Meta印度裔高级经理，分享向上管理心得

The 101 is your best opportunity to manage up to your manager. They're like,

"Oh, well, my manager manages me."

[music] No. A lot of the time, the relationship is actually you managing Upwork, >> raising your opinion without data. Would

that stop a PM or a leader to voice their opinions? No. They're going to

their opinions? No. They're going to make a decision. So, what's stopping you?

>> A pull model is when you're pulling in your manager. The push model is when I

your manager. The push model is when I need to be pushing them for updates. But

if I still have to do that for a long period of time and I don't see that transition to a pole model, that for me is a concerning sign.

Hi Mushaba, welcome to the channel.

>> Hi Ying, nice to be here. For audience

who do not know, Mushaba is a senior manager of data science at Meta. You

have been at Meta for seven years, but you didn't start as a data scientist.

You were kind of SDE at college training, but you then joined Meta. Is

meta first job? Yes, meta was my first job out of school. I originally uh studied engineering. So, not like a

studied engineering. So, not like a formal math or stats background. I had

like one stats course in university. Uh

but yeah, I had done a couple internships in software engineering and then I joined as a data scientist as a new grad and slowly worked my way to a senior manager over the past seven years.

>> Nice. Maybe it doesn't take a different understanding of math or stats or maybe you do that with engineering.

I think you do it with engineering to some level but I think the bigger aspect of the role that probably engineering helps a lot with is like it's about problem solving which is a lot of what you kind of like cover throughout your

engineering time I think data science and specifically data science at meta is really about um identifying root causes of issues identifying problems being able to like put together clear

proposals and influence the rest of your team on pushing them in the right direction so a lot of that I think is agnostic of like whether you study stats whether you study science or math or engineering it's really about like your

ability to break down problems at its core >> love it because today like you can I can learn math or stats concepts very quickly with AI but the ability to solve

problems is what defines a good data scientist >> 100% >> and uh I want to ask you kind of three questions I'll just pick your favorite [clears throat] uh to start with and

we'll go with the flow the three questions are how you do one-on-one with a manager. And the second question is

a manager. And the second question is from a manager's perspective, what is a good IC? Like when you pick people for

good IC? Like when you pick people for promotion, what kind of person are you more likely to pick? And the third one is how can I get help? When do I get help? What kind of help can I get from

help? What kind of help can I get from managers as an IC? I think a lot of people they are not manager but they interact with manager just how to best

use a manager. uh I guess is the theme of my question and before that to put uh your question in context how many people have you managed before?

>> So I initially when I had started managing I was managing a smaller team of around four people um I think uh at the most uh for the past little while I've been like as an interim lead on

ecosystem so I was supporting a team of approximately like 14 to 15 people. Um

I'm going to be transitioning soon and switching teams. So my new team is starting out at 10 people with also like a layered manager underneath me. So I

think a bit of experience, exposure to like different levels or layers of management as well as like a larger and smaller team where it also requires a different role of me as a manager. Cool.

I think from the questions I honestly I like the order that you just said them in because I feel like they naturally flow into each other. So I'm going to kind of stick with that to start. Your

first question, how do you kind of use your one-on-one with your manager?

Personally, I think there's a one thing people learn eventually and they should learn over a period of time is that your one-on-one with your manager is something you should be driving. Um,

early on, especially when you join a company or you're onboarding, you are hoping that you're going to go to your oneonone and your manager is going to tell you everything you need to know.

But over enough time once you've onboarded, the 101 is really something you should be driving and you should have ownership on. You should be setting an agenda. you should be coming with

an agenda. you should be coming with clear like questions or topics or things you want to cover. But for me, and this maybe comes up in one of your later questions, like a strong IC is one who has a clear ownership of the 101 agenda

and what they're trying to get out of it. But I would break down like how to

it. But I would break down like how to use your oneonone into a couple clear categories and topics that even managers should take this advice because I use this for my one-on- ones with my

manager. Um, first is like I cover FYIs,

manager. Um, first is like I cover FYIs, which are more just like tactical updates. These are things that your

updates. These are things that your manager should know are going on, like things that are um on your road map or on your worksheet that you just want to flag are in progress so your manager is

aware of them. I like to honestly put them uh in the notes and I have like a usually a one-on-one doc with my manager so we can keep track of everything over the months and over the weeks as time

goes on. But I don't usually discuss

goes on. But I don't usually discuss them. They're like, "I just need you to

them. They're like, "I just need you to know this is happening, but I don't need to talk about it."

>> Because what I really want to use that time for the most is actual discussions.

Things I need your input on, things I need you to action on, or information I need from you.

>> I don't want to spend too much time just giving like updates like is it's a standup. I think once your if your

standup. I think once your if your one-on-one is more like a standup and you're just listing out things you're doing to your manager, then it's not really an effective use of either of your time.

>> It should be more about discussion.

You don't want it to feel like it's a standup where you were kind of just listing things to your manager that you're doing. You want it to feel a lot

you're doing. You want it to feel a lot more uh like a discussion and you're getting input and going back and forth.

>> Nice. I remember hearing this advice from many successful people who who have such successful careers. Uh one mistake common mistake people make in one is

making it a project update. But um I think I remember the advice of not making it a project update. But uh if I don't do that then people feel like oh should I just talk about my personal

life?

