more confident

because when they're building the thing

they actually understand like who's

asking for it and exactly what the email

said so when they they get all the when

they're doing the design or the or the

or the details they can actually see the

real life use cases that are present and

solve for those directly as I'm hearing

this it's like okay obviously this like

seems like an obvious solution of course

40% of people telling me they have

customers uh in reality most of the time

if you hear from a bunch of your

customers hey I need this custom field

and sometimes you hear one thing

sometimes you hear another most of the

time you're going to build this custom

field so something that your head of s

shared with me is how impressed he is

with the way you ask questions on

customer calls and just keep digging and

digging until you get to something that

is is an insight for you and then you

start to try to solve the problem for

them and think about what the product

might be and I think this is such an

important and underappreciated skill for

PMS is there any advice you could share

of just like how you approach this how

you ask questions how you think about

these customer calls to get to okay now

I see what we need to build versus let

just build what they're asking for you

know it's it's funny because I think

from the outside right I'm I'm on these

sales calls and then the the the AE or

someone's like watching me ask these

questions and I think often they're like

what are you doing like you're you're

you're just you're just like asking

questions from angles that I I don't

even know what your goal is here and my

goal is to feel bad in the same way that

customers feel bad right they come to us

with the request hey we want X and it's

like there's something motivating it and

it's not you you can do the normal

analytical thing and be like ask five wi

and like try to figure out like what

your goals and you know as a as a

Persona X I want to achieve this outcome

you can do it that way but you might

miss the reason that they actually feel

bad for not having this this thing like

I can't accomplish this goal so what so

I'm not going to get promoted at work

like okay great I understand the

severity of your problem at this point

right like like what is the actual sort

of emotional veilance that is motivating

whatever you're telling me and it takes

a little while to to get there right

like you can ask people directly like

how do you feel and like they're not

necessarily going to tell you but if you

have a long enough and deep enough

conversation with them you start to sort

of level with them and you're like

starting to see stuff from their

perspective and the more you see it from

their perspective and the more they know

that the more they're willing to kind of

like open up to you and like tell you

like okay honestly like you know I I had

this thing happen where uh I marked the

the ship date of this project as

December 30th because it's a Q4 project

and I wanted to put it at the you know

very end and then uh my marketing team

lost their mind because they're like we

can't ship something at December 30th

everyone's on vacation right and you're

like and then they're like yeah this is

made me feel really bad so I don't ever

want to put dates on things ever again

right so like okay cool we we can we can

help you we can help you deal with that

right like if that's if that's what

you're feeling then I can you know kind

of start building stuff to um to make

sure that you never have to have that

bad feeling again people talk about

empathy like can you to have empathy as

a pi you need to build empathy the best

product leaders have empathy and this I

think it's such a succinct and Powerful

way of describing what empathy actually

looks like as a product leader which is

I want to feel as bad as they feel in

hearing the story they tell and it

sounds like the way you do that is you

get you keep asking questions to

understand what it like the moment they

felt bad about something in this case

the deadline yeah and it's you know and

if you if you ask someone that in that

last story like like you know what what

you know what kind of issue you have

you're like oh like you know marketing

and I would just never align on anything

it's like that doesn't really tell you

what's going on right they tells you is

like you had this terrible moment of

communication that was just it felt like

miscommunicated and you're you're like

it's just going to keep happening over

and over again and uh so you know the

thing that we did specifically to solve

this uh was we you know on projects in

linear you can just specify um of Target

date at whatever level of granular you

want right you can say it's a December

project you can say it's a Q4 project

you can say it's a second half of 2024

project like whatever you're happy

promising you can just put it on there

and that way you never feel you never

feel like you have to like give this

this uh sense of like false Precision so

that you know it ends up with a whole

bunch of miscommunication down the line

I could see why people love linear is it

just makes them feel less bad less often

there's a lot of connection here I know

this idea of emotions and feeling bad is

a core part of how you think about

Building Product looking for moments

people feel bad is there anything more

you could share there to share how you

think about this idea of emotional hooks

emotional moments and how you decide

what to

build so I to sort of set the the

background of this right I've worked in

very very competitive Industries you

know I I worked at everlane which was

like a direct consumer clothing brand uh

I worked at mode which like bi tools and

there's like so many bi tools out there

and then obviously linear like we're you

know we're project management there's a

lot of project management tools and I I

think the more competitive your your

industry is the the more the sort of

like lwh hanging goal oriented stuff is

is already picked right because every PM

from every one of these companies been

asking like well like you know what's

what's your goal like what is your job

to be done and all this kind of stuff

and uh so you have to kind of look at

things from uh an angle that other

people might not have seen and for for

me right and for us it's it's the the

angle of of like where are the emotional

hooks uh that you know that you're

experiencing you know as you go through

your workday as you use our product as

you use like competitor's products and I

think it's probably under explored

because um I don't know I feel like PMS

in Engineers were like very thinky

people we don't really you know we like

kind of avoid the touchy Fey stuff and

uh so like I think that's the

opportunity right you can sort of see

where are you feeling bad through every

day where you don't even know right you

might think I hate Mondays right like

why why do you hate Mondays well on

Mondays I have to go out and like gather

a whole bunch of stuff that write this

report that it's really annoying oh so

if I gave you a button that made the

report that help it's like yeah yeah

then I might not hate Monday so much and

uh so like I think PA Paul Graham has a

word for this um he calls it he calls it

schle blindness right right like I'm

like schlepping through life and I'm

just completely blind through it blind

to it and and it's true right you you

kind of have to have an outsider come in

and sort of see you know what the rhythm

of your feelings are throughout the day

throughout the week and like kind of

note the spots where you know you could

really use a lot of pro it is there an

example uh you've shed a couple but just

where you've noticed this in someone

using maybe a competitive or even linear

that you solve I know you gave this

example of the dates I guess is there

anything else a a big sort of

uh feature that people love about linear

is um we have this uh this thing called

triage management and uh what it does is

it sort of systemizes this thing where

like if I put a issue into a a different

team right if I'm asking them to do

something or I'm reporting a bug to them

it sticks in a special Zone where it'll

notify the right people they're on a

rotation and and you know like people

will um you know people will uh be able

to kind of respond to it and uh in a in

a sort of organized you know manner

right

and I I think this you know this kind of

automation this this feature it came out

of two different feels people were

having like one people were trying to

implement this stuff by hand and it was

just a lot of touches right and they

were doing it but they you know they

felt like oh I'm totally underwater why

are you underwater well I have to like

manage all these you know throw all

these tickets around and Route them

correctly and stuff like that um and

they didn't sort of see this as like an

opportunity to have a tool you know

specialize in managing their trios Q

they just like because they were

managing by hand and they were on top of

it right but it just felt really bad

because they just had to spend so much

attention doing this and uh and then

there's the you know the folks who

didn't do that like the feeling was just

like well it's totally out of control

people are just throwing tickets over

the wall and I don't know what to do

with them I don't know where they are

they end up in all these holes right and

then the people on the other side like I

throw tickets over the wall I have no

idea what happens to them like I have no

expectation that people are ever going

to respond to him so like there's all of

these like bad viewings that people are

having that are all kind of the same

root cause which is like there wasn't a

very automated organized way to deal

with your triage Q marketers I know that

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I'm going to try to summarize some of

