Make Your Indie Game Go Viral

I'm trying to design a game that's going to basically market and sell itself. It

converted into uh like a 100,000 wish lists. Can I format this in such a way

lists. Can I format this in such a way that it will go viral a lot?

This is a conversation with Gavin Eisenbists, also known as Two Star Games and the creator of incredible indie games such as Choo Choo Charles, My Beautiful Paper Smile, and now Cuffbust.

As soon as it's in newsletters, it doesn't work anymore. I don't really prototype at all. Yes, a YouTube channel with over 500,000 subscribers and some wild theories for how to make it big within indie game development.

Juju Charles videos, um, I did some calculations. I I want to say they get

calculations. I I want to say they get on average it's like 250% as many views as other videos posted to those channels within like the same time period.

What I want to learn from Gavin in this conversation is how he thinks about making wildly successful video games.

And we'll indulge in a little thought experiment. What would you have to do to

experiment. What would you have to do to make a viral video game today?

I'll look at, you know, what stuff is trending that's been doing like really really well off of like, you know, small budgets, small teams. Take a look at

that stuff and see like what kind of games are kind of popping up that seem like anomalies. So, you know, with Choo

like anomalies. So, you know, with Choo Choo Charles as an example, I was looking at games like Bendy, games like FNAF, and I was looking at what like

what the elements were in those games that was making them do really well.

Kind of saw that there was a lot of utility in like having these characters that work and having games that can kind of go viral on games that can kind of convert uh effectively on their own,

stuff like that. Kind of saw there was a bit of a opening there. So, I made Chu Charles to try and um help fill that.

Similar thing with Cuffbust. I'm looking

at the market. I was looking at, you know, this is two years ago. Now, we've

got more examples of games that have been doing this stuff really.

That's one of the the things that I think a lot of people are wondering about as well is um something you read in the comments a lot is that it's a really bad idea to sort of write these

trends because um by the time the game's done, everybody uh and their mom will have made a game like this. Do you do you sort of agree or do you think

I think that by the time that YouTubers and marketing newsletters are talking about it and have a a named genre, it's too late. I think if you're looking like

too late. I think if you're looking like the genres that I'm looking at that I think are going to exist 3 years from now and be really really big, nobody's talking about them. So if

you're if you're recognizing and you're trying to look for the stuff that isn't actually popular yet cuz it's like when you find these sort of saying you're trying to ride the wave very early almost before it's happening.

Yeah, you're kind of trying to help define the wave in a way, you know? So,

like with with Cuffbust, I was looking at like Among Us. I was looking at Fortnite. I was looking at Phasmophobia.

Fortnite. I was looking at Phasmophobia.

There weren't really many other examples, but basically just social games, games that aren't just multiplayer cuz you can have multiplayer where you've got multiple people in a game and it's like competitive and stuff. But I was kind of noticing that

stuff. But I was kind of noticing that there's a lot of games that are doing really, really, really well off of um more social dynamics. I was seeing a handful of games that were implementing

that stuff and blowing up, making hundreds of millions of dollars.

Do you think there is an information advantage to realizing sort of the trend early? Cuz that's kind of what I felt

early? Cuz that's kind of what I felt when you were like you're not sure you want to tell. Is that sort of you protecting your information advantage or is that something else? I think

definitely information advantage. Um I

mean I have Yeah, there's it's like while I personally don't really see myself staying in the games industry for very long,

um there are reasons to I think not talk about that too much. But yeah,

definitely I mean if if you're ahead of it or if other people are ahead of it, you know, cuz it's like again as soon as it's in

newsletters, it doesn't work anymore.

So, um, when it comes to like racing trends, how how exactly do we do that? We check

out what's doing well on Steam and then as soon as we see something, we're like, maybe we should try that or do we observe content creators or how exactly are we figuring out which direction to

take or which wave to write to them?

So, I almost feel like we should take an example of a a basic genre. Maybe even

maybe even social games because that is kind of the big thing that hasn't fully taken off yet. But I'm I'm okay talking about this one cuz

I'm close enough to releasing bust that nobody's going to make something similar in the next like 4 months. So we're

like, okay, let's make a hit social game. The main thing would be I think to

game. The main thing would be I think to find a concept a a highlevel concept that has a lot of it has to it has to hit a lot. It has to check a lot of

boxes.

There are a lot of boxes it has to check. You know like with Cuffbust it

check. You know like with Cuffbust it took me 6 months to come up with that and realize like oh wait okay this would actually work.

So we we'll see how far we can get in six minutes.

Yeah. But um we were talking about concepts that are like already proven and really popular and just have they they just they just work on some level

already and we can kind of see it.

Ideally, we could see that in other forms of media that haven't been exploited in games already cuz there are, you know, for example, schedule one recently. It's like it's basically

recently. It's like it's basically they're saying like, "Oh, hey, Breaking Bad is like the most popular TV show ever, but there's not really a video game that captures that same essence.

There, you know, there's like some drug dealing simulators and even those done well, but I don't think that um we'd had a game that implemented all of those systems as well as schedule."

Yeah. Now, now that you say it, it's kind of strange that nobody did it sooner.

Right. It's there's a lot of concepts like that where you you look at it and you're like, "This just made $100 million. Why didn't somebody think of

million. Why didn't somebody think of this already? Or like, you know,

this already? Or like, you know, Fasmophobia with like the ghost hunting.

Yeah.

You know, it's like we've had lots of horror games and spooky monster games, but like a game where you're actually hunting ghosts with like paranormal equipment. Like it's when these concepts

equipment. Like it's when these concepts come along, it's usually like, "Oh, duh.

Of course, that would do well." So, I'd be looking for something kind of like that. And that's what I think Cuffbust

that. And that's what I think Cuffbust um Yeah.

was. It was kind of like It's kind of like a Oh, duh. Yeah, I agree. It's It

really is. Prison Break is such a great fantasy.

So, you're what you're saying is you're kind of looking for an idea where you're not almost not secondg guessing if it's going to do well. You're like, "Duh, this is going to do well." Like,

spider spider train. Duh. Like, this is going to do it.

Well, spider train is is a little bit of a different one. That's Yeah, different different reasoning there. But um with Cuffbust, yeah, definitely, you know, cuz you've got lots of proven media

around that concept. You've got TV shows, movies, even like a lot of like Roblox games, tons of Prison Break Roblox games, um or like Minecraft maps.

That stuff was so popular. I mean, it's popular now even. It just hasn't really been interpreted into like a really solid standalone video game. So if once

I get to the point where I have a an overall overarching concept that is proven in other media and hasn't been

exploited in the form of a game, then I'm looking to see how much additional strategy I can implement into it and what breaking points it might have because again my goal now is to figure

out how I can make this get as much attention as possible and as high of conversion rates as possible. This comes

down to a million different smaller strategies. It comes down to virality.

strategies. It comes down to virality.

It comes down to retention, color scheme, characters, lighting. You know,

in the case of Cuffbust, multiplayer is a really big one. It comes down to trying to increase play time and longevity. You know, for Cuffbust, I'm

longevity. You know, for Cuffbust, I'm working with Well, actually, you've worked with Warp Digital. I think you mentioned you've worked with them.

Yeah.

Yeah. So they're they're doing a a level editor for cuff bust so that people can make their own prisons and you know increase longevity and stuff like that.

What I would do is I would look at the concept and I would see I think that the main thing that I would be looking at is can I format this in such a way that it will go viral a lot as you have kind of a checklist that you

go through with Yeah. How how do you do that without

Yeah. How how do you do that without feature creep or is that something you don't even worry too much about? I'm not

too worried about feature creep because if you just focus on the things that are actually going to have a significant impact on the attention and the conversion rates, there's not really

that much bloat. There really isn't that much bloat. And also, I think I've just

much bloat. And also, I think I've just gotten to a point where I've been making games long enough that I know how to I kind of know what's in and outside of my scope. Um, and so yeah, it's not

scope. Um, and so yeah, it's not something I'm too worried about. So when

you say retention, you mean retention for content creators or do you mean Yes.

Cuz that's something you seem to think about a lot is how is this going to do with content creators, right?