>> Yeah. So I think that that gets kind of into the other things I I had terms of categories to cover. So the first is like just FYI that you want to honestly list and have as async updates so your

manager's aware of >> the real use of your time is going to be in things you need to escalate. So I the 101 is your best opportunity to manage up to your manager as a concept. Some

people might not think about it too much. They're like, "Oh, well, my

much. They're like, "Oh, well, my manager manages me." No. A lot of the time, the relationship is actually you managing upwards. You informing your

managing upwards. You informing your manager things you need them to act on or things they need to know. So, the

first set of updates after the FY FYI for me is like risks to projects, things that you need to escalate to your manager. So, like you were saying,

manager. So, like you were saying, sometimes people treat the 101 too much like just a project update. But when I give this feedback, sometimes people over pivot and then they won't tell me

anything and they'll tell me when it's too late and the project's about to like fall at risk or be or fall behind. Your

skill set is really about letting me know when the project is at a point that I need to get involved. Is there

difficulty in a XFN collaboration? Is

there some risk with some of the analysis going on? Is there blockers with data or with like XFN? like getting

some context into like risks to the project or risks to the timeline is the type of thing we should be talking the most about not every single thing on the update. So that's a key area to kind of

update. So that's a key area to kind of like highlight in your 101. I think we might talk about this in the third question as well, but there might be a

stigma in asking for help or surfacing risk like some people feel like if I flag a risk to my project, it means I'm

not competent. I cannot handle things.

not competent. I cannot handle things.

So the mistake some people make in my experience and something I have tried to coach a lot of my team on is you can let me know what projects are at risk or what what analysis or what work is going

on that might be at risk but also clarify you don't need me to do anything about it. There's value in you just

about it. There's value in you just letting me know that information and letting your manager know that information because one thing IC's might or like reports might not be aware of is

your manager is likely in a lot of meetings and reviews and rooms where you aren't and they might be asked about the status of this project and it's important you and your manager are on

the same page about things. So if

there's risk to work it's not bad for you to tell your manager. There's no

stigma around like, oh, my manager is going to think poorly of me. No, it's

like you can tell me, hey, I have this under control, but I'm having difficulty with this collaboration or I'm actually having difficulty with data access, but I think I can unblock myself. But as

long as I know that level of risk is there, I can make sure when I discuss with the rest of my XFN or other leadership, I communicate a certain level of like hesitancy or like risk

with the scenario. So I don't put you in a position where I say, "Oh, actually no. I talked to Yuzen. The project's

no. I talked to Yuzen. The project's

perfectly fine. It'll be ready by Friday." Because then that puts you in a

Friday." Because then that puts you in a position where you're more likely to fail and puts a lot more pressure on you because it'll be like, "Well, your manager said everything was fine." For

me, this this is a lot more about making sure you and your manager are on the same page about things rather than me letting my manager know I need their help. Because a lot of the times, even

help. Because a lot of the times, even when I have IC's and they tell me what projects are at risk, they'll let me know. they don't need me to do anything

know. they don't need me to do anything about it or when they come to me for me the difference between like hey you are not doing a good job and I need to get involved is if you tell me something's

at risk and you haven't tried to unblock yourself like you were just coming and hoping I'm the first person who's going to solve it for you versus you come to me you let me know what you've already tried to unblock

>> and then I get involved to help because now it's at beyond your control and that's fine like you should be relying on your manager to help unblock you because that's part of my job responsibility

>> do our homework and when you cannot uh do it by yourself then ask uh help from your manager.

>> But that analogy reminds me of something. Uh I think what you are

something. Uh I think what you are saying is we should be objective, we should be honest and u of course like to get things done well you need to

actually understand not only the good part but also the bad part and the risky part. Uh but that comes from kind of a

part. Uh but that comes from kind of a trusting relationship. And I think a lot

trusting relationship. And I think a lot of people are in this mode of I don't trust my manager uh because maybe even from school they feel like oh my teacher

is someone who are going to punish me for not doing my homework or grade me or evaluate me. So they like to bring this

evaluate me. So they like to bring this manset to work and they feel like manager is here to evaluate my work to fire me if I do things wrong. I

understand where that stigma comes from.

And to be honest, I've had that same fear myself in the past. But I think the difference is your manager, as much as you might think they're there to evaluate you, they're also there to advocate for you.

>> Because when it comes to performance reviews, when it comes to these conversations that go on in rooms, your manager will be the one who's trying to represent you the best. So you might feel like, I can't trust my manager. I

don't know if I can trust them to tell me. But you also have to ask yourself

me. But you also have to ask yourself have you give them had an opportunity to see whether or not you can trust them.

Um I had this experience early on when I had switched teams and I joined ecosystems. Um I was a really new senior IC and in my head I was convinced oh I

need to be autonomous like because I'm senior there's an expectation that I can solve things on my own. I can solve problems on my own. So, I was working on a project and it got to a point where I was having a lot of difficulty with like

some ex-defend partners and I didn't escalate it. I didn't tell my manager. I

escalate it. I didn't tell my manager. I

assumed telling them meant like you were saying, "Oh, it's like the stigma that that means I'm not autonomous. Like I'm

not being independent enough that I need their help to like resolve these exend difficulties." And as a result, I had to

difficulties." And as a result, I had to like push back the deadline for the project. I had to talk to my manager be

project. I had to talk to my manager be like, "Hey, we're not going to hit this is not going to be ready for the leadership review. um we're having

leadership review. um we're having difficulty with the model and I'm having difficulty with my partners. the a

learning experience for me because after that my manager came to me and told me he's like hey you just have to let me know like let me know you could tell me when there's a problem you can ask me for help and he's like I'll tell you

common mistake most people make and I tell a lot of my reports this which is they think they're asking for too much help more often they're not asking for enough help and he gave me advice he's

like I will tell you this you can ask me for as many questions or as much help as you need and when I think you're at the point where you're asking for too much like you've crossed the line beyond what

my expectations is for your level. I'll

let you know. And the reality is I never got close to the line. And most people don't get close to that line because we convince ourselves on what is this idea of a senior very strong independent

person. But that's rarely what the

person. But that's rarely what the reality is. Uh the more senior I've

reality is. Uh the more senior I've gotten, the more managers I've met I've met, I've realized everyone asks for help. Everyone asks their managers or

help. Everyone asks their managers or other people for help. So we think we have to be very independent, strong people, but that usually just means we're not asking for as much help as we should be or as much help as everyone

else is.

