Long time wildlife researcher Irene Amoke explains why the Mara will survive.

Welcome to the Masimara podcast. A new

episode featuring starring I should say Irene Amoke. Welcome Irene.

Irene Amoke. Welcome Irene.

>> Thank you so much Steve.

>> For people who may not know too much about you Irene. Let's start by you giving us a little bit of pottered history. Who are you and what you're all

history. Who are you and what you're all about and what have you been doing these past years?

>> Well my name is Irene Mo. As you said I'm a landscape ecologist by training.

meaning I'm really interested in looking at wild spaces but from a very comprehensive view. So looking at how

comprehensive view. So looking at how the people who live there affect the ecosystem and how the wildlife reacts to that. And my wish has always been that

that. And my wish has always been that the work that I do is able to um guide policy and feedback into management of

these wild spaces. Um so for the past two years I've been a private consultant in conservation. So working with

in conservation. So working with conservation organizations who have strategic plans but are looking to make an impact. So working with them to move

an impact. So working with them to move from strategy to impact. Um prior to that I ran the Kenya Wildlife Trust um and worked there as well as a program

manager for the past 10 years. So it

feels like a really long time. And the

Kenya Wildlife Trust has a footprint in the Masimara ecosystem which is you know why we we're speaking here. But I've

been working in the Mara for close to 20 years. Went there for the very first

years. Went there for the very first time as an undergraduate student and then went back and did um a three-year PhD based around tourism in the Mara and

how these tourism facilities are impacting the Mara's wildlife. So I feel a really deep connection um to the Mara ecosystem.

>> Let's dive straight in there. Um tell

tell us what you've seen over 20 years in the Masai Mara. I mean, I've been going there on and off for for probably longer than that, but you've been much further on the ground, deeper into what's happening. What What have you

what's happening. What What have you seen over 20 years? What are the trends?

>> Um, I think, you know, going in as a teenager for the very first time, it was this vast wilderness area with a lot of wildlife. You know, you start seeing the

wildlife. You know, you start seeing the wildlife even before you get to Second Gate, which was, you know, several decades ago, the main entryway into into

the Mara. And obviously over the years

the Mara. And obviously over the years that's changed. The land has been

that's changed. The land has been subdivided. The number of animals you

subdivided. The number of animals you see and the quantities have reduced. But

I've got to say that anytime I go to the mara, it feels like a new experience. So

there's something about the mara that keeps drawing you in. And I know we talk a lot about the challenges facing the mara and sometimes it sounds very scary and very dire, but I think it's a very

resilient ecosystem. and and for me

resilient ecosystem. and and for me anytime I go there I feel refreshed and just being in the wilderness has been you know it's it's a special thing but

you know we've got to admit there are several challenges facing them and you know how do we as a collective come together to address some of these challenges >> the whole point of this podcast is to to

provide a platform for people of different perspectives to to come and tell us what's going on from their point of view and I think you sit very neatly in the middle of a lot perspectives. We

have um academic researchers who just add up the numbers and say it's in dire straits. We have people from the county

straits. We have people from the county government saying it's okay. We have a management plan. It's under control.

management plan. It's under control.

What's your take on it? Is is it out of control in terms of both ecology and tourism or is it actually struggling as you say and is resilient enough to handle it all?

>> I think both perspectives are correct in the way. Um I did my research in the

the way. Um I did my research in the mara and you know was able to chart out the difference in wildlife um distribution and densities over time

over the past I looked at data from the ' 70s and could see that the numbers were reducing and you know obviously it's it's um it's a system that has ups

and downs um and so yes the numbers are reducing the pressures are getting more you know there are lots of droughts long droughts there's flooding there's a lot

more fencing coming up. Um, livestock

numbers have gone up, people have increased. And so I think those are the

increased. And so I think those are the challenges. But then, you know, thinking

challenges. But then, you know, thinking about what the county council is saying and what they're trying to do. And yes,

they are doing more than what was being done 10 years ago. Having that

management plan in place, I think, is is a huge step forward. It's the first step in trying to write some of these wrongs that have occurred. But I think there's

still a lot more work to be done and a lot more people need to come you know together to do this work. Um and you look at things like the conservies which

has in effect you know doubled the protect the number the size of the protected area you know it's the conservies covered almost the same

amount of land as the national reserve.

