Marc Andreessen: Blogposts, Tweetstorms, and Manifestos

The person who writes down the thing has tremendous power. Why are hyperlinks blue? Because I

like blue. You are kind of a meme lord. You're your best when you're a little bit of a rage. It's actually funny because if you could take Nietzsche from, you know, 120 years ago and put him on Twitter, he'd be like the best tweeter of all time. He'd have at least a million followers. Yeah,

yeah, exactly. There are certain like just atomic units of media that just seem to recur over and over in history. Tell me about that. Within a year or two, there is going to be a generative AI tool where you feed it an essay and it will give you the short film.

Five years from now, you know, we'll be sitting here and it'll be like, Oh my God, this has all changed. You heard it here first. There's a... So the sentence that you shared

all changed. You heard it here first. There's a... So the sentence that you shared in an interview that I thought was fascinating that you're talking about your, it's time to build peace. And you said that you wrote it in a rage. You wrote it in a rage. Tell

me about that. So, so the big one of that, I was literally rage. It was the, it was the specific event happened.

rage. It was the, it was the specific event happened.

Um, and it was the, it was the onset of COVID and at the time it was the, the, you know, if you remember the banner headlines about PPE and it was like masks, right. And it was basically masks. The prediction was all the hospitals were going to get swamped. And there

basically masks. The prediction was all the hospitals were going to get swamped. And there

was that period actually where the hospitals in New York like got swamped.

And so, and then there was just this like massive shortage of PPE. And so like literally there were people in the White House like trying to figure out how to like source surgical masks. Like, oh, there was like this competition. Then the state started competing. It was this

masks. Like, oh, there was like this competition. Then the state started competing. It was this like crazy thing. Um, and then, um, and then at one point they ran out of surgical gowns at hospitals, um, in New York. And so the, the city government of New York, de Blasio, uh, put on a call. Could people please donate their rain ponchos for the use

in hospitals? And it's like front page wall street journal, right? Story. And I read this

in hospitals? And it's like front page wall street journal, right? Story. And I read this and I was just like, all right, this is it. We've hit the like event horizon of stupidity.

Yeah. This is ridiculous. Yeah. Right. And of course, you know, this is a long running topic in like American culture, right? Which is like, are you, um, you know, does America build things? Um, and we could have a long conversation about that, but clearly if we've

build things? Um, and we could have a long conversation about that, but clearly if we've reached a point where we're, you know, looking for, clearly we've lost something in terms of the national productive spirit. Um, and so all of my bottle up energy came.

Was it Hemingway, was it Hemingway said writing, writing is the process of opening a vein and letting the blood spread out of the page. So what happened? Where were you? This is

my, my version of that. Where were you? What time of day? I was at home, I was at home.

You were at home? It was the beginning of the lockdowns. I

get the sense of you're a real night owl. Yes. So where was it nighttime and what happened?

You just go to the computer. It's like, well, that was way.

So that was at the beginning of COVID. So I was, and I actually didn't even have a home office at that point. Cause we were working. I would always be in the office, you know, during, during the day. Um, and so I was sitting in our breakfast room at work at home and I had this, you know, the breakfast chair that I was sitting in

and it was like, not or group, I can. So, but it was when, when this whole zoom thing started. And so I'm sitting there for like, Okay. 12

started. And so I'm sitting there for like, Okay. 12

hours a day on zoom calls. And I like had shooting pain all the way down the right side body. Yeah. It stopped working out. And so I, and I felt terrible by everything that's

body. Yeah. It stopped working out. And so I, and I felt terrible by everything that's happening. And I was, you know, I felt terrible about what's happening in the world. And then

happening. And I was, you know, I felt terrible about what's happening in the world. And then

I felt terrible because our companies were going to go through all this, all this chaos.

Um, and so it was kind of during that whole process. Yeah. But then, yeah, for me, for me, if it's, yeah, the writing, it'd be, it'd be late at night. So what happened? So you sit down to write that. How long does that take?

And then I get the sense that that piece wasn't really edited. I get the sense that like you write it and then you ship it. Really shortly thereafter.

Yes. Hopefully, when you say it wasn't edited, hopefully, is that a compliment or is it?

No, that's just from research. Normally, when a professional says that, they would be like, oh. Well, you have Do you have an editor? Something that you

oh. Well, you have Do you have an editor? Something that you said like a decade ago is that you don't really like to edit your writing.

And then I just vaguely remember you saying that you wrote it and then you published it right after. We did it pretty fast. So I thought, let's see what

right after. We did it pretty fast. So I thought, let's see what you think, I think the key, at least for me, the key to successful writing for a lot of people, like, what a lot of people do when they try to write is they end up writing in a very different voice than how they talk, um, and it ends up being, you know, sort of

stilted and unnatural and, and, and for, at least for the interesting people I know, the best form of their writing is when they're writing in the exact same way that they talk.

Conversation with them. So I figure like if I can just get what I would say, like overlaps out onto the page, like that's as good as it's going to be for me. Um, and so it, yeah, it's kind of, it's kind of that now, you know, I'm working in the essay format at the book format, so it's an easier, it's an easier challenge.

Well you're your best when you're a little bit of a rage. I think,

I think, I, I believe that's the case. Yes. Like I feel that. I, I

feel that. Yes. A little bit of energy. Yes, exactly. Yes. No, a lot of energy. A lot of energy. Yes. Exactly. Does that happen a lot? So this is the other thing, just in terms

energy. Yes. Exactly. Does that happen a lot? So this is the other thing, just in terms of my writing, like I don't, and you know, someday I would like to, some, someday I would like to be much more professional about this. But like, I, I don't, you know, I've read all these, you know, interviews and seen your stuff and so forth, and it's everybody, all

the professional writers have these systems for tracking all the, the, like I read that, was it Alberto Echo book at one point about how to write a thesis and he's got the card catalog system. Yeah. Some people use like Evernote. I don't

catalog system. Yeah. Some people use like Evernote. I don't

have any of that. Right. And so it's just like, I'm reading all day. I'm talking to people all day. Basically stuff is showing up in my head. It hits a point of critical mass. Um, and it basically, it's a two part process. One is an, I just like try to basically

mass. Um, and it basically, it's a two part process. One is an, I just like try to basically put, put out an outline as fast as I can. Um, I would say discourage an outline as fast as I can. So I just tried to get the structure down. Um, and then I just do basically a narrative pass. Wait, that's surprising. Yeah. You do an outline

pass. Wait, that's surprising. Yeah. You do an outline for your writing. The reason that it's surprising is most people I know who get really passionate about an idea, they just get to it. They need to get the whole thing out. That's

an anomaly what you do there. So I'm trying to go even faster. So that first phase, I'm trying to go even faster. I'm trying to get all the points out. And I don't want to slow down the process of getting all the points out

points out. And I don't want to slow down the process of getting all the points out by trying to turn them all into prose. So it's not like a detailed outline like a novelist would have or something like that. But it's like, uh, it's like basically bullet points. I sort of think in terms of bullet points. And so it's basically just if I can,

points. I sort of think in terms of bullet points. And so it's basically just if I can, if I can list the 15 or 20 key points, then I can just get them all out. And like I said, at this point, for me to be doing this at this point, I've been thinking about the topic long enough where I have a bunch of stuff that I know that I want to say.

And so I try to put it all down. And then I just, and then I try to have that be in some sort of sensible order. And then did you start with it's time to build or was that an emergent property as a catchphrase? No, that was, I mean, that was sort of the, I mean, that was the, I mean, it was literally. You stood up at the table.

You're like, it's time to build. Well, it's got it for what I, you know, it's got to be something very simple,

to build. Well, it's got it for what I, you know, it's got to be something very simple, straightforward, punchy, right. It's got to be something, you know, I like. You know,

I, I'm like, I'm trained, part of this is I'm trained in marketing and like, you know, the whole art of marketing is like, you have to punch through, like, you know, the, the world is awash with media of, of every kind. And so for, for any, anybody doing anything that they want to get, so it's gotta be like punchy and aggressive. And then for bill,

I just, I wanted to broaden out, you know, especially cause so much of what I've done historically as software, we have to recapture the spirit of industry that we used to have, um, and that we sort of a drained out of our system.

So tell me about this reading all day, talking all day, where do you fit that in? Because I was looking at your calendar, at least the one that you published most recently. Yeah, like 30 minutes for reading. Now you do have these free time sections that I want to hear about, but you said reading, talking to people.

How do you actually build that into your life? Yeah, so I would say a couple things.

So one is, um, I, I have a very, I have a very kind of, there's a very kind of fortunate twist, um, in my career and in the following sense for this, which is. The people I get to talk to all day just in my day job, tend to be very interesting people.

Um, and, and specifically the, the founders, right? Uh, a lot is, is a lot of it. So the,

the, the tech founders who kind of get all the way through kind of the whole process to like get in the room with us. Like they, they, their companies may or may not succeed, but they tend to be the leading people in the world on the topics that they're, they're that, that, that they're talking about. And then we try to get into the very deep,

you know, kind of conversations with them. And they're, and they're in a mode of trying to explain themselves as best they can. Cause they're trying to raise money and they want us to understand what they're doing. Cause they want a partner that actually understands what they're doing. And so they, they, they tend to basically just, they, they just tell us everything. It's actually a fairly amazing thing. Like

we didn't even sign NDAs. They just like come in and tell us everything. Right. Um, and

so, um, and then I've got, you know, the ones that I meet with personally and then I've got all the ones my partners meet with that they tell me about and then we've got all the notes from all the ones that, you know, I'm not able to be in like an hour with somebody who's a specialist in topic X. You're just going to learn a lot. That's,

that's not obvious. Um, so that's part of it. And then the reading side, I'm just basically every day. I've always been like this. I just, I'm reading basically every spare minute that

every day. I've always been like this. I just, I'm reading basically every spare minute that I have on your phone, iPad, sort of everything. And so actually, interestingly, um, the air pods are probably the single biggest technological leap in my life since I was probably a little kid that like actually really mattered. Um, cause they're the unlock for me for audio books, um, and podcasts and interviews and all these things. And so I'm doing audio content

probably two to three hours a day. And it's, you know, getting up in the morning, going to bed at night, all the drive time, like all, all that, all that stuff. And so if nothing else is going on, I'm always listening, listening to something.

What's your podcast? To audiobook ratio. So it goes back and forth If I'm going down the rabbit hole on something that I'm, that I'm kind of hoovering up podcasts and YouTube interviews. And, and then, oh, the other thing is, it's actually a really wonderful time

interviews. And, and then, oh, the other thing is, it's actually a really wonderful time for this now 'cause the tech, tech tope stuff is getting really good.

Um, and so, you know, more and more on like the sub stack app has really good text, text to speech. And I use this thing called natural reader. That's, it's really good. Um, and,

to speech. And I use this thing called natural reader. That's, it's really good. Um, and,

and in fact, Apple's actually producing audio books with, with AI voices, um, which sounds spectacular. It's like, it's really starting to work.

spectacular. It's like, it's really starting to work.