>> Yeah. And uh my personal experience is as a manager, it actually feels very good to be able to help because we are so far away from doing the actual work.

>> I tell my team this all the time. I was

like every so often I wonder am I adding value in your life? Like what am I doing? How am I being helpful? and then

doing? How am I being helpful? and then

they'll come to me with a problem and then I'll be like, "Oh yeah, that's I can still help. I can still add value."

It is reassuring as a manager. At some

point, the idea is we like build our team up to a point where we like automate ourselves out of a job where like you guys are all very strong, independent, you don't need me. It is

very reassuring at times when they ask questions and you're like, "Okay, I can still help out."

>> Yeah. Yeah. And I think the other thing is uh managers their performance is not how many people I fire, it's how many people I help get promoted.

100% 100%. Performance management is a part of the job and it's something you have to do, but I would say it's the worst part of the job. And it's also not something that we like highlight the most as like something for your

promotion or your strength as a manager.

What really matters a lot is your ability to build your bench, build your team, kind of get them to be more senior, get them promoted, build their strengths such that you can scale

yourself more. So at any point in time,

yourself more. So at any point in time, it is in your manager's best interest to build you up in your career as well.

Like beyond just the fact that they probably care about you and care about your career growth, it's also in their best interest to build you up in your career.

>> Nice. I think this naturally transition us to the second question like what is a good uh strong IC that you are more likely to uh help get promoted. Good

question. Um I think a lot of this also kind of aligns in my head of like how I think what are the skills that I think get a person to like get promoted get to senior levels like what are the type of

stuff we care about. Um it varies at different levels but for me one of the biggest things is like someone who has a good balance between the idea that I'm

talking about of like autonomy but also managing up. Like I know when one of my

managing up. Like I know when one of my IC's I can trust when I know they'll come to me when I need to get involved.

If I can trust to leave them on their own and know that the project's not at risk because before it gets to that point they'll let me know. They'll pull

me in. They can manage me up correctly.

That's a level of like, okay, this is a strong IC that I can trust and I can kind of like leave to own a scope and own an area because I trust the level of communication they have with me that

I'll be aware of what's going on. I'll

be aware of problems and then I'll be aware when I need to get involved. Um, I

think IC's that I don't trust as much is the ones where I have to pull a lot more. So, I talk about this push and

more. So, I talk about this push and pull model a lot with some of my IC. So,

um, a pull model is when you're pulling in your manager. you let them know, hey, you need to get involved here. Hey, you

need to do something. And I trust that they'll pull me in when I need to get involved. If not, I kind of leave them

involved. If not, I kind of leave them on their own. We'll have our weekly check-ins. We'll have whatever

check-ins. We'll have whatever conversations, but then I can trust to leave them on their own. The push model is when I need to be pushing them for updates. I need to be checking in

updates. I need to be checking in because I don't know what's going on.

That for me is more something I do for my more junior IC's, and that's fine because they're still learning and growing or someone new who's onboarding.

But if I still have to do that for a long period of time and I don't see that transition to a pull model that for me is a concerning sign. Then I was like hey I need you to own this more. That's

owning the agenda owning communication and owning managing up to me such that I am can trust you to leave you on your own in places. Um

>> let me try to dive one layer deeper.

Sure.

>> So what triggers you to push to feel like you have to be in this push model?

Yeah. What are the signals? So for me a lot of the times it's like we are working towards a project, we're working towards a review and I h don't feel like I'm getting regular updates. I don't

feel like I'm aware of the current status of projects. I don't feel like I'm getting uh updates on milestones or situations that I should know about in terms of the progress of the work.

>> Um a strong IC is someone who can kind of like break that down and communicate that regularly to stakeholders. So not

just to their manager but to the rest of the team. So people don't feel like

the team. So people don't feel like they're in kind of the dark on what's going on. Um that for me is a very

going on. Um that for me is a very strong IC when they're able to manage all the stakeholder expectations, all the collaborator expectations well. And

in some scenarios, your manager also falls in that definition of a stakeholder or collaborator.

>> Sure.

>> So I start getting worried and I start getting into a very push model when I was like, "Hey, we're working. We're

getting close to deadlines. We're

getting close to this place and I don't feel like I know what's going on."

That's when I start pushing more and it's because I feel like they haven't pulled me in yet. I don't think you have to only pull in your manager when you need their help. You should be pulling them in just so you let them know things are fine and they don't need to worry.

Like if if I get if I get pulled in earlier and I get I see earlier versions of drafts and I see things are fine, then I can continue to take a step back and I don't need to get involved. Like I

don't need to do anything. I just need to be aware of the state of things.

I'm trying to kind of do an abstraction of this. First, most people make the

of this. First, most people make the mistake of undercommunicating.

>> Yeah, very very few people make the mistake of overcommunicating. We should

error on the side of try to do more communications. Um, that's number one.

communications. Um, that's number one.