the secrets of linear

success so far so the first is get

something out as quickly as possible say

in the first 10% of the time that you

have to build this thing and get it out

to internal users and then maybe a

growing list of beta users and people

that are aware of their using early

stuff two is prioritize the IC and the

user basically versus the buyer or the

middle manager that wants reporting and

and all these custom features so it's

basically focus on the user uh which I

think you hear but I love this very

specific example three is get very when

you hear asks for features and requests

get to like the specific person using

the thing not just general okay cool

I've heard it 100 times find the person

that actually needs this thing and

understand what's going on and then four

is look for bad Fe feel people feeling

bad in a moment working in the product

is there anything else that I'm missing

that's important or any Nuance you want

to add you know the the the part we said

like focus on uh focus on user

I I think it's it's maybe a little bit

more solid than that there's there's a

Nuance which is like find where the

incentives are really misaligned amongst

your user base right there's a midal

manager that wants you know really

detailed reporting and there's IC who

just really doesn't want to go through

all those extra steps and the incentives

for what they want are just like very uh

they're just very misaligned and you

have to find those um situations and be

uh pretty judicious about how you make

those tradeoffs and where you can really

find kind of like win-win outcomes there

that's a really important Nuance

something else that's come through a

couple times as you've been talking is

also something Patrick hson tweeted once

that has stuck with me which is this

idea of having a mental model in your

head of the user so the way he described

it and the way you've described it is

often times people are like cool we're

going to figure out what to build we're

going to do a bunch of research talk to

users that'll inform what we build and

we build it versus what you've been

saying and what he said is uh you do a

bunch of research look at data talk to

people that informs your mental model of

what the customer needs in their life

and then that informs what you build and

so that anytime you do more research

talk to customers it's informing your

view of the person and then you're like

oh this was different from what I

imagined or oh wow this is exactly what

we've been thinking and let's build that

anything along those lines that you

might want to share yeah I mean I I can

tell you a little bit about how we

manage our backlog which I think

actually ties directly into this we at

any given moment we have

probably like 20 or 30 like

opportunities that we could possibly

explore right just product opportunities

right like problems to solve uh areas to

you know to kind of improve for our

users but they're not they're not like

ready yet right they're like we don't

have enough conviction around how we

might approach it so we kind of just

accumulate understanding of this stuff

and sort of periodically we accumulate

some more stuff and then we like

reevaluate okay what is our current

understanding of how we might best

approach this thing and I I think

something that people sort of struggle

with is like they might have this model

in their head like a PM might have this

model in their head about how user

behaves but it's just like very hard to

share that with someone else you have to

you know you have to like telepathically

throw it into their brain which is hard

right so what we try to do is kind of

identify you know areas that we might

you know attack with a product but also

sort of keep an up-to-date analysis of

each of those areas so that everyone can

kind of like engage with it and also

contribute is there an example of

something that's sitting at road map I

don't know if you can share these sort

of things that just I sorry sitting in

the backlog of just like quite ready to

tackle this yet but here's something

we're in inkling on yeah sure um

capacity planning is is a thing that's

been sitting in our in our backlog and

uh it's it's something that we see

managers struggle with all the time

right which is like I have a limited

amount of you know personnel and

resources and I need to deploy them in

such a way where we can you know

theoretically accomplish our road map

but also we don't get blocked by some

bottleneck that we don't end up like

blocking all of the projects because

this one engineer is stuck on some infra

thing and you know that's a thing people

struggle with all the time all the

solutions out there are bad right like

the the best solution is a very very

custom uh spreadsheet that someone would

make and it's a lot of upkeep uh so we

have some ideas about how we might

automate this how we might use existing

you know data within linear to to really

help out with this problem and but I

don't think we've quite quite cracked it

yet right I think there's some nuances

that we have to really explore a little

bit further so we're kind of you know

continuously developing this and as we

hear from as we hear from users that are

struggling with this problem we will

like like you know get on a call with

them and and sit down with them and and

and talk through it and the idea there

is keep informing this mental model keep

informing what this could be until you

get to a place of like okay cool I think

we figured out what will really solve

this problem in an in an elegant way

yeah and I I I I want to really stress a

like a Nuance here which is like it's

it's not that we want to solve the

entire problem the entire problem is

like quite big right but there there's

something that's like really right for

linear to do that like help people you

know sort of have a have a good starting

point for them to sort of like reason

about it and uh and so I I think a lot

of like building conviction around stuff

is is not even like do we have a

workable solution it's like how much of

the problem should we actually take on

because if we take on too much of the

problem then we'll like end up over

promising and not being able to deliver

on it I think what's also useful here is

you all keep your team very small

intentionally and being constrained uh

keeps you from taking on these things

too early because uh you don't have the

engineers to build they designers yeah

that's uh that's true I I actually

hadn't really uh put that part together

but I think that's you know I think I

think some of the reason we we we've

done it this way is because we we know

we don't have the bandwidth of action

everything so we we kind of like you

know have this uh this backlog that we

maintain that make sure that we when we

do uh take it on we're we're we're

pretty set up for Success yeah it's

interesting I think a lot of companies

are starting to realize that that they

can build better products and move

faster with fewer teams I want to move

in a different direction and talk a bit

about how you actually think about

building new products something that uh