Yeah. Absolutely. Yeah. That's that's

the the easiest way to get mass attention is to go viral basically because it's it's not it doesn't take I don't want to say it doesn't take too much effort. It takes a lot of, you

much effort. It takes a lot of, you know, pre-planning, but it's it's exponential returns for the effort that are being that's being put in. You know,

if if you have a game that's holding people's attention, just 10 or 20% better than the average game, that's that could result in 5 10 100 times more

visibility. So it's the the small

visibility. So it's the the small optimizations and retention are like the biggest thing for increasing visibility and the overall coverage that a game

will get. So it's it's that's one of the

will get. So it's it's that's one of the most important things for me when I'm looking at a concept. And because also when you're formatting for retention in a with content creators in mind, it's

like the exact same stuff carries over for players as well. Like retention is the same basically the same whether you're watching or playing.

So, looking at it from the lens of content creators, I think you get the best of both both worlds. It's not like I'm just making games that only appeal to content creators. It's still fun to

play because retention and the way that people perceive progress, the way that people, you know, the way that you trigger these these different instincts and gratification and oh, destroying

stuff and earning points and winning and defeating enemies. It's the same in just

defeating enemies. It's the same in just linear media as in interactive. So it

works in both scenario.

I see. I see. So what would you say are the biggest drivers for optimizing for content creator retention? What are the main things you should optimize about your game?

The biggest thing is having a game that tells an actual story from the first second to the last second. So first like immediately upon starting the video, the

content creator can say this is the conflict. This is also why like linear

conflict. This is also why like linear games tend to do a little bit better on YouTube. They're not as good for sales

YouTube. They're not as good for sales conversions. They're really really

conversions. They're really really really bad for sales conversions. So, I

don't think it's great to make games like that if if you know money is a big goal.

Um, you can basically if you introduce conflict at the very very beginning of gameplay and you conclude it at the very very end,

then that's going to be the that's like the biggest overall thing is just having that overall structure. Essentially the

same thing you're doing when trying to optimize the retention for a YouTube video where sort of you're trying to have an arc where at the beginning you maybe present a problem or an obstacle

that needs to be overcome or you create some sort of knowledge gap and you you're saying you can do the same thing in a game in a way.

Yes. Yes. Exactly. Retention is the same. Like the the way that people

same. Like the the way that people engage with anything is basically the same. Whether it's movies, YouTube

same. Whether it's movies, YouTube videos, Tik Tok videos, live streams, there are very slight differences depending on the the type of content and the type of person watching. But games

and linear media, it follows very very very similar.

I see. So what what else can you do besides or how how do you do that in games? Like what exactly we're talking

games? Like what exactly we're talking about?

Sure. So in Cuffbust as an example um you know like for example if I was to tell somebody hey design a prison break game intuitively first thought might be

to have like you know a week's worth of time in game where it's like oh you you go around and you slowly stealth around collecting different items so that you can craft new stuff so that you could

slowly start digging through the walls and mapping out a different you know different escape routes and stuff. it

would intuitively it feels like a more of a slow burn concept. What I did for cuff bust though to optimize it for retention is as soon as the round starts, it's round based, right? Each

round is maybe anywhere between like five and 20 minutes depending on a player's skill level. But it starts out with all the cell doors opening up,

guards rushing in, and a mad dash to go and like pick up items and weapons and and beat up the guards. M. So then you can

this is your one chance go.

Yes. Yeah. So instead of a slow burn, it's just immediately, oh, here's the conflict. You're escaping from prison.

conflict. You're escaping from prison.

There's guards. You need to fight the guards. So there's immediate conflict

guards. So there's immediate conflict and Okay. So I I see how how that is useful

Okay. So I I see how how that is useful for for retention. So basically every YouTube video that will ever exist about this game will will have this exact same attention arc, and they they'll all have

a much easier time because of that.

Yeah definitely.

I see. I see. And you think it's more interesting for the player as well this way or Yeah. Well, I think I definitely don't

Yeah. Well, I think I definitely don't think it's a detriment. Like obviously I think that a slow burn could be interesting as well, but I think a lot

of people also just like hopping in and it's, you know, immediate action and it's immediately interesting. I think

that that works really well, too. So, it

might not be for everybody. There might

be some people who'd prefer slowburn, but overall I think this is the the best of both worlds because if I did slowburn, then nobody would see the game

and nobody would buy it and nobody would experience the slowburn in the first place. So

place. So Mhm. So it's not like nobody has ever

Mhm. So it's not like nobody has ever done a prison game before. Do you think it's essentially a lot about just framing it more intelligently than than

other developers maybe have done before?

I think definitely. Yeah, cuz I mean there are there's a handful of like prison themed games, you know, you got like Prison Architect. Um I've seen other games where it is like

multiplayer, Prison Escape, but in those examples, it's like the the games just aren't that good. They're not polished.

They're not very fun. So yeah, I think optimizing it more, polishing it more, and just having the best execution of the concept, even if it has been done a

couple times, having the best execution, I think is a a huge leg up.

Okay, got it. So you pick a game concept where where you're like, duh, obviously that's going to do well, and then you try to do it better than it has been done before.

Yeah. And like that doesn't really work unless it's a concept that just hasn't really been done well, you know. Well, I

I guess with Prison, it has it's I guess you know, kind of like we mentioned like, you know, there's uh Prison Architect, which was a really good, you know, architectural simulation, you

know, building game, but it's it's it's satisfying a different set of instincts to something like Cuffbust. So it's it's almost in like a completely different market of its own.

What if people still using that same highle concept?

What if somebody says but everything has been done before like there there's I can't find anything that hasn't been done before like everything has been done before. Is that how you feel as

done before. Is that how you feel as well or are you like there are like are you like there you you see opportunities left and right or do you think they're relatively rare?

So I think that the idea that everything's been done before isn't really true. Um, I think it the the

really true. Um, I think it the the level of success that you're trying to hit, the the concepts become more rare the higher you're aiming. So, like when

I was first concepting for Cuffbust and trying to design my current strategy, I was like, "Okay, I want to try and figure out how I could make like a $100 million game. I have no idea. I I don't

million game. I have no idea. I I don't think Cuffbust is probably going to make $100 million. That seems like a pretty

$100 million. That seems like a pretty high target." But the goal was like,

high target." But the goal was like, "Okay, I want to hit it like as high a level as as an indie game possibly could." So to find a concept like that

could." So to find a concept like that that I think could have a ceiling that high, that's pretty rare. And I think that we, you know, we only really have a handful of games like that per year.

There's definitely more concepts like that out there, but they are a little bit more difficult to find. If you're

trying to find a game that has a ceiling of like a million dollars, there's a ton of concepts like that. There's tons.

That's I think that's pretty accessible.

If you're trying to find a concept that could be worth $100,000, that's super super super accessible. You almost don't even need a good concept to make $100,000.

Like you like, okay, that's a hot take right there.

Okay. Like like you can get by on execution. like a really good execution

execution. like a really good execution of a just a really mediocre concept can still make you 100 grand. Like that's

that's the example with like My Beautiful Paper Smile. It's not a particularly good concept, but the execution was decent and it's made about that much. So,

that much. So, okay.

Yeah. So, do you think if you have like a $100 million idea, it is actually warranted to be very protective of your game idea and be like, "Yeah, maybe I

shouldn't share this online yet." or how do you kind of look at that? Because I I I myself and I also know a lot of other developers, we we kind of often giggle

and make fun of people who protect their game ideas so strongly. I think that it generally I don't think it makes a ton of sense to protect

your game ideas because it's like for the most part people aren't going to rip you off unless there's evidence that your game concept is really really great. And that usually doesn't happen

great. And that usually doesn't happen until after launch, right? Most people

aren't going to rip off something that hasn't released yet. Like I don't think I've I've seen very very very like I can't think of any examples of that. I

could think of a million examples of a game that comes out, makes a ton of money, and then a bunch of copycats come along.

That's really common. But but it's Yeah, it's it's always post launch when stuff starts getting ripped off. And at that point, it doesn't really matter cuz you already made your money. I guess maybe it's a little bit different if you if you have a good track record of coming

up with banger game ideas. Maybe

true.

Maybe then people would start copying it before it's out. But yeah, I honestly haven't really seen that either.

Yeah. Yeah, it's I wouldn't be too worried about it until like actually saw it happening.

So, are we are we done with our game idea now? Like we we came up with a with

idea now? Like we we came up with a with a cool concept. We are like we optimizing it for retention. We're not

worrying about feature creep so much.

We're just basically adding what makes sense. Are we just going into production

sense. Are we just going into production now? What's the game plan from here?

now? What's the game plan from here?