And so yes, I think you know we give credit where credit is due while still recognizing that there are challenges that are occurring in the landscape.

Some driven by by human beings but others are you know driven by climatic variables. So how do we balance those?

variables. So how do we balance those?

So I think the two schools of thought need to come together and agree on a common ground and I think there have been there's a lot of talk and a lot of

meetings about you know what's the best way forward for for this ecosystem.

>> You can't talk about land use in Kenya without talking about politics. Um

neither you or I are politicians so we can probably risk a little bit into dipping into that one. Um the fencing of course beyond the conservances towards the the iton plains and the loiter

plains has been for the wildlife a disaster. Um and there's the political

disaster. Um and there's the political issue of of cattle grazing where perhaps they are not supposed to. Um are those issues just pushed to the side or are they being faced up to?

>> I think they're being faced up to. In I

think it was 2017 2018 a paper was published by a group of us in the Mara and researchers from Arus University in Denmark and they mapped the growth of

fences you know over the past 30 years in in the Mara ecosystem and you know reading that paper and looking at those maps it's quite it's scary if then you

project the growth of fences using that data and being on the ground and being and seeing these fences has come up. You

know, on one day you're driving along this road and this open space and then tomorrow you go and there's there's a fence there. I think that is is an issue

fence there. I think that is is an issue that's been recognized and I think there's an appreciation of the impacts of those fences not just on wildlife but

on people and livestock as well. You

know, livestock then have to move longer distances to get water and to get pasture. And you know when you drive

pasture. And you know when you drive across the Marin you see wildlife hanging off the fences it's it's a bit of a reality check on what needs to be

done and then the issue of livestock as you said I think there is the politics of it but then you know the human side

of it as well is you know if we are encouraging people to set aside land for wildlife and take out livestock there

has to be a balance Where will the livestock graze? The conservies have,

livestock graze? The conservies have, you know, really good grazing plans, but I guess that's not enough if livestock are still getting into into the reserve,

but it's also a matter of numbers and how do you manage those numbers? How do

you provide enough food for for the livestock? So, it's a lot of questions.

livestock? So, it's a lot of questions.

Um not sure what all the answers are but there are ideas that you know have been put out there and a lot of them are already being worked on with a lot of

good people um both private sector researchers and also from the county government.

>> It is a living ecosystem isn't it and humans are part of that. Uh the the challenge being obviously that the human population has escalated dramatically more than any of the other species that

that we share the uh the area with. Um

is is population a big um issue? Is that

being faced up to again in any way?

>> Yeah, it is. I mean I think you know you had um a conversation with Joseph and he talked about the numbers of wildlife the populations declining except for rhinos

and elephants because they have special protection. And as you said, it's a

protection. And as you said, it's a living ecosystem. So as we're talking

living ecosystem. So as we're talking about wildlife, we've got to talk about the people and people do need places to live in. And I think there is

live in. And I think there is acknowledgement that the population has gone up. But there's also, you know,

gone up. But there's also, you know, immigration into the Mara. There are

people from other parts of the country that come to the mara because of tourism and the livelihoods that they get from the mara. I think part of the um

the mara. I think part of the um ecosystem management plan that was passed at the same time as the national reserve plan was how to set up proper

urban centers. So the special planning

urban centers. So the special planning aspect of it, you know, where do you set up towns and where do you put the resources, the social amenities that

people need so that it's not a scattered across the ecosystem as it is now because there are planned towns, yes, but they're also unplanned town centers

that come up and with that you've got schools and churches and clinics. So I

think the urban planning aspect of the ecosystem plan and the county special plan needs to be I guess dealt with a bit more urgently than it currently is

because the first time I went to the mara secondani and tale were really small centers and now they are you know bustling

you know business um points with banks and big hospitals which is a good sign of development.

