Michael Heiser - Two Powers of the Godhead - May 4, 2013

all right as Brent said we want to talk about Divine plurality and specifically

how we want to try to move from just the little baby step idea that there is such a thing as Divine plurality in the Hebrew

scriptures onto the the linkage of the attributes and person and

titles of Yahweh the god of Israel to one other particular Elohim because when you do that when that becomes evident in the

text what you're going to see is that throughout the Hebrew scriptures there was a an invisible

Yahweh and then there was a visible Yahweh as well sometimes they're in the same scene together many times they're

separate but again uh you get both and there are again linkages where there's this tuness going on that is once you sort of know what to look for becomes

kind of transparent so I want to go through that it's going to be quick you can get the slides I'm going to send them to Brent and he'll make sure that you have access to all of them so we're

going to go through this a bit rapidly uh for the sake of time but don't worry about that because you will there's nothing copyright here you can all have the slides and that's not going to be an

issue so next slide is this a problem or a solution and again it's very natural especially if people have not heard of the ideas they're going to think well you know is this a problem for

monotheism what about Jesus what about the godhead again New Testament thinking if I affirm this stuff in the Old Testament you're telling me about what

how does that affect what I affirm about Jesus next slide I would say the answers again in short form is that Yahweh is an Elohim but no Elohim is Yahweh that sort of

takes care of the monotheism issue we need to affirm and note that Yahweh is ontologically unique there is

only one of him ontology is a nice fancy academic word for being okay what somebody

is you we all have our own ontology you know what that which makes us us if I can put it that way and Yahweh is unique

so we need to affirm that not only for sake of the shama an Old Testament thinking that among all the Elohim there's this one that is completely

unique but that's going to become an issue when this second figure this second Yahweh figure begins to emerge because that second figure is going to

turn out to be Yeshua Jesus and so ontologically they're going to be the same and they need to be the same they are the

same again Divine plurality next slide I view as a first baby step toward godhead thinking and we're we're going to start

thinking tuness now let's go to the next slide we all know this verse here o Israel the Lord Our God the Lord is one and there are those again when I

give this presentation and think well isn't this a violation of the shama uh it's not again I don't want to Rabbit Trail over that again but then if you go to the next Slide John

1:18 you have to ask yourself how could a Jew affirm the shama here oh Israel and then the wording and then

Embrace this no one has ever seen God the only God who is at the father's side hold on wait a minute a god at the father's side I thought the father was a

God how can there be a god at the father's side and and it's not not only that but it's the only God I mean how do we wrap our minds around that especially

if we're Jewish because again the shama is at the core of our thinking next slide so the question is how is it that a first century Jew who is so

committed to monotheism again the the elevation of Yahweh Above All Gods so committed that he or she would choose death rather than worship the

Roman Emperor or a Roman god or any God how could that person Embrace Jesus of Nazareth as God In the Flesh alongside the god of

Israel is there some sort of conflict here the answer is because Jews themselves had a belief in two powers in heaven prior to the New Testament period

what I mean by that is this trajectory this thought that there was a godhead is not new to

them what is new to them is the claim that this person standing in front of me who I know is from Nazareth I know his

mom and dad this person standing in front of me is claiming to be that part of that godhead

that second Yahweh figure that I know from my old testament that was the difficulty the idea of godhead was not

it's just the the notion that he's here and not only is he here because he was he was around the Old Testament too but he actually passed through his

mother's birth canal and was born a human being that was a big deal that was dramatic it was

different so the base idea they were familiar with that and I'm going to show you why next slide let's take a look at some Old Testament passages and I'm going to

begin here with the the passages that if you were to go back and I'm going to I'm going to show you a book in case you're interested in this subject you can go back through Jewish material

here uh if you were to look at the rabinal discussion of how godhead thinking how this two idea that

Christians were using how that became a heresy within the Jewish Community if you were to read that material your your perception of that would begin at certain passages I'm going to show you a

few of these Genesis 1924 next slide you look at this passage of course I have the Divine name in all

caps give you a chance to read it is there anything odd about it I'll give you give you a hint next Slide the Divine name occurs twice and

it's how can you have Yahweh raining down all this stuff from Yahweh way I mean that it I mean you you can you can

kind of deal with that but it just feels a little odd feels a little awkward and again some people kind of notice this and I wonder what's going on

with that it just sounds a little odd another one Amos 411 this is a little harder to spot give you a chance to read through

this I have wrought destruction among you did you catch it okay the speaker is first person and

the speaker is God so why is God referring to God in the third person you think that's funny this is not the only place that happens but again when when people are

reading the text closely they look at that and go what why is that that wording is really kind of odd you know

Yahweh referring to to God what what's going on with that Genesis 22 now this is the

AKA so it's very familiar again within the Jewish context if you look at this you know God tested Abraham and said to him take your son offer him as a

burnt offering but the angel of the Lord called to him from BL so on so forth did you catch the phrasing I'll give you another couple seconds here to read it

yeah go to the next slide and then you're gonna there's some animations here wait till the slide is filled up there we go so God tested

Abraham the angel of the Lord called to him he said I know that you fear God but then it ends you've not withheld your only son from me