Definitely not. Okay. So, um I think at this point, so retention, you know, we'd want to make sure that the concept has the general needs of, you know, that

story structure. We'd want to go through

story structure. We'd want to go through and make sure that the design also doesn't implement other stuff that's like going to harm retention because there's a lot of stuff. I've got a video about this on on my second channel that goes into all the different things that

affect the retention of a video game or at least the key ones that I've found.

So, making sure that there aren't like long death screens or long loading screens or making sure that you don't have like a bunch of like 10 paragraph notes scattered around or expo

dumps or things that break the flow of progress. Um, not too many like high

progress. Um, not too many like high action scenes. High action games are

action scenes. High action games are really bad for retention. So, there's a lot of different things that are bad for retention that you'd want to make sure your game is um abiding by.

Okay. Okay. Okay. Not so fast. I was

kind of two two very interesting things there.

One is that um of course um you're right. All of these annoying things that hurt retention in YouTube videos are typically also the things that uh annoy players when

playing as well, right? These

long death screens, long notes, that's all stuff that players find annoying as well. So I interesting interesting

well. So I interesting interesting um one thing that um I stumbled across a bit here is you say high high action games are actually not that good for

retention.

Um that's interesting. Can you elaborate that a bit further?

Sure. Yeah. So there is you know intuitively and this is something that I expected as well. I thought that action is engaging but it's actually not. So

there's because like chase scenes, chase scenes in games or boss fights are really good for retention, but mowing down a bunch of enemies is not. And so

the the big key distinction between like a chase scene or a boss fight and an action scene is that an action scene is

where the player is in control and everybody kind of watching knows like, okay, the player is going to win this fight. And so there's no tension.

fight. And so there's no tension.

There's no question.

There's no there's not really an actual conflict. You're just mowing down a

conflict. You're just mowing down a bunch of enemies. You know that that's what's going to happen. You know that the player is going to survive. You know

that these enemies aren't actually a threat. They might as well not even be

threat. They might as well not even be there. You might as well just be staring

there. You might as well just be staring at a blank screen. It doesn't do anything. Doesn't do that much

anything. Doesn't do that much psychologically. can increase retention

psychologically. can increase retention very very briefly but only for maybe like 20 or 30 seconds and then you see a steep steep steep drop off and it'll just continue dropping in like these like arena shooters and things like

that. So arena shooters are really

that. So arena shooters are really really bad for retention. Very difficult

to make those go viral. But if you've got something so this is so this is one of the cases where you would say what the player feels and what the viewer feels does disconnect.

Yes. Yeah, definitely. Yeah. Because

action games are really fun to play, but they're not fun to watch for majority of people. Again, we're talking about

people. Again, we're talking about majorities. There's going to be some

majorities. There's going to be some people in the comments like, "But I like watching." It's like, "All right, you're

watching." It's like, "All right, you're the exception. Good for you." But

the exception. Good for you." But

but but I see the point also the stakes like even if that if if you die, you respawn like at the checkpoint that was like 30 seconds ago. So, it's like Yeah.

Not not very flow. Yeah. And then like on the the other side of it, like when it comes to like chase scenes, chase scenes and boss fights are good because it's putting the player in a position where it doesn't feel like they're in

control of the situation, right? You've

got a boss fight, the boss is really big, they're really threatening. That's

the one singular focus. You're not

mowing them down. It takes a lot of, you know, there's an unanswered question.

Okay, is the player going to defeat this this enemy? And so that's really good

this enemy? And so that's really good for retention. That can hold retention

for retention. That can hold retention for many, many minutes. Same thing with chase scenes. if the the enemy character

chase scenes. if the the enemy character is threatening enough. And that's why Chu Charles works is because yes, you're shooting a gun, but it falls more into that boss fight and chase scene area where it's really good for retention.

So, and you have a obviously in tr you have a very carefully balanced tension curve as well where you know the the monster keeps coming closer than it's further away. It's like constant

away. It's like constant tension and relief. It's not like tension all of the time. I think maybe that's also the problem with action games is that's like almost over stimulation with with the amount of

tension they try to give.

Yeah. Yeah, definitely. It becomes like numbing just very quickly. Can I ask you about a a game idea? Cuz Paul and I, we were kind of thinking about um maybe

making a a co-op gladiator game where where you sort of team up and just fight waves of enemies in in an arena or something cuz we were like, "Okay, this is something that communicates itself

really well. If somebody tunes into a

really well. If somebody tunes into a random stream and they see this, they immediately know what's going on. It's

very easy to understand and you sort of have a immediate tension." So, what what do you think? Under which circumstances can action games like this do well, or

is there just not no way to do it at all?

It's not to say that a concept like that wouldn't make money because again, you can make money off of a game that doesn't go viral if you're relying more on word of mouth and, you know, Steam algorithm, stuff like that, or just

really, really, really high conversion rates. But if you do want virality, I

rates. But if you do want virality, I think you would you would want to be it would almost it would need to be like a boss rush kind of thing rather than waves. You'd have to be fighting larger

waves. You'd have to be fighting larger enemies that take longer to kill rather than more enemies that take less time to kill. So, you'd probably want to do

kill. So, you'd probably want to do multiple bosses or like you do a boss and then you get a bunch of items and then you make some upgrades or you change your character or then you like

travel a little bit for a couple minutes to a new arena or you get chased to a new arena and then you fight another larger, spookier, scarier or more

intense boss that has some new abilities. you get some additional stuff

abilities. you get some additional stuff that you can use to upgrade or whatever and then you get chased to the next arena. Something like that would work

arena. Something like that would work much much much better if you wanted um virality out of the content.

So specifically the bigger enemy so that every enemy that is sort of slain is not like just doesn't feel like it's the same thing on on on repeat. Yeah. Yeah,

I see.

Yeah, definitely.

Okay.

Yeah, fair point. So um we have our game idea and you said we're not starting into production right away. what what do we do now?

The main stuff that I am worried about are how the game implements like uh human instinct. So game mechanics that

human instinct. So game mechanics that are just intrinsically appealing. So

things like upgrade systems, um character buffs, destruction, social interaction, you know, progress, solving puzzles, things like that that are just instinctually appealing. I like to

instinctually appealing. I like to implement nostalgia. And this is pretty

implement nostalgia. And this is pretty similar to just like the the popular base concept. So like it's really more

base concept. So like it's really more about kind of getting into that that other point there of like familiarity and readability. So those points we've

and readability. So those points we've kind of covered, you know, is the concept something that's popular, well-known, understandable, and has a lot of tropes that you can tap into so

that cuz really the when it's like when it comes to marketing, the goal is that upon seeing 3 seconds of gameplay, people understand the entire game. like

you're trying to communicate as much about the game as possible in as short a time as possible because people are constantly browsing through a million

different things in any given day. So

being able to just communicate as effectively as possible is really really really important. So implementing things

really important. So implementing things that people are already familiar with like you know prison break cooking meth but hopefully people aren't too familiar with that but you get the point. that

stuff that we've already kind of talked about. The next thing,

about. The next thing, is there any nostalgia in Cuffbust?

In Cuffbust, not as much. Um, in

Cuffbust, it would be more so if there is nostalgia, it would be for like the Roblox games or for the Minecraft games that are similar um that people will have grown up playing. You know, there

will be a lot of people and I've I've seen tons and tons of comments like this like, "Oh my gosh, when I was 10, I used to play Minecraft Prison Break and this looks like a a cooler, better version of that. I can't wait to play

this." Stuff like that. So,

this." Stuff like that. So,

there's there's, you know, just that familiarity. And so then

familiarity. And so then brand and game recognition. So, this is kind of the next I'd say big topic that we haven't touched on much. So, repeat

exposure is one of the best things for increasing your sales. You know, rather than the goal being for, you know, a million people to see your game one time, it would probably be better if,

you know, a half a million people saw it 10 times. like it's you want to have

10 times. like it's you want to have repeat exposure and you want people to be aware that they're seeing the same thing because the more popular they think it is, the more likely they are to

give it serious consideration as to whether or not they would be willing to purchase it. So, a lot of games look

purchase it. So, a lot of games look really generic and if you have a game that looks like every other game, a person might see it five times but not even realize that they're looking at the

same game. So having a distinct visual

same game. So having a distinct visual style, that's like the main thing in my perspective that's going to uh help with branding. That along with distinct

branding. That along with distinct characters, those those are really the the that's like the the the one two double punch wombo combo that I think works best. So distinct colors, faces,

works best. So distinct colors, faces, face, humans are hardwired to recognize faces more than like any other pattern.