Um, And so if I'm down the rabbit hole, I'm going as deep as I can and, and doing that.

Um, if not, I'm, I generally am trying to get no, no offense to a prominent podcaster.

I try to get back to audio books as much as possible. And the reason is just because audio books are my opportunity to really learn a new area that I probably don't know anything about. Um, and so if I, if I can, if I can scrape

about. Um, and so if I, if I can, if I can scrape aside 10 or 20 hours of audio time for, you know, a period of history or something like that, I can really go deep on it. Do you have a sense for the kinds of books that you like doing on audio books versus when you're actually reading them? Or are

you fairly indifferent to the trade offs there?

So for non fiction, I am trying to actually get back to reading more non fiction And I've actually like over the summer got my whole like the whole, you know, Kindle set up and like it worked on all this And I might be downloading the occasional book from LibGen Probably shouldn't admit to that. Of course only books that I've also purchased In hardback,

which is actually generally true But in practice, most nonfiction books, mostly that's audio.

But then look, the other part of it is just, you know, most of my time is spent reading, you know, it's reading online material of one kind or another. Um, I, I, I generally try to, my, my general method is to try to barbell my information intake. So it's either stuff that is super current, uh, or it's stuff that's timeless.

Um, and so what I'm trying to do is not read, uh, basically not try, I'm trying to not read anything that's from yesterday through to like 10 years ago. I'm trying to like screen all that stuff out. And so I'm trying to be super current. And the form of being super current is talking to people who are currently experts or it's, or it's specifically Twitter, right? It's sort of the, you know, sort of the fire,

right? It's sort of the, you know, sort of the fire, the fire hose on Twitter. Um, and then for timeless, it's, you know, at that point, that's almost all books, but I kind of go back and forth between these modes, right? So yeah,

I'm either listening to like a book on usually history or biography or something like that.

Or some new demand that I'm trying to learn, or I'm like, up to the minute, here's what's happening in AI today. How did you come up with this idea of group chats? Like you are the group chat king, and I think that the way that you're using group

chats? Like you are the group chat king, and I think that the way that you're using group chats is very interesting. You know, look, it's become very fashionable, you know, these days for people to be like, oh, you know, online communication is terrible compared to real world and all this. It's just, people are loving the whole thing.

And I actually think like, there's some truth to that, but I actually think the opposite of that is also very true. Which I think you probably have this experience that the people you're on a chat app with or in a group chat with like you probably essentially talk to every day, every day, right? And so you have this like constant ambient, you know, basically communication. So I've got, you know, friends that I, you know, I've

got, I don't know, some set of friends across all these things. One to one communication is. limited for obvious reasons. And then, you know, I would like to live in a world

is. limited for obvious reasons. And then, you know, I would like to live in a world in which every discussion could happen fully in public.

Um, and you know, and actually I, you know, I went through my own transformation on this, along with a lot of people. So where Quran would have something to say about the effectiveness of that? Right. I mean, he's, yeah, no, his, his book on that is exactly relevant. When I started being active on Twitter, which was, I don't know, whatever, 2013 or

relevant. When I started being active on Twitter, which was, I don't know, whatever, 2013 or 2012, you know, not that early, but 2012, 2013, like, You know, my assumption was still, you know, like incredibly naive assumption. Wesley, you can just talk about everything that you're thinking about on Twitter. Turns out that's not true, which, you know, I learned

the hard way, you know, sort of several times. Um, and so, you know, we live in a, we live in a time, you mentioned teamers work. So this idea of preference falsification. You

know, basically this is a private private truth, public lies, public lies.

And it's just like we live in an era for better or for worse. We live in an era in which I think the level of public lying is like, you know, it's like it's got to be near an all time high. Well, to get back to this group chat idea, I think

time high. Well, to get back to this group chat idea, I think that this would be. You know, if insofar as there's public lies, but insofar as, Hey, you can actually get interesting things out of group speech and you get a certain kind of truth, how would you think about curating a group chat so that you maximize the truth?

Because there is something that happens, like there is a beautiful scale between like four and eight people who have high trust. And then once you hit like 10 people, all of a sudden you get stage fright and all of a sudden you lose some of that public, now it begins like a, it begins to be a performance or something like that.

And I wonder how, how would you think about group chats to get the best information, the best people together? Yeah. Well, so I think that's part of it. And then I maybe put an orthogonal thing on it also, which is, um, there, there

of it. And then I maybe put an orthogonal thing on it also, which is, um, there, there is this well known sort of concept of group polarization. So you, you put a group, a bunch of studies in this, you, you put a group together and they're sort of predisposed in a certain direction. And then you let them talk amongst themselves

direction. And then you let them talk amongst themselves for some period of time. They all end up much more extreme on whatever that is. Um, and

so, you know, there's a stereotypical example would be like, you know, people who like enjoy like shooting guns on the weekends, but aren't particularly political about guns.

Yeah. A year later, they're going to be like, oh, together they will have become like raving second amendment. Yeah, exactly. Or whatever, or whatever that issue is. Card carrying NRA

second amendment. Yeah, exactly. Or whatever, or whatever that issue is. Card carrying NRA members. Exactly, right? Because, because what, you know, what happens is the group's

members. Exactly, right? Because, because what, you know, what happens is the group's existing tendencies reinforce each, you know, sort of, you get this sort of social effect, social proof effect, where They kind of all go.

And so I, I think part of it also is it, it's never just about one group chat to really do this. Well, it's actually several or many. You want to have a whole bunch and you want

do this. Well, it's actually several or many. You want to have a whole bunch and you want to have a whole bunch with, with people with very different perspectives, ideally very different perspectives, very different inclinations. And then if you take the meta view, you kind of, is what you kind of watch them all and they're all kind of going off kind of in their,

in their, in their own direction. And then, you know, some of them just got, get too extreme or locked in or down a rabbit hole, you know, and then maybe that's the time to create another one and kind of reset the dynamic. Oh, and then, and then the other thing back to your point on selecting things is like, as you know, it's like any, it's like a dinner

party. Every person matters. It's very easy. You know, like it's very easy to, it's very

party. Every person matters. It's very easy. You know, like it's very easy to, it's very easy to have a dinner party where nobody's, you know, nobody's really speaking up. And

is that interesting? And it's kind of dull. But it's also very easy to have a dinner party where there's one person who totally destroys the dynamic, right? It just makes it all about themselves. And so there's the, and then you've got the

right? It just makes it all about themselves. And so there's the, and then you've got the social protocol of like, so if you'd say you got the social protocol with eight people and everybody kind of realized everybody, you know, seven people realized that that one other person shouldn't be there. So then you create the spinoff and then it's like, you got to make sure the other person doesn't find out about the spinoff. Yeah.

You know, it's funny if I take like a meta view, uh, Yeah. Yeah.

The last 10 years of reading your writing, I find this, like this stutteriness between this deep drive that you have to be prolific and be creative.

That is core and it's back to that rage. Like it just burns within, like I can feel it, but at the same time, this public image that you have and some of the controversy that you've been around and you sort of have gone in these fits and starts. That's true. Yeah. Yeah. Very much. Well, so then I specifically just, you

and starts. That's true. Yeah. Yeah. Very much. Well, so then I specifically just, you know, this is maybe a general problem also for a lot of people is.

You know, if, if, if I were like a full time like public intellectual or writer, you know, just representing myself, you know, there are things that I might say or issues I might get involved in that I find very exciting and interesting, but as the world exists today, like I, you know, I represent a firm. I represent all of my partners.

I represent all the companies we work with. And so that, that. You've probably seen me in public kind of going through this, but like in practice, there's a calibration process where I want to be true to myself and I always want to be honest and I want to be interesting and I want, you know, we have a point of view on things.

We want to get that point of view out. But like, I can't, I can't be reckless in doing that. I have professional responsibilities that preclude me from being reckless. I would

that. I have professional responsibilities that preclude me from being reckless. I would

say pick my topics, but also pick my methods of engagement. And that's, that's an ongoing process, for example. So the current arrangement that I have with my partners who love me and I respect them enormously, uh, for helping me with this, um, you know, I, I'm not like an active tweeter, right. Cause it's just, it's just simply too easy

to get in trouble on that. Um, but I am allowed permitted by them and by myself. Right. I

can write essays. Right. Number one is just like the essay really gives you a chance to like fully articulate yourself. Right. Um, and then it's just harder, you know, people can take excerpts out of an essay or out of a podcast, but it's just harder to like take a single, like the way you can take a single tweet and hang somebody out to dry with it.

It's like, it's, it's harder to do that out of a, out of a, out of an essay. If, if only because they're actually is this, people don't have to imagine the surrounding context. They

can actually see the surrounding context. So at least I think for right now, for me, it's, it's essays and conversations is what, what I can practically do.

I miss the Straussian days when your Twitter likes were a way of communication. So that

was very, yes, yes, there's real signal there. And then I would get, yeah, this is the thing.

This is the, uh, and then I would literally get the reporters literally would write hit pieces on me about my Twitter likes. And again, if I were just like, you know, if I were just like Marc Andreessen, private citizen, that would be fine.

But, you know, we're representing, you know, whatever 500 companies that we work with.

Like I can't, I can't do that. I can't put those CEOs in a position where they have to explain to their employee bases why Mark likes a tweet. Well, it's crazy because you, you are kind of a meme Lord. Like you also came up with software is hitting the world. How did that happen? 2012 Wall Street Journal.

the world. How did that happen? 2012 Wall Street Journal.

Was it something like that? Yeah, But around then. So yeah, so, so that one was more what I thought was a statement of the obvious. My big worry on that one was it actually wasn't provocative enough because I thought it was just sort of like obviously the way the world was going, but the thing that made it provocative, I think at the time.

Um, was that was the, that was sort of in the aftermath of the 2008 crash. And, you

know, we, we had just started the firm and we're working with all these companies and we're looking around and it's just like, mobile's taking off and the cloud is taking off and SAS is taking off and like all these things are taking off and it's just like, you know, newcomers and broadband and mobile broadband and all these things.

Social networking. And it's just like, wow, like if you look at what's actually happening, it's just this like explosion of an option. I mean, that's really when the internet kind of went, you know, kind of really went hit the knee of the curve and became, became central to everything. And how did that piece actually get written?

Like what was the Genesis, the, the big bang theory of that piece?

No one's written on a frustration. Maybe it's supposed to rage. Ah, okay. I'm sensing a pattern here. Yes, exactly. So, so again, it was like actually sitting down and writing.

pattern here. Yes, exactly. So, so again, it was like actually sitting down and writing.

It didn't take very long, but it was, it was years of discussions and thought, you know, and sort of building up the thesis and kind of thinking about it.

Um, and then it was just frustration, it was just, and honestly, a lot of it was just the frustration of the daily headlines that were just, I just thought, like, just ridiculously overly negative. Um, and, um, you know, people just, like, did not understand what was happening.

overly negative. Um, and, um, you know, people just, like, did not understand what was happening.