Whose Line Is It Anyway I mean you know who's who's speaking to who and when and it it just has this odd sort of feel to it this

mixing of first and third person so they're noticing this now the book that I mentioned is this one it's

called two powers in heaven this is written by a Jew Alan seagel was a professor of Jewish and talmudic literature he just passed away two years

ago I believe um he wrote the book back in 1977 it's available in paperback it's

still in print and it is a rehearsal of how this idea of two

powers in heaven was a part of Judaism in Antiquity and B it became a heresy around the second century ad turn

so his book's just about how that happened and now he you know he was a Jew he he thinks it is a heresy because he was a good Jew and he just doesn't have want you know he knows where all

this goes he's not dumb uh but you he's not buying it he doesn't accept you know

Jesus but nevertheless he spent a good part of his academic career in this area next slide so summary certain passages in the Old Testament sounded to

the ear like the god of Israel was two there's two figures going on in here rabbis took note of that again they they were familiar with these texts I'm not showing you anything that is new

would be new to them the belief used to be acceptable till around 100 AD and one reason that it was reacted to was

because if you have this godhead idea that sort of helps the Christians make their point so let's just say that that's

bad you know let's take that point of our Theology and now we will just sort of do away with it because we want everybody in our community to know we

don't want to think this way that's not who we are if you want to be that then you got to be a Christian you you might as well just jump

ship let's talk about Old Testament next slide Old Testament Roots we're going to go back and hit some more actually a lot of passages and this will be quick so

don't you know take heart don't get discouraged next slide is identifying we'll start with these two

issues the phrase the malok Adonai Angel of the Lord angel of Yahweh and then this thing or this phrasing referred to as the name

Hashem we'll start there so next slide Exodus 3 now Moses of course we're familiar with this passage the burning bush tending the flock Jethro all that you

get to verse two he goes to see the bush an angel of Yahweh the malach ad anai appeared to him in a blazing fire out of a bush he gazed and there was a bush all of flame

yet the Bush was not consumed and he said boy I need to go see that I got to check this out when Yahweh saw

what he was doing so there are two characters in the bush the angel is in the

bush but so is Adonai so is Yahweh okay hold that thought they are both in the

bush later in Exodus 23 we see this same figure God speaking to Moses this is Exodus 23 after the crossing of the the

yam souf I'm sending an angel before you God says to Moses hey I know it's going to be a long trip it's going to be lots of Hazards but take heart I'm sending an

angel before you to guard you on the way and bring you to the place that I made ready pay heed to him and Obey him do not defy him for he will not pardon your

offenses why since my name is in him but if you obey him and do all that I

say if you obey him and do all that I say I will be an enemy to your enemies so on and so forth so this Angel is

singled out one particular Angel and what makes him different is my name is in him okay hold that thought you go to Deuteronomy

12 this name talk shows up a number of places in the Old Testament Hashem as you well

know is a academic term here academic alert right here I'm going to use an academic term here this this is a circumlocution it's another way of

saying it's another way of of referring to Yahweh himself his presence his divine presence Hashem it's the same individual so this talk shows up a lot

and especially in Deuteronomy so the Lord your God will choose amidst all your tribes as his habitation he's going to choose a place to to live to dwell to establish his name

there and there you are to go and you are to bring your burnt offerings and sacrifices tithes and contributions down to verse 11 you must bring everything that I command you to the site where the

Lord your God will choose to establish his name next slide look at the name is used here

Psalm 20 may the Lord answer you in the day of trouble may the name of the god of Jacob protect

you now the point here is not that if I get in trouble I'm just going to go I don't I I'm out I'm out of the jam no the whole idea is that the presence of God

God himself will protect you who is who is who is that well it's it's Hashem what's the problem Hashem I don't know

Ian it's the same thing same person and again we see we're familiar with this language but we often don't really think about what we're reading

some trust in chariots some in horses We Trust In The Name Of The Lord Our God and it it's a reference to him to his

presence his person not just four consonants hey the four consonants are going to protect me I mean if if if that's what you're thinking then you've just

turned the person of Yahweh into some sort of incantation okay it's not four consonant it's a person that's the

point 2 Samuel 6 I I like this one next slide it's kind of interesting that the font never comes out when you play it in PowerPoint so I

apologize for the font it's actually reversed so don't look at the Hebrew okay it's right on my screen you can look at my screen later but you don't need it David

gathered all the chosen men of Israel 30,000 and David arose and went with all the people who were with him from baluda baluda to bring up from there the Ark of

God which is called Hashem the name of the Lord now here's the trick if you go to some translation

they will really fudge on this verse you will read things like the ESV has called by the name of the Lord of hosts they'll omit the second one it

literally says which is called Shem Shem which is called the name the name of the Lord God of hosts

or the name who is the Lord God of hosts the ark was called the name now why would that be well Yahweh is really a wooden object that's what I'm learning

from this verse he's just really a wooden why would the ark be associated with the very presence of God this is

not a trick question because because that's where the high priest met him once a year okay and it's not a trick

question they they Associated that object with the very divine presence because that's where the divine presence

pardon the language sat okay the foot stol the throne you all this language that's where he was and so they could look at the object

go Hashem okay the presence is there where else would it be next slide Isaiah 37 behold the name

of the Lord comes from afar now we're getting language that makes the name sound like a person even more in blazing wrath with a heavy burden his lips his

lips the name has lips again it's anthropomorphic language and speaking about the name as though

the name is a person because well God is a person how else would you talk about him lips full of fear tongue like a

devouring fire again I'm I'm giving you the next verse all these verses to go back to Exodus 23 and say that when God says to Moses

look got a trip I'm going to send you to this land you you know all about it I know you're a little scared it's okay I'll be with you in fact I'm going to

send an angel with you and I just want you to know that when you look at that angel when you see him out

there my name is in him my presence my Essence who and what I

am is in that angel that's me out there now God has a fundamental problem if we back up a little bit why does the Old Testament do this

well God has he actually has two problems one is okay if I come to

people the way I really am they'll die and that just kind of defeats the whole purpose because I can't really have a

conversation if people are just going to start dropping dead so I have a problem the other problem is even if they didn't drop

dead since I'm disembodied I don't have a body how will they know I'm there so if you stay alive you can't