And so having characters that implement either animalistic or humanoid features is like crucial. It just makes it 10 times more memorable.

So it's also way better for YouTube thumbnails and marketing because again, similar thing, YouTube likes not only retention, but also click-through rates.

So if you've got faces in your game that YouTubers can use in thumbnails, that's going to increase their clickthrough rates and increase uh virality like that as well. as well as the the colors, you know, good

characters or sorry, good colors also make things more clickable. So, you

know, stuff like that, the name of your game, you know, having a name that's easy to remember, that's an important one. Those are kind of the main things.

one. Those are kind of the main things.

Yeah. So, just like making sure that a game really is recognizable and has a really unique brand is really, really important. So, that would be the next

important. So, that would be the next thing that I would implement as like the next layer of the cake. So characters in particular, I feel like is something a

lot of developers miss out on a little bit. Probably myself included. I would I

bit. Probably myself included. I would I would definitely say this is something we're guilty of cuz I don't know in Thron you have this

little tiny king character that is know it's kind of recognizable but it's so tiny on the screen that it's doesn't really do well on thumbnails at all. And

pretty much none of my games have any super recognizable characters. Will you

snail a little bit, but it's like 2D sidecroller also very small characters.

What do you think? Are there certain games where making characters is just generally easier? Like is it easier to

generally easier? Like is it easier to make characters for 3D games or or do you say it's like a fairly even playing field for 2D, 3D, whatever you want to make, you can always add cool

characters.

I feel like characters are something that you could pretty much always implement. A lot of like the when it

implement. A lot of like the when it comes to like branding stuff that can be applied to just about any game. Like

you'd have to like I don't know how you wouldn't be able to like have a good color palette, you know, things like that or implement characters in some way. Um and if you had a game concept

way. Um and if you had a game concept where you couldn't do that, I think you should just scrap the concept because I think it, you know, having good characters is just too important. I

think 3D is just generally better. I

think I my suspicion I don't really have data on this but my suspicion is that 3D games convert better than 2D but I don't know that that might just be suspicion I I would plus one that suspicion but I

don't have any data on that either. What

what is um the top of the cake here mass content ability is that just that basically very replayable.

Yes. Yeah. So, it's kind of it's both virality kind of like we've talked about as well as the not just about getting like one viral video out of every YouTuber, but getting like a hundred

viral videos out of them. Like the more content that you can create off of a game, the better longevity it's going to have and the more people are going to end up trying it out. Um, it's also good

because, you know, more gameplay means more people are going to, you know, want to play it. People will play it longer.

Um, especially if you've got alternative monetization stuff, if you've got like in-game purchases or cosmetics or anything like that, then play time is going to help increase revenue from

those sources. But yeah, so making sure

those sources. But yeah, so making sure that the game is just optim as optimized as it can be for content and the amount of content. You know, something like

of content. You know, something like Choo Choo Charles, you could play through it. Maybe you could upload it in

through it. Maybe you could upload it in like one, two, three parts. You could

you could maybe if you're being like real real greedy, you could split into like a three-part series, maybe you throw in like a mod review video and like a a lore story explained video, but like that's about all the content that

you can get out of it. So, it's very limited. It's like a Chu Charles videos.

limited. It's like a Chu Charles videos.

Um, I did some calculations. I I want to say they get on average it's like 250% as many views as other videos posted to those channels

within like the same time period. So the

content was performing really well, but as soon as like you can't make any more content, people just aren't going to make any more content. So with Cuffbust, you know, having the level editor in

there, having more escape routes, more social features, more not quite almost like a sandbox type type gameplay style.

you know, it just allows for more unique conflicts and more variability in content and it allows for more just more attention to be put on the game over

time as well as more play time and more value for players. So,

yeah. So, the more content creators can milk it for views, the more free marketing you get. So for for something like um True to Child's maybe you watch

two or three people play it, but you it's not like you can watch the same play through over and over again, right?

You're going to get bored pretty quick.

Yeah. Yeah. And I feel like that's even with Cuffbust that's probably kind of the main constraint that it has is because it's like you still can't make that much content out of it. more than

Choo Choo Charles, but it's still like kind of limited. There's only so many escape routes that you could do. There's

only so many different items and tools, and that's stuff that I can expand on.

But yeah, that's that is a difficult one to optimize for. Is that something you're still working on or struggling with or what state is cuff bust in in

this regard at the moment in in the mass contentability area?

Yeah, I mean, in that regard, it's not really anything. Basically, the only way

really anything. Basically, the only way for me to increase the content ability of Cuffbust would be to add more maps, more maps, larger maps, more escape

routes, more items, things like that.

It's an issue that I kind of saw going into development, but I was like, eh, it's fine, whatever. I think it's still good enough in every other regard that it'll work. And I had another, you know,

it'll work. And I had another, you know, period like a couple months back where I was really trying to figure out, I was like, is there any way that I can increase this? is there any way that I

increase this? is there any way that I can make this more replayable? And it

kind of ju just came to the conclusion that like other than the level editor and you know people being able to make custom maps for each other and you know different like sort of game modes and stuff like that, it's just a matter of

making content updates. That's really

the only option.

Level editor sounds really good to be honest.

Yeah, I'm I'm hoping that that'll carry a lot of weight, right? So either we figure all of these

right? So either we figure all of these layers of cake out or we're like if we can't figure this out then this is not the right idea. Yep, pretty much. If

it's not working on one of these levels, then I would scrap it and I'd go back to the drawing board.

And that's why it took you six months to come up with cuff bus because you first of all, you had to find an idea that you were like that's obviously going to work and then you were checking for all of

these other requirements that you had and then a lot of other ideas you had fell through that test.

Yeah, definitely. Yeah, most of them.

There were there were plenty that came and went.

Now, what's the next thing you do? Cuz I

have a suspicion that probably the next thing you would work towards would be the trailer. Or is there anything you do

the trailer. Or is there anything you do before that?

I think the main thing that I would try to make sure is just that I have the design of the game like really well locked in. um not necessarily like from

locked in. um not necessarily like from a development perspective, but I just need to have a really clear picture in my mind of like what I'm going to be able to successfully execute on and what the game is going to look like when it releases. And then I think once I have

releases. And then I think once I have that, that's when I would start working towards a trailer. So for Cuff Bus, it was in development for about a year before I announced it because I I was still like there were certain different mechanics like where I was like, "Oh,

crafting. I don't know if I'm going to

crafting. I don't know if I'm going to have crafting or not or I don't know exactly what the art style is going to look like." And you know there were some

look like." And you know there were some little things that I was kind of tuning in over that time period. But yeah, it's kind of a goal of working towards announcement ideally as soon as possible

so that I can actually like test the concept in a like a real world scenario and see if people are actually genuinely interested in it.

Mhm.

Because if I was to release a trailer and it turns out people aren't that interested in it, then that's going to inform the rest of development and it's like, okay, I shouldn't put too much money into this. I should scope down. I

should try and get it out as quick as possible. or if it's very wellreceived

possible. or if it's very wellreceived then it's like okay I can afford to put more money into this I can afford to put a little more time into this because I know I'll recoup everything that I'm you know putting it

where in your workflow is a prototyping coming in is it coming in so is the idea first so you first you come up with the idea and the concept and then you start prototyping to sort of figure out the

game play or do you do it simultaneously or is the prototyping first at all I don't really prototype at all I kind of just I come up with the concept, I come up with the gameplay loop, and if

it makes sense that the gameplay loop would work, then I go along with it. And

this is something that it I I don't necessarily know that it's a great strategy for me. It's the quickest thing, and it has worked out pretty fine for me so far. I know that prototyping is definitely something that you do a

lot of, and I think it works really well in in the way that uh that you guys do it, but it's not something that I've taken super seriously. Not sure I would recommend that. But it's it's also just

recommend that. But it's it's also just with certain concepts, I think it's really really difficult to do prototyping. Like with Choo Choo

prototyping. Like with Choo Choo Charles, I don't know how on earth you would do like a really good prototype of that as like an entire game cuz it's like it relies heavily on the open world

and on, you know, long play time in order to like build tension and things like that. And kind of similar with cuff

like that. And kind of similar with cuff bus where it's like it relies a lot on like the exploration of an environment and like finding different tools and figuring out how to use them in different ways. So it's like you need a

different ways. So it's like you need a lot of stuff there before you'd have an effective prototype. And so for me I'm

effective prototype. And so for me I'm just like I might as well just make the actual game.