But at what cost to the environment?

>> Yeah, absolutely. Um,

you mentioned NOS's. There must have been an awful lot of people trying to do their best from many different aspects.

In your time with the Kenya Wildlife Trust, was there a great deal of cooperation with all the other NOS's that work in the Mara?

>> Um, yeah, I think there's conservation organizations, the development organizations. Then we've got the

organizations. Then we've got the academic sector where it's students coming in and just doing research because they need to finish up their

PhDs or their M's programs. But they get a lot of really interesting data, a lot of really interesting information that then needs to be filtered back in in a

way that makes sense to the managers and the policy makers. But the conservation organizations that are based in the MARA, you know, long-term like Kenya Wildlife Trust's MARA Predator

Conservation Program, we've got the Mara Elephant Project. There's MEP um sorry,

Elephant Project. There's MEP um sorry, the Pangolin Project. We've got the Maraucha project. There's a lot of them

Maraucha project. There's a lot of them and the development organizations, the M Trust, and you know, a lot of clinics as well and church run organizations. And

you know when I was at KWT and I'm still you know part of KWT externally um there was a move to try and bring people together to speak in one voice

and that was when the one mara research hub was created to try and get all these researchers into one room and speaking in one united voice because also having

you know 10 20 different researchers going to the government or the county government, we then look a bit disorganized. And so

the one mar research hub was born out of the need to speak with a united voice and I think that makes it stronger and through that there have been a lot of

very interesting you know results out that have been put out communicated well because you know as scientists we are not the best communicators I've got to

admit. So, how do we learn how to talk

admit. So, how do we learn how to talk to managers in a way that's not putting up barriers? How do we talk to

up barriers? How do we talk to communities and pass on the outcomes of our research in a way that's understandable to them but also gives

them a space to feedback and give us their thoughts and opinions and so that's you know been happening and um you know having crossber conversations

as well between the mar and sangetti and that happens annually so I think there is definitely more room to grow But there's been

progress in terms of bringing people together and having all the people who work in the MARA find an avenue of passing on um their results and their

recommendations because not everyone reads scientific papers.

>> One question I always like to ask which is more important conservation or tourism because you can't have tourism without the the wildlife being there.

But again in your experience and and now speaking personally perhaps just an opinion is there too much tourism in the mar?

>> I think so.

I think there is a lot of tourism facilities for sure and you know I always say that tourism is the consumer of wildlife and not consumer in a way

that they eat it but the people who benefit the most directly from wildlife is the tourism sector. So my challenge

to the tourism sector has always been why not put a lot into this product that you use to make a profit because if the product is gone then you have no

business and you have no profits. Um so

there is always a bit more that can be done but tourism is a way of life for a lot of people in the mara and it pro it

you know sustains livelihood. So, it's I think it's about the balance and making sure that tourism is done in a way that's respectful, you know, to the wildlife, to the landscape, but even

more importantly to the people who live there because tourists come and go, but the communities, you know, stay there and the in a way the custodians of of

that ecosystem.

So I think tourism can be you know a force for good but then it can also be a force for destruction. O

destruction. O >> over time there are very many more indigenous Kenyans well educated Kenyans like yourself who become involved in various aspects of both research and

tourism and other aspects um AC across Kenya. Um are younger Kenyans interested

Kenya. Um are younger Kenyans interested in wildlife? Is this a driving force for

in wildlife? Is this a driving force for the Gen Z's?