detect me so let's talk I mean how are you going to do this so this is why God chooses to appear in ways that can be

discerned with the human senses so that you know he's there and you're not really getting the full hym because if you did you'd drop over dead

so it's flame it's clouds and often it's a human it's human form it's this

messenger it's this Angel that's how you know I'm there I'm in him that's me it's just so that you don't drop over dead

that's how I'm going to do it so you're safe we've solved both problems you know I'm there and you ain't G to

die it's the whole point God has to be veiled in some way now Deuteronomy 4 we get another interesting little tidbit

here verse 37 because he God loved your fathers and chose their offspring after them and brought you out of Egypt Egypt with his own presence well no wait I thought it

was Adonai who brought them out no no no no it's the it's the malok Adonai who brought them out no no no no no it's the panim the answer

is yeah it's all the same thing now I bring this passage in to make the point that my name again I've been saying the name

is the presence the very essence of Yahweh right here we have it it's the panim I mean this is how God again and and the Hebrew text refers to God when

he meets directly with people okay Moses god met with Moses face to face Pim P you know all that sort of language it's him it's really

him it's not like it's not like near God or almost God or sort of 99.9 you know Ivory soap God it's him

really is him again that's going to become important because you're going to hit passages where we're not quite there yet they're both going to be in the same scene now we've already seen that

they're both sort of in the same scene because one is referring to the other we've already seen that next slide Deuteronomy 33 says it again my presence

will go with you how much clearer can he be well you know Moses if you're not understand understanding this like if you don't know Hashem if you don't know

this Angel and panim if if those three terms really aren't hitting it well let's talk about Divine ontology you know you can I'll give you

three credits for that you know we'll meet for 15 weeks and maybe you'll get an A but you need at least a c to lead come on he's he can't be much

clearer with the language that Moses is going to be able to comprehend it's really him I'm being as clear as I possibly can be it's

me next slide judges two now you go to judges two and something really unusual happens G to go through the whole thing here because it's you got to follow this

one the verse one the malok Adonai comes up from gilgal to bohim and said I brought you up this is judges 2 I brought you up from Egypt and I took you

into the land which I promised on oath to your fathers who's The Speaker Malo Adonai I brought you up

from Egypt I said I will never break my Covenant well wait a minute whose Covenant was it that burning bush thing wasn't that

thing you know I thought it was Yahweh yeah it was don't worry about it it's the same guy I will never break my Covenant but you

have not obeyed me okay again the angel is using first person language here making the point and basically saying look we had this plan I brought

you here and you blew it so what anybody remember what happens in this passage the angel says this is my long paraphrase hey look

I traveled with you guys for 40 years you got up every morning you saw me every day we ran around the desert listening to you

complain and I didn't leave now that we're here I actually did what I told you I was going to do and now you're turning to

idolatry it's time for me to say goodbye so for the first time in 40 plus years they're going to wake up the next day and he ain't going to be there

there that's why they called the name of the place Bim weeping he isn't here he actually left next

slide Genesis 31 this is the uh you know Jacob incident in the breeding season of The Flock I lifted up my eyes and saw in a dream that the goats that made it with

the flock were striped and spotted and model and the angel of God said to me in the dream Jacob here I am he said lift up your eyes and see and

so on and so forth we get down to verse 13 what does the angel say to him I am the god of

bethl remember when Jacob fled Esau went to bethl the sacrifice there I am the god of bethl

again how much clearer can it possibly be next slide this is probably my favorite passage in the Old Testament this is

this is just too cool for words okay this is when Jacob is blessing the sons of Joseph if you know any Hebrew you're going to get a

real you're going to get a buzz out of this one okay if you know any Hebrew grammar so he says isra Jacob stretched out his right hand and

laid it on ephraim's head though he was the younger and his left hand on manasseh's head thus Crossing his hands although Manassa was the first born and he blessed Joseph

saying button the god in whose ways my fathers Abraham and Isaac walked this is his

oath now it's h Elohim next line The God Who has been my shepherd from my birth to this day again ha

Elohim there's one more line guess what's in the third line the angel the angel who has redeemed me from

all harm and here's the kicker may he bless these boys these

Lads in Hebrew that is a PL singular verb form if the writer had wanted to make sure you didn't misread the text that

there's more than one that we need to keep the angel and God separate he could have done so right here but he

doesn't you can't fuse the two any tighter than this may the god The God Who did this The God Who did that the angel may he do

XYZ that one's just too cool for words judges 6 the angel of Yahweh came and sat under the terent that ofra which belonged to

joash the ozite his son Gideon was then beating out wheat inside a wine press in order to keep it safe from the

midianites the angel of Yahweh the malok ad anai appeared to him and said to him Yahweh is with

you okay so they're distinguished here okay Yahweh is with you Valiant Warrior Gideon again paraphrasing says you gotta be kidding do you know what's

going on here you know why is all this be befalling us next slide and so the it says and Yahweh turned to him okay there remember

there's we're looking at two Yahweh turned to him which is a curious phrase isn't it is Yahweh embodied or

not I can't really I don't know you know Yahweh turned to him and said go in this might of yours and save Israel from the hand of Midian do not I send you do not

I send you and he said to him please Lord how can I save Israel behold my clan is the weakest in Manassa I'm the least in my father's house and Yahweh said to

him wait a minute okay okay all right okay I get it there were two Angel of the Lord met him there and it said that Yahweh was there

too so I guess Yahweh is talking and he's just kind of staring at the angel who's not his lips aren't moving it's like a ventriloquist thing here is this what's going

on again it's a little confusing because you got two it's going to get a little worse Yahweh said to him but I will be with you and you shall strike the

midianites as one man and then he Gideon said to him now we don't know it just says him it's ambiguous so is Gideon speaking to the angel or is he speaking to