And the second is like what are we actually doing? We are trying to make

actually doing? We are trying to make sure the project is successful. It's

about the project. It's not about individual performance. And when people

individual performance. And when people under communicate often they are worried about oh how other people would evaluate me if I say this if I do that. But uh if

you look take the perspective of let's make sure the project or the things get done well then you kind of have a natural like understanding of uh when

should I do the communication and what kind of what level of information should I disclose.

>> 100%. I think that's a really good like way of framing it where if you can separate yourself and your personal like concern of like hey I don't want to look bad I don't want to look like I can't be

independent I can't be autonomous from the situation and you focus more from like the project ownership standpoint of like hey am I making sure the project's going to succeed or is the project at

risk then you might be a bit more willing to like actually move it forward and have a better communication style.

There's one other thing I wanted to kind of highlight in terms of like strong IC and I think strong performance. The

stronger IC's that I have had I think have a very good self-awareness on what their strengths versus weaknesses are.

>> Um and I think this is probably also like correlated with just seniority where the more senior you get, the less hands-on I have to be when it comes to like career development or career

trajectory. That's not to say I don't

trajectory. That's not to say I don't have career conversations with my senior IC's, but I think my senior IC's have a lot more ownership or advocacy on what their career trajectory they want. Like

they're very well aware about what their strengths are. They know what their

strengths are. They know what their weaknesses are and they communicate that to me. So my role and my focus is really

to me. So my role and my focus is really about like how do I put them in the best position >> to capitalize on their strengths. I

think with the weaker and not necessarily more junior IC's, but with the weaker IC's, they don't have a good self-awareness of where where their strengths or weaknesses lie. They are

still like kind of trying to push through things that they don't realize are not strengths of theirs.

>> Is it obvious to you in most cases like the weakness like they don't know their own weakness, but is it obvious to you and other people? Yes, I think for the most part if you give with enough time

to actually properly calibrate and evaluate someone, I think it is fairly obvious to me. Um I think the gap and the issue becomes when it's not obvious to them because then there's a level of

like strength that I need and uh competency that you kind of need to get to in every skill >> by certain levels. But I think beyond that, like when you really think about

growth in more senior levels, the focus is really on like how do I get the most out of my strengths? How do I put myself in focus on positions where I can capitalize the most on my strengths?

Because after a point, it's not really about improving on weaknesses. It's more

about just like 10 times and kind of get reinvesting a lot more in your strengths.

>> Yeah. Like obviously like if everyone can do our job as well as you do or everyone becomes replaceable. So you

need to amplify your strength.

>> But uh I want to deep dive like why do you think it's the case? Like I I do like it's also my experience that uh someone's weakness is obvious to other

people and their manager but not obvious to them and it's very hard for a manager to actually point that out without you know hurting feelings.

the less you are obviously able to like identify obviously the harder it is as a manager's job for me to be the one to kind of break that to you. But I think a lot of it actually does have to do with self-reflection. One thing I try to do

self-reflection. One thing I try to do kind of going back to like the one-on-one question is I separate out weekly one-on- ones with career conversations. I think it's like really

conversations. I think it's like really hard to have a proper career conversation where we're so focused on tactical detail. And in a lot of my

tactical detail. And in a lot of my career conversations, I usually open up and talk first about before anything about performance evaluation, I ask you to reflect on how are things been going,

what do you think is going well? What do

you think is not going well? What are

your career trajectory goals? And how do you think you're progressing towards them? I think when people aren't asking

them? I think when people aren't asking themselves those questions or aren't thinking about those things critically, they're not fully aware on their strengths or weaknesses. And even after all of that, if they still aren't, it's

likely they're just miscalibrated. Like

they have a false sense of where the bar is for certain skills and strength. And

then it's my job as a manager to make that very clear. And sometimes that's totally fair. Sometimes that is on me as

totally fair. Sometimes that is on me as a manager. That's my failure point if

a manager. That's my failure point if expectations for you aren't very clear on what the bar is. And that's where I start putting in I have to put in more effort to make sure that's clear to you.

But in my experience, the stronger RC's are the ones who are very self-aware on where they are below the bar or what gaps do they have to like the next level or where their strengths lie such that

career conversations are way more driven by them. Similar to just one-on- ones

by them. Similar to just one-on- ones are more driven by them. They have a strong understanding of like these are strengths I have, these are weaknesses I have. I would love to improve on these

have. I would love to improve on these things, but I think I would really strive in roles that let me make the most of these skill sets. And then we focus on like projects and opportunities that kind of like match their skill set

and their interests.

>> I want to double click on this uh on your earn career and career t part because one mistake I made in my career at meta was I feel like I talk about

promotion half a year too late. Once I

started talking about promotion with my manager, then we have a plan and uh we have constant checking where is the gap

and how to f me more projects to fill the gap or to have more visibility. That

is a very important starting point talking about promotion with my manager.

But why did I do it half a year too late? I was afraid. I was afraid how my

late? I was afraid. I was afraid how my manager would think of me like oh maybe I do not deserve a promotion and then my manager is gonna be why is why is he asking for promotion when he is below

expectations like none of those were true my manager do not think that but uh people have this imag imaginations right >> I think this comes back to a point you were saying earlier about like it's

about building trust with your manager as a manager one thing I have to evaluate and figure out early on is like what are people's motivations like what motivates different IC's on my team there are people who are very clearly

motivated by promotion like they have every time they get a promotion they're like okay how do I get to the next level like what is the focus what are the gaps and then there's some people who have who honestly rarely talk about

promotions they just talk about like their life work life balance skills strengths stuff like that as a manager it's still my responsibility to make

sure I set up both of them on good paths to promotion like just because one asks me more about it doesn't mean as a manager I should not be uh putting an equal effort for the person who doesn't

ask about it. But the reality is like at the end of the day, you are your biggest advocate as an IC. So I do the same thing too. In an ideal scenario, my

thing too. In an ideal scenario, my manager is putting in the equal effort to think about my promotion, making sure I'm aware when I'm close or what my opportunities are. I still want to have

opportunities are. I still want to have that conversation and I still push for that conversation so I'm aware how far I am. And I usually start these

am. And I usually start these conversations from a place of like vulnerability and very much clarity.