And, and, you know, look, I, I, I, part of what I try to do with writing is I, I get frustrated when I think people don't understand something, but of course, then, you know, it, that actually, that, that I, if, if I come to my senses, I'm like, no, it's my fault because I haven't explained it, and I should at least try to explain it.

Um, and so, um, it's up to people whether they listen, but I'll, I'll at least try.

Um, and so, um, yeah, it was to try to basically work out that frustration, at least lay out a thesis for, um, you know, for, for actually for in, in the tech industry for optimism and then outside the tech industry, uh, you know, maybe people might want to actually understand what's happening. What does it say about your approach to distribution that that was a Wall Street Journal op ed? And then

10 years later, you write, it's time to build. And that is on an owned and operated property that you have. We'll see if I'm allowed to keep the section.

Um, so we, um, you know, we, we just assumed that we were trying to place the software, it's the world thing. And we talked to, you know, we'd end up being the wall street journal, but we talked to a bunch of different people about it. And,

and I would say by, yeah, so 2020 was, was the, it's time to build. And so we, we actually thought, you know, we might as well, like, see if the journal run it again. And they

were like, nope. Um, and then we were approached the other, like major pubs and they were like, nope. Um, and so it was quite literally turned out, um, and it was actually a catalyzing moment for me, which is it was because, you know, I, like everybody else, I had tracked the sort of rising hostility on the part of the kind of mainstream press towards tech, you know, kind of between the 2015 to 2020 era.

But I still was at that point, like holding onto this idea that they were still like the, you know, the venue for like serious thought discussion. Um, and then they, they, that, that was when they convinced me, they convinced me that they weren't. Um, and then, uh, in, in retrospect, probably what I should have done is built up a much bigger independent audience much faster. It's worked out. This

isn't news to you, but dude, you invented the tweet store. I know exactly. Yes, exactly.

Well, and yes. And I played some role before that. And so how did that happen? Yeah. Oh,

so the tweet storm, well, it's okay. So the tweet storm is just that I have too much to say and you know, this 140 character thing is just like obviously inadequate.

Yeah. And Elon hadn't come along yet. So you could do, you could do a lot for him. What

were the early days of that like? Probably frustration. It was just like, I have, I have more things that I want to say. And so I'll just like, keep, I'll just keep adding on tweets. And then of course it was an enormous, at the time it was an enormous amount of,

tweets. And then of course it was an enormous, at the time it was an enormous amount of, let's say half serious and half comic, half kind of comical, you know, blow back.

Right. Which is like, you know, you're doing it wrong. Right. You're, you're abusing the medium. And I was like, I, I, you know, I mean, yeah, sure. I'll abuse the medium. But

medium. And I was like, I, I, you know, I mean, yeah, sure. I'll abuse the medium. But

that's, that's what they're there for. There are certain like just atomic units of media that just seem to recur over and over in history. Yeah. And it's funny cause they go in and out of fashion, right? Uh, and so there, there used to be this thing called the aphorism, right? And, and so the, you know, these, these, there were like great writers and philosopher,

right? And, and so the, you know, these, these, there were like great writers and philosopher, like half of what Nietzsche's output was like aphorisms and all these other Rochefoucauld and all these people would write it as aphorisms. And then at some point that became like a self, there was like a self has like a, you know, poor Richard's almanac kind of thing.

And at some point they got corny and people like stopped using aphorisms, you know, like witty little asides and stuff like that. It just kind of went out of fashion. And then

tweets, right? And Twitter brought back the aphorism, right?

Twitter is aphorisms as a service, but it's like there is, right? There, there is historical continuity there, right? And it's actually funny because if you could take Nietzsche from, you know, 120 years ago and put him on Twitter, he'd be like the best tweeter of all time. He'd have at least a million followers. Yeah,

yeah, exactly. He'd have a, great banner image on his, on his, uh, on his page. But, you

know. God is dead. Yeah, exactly. He was great at that stuff, right? Um. And then, you know, the other one is the essay. Right. And I, when I, you know, kind of when I grew up, I never really read essays growing up because, you know, by the time I was like reading, it was, you know, basically all the serious, basically all the serious work was happening with like long, you know, long form narrative prose.

Um, but you know, there were prior eras where like essays, you know, if you read like a lot of older, if you read books, by the way, including Nietzsche's books from like 100 or 200 years ago, like A lot of books in those days, they were just basically compilations of essays, right. You know, today they were just basically, you know, you, you'd have

like a hundred cha a hundred small chapters. It's like a much more of, of a common format.

And then a lot of books were serialized or, you know, things would start out as like newspaper articles and then they get rolled up into being books. And so you, you had this sort of short form narrative pros thing, but then when, like, books went really big in the 20th century and became like a mass market thing, you know, it became 200 or 300 pages became

the format everybody wrote in. It was just still the case today. It's like,

you know, eight or 10 chapters, 200, 300 pages. And so, and so essays became this like weird literary academic thing that nobody really paid attention to. And then blog posts, right?

And then all of a sudden the essay is back, right? Um, and so these, you know, these, these, basically they're these, oh, then my other favorite example is poetry, right?

Like when I was a kid, it's like poetry is like the, I don't know, it's like people did in the old days. And it's like some, you know, I don't know, some literary fancy thing that, you know, normal people don't read. And then of course, hip hop, you know, brings literally, you know, poetry, right? Yeah. Right. Um, and so anyway, yeah.

So it turns out these literary forms basically recur over and over again. They never die.

And then, and then it turns out the, the internet is like the, you know, the, the, the sort of meta medium for all of these. Ultimately, I think that's the big breakthrough, like, um, sort of communicates sort of information conveyance kind of breakthrough of the internet is the internet is capable of representing every other prior form of literary art or visual art, right. Um, or audio or anything else. And so all

of a sudden, right, aphorisms and essays and poetry in the form of, you know, Tweets and blog posts and rap lyrics are just like explosively, right. You know, uh, important, um, and you know, primary means of communication. What was the motivation behind your personal blog? It was the same thing. I was like, I had a

blog? It was the same thing. I was like, I had a lot to say. Well, actually a lot, a lot of that. Okay. Frustration. A lot of that was okay. Frustration. A lot of that was, uh, I would say a bad startup, bad startup advice.

okay. Frustration. A lot of that was, uh, I would say a bad startup, bad startup advice.

Um, and so there's just, you know, there's. There's an, well, there's an oversupply of bad advice in the world generally, but specifically there's probably an oversupply of bad startup advice. There's a lot of people giving advice to startups

advice. There's a lot of people giving advice to startups that maybe have not actually been through all the things that they're, that they're talking about. And for better or for worse, I've been through it all and I've made all

talking about. And for better or for worse, I've been through it all and I've made all the mistakes and I've seen it all. And I've lived with the consequences of all the decisions that you make at a startup. And so I figured I should just actually start to write some of this stuff down. What'd you learn from having Venkatesh Rao around? Breaking Smart is so good. Breaking

Smart. He was our first and only philosopher in residence. Uh, which is actually something I would like to do again. I, I just, we've been too busy, but I would like to do that again. So he's one of these very special people.

again. So he's one of these very special people.

I've only ever met, I think I'd say I probably only have really ever met three people in my life who I would describe as basically, um, perpetually lateral thinkers, L A T E R I A L, lateral. Um, uh, in that, and I actually tell you there, it's actually him, it's Balaji Srinivasan, and it's Peter Thiel. Um, and with those, and those, they're, they're

very different, you know, they're very different views and very different kind of life trajectories.

But with what they all have in common is when they're presented with a situation, they never think about it the way everybody else does. Like they just, they don't.

And so as a consequence, like I'll spend as much time with the three, you know, the three of those as, as, as I possibly can. Because what I find, um, like I'm an okay lateral thinker, but they're, they're much better than I am. And I think it's, it's, it's, it's two things. Um, one is they're just really smart and they know a lot about a lot of things.

two things. Um, one is they're just really smart and they know a lot about a lot of things.

Um, and so they're, they're able to, to sort of apply a lot, able to kind of cross different kinds of knowledge together. Um, Uh, but the other is they just, they, they, they all have, it's not even habit, it's just how they are. They, they do this reflexively. Um, and so if, what I find is if I spend time with them, I start to also do it reflexively because

I just, I always think like, okay, well, you know, what, if, if I were a true lateral thinker the way they are, like, how would I think about this?

Um, and so, you know, being with them over the years has kind of trained me of like, okay, when somebody says X, like never just take it on face value, always be like, you know, okay, there's another way of looking at this, you know, or if somebody proposes a certain plan of action. Right. Or somebody has an assessment of how the world works.

Like let's come at it from multiple angles and try to think about that. Why

wouldn't you just hire like 10 insane lateral thinkers, put them on payroll, pay them a hundred grand a year and just have them around? Like that just seems like such low hanging fruit. You have the internet. Like, why don't you do this?

fruit. You have the internet. Like, why don't you do this?

It might be a good idea. Yeah. I, I, I think the, the practical objections for it would just be like, okay, are they really not, you know, if they're so smart, shouldn't they be in the decision making loop? Right.

No, but it's smart along a different vector, right? Like Venkatesh Rao isn't going to build billion dollar startups, but he's doing this for you.

He's lateral thinking. He's getting you out of your, you know, the same sort of cycles of thought. This just seems like the easiest low hanging fruit that I don't understand

of thought. This just seems like the easiest low hanging fruit that I don't understand why people don't do more. It's the group. It may be a good idea. It's the group dynamic thing. It's like, okay, now you've got more people in

good idea. It's the group dynamic thing. It's like, okay, now you've got more people in the room. Fine, then have three of them. I know, but

the room. Fine, then have three of them. I know, but like, it's just every person in the room changes the dynamic. Are people going to be embarrassed by what they have to say? Because these guys, you know, you know, so everybody's going to wait to hear what these guys say, even though they're not making the decisions.

And then why are they not in the room? They're not making the decisions. And then the younger people in the organization are like, wait a minute, they're filling up seats in the room. I should be in. So it's just a, it's a, yeah. I mean, it's a good prompt. It's

room. I should be in. So it's just a, it's a, yeah. I mean, it's a good prompt. It's

a good challenge. Um, yeah. I, I mean has anybody has that ever Actually, I mean, we, we, we did. We, it was great for us while we, while we had him, but like, is that ever, has anybody ever done what you're saying? Like I think Peter Thiel totally does it. He does that some what? Yeah. With certain people. But,

but I will tell you, I mean even, it's a good example. Like there, there is descent, it causes problems. It's, it's not without it's, it's not without his broken glass, you know, and then there'll, you know, you know, there's some cases there'll be jealousy, like, you know, he has, you know, he's got these other people that have his ear. I don't know. So it's, it's, there's some balance with running the organization,

ear. I don't know. So it's, it's, there's some balance with running the organization, but it's a good, I'll, I'll think on that. Okay. That's a good prompt. Cool. And then

of course the obvious one, you know, the, the, the obvious one that everybody's kind of has looming over their head right now is. You know, should, should, uh, you know, should there be an LLM in every room, right? And for the, for the same reason, right? Should,

should there be like a, a, you know, a bot in the chair, uh, right.