Yahweh well if I found favor yes the answer is yes doesn't it doesn't matter they're both going to hear if now I have found favor in your eyes then show me a sign that it's you

who speaks with me please do not depart from here until I come to you and bring out my present he said okay stay here I'm going to go make a present I'll come

back just just don't go anywhere okay so he said whoever he was Angel or Yahweh says okay I'll stick around next slide so Gideon brought them

to him under the tabith wait a minute he brought the sacrifice to the terab who was under the tabith anybody

remember how did the chapter begin who was under the terabit tree the angel was under the teror it the angel of God said to him wait a

minute if Yahweh was the guy talking why did he bring this the present to the a

what take the meat on leaven cakes put them on this rock and pour the broth over them and he did so the angel of the Lord reached out to of the staff fire Springs up from The Rock

consumes the little offering and the angel of the Lord vanished from his

sight then Gideon says wow alas oh Lord God for now I've seen the angel of the Lord face to face Yahweh is still

there he's still in the scene Yahweh said to him don't worry you're not going to die now if I revealed myself to you without

the angel then you'd die okay they're both in the same scene but they're both mixed and

separated okay my suggestion is all of that quote unquote confusing stuff is deliberate you're not supposed to be

able to make a neat picture because they're both him he is him and he's not him but they're he's still him

and it's kind of like we talk about Jesus Jesus is but isn't god well he is God because he's the same Essence but

he's not the father well like how can he oh don't ask me questions like that it's the same sort of kind of

dilemma you know like how do you how do you express that adequately got the same same problem here summary next

slide so far again we've got clear indications that there's this tuness going on the name is another way to refer to Yahweh himself the name is within the Angel and the angel of course

is in human form next slide other second Yahweh Clues next Slide the word next slide Genesis 15 so

we've talked about the angel we've talked about Hashem now we're gonna talk about the word hadavar okay after these things the word of the Lord came to Abram in a

vision I would suggest to you that when you have visions you see things otherwise it wouldn't be a

vision okay it's not just that he's hearing he's seeing he's seeing the word okay the word of the Lord came to

Abram in a vision don't be afraid prayed Abram I am your Shield your reward will be very great next slide 1st Samuel 3 this is my second favorite passage in

the Old Testament now the young man Samuel was ministering to the Lord again the Divine name under Eli a and the word of the Lord was rare in

those days see now we think that that means god wasn't talking much but what does the rest of the line say there was was no frequent

Vision the word of the Lord was rare in those days there was no frequent Vision down to verse 7 now Samuel had not yet experienced the

Lord the word of the Lord had not yet been revealed to him and the Lord called Samuel again the third time you know the story he wants

to go to sleep he hears his voice Samuel and he gets up and he thinks it's Eli and you know what do you want and they go back and forth a little while and then Eli of

course says well the next time it happens next slide next time it happens say Speak Lord your servant hears Eli

has it figured out so here's what we read and the Lord again Yahweh came and stood I would suggest that that's the language of

embodiment the the Lord came and stood calling as at the other times it's the same guy same person Samuel Samuel and

Samuel said speak for your servant hears and then they have this conversation that basically I just thought I'd come to you and tell you that Eli is doomed now you can go tell him right thanks a

lot you go down to the to the rest of the chapter verse 19 and Samuel grew and the Lord was with him and let none of his words fall to the

ground and all Israel from Dan to bah knew that Samuel was established as a prophet of the Lord why because the Lord

appeared again at Shiloh the Lord revealed himself to Samuel at Shiloh by or as however you want to

translate as the word of the Lord he kept coming back but he only spoke to Samuel that's how people knew that hey I

guess Samuel's a prophet because the word of the Lord keeps like showing up there this is not okay you're thinking John 1:1 in the beginning was the word the

Word was God the word was with John didn't just sit down one day and say Hey I want to do something close ever I want to talk about Jesus like in a different way all those other gospels are kind of boring they have boring Beginnings to

talk about genealogies and who wants to do that got enough of that I'm gonna do something really clever uh what should I make up okay he's getting it from his

Old Testament it's not new it's not invented next slide Jeremiah 1 now the word of the Lord came to me

saying Jeremiah again speaking before I formed you you know Jeremiah relating this anyway and here's the speaker God before I formed you in the womb I knew

you then I said Jeremiah now is the speaker ah Lord God again Adonai Elohim truly I do not know how to speak I don't

know what to say for I'm only a boy but the Lord again Yahweh said to me don't say I'm only a boy for you shall

go to all to whom I send you then the Lord again the third time now we got the Divine name put out his hand and did

what it's here's a hand but it's not really real I just want you to think it's a hand no he reaches out his hand and touches

him this is the god of Israel embodied who is referred to as the Lord and in the first verse the

word this is the embodied word in the Old Testament just like it was with Samuel and with Abraham we get it with Jeremiah here and it's even more

dramatic because he touches him so now I put my words in your mouth next slide let's do another one

and we're just rattling through these the cloud Rider he who rides the clouds now this one takes a little explanation this is not a Biblical passage you're looking at is a it is a passage from the