Like I'll let my manager know like, hey, I don't think I'm that close to a promotion. For me, I think it's more

promotion. For me, I think it's more than a year away. But it's helpful for me to understand where my gaps are and what you think my gaps are. So even if it's over a year away, I can focus on

working on those things. So when we have our career conversations, you can let me know if those are being getting better, if I'm improving on them. I'm not asking you to promote me in a year. I'm asking

you to just let me know what are the things I need to work on and kind of let me know if you see that improvement or growth. And coming from that level of

growth. And coming from that level of transparency and building that trust, I think helps a lot. Um, and the reality is sometimes to be honest like you might think, hey, I think I'm more than a year away or I'm very far away from a

promotion. And that's not the case. Like

promotion. And that's not the case. Like

I've had that happen. I told one of my managers at a point in time, I think I'm a bit away from a promotion, so I'm not really sure. or I'm thinking about team

really sure. or I'm thinking about team switching or other options and stuff like that. And they were like, I

like that. And they were like, I actually don't think you're that far away. And that's just because I didn't

away. And that's just because I didn't really know where the bar was at that point in time. So I think being more transparent and being the owner and advocate for your own career um helps

ensure that there's like no lack of clarity like there's no miscommunication or you're not missing out on any clarity of expectations because in an ideal world a good manager should be

communicating all this with you regardless of whether you ask but you don't want to leave that up to your manager. It's perfectly fine for you to

manager. It's perfectly fine for you to push and ask for that clarity. Yeah, I

think clarity and nothing should be unexpected like the right expectations.

>> Yeah, there's like two failure scenarios in this. I think uh when you get to your

in this. I think uh when you get to your performance reviews, if you are surprised by your feedback or by your rating, it's either like obviously there's only two ways it fails, right?

either you didn't have a very good understanding of where where you are and where your expectations are or I think the bigger issue though is your manager has not done a good job of like

communicating those to you >> because even if you were unaware and you thought things were going great your manager should have already been giving you this feedback throughout the process. Your career performance review

process. Your career performance review should not be the first time you're getting any critical feedback that there's weaknesses or gaps. How do you kind of break the bad news to your

reports in a constructive way?

>> I think the most important thing is to just be straightforward and honest. Um,

it's hard obviously having like tough conversations, whether that's performance management, whether that's giving someone a lower rating or whether that's even like giving someone a good

rating but lower than they expected or they didn't get the promotion that they were hoping for. It's tough to be the person who breaks that news, but I think it's also a responsibility in the role.

I try to understand that we're all adults. I don't like beat around the

adults. I don't like beat around the bush. I I get very straight to the point

bush. I I get very straight to the point of like, hey, this is what happened. Um,

I am very clear on like what the gaps were that were discussed, where I think the gaps lied. And then before I get really far into just like tactical discussions, I ask how they're feeling.

Like this is disappointing, this is sad.

I realize that you were hoping for something else and we could talk about that like what are your feelings? What

are your disappointments? What do you think I could have been doing better throughout the half such that like this disappointment wasn't there? As a

manager sometimes you worry you're like hey did I build up the expectations too high? Did I let them think that their

high? Did I let them think that their promotion was going to happen 100% and I gave them a false sense of like confidence that it was 100% going to happen. Right? So it's also important at

happen. Right? So it's also important at that time as a manager to reflect on like hey what could I have done better in this process for you?

>> Do you mind if I play a difficult scenario?

>> Sure play a difficult scenario. You ask

my promotions my emotion is it's not fair. I I worked so hard right? I did

fair. I I worked so hard right? I did

overtime I committed the most lines of code and uh I did all those analysis and uh I ended up getting a bad rating. It's

not fair.

>> You think they're totally right. you did

put in a lot of time and you did write probably the most lines of code. I think

this is something we acknowledge and we did talk about in your performance rating but I think the thing that we need to really focus in on and think about is not the lines of code or the

hours of work but it's the impact of the work that's coming out. I think that's why especially going into next half something we should work on together is making sure your road map is set up in a

way that you don't have to spend so much extra hours and so much more time writing so many lines of code and you can actually hone in your efforts on the most impactful projects. I think the gap

in your uh promotion case wasn't the volume of work was actually the impact of work and I think there's right now you're taking on a lot of these like more execution operational things smaller things that is taking time away

from the more impactful work you could be doing. So uh it's a partnership and

be doing. So uh it's a partnership and I'm hoping going forward we can kind of work together to set you up on a road map that really focuses in on the type of projects that will set you up better

for a promotion. [laughter]

Yeah, it's it it's like it's obviously hard. It's a hard conversation to have

hard. It's a hard conversation to have and sometimes at the end of the day, regardless as a manager, whatever you could say, people will be disappointed.