I think the reason why your approach works is because you're not over complicating gameplay and you're not doing something that hasn't been done before, right? Yeah,

before, right? Yeah, for example, in Choo Choo Childs, like the the core game loop is essentially collecting scrap and uh couple of fetch quests and you're being chased by a

monster and all of these are concepts that have been battle tested in many other games before. So, it's not like you're reinventing reinventing the wheel from a gameplay perspective. I think

that's a super important lesson to take from this actually that you don't have to do that. like it's clearly games can work without uh having to reinvent uh the wheel in terms of game in terms of game mechanics.

Yeah, definitely. I think a lot of mechanics are pretty much just fine as they are and trying to complicate them just makes a game less readable and it makes it less familiar and it makes the

onboarding process more difficult. And I

think just like reskinning and giving it a different concept, a different theme, I think that makes a lot of sense in a lot of cases. At least for me, that's the way that I like to do things. So I

guess you have have sort of a different approach to prototyping. You do idea prototyping where you have a maybe come up with a lot of competing ideas and

test them for various criteria and then you just don't over complicate the gameplay and and cross the fingers that you're going to figure it out during development.

So sort of a good description of how you approach it or more or less. Yeah. Yeah. I I feel like in most cases you can I feel like you can make most games fun. I feel like it it's not too complicated to like, you

know, if it's simple enough, put it that way. If it's a simple enough game,

way. If it's a simple enough game, there's usually some tweaks that you can make if something isn't quite working.

It's interesting. I think actually this approach requires a lot of bravery. I

think a lot of developers, I don't know, there's there's something inside game developers is like just like, "Oh, wait.

I'm just going to make a game about going around an island collecting scrap.

Wait, that can't be right." So I I find it a very fascinating approach. All

right, but if there's nothing more to say on that, then let's perhaps move on to the next step. What's next?

All right, so next if if I've got a concept and it fits all of these things and I'm like, okay, it uses human instinct really, really well at a fundamental level, it should be

appealing. There's a lot of familiarity.

appealing. There's a lot of familiarity.

There's good colors. There's good

characters. The whole thing as a package makes sense. It's readable. It's easy to

makes sense. It's readable. It's easy to explain. and people are interested by

explain. and people are interested by the concept. It has a lot of ability for

the concept. It has a lot of ability for content and virality and just to be able to get mass attention. If it meets all of those criteria, then I would say, "Okay, cool. Now, it's time to make the

"Okay, cool. Now, it's time to make the game." So, I'd make the game, work

game." So, I'd make the game, work towards getting a trailer out, release the trailer. I mean, this pretty much

the trailer. I mean, this pretty much like we mentioned, all the all the stuff, you know, once the trailer's out, use that to kind of solidify the the development plan. um and see like okay

development plan. um and see like okay is there enough interest to warrant additional budget additional time things like that or is this concept not really going to work and I need to scope down decrease budget all those things because

it's probably just going to be a loss and on the trailer you is it that you always try to do the trailer relatively early in development or where in your development cycle does

your trailer come in cuz I know for us it's something like maybe when the game's 70% done we we start thinking about the Is this different for you?

Yeah, I I think I'm definitely trying to do it much earlier in development because it it informs the rest of development for me. Um to see if if I do

need to simplify things more. So yeah, I mean for Cuffbust I mean I guess for Cuffbust it was like maybe like 30 or 40% of the way through development that

I made that for Choo Charles it was like in the first month out of like a 14 month development cycle. So, it it kind of just depends on like at what point do

I have enough that I can accurately depict what I think the game is going to look like on launch. As soon as I feel like like, okay, yeah, this is what it's going to look like. This is highly representative of the final product in

like, you know, like a sort of a bite-sized format. Once I can show that,

bite-sized format. Once I can show that, that's when I put out the trailer.

So, as soon as possible, but only once it looks about how the finished game's going to look like.

Yeah. And is your is the purpose of the trailer for you to test the idea or is it to start marketing early?

It's both, you know, ultimately I mean it it is marketing and if the marketing is going well, then that probably means that the game is going to do well. It's

Yeah, it's kind of just to to gauge the concept as well as, you know, gain wish lists, things like that.

Do you think it's um a problem that the hype wave sort of dies down after the initial announcement trailer? cuz

typically you get a a peak of interest and then sort of the interest decays over time. Do you think it would maybe

over time. Do you think it would maybe be better to leverage that um momentum or do you think it's more worth it to get the wish lists early?

I think it makes more sense to get the the wish lists early because it again I think it's really really important for me to like have the the assurance of like testing the concept and knowing that I'm not going to like spend

hundreds of thousands of dollars on a project that's like not going to make that back. Like if Cuff Yeah. kind of

that back. Like if Cuff Yeah. kind of

like I said, if Cuffbust got announced and it got like 5,000 wish lists and I had already spent hundreds of thousands of dollars on it, I would be crying. So

like um I wouldn't be having a good time.

You see it as an you see it as an insurance policy in a way kind of. Yeah. Yeah. And it's, you know,

kind of. Yeah. Yeah. And it's, you know, I feel like it's it's easy enough to like once it comes time to release the game, it has enough like for Cuffbust

since it's designed with virality and and streaming um and content in mind.

I've got, you know, tons and tons and tons of YouTubers that I know are going to cover it on launch. A bunch of people who have, you know, requested keys and things like that. And so I know that on launch it's going to get a lot of

coverage. And so it's like pretty much

coverage. And so it's like pretty much as soon as it comes out, I get another marketing push. And so I don't feel it's

marketing push. And so I don't feel it's like until like probably like a month before launch, like a month before launch, I'll put together another trailer. I'll do another marketing push.

trailer. I'll do another marketing push.

I'll do some devlogs. And I'll try and like reinvigorate the the fan base a bit. And I feel like it you really only

bit. And I feel like it you really only need like that announcement period to gauge the interest, the period of time right beforehand to drum up interest and

then release where everything actually can blow up and go off on its own and just start marketing itself. Um I don't necessarily recommend that for everybody. In my case, it works because

everybody. In my case, it works because um you know, Cuffbusters got enough attention on it um when it was announced and stuff that like I don't necessarily need to continue doing marketing throughout development. Yeah, I guess

throughout development. Yeah, I guess yeah, of course, obviously different things work for different people. It's

not like everybody should make games how I make games either. It's like sure work see what works for you. But I still find it interesting uh to figure out how you

make games cuz I think there is a lot of very very valuable stuff to learn from it. And also I I think sentences like um

it. And also I I think sentences like um I know this is going to do well when when I release it or I know it's going to get a lot of coverage. That's

something you hear so rarely from other developers. Is is that something you hear from other developers a lot or is it just No, not not really. No.

Why? Why is that? I mean, most people Yeah. I I because a lot of developers

Yeah. I I because a lot of developers probably don't know that.

So, you have I guess you have you have a bunch of people lined up who want to play the game. So, it's like fairly obvious that um definitely they're going to play. That's that's a dream scenario. The question, how do you

dream scenario. The question, how do you how do you get there? But I guess we just talked about how to get there.

Yeah. Yeah. I mean, if if you announce a game and it looks like it would be good content, then content creators will line up and say, "Hey, I want to make content out of this because I I can tell looking at it like this is going to do well on

my channel. I will be able to make a lot

my channel. I will be able to make a lot of money off of this. I want in on it."

So, damn it. It's so It's so funny when you

damn it. It's so It's so funny when you say it. It sounds so obvious.

say it. It sounds so obvious.

I think it's kind of hard to believe to believe that that's really how it works that if if you make a game that Okay, so we have a have a game um

trailer and we got very lucky. Content

creators are starting to line up for our game or maybe we have a a different strategy, whatever. What What do we do

strategy, whatever. What What do we do next?

Finish the game. That's that's basically it. Now, we finish the game, we develop

it. Now, we finish the game, we develop it, we spend a bunch of time building it, we test frequently, we have people test every single every time there's a new feature, have somebody try it out and see if it's intuitive. You know,

you're doing bug testing throughout launch or throughout uh development, making sure that everything is on track, trying to make sure that you're sticking to the original plan, making sure that

things are still optimized well, you know, for like all the the different things that we've talked about throughout the the concepting phase. you

get into beta, make sure the game is actually fun. You know, it might be

actually fun. You know, it might be interesting, but is it actually genuinely executed well to where there's no bugs, good performance, people are actually having fun with it. If they're

not, back to the drawing board. Got to

fix that, make it good, and once it's done, you release it.