That's well, you can see, of course, nobody is actually doing that today. I've not heard of a single instance of anybody doing that. They all could be doing that today. Yeah.

You know, actually voice, voice recognition is getting really good and what they call disambiguation is getting really good. So you have systems now that can do real time transcripts or group conversations, which means you could be feeding it to an LLM and have it be weighing in, you know, five years from now we could be sitting here and everybody's doing it. How

doing it. How does your background as a software engineer show up in your writing? That's a good question. I would like to say software is itself a literary genre. Um, you write software code as, as, as prose.

genre. Um, you write software code as, as, as prose.

I got a D minus in computer science and actually... So I slept through my final, I showed up an hour, 15 minutes late and I got a D minus going to office hours and trying, I totally failed the class, but the professor definitely felt sorry for me and bumped me up to a D minus. So like when you talk about software engineering,

minus. So like when you talk about software engineering, like break it down for me, man. So do you still have nightmares? I have other nightmares about tests and all.

nightmares? I have other nightmares about tests and all.

I actually, you know, you were the reason that college was ruined for me because. I

was in North Carolina, and I went to these lectures that weren't very good, and I kid you not, I promise I'm not just blowing smoke, I used to go back to my room, and I'd be like, why would I go to a lecture with some random professor if I could read your tweets in my room, and then I ended up finding YouTube, and actually that was part of the the idea.

thing that sent me on this journey of saying, Hey, you can use the internet to learn. And

then I was like, wait, this is a two way medium. You can use the internet to write, meet people.

And that was like the greatest thing in the world for me. Yeah. Well, it didn't seem fun like that. And that's, both of those realities

for me. Yeah. Well, it didn't seem fun like that. And that's, both of those realities are still hanging out there and we still have this giant education system that doesn't take that into account. And we still have this giant, you know, publishing system that doesn't take this into account. So. The world is not adapted yet, you know, to, to, to either of the, uh, of those aspects. Um, so, so the way to think about software,

and I, uh, I think this is a very interesting topic, um, writing software is like a combination of writing a novel and building a bridge. Like, and at the same time, right? Um, and,

and start by saying it's not the same thing as building a bridge. And one of the ways, you know, it's not the same thing as building a bridge. Um, is that if software people built a bridge, you would never want to drive on that bridge, right? Like every piece of software that has ever shipped in the history of the world has bugs.

Right. Move fast and break things is not what you want to do for the Brooklyn Bridge. Exactly right. So it's not civil engineering.

It's not that kind of civil engineering, which is to say, and there's a reason for it. It's

not just because software people are like bad at engineering or lazy or whatever, don't want to get things right. It's because there's a creative element to it. That is just missing from things like building bridges. Um, and again, not that

it. That is just missing from things like building bridges. Um, and again, not that building bridges isn't creative in a way, but like the creativity of building a bridge is gonna be an initial design. The implementation of the bridge is gonna be making sure it doesn't fall over. Sure. Whereas with software, you're kind of

fall over. Sure. Whereas with software, you're kind of creating all the way through. And the creative part of it is, so there is a structural part.

Like the software actually has to work structurally. But it is like writing a novel, right? Or

like painting a painting, which is like different, basically, you know, different, different, different, it, it, it, it needs to be a form of creative expression and the best programmers are very good at doing that. And so, so, so it's the, it's the, it's this hybrid thing. So, so the way to think about it is this right brain and left brain, quantitative

hybrid thing. So, so the way to think about it is this right brain and left brain, quantitative and qualitative. Probably not a coincidence that Paul Graham

and qualitative. Probably not a coincidence that Paul Graham wrote a book called Hackers and Painters. That's exactly right. So it

is that. Um, and then the specific form of what you're doing is you are literally writing, right? Um, you are literally writing code in the

right? Um, you are literally writing code in the same way that you would write a poem or the same way that you would write an outline.

Right. It's structured writing. And so it, you know, there's a certain format for it and so forth and say, you know, the little semicolons have to go in the right places, but yeah, you do write it. And then by the way, as you write it, you, you comment it. Right. And so you, you actually interleaving English language descriptions.

Yes. And then what, what's happened is programming languages have evolved, um, where, um, they're getting higher and higher level over time, which means you're, you're getting more and more out of the details of like how the computer works and you're getting into these kinds of higher level abstractions. Um, that let the programmer basically become more productive. And now you've got a giant change happening in real time, which is the

more productive. And now you've got a giant change happening in real time, which is the new coding, the old coding interface was your code and then you run it. And then you see where all the bugs are and you try to fix the bugs. The new coding interfaces, you've got your code and then you've got a chatbot. The co pilot and the co pilot is like reading

your code and like giving you like real time comments on like, you know, you idiot, you got this wrong. Right. Um, or the chat bot is actually writing the code for you and then you're giving it feedback, you know, you idiot, you got this wrong. Right. Um, and so now you've got this concept. We have this old concept in the old days called

pair programming, where you'd put two coders together in front of the same keyboard and they could talk to each other and kind of write code together. Now you're going to have pair. And that was always a rare thing because. Most people didn't do that, but now you're

pair. And that was always a rare thing because. Most people didn't do that, but now you're just going to have pair programming happening much more broadly, which is human plus machine.

And by the way, I think this hasn't happened yet, but I think the same thing is going to happen for every other form of writing. Yeah. Right. So I think prose writing and fiction writing and everything else in the future, I think most professional authors are going to be working in that kind of format. And you'll kind of, you'll have this continuous

dialogue going with an AI at the same time that you're, you're, you know, that you yourself are, are, are in charge of the overall product. Well, I think it's not a coincidence that Silicon Valley's contribution to writing culture has been Density and very good logical arguments. If you're used to writing code, you are used

arguments. If you're used to writing code, you are used to thinking of writing a structure. Well, honestly, probably that's why I think in terms of outlines, um, it's because code effectively takes the form of an outline. Did you teach yourself to go to learn the code? I taught myself to code. I taught myself to code out of a book before I owned a computer. What? That's that's how I knew when I was,

yeah, when I was like 10, when I, because I, I I'm of the age where I was, I, I sort of hit adolescence, right? As the computer became a thing. Um, and so I, I, I basically discovered computers, computers are all over the news, but like people didn't have them.

They didn't like exist yet. That's why you went to Urbana Champaign. Just

rolling, ultimately, later on, ultimately, but I'm talking about like 1980, 1981. So

when I was like, you know, nine, 10, 11, you know, it's kind of when the media media wave hit, it was like when Apple became a big thing and all the, you know, Steve Jobs was on the cover of everything at the time, uh, you know, as a kid.

Uh, and then, you know, I'm like 10 or whatever. And like, there's no computer anywhere within like, you know, a hundred miles where I was. Um, but there was a book in the library that was like, learn how to code. It's like, okay, sounds good. And so on the bus ride, you know, all day, all morning and all night, you know, um, driving to and from school, I'd be sitting

in the back reading the book and writing code. Were you good at writing in school? Uh, well,

I, this school, this school, there was not a lot of writing in the school I went to.

Um, so I, I don't even think I kind of schooled you go to writing's pretty standard, a rural, a rural public school. Okay. Yes. Uh, in the middle of nowhere. So not, not, not, not a lot of, not a lot of tough cases on that, but, um, but, um, uh, yeah, no. And I just, I always love, you know, it's have a systems orientation to things. Like are comfortable with the idea of like

systems and structures and, and, and, you know, math and things like that, but also people who don't just want to do that, right? People who would be very unhappy if they were just like an actuary or account or something that, where they also want to have the creative element are able to do that. And so it's, it's a hybrid of the two.

So what's the binding constraint on you writing more? Don't tell me time because that, no, no, no, no, I'm telling you, actually, that's not true. Okay. Because you wrote software's eating the world really fast and you wrote it's time to build really fast. So it can't be time.

So, yeah, so I've been, yeah, this is a perpetual project. If you have somebody to do list, this is a perpetual project. Like I shouldn't be writing more and I am working on something right now. So nice. Well, here's what I would say though. There are

right now. So nice. Well, here's what I would say though. There are

writers in history who do really well by writing every single day.

And then there's other writers who it just comes out of them. Uh, the woman who wrote Frankenstein, she was like on a trip in Switzerland and she had a dream and it just went and it just poured out. So, I think that time, I'm just not sure that that's actually the binding constraint. That's very good feedback.

constraint. That's very good feedback.

There we go. Performance. Performance. I just. It's very

inspiring. I deal with, I go 100 students a year who just try to give me every single excuse that they possibly can. And I, it's just literally my job to be like, ah, it's not the best. Okay. I'll tell you the thing that has tortured me the most on the writing topic of everything. So I had the privilege one day, several years

back, I was spending a day with a guy named David Milch. Who is the writer? Um, uh, he's, um, he's a television film writer. Um, Deadwood on HBO is probably his like magnum opus, but he's, you know, a legendary guy who's like on all these things. He's one of the best living, he's one of the best living fiction writers.

Um, and I spent the day with him and, um, and he, at the end of the day, he's, he, he gave me one of those looks. Um, and he's like, you should be writing fiction. Oh, wow. And

it never even occurred to me to write fiction. I've never even tried to write fiction. Um,

but every time I make my list of things that I should do at some point in my life, I feel like I need to try to do that. I feel like you could write a TV show or a movie. Yeah. He, he, well, yeah, I, I, it would have never occurred to me, but it was one of those, it was like a voice of God moment where it's

like, okay, if that guy's telling you, you should try it. You kind of have a lot of obligation to try it. So I do have an idea. Okay. Here's what I really want to write.

Here's what I really want to write. There we go. Okay. Here's, here's what I really want to write. I want to write a Romanticlef. What is that? A Romanticlef is a novel in which, um, all of the names and dates and events are fictional. But everything that happens in it actually happened in real life. Um, and so it's like a laundered autobiography

or memoir, right? Um, and so there are various examples. Uh, a TV version of a romantic laugh would be the, if you've seen the show, Ray Donovan. It was a, it was a show about a Hollywood fixer. Uh, the guy who goes around and like fixes problems for studios with like all these

fixer. Uh, the guy who goes around and like fixes problems for studios with like all these everything screwed up Hollywood. And the, the, the, the, it's a fictional show, but the legend has it is that every single situation he fixes in the show is something that actually happened in Hollywood at some point. Um, and so, um, yeah, I, you know,

you know, 30, 30 years now in tech, like I've seen a lot of stuff and I'm never going to write it. I would never, ever write a tell all, uh,

write it. I would never, ever write a tell all, uh, and I would never like, you know, basically launder people out, um, you know, by name or in any way that's identifiable, but I've seen a lot of crazy stuff. And so my, so here's one of my, one of my crazy ideas is like basically just like write down every crazy thing I've ever seen and then, and then weave it into a fictional narrative.