Bale cycle from ugarit and I start off with this for this reason all the stuff that we've been through again it's been my experience

again that all the stuff we've looked at that people still try to say this isn't God embodied we can't have two Yahweh in the Old Testament it's just Yahweh and

this secondary being this Angel thing who's less than Yahweh now not only don't I think that that works with what we've seen so far I think what we've seen so far is

sufficient to blow that away but this one just destroys it because everybody in the ancient world knew that Baal was

not a flunky angel this is a God okay in everybody's mind baale is a big deal he is deity he's not one of these

underlings he's deity okay keep that in mind one of B's titles was the charioteer of the clouds he who rides the clouds this idea that

baal's up there in heaven driving around in his Chariot looking around and you know being the boss or something like that okay so it's a title that's used of

a deity that everybody knows who that is hate him or like him you know who that is next slide what the biblical writers do on

five occasions is they use that title you know either identical wording or really close wording for that title

five times they use that title and they use it to describe their own God the god of Israel well m is as a conclusion we can

draw then that Yahweh and Baal were the same no you dunderhead the conclusion we would draw is that the biblical

writer is capitalizing on the fact that everybody knows who Baal is and now I'm going to take this title of Baal that everybody knows and I'm G

to give it to Yahweh and what I'm communicating theologically is that Yahweh is the real writer on the clouds

not this baale guy it's Yahweh so I'm telegraphing I'm using language that even you will understand you little baale worshippers

you I'm using a language that you'll understand so you get the point so there is none like God oh jeson

who rides through the heavens next slide Psalm 68 oh kingdoms of the earth sing to God sing praises to the Lord to

Yahweh to him who rides in the heavens next slide Psalm 104 bless the Lord oh my soul oh Lord my

God you are very great clothe with Splendor and Majesty go down to verse three he lays the beams of his Chambers on the waters he makes the clouds his Chariot who makes the clouds his Chariot

why it's I don't know Isaiah 19 you're see you're still you must have the bail psycle

memorized next slide Isaiah 19 an oracle concerning Egypt behold the Lord is riding on a swift Cloud it's not

Bale I don't know what Bale's riding I don't know what he's driving these days but it ain't this okay he's his car is in the shop and his chariot's getting fixed or

whatever it's impounded now all of those and and this is a this is a crucial text for the two Powers issue within Judaism all of those that I just showed you

let's go to the next slide we very specifically tying Yahweh tethering that phrase that description to Yahweh

himself The Only Exception in the Old Testament is this passage right here Daniel 7 veres 9-13 it begins

as I looked Daniel said Thrones were set in place that's a Divine council meeting the Thrones is plural there Thrones were set in place

the Ancient of Days took his seat we know who that is he's presiding over the event next slide His Garment was like white snow the air the hair of his head

was like Lamb's wool his throne was tongues of flame its Wheels were blazing fire you know just this Grand scene in heaven the middle of the passage the

court or the council again however you want to translate it sat and the books were opened and one like a human

being came with the Clouds Of Heaven hey the cloud writer decided to come he got the memo wait a minute I thought the cloud r was

Yahweh he yes well isn't Yahweh in the scene already correct well then we've got another one

here that would be the case Okay one like a human being Came Upon or came with the Clouds Of Heaven

he reached the Ancient of Days and was presented to him okay what was presented Dominion glory and kingship

okay this is a crucial passage for the because you might want to be you might be able to argue yourself I think really badly out of the Angel and the name and the word and all

this other stuff but everybody knows who the cloud riter is you're not faking your way through that one by the way this is the passage Jesus

quotes when he's on trial in front of Caiaphas when Caiaphas wants to know who he really is next

slide Matthew 26 yeah I think I have it in here too now single again quote you know the Jewish guy who wrote the two Powers book next slide there's a quote from single

here Daniel describes a Heavenly enthronement scene involving two Divine manifestations the son of man in the Ancient of Days it may easily be

describing two separate Divine figures yes Allan it is and your

ancestors understood that and it really bothered them after Jesus showed up it was something that needed to be dealt

with because we're going to lose points we're going to lose this argument from our own Bible if we don't don't do

something so let's make it a heresy that sounds great that's great you know and we we kind of minimize you know the heresy thing today you know because I don't know maybe we're just too

independent or not community-minded enough but that was really a powerful thing to be excluded from your community okay that was it was a serious

thing next slide so again summary Old Testament theology Old Testament theology includes the idea that Yahweh can be present in two persons sometimes in the same scene Old

Testament theology also teaches the second Yahweh figure is portrayed in human form and at times physically embodied this sounds awfully like

something else what would that be that would be christology next slide now I'll probably well we we could

hit we we have time question I I often get a lot of this is new to me I'm just I'm used to thinking of Jesus as the only begotten Son of God how does this relate to that description

of Jesus next slide it's a good question the Old Testament has other sons of God

who weren't human job obvious one Psalm 82 of course so since Jesus was identified with

Yahweh he was different than the other sons of God so we need a way to distinguish him don't we we need a way to distinguish him the New Testament does that in several

ways one of them is the use of the term monogan which we sort of awkwardly translate only

begotten until the 19th late 19th early 20th century it was assumed that monogan came from two Greek words monos meaning one or only

and G which means to beget hence the phrase only begotten putting them together later discoveries though

confirm that that was not really those were not the constituent parts of the term it really came from Manas only and

the Greek noun gen which means kind or type one of a kind unique monogan does not mean only

begotten it means unique it has nothing to do with begetting or beginning if you've ever talked to a Jehovah's Witness they need to see that okay

they're just thinking begotten it means you had to be it it's not even what the word means and you know what you need for proof of that you go to Hebrews