So, that almost sounds like the production, even though the production is probably 80 to 70% of the process, there was like we went over that very

quickly. You you said that you can get

quickly. You you said that you can get to around 100k in revenue just with good execution. How much weight do you give

execution. How much weight do you give the game idea versus the execution? Is

it 50/50? Is it you need both or how do you think about 50/50? I definitely think it's

about 50/50? I definitely think it's 50/50. There are a lot of, you know,

50/50. There are a lot of, you know, like there are prison escape game or I shouldn't use that one because cuff bus hasn't come out yet, so I can't actually say like, oh, look, it's obviously a great Well, I mean, I think it is, but

there are a lot of games that had good concepts and bad executions that didn't do well. And then you see like a game a

do well. And then you see like a game a couple years later or a year later, 6 months later that comes out that's working off the same base concept, the same elevator pitch, you know, the same

familiar like nostalgic sort of ideas, but it's executed really well. and then

that goes and makes millions of dollars.

I think that both are are equally important. You know, a really good

important. You know, a really good concept with a trash execution obviously isn't going to do very well. People are

going to hate it. But a really boring concept with a great execution probably just isn't going to get any attention.

It's not going to be interesting enough that people would actually want to put money down to to purchase it. There's a

lot of people who are good at executing on on concepts. I think it is less common that

concepts. I think it is less common that people take concept as seriously as they should. Uh because there's a lot of

should. Uh because there's a lot of developers like you you'll see it a lot when people take their games to like gaming conventions and they'll have a booth set up and people will sit down and play their game or their demo. Yeah,

happens with demos a lot as well and people will be like, "So, what did you think? You just played my game for free

think? You just played my game for free and uh was it enjoyable?" And people will always be like, "Oh yeah, that was good. That was fun. I really enjoyed

good. That was fun. I really enjoyed it." and then they get to launch and

it." and then they get to launch and once there's a price tag on it, nobody wants to buy it and they're confused. Or

or you'll have a lot of games that have like, you know, 50 very positive reviews and people are like really confused cuz it's like, oh well, I've got good reviews. People are enjoying the game.

reviews. People are enjoying the game.

It's fun, but it just doesn't have a wide enough appeal because the concept isn't there. So, yeah, they're both

isn't there. So, yeah, they're both very, very, very important. And I think developers need to take concept way more seriously than they do.

I'll give you my theory for for why that is happening. I think most developers

is happening. I think most developers they they get a little they maybe have a game idea that gets a bit more attention than their previous game idea and then they think uh that's the one but they

don't really have correct reference points to how an actually promising game idea would perform like.

Yeah. Yeah, it definitely could be.

Yeah, because it's uh that's where I think it's really good to see stuff like um like what Chris Sukowski has with like um all of his different like benchmark studies and stuff, you know,

case studies on like, oh, this is a game that, you know, got this many wish list when it demo came out and like you could see like, okay, what what do like the the real numbers really look like? And

uh yeah, having those benchmarks is definitely good.

Do you want to maybe provide some reference points for how how did you know Cuffbust's going to do well? what

what are like what are the benchmarks that you hit that where you were like this going to do well?

Yeah. So, um in the first week that it was announced and it it was announced at um Summer GameFest. So obviously that's that's a pretty big marketing push, but

off of that it converted into uh like 100,000 wish lists and it still it I think it averages these days around maybe 200 300 wish lists per day and

it's up to I think it's around 210,000 wish lists right now. So that's a big um proving point there that gives me a lot of confidence in it. at along with um higher conversion rates than Choo Choo

Charles.

Like if I look at the um the page views, the the number of page views and the number of wish lists for Choo Choo Charles, it's it's got like half as many

wish lists per page view as Cuffb. So

Cuffbust based like it it seems like there there's evidence that it's converting people into wish lists more effectively. There have also been a lot

effectively. There have also been a lot of times where like a really small article or like a relatively small YouTube video will get posted about Cuffbust that'll get, you know, maybe like 10 or 20,000 views, but then I'll

see a visible spike of like 600 700 wish lists. And so it's like smaller pieces

lists. And so it's like smaller pieces of content are converting into larger spikes in like genuine interest. Also,

the the YouTuber interest, the press list is I think I've got like 200 YouTubers on there. many of them. I

think the I counted up the the total subscriber count of those people is like two or 300 million something like that.

Wow. Holy crap.

It's like for me I'm not necessarily just looking at like wish list counts or like view counts on devlogs or anything like that.

I'm trying to look at all the all the the evidence that I have to see like okay the things that are really going to make the most difference like on launch launch marketing and virality things

like that like how much visibility is it actually going to get on launch and how well is it converting so it's like those are the two big things right that are going to drive revenue and both of those things so far are looking very

promising. Well, I'm I'm going to play

promising. Well, I'm I'm going to play YouTube comments again for a second and just tell you that obviously you have a very unfair advantage because you have a big YouTube channel.

Do you think that's the case?

I Well, okay. I think that the success of Choo Choo Charles is what got me into Summer GameFest. If I didn't have that,

Summer GameFest. If I didn't have that, I wouldn't have gotten the Summer GameFest placement.

But the YouTube channel itself hasn't driven that much in the way of wish lists. My my YouTube channel is because

lists. My my YouTube channel is because those half a million people are there because they like horror games because they like Choo Choo Charles. Those are

all Choo Choo Charles fans. And so to completely switch it up with a this full 180 genre swap, it's like there's some overlap. There are some people who are,

overlap. There are some people who are, you know, still interested in Cuffbust that were also Chuchu Charles fans, but not that many. That's one of the other big reasons why I just haven't done as

many devlogs for Cuffbust is because they they just don't do that well. The

people who watch my other videos just aren't as interested in in Cuffbust. Um

I think it's appealing to a completely different audience, largely different audience. And so, you know, like when I

audience. And so, you know, like when I post a when I would post a Choo Choo Charles devlog, those would get like anywhere from like 20 to 40,000 wish lists. But with like a cuff bus devlog,

lists. But with like a cuff bus devlog, it might get like a couple thousand, like like 2,000, 3,000. So, you know, yes, it is good

3,000. So, you know, yes, it is good having some guaranteed attention, but at the same time, it's Yeah, I I don't know. I don't exactly know how to combat

know. I don't exactly know how to combat that.

I see. I see. I see. So, but do you think a YouTube channel would basically be more worth it if you keep making the same kind of games? For example, if you said you'd be like a pure horror game

developer, you think you'd get more value out of your YouTube channel?

Yeah, definitely. Like if I was making a Chuchu Charles sequel right now, the channel would probably be doing great.

I'd probably actually be gaining subscribers and it would probably be super super useful for like the wish lists and the community and all that stuff. It's I think YouTube could be

stuff. It's I think YouTube could be useful if Yeah. like if you are specific to a like a very specific genre or a

specific IP then I think it it you know then your your audience can can compound over time and it can just continue to grow. But for me, I care more about the

grow. But for me, I care more about the the games themselves. I don't

necessarily consider myself a YouTuber.

So that's kind of a second thought for me. Like if I think that the game will

me. Like if I think that the game will still do well, I don't care quite as much about um the YouTube side.

Okay. So, do you plan to get back into YouTube at some point or are you just going with the flow a bit?

Going with the flow for now. I'll do

some videos probably like in the last month leading up to release and maybe a couple videos after release. I'd

probably do a devlog anytime that I did a content update, stuff like that. But

that's probably I I don't think I'm going to probably do any additional dev logs during because I mean it's pretty close to to being done at this point. So

I'm just going to finish it up, focus on that cuz yeah, it's like the marketing from doing a devlog. It's the the it's not worth the time. Like if I have to spend

three or four days making a devlog to get like a thousand wish lists, that's just not really it just doesn't really help. So it it would be more worthwhile

help. So it it would be more worthwhile to get the game out 4 days sooner.

So in general, not talking about yourself, but in general, how do you feel about YouTube for game development?