I've heard from you is that you have a

uh systemized way of being

creative which I think is kind of a

dream for a lot of people is like how do

I be more creative how do I think of new

Innovative Concepts you have a really

interesting process for how you do this

uh can you talk about it yeah totally I

I I think you know when people talk

about like being creative a lot of times

uh the what they have a problem with is

extrapolating right they can kind of see

the stuff that's right in front of them

but like what about two or three steps

down the line and then it's just like

well there's just so much possibility I

don't know what you know what direction

to go so the way that we try to do it is

we ask a question which is like okay how

how extreme can you take it like you're

designing a a product you're trying to

come up with a solution like what's the

most outrageous version of this along

some you know some some trait um I I

think like I don't know you guys did

this at arnb but I think Brian chesky

talks about like like like what's the 11

star experience is that is that the

thing you guys did that it was a thing

he talked about there's always a yeah

there's always a push of what's like the

10x version of some idea when you when

you think in that way right when you're

saying like hey what's the you know

what's the 11 star experience uh what

you're what you're really asking is like

hey what's like the most luxurious

version of this this like hotel stay or

like what's the most unforgettable you

know kind of uh experience we can give

people and you you throw away things

like I don't know like uh like like cost

you throw away things like practicality

right because that's that's not what's

interesting what's interesting is I I

want to actually explore the possibility

space and I think this is really

important to do because the the goal is

to get you to see beyond like your your

defaults right we have all these

constraints that we're operating under

that we like kind of psychically have in

the back of our heads that we just like

don't even realize we have them so just

a break past all of them and and then

you can really see what your options are

because you know we talk about like um

we talk about like product decisions is

like oh yeah you have like these choices

like what what are you going to decide

there's all this decision-making kind of

uh uh you know I know Theory right but

like the the biggest risk is you didn't

see the right choice to begin with right

you have these three Cho and like none

of them were right it's this fourth one

that was like over in this corner but

you didn't look in that corner so you

never found it and uh so I I think the

the whole goal of this is to try to you

know expand the the search space right

of of what you're trying to do so what

you're saying is people often uh don't

think uh out out of the box Enough by

kind of not thinking too radically

enough and so the choices they're

deciding between are just like oh

options and there's this process of

breaking out that and uh I think there's

like I think you could hear this and be

like yeah sure like I could spend like

10 minutes being like Oh what's the

craziest yeah but you're saying that

actually is what you do and that

actually works really well uh yeah and

you know you do and you you actually

build it right you you can think of a a

a very extreme version of a produ thing

like hey like let's actually for the

first version you know we talked about

like the first version you know it's not

really the right answer sometimes you

know it's so hard because you know it

like this is the most extreme version of

the answer so let's build that as fast

as we can and see how it feels and then

we're going to learn so much about like

what the right actual answer is because

we have seen this area of the product

space and really felt it awesome Let's

uh let's talk about an example of this

because this feels awesome yeah I I can

I can talk to an example actually is it

okay if I I demo something absolutely

let's do it show and tell let do that

right now here we go we're gonna share

screen all right um so this is just like

a like a demo space uh instead of linear

so the the the feature where we did this

that I I remember very clearly cuz it

was kind of recent um is we built this

uh this feature to save drafts for your

issues right so linear you know as hard

as an issue tracker if I if I make a new

issue uh and let's say I I'm you know

trying to report a bug or something

right so it's like I make a bug report

then uh you know I might start thinking

through like okay what are the Repro

steps and then I start typing them and

this happens all the time right when

you're at work you're doing this and

someone distracts you someone pings you

on slack or you have to go to a meeting

or something like that you're like I got

to put this away for a second I'll come

back to it later like you know note the

self you know figure out the actual

Repro steps and do it so like what can

you do like well you want to save it as

a draft so we're like okay this is the

this is the problem and the first uh

version of this right we like the most

what do we want to do like linear is

about being fast so we don't want to get

in your way we want to say like what is

the fastest draft saving experience

possible right so if you save it as

draft you can save it as draft if you

decide to not you want to throw it away

you don't want it uh just hit the x

button and we'll just throw it away

right we're not going to like interrupt

you with a popup that says like do you

want to save your changes or any of that

kind of stuff right we will just

absolutely get out of your way fast as

possible so we're like what's the risk

here well it might feel really unsafe

right if we if if you close this and we

we don't like ask if if you want a save

change you might feel like oh I just

lost my changes on accident we knew that

going in right we built this anyway and

uh yeah it felt super unsafe right it

turns out that you know that that that

sort of inkling that we had was true

right but and we really felt exactly how

how unsafe it was uh so then we were

like okay well what's the what's the

safest thing we could possibly do right

the safest thing is just autosave

everything right so you start you start

a new you know a

issue and then you start typing some

stuff and it's just like autoing as soon

as you type A Single Character and uh

that that did feel quite safe so cool um

but it also ended up like leaving behind

like a whole bunch of you know uh like a

paper trail of things you change your

mind about right like you've probably

had this happen in like uh document

tools where you have a whole bunch of

things in your in your space called like

Untitled document or like new document

or stuff like that it's just like so

many Untitled folders yeah so many

untitle folders right it's CU yeah

because the moment you like say new

folder it like starts saving it and then

you don't actually mean for that to

happen so uh so you know we we we had

those two sorts of variations that we

