Meet the AI start-up distrupting the trade compliance industry

Greetings everyone. Welcome back. It's

Vinho. Today I've got a special guest, Chen. How are you doing?

Chen. How are you doing?

>> Good. Hey, thanks for having me.

>> All right. So, today we're going to talk about trade compliance, disrupting the industry with AI and Chen's new company called Ginger Control. All right. So,

Chen, quick introduction of who you are and what you do.

>> Yeah, absolutely. Um, my name is Chen.

I'm one of the co-founders of Ginger Control and um Sean's unfortunately not here. It's quite busy at the moment. But

here. It's quite busy at the moment. But

yeah, we created this company Ginger Control to help with essentially trade compliance utilizing AI in the right way to make everyone's lives easier because you know the terrible utility last year.

I'm I'm sure you guys are keeping up with everything. It's just it's a mess.

with everything. It's just it's a mess.

So yeah, happy to be here. Thanks for

having me then.

>> All right, cool. So, let's uh uh learn a little bit about you, like where you grew up, your formative years and things like that.

>> Yeah. Yeah. So, um my parents are originally from China, but I was born in New Zealand. Um and yeah, I grew up

New Zealand. Um and yeah, I grew up there up until maybe like 3 years ago.

Um so, you know, that's actually where I met Sean as well. Sean, I think he went to New Zealand and he was around 11 years old. But um we had went to the

years old. But um we had went to the same middle school, had the same group of friends. Um and up until high school,

of friends. Um and up until high school, we actually went to different uh high schools and but we still kept close because we we really like playing um League of Legends. Not sure if you've

played yourself, but still really close.

And you know, um yeah, that's kind of how we we met. Up until university, my my auntie, she had a customs brokerage in New Zealand. And even though I wasn't

directly in the business, you know, I was helping out here and there. So that

that's how I kind of got to know about trade compliance or just international trade in general. So it was a lot of fun, a lot of reading, a lot of understanding how running a business

works. And uh I believe Sean um he went

works. And uh I believe Sean um he went to the UK to study. Um and

essentially up until 2023, I started my own business and he was he had his own AI lab. he was doing a lot of research

AI lab. he was doing a lot of research around AI and then we linked up and we were just talking about how everything's going and we both were quite uh passionate about geo geopolitics and we

discussed the whole geopolit political situation you know as Trump came to place and we were both quite curious about how you know tariff and trade war um how a lot of people struggle to keep

up you know how how you know the current administration is using it as like sort of a a strategic weapon in a way um but yeah we still spoke a lot of importers, custom brokers, trade compliance people

who all seem to be kind of drowning in a sense. Um, but yeah, initially we were

sense. Um, but yeah, initially we were quite curious but the more we do dove deeper, the more we realized that, you know, I think there's a lot of

underutilization of technology and with Sean's expertise in AI and my expertise about how to start a business, how to distribute, we kind of came together like okay, we can actually start something here and genuinely help people

in this field. So unfortunately my auntie's custom brokerage didn't go well. Um co hit her like a truck. Uh but

well. Um co hit her like a truck. Uh but

you know hopefully this in this way in a sense I'm kind of paying homage. Um but

yeah.

>> All right. So you guys are now based in uh Texas and tell me a little bit about um your progress uh after you guys got

there.

>> Yeah. So originally I moved to Australia, Melbourne. Um that's where I

Australia, Melbourne. Um that's where I met my partner but we originally started in Australia and you know the more we understood of the actual situation the

more we understood that okay this it's actually hurting more people in the states. So um after about a month of

states. So um after about a month of research we just like okay you know what the only way we're actually going to know whether or not we can help these people is if we directly go and talk to the people um in the ground. So

essentially we took a boots on the ground approach. So I flew into I

ground approach. So I flew into I believe it was El Paso or not El Paso um South Patre Island because it was the first there was a custom brokerage event and you know I went there met a lot of

great people and just learn more about what's actually happening um with the custom brokers there and yeah like we were right you know people were

struggling to keep up and just more context being a customs broker it's all it's quite hard to get his license as well as you know So, you know, it's already quite a gatekeep and therefore these people

don't struggle with the current situation. We're just like, okay,

situation. We're just like, okay, something actually needs to be done here and, you know, hopefully we can actually do something. So, we put our brains

do something. So, we put our brains together. We got a few a couple other

together. We got a few a couple other people as well. Um, Tiffany, she's our product designer and a couple engineers.