And it depends on the company, it varies from the company you're at at place to pace. But I think something is also

pace. But I think something is also important to understand is like it's not really just up to your manager whether or not you get promoted. Like your

manager's role is to like advocate and push for you in performance conversations, but depending on how your company does it, it's not always like their individual yes or no say on whether or not it happens. I think a

good manager will communicate that to you. We'll let you know what the

you. We'll let you know what the feedback was, what the gaps were, but it'll it takes time. It's not like you'll people will get over it right away.

>> Yeah. I think I don't know how many people have the realistic expectations but I feel like people are becoming more mature and having the realistic

expectations like things are not entirely in our control industry company stock market economy like everything contributes to a certain path. One last

question about this what is a good I see part maybe asking for the audience some audience may wonder especially a data scientist you talk about communication you talk talk about project management

you talk about uh autonomy and no surprises manage up but you didn't talk about technical complexity and a lot of people when they think about what is a

high level data scientist imaginary they think about someone who are expert in certain domain can do complex things are technical complex. Yeah. Can you

technical complex. Yeah. Can you

elaborate?

>> It's a common question. It's a very fair point. And the way I think about

point. And the way I think about technical expertise and the way I I've seen it come up a lot is like there is a baseline level of competency when it comes to technical skills or technical

complexity or ability that is required for success in a lot of places. And the

reality is I think a lot of people who get hired at these companies and work with us in places that we work at um have that level of technical competency.

What ends up being majority times the blocker for growth and the blocker for more impact at work is not the technical expertise. It is some of that softer

expertise. It is some of that softer skill. It is the product intuition. It

skill. It is the product intuition. It

is the communication ability. It is the collaboration skills. Um I have seen way

collaboration skills. Um I have seen way more cases where that is what blocks someone from having more impact. That is

what blocks someone from being able to like ha work at a larger scale or on a larger scope that ends up blocking their promotion case than the technical complexity barrier. Um and even if it is

complexity barrier. Um and even if it is the technical complexity barrier, it's not their lack of ability, it's the lack of like scope within the area they're working for that complexity to exist.

And it usually is a sign that you need to be working on a different team or on a different project that has the right amount of complexity.

>> Y I have worked with some really smart data scientists um at Meta. I'm sure you have as well and I've worked with some really strong technical people. But even

amongst the most technical people I have met, the most successful ones are the ones who are also able to like connect and bridge that with like the right communication skills, the right prioritization skills and the right

collaboration skills to actually translate that into impact. I have met really strong technical people who get really deep into areas. But if they can't convince other people why that's

important or why that matters or collaborate with other people, it doesn't really change a lot of things.

it just kind of stays with them.

>> Yeah. As data scientists, uh we influence other people. We don't write production code. Uh like company hire us

production code. Uh like company hire us to produce impact. And if we solve a hard problem that has no impact, we actually wasted a lot of resource. Uh

not >> Yeah, we say this. I met I'm sure we say other places say it too like our currency is influence and it's your ability to convince people to make the right decisions.

>> How to increase that uh influence?

It's a good question. There's a lot of stuff that kind of builds into it honestly over time. I think it's similar to like building your brand, right? Like

as like influencer, as someone who's trying to build their brand on LinkedIn and YouTube and other places. It's the

same thing you do internally as a company. You have to build trust with

company. You have to build trust with other people. They have to be confident

other people. They have to be confident in your technical abilities, your competency, but then also have confidence in your intuition. Like

they'll want your opinion on additional things. They'll reach out to you for

things. They'll reach out to you for your input on other things.

When you have a history of successful uh influence and a history of like being able to like identify opportunities or make the right recommendations, then there's a feedback loop where people will come to you more. Um, usually when

I'm new and I start off, I usually try to find low hanging fruit, quick wins, kind of build relationships and connections because I feel like that's like the foundation of then being able to influence anyone.

>> That's such a important point that I don't think is discussed enough. the

right intuition because I actually asked in the early days like marketplaces or data scientists have a lot of influence like people listen to data and I asked

the early director Ashish and Nav how did the marketplace have such a strong data culture and the answer was early days Ashish just insisted on his opinion

and he was right a lot of the time so at the beginning people may not listen to him and over time he built the reputation influence >> one thing and this is maybe unique to

like larger tech companies that you realize over time is even if you don't provide good data or right data, people are going to make decisions like people are going to make decisions and move

forward and like the company's going to there's going to be motion. So, it is important and imperative that you kind of just help direct them in making the right decision and moving in the right direction because if you don't, they're going to move regardless.

>> Y >> um I used to get this feedback a lot. I

have never been really good at like sharing my opinion. Um, every time like I enter a new room or I enter a group like I usually tell myself everyone here is more senior than me. Everyone here

has more context than me. Everyone here

has more life experience than me. So

like why would my input and opinion matter and my managers and skip have always pushed me a lot to like voice your opinion or like you clearly have an opinion but you should share it more.

I'm getting comfortable with the point.

everyone is just like acting and sharing their opinion based off of the information they have. As data

scientists, we tend to actually have maybe a lot more information than the average XFN or collaborator we work with.

>> Yes.

>> And if you think about it from this point of view, data is like the voice of the user to some level. So to some degree it is your

some level. So to some degree it is your responsibility on behalf of the users of your product to like bring voice to their concerns and bring voice to their data on like what do they like doing,

what do they not like doing, what do they want more of. So if you don't do it and if you don't provide that voice to the users, then we're going to likely make decisions anyways that might just be bad for the product and the user experience.

>> Yeah. Uh this reminds me one of my most valuable lessons at Facebook was a senior data scientist circle uh led by

Roberto uh he's now a VP at instagram and he asked this exactly scenario like how many of people who went to the circle are comfortable raising an

opinion without causal evidence and I think half of the room raise our hands and then he asked how many of you are comfortable raising your opinion without

data And I think only he raised his hands and he said would that stop a PM or a leader to uh voice their opinions?