11:17 because Isaac is referred refer to in that passage as the monogan of

Abraham it's time it's Jeopardy time was Isaac the only begotten son of Abraham

think no no he isn't well then what would monogan mean if it's used of Isaac it means that Isaac is

unique in some way and you know how he's unique he is the son of the promise he is Sarah's

boy that's why he's monogan because Abraham had other kids there's ishmail

okay and ishma was even born first okay next slide we'll skip through here if you actually do a search of monogan you'll

see that it unique really does work a whole lot better but we'll skip that let's go to the summary slide so the summary only begotten language speaks to uniqueness

not point of origin since Yahweh was unique and Jesus was identified with unique the term was kind of important so when New Testament writers

refer to Jesus as monogan they're thinking okay okay okay okay Jesus Is God In the Flesh so there's other sons of God in the Old Testament and the Jews probably won't

forget that so what's the best way we can describe what we're thinking here Son of God but different than oh

how about just saying he's unique and then we can take that and mesh it with other arguments about Jesus like the

word and in John 17 when he prays and he says that he's received the name from the father and in Jude 5 when it's

Jesus who leads the people out of Egypt Jesus Jesus led the people out of Egypt according to the book of Jude I thought it was the angel I thought it was the

presence I thought it was Yahweh yeah yeah it was okay again these things are not

accidental they are telegraphing ideas is through what they're writing next slide what about the spirit

we'll close with this new testament theology a two-person godhead seems pretty clear in the Old Testament I would say but again I I sort of live

with this this is one of those things that kind of dominates my thinking what about a trinity what about three what about the spirit next

slide well two observations here once you know the strategies the Old Testament writers used to convey a to yahweh's idea which of course was where

we get the two Powers idea of Judaism once you know sort of how they do that you can detect certain passages where

these same phrases and wordings are used of the spirit it's kind of interesting New Testament writers then repurpose all this stuff they repurpose this one but

yet two thinking in the Old Testament to link the spirit to both Jesus and God the

father let me give you some examples next slide we have here Isaiah 63 verse

7 and I've colorized the terms for specific reason so they stand out here this is Isaiah 63:7 and then Psalm 78 to the right is a parallel I'll get

I'm going to start with Isaiah and I'll go I'll mention why I have the psalm there so Isaiah 63 I will recount the steadfast love of the Lord again this

Yahweh the Praises of the Lord according to all the Lord has granted us the great goodness of the House of Israel so on and so forth talks about again his Deliverance you get to verse n in all their

Affliction he was afflicted and the angel of his presence notice how it conflates the two the Angel and the presence the angel of his presence saved

them in his love and in his pity he redeemed them and he he gets them through the desert through all the complaining all these episodes we all know about but they rebelled verse 10

and grieved his holy spirit really how'd he get in there they rebelled and grieved his holy spirit therefore he turned to

be their enemy and he himself fought against them here remember the days of old of Moses and his people where is he who brought them up out of the sea with the Shepherds of his flock where is he

who put in in the midst of them His Holy Spirit Well I wa I thought God put the angel in the midst oh the psalmist is so

confused no actually he's not if you look at Psalm 78 or I should say Isaiah is confused if you look at Psalm 78 this is a this is a parallel passage if you

read the whole Psalm I picked two verses out because the verb lemons here rebelled and grieved are the same Hebrew words as in Psalm 78 but look at what happens in

Psalm 78 how often they rebelled against him in the wilderness and grieved him in the desert they tested God again and again

and provoked the Holy One of Israel you compare these two it aligns the spirit with God and in Isaiah 63 you have the

angel conflict relateded with the spirit that's three thinking that's pardon upon

triangulation okay that's what that is again New Testament writers and readers are

not half wits okay they know the text extraordinarily well they're not sitting there thinking

well goodness the Jews have a two-person godhead we don't want that we need something different well let's throw somebody else in there then we can say we have one more than you

do no they're getting it they're getting the thought trajectories from their Old Testament they're not making it

up next slide Ezekiel 8 again slide doesn't work real well hbert we'll we'll we'll get through

it Ezekiel 8 then I looked and behold a form that had the appearance of a man below what appeared to be his waist was fire and above his waist was

something like the appearance of brightness like gleaming metal where have we seen that before in Ezekiel chapter

one specifically the guy sitting on the throne that would be God okay but here it's someone that looks like a

man he put out the form of a hand oh he must have been reading Jeremiah he put out the form of a hand and took me by a lock of my head and who

lifted me up the spirit so we have an embodied deity from chapter one he's he's he's also human and form in chapter one here we get him described

as a man in chapter 8 and it's the spirit oh they're so confused they just needed a good professor back

then verse 5 then he said to me son of man lift up your eyes now toward the north so I lifted up my eyes toward the north behold the north of the altar gate and he's looking again this is he's

seeing the temple you go down to the bottom it's obscured here but I'll read the I'll read the rest of it for you son of man do you see what they're doing the great Abominations that the house of

Israel are committing here to drive me from My Sanctuary again you've got God you've got embodiment you've got the spirit

which one is it yeah all of the above I'll check D all of the above next slide now again if if if you're thinking in these modes let's talk about the New Testament before we

quit here on the left hand side what you have going on in the New Testament is they know what's going on

here in the old this column is Old Testament you've got Yahweh the invisible Yahweh you've got a second visible Yahweh figure and you've got it connected to the

spirit in the New Testament we have God the father and we have J Jesus and the spirit New Testament writers to

Telegraph the fact that we've got a correspondence going here in these passages acts 16 Philippians 1:19 Romans 8 1 Peter 111 look at the phrases that

are used the spirit of Jesus so if Christians are thinking well I can really see that two-person godhead here I mean our buddies the Jews are

talking about two powers in heaven we know what that is and they're using the the two-headed godhead here and then they're linking

the spirit to Jesus who is God spirit of God Spirit of Jesus same same same thing spirit of God Spirit of Christ God

sent the spirit of his son into our hearts see God didn't spend send the spirit of God into our hearts he sent the spirit of Jesus into our

hearts again it doesn't matter to the New Testament writer which noun they choose they're all interchangeable when they write stuff

like this they know that it is consistent with their Old Testament you know think about it wouldn't they have a problem if they're accepting the Old