built and we we felt through and uh

where we ended up was like a sort of

balance between those two right and so

what happens is if I uh if I'm creating

a new issue like I am here uh and I

close it out it'll it'll interrupt me

we're like look we have to interrupt you

otherwise it feels too unsafe so I can

save the draft right I can go to my

drafts and then if I'm in this sort of

draft I've already made

and I go in there and I you know and I

start to say okay I'm going to keeping

on it but then I get interrupted again

then I'm just going to Auto it for you

there's no there's no point I'm not

going to ask you again I'm always going

to sa because I'm not going to create a

like a new object I'm just making

modifications in place so we made this

sort of very specific choice of like on

a brand new issue we will interrupt you

and then on a existing draft that you're

messing around with we're just going to

Auto saave everything and someone doing

a uh a sort of analysis right if they

like a detailed tear down of of these

decisions they might make they might say

like wow they they made very specific

choices here but the path to get there

is to do something totally extreme in

One Direction and then totally extreme

in another Direction and then find where

they they really meet such a good

example the way that you described it is

you went like here's the safest route

here's the fastest version uh where did

you come up with these list of options

and for folks that are trying to do this

for their company are these like because

these are linear principles like we're

going to be very fast is this like the

way you think most companies should

operate these sorts of attributes you

think it's like specific to what makes

their product different how do you think

about that I I think for a lot of

companies it's you have to you know ask

like what is the what is the promise

that your your product or your business

is making people you know it might be

you always have a car available if you

need it and if you do that then like

maybe we're going to have to implement

search pricing to make that happen right

like it's just it's always going to be

available so here's here's the trade-off

that we have to make it's like a very

extreme point of view to do that or you

might say like the price is always

predictable but sometimes you can't have

a car in the first place like those are

all sort of choices that you get to make

and you you kind of have to sort of

decide like where in that Spectrum does

it make sense you know based on the

promise of your company a lot of people

talk about this idea of working

backwards FR JB was a big concept of

working backwards from the ideal let's

design the best possible scenario and

work backwards uh I love that this is

even more tactical which is just pick

the extreme version of very specific

attributes

probably not the sing not the ideal but

it'll give us insight into a version of

the ideal and an element that works well

and then what doesn't yeah exactly I I

did this a lot actually atbb just like

testing the extreme uh so it super

resonates this idea and when you say

test so was it like you build it and

play with it do you roll it out to like

some of these Circles of users or is it

often just internal and then you like

learn and then iterate yeah we we we

roll out some of these versions to to

people so the the the the super fast

version that was a little that was

unsafe that only went internal and

everyone felt it was too unsafe but then

then we like okay let's go to super safe

version and then we roll that out and

everyone started having a whole bunch of

and we did the like how how many drafts

are people making like this is too many

like the people are leaving behind like

this crazy paper trail okay we gotta we

got to figure out some some some

difference here awesome so this very

much connects to your first point of get

some get things out really quick and in

this case it's like extreme versions

you're probably not going to that are

not going to work long term but it will

teach you yeah exactly amazing okay and

seeing it in action I'm like okay

obviously this is the solution that's

how the way this should feel yeah and to

your point it was not an obvious

solution when you started thinking about

it yeah I mean the best Solutions are

always obvious in hindsight right and

it's just like you have to develop a a

process internally that to eventually

find your way

there something else that you've

mentioned when we were chatting that

connects to some of the things we've

been talking about is you have this

perspective that B2B software isn't just

solving people's problems it's also

teaching them how to work and it's kind

of this like accumulation of information

talk about that because I thought that

was really fascinating you know I I I

think like if you think about how a lot

of B2B software gets created it's

because there was some person in the

middle of some giant company who

implemented some kind of process and

they're like wow this process is really

working for us maybe we should make it

easier and they build a little tool

internally and then like all of their

you know colleagues can now like press

on button and good things happen and

then they turn that process and that

tool you know they spin it off into a

startup and they like make it start this

this process repeats thousands of times

so when you adopt that tool you're not

just adopting like the the actual

software you're adopting the idea that

this is a practice that you ought to be

doing in the first place so you know

like if you're if you're a marketing

person right and you like you adopt some

marketing software you're not just

saying like Okay now I can you know kind

of write emails and send them to people

there's all sorts of process around that

like like you you're organizing stuff

into campaigns you're measuring

clickthrough rates you're like

calculating you know cost of acquisition

and all that stuff probably comes

equipped with a tool because those are

the right practices to do when you're

when you're doing this sort of uh

marketing exercise and you know whether

you knew about it before right or you

learned it from uh from the tool like as

a as a buyer for uh for this kind of

product what I'm doing is I'm saying

like hey I'm going to bring in this

Baseline level of marketing competency

into my organization right that like

this is the worst we can do is whatever

the tool defaults are interesting so

it's you're basically buy into a way of

working when you're adopting a piece of

software not just have this problem and

need solved yeah exactly and I I think

the the most um the most like Salient

example of this is if you've ever seen

uh like a like a company adopt like an

Erp product it's the most painful thing

you can imagine right they have to they

have to you know it's doing deep surgery

they have to re redo all of their uh

internal processes and the way they man

inventory and all this kind of stuff but

they're willing to do it because they

know that this is a battl tested way of