So anyway, if, if, if maybe this, if, if I ever publish a novel, every single thing in it will have actually happened. You heard it here first.

Exactly. Well, this is funny because this picks up on one of the paradoxes that I've noticed about you. Which is, on one hand, an intense privacy, and on another hand, a desire to be prolific and in public. I

mean, look, the nature of what we do, it turns out it matters. Like, people care. And, you

know, sometimes they get really happy with the results. Sometimes they get really upset.

Um, you know, look, the drama in the tech industry is like wildly up over the time.

You know, you know, when I became involved in tech industry, like everything was all cute and fun, right? All the new products, you know, like the press coverage for all the new products were like, wow, this thing is really great. Or, you know, boy, this product isn't as good, but maybe the next one will be good. And now, you know,

you know, it's just like every say, it's just like, you know, we, we now intersect in every area of human life and all the big issues that people are worried about.

Two things. One quick comment. Someone should

write a book that is like Tim Wu's book about information, centralization, decentralization, about what you're saying about the different creative mediums. Free call to write that book. Next thing, how much internal writing do you do at A16, just in your, a lot?

book. Next thing, how much internal writing do you do at A16, just in your, a lot?

So what form does that take? For me, writing, it's a lot of emails, a lot of, uh, text, a lot of the art of the text message. Um, uh, but we, you know, we, we, we process lots of written material, um, and every once in a while I'll write something long form here. If I'm writing something long form here, it's usually like around a new

initiative, like, or like, uh, or like a topic where there's like serious conflict or ambiguity.

And I'm trying to kind of write down in a single place, like here's, you know, here are the different considerations and here's maybe what we should do about it. So I do that once in a while. So that's like an internal version of the essays. Tell me more about your actual writing there. Do you have a process for that, that's similar as you're writing,

take a different form when you're doing that? Do you feel like your writing is better in a certain way than, than when it's in public? Tell me about that. I

think it's the same thing. Same thing. I actually think it's the same thing. It's the same thing.

If I'm writing that, it's because something is coming to a head. Like there's an issue, right? And it's either there's a problem we need to fix or there's an opportunity we need

right? And it's either there's a problem we need to fix or there's an opportunity we need to jump on. But that will, at the time that I'm writing, it follows probably some long period of discussion that's happened and it's been kind of rattling around here for a while and then it's time to like get it out in a, in a, in the form

of an artifact. Well, by the way, one of the things I've observed, maybe this is, this is the kind of thing where I feel like everybody knows this and yet nobody, very few people actually act on it, or maybe people don't know it, which is like, the person who writes down the thing has tremendous power. Huh. Independent of their actual formal role

in an organization or in the world, there are so few people who will just like write down the thing. Um, and so I see, we see this at companies all the time, which is, you know, one of the ways you find like the up and comers at a tech company. It's just like, okay, who wrote down the plan? And that doesn't mean they came up with everything.

And that doesn't mean that they had all the ideas, but like they're actually able to organize their thoughts that actually have the energy and the motivation, the skill to be able to communicate it in a written form. Like that, that actually stands out and you would think that that was, I would always kind of assume everybody would know that, but like the number

of people who will actually write anything down in a, in a, like in, in, in, in, you know, with that requisite level of like comprehensiveness and quality.

I mean, even in a meeting, note taking is low, is low status. I think if I, yeah, if I were, I don't know if I had this in my career planning or not, but yeah, this is part of my standard reviews to part of my standard advice to kids, which is just like, Nope, be the person in the meeting who voluntarily like takes notes and then writes up the summary at the end and, and

then you have to fairly represent everything for junior artists.

You have to fairly represent everything. I mean,

the other thing is say that some rando wanted to get to you, if they wrote you a very well written email, I would say that the chances of you reading that are a hundred percent.

Now, I don't want to like flood your inbox and stuff like that, but actually maybe that's my goal. Like what if we, a hundred X, the number of

my goal. Like what if we, a hundred X, the number of extremely well written emails that came to your inbox, contrarian perspective, domain expertise, well written, chances you're going to read that are at least 90, right?

Yeah. Yeah. It's very, it's very rare. What's going on? That seems like a market inefficiency or there's a broader topic here, which is just like, I mean, you can, you can spend all day long and something badly written, you know, text and content.

I think all the time. If I see an old book, I think this only exists like a really old book had to be written. And then in order for there to be another copy. Somebody needed

to write the entire book down. I mean, rabbis do this now with writing the whole Torah by hand, but that's how books used to be. Now, you just go Command A, Command C, Command V, send it off, and then you can send it to a bunch of people.

And so it's like, it's gotten too easy to write now.

Exactly. So, so here's, here's the paradox. Here's the paradox. It's now so easy to write that we are absolutely awash in bad content. Like the world is just awash in bad posts, bad tweets, bad books, bad laws, bad text code, bad everything. Like it's just, we could spend all day long just drowning in bad content. And you know, a lot of, a lot of us do. On

the other hand, like it ought to be, these tools are now so effective that there ought to be a giant explosion of high quality content that goes right along with that, we, we ought to also be a wash in like the most amazing written material that we've ever seen in an entire lives in every genre. So the other side of it is like. Where's all

the good stuff? Yeah. Like where are the, where are the, you know, super genius, brainiac authors, screenwriters, novelists who are producing like a much larger amount of material at much higher speed? I mean, that's the, that's the reason for my work is trying to create those people. It just seems crazy to me that the internet

in some sense has created a flowering of new content, but. It still seems hard to find, and I still just feel like at the absolute tails of quality, it should be a hundred X more. Exactly, right. Because all those people can email you and you're going to read it.

more. Exactly, right. Because all those people can email you and you're going to read it.

And it just, it seems like a weird inefficiency. Uh, I think you're the guy to ask about this.

Why are hyperlinks blue? Because I like blue.

Is that why? Yes. It's a nice firm color. It's easy to see. So what's the story here?

You're sitting in an office, had to, it had to be some color . What'd you do? You just had to go into the H E X code and you wrote six numbers and letters.

This at the time. So at the time we were doing this, you know, I was trying to forget, it's like a lot of com, a lot of graphics, computers at that time only had 256 total colors. They

had some eight, eight bit color, eight bit color palette. Um, and so you can kind of see all 256 colors and it's kind of like take your, take your pick.

They could have been salmon. Yeah. Right. Right. Yellow. I mean, they had, they had to be something that like actually stood out on the page. Yeah. Um, and so it was basically gonna be blue, red, purple, green. I don't like those other colors. That's crazy. By

the, by the way, I also, I didn't quite get this across.

The other thing I did was I don't like reading text on white backgrounds cause my, my eyes are a little sensitive to light. And so the, if you look, look at early Mosaic and Escap, the backgrounds are always gray. And so it was black text on gray backgrounds and I used to get a lot of black for that. But what I, but I was, what I was, what I really wanted

was dark mode. Um, but I couldn't get there at that point.

'cause the displays weren't good enough to do. Black, white text on black backgrounds back then was hard to read 'cause you didn't have enough shades of gray and you couldn't quite get the, you didn't, didn't have screen resolution. Have that be a appealing thing.

What's your read on why there's been such stagnation in the quality of comment sections?

At this point, you're asking very fundamental questions about human nature. You sort of invented the internet. So I'm like, if I'm going to have a, a day where I could ask these questions. Because the equivalent question of what the one you just asked is, why are there so low, so many low quality commenters, which is, which is a human condition question. So the serious answer is to start with give

the devil his due. So like, I will tell you like Reddit, uh, I'll call it a few, a few counter, a few things where I think comments actually, I think Reddit comments work incredibly well. Um, and I think those guys figured out like, uh, a long time ago, but like, you know,

well. Um, and I think those guys figured out like, uh, a long time ago, but like, you know, Steve and Alexis figured out like a formula, a way to do that with the karma system that like works like incredibly well, like. I think that works really well. I actually

have been really positively surprised by YouTube comments. I don't know if whether you have this experience, but like for at least a lot of YouTube videos I watch, actually they do a good job of surfacing quality contents bearing the bad stuff. Um, I think the Twitter algorithm actually has gotten a lot better over the years.

You need some sort of consciously calibrated system to evaluate service quality. By the

way, LLMs also should help with this because LLMs are very good at evaluating text. Um,

and so you, people should, this is probably true, this is already happening, but people should be running, you know, if you're building a commenting system, you should let the LLM evaluate it. And you, and you can do it even, you can just

evaluate it. And you, and you can do it even, you can just ask LLMs, like, is this text good? But you could also say like, look, like, what's the emotional loading on the text? The LLM could tell you is, is, you know, is a comment angry or happy or whatever. And you could say, you know, somewhere, you know, you can basically say bury the ones that are angry. Um, and so I actually think it's pretty good,

um, on look on the systems that, um, you know, the systems that don't do that consciously, you just have a, you know, you just, you just drown under all the, all the, all the, all the bad stuff, the missing feature that doesn't exist on the web that we almost got in, but didn't weren't able to get in. So the missing feature was going to be a writing,

a writing layer, the commenting layer on top of web pages. Uh, and we actually prototyped it. We hadn't actually in the original version of Mosaic, we called it annotations. Uh, and

it. We hadn't actually in the original version of Mosaic, we called it annotations. Uh, and

the idea was basically, the idea basically was every web page, you know, the web is inherently an asynchronous medium. So, you or I are reading a page, we're probably reading it at different times at different pages or whatever, but Every now and then we might be on there at the same time. Um, or you might've been on there yesterday and you might've had an interesting thought and maybe you should have had the ability to add

your thought to that, right? And if that, if that, if that, if that's happening in the format of the page itself, you would call that like a wiki or a comment section.

But we had, we had this idea that there should be like an overlay. It should be like basically a commenting system overlay on top of the entire web. Uh, implemented in the browser, right? And so that literally you could be looking

right? And so that literally you could be looking at a web page and either us at the same time or at different times, you know, the fact that we're both looking at it, each of us could then post right commentary on top of that, that, that everybody else can see. And maybe there actually be multiple layers of commentary. And so we actually built, uh, we built what

commentary. And so we actually built, uh, we built what I call the, uh, the annotation server. Uh, which was going to be the central repository of all the annotations on top of all the web pages. And what happened? That was a big thing to bite off. Cause the annotation server was going to have to scale to cover the entire web. Slightly sizable project. Yes, exactly. Right.

web. Slightly sizable project. Yes, exactly. Right.

Um, and so, and then there was all this UI stuff. And so it's, it's just the feature that we never got to. Um, but there, there is a funny how these things evolve. There,

there is a on earth too. Um, there are, there's an, there's, there's an entirely different writing environment. How has.

writing environment. How has.