Testament as canonical as sacred and it contradicts half of what they're writing in the old in the New Testament wouldn't that be a problem wouldn't it make them look kind of schizophrenic or or just kind of

dumb they know where it come they're getting it from somewhere next slide so I think we'll end here again when you understand the

two yet one how that's revealed in the Old Testament you can detect when the spirit is brought into the conversation in the same

way and again you get you move from a Tunis you know the angel is but isn't Yahweh he is Yahweh he's the presence he's all this but but there's still

Yahweh out there they're still separate again you know what's going on there and then the spirit gets brought into it this is exactly what they're doing in the New

Testament with Jesus okay referring back again to the second power so the old Testament two yet one two Yahweh is the New Testament at times equates the spirit with the second Yahweh the result

is you get three now I want to make one other comment just to tie up a loose end I mentioned them real briefly but I want to mention him again just so that

you get the idea the New Testament writers are trying to deliberately link Jesus to the god of the Old Testament and to

the angel because they're both Yahweh so on one hand Paul and he's not the only one to do it Paul will quote the Old Testament he'll have some

passage that says you know Yahweh said this or that the other thing and then he'll quote it in his what he's writing and then he'll take the Yahweh part and

he'll write either coros the Lord or Christos or Yus Jesus they actually do that they'll quote the Old Testament and they'll swap in a name or a title

associated with Jesus that is to Telegraph theology to the writer they're the same they do that with the angel too I

mentioned John 17 I mentioned the book of Jude of course we know about John 1:1 with the word and I'll close with the the scene at again with with Caiaphas in

Matthew 26 Jesus is on trial and Caiaphas has sort of had enough of it and he says you

know quit beating her around the bush tell us who you are and then Jesus quotes Daniel 7 and we read that and think oh Jesus is

trying to be clever he's trying to sort of put one over on Caiaphas he's goingon to give Caiaphas a riddle that'll be clever that'll irritate

him he says you want to know who I am Hereafter you will see the son of man coming upon the clouds with great

Glory does that answer your question now Caiaphas knows instantly what he just heard he just

heard this man standing in front of him claim to be the cloud Rider the second Yahweh figure in Daniel 7 and you know

why we know that Caiaphas got that message what does he do he rips his garments and says this is blasphemy we have no further need of

witnesses out the door he knows instantly what Jesus is saying and of course Jesus does too you want to know who I

am figure this out okay put your thinking cap on Caiaphas because I'm going to tell you and it's literally the end of the

conversation and it's the end of him so again this is you have to again be thinking in these modes to catch some of it because some of it just looks you

know like throwaway stuff right over our heads but it's not there's just a lot in there so slow down take a careful look and you'll pick

some of it up go ahead if the it's what about like when Jesus breeds on his disciples and tells them wait for the gift of the spirit I'll answer that this

way Jesus is but isn't God the Father we understand that he is God because they're the same Essence but he's not

the father the spirit is but isn't Jesus Jesus in in fact promises to be with them un the End of the Age wherever they are where two

or three are gathered in my midst there I am with them why because I'm the spirit too he is me and I am

him so he's just telling them I'm going but I'm not really going the spirit is Jesus but he isn't Jesus now we get the

spirit which is really interesting when you start to think about okay spirit is Jesus Jesus Is God Jesus of the second power the presence of God the same presence that lived in the tabernac wait

a minute the same presence that lived in the Tabernacle maybe that's why Paul refers to us as Tabernacles of skin and maybe that's why Paul uses

verbs like the spirit Tabernacles in us just maybe that might be why that language is

used you know we're not waiting he isn't telling his disciples to wait for a thing that is less than him he's waiting he's telling them to wait until the

spirit comes who is him but not you know again it's this I am but I'm not you know it's hard for us to to

talk like this uh because we don't have such attributes I mean we can come up with analogies that sort of work you know

kind of have illustrative value but but we can never be entirely someone else while still being ourselves but that that's what's going

on same but different in in really complete sort of ways you know all we can do is sort of mimic it we should do this really fast so he has to run

yeah uh question concerned with Genesis 1 two and then Genesis 1 I think it's 26 um the plural language there I

actually do not think that Genesis 1 126 is a trinitarian passage After all you've heard you may thought that's kind of weird Mike I do think though that in

Genesis 1 you do have let me put it this way when it comes to Old Testament creation theology there are three who play a

role you don't really get two or more than two in Genesis 1 but Proverbs 8 introduces a third character wisdom

wisdom whose motifs and descriptions are applied to Jesus elsewhere now just to head this off well wait a minute in Proverbs 8 it's a woman wisdom is Lady

wisdom and he saying Jesus is a woman now and he's herror you know what's going on here wisdom is feminine in Hebrew because it's grammatically

feminine hokma is grammatically feminine Just the Way languages work okay that's all it is you know there are other issues but we don't need to rabbit that with that now going back to Genesis

you have the spirit you've got God you have this co-creator from Proverbs chapter 8 everybody gets a apart so it's consistent with New Testament presentations of Jesus being the Divine

agent of creation there's no contradiction there back to Genesis 1:26 I take the the the plural uh the plural language there it's

a plural exhortation God is announcing to a group because it's plural hey let us create

let's create humankind okay when the verbs of creation when the creation actually happens they are all grammatically

singular they're never plural so I look at that and say God the father is announcing to some group which I take to be the Divine counsel just the guys in

the room to hear the plan and they say well okay you know you're the boss you know so but when it actually comes to the creation event

only God is acting it's consistently singular in verbs it's consistently singular in pronouns in the image of God

he created them in his own image they're singular pronouns too it's very clear it's not like ancient near Eastern cosmologies when you have Gods doing a whole bunch of things

you know and you get multiple deities involved in all this kind of stuff the Hebrew Bible is is painstakingly clear to not cross into that territory and

that in and of itself is a theological statement [Music] so I expect that microphone to be back really

quickly um um so in Revelation one it says I was in the spirit Capital Spirit on the