No, they're going to make a decision. So

what what's stopping you? Yeah, it you get to a point and honestly as a when you in a manager a lot of the times if you're like a lead in an area that is what you're trying to do like you're just if it's a new area and there is no

data you are basing it off of whatever intuition you have whatever historical data and everything you understand and you're just making um a recommendation.

I think the important thing is to make sure you have like safeguards in place so we don't just 100% invest based off of like faulty information, but every other function is probably going to make recommendations and decisions without

data anyways. So there's nothing

data anyways. So there's nothing stopping you from doing it, but also trusting that that is still not zero data. You have a history of seeing a lot

data. You have a history of seeing a lot of data points that you've kind of internalized that is influencing your intuition.

>> Yeah. Yeah. A decision is a qualitative.

It's never like A is bigger than B. So

let's go with A.

>> Yeah. Even with Cal data is a strong evidence, but it's part of the evidence, not the entire evidence.

>> If we could wait every single time for causal data to make any decisions, we did. We would not be moving fast at all.

did. We would not be moving fast at all.

>> Um I think judgment is very important and intuition is very important and that's probably like the core of product analytics at most these tech companies.

>> Nice. I would summarize this as a strong is should have a good uh mental model right they should have the right intuition and they should be able to be right aloud even without data. So that's

of the data scientist internalized within person. Great. Uh let's go to the

within person. Great. Uh let's go to the third question. So how to ask help from

third question. So how to ask help from the manager when to ask help and what can you ask help on? for me and I think we talked about this when we talked about like what's a strong IC you should

ask your manager for help once you have tried to unblock yourself first right uh once you've made an effort to unblock yourself and you are still blocked then

you kind of go to your manager with what is going on um and your manager can help in a lot of ways um whether this is like an issue with collaboration model like

there's people you're working with and there's a difficulty and then you need an escalation at your manager's level and then their manager's level like you kind of need to get your manager involved when there is any level of like

seniority involved. It's important to

seniority involved. It's important to kind of like work with your manager because at some point it is beyond your scope. Like I would not expect some of

scope. Like I would not expect some of my IC's to go argue with a director or go argue with a VP. Um, and they shouldn't have to like that should fall to my level and that should fall to me

to like protect them from that level of like push back because there's clearly power dynamics at play that make a conversation and push back hard to have.

Um, but it is important for me to know what what have they already tried, what have they already communicated, what has already been attempted. I think there's like a lot of areas where your manager

can help with just the additional context that they have. Um, and this comes through a lot in communication and kind of like going back to the idea of a good oneonone. Like part of what you do

good oneonone. Like part of what you do and what your manager helps with is just context. Like your manager's in more

context. Like your manager's in more rooms and meetings than you to get context on leadership or stakeholders on the top of mind problems for the company

that you might not have context in. So

your manager can help connect your work and your analysis to the larger strategy. Um, and you should lean in on

strategy. Um, and you should lean in on that context your manager has. You not

having that context is not a failure point of yours. There's rooms your manager's in that you aren't. So there's

no expectation that you should have that, but you should be able to like connect with your manager to get that information. So, a lot of what your

information. So, a lot of what your manager can help with beyond like unblocking you with problems is also connecting you to the right information and context to like make your work more

impactful. So, for me, that's something

impactful. So, for me, that's something you should your manager should be trying to tell you on your own, but that's also something you should be pushing your manager for. If you are working on a

manager for. If you are working on a project and you're not fully sure why we're doing this or you have questions behind what the actual question is, the motivation is, that's something you should be pushing your manager on.

That's something your manager should be helping you on and providing you with.

>> Nice. Yeah. Like you mentioned, the influence is the capital, right? And to

get influence to get people listen to you, you have to talk about what they're interested in. You are talking about a

interested in. You are talking about a different dimension. Even if you are

different dimension. Even if you are saying all the right things, doesn't matter to them.

>> Yeah. Like I've uh I tell my team this sometimes because I think on ecosystems a lot of our work is just about like influence at the overall app level. Um

impact is a combination of you doing really good analysis and people really caring about that problem.

>> At times it's hard to have impact. You

could do really amazing analysis, but if the stakeholders and audience aren't thinking about that problem right now, it's a very hard hill to get over to convince people that the problem matters

and then your recommendation and solution matters. So, at times it's

solution matters. So, at times it's really about like connecting the right skill set with the right problems people care about. And that's where like your

care about. And that's where like your manager helps a lot. Your manager should be finding you the right scope, the right opportunities, the right problems to connect you with and on your own you

might not have access to all that information. So a lot of what I do for

information. So a lot of what I do for my team especially for my most senior IC's is just really helping like brainstorm and connect build their road

map with top priorities top of mind concerns >> and then when they're actually like writing and communicating their work making sure they're able to connect their findings with other things going

on around the company and app that are of uh strategic priority just so it has more opportunity to land impact.

How often do you review their uh kind of writing communication and provide feedback?

>> It varies on the IC and on the seniority. Um I think for more junior

seniority. Um I think for more junior IC's I would probably have a couple iterations like I'll review a more rough draft where I provide like I usually try

to for my team especially now as it's larger I like review the very initial outline and plan just so I make sure when they start they're going in the right direction and then I'll review at

the end when it's like pulled together and like clean and I help iterate them on framing. So depending on who the

on framing. So depending on who the audience is, like if this is going out to just more their people at their level and their XFN, then I might review it once. If it's going to fairly senior

once. If it's going to fairly senior audiences, then it's not just me, it's usually like even my layers of skips who are all reviewing it and there's like a couple layers of iteration where we're

like working together on the framing and cleaning up the communication and trying to connect it to a narrative that matters to leadership. But I would say

um two to three times Nice. Yeah. So,

ask a manager escalation when there's power dynamic involved. Try to unblock yourself but when you couldn't and also ask a manager for information contacts

and connecting you with the right people, information contacts.