Online writing morphed in a way that's different from what you would have expected 20 years ago. The degree to which internet writing is the

ago. The degree to which internet writing is the forum now in which politics plays out. Is just mind blowing. Um, and for a very long time, that was not the case. Um, and if you wanted to, like, when, you know, like, people had political discussions on the internet, and, like, even the 80s and 90s on Usenet, but it was, like, isolated in, like, some weird Usenet group, where they were just talking

about that. But, like, if you were in, like, a, any other,

about that. But, like, if you were in, like, a, any other, if you were in, like, I don't know, like, the, like, the Cats Usenet group, or the, you know, San Francisco Bay Area Usenet group, or whatever, nobody ever brought up political topics. It was just, like, a, it was just, like, a whole, of course you wouldn't do that.

topics. It was just, like, a, it was just, like, a whole, of course you wouldn't do that.

Um. It would have been a considered rude to do it.

Um, and then it's a switch was flipped in like, I don't know, 2015, maybe 2014, 2013, where all of a sudden it's just like everybody. just starts infusing politics and everything.

And I think part of that was just an external thing that happened, which is the, we just went into a different political realm. Um, unrelated to the internet or, you know, not, not, not just the, the, something external happened that then changed.

Like in the Martin Gury sense. Yeah, exactly. Yeah, exactly. Like just the world changed.

And so therefore everything changed. And so therefore this is one of the things that changed.

But I, but I also think, look, the other thing that happened was the internet just became central. Like the, the internet just became the place where people Do everything and read

central. Like the, the internet just became the place where people Do everything and read about everything and learn about everything and argue about everything.

And so part, part of it is I think the dog caught the bus, right? Like we wanted to be central to people's lives and then we became central to people's lives. And it turns out one of the things that one of the things that is central to people's lives is politics.

So if the internet became central and it lies, it was necessarily going to become hyperpolitical.

And all internet content was going to become hyperpolitical, which is, you know, a lot of what basically has happened. And I like that, that, that, you know, I would say that was, yeah, maybe just, that was as big a shock to me as it was anybody else. I kind of couldn't believe it was happening when it was happening just because I was so used to the older model.

Do you ever read for style or do you only read for content? Um, in practice, I would say I only read for content That said, it is always really

content? Um, in practice, I would say I only read for content That said, it is always really fun. I read reading for content and I come across somebody who is writing with outstanding

fun. I read reading for content and I come across somebody who is writing with outstanding style. It, it is amazing how much it still punches through. I like, I'll just give an

style. It, it is amazing how much it still punches through. I like, I'll just give an example, like, but I, like, I read a lot of biographies, um, and so I just read the, the Teddy Roosevelt biographies, but Ed Morris Oh, I've heard great things about those.

Yeah. And like Carol probably still is maybe one notch, but like Edmonds, uh, Morris is like one notch below Carol, which is, which is to say like one of the best in history.

Right. And, and just the. This, the stylistic quality of the writing, I remember listening to another one right now that I won't, I won't name because I don't want to insult him, but like, you know, it's, it's very good. I've been listening to very good biography on a different president right now, but, um, it's not, you can just tell the stylistic

fall off is like dramatic. You just, you kind of wish like, you know, boy, like, well, this goes back to the LLM topic, right? Which is you kind of wish like in theory, all writing could be like that. What are the things about style that Are really enchanting to you. It's just like every single sentence word ever. The deliberate the deliberate choice of every single sentence words structure.

Is it the vibrancy? The poetry? What is it? It's maybe it's my computer science thing is a lot of for me. It's like structural.

It's like, it's like everything flows exactly right. He spends exactly the right amount of time on each topic. Um, it has exactly the right amount of detail. It uses exactly the right words. It, it, it creates the exactly the right emotion. Um, and it's just this like incredible, it's, it's, it's actually outside the experience I usually have, which is, you know, most of what I read, I would say is it's, it's great.

It's professional, but it's not, you know, it's not Robert Carroll level or Tom Wolf level. But then every once in a while, I'll stumble on something that really is at that

level. But then every once in a while, I'll stumble on something that really is at that level, and it'll remind me that it actually is possible to write at that level. And then

it's just like, yeah, it's just like, that's, it's an amazing experience while you're in it. And then that ends and you're just kind of

it. And then that ends and you're just kind of like, well, I got to go back to the work, workmanlike pros, you know, which is, which is a lot more common artists, right? Like there are at the top of their game, right?

Like there are just certain people who are at the top of their game. What, uh, James Elroy. Who's that? James Elroy? I have no idea who that is. Oh

Elroy. Who's that? James Elroy? I have no idea who that is. Oh

my god. All right, good. Okay, good. I'm glad I can do this. I don't even know what that is. Oh, so he's the, I think he's the greatest living American novelist. Uh, his genre is

is. Oh, so he's the, I think he's the greatest living American novelist. Uh, his genre is crime novels, but that's a little bit like saying Shakespeare did love stories. Under

Elroy El Elroy is writing a series of novels that basically are turning 20th century American history myth. Um, and, uh, his most. So his most famous

history myth. Um, and, uh, his most. So his most famous work is LA Confidential, um, which you may have seen, seen movie. You haven't seen the movie. Okay. , new World for me, Mr. Andreessen La Confidence. A movie set in, uh, in, uh,

movie. Okay. , new World for me, Mr. Andreessen La Confidence. A movie set in, uh, in, uh, in la uh, it's a crime movie set in LA in the 1950s. Um, Russell Crowe and, and all these, all these great actors. Um, Uh, and so the, the movie's great and I want to ask her, isn't it great? And then the novel LA confidential is like 20 X more

expansive. It's just like this incredible kaleidoscopic recreation of Los Angeles history.

expansive. It's just like this incredible kaleidoscopic recreation of Los Angeles history.

And, uh, in the 1950s, he wrote a recent novel called perfidia. Um, he has a new quartet he's writing, um, about the 1940s. He's actually going back in time as he gets older. Um, but, uh, perfidia is one of his more recent novels and it is, it's like a

older. Um, but, uh, perfidia is one of his more recent novels and it is, it's like a thousand pages, incredible detail. Um, but it's the story of what it was like in Los Angeles the week after the bombing of Pearl Harbor. And that is, is very significant because they thought they were next, like in real life they thought they were next.

Like they, they thought literally LA was like the next target and the Japanese bombers were going to show up at any moment and like destroy the city. And so the, the whole city went into like an incredible, like a, just like complete like paranoia, II.

Um, and so that was the, you know, that was their origination of like the Japanese. That

was when the Japanese internment camp program was developed. And so it was like this incredibly potent, intense period of time. And he creates this sense of like being there. Uh, and if you read interviews with how he works, um, he doesn't know he's one of these guys doesn't own a computer. He still writes on a typewriter. Um, he lives, he lives in the, he's like very deliberately tries to live in his, in his time era. So

he like, he still goes to the library and like pulls like microfilm, like newspapers in the 1940s. I like that line creates a sense of being there. Yeah.

Yeah. Like you get a sense of like, okay, this is really, I mentioned David Mills before he does this. Like if you watch Deadwood, you're like, okay, I think I'm finally seeing what it was like to be at like, you know, the old West and like 1860, like this is really what it was like. I could like, you know, the mud and

the stench and the, you know, and people desperately trying to hold on to their dignity. I'm surprised

that you haven't mentioned science fiction because as a kid, that's a huge influence on you. Yeah. So what changes?

I don't know. Maybe it's just, there's so much in real history, like science fiction.

I mean, by definition of science fiction is speculative. And so you're, you're, you're, you're, you know, you've got novelists doing their best to kind of predict how real people act, but in history, real people actually acted right.

And like so many, like just incredible bananas, bizarre, you know, both incredibly good and incredibly bad things happen in history. And people made such great decisions and terrible decisions. Another good thing that David Milch doesn't do along these lines is like everybody's

decisions. Another good thing that David Milch doesn't do along these lines is like everybody's drunk all the time. Right. And, and it's, and if you go back, it's actually been worked on on this. It turns out like in the American South and, and, uh, West, uh, and back to the Kelowna era, people used to drink four X more alcohol per capita than

they do today. Wow. And part of it was they couldn't get clean water. Um, and so you would roll out of bed and start drinking beer. And so people were just like hammered around the clock. And so, and then they wonder why they would get all these fights, right. And

the clock. And so, and then they wonder why they would get all these fights, right. And

all these horrible things would happen. And they'd be making these terrible judgments and be getting in all these. And it's like, a lot of it was, they were just drunk, but you have to. You have to have somebody who takes you by the hand and like makes it clear what that was actually like, because it's not something that you can experience yourself. What's your read on how different kinds of

drugs like weed, wine, beer, how they influence writing and creativity? Well,

I think they influence like the entirety of culture.

So I think, I think it was to start with, I just think they influence everything, right?

And so the classic example of this was the cutover, actually started I think in England, the cutover from alcohol to tea and then coffee. Caffeine was like, basically that was the catalytic event. The, it was the chemical catalyst literally for the enlightenment.

catalytic event. The, it was the chemical catalyst literally for the enlightenment.

Uh, right. And then, and then actually led to the development of financial markets. Uh,

financial markets actually started around basically like coffeehouses. What do you know?

Lloyd's of London. So yes, I've heard an insurance company, right? So, and it's, it's, it's, it's, and so Lloyd's London was one of the first like professional insurance companies.

It was literally just a group of people who would meet at a coffee shop. Um, and they would basically just like underwrite policies. And then a lot of like early scientific discovery was people would meet at coffee, coffee houses and like exchange these things and they would get together and, you know, American whaling industry, it was all over.

People would be hanging out with the coffee hounds at the pub and trying to figure out Paris. Yeah. Right. Exactly. All the literary salons and then ultimately like political,

Paris. Yeah. Right. Exactly. All the literary salons and then ultimately like political, you know, revolutionary, you know, salons, um, all that stuff. And so, so you, you've got these kind of, you've, you've, you know, basically everything interesting that happens, you know, there's some group of people who come together and are interacting with each other and trying to figure things out. And if they're all drunk, it's what set of

conclusions and activities. And if they're all like buzzed on, you know, caffeine, you ever seen Hunter S. Thompson's daily routine?

Yes, exactly. Right. Exactly. Exactly. Exactly. It's crazy. It's like wake up at three 15, you know, drink, have whiskey, snort cocaine. And he just, and then he starts at like 2am starts writing.

Exactly. Right. Exactly. Well, or another version of that is I ran. So I ran. She was

on Benzedrine for 30 years, the amphetamine, um, and the high, high potency amphetamine, um, essentially meth. Um, and, and, and it has long term consequences. Like it actually, like over time, it actually like degrades your judgment.

Um, and then in our era, right? Um, in our era, of course, alcohol is still a major factor, but also we have withdrawn nicotine, which is a stimulant, right? And so there's, there's all these very interesting questions about rising obesity levels and dropping testosterone levels. And there's a fair number of people who think that those are both consequences

levels. And there's a fair number of people who think that those are both consequences of the decline in smoking. Yes, you withdraw nicotine, you get those side effects, um, and then you're pulling energy out of the system. And then especially if you're, if you're replacing nicotine with pot, you're going back in this context, you're going backwards because you're replacing a stimulant with a depressant. Right. Right.