making sure that you know you you're

actually doing good um like management

of of of resources so they're like like

we're growing up now it's time for us to

adopt these best practices in order to

do that we have to adopt this tool and

we will conform to whatever the tool is

bestes to do this connects a couple

things I know about linear one is what

you've shared of just avoiding these

customizations requests from people like

you have a very opinionated way of

here's why we here's how you should

operate in order to build a great

functioning product org and Company in

general so I think like I'm just

Connecting Threads here one is like

we're gonna avoid letting people

customize too much because we know they

will have a bad time and then two is

yeah just this idea of uh we are

opinionated about the way you should

work in linear and it's like you have a

linear method I think it's called of

just like here's how product team should

operate based on everything we've seen

be successful yeah yeah it's it's

definitely connected in a way and I I I

think sometimes when when people talk

about um you mentioned like being

opinionated and I think sometimes when

people talk about being opinionated it

can feel like they're almost saying like

hey this is like kind of arbitrary right

like your opinion and my opinion they're

just two opinions man like like you know

neither is right or wrong what we try to

do is find where there's actual

consensus right amongst a lot of

different uh High performing teams and

then we can you know take those

practices and say like okay for a team

that isn't you know already practicing

this can we give them a button so that

they can start practicing this right

when when when the company we see

companies like doing a really good job

of managing their triage q and but you

know it's like you know it's very manual

we okay can we automate this and then

for this other company that really needs

it that they don't know this is what

they need can we just give them a button

to activate this and now they have to

practice within their or two so I think

a takeaway here is when you choose a

tool uh recognize it's going to change

the way you operate and be thoughtful

about is this the way we want to work

versus just we just have a problem we

once solved yeah exactly I want to come

back to something kind of a thread

that's come up a couple times in our

chat is the the way you

collaborate uh internally it feels like

there's a pretty unique way you you said

you're on all the sales calls is there

anything that you can share about how

you collaborate internally how the

different functions collaborate that may

be unlike how other companies operate

that might be helpful for them to learn

from yes something that's worked really

really well for us is uh we think of

product management as as partially like

a go to market discipline in the same

way that sales and marketing are right

like when when you talk to people and

like hey like tell me how product

management works in your company they'll

probably say something about like well

there's engineering product and design

they work in this Triad and here's you

know here's how they they interact and

collaborate and we all kind of

understand why that's useful why it's

helpful uh but this sort of other form

of collaboration between product

management uh sales and marketing I

think it's something that's like

probably um really UND examined and

often know often I I feel like in

organizations you actually see kind of

like some antagonism between product and

and like sales and marketing and I think

that's kind of a shame right because you

know when when we uh come kind of come

together the way we think about um you

know the the way that we think about

selling is a matter of like especially

because we sell to we sell to very sort

of expert practitioners and they have

like a they have a very sensitive BS

detector right so like we like a big

part of what we try to do is we try to

help them pick um which I help our

marketing team like pick exactly like

the right word and the right phrasing to

make us sound like native to the

language that our customers speak and

also talk about engineers is my is my my

sense right yeah like Engineers is a is

a big one but even product managers

right like product managers kind of know

when you know like they know what the

job is like so when you kind of come in

you say the wrong words people kind of

like give you a give you the stink eye

don't call them project managers yeah

exactly like for for example so I I

think that's a that's a big part of uh

you know what we have to do right so

like we you know on the on our on our PM

team we actually have a full-time

product marketer right and her job is to

like you know like tactically it's like

all the change logs come from her all

the release notes right and also like

the you know she's she's always crafting

the language for whatever upcoming

release that we're uh we're building and

you know working with directly with the

teams and try to figure out how to talk

about it and then once we you know go

out and build the campaigns um build

assets and things like that like that's

where that's where a lot of the language

is coming from it's coming from the work

that she's doing uh and then you know

with sales like they're validating all

that message like in the field right

they're they're saying the words to

customers directly and telling you if

it's like sticking or not and then you

can kind of like you know have a really

good feedback cycle uh between those

three disciplines what I've seen you uh

refer to this way of working as is a

double triangle which is I think a

complement to like the PM engineer

designer talk about that and give us a

visual what that looks like yeah I know

I I think PMS right like product

managers we we often have a a tough time

like trying to explain like what what is

your job right like you know well it's

like a little bit of everything yeah and

I I think the you know the job that I

sort of uh do right that we see it as is

uh you're taking the sort of building

side of the organization and the the

selling side of the organization bring

them together that's you know you're

taking all of the commercial like

motivations and goals of the company and

making sure that what you build it

actually solves for those uh those goals

and you know you're you're sort of

tempering that with like what's you know

possible and uh and sort of where the

opportunities are to to actually build

stuff so I like to me like it's it's the

PM in the middle and then you have

engineering product design and then

sales marketing product management on

the other side PM was always in the

middle indeed uh but I think that's true

from the perspective of PM and I I love

I love this visual of just like the PM

is connecting the builders to the

sellers and you're involved in both

worlds this connects very directly to

Bri JK's whole thing about how PMS are

are should be doing marketing and so the

way they changed it are being every PM

is also pmm and there's no more they're

product marketers now that's their title