I think it's a very it's a very so-s so thing because it's like I don't think that somebody should be like, "Oh, I'm going to make this game or I'm halfway through development on this game and I

think that I should make devlogs to uh market it." I think if you're going to

market it." I think if you're going to do YouTube, you have to look at it as a long-term business decision. It's like,

"Okay, I'm going to be making YouTube videos for the next five years without getting views. And if I learn enough

getting views. And if I learn enough about it and I get good enough at becoming a YouTuber, then eventually on one of my future projects, it will be a useful marketing vessel. The idea that

it would be useful in the short term is probably not accurate at all because there is quite a bit to learn, you know, when it comes to like how the algorithm works and how to edit videos and how to make entertaining stuff that people are

actually going to want to watch and that the algorithm is going to push. So I

think it can be very use like for True to Charles it was super useful. Um it

drove probably I I I mean I think Charles still would have been very very successful without the Devlog series but the Devlog series did drive probably about half of my wish lists. So

Okay.

It's okay. Mhm.

okay. Mhm.

It's like I don't know. I don't know.

YouTube is a is an odd one. If if you can do it in such a way that it doesn't consume a lot of development time then and you willing to do it for a long time then maybe it could be worthwhile. It's

yeah it's kind of so so it really depends on what the goal is.

Interesting. But I also think that probably your YouTube perspective has influenced how you make games quite a bit. At least that's what I that's what

bit. At least that's what I that's what I hear from everything you say with like optimizing for optimizing the game for attention and so on. So I think you have a very YouTube kind of way of making and

thinking about games.

Yeah, I think honestly that's where the real value has come from for me is just understanding how retention works and how the algorithms work at a you know a fairly high level. I'm not Mr. beast or

anything, but understanding how it works more than the average uh developer. That's what's

been the most useful because I can apply that to the design of the games themselves. The marketing that I get

themselves. The marketing that I get from my own channel, like it's kind of debatable as to whether or not that's worth it, but the fact that it allows me to tap into marketing from a thousand other channels, that's what's really,

really valuable.

How do you approach learning and theory crafting in general? cuz for me at the release it looks like you're on a very steep trajectory in terms of how quickly

you you pick these things up and also your your second channel. So can you say again how it how it's called? I keep

forgetting at least I think I don't know it's Latin. I don't know how to speak Latin.

Latin. I don't know how to speak Latin.

Maybe that's how you say it.

I think I think that's how you say it.

Yeah, I think if if you watch the videos on the channel, you you definitely get get the feeling that you think about these things quite deeply and probably a lot more deeply than than the average

developer. Do you think there's a lot of

developer. Do you think there's a lot of value in that or do you specifically dedicate time to that or is it just your own curiosity driving you there?

I didn't cut out. I'm just thinking.

Yeah, no worries.

I think it comes from it starts from having I think significant goals.

unrealistic goals even. I think it starts from, you know, being like, "Okay, I want to make a a multi-million dollar game." And then saying, "Okay,

dollar game." And then saying, "Okay, what would it take to feel confident that I could actually do that?" Or like if I'm saying, "Okay, I want to make a

$100 million game. What would it take?

How deeply would I have to look into all this stuff? And how much understanding

this stuff? And how much understanding would I have to gain to feel like I could actually do that?" I think that's what it stems from. And then it's just

down to I I think the the big thing that usually helps me when I'm trying to formulate a strategy is to boil everything down to the most core

fundamental aspects that drive whatever the result is that I'm trying to get.

So, you know, with with game development, if I want to make money off of a game, it all comes down to how much attention does the product get? How

effective how effectively does it convert that attention? and how much is each user worth? That's you multiply those things and that's that's where you

get your revenue. And then it's a matter of looking into every single possible element that I can think of that would affect any one of those statistics. And

the more that I can increase those statistics, the better results I believe I would get. So, it's just once you have the core, once you know like the the fundamental

driving factors, it's just about going as deeply as possible and just thinking about like random random things like throughout the development of Choo Choo Charles. Every once in a while, I would

Charles. Every once in a while, I would think of something and I'd be like, you know, that's kind of odd. That's kind of interesting. I wonder if I if that could

interesting. I wonder if I if that could help conversion rates. And I'd make a note of it. And then after that game came out, I spent like during that six-month period where I was concepting

um different games, I was also doing a lot of research um in a bunch of different random things. A lot of psychology stuff, a lot of stuff about

just behavior and things like that.

Mhm. and just looking into anything where it's like, okay, well, could this increase attention or would this increase the odds of somebody telling their friend about a game or what's

going to increase the odds of somebody writing a positive review or like what just anything? So, I think that's kind

just anything? So, I think that's kind of the the basic process that I'm going through. It's it's some curiosity. It's

through. It's it's some curiosity. It's

unrealistically high goals and trying to hyper optimize on the the key elements that I think would drive me closer to those goals.

I think the unrealistically high goals are a very interesting point because I can see how mentally you're you're like I I can't go in this without a without a

good plan, right? You have to come up with something Yeah.

with some some way to make it work. And

then basically you the way I understand what you said is that you sort of work your way backwards from that goal. So

you're like okay these are the things I need to achieve that goal and then maybe from those you derive other questions and other goals that you research further. Do you think it's worth it to

further. Do you think it's worth it to also research random things about behavior and psychology and all that sort of stuff? Do do you feel like you're get getting good gains from that?

Yes.

Yeah. Yeah. Definitely. Yeah. That is

probably one of the most valuable things. Just understanding how people

things. Just understanding how people operate and why they operate and why people make the decisions that they make is I mean if a person truly fully understood that then they could

basically control everything. You could

do whatever you want if if you understand that. I'm not saying I do. I

understand that. I'm not saying I do. I

definitely don't. Um, but you know like that's the stuff that you know when it comes to behavior and psychology you know Apple, Microsoft, clothing brands like all of these all the biggest

companies they are the best psychologists. They are the people that

psychologists. They are the people that understand the most about this stuff because they're constantly doing studies constantly doing studies on trying to understand how people operate better.

That's why Google is tracking your every move. That's why Google is, you know,

move. That's why Google is, you know, tapping into your phones to to understand where you go and where you buy your groceries and what kind of uh car you drive and who you hang out

with is because they want to understand as much about our behavior as possible because that's how you sell people stuff. And the better that you

stuff. And the better that you understand that, the better you can sell people stuff. So yeah, it's very

people stuff. So yeah, it's very important if that's the goal.

See, what do you say? How how much of you is an artist and how much of you is is a business person? I think I got when

I got into game development, I got into it because I liked art and I liked being creative and I liked making artistic games, you know, like My Beautiful Paper

Smile is a very artistic and creative game that wasn't really made with too much with, you know, like I wanted to make money off of it, but um it was yeah, for quite a long time I was I

think I largely considered myself an artist. But when I decided that I

artist. But when I decided that I actually wanted to not starve and that I wanted to um make a living, that's when I kind of decided like that I kind of just needed to cuz like I at the time I

I really loved making games and I was like, "Okay, I love making games. I want

to make games as much as possible. I

want to spend all my time doing this. So

that means I need to make money from it to be able to do it more."

And so then I got hyperfocused on figuring out how to make money off of it. and then I became a a business

it. and then I became a a business person and now I don't like making games. So,

games. So, is that the case? Do you not enjoy the the process as much as you used to anymore?

Oh, definitely not as much as I used to.

Um, you know, there are there are some days that are enjoyable, but for the most part, it's Yeah, I think I could possibly enjoy doing like artistic stuff

again, but I haven't for a while. I I

know there's like a specific mode that you get into in when making games, especially the the last 40% of any game are always horrible. Is it just that or

are you do you think it's something in general has changed about what you enjoy and what you don't enjoy? I

I think it's more of a general thing. I

mean, I was I was having fun with Cuffbust for about a month and then after that I was like, you know what? Am

I really doing this again? Am I really making another game?

So, I'm just I'm just doing my thing.

I'm just working getting it out there.

But I'm I'm going to be taking a quite quite a break after this one.

I mean, that's that's what I did after Thronfall as well cuz I was in in a somewhat similar spot where where I was like very like I would say almost a little bit

obsessive about how I approached it because I wanted it to work. And then as soon as I was like, okay, I have some breathing room, I I'm I'm slowing things down a little bit now, both on the

YouTube side as well as on the game dev side of things. And now I'm also just a bit confused where where I want to go from here. Is it for you that you're

from here. Is it for you that you're think you need some time to figure out where to go or do you already sort of have some ideas what you might want to try instead?