So it's almost like you're reverting back to more of what it was like when everybody was drunk all the time. Right. So now everybody's high. What do you like about green tea? Um, it's a, it's a, it's a, um, it's a way to deliver the right amount of caffeine. Um, if I drink a diet Coke or a full coffee, um, I get. Overcranked.

Died coke. Yeah, yeah. So I need a, I need a, I need a continuous feed of the right, I need to not let, if I, if I drink the amount of caffeine I would like to drink, I start skipping heartbeats. Ah. And so that I shouldn't. So

skipping heartbeats. Ah. And so that I shouldn't. So

continuous. So how many of these do you have a day? I don't know.

All the time. Oh really? Yeah. Nice. Tell me about your office. It seems

like you love this place. And the funniest thing about it is you stack books, you don't put them on shelves. Yeah. So I, yeah, I, at some point I should get like shelves made. So I just ordered, right. You have it. Like

I know I, I order books all the time. What's going on.

I just think it's an interesting thing that has sort of emerged here. So basically when I, when I, when I, when I start, when I started making money, I basically just decided I'm just going to buy every book I think I'm ever going to want to read. Just like, I'm just reflexively going to just buy all the books, buy all the books. And so I just constantly have like books showing

up. And then, yeah, in theory I should, I should have some kind of system for that.

up. And then, yeah, in theory I should, I should have some kind of system for that.

I don't. So they just pile up. It's cool. It's a vibe. The goal is just to keep, yeah, keep the piles relatively. Yeah. It seems like you like this place. Relatively

organized. I mean, I'm just, I'm just imagining you're a night owl. So you have this really cool home office and then that's where you would do your writing. Yeah, basically. Yeah. What makes for a good home office. Books, books, I don't know. Books, green tea, uh, music.

home office. Books, books, I don't know. Books, green tea, uh, music.

I, you know, I like listening to music, um, almost always, um, uh, on headphones these days. Um, so I like, I like, I like a lot of different kinds of music. Um, especially,

days. Um, so I like, I like, I like a lot of different kinds of music. Um, especially,

especially I like a lot of classical music. I like jazz. Um, I like a lot of, uh, a lot of different kinds of, different kinds of rock, but for writing it's what I've actually been doing recently is on, on YouTube in particular, like, uh, Synthwave or, um, there's this genre called Future Garage. Uh, or low or low five. So like trying to

get music that is like the right level of interest in this where it gets the buzzing part of the brain to be stable but is not distracting. Yeah. Uh, film class. Yeah. If

I really want to get in the mood. Are you a song on repeat kind of guy? Uh, no, no.

No. I would get too frustrated. Um, okay. But yeah, but like. I like the trance.

Okay. All right. Okay. Yeah. Same song. I listened to the same song like 45 times yesterday. Yeah. It's great. Yeah. But it's gotta be, it can't have a, in my

times yesterday. Yeah. It's great. Yeah. But it's gotta be, it can't have a, in my experience, it can't have a song with that much, there can't be that much going on in the song. Or it starts to get old and then it starts to get annoying.

the song. Or it starts to get old and then it starts to get annoying.

So yeah, something with like a consistent beat. How do you think walking, working out influences your creativity? Uh, I don't think. Not at all. I don't think so. Really? I have all these friends who, you know, go on, go on meeting walks. I don't

so. Really? I have all these friends who, you know, go on, go on meeting walks. I don't

really do that. Um, when I, when I, when I, when I'm on the treadmill, I'm watching TV.

Um, sometimes I'm on Twitter, but yeah, I, that's my disconnection time.

For me, like once I get my heart rate up going to walk that for me, it's like my best creative time. I don't think so. You know, that's what Nietzsche wrote, you know, eight

creative time. I don't think so. You know, that's what Nietzsche wrote, you know, eight hours a day, you know, he would walk eight hours a day in the mountains.

And I think literally that's why his books are just like essays, aphorisms, essays, aphorisms, is because he would just like write in his notebook for a year. And then bundle it up in a book and ship it out the door. What do you think we could learn from your partner, Ben, about writing? Oh, so he's an actual, unlike, he's an actual successful A real writer here. He's an actual successful Professional writer.

Okay. So now we get to, yeah, now we get to actually The podcast begins now. It begins.

It actually becomes useful. Oh, this was all a preamble into the, into the good part. So

Ben, Ben has a, Ben has a number of, of, uh, of, of great traits for this. So one is his father was a very successful, is a very successful professional author.

So his, oh, so his father is a guy named David Horowitz, um, who is a very, um, he's been a very active political writer, activist. Um, he, he's sort of a famous character in American politics because he was on the far left of the 1960s. He was one of the creators of what was called the Berkeley Free Speech Movement, which was sort of the birth of the

hippie movement and the anti war movement in 1964 in Berkeley.

And then, uh, David actually was a fundraiser for the Black Panther Party, uh, in Oakland when they were like the, when they were like a very, a potent force in American politics.

And then in the, in the news, so he was very active. He's one of the leaders. He, he ran a magazine called Ramparts, which was like the big magazine of the, of the radical left in the, in the seventies, in the sixties and seventies.

And so he was like a literate, he was, so when Ben was a kid, like his father's business was. was writing and he was writing books and running a magazine. And then in the eighties,

was. was writing and he was writing books and running a magazine. And then in the eighties, David went hard right. Um, and so he signed up for the Reagan revolution and then he has sort of moved further and further to the right over time.

And he's now like a very enthusiastic Trump supporter. So he's kind of done the whole, done the whole arc. Um, and so Ben's, Ben's, Ben's reaction to that has been in two forms. One is Ben is as non political as you can possibly get. Uh, Ben's conclusion from watching his father is stay out of politics. And, and Ben's father really enjoyed it, but was always leaning into controversy and was always getting people mad at him.

And so Ben's very nonpolitical by, by orientation, which is why he ended up in business. But

David was always writing, um, and has written, probably has written 40 books and probably, you know, an infinite number of, David's one of those guys who's like published entire series of like his, like, you know, assembled essays.

Oh, his autobiography is called Radical Son, which is a fantastic book, which talks about this whole journey that he went on. That's a, it's a great book. Um, so, so Ben grew up, um, you know, kind of with his father doing that. And then specifically his father in the seventies wrote three bestsellers, which were nonpolitical, which were biographies.

And it was biographies of the Fords, the Rockefellers, and the Kennedys, uh, family biographies.

And actually Ben was a research assistant when he was a kid on those books. So, uh,

Ben met, uh, uh, uh, uh, Bobby Kennedy Jr., who's running for president right now. So

Ben met him in the 1970s when Ben was like 15, um, when, uh, when, uh, when, uh, when Bobby Kennedy was in the news for a lot of stuff that you can find on his Wikipedia page.

Um, so. So he just, he's just, yeah. So he's just always, you know, live, you know, from a literary family. Um, yeah. And then he, you know, he decided for, we, we did our, our company we did together, loud cloud. Um, you know, he, he had enough kind of, let's say he had enough sort of assemble scar tissue, uh, to have enough material for a book.

Um, and, uh, and that went really, and that went really well. And he, he cracked the code.

This was one of the things I was thinking about a lot, like. You know, look, there's a lot of people who write like business books or, you know, how to books or coaching mentoring books of different kinds, but most of them come and go.

But every once in a while you get one that just like sells basically forever, right?

And Peter's, Peter Thiel's book Zero to One is like that. And Ben's book, The Hard Thing About Hard Things is like that thing just like sells and gets translated into, you know, you say they can like 27 languages now or something and sell all over the world.

What would he say about your writing as if he was your coach? My coach? Uh, I, you know, this is

your coach? My coach? Uh, I, you know, this is actually, okay, I can tell you exactly what he would say, um, so uh, he's, so I'm working on a thing right now, I'm working on a big, for me a big thing right now, um, the manifesto, the big thing, um, it'd probably be 30, 40 pages, um, but for me that, for me that's

big, um, but, but I am, I am behind schedule. Um, and so he referred to me the other day as the Kanye of blog post writers. I'm getting a head nod over there about behind schedule. It's first time I got a reaction, the entire interview. So I was, it was supposed to be out by now, um, but I've been kind of,

I, I, I have a very high bar on this one. I wanted to actually like stand up to time.

Wanted to rip. Yeah. And so, um, uh, I'm, I'm behind, I'm behind on my, my, my self imposed schedule. Um, and certain people around here who might be in this room are very frustrated.

imposed schedule. Um, and certain people around here who might be in this room are very frustrated.

Um, but Ben said, what are you talking about? You're the Kanye of writing blog posts, right?

In other words, by the way, he's referencing like Kanye before.

Sure, sure, sure. I'm still trying to figure out Kanye means a lot of different things. So what does that mean? I think in, in, in Ben speak, that means, um, it's going to take the time it's going to take and then it's, it's going to be, but then it's going to be good when it comes out, it's going to be creatively, it's going to be good. So I took that as a compliment. What would

be good. So I took that as a compliment. What would

your writing be missing right now? Oh, so for this one, for this one, I'm trying to have it, this one's, this one is like, this one's like, this one's like trying to argue, argue for a philosophy, right? So, so on an important topic, like how to, how to think about a very, a very important thing in the world.

Um, and so, um, and it's, it's, it's on, it's on technology, philosophy of basic technology.

Um, and, um, there's just, there have been a lot of very smart people for a very long time who have been thinking about it, writing about that topic. The role of technology in society has been something that like a lot of people have thought about, um, and I've, and I've read a lot of, you know, I've, I've read their stuff, but like it's, there's a lot of content there and there's a lot of arguments there, right?

And there's, you know, I'd say there's both good and bad arguments for technology being both good and bad in society. Um, and so, um, I wanted to, I want to basically, Yeah.

For any, anybody who'd like knows all of that, or is doing that today when they read this, I want them to think, okay, I may or may not agree with him, but he at least understands the topic. Yep. He's, he's read it all. He's processed

the topic. Yep. He's, he's read it all. He's processed

it all. He's responding to the actual arguments that people make as opposed to, you know, skipping it or not paying attention to it. So, walk me through the process of how you thought about writing a big piece. Well, it's not done yet, so.

Yeah. So, this one is, uh, yeah, so this is the biggest, probably the biggest thing I've written, probably the biggest thing I've written. So, yeah, I mean, look, a lot of it's the same. It's just the, you know, think, think for a long time, read a lot, um, you know,

same. It's just the, you know, think, think for a long time, read a lot, um, you know, kind of get my, get my own kind of head organized around it. And then it's basically for this, it's been kind of working through outlines, um, you know, trying to try, like I said, sort of bump it out all the points then start to kind of organize them.