and that's like the extreme version of

what you're describing yeah yeah it is

and I think Apple's been doing that way

for forever too got it so the advice

here is if you're a PM at a B2B business

uh lean into the sales and marketing

side of it leaning into the go to market

yeah and in fact if if you're if you're

leaving something on the table right in

terms of like the kind of impact that

you are having at your job that's

probably the thing that you're leaving

on the table you're probably already

doing a good job of you know

collaborating with engineering and uh

and design right it's probably the sort

of cell side that you're that you're uh

you know kind of There's an opportunity

for you to have more impact just to make

it even more concrete for PMS that are

like okay I want to do this I W to I

want to do what linear is doing I'm

going to get more sales what does it

look like when someone is more uh is in

this double triangle working more

closely with sales you talked about

being on sales calls what else there can

you share of just like here try these

things I I think originate the message

that you uh that you sent to your

audience right like there's a lot of

things that marketing does which you're

never going to necessarily touch right

there's always like demand gen and

figuring out channel strategy and all

this kind of stuff like sure right

that's a pure marketing concern but

actually picking the words and what

where the emphasis is like you should

understand the customer at a pretty deep

level probably deeper than any other uh

like group at the company because you

know because of the the kinds of

requirements Gathering discovery that

you're doing so you're going to f you're

going to know the native language that

your customer speaks a lot better and uh

know help your marketing team originate

those words got it so basically be

really involved in the in the product

marketing the writing the the emails the

headlines the website yeah yeah exactly

and it's I I know like the word product

marketing is also so overloaded they do

so many different things and but that

it's that sort of like content you know

kind of creation piece that's uh that

you really have an opportunity to

contribute to yeah I love how concrete

that is it's like don't think about this

concept product marketing just think

about the words that your potential

customers and customers

see okay uh final area I want to spend a

little time on is totally different it's

around getting a job oh yeah okay you

have a pretty unique uh approach to

finding a gig uh I heard from the

founder of mode about the very unique

appro way you approached getting a job

there I imagine linear is a similar boat

uh what what advice can you share with

folks that are looking for a job maybe

struggling that worked for you when you

were looking for your next gig product

management is a kind of a unique role

right like because we do just about

everything there you don't really get

pigeon hold into you know being sort of

compared along a single Dimension with

everyone else and everyone who's hiring

PMS just like when they're hiring execs

they're they're they're kind of hoping

that they bring them on to solve some

burning problem that they they have and

uh so it's your job when you're in the

in the interview process to figure out

what that burning problem is right so

like put on your your your Discovery hat

right and go figure out like what is the

actual sort of like job to be done

of the hiring manager when they're

bringing on a new PM onto their team and

if you can do that right and then make a

good case that you are the person to

solve that problem then hiring you

becomes a sort of like binary choice

between do I hire the solution to my

problem or do I hire someone else and

and I think what what ends up happening

a lot is when we're you know when you're

in a uh interview process you're just

like trying to put your best foot

forward trying to say that you're you're

great at everything you have like very

few weaknesses maybe you try too hard

like whatever it is right and and then

you but everyone's going to say that so

you're just like one of in people and

you want to make yourself a little bit

of like just you versus the field right

like you are the solution to a problem

and then everyone else is a you know

sort of like a a rule of the dice so the

way you're describing it is uh the

company has a job to be done say it's

Drive growth of some feature uh in this

case it's like for just building a

killer success ful B2B product I don't

know that's that's a broad one like

usually you're not interviewing for head

a product role so that's maybe too broad

so it's like what is this PM rolls job

to be done at the company and then help

convince them you are the best person to

solve to do that job and solve this

problem for them yeah and and a lot of

times when you when you take that

approach it'll feel like you already

work there right and like the the way

that I I I did this I got advice from a

friend he said like I was interviewing

for this job at mode that you that you

uh referenced and I'm like how should I

approach it he's like just act like you

already worked there what would you do

and uh and then it's like okay I could

do that so then when you're in this

interview process and someone um you

know you know someone's asking you a

question they goes you have any

questions for me like you can ask them

like what are your okrs this quarter how

can someone help you achieve those right

you can like be that specific about like

they're like oh yeah sure I can tell you

about like the exact thing that I'm

doing this quarter and then then you'll

have some level of intelligence about

like what's you know what people are

actually trying to solve uh because I

think often we just like get stuck like

in these very high level General types

of questions like what what are you know

what's the company goal all that kind of

stuff and it's like no you can get

really specific like if you were

collaborating with that person in your

job like what would you say to them I

love how actionable this advice is

there's obviously an element of like

this takes work and time uh a lot of

people are interviewing at a lot of

companies trying to find a job uh is

part of your advice like pick the ones

you're most excited about and invest

invest a lot of time in in this in this

way of interviewing you know you you can

invest a lot in the ones where you know

that you're going to be able to overd

deliver on right if you understand what

they're actually trying to solve then

you know where you're going to have a

both a highest chance of success of

getting hired but also like doing a

really great job on the other end of it

and you talk about how like pretending

you have the job pretend you actually

have this job as part of the interview

process uh often times as an outsider

you don't have enough information to

like have a really good thought on what

the solution is and maybe part of it is

going to be so like wrong because you're

like I don't actually know I don't have