Yes. Yes, it is. I think there's a very big awareness of a lot more things like, you know, when I was in my 20ies, I was not as aware as the current 20 year

olds. So, they have more to say about

olds. So, they have more to say about conservation and how about how land is used and, you know, they're not shy and they're not scared of, you know, putting

their opinions out there. So I think part of the conversation needs to be with the young people with the Gen Z's and Gen Alpha and you know whoever is

there because they've got an opinion and they will shout about the opinion and you know the land use also affects them because if they are going to inherit that land from their parents then they

want to have a say and they want to have a say now they don't want to wait 30 or 40 years later. So they've they've got a lot to say and I think having

conversations that include them, you know, is the only way to go. Honestly,

thinking about people who may be planning coming to the Mara and hearing all these different perspectives, but still just would love for their their lifetime bucket list to come and see the most magnificent wildlife spectacle on

planet Earth. Should people still come

planet Earth. Should people still come or should they keep away?

>> Absolutely. I think the mara is a huge resource for Kenya but it's something that needs to be shared with people. I I

think people need to come to the mara. I

would say, you know, the mara is open all year around. It's not just during the migration because that's the high season and everyone has this, I guess,

perspective that you see the most during the high season, but if you go to the mara right now, there's so much to see.

There's so much to do. So, I think it's broadening, you know, the experiences that are available in the mara. you know

there are forests there's hiking that can be done in the mar and sometimes even just understanding how the people live and how the culture of the masai is

very integral to to that ecosystem so yes come but it doesn't have to be in June know you can come in February you can come in April and you know for anyone listening now is a really good

time to visit the mara >> and and the odd thing is you if you have a competent driver guide who who knows tomorrow like the back of their hands as most of them do. They can take you to

places where you won't see another tourist or another car. It's

extraordinary like that.

>> Exactly. And I think there's also, you know, everyone who has a list of things they want to see and the big five and the big charismatic animals which I

think is very fine to see, but the mara also has a lot of interesting, you know, angulates and you've got a lot of bird life and just the landscape itself can

be enjoyed. So I think it's also

be enjoyed. So I think it's also thinking outside the box as a tourist.

you know there's a lot more to see and just listening to the guides talk about the history of the mara you know how and why the masai have been able to maintain that landscape for all these years

there's a lot of learning to be done but then it's also you know going back to what Jonathan Scott has been championing for a long time is that etiquette how do

you respect you know this place that has welcomed you how do you respect the animals that live there and the people that live there and you know the

ecosystem as as a whole. So being very cognizant of that I think something that tourists and tour operators need to you know really work on.

>> Yeah happy that you mentioned birds for anybody interested in birds it it is equally extraordinary isn't it? I was

surprised to see, don't know why I'm surprised, um, lapitaced vultures, which are the big pink-headed, the biggest of the vultures that you'll see around to kill in the mara. They are absolutely

endangered. The mara must have the the

endangered. The mara must have the the biggest remaining population, I should think.

>> And there is a, you know, a raptor program that's based out in the mara and, you know, they do amazing work and, you know, the mara is an important bird

area. So you can see hundreds of species

area. So you can see hundreds of species and migratory species as well. And as

you said, you know, you'll see birds that you won't see anywhere else. So you

know, I say sometimes instead of just looking on the ground, you know, we also need to look up and and see, you know, what's above us.

>> Absolutely. Well, Irene, thank you very much for your perspectives. I think one final question for you if I may. Will

the Mara still be here in 10 years time?

>> I think it will. Definitely it will be.

And it might not look the same because it's constantly changing. But I think with all the efforts being put in and the goodwill that's there from the communities and the county government

and you know the Kenya wildlife service and the research um wildlife research and training institute and all the researchers doing work I think the mara

will definitely be there and if we want it to you know look as good as it does now for future generations I think we

all need to roll our sleeves up and actually implement all these you know, beautiful plans that have been drawn and tap into the goodwill of all the people who live and work in the Mara.

>> Thank you very much, Irene. It is

absolutely worth protecting, isn't it?

It's a an absolute worldass spectacle um that we can't afford to lose. So, thank

you very much for your input today and um we'll keep in touch.

>> Thank you so much, Steve, and I look forward to seeing you in the Mara soon.