I mean, yeah, I've I'm definitely kind of in a sort of a confusedish point. I'm

starting to feel like I've got a little bit more direction now. A couple months back when I kind of decided like, okay, I think Cuff Bus is going to be like my last commercial game. That's when I was

like like a deep deep depression. Like

what? Like cuz this has been like my entire life up until this point. And

then to just be like, oh, I'm just not going to do this anymore. Is definitely

a weird feeling. I mean, I'm going to get more into, you know, investing, stuff like that. Probably more into traveling. A lot of like just like the

traveling. A lot of like just like the the the general like go and touch grass type of stuff. More fitness, more time with, you know, uh friends and and stuff like that.

So, how does your work life balance look like at the moment?

You know, it's actually it's really not bad. I I work

bad. I I work probably like probably pretty t probably actually slightly less than full-time hours even.

It depends on the week.

Okay.

Um most weeks probably less than full-time even. So it's it's it's not

full-time even. So it's it's it's not bad as as is. Um and I've definitely come around more to it and just like having a schedule and just like, you know, all right, this is just my job and

this is what I do. You know, just kind of being content with it while I'm while I'm still doing it. I really like the way you you think about making games. I

think it makes a lot of sense in an interesting way that you it's not it's not the standard stuff you hear everywhere and at the same time it makes sense. That is a balance that is uh

sense. That is a balance that is uh tricky to pull off.

Oh, it's uh good to hear. Okay. So, I

would be very curious to hear what areas within my my strategies that you disagree with because you are one of

very few developers that is actually consistently put out multiple games in like completely different like genres and IP that have all done really well and that like you've done well

consistently. I feel like you're in that

consistently. I feel like you're in that regard, you're one of the most like successful and con like consistently successful developers. And so you are

successful developers. And so you are somebody that I would I would value your opinion on this much more than like just about any developer. So I'd just be

really curious to hear what you think I'm doing that is uh stupid or doesn't make sense. Well, I think the main

make sense. Well, I think the main problem we all have is that um each of us only has a couple of data points, right? I basically have three data

right? I basically have three data points. There's like three different

points. There's like three different little experiments I made. You you have three different data points. Like that's

that's not a lot of data in the in the big picture. because I think it's very

big picture. because I think it's very difficult especially also considering that I I have not tried your workflow otherwise I I would maybe feel the differences a bit more. I feel like

everything you told me on on paper and from what you told me makes a lot of sense and I also feel like I I took a lot uh from it. Honestly, this entire

perspective of of really hyperfocusing on on retention. I feel like some people would maybe criticize that there are other strategies to go about it and you

don't necessarily have to go the the viral creator route. For example, I I would argue that our first game Islanders um had a very different

strategy. It was basically p purely

strategy. It was basically p purely relying on the Steam algorithm.

Islanders is not a game that did particularly well with content creators.

It was just a very appealing game that converted well directly on the Steam store page. So everybody who a lot of

store page. So everybody who a lot of people who saw it on Steam were like, "Cool, looks nice. Oh, it's cheap. Let's

buy it." So it was like just relying on impulse purchases on Steam essentially.

And that worked surprisingly well. Got

flushed very high up the Steam on the Steam algorithm and all of that without without a lot of content creator coverage. decent content creator

coverage. decent content creator coverage, but like nothing too crazy, right? So, I think that's the only

right? So, I think that's the only asterisk you could maybe make is that there are probably different ways to go about it, but I really can't say anything that that I would say is is

wrong. Like, just there are different

wrong. Like, just there are different strategies, maybe different ways to go about it.

Yeah, definitely. Yeah. No, I I definitely agree with that. I think for me it's like the the content creator route. I think it's just like that's the

route. I think it's just like that's the area that I understand bu most and it's like because ultimately it just comes out of like getting attention, right?

Like however you get that attention doesn't necessarily matter if it's Steam algorithm or if it's just word of mouth just people being like, "Hey, hey bro, I just saw this cool game." It's like that's all attention. Yeah. I think just

for me it's like it seems like the the most the easiest way to get mass attention as much attention as possible seems like the easiest way to to reach like that global

global audience. Yeah, there there are

global audience. Yeah, there there are only really two ways to get traffic for indie games nowadays, and that's Steam and content creators, right? Like the

the two main strategies you can go for.

I feel like you you have covered the content creator strategy quite well. If

you have a game that's not as suitable for content creators, then you can still try to go for a for a for a Steam strategy and just try to do well on Steam. Do you think

Steam. Do you think I don't know what other strategies there are with so with the the steam algorithm strategy because this is like that I because I have heard this this uh kind of this whole point a handful of times

and because it's like there are a lot of games where it's like like uh vampire survivors or uh Bellatro I think are both really good examples of this are games like like content creators aren't getting above average view counts for the most part playing those games.

They're not getting nearly as much traffic as as a lot of other titles, but they appeal really well to a specific player base. They convert really well

player base. They convert really well with that player base. Do you think that there are specific like like what what would be the indicators that a game would work well with the Steam algorithm?

Ooh, I think it's a lot more difficult to test than, you know, putting out a trailer and seeing how content creators react to it. how many

people tell you that they want to play your game when it comes out. The way we test it is mostly by comparing them to each other and kind of making an

educated guess. So that's that's what

educated guess. So that's that's what what we do in in prototyping is we make a we come up with a bunch of different concepts and in order to pick the best

one, we sort of compare them compare them to each other and pick the most appealing one and that way we get a decent chance that we pick something that's actually good and that's appealing in a way that's going to do

well on Steam.

Okay, gotcha.

Um so it's a it's a bit of a different kind of appeal, right? You don't have to worry as much about um conversion. you

only really have to worry about is this something you will want to play when you see it on a store page.

Well, I feel like that would be more on the conversion side, would it not? Cuz I

feel like you're converting people almost like like just off of the store page. So, it feels like you need to have

page. So, it feels like you need to have like even more appeal.

That's right. But it's a it's a different kind of appeal. For example,

it's it's not as important like how your rounds are paced. It's not as important that they immediately start with tension. It's like maybe you get a

tension. It's like maybe you get a really appealing screenshot of you digging away in a slowly digging away a hole in in a corner of the prison or

something. And that that can do totally

something. And that that can do totally fine on Steam cuz on on Steam I think it's a lot more about the the fantasy itself like I want to be that I want to

explore that uh that kind of stuff.

Yeah. Yeah. I mean I feel like that's kind of true regardless of the strategy. And I think that's just

the strategy. And I think that's just yeah definitely important across the board.

Although I guess the question is also why not do both, right? If you you can make a really appealing game that does well on Steam and does well with content creator. So it's not like you have to

creator. So it's not like you have to decide for one or the other. I mean

ideally you can still try to go for both at the same time if possible.

Yeah, definitely. I I feel like that's kind of my goal. You know, it's like I think I'm it feels like with a lot of the games that are like really doing well with Steam algorithm, it's usually more like appealing to like a more

mature user base, probably like deeper gameplay mechanics, things like that, more system based often times. Um, and

my stuff definitely is a like a lot more casual, but yeah, I don't know. It's it

is a very interesting area that like it's not at all discounted by you know I think the the stuff that I talked about and I think it's for the people who are doing it well it definitely I mean it

feels like an easier strategy honestly because you don't need to worry about quite as much of this all this other stuff.

Yeah. It seems like a more fun way to make games, but I think it is cuz essentially the the way you can approach this is um just make a great game that you want to make and and rely on that

people will buy it.

Yeah. Yeah.

Yeah. But it's probably it's probably if you want to aim very very high then I think what you're doing is probably probably better to be quite frank.

Yeah.

Well, cool. I I'm Yeah, I appreciate your thoughts on that. Definitely.

Yeah. Also, I wonder which other strategies there are that we haven't even really touched on. This is exactly what I'm saying is like we have like to combined we have like six data points,

but there are like so many more perspectives on this probably. So, who

knows? Who knows? People will inevitably educate us in the comments.

Yes, I'm sure. I'm sure they will.

I want to thank you again for the time.

Yeah, for sure. It was it was great to to sit down and and chat.

All right. All right. Well, hey, thank you very much for having me. This was

super fun.

If you want to support Gavin with the game launch of Cuffbas, then wishlist it on Steam. If you want to listen to Gavin

on Steam. If you want to listen to Gavin talk about gamedev some more, then check out his second YouTube channel. Links to

everything are in the description. This

was a gamedev podcast with Jonas Tyroller. That's me and today with Gavin

Tyroller. That's me and today with Gavin Eisenbist.