Um, and you know, kind of fill in, fill in, fill in the structure, kind of get zeroed in on the hat and then start crafting, you know, kind of go point by point and draft Google docs. Uh, yeah, yeah. Right. At this point, at this point, Google docs. Um, uh,

Google docs. Uh, yeah, yeah. Right. At this point, at this point, Google docs. Um, uh,

And I've just like, I, I could go back and forth on like, should I cite and probably, probably, I'm just not gonna cite anything. So like, for this one, I'm probably not gonna cite anything. I'm gonna make all kinds of claims. I could cite them all. I'm probably

cite anything. I'm gonna make all kinds of claims. I could cite them all. I'm probably

not going to. Why? Um, 'cause I don't need to , honestly. Who cares? . Um, just everybody actually care. Um, but I am gonna give a reading list at the end. Um, you know, so if you,

actually care. Um, but I am gonna give a reading list at the end. Um, you know, so if you, if you want Yeah, I'm gonna give a reading list that if you read all the stuff in the reading list, you would have documentation of everything.

I, I, I claimed. Um, and then, um, yeah, then I'm trying, and then, you know, it's a little, it's a manifesto, so it's a polemic, you know, it's intended to, it's intended to persuade, it's intended to rally true believers, um, and so it's got to have that kind of spirit and energy to it. I've been reading a lot of older manifestos to try to, you know, just

kind of get, get kind of into the right spirit. What have you been learning from that? I mean,

it's amazing. Yeah. This is one of those things. It's actually kind of amazing. There aren't

more manifestos. Like it's such a, you know, there are lots of manifestos that never went, went anywhere. But if you look at the impact of like, you know, the communist manifesto

went anywhere. But if you look at the impact of like, you know, the communist manifesto or like I read, reread the, um. The fascist manifesto. Fascist manifesto.

Or, um, have you ever read the Futurist manifesto? That's the one I was thinking of. Yeah. Yeah.

Yeah. The, uh, Miriadi. Yeah. Um, of course, which was sort of, um, it's an artistic and literary statement that captures the spirit of its time that also foreshadows the rise of fascism. Yes. Italian fascism. Like it really, Miriadi

of fascism. Yes. Italian fascism. Like it really, Miriadi actually played a role. It was one of the inspirations for Italian fascism. And so it was, it was sort of simultaneously artistic and emotional and intellectual and, and it, it, it, It was sort of political, um, except references like the glory of war in there and things like that. But, you know, he, of course, had no way to

predict, you know, again, it's like 1910 or 1912 or something, you know, so these guys have, you know, he'd have no way to predict, you know, Marx couldn't predict what happened later, you know, even the people who are overtly political can't predict what happens after the fact. So he was somewhere in the middle on that.

the fact. So he was somewhere in the middle on that.

When you ask for feedback on your writing, what are you trying to get feedback on? I mean, mostly praise, you know, just like, you know, ego stroking. Yeah, um, Mark, this is amazing. I've

never read something like this. People make me feel good about myself. That's my main, that's my main motivation. Um, you know, mostly it's, um, well, I mean, so several things I'm looking for. So one is just like, is it going to make too many people mad? Um, especially for, for unintended, unintended reasons. Uh, like if I'm going

people mad? Um, especially for, for unintended, unintended reasons. Uh, like if I'm going to make people mad, I want to know I'm going to make them mad. I don't want to like accidentally make them mad. And I, and I have made people accidentally mad in the past. Um, and then, um, that's part of it. And then, you know, clarity, like,

you know, does it make sense? Does it convey the thing? Um, and then also, you know, quite honestly, you know, especially from people I really trust, um, you know, it's like, okay, like, is it, you know, does it, does it move? You know, is it like, you know, you know, is itty, is it stylistically good enough? Like does it, you know, does it bog down?

Well, it's like the old, it's like the old say the old writing advice of like, you know, you write your thing and then you take your last paragraph and you make it the first paragraph.

And I'm always kind of thinking like that. Like, do I have it ordered? Right? Is it gonna hit hard enough upfront? Is it gonna keep, have kind of motivating force all the way through? And it, it's really, you know, you know, all these things work. By the time you've

through? And it, it's really, you know, you know, all these things work. By the time you've written one of these things, you're too close to it and it's really hard to.

You read it with fresh eyes. And so what do people critique you on the most? Oh, I probably making people mad. So, so, uh, yeah, dialing in the aggressiveness and then, um, I don't know, like, you know, like I'm going for, like, like I'm going for effect a lot of, so, you know, some of the feedback will be like, wow, like, you know, this is awfully

polemic or this is awfully, you know, and it's like, yeah, that's the.

You know, sometimes the feedback is like, yeah, that's, but that's exactly what I'm going for. Like, I'm not, I'm not trying to be like an objective observer. You know, I'm

going for. Like, I'm not, I'm not trying to be like an objective observer. You know, I'm not trying to be the sort of, you know, 30, 000 foot observer of things that are happening.

I'm trying to like, you know, it's all something that's like happening right now that we're in the middle of. Would you ever write a film? Short film? Only

if, yeah, David Milch weighing heavily on me. Yeah, I don't know. How

about for something like this, eight minute manifesto, boom, throw it on YouTube, hits. That is not a bad idea. That is actually quite a good idea. Give me the assist. That

hits. That is not a bad idea. That is actually quite a good idea. Give me the assist. That

is a good idea. Exactly. You get the goal, two points. I'll take one point for the assist. That is a very good idea. Well, this is a great example. So this

is a great example of like, and there are examples of this, right? This does happen.

Um, but yeah, like that arguably was the one I just saw somebody just did this. I can't

remember what it was. Um, but yeah, look, because of what the technology now makes possible, maybe there should be far more literally animated shorts, uh, right.

If you're doing a manifesto and you're trying to do something with energy, throw it in a film, eight minutes long, throw it on Twitter now, I think you'd do pretty well.

Well, and again, it's the circulation of mediums over time, like short films have always been a thing, but they're not. Have you ever been to a film festival where they do short films?

No. I went to these a couple of times in college. Well, it's just like it's weird, right? Because

it's just, it's a weird genre. It's like short stories. Like it's a weird genre because it's just like, you know, what I never like about like short stories or short films is like the minute you get into it, it's over, right? So it's this constant bait pullback, you know, kind of thing. And so it's kind of frustrating as a form of fiction.

Um, but there's your point, like there's something magical about that. We talked about this, but I, I really feel like we're on the verge here. Like, we're in this weird moment where, like, the LLMs, like the generative, you know, generative AI, like, it just, it just literally started working and it already works incredibly well.

So it's like this step function thing from doesn't work at all to works incredibly well, and it works incredibly well for helping on writing, and it works incredibly well for generating art. And we're sitting here in this moment where, like, in theory, like within

generating art. And we're sitting here in this moment where, like, in theory, like within a year or two, there is going to be a generative AI tool where you feed it an essay and it will give you the short film. Right. But that doesn't quite exist yet, but we're almost on the verge of that. And then, by the way, if you were going to do that today,

you could hand do that. You could use, you know, the journey or stable diffuser or whatever.

And you could do what you're talking about, like very quickly. And I could probably literally do it myself, right. With, by just feeding him the text. And so

like, we're at this, but like, you know, as you know, like most professional writers aren't doing this most professional artists, you know, like we're all sitting here knowing that this latent ability is there and we're not actually doing it yet. And so, and I, it's hard for me to. Judges, but like, it may be that five years from now, you know, we'll be sitting here and it'd be like, Oh my God, this has all

changed because all of a sudden both verbal artists and, you know, uh, visual artists are, are able to express themselves so much more rapidly. Yeah. It's so much more vividly.

How do you think about curating your information environment on Twitter? Yeah. So constant battle, constant struggle.

on Twitter? Yeah. So constant battle, constant struggle.

Yeah. You follow a lot of people. I follow a lot of people. So, so my. So you must use lists. Yes. I do. I do use lists. Um, and I learned the hard, the list, the against

lists. Yes. I do. I do use lists. Um, and I learned the hard, the list, the against another thing. The list used to be public. They're not public anymore. So if people were

another thing. The list used to be public. They're not public anymore. So if people were writing hit pieces on my lists, um, so I, I sidestepped that.

But um, Elon thinks I'm a wuss by the way, but I'm still going to keep those private.

Um, it's like, why do you care? Um, I'm like, cause there are people working for me. He's

like, I got people working for me. And I'm like, I know. Um, so, um, uh, so it goes back to the barbell idea. So basically my primary intake information is it's books and twitter basically. Right. And so I'm looking for something very

basically. Right. And so I'm looking for something very specific for twitter. I'm looking for like the direct feed of what's happening right now. And I'm looking for that from like basically the smartest and most insightful people I

now. And I'm looking for that from like basically the smartest and most insightful people I can find. Um, and so, um, and so, so basically the way that I do it is for the, for the general

can find. Um, and so, um, and so, so basically the way that I do it is for the, for the general follows my, my rule is I follow on the basis of single tweet.

Um, and then I block on the basis of a single tweet. Um, and, and so it basically, and, and it's actually, this is actually the power of writing. I actually think you can, there are a fair number of people now who I, you know, follow on Twitter where I realize that they are geniuses, um, based on a single tweet. It's just like they made some point and I

was just like, wow, like there's something special going on there. Right. And unlike,

and it will be like within 140, like there's, you can convey so much in 140 characters where you're just like, okay, this person is really special. So

it is unbelievable. It takes two to three sentences to realize that someone's really switched on and high IQ and has a variant perception on how the world works.

Yes. Like three sentences. Yes. And that is, as you know, there's very few characters, you know, that's very few. There, there are only, there are only so many different combinations of words that you can put into three sentences and yet you can still have people who jump out. Right. Who it really is. And so, and Twitter is very good at surfacing those people. So I mean, I say Twitter is the most wonderful

those people. So I mean, I say Twitter is the most wonderful and horrible thing in the world, right? Like, and, and, you know, everybody always talks about how horrible it is, but it's equally wonderful precisely for this reason. Right.

And so I'll unfollow on a tweet. I'll block on a tweet and I blocked extremely liberally.

And that, and so the overall follow list is just try to get like a gestalt of just like, you know, the world kind of coming at me. Um, and then I have, I have a, a small set of lists that are more curated and then by the way, look, I, you know, the other thing I do is I, you know, they change, I change, I change my mind.

You know, there are certain, you know, there are certain people who get me like really agitated, you know, it's like, and they're fun to follow for a little while and then it's like, okay, they're, they're doing something to me. You gotta go.

Last question. Tell me about p Marco. Why is that your screen name?

When I was, when I was in college, um, and I, I, at, at the, at the super computing center at Illinois that I worked at, no, nobody had any idea who I was. Um, you know, I was just like a college kid. Um, and so, but my, my, the boss, my boss's boss at the time, uh, was sort of famous, uh, that he had, he had two email addresses.

He had his regular one, and then he had one that started with P, which was private. Which

is the one he actually read and it was, it was just kind of like, okay, he's like, it was a little bit of like, okay, he's like a big, important guy. So he needs like the two email addresses, but it was also a little bit like he wants everybody to know that he's a big, important guy email addresses. And so in context, it was very funny for me

to say P market, cause it implied that I was a big and important guy and I needed to have the two email addresses and now everybody knows what it is. And so that doesn't completely eliminated the utility of the whole idea of a private email address. Huh? It backfired.

Well in there, that was good fun.

Thanks Matt. Good. Awesome. Thank you, David.