Essentially, we're creating a solution where we can properly use AI technology.

When I say AI, it's more more so of data engineering as well. So, how can we use data and AI together in a way that creates a compliance first AI augmented solution?

>> So, if you if you keep up with a lot of startups as well, a lot of there's a there's a um coined term called AI rappers, which basically means a lot of

startups are putting a shell on top of for instance like ChachiBT or like I don't know Gemini or whatever. It's not

actually an AI engineered a newly AI engineered product. So a lot of these

engineered product. So a lot of these startups are using essentially these LLMs out of the box LLM and it's giving the wrong answers like they're not compliant. Essentially some person could

compliant. Essentially some person could ask you know what is the HTS code of X product on HGBT and could give like the completely wrong answer. And this is actually quite it's quite scary because

if they use these answers from the um general LLMs, the duties that they pay could be exponentially high or like penalties. So the the world lacks right

penalties. So the the world lacks right now like essentially a compliance first AI. So that's kind of the mission we're

AI. So that's kind of the mission we're going on here. And you know after we do that we also see you know with the whole uh tariff situation is there a way we

can assist people by for instance saving them a bit on their duties with these AI solutions and yeah that's kind of the general gist of everything.

>> Okay. So your company is called Ginger Control and your who's your target um customer ideal customer is there?

customs brokerage, a customs broker, importers, small businesses, companies, all the above.

>> Yeah. Um, it's a great question. So,

we're still quite early. Initially, we

wanted to target importers, right? But

we realized that ultimately, like for instance, the first tool we made, which is a tariff simulator, um, custom brokers, logistics people, importers, exporters, they could all use it. like

it is a way for people to figure out the duties on X code uh XHTS code and then compare it to country by country. And

then the second tool we actually released a couple weeks ago, the classification tool that can also be used by like not just importers but also customs uh brokers as well. So if you

were to ask me exactly who we targeting right now with said said products, it could be like anyone that needs to for instance u needs compliance. But I think

in the long term um yeah it'll be probably it'll probably always be like a mixed to be honest like and honestly I can't tell you what our company will look like 5 months from now because

there's so many changing things but um as of right now we're essentially helping everyone that needs FA compliance. So yeah.

compliance. So yeah.

>> Okay. So the way I understand it, you use AI to do data analysis, uh provide information and to help

importers kind of uh save on um the tariffs um that type of thing. So that's

could be meaningful savings for any importer or business or companies that are importing product from overseas. Is

that correct?

>> Yeah, that's correct. Yeah.

>> Okay. Very nice. Now um uh you've got uh I think a few people working there yourself um Sean and Tiffany as you'd

mentioned and it is a startup and then how do you or how have you been able to acquire customers or get the word out and you know that type thing. Did you go to ICPA? Did you have a booth? Did you

to ICPA? Did you have a booth? Did you

talk to people? You know how are you getting the word up out about ginger control?

>> Great question. Yeah. So I think that before we get into it, I think like the important thing is first of all is there a problem to solve and secondly

are the are the people willing to try a new solution and I think um that comes before you actually try to distribute anything and upon going to these events

like ICPA or and like these um custom brokers uh communities like it it it we verified that yes there is a problem and then so once Once we met all these great

people and talked to them and understood the problem, we asked them, hey look, you know, is there anyone actually providing a valid solution? And at the time there wasn't. And then you know

after asking hey look if we create XY Z and it you could help you with X with said problem are you willing to try it?