>> And all of these things are not just true of your direct manager. This is

like the scales when you think about your management chain, right? There are

certain things that even your manager can help unblock. you have to go to your skip like I like talk about the meta example right I work on Facebook app if

I have issues ever with like one of the other orgs or one of the other apps like at some point even my manager is not the one who can help unblock I have to go to my skip I have to go to a very senior VP

level and you kind of like rely on them so the same situation kind of scales like understand when is something escalated to a certain difficulty or collaboration difficulty that you need

to go even further up And then when is context that you need at a much senior level like I need context at times on what's going on in leadership reviews or leadership meetings and maybe even my

managers not in those. So then I reach out to my VP of like hey I need some context on this ask we got I just want to know what was where was it discussed?

What were you looking at when this came up? What additional things were you guys

up? What additional things were you guys talking about? I just need some

talking about? I just need some additional context.

>> Nice. Those are the good questions. Can

you give a few more this kind of questions? How to extract more

questions? How to extract more information from your manager? What

questions to ask?

>> I usually start off by just asking what was the context in which this question came up because as many data scientists probably know, they usually get asked a very random or specific point like hey

we just want data on this feature or hey we're looking for some data on these users and I'll be like okay can I get some more context? What was going on?

What were you looking at or discussing when this topic came up? Okay, I think the most important question to be asking is what decision are we going to make with this data?

>> What is like the purpose of this data?

What is the decision you're trying to make? Because what's often going to be

make? Because what's often going to be the case is there's likely better data you could provide >> to help with that decision beyond what they're asking. But because they don't

they're asking. But because they don't know the data, they're going to ask for something. But if you know the question,

something. But if you know the question, you can actually provide them better data or more data. So I always used tend to try to figure out what is the context in which these discussions were going

on. What were you looking at? Were you

on. What were you looking at? Were you

looking at some existing data? Were you

looking at some existing trends? Can I

see that? And then two, what is the decision you're trying to make? The

reason I think sometimes it also helps to ask what is a decision you're trying to make is if the answer is there's no decision, you can also push back like is this a priority? Is getting this data

gonna help in anything? Is this going to change our mind? Is this going to change a decision? If not, is this a higher

a decision? If not, is this a higher priority than everything else I'm working on? And that's often like for me

working on? And that's often like for me a sanity check on prioritization and pushing back because I think every data scientist has experienced getting asked a lot of data asks and everyone wants to

always have more data >> and a easy way to push back at times is asking what is this data going to help us do?

>> Does it matter? If data's not going to change any decision, then I does do we really need it?

>> Yeah, I think that's the key question between kind of a SQL monkey versus a a data scientist who can influence decisions.

>> And it also helps to understand like what level of precision are we trying to go for, right? Do you need like what is the level of precision you need in whatever decision you're trying to make?

>> Are you looking for like a ballpark estimate? Do you need to know like is

estimate? Do you need to know like is this like a 1% or a 10% or like a 70% opportunity or uh sizing or are you getting trying to get very specific

where you need like very clear confidence intervals like there's a high level of risk of being wrong because that lets me know how much time I should be investing and I think especially the more senior you get as an IC or even as

a manager that's like what you get better at being able to gauge of how much time should I be spending on this ask and asking the right questions to figure about how how much investment you should be putting in.

>> Thank you. I think that answers my third question very well. I think we got to both the message and action items and they can just take away and start using tomorrow. So any questions you think I

tomorrow. So any questions you think I should ask you?

>> Do you think they care about the IC to manager transition at all? Like what it was like, what was easy, what was hard >> or is that too personal? I think people

care about that but uh it has been asked and answered too many times like every time like people ask that question then it's hard to say something new for

>> totally fair um no I think because the focus has all been here about like how do you use your manager what is the how do you kind of like connect and talk to your manager I think we answered I think it's more than three questions because but we went really deep into all the

topics and the follow-up so I think we kind of covered a lot of it >> nice thank you how do you feel about uh the conversation.

>> Um it's for sure awkward the first time you do it. Like I feel I I I probably talk too much at times and I ramble of it. Um but it's nice. It's like

it. Um but it's nice. It's like

>> I It's interesting because I'm talking to you directly, but I can feel like I'm talking in front of people even though they're not here. Like you get the sense that you're trying to talk to a larger

>> broader audience. Yeah, that's I try to bring that perspective to the uh guest I have conversation with. I don't know

like the anchor that I try to use is if you sent this video to our director reports, is it going to help them be more successful? If that is yes, then

more successful? If that is yes, then sure, we got enough value out of this conversation already. Yeah. All the rest

conversation already. Yeah. All the rest is I don't know algorithm, many different things that are out of control.

>> Makes sense. I said the same stuff I tell all my direct reports anyways. So I

would happily send this to all my direct reports.

>> Yeah. And uh I don't think you talk too much or too little. I think it's the perfect amount. And uh it it definitely

perfect amount. And uh it it definitely do not feel awkward to me. Yeah. Natural

unless you should be on more podcasts. I

>> Well, I'll be on another one in two weeks with you. It'll be fun.

>> Nice. Cool.

>> All right.