the data do you actually try to reach

out to the engineers and designers on

the team to try to understand things how

far do you go to try to solve these

problems and show them what you can do

yeah I mean you know you're in the

interview Loop right these are people

that you're going to be working closely

with so start start there right do do

your Discovery questions and uh if

there's an area that you think you want

to dig you can ask you right there's

there's there's no har asking hey can

you put me in touch with an engineering

manager who's like working on the same

problem and and you know if if no one

else is asking again you're going to

have an extra piece of feedback from

that in manager and say yeah like this

guy asked like really good questions and

it seems like they're you know they're

really with it like no one else is gonna

have that piece of feedback so during

the during the debrief process and just

asking that question alone will show

them how deeply you're thinking about

this already yeah amazing nonan is there

anything else that we have not covered

that you want to touch on or share or

you think might be helpful to listeners

before we get to a very exciting

lightning

round uh you know I I I have a very

specific uh point of view on deadlines I

don't know if that's

a fire

away you I I I think like what often

happens is people get depressed about

deadlines right it's like hey here's the

here's the ship date and then you never

make it you know I don't know if you

you've had this feeling before

uh you you were an engineer before too

right so it's just like Engineers is

better like oh yeah yeah deadlines

they're just they're they're complete

Fabrications um and the only way to make

deadlines real is to take them so

seriously that they are basically like a

pzero problem and like everything else

has to not matter in comparison to the

deadline because that that's the that's

the only way you're going to be able to

signal to the team and also to all the

stakeholders that you're actually taking

it seriously so you know my my feeling

on deadlines is don't have too many of

them right and when you do uh it's a p

zero so the engineers working on it they

don't get to work on anything else like

someone's oh I need them for this like

don't nope you're not pulling them off

of anything we're doing this uh as a PM

your job is just cut as much scope as

possible to make it possible to hit that

deadline right like what are the things

actually blocking us from doing it

because what what you want to do is at

the moment where you have to make the go

no go call on whether the

ship you want to be able to actually

have a product that you can say yes to

right it doesn't it might not have all

the features you had wanted or whatever

it is and you can say no right you can

make that choice but you want to set

yourself up uh to be in a position where

you can actually say yes or no to

something cuz like what often happens is

like we want this thing well it's not

even close to being done yet so there's

no possible way we can say yes right I

can't ship it it's just it's it's like

half broken it's like no no no you want

to get to a point where it works right

it might not be the product that you

want but it is an actual real product

that you can conceivably ship so you

said that uh don't have too many

deadlines but when you do make sure you

everyone understands these are actual

deadlines

uh when do you decide it's worth having

a deadline is it like a marketing launch

sort of thing what's worthy of a

deadline in your experience yeah it's

it's it's usually having to do with some

kind of external uh marketing type of

exercise that you're you're trying to

trying to hit got it and uh and I I

think that that's like the other thing

that I I think as as Builders we we we

can often look at like launch dates and

stuff like that it's like oh you know

who cares if it's a little bit later or

we skip this this change log or whatever

it is and I think that that's you you

know that's that's really uh I don't

know it makes me go crazy when I hear

people say that in in all honesty um you

know I I with with marketing

communication customers you basically

have a limited amount of of

opportunities to do so right a year is

365 days there are 12 months right each

of those months has about four weeks

like there's some Rhythm where you get

to have 50ish weeks to say something to

your audience you know once a week or

you get to have 12 months to say

something really big or four quarters to

say something huge

if you miss one of those opportunities

you don't get it back again you can't

like time travel back and say like okay

actually let's redo first quarter and

like say this message that we wish we we

could have gotone down to the into the

field that is such a powerful Point uh I

could see the sales uh marketing go to

market element of your job coming out

there uh I imagine everyone that's in

that feeli is like yes this is exactly

right maybe just a last question along

this line so I love this idea of taking

deadlines very seriously when you commit

to a deadline at the same time as you

pointed out creates a lot of stress

knowing there's a deadline we have to

hit so one lever you mentioned is

cutting scope another is just people

spending more time estimating to have

more accurate deadlines you invest in

that how do you think about just like

for an engineering team to commit to a

deadline how much to spend on like

drisking and estimating versus just

let's just do our best and then we'll

cut and adjust you know this this this

might be my hotake but we do almost no

estimating in order to hit deadlines

what we what we do right is we ship as

early as we can so if if you know the

thing we talked about earlier were like

if by the time that 10% of the time has

elapsed you have a working thing you can

now spend the rest of the time deciding

whether or not you want to do another

iteration or you want to polish that

thing and get it to be a shipable state

right so you're you're you're kind of

setting up your future self to be able

to make that decision so none of this is

you know you you you can't you can't go

into this at the at the very last moment

say like okay now we have to take the

deadline seriously right you kind of

have to do it from the beginning and

commit to the process of going very fast

iterating early and then putting

yourself in a position where you can say

yes or no to a

product so interesting and so different

from the way most companies operate uh

Nan this was everything I was hoping it

be I think this is going to help a lot

of people build much better product uh

which would be good for the world if

more products are like linear with that

we reached our very exciting lightning

round uh are you ready uh yeah let's do

it okay let's do it okay first question

what are two or three books that you

have recommended most to other

people I I think the one book that I

recommend the most is uh the Design of

Everyday Things by Don Norman I read it

originally in college for an HCI class I

was taking and I think of of everything