They're like yeah for sure. So um after that was verified that was when we actually started okay how are we actually going to move this business forward. So in terms of distribution,

forward. So in terms of distribution, there's a few strategies, you know, but I think really the first the most important part is building genuine genu genuinely great uh connections and and

rel relationships like um just meeting people one-on-one face to face for a coffee, learning about their problems, you know, their business, their life, seeing what exactly you can help with. I

think it sounds quite simple, but I think it's really effective, especially in this day and age of um digitization.

like the world lacks a lot of real uh in-person connection. So I think that's

in-person connection. So I think that's something that I really value as well and I think a lot of our customers values really too. So yeah, like apart

from that, you know, just also creating insightful blogs about um whatever the problem is that week. Like for instance, I made a a blog about the uh

semiconductors uh section 232 article on my LinkedIn. You can check that out. But

my LinkedIn. You can check that out. But

uh yeah, I think all it just comes down to is building great relationships and providing as much value as possible.

>> That's really it. But then when it comes down to specific strategies like you know using social media um using written content using videos um that yeah essentially utilizing all sorts of

channels as much as possible but >> sure >> hopefully that answers the question.

Yeah >> sure. All right so we mentioned a couple

>> sure. All right so we mentioned a couple times ICPA it's an annual conference I believe it stands for international compliance professional association.

>> Yes.

>> And you mentioned it was in um Texas most recently. uh tell us a little bit

most recently. uh tell us a little bit about that conference. Um how many people uh what are some of the subjects, the talk, you know, talking points, who's it good for, who's targeted, that

type of thing.

>> Mhm. Mhm. Yes. So, it was in um Dallas, excuse me. Um Dallas, I I believe it was

excuse me. Um Dallas, I I believe it was October last year. Yeah. Um my first kind of big trade compliance event, I say there was around maybe it was quite

big too. I think around two to 300

big too. I think around two to 300 people, a lot of new faces, a really warm and welcoming community. Um, yeah,

and I think it was just for my culture shock as well because I'm from originally lived in New Zealand and Australia and people there aren't as necessarily

um kind of outspoken there compared to um, you know, Texans. Yeah. So, first

event, great people, great food, and in terms of the topics, yeah, like just what pretty much what I said earlier, a lot of people struggling to keep up with the not only the regulatory updates, but

also the specific um citations in terms of like, you know, how do we actually uh understand the section 232s, how can we

actually um do proper valuation of said materials? And I think it's because CBP

materials? And I think it's because CBP doesn't give these specific uh objective kind of answers which is why people have these kind of struggles in the first place. But you know

place. But you know uh this whole this whole field already has so much complexity as well. And if

you think of the structure of how information is passed as well like someone from the top you know uh decides for instance executive order is given and then it goes to the port a port director and then you know it's not just

one port director it's a port director for every port in the US. So you know for instance you might have a classification code that's valid for this product in a port on the east coast

but they might be completely different on the west coast. So there's just a lot of different um variables and it's hard to have a clear kind of approach to every situation when it comes to trade

compliance. So

compliance. So I think to that that would be like the to put it the easy way. But yeah, I think in a way trade compliance is

really similar to legal and law as well because you're reading a lot of these different official documents and deciphering what this actually means.

And I think that's one of the main things newcomers also struggle with too.

Like I know there's not as many younger generations coming to the field not only because of you know how complex uh the field is but you know no one really wakes up and then suddenly decides hey

look I want to I want to be a customs broker. I want to be a trade compliance

broker. I want to be a trade compliance uh professional you know. So

personally I think there's a lot of complexity and layers that not that's not really welcoming to a lot of new people and um that's one point. Second

point, like the system, the the inherent system of how everything works in fra compliance is just so unorganized and it's just from the HTSUS database. Like

the government could easily make a searchable kind of option where essentially people don't need to um type word for word. You know, they could have for instance aliases cuz you know, if

you know, if you've used the HSUS database, if you search up the word pig, it doesn't really come up with anything.

It's like they use the word swine a lot and there's just so many things to be improved which is a shame because I know a lot of people are struggling especially last year like a lot of mom and pop shops closed up because of the

insane amount of duties. Um but um yeah sorry for going on a little little rant there but hopefully that answers the question.