Lord's day I heard behind me a voice like a trumpet saying and then he goes on to say then he says the voice was Jesus so do you have any insight on why

how he can be like in the capital Spirit like the Holy Spirit I I think it could be used to blur the distinction between Jesus and the spirit

I think it's a it's sort of a a formulaic way of saying I was under the control of the spirit but even if that's the case the fact that Jesus is mixed into there into the language I think

yeah there there could be an intentional blurring there that that you're what's happening to John is actually happening to him at the behest of and under the

influence of two who elsewhere in the New Testament are the same but yet different so I think it's consistent with that blurring that happens

elsewhere hi I was wondering if you would agree in Acts 5 when it's talking about ananas and

saf and it says that Peter told them you have lied to the Holy Spirit and then he also says you have not lied to men but

to God God yeah would you say that that confirms the holy spirit's personhood you're like you're like yeah I I don't I don't have any

problem with that argument because um I I don't think that I think you could still argue the

personhood of the spirit with personal pronouns um um which is kind of traditionally you know the way it's done but uh I think in the context of this

other language about Jesus being the spirit but yet not being the spirit and the spirit is Jesus but yet he's different there is no ambiguity

about Jesus being a person and so once you link the two that becomes the foundational issue that after you recognize that then you can

look at these and go well that makes a lot of sense how else would you do it you know that kind of thing MH I was wondering if in your

studies is there can you tell by the words used the phrases the meanings for example one who was under

the inspiration of God or God had chose by Jeremiah in his writings versus just a good

literary writing by a devout Christian can you tell anywhere in the scriptures are are you talking about within the scriptures or something something

alongside like in Paul's writings do you find anything uniquely the same in Paul's writings as in John's or um any

of the Old Testament writers that links all this together the hand of God versus just a man just good literary

Artistry I I would be somewhat inclined to say it's a stalemate if there was just a handful of these but it's it it

is literally everywhere and you're talking about authors that lived over a millennium apart and they all do have their own

agendas but somehow even despite their own and when I say agenda I'm not saying it in a Sinister way I mean they got stuff they need to take care of there's a reason why they're

writing despite all that there is just hundreds may I mean you if you got really picky about it you might be

even in four digits um just threads that keep getting connected over and over and over again that

now I think it would be an overwhelming effort just as a as a human Enterprise to do that and frankly I don't know anything like it I mean that even there

there's nothing else even in the discussion in terms of thread continuity theological continuity and but on on another

level it it's sort of a moot question because I don't divorce literary Artistry from inspiration um God isn't taking a talented writer and saying we're going to have some

inspiration time today I want you to turn off your brain if you can't do that I'll turn it off for you and I'm going to start

dictating uh God prepares people for the task that they were doing he not only prepares the original authors those who come up with the first you know bulk of

the composition but there is there is clear evidence in a number of cases and you can probably find a good example of this in most

every Old Testament book New Testament probably the gospels at least of editorial hand that is fashioning material that has been left

to to someone putting it together even those guys like I'll give you an example first three verses in Ezekiel if you have your your Bible you can look at

them the person's chain it begins in the third person you know it begins in the first person I you know I was here by the river kear it was in

the year of whatever whatever and then it said and then he refers to Ezekiel the prophet it's a switch between the first and the third person it shows that

someone had content that Ezekiel probably preached you have you have schools of the prophets you have people following these people around preachers they're recording things or after they

die they they put them into writing and then somebody has to make a book out of it I like to say it this way I do not believe in the Holy stapler that is not part of my theology we say well Mike what do you mean by the

holy stapler what I mean is we have this idea of inspiration that sort of removes these human elements you're talking about and and makes inspiration again

these series of paranormal events where you know let's say we're followers of Ezekiel and we're following him around and some of us are taking notes

and you know we go out and we listen to him you know ezekiel's out again what what weird things is he going to do today you know is he going to get naked is he gonna you know what he does all these weird things we go follow him around we write stuff down and all of a

sudden he just drops over dead and we're like now what do we do okay I'm suggesting that the spirit prompts somebody in that group to say

but we better write this stuff down okay whoever ever had notes we're going to meet tomorrow at 2:00 and you bring everything you've got and so that yeah we'll meet at Starbucks and so they get

all they gather all together and it's like okay give me your pile and okay you got one you got two sheets and okay you know put them all together make sure the edges are nice and even where's the

stapler kachunk there's the Book of Ezekiel it is not how books are made somebody's GNA be tasked with we're gonna take the Master's sermons now and

we're gonna make them readable we're going to put them in an order that people will understand maybe it's chronological maybe it'll be topical we're going to do a good job

with it who knows how to write anybody a scribe here oh you in the back of the room you're elected okay you know what you're

doing here's the material produce something for our people for posterity we want people to know what

Ezekiel said we want people to know what God spoke through him you know the passage in Jeremiah where Jeremiah writes something and then the King Tears

it up and God says go make another copy God actually says in that passage he he says that that the words that Jeremiah is writing are my

words do a good good job because my name's going on this or I'm getting linked to this it's the word of God people don't expect a hack term paper

okay they expect something that's really well done and God knows that God knows it's going to get passed down so I don't I

don't really divorce these things but even if I did it would be a really difficult argument to say

that they just all were so smart and so brilliant that they could connect thousands of things even though they didn't know each other and lived at a different time and it went through more

than one hand you know it would just be a a phenomenally difficult argument