I've ever read it's the thing that sort

of caused me to see the world from the

perspective of everything you interact

with is a product right every single you

know every pencil that you use every

door that you open is a is a product

that somebody designed and is that is

that the big takeaway from that book

because it comes up a lot and I think

and it's such an old book and so I guess

for someone that hasn't read or maybe

doesn't have time to readed is the big

takeaway for you uh someone designed

everything and there's a reason things

aren't great and and they can be

improved yeah I mean I I I saw this the

other day I was at a cafe uh in my

neighborhood and I saw a kid rip a

handle off a door like of the cafe he

like pulled it so hard it came right off

because it was a push door but it had a

handle that looked like you could pull

it and that's that's like one of the

canonical examples of the book is

Mysteries yeah awesome uh next question

do you have a favorite recent movie or

TV show you've really enjoyed uh I've uh

I watched the Diplomat on on Netflix I

think it was um terrific you know it's

really fun easy easy watch it has like

some like West Wing Vibes if you were

into that back in the day yeah have you

seen the second season uh yeah I

finished the second season yeah I wasn't

as excited about the second season just

to put that out there the first season

was really good and then just kind of

went off a little like okay I guess I

guess it's cool but yeah it got a little

uh like spy Thriller I think yeah yeah

okay cool but still really good and on

Netflix okay cool do have a favorite

product you recently discovered that you

really like I didn't Discover it but I

discovered a a version of it that was

really interesting um there's a there's

a pen uh actually I have I have one on

my desk it's like it's called like the

Sakura Micron I don't know if you use

these it's like a felt tip pen it's

really great right like you know it was

originally invented like in Japan for

like artists to like draw like like

comic book books and stuff and uh you

know you can use it for anything you I

use it for journaling or whatever um but

I I I was on Amazon I was looking you

know I was trying to buy more and I

found a package that said like a Bible

study kit I was like why is why is this

labeled Bible study kit and it was it

was literally just the pen and like in

like four different colors and it was

because like the thing doesn't bleed

through pages so if you have like a

Bible which they often have these kind

of like really flimsy kind of newsprint

pages it's not going to bleed through

and uh and it's just really interesting

to me that someone marketed like a

normal package of these pens as a Bible

study kit and for people who like were

looking for that keyword and it's like

it was like official too it was not some

something hacked together it was like

actually like an official packaging of

this amazing what a unique pen Choice

two more questions do you have a

favorite life motto that you often come

back to and find useful in work or in

life the the correct amount is too much

minus one and I think this this like

kind of ties into like the try the

extreme version of it of a thing where

I don't know like a stupid example like

how much pizza do you want to eat it's

like well five slices was too many I

feel bad then four was probably the

right number right and then if you want

to find the right number sometimes you

just have to like really shoot for the

edge and then find out what's too much

and then you'll find out exactly what

the right amount is I love how tactical

that is uh makes me think about Elon

musk's thing about cutting things like

one of his formulas for just getting

stuff done one of them is just like cut

stuff before trying to optimize it and

and uh and automate it and his advice is

if you don't bring back 10% of things

you cut you're not cutting enough yeah

exactly final question you worked at

everlane for a number of years and uh

you shared the rough idea of a story

around a shirt maybe our bestseller that

they have now uh and how you helped

create a bestselling women's shirt can

you share that story uh yeah so I mean

to be to be clear I I I witnessed the

creation I don't I don't think I had a

direct hand in it but um

uh yeah so you know I I I saw this

advertisement the other day uh on

Instagram for for it's called the

women's box Cut tea and it's it's a it's

a t-shirt that's like kind of wide and

and short right for women and uh and I I

looked and they had like 20 colors of it

and it's like I and it's it sells super

well and I remember when we when we

created this thing and it was because

there was a batch of um defective men's

t-shirts they all came in like an inch

and a half too short and so like we

couldn't sell them right you would have

your your belly button sticking out like

no one wants aware of that and uh and

then so what we we did was like we had

to salvage the inventory because we were

a very small company and we had to make

cash flow and you know we couldn't just

we couldn't just damage it out so uh so

you know the the design team and the

marketing team kind of came together and

they said okay here's what we're gonna

do we're gonna cut another two inches

off of this and make it really cropped

right and Market it towards women as

like a cropped boxy silhouette and uh

and we and we we did that we're like

okay hopefully you know hopefully we can

we can salvage this this inventory and

not have to like take a write down it

sold out in like a week and I like oh

okay I guess we just made a hit product

and it's it's like one of these things

where uh it's very hard to know what

this was right was this like a marketing

thing was this a design thing I don't

know but you just kind of come together

and you you you find like the right

product Market fit in like the weirdest

way I love that it's still going yeah

it's still going like originally it was

just white now there's like 20 Colors oh

man I love how many Industries you have

worked in fashion data analytics project

management I don't know what's next

there's more I imagine Nan this was

incredible I really appreciate making

time for this like I said I think we're

going to have helped a lot of people

build better products two final

questions where can folks finding online

if they want to reach out and learn more

and how can listeners be useful to you

yeah uh I'm I'm on x/ Twitter as the the

nonu it's th and then my name um and uh

you know if they have any uh feedback

about linear uh you know we're we're

very happy to take it um especially you

know for people who kind of like use it

in their uh in their day-to-day we want

to hear from uh from users what's the

best way for them to share that is it

tweet at you is it go to the website

what do you recommend oh yeah you can

tweet at us you can uh you can DM me on

on Twitter my DMs are open so it's all

it's all good amazing nonan thank you so

much for being here yeah of course thank

L bye

everyone thank you so much for listening

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