>> Yeah. Uh getting back to the conference and industry in general, what I heard too in the past is like you said there, um mostly older white people in the

industry, customs brokers, uh people that run logistics companies, and it's not very very diverse. You know, there's hardly any Asian-Americans or African-Americans or people of color.

That's what I've heard. I've never been to the conference myself. Is that kind of what your take is, what you saw?

>> Um yeah. Oh, I don't really like I

yeah. Oh, I don't really like I personally don't really pay attention to like the e ethnicities. Yeah, ethnicity um

ethnicities. Yeah, ethnicity um distribution, but like I think from the ICPA example, there were a few colored people like I met a few great customs

brokers that were also of Chinese descent. Um and I think because this

descent. Um and I think because this profession is also quite it's quite an old profession and you know a lot of immigrants that do come from these countries like China, Korea or Japan or

you know Southeast Asia. Uh I think logistics perhaps isn't something that a lot of them go into which explains the said um current state but you know just

a personal thing I don't really uh notice that much of a difference in terms of the output from the people as well. So yeah, it could be true. I just

well. So yeah, it could be true. I just

haven't really paid attention to it. But

uh yeah, I think he might be right.

There may be more, for instance, um Europeans or like white people compared to color people in this field, but yeah, nevertheless, everyone's really great, too. There's not really much of a

too. There's not really much of a difference between each kind of people.

>> Mhm. And then uh I noticed recently you were on the Simply Trade podcast. Tell

us a little bit how that came about. I'm

interested in how uh you were able to meet Anna and get on the show.

Yeah. Yeah. So, um I met her at ICPA actually and then she was interviewing one of my good friends, Jake. Um and you know, we just hit it off. We had a great conversation. You know, she knew I was

conversation. You know, she knew I was new. But essentially, when you go to

new. But essentially, when you go to these events, they can tell you're a first- timer based on the badge you were given. And then it was just like, I got

given. And then it was just like, I got this badge and it was a bright pink badge. So, everyone knew that, oh, this

badge. So, everyone knew that, oh, this guy's a new person. So, hence um why they were probably so nice. But yeah,

had a great talk. You know, I love what she's doing with Simply Trade. Great

person and you know, she hit me up and then was interested in what we were doing, wants to help us out because we are still an early stage startup. And

yeah, you know, like I said, I think not even just customs brokers, just every kind of field. It it really genuine relationships really build companies. I

think like you know if I don't if I didn't go to these events and I didn't actually have a proper conversation with these people and learn about their problems and learn about their day then none of this would have happened. So

>> yeah.

>> Okay.

>> Okay. Good point. Now before we close out you want to share maybe um the next kind of things you have planned next six months or year or uh with the company or

what your your plans are.

>> Yeah absolutely. So, we like I said, we released our first version of the classification assistant like 2 years ago and we're about to release the 2.0 and right now the classification tool

only does single product classification and in the next one we'll be able to do bulk classifications too. So, you can upload you know multiple um rows of data and they'll be help you to classify to

make it really easy for you. Um that's

just in terms of the product but in terms in terms of direction like I think because we're still a very early stage I think the main thing for us is just just talking to more people to be honest

talking people from the field it's just this is such a big industry and you know every it feels like every day I'm learning something new I'm still learning so I'm still reading about about like the um the new kind of

changes that are happening with the tabs and everything it's just I can already feel the the the cognitive burden about being a customs um professional. So I

mean a compliance professional. So yeah

like I I think talk to more people refining our product understanding what exactly we're solving in terms of the big picture. Um but like I said we're

big picture. Um but like I said we're taking so much information that that could even change in a few months. So uh

but yeah you know all in all um creating an AI tool that assists with uh compliance and it can also reduce your duties that is essentially the motto here.

>> Excellent. All right so that is Chen one of the co-founders of Ginger Control an AI powered um solution for trade compliance in the 21st century. So thank

you Chen. I'll leave your contact information and company link below.

Thank you very much.

>> Thank you very much,