Midlife Divorce: The Facts, The Finances, and The Fallout with Jenny Hutt

the lawyer in in your office had had said, "Well, I think it's dry vagina that's causing these divorces." Which

obviously is an oversimplification, right, of larger issue. I mean, issues of are these women feeling supported by their partners when they're going through this change, when they're

battling the dry vagina or any of these symptoms of pmenopause and menopause.

And I do think there's truth to that that there can be a moment where a woman over 50 says, "What the am I doing this for when I don't feel supported and I don't feel loved and I don't feel cared

for enough and I don't feel valued and I don't feel cherished and I feel like I've been doing doing doing doing for everybody else. Why why doesn't he care

everybody else. Why why doesn't he care about me? [music]

about me? [music] >> [music] >> The views and opinions expressed on Unpaused are those of the talent and guests alone and are provided forformational and entertainment

purposes only. No part of this podcast

purposes only. No part of this podcast or any related materials are intended to be a substitute for professional medical advice, diagnosis, or treatment.

When I first started putting myself out there, before my books, before this podcast [music] one of the very first interviews I ever did was with Jennifer Hut on her Sirius

XM radio call-in show, [music] Just Jenny. I was so nervous I had to call it

Jenny. I was so nervous I had to call it the exact right minute because it was live and I was pacing back and forth in my bathroom trying not to forget my own name. But Jenny made me feel calm and

name. But Jenny made me feel calm and seen. She listened as I told her what I

seen. She listened as I told her what I believe doctors weren't telling women about menopause. She gave me a voice

about menopause. She gave me a voice when I was just starting out, and I'll never forget that. Over the years, I've been a guest on her show, and I've watched her evolve, always staying curious and honest about life, from

grieving the loss of a parent to transforming herself through healthy eating and exercise. And she's not afraid to tackle the messy stuff. Now,

she's returning to her roots as a lawyer specializing in family law and divorce mediation. And I wanted to have this

mediation. And I wanted to have this conversation with her because every time I talk about menopause and divorce online, the response is overwhelming.

Half of the women say menopause made them see their lives more clearly, that they realized what and who no longer fit. Others feel guilt like they've

fit. Others feel guilt like they've changed and their partners couldn't adapt. It's complex, emotional, and

adapt. It's complex, emotional, and frankly controversial. So today we're

frankly controversial. So today we're digging in with someone who understands both the emotional and legal sides of it. My friend and one of my earliest

it. My friend and one of my earliest champions, Jennifer Hut. I'm Dr. Mary Cla Haver, a boardcertified obstitrician and gynecologist and certified menopause practitioner. I'm also an adjunct

practitioner. I'm also an adjunct professor of obstetrics and gynecology at the University of Texas Medical Branch. Welcome to Unpaused, the podcast

Branch. Welcome to Unpaused, the podcast where we cut through the silence and talk about what it really takes for women to thrive in the second half of life.

Welcome to [music] the podcast. First of

all, that intro made me start to tear up. So, you're really good at this. I'm

up. So, you're really good at this. I'm

so appreciative. Like, I'm telling you, I can remember getting the call, would you want to do this? Yes. Yes. Yes. I

didn't have any idea what to expect. I'd

never done a live call-in radio show. I

I you know, and I just I remember distinctly pacing back and forth in my bathroom on the phone with you the whole time and watching the minutes check off and you just kept the conversation flowing.

>> Nobody would have known. kept me engaged and then it was over. Yeah. And you had to jump on to the next thing and I was like, "Okay, bye." [laughter]

>> You were perfect and flawless and it kind of tracks with the who that you are. But nobody would have known it was

are. But nobody would have known it was your first appearance. You were just you were just easy and you're so smart and you really know your stuff and you really care. And I think that came

really care. And I think that came through. And to your credit, I think

through. And to your credit, I think that's why people are so drawn to you because it's not just your medical expertise, but it's the way you deliver

it in such an honest, open, accessible manner. I mean, that's what women need.

manner. I mean, that's what women need.

People ask me, "How how did you develop this? How did this start?" And I I I

this? How did this start?" And I I I really think my superpower is being able to take complex medical information and take it down to the level of the listener, wherever she's at, you know?

and I just did what I was doing with my patients one-on-one and just started talking to my phone and then it the world just exploded.

>> I love that you use superpower because that's one of the things that keeps coming into my mind when I think about the menopause conversation or my shifting work life conversations is

tapping into my superpower. And

sometimes I think menopause and pmenopause are a superpower cuz a lessening of the estrogen sort of stops that people pleasing and then can just be without worry because you don't have

that coding of estrogen telling you to like calm down, be gentle, be kind or whatever when you don't when you don't need to be. But the other superpower is

communication. I've always been a great

communication. I've always been a great communicator and been able to sort of distill down what's going on with people to get through the emotion to the stuff that really matters. So, there's sort of

a similarity even though you're a doctor and I'm definitely not.

>> So, walk me through this career path because you've had multiple twists and turns. So, first of all, where did you

turns. So, first of all, where did you grow up? What's your what's your

grow up? What's your what's your backtory?

>> Oh, boy. I grew up in a two parent home in New York in Long Island specifically.

I went to college. I went to law school.

I went to then like an acting school. I

got married. I passed the bar. I had

kids and initially I was home for a few years and I did like some part-time legal work like I worked a little bit but I was mostly focused on my children and I think there are many women who

have this sort of happen where there's that feeling that we want to do more >> and I had that feeling that I wanted to do more. So it was a little bit of law

do more. So it was a little bit of law and then I fell into broadcasting by way of being a personal assistant. It's a

whole long story, but I ended up in this radio show on SiriusXM, my first radio show with my ex-cohost, who's Alexis Stewart, Martha's daughter, and I did that for five and a half years. And then

we had like three TV shows in this whole thing. After that ended, I started my

thing. After that ended, I started my own radio show, which was Just Jenny, still on Sirius XM. And I I pretty much had close to two decades of broadcasting now. All the while kept my law license

now. All the while kept my law license active. I would do some legal commentary

active. I would do some legal commentary on television and like little bits of legal work whether I did a closing or I helped somebody sort of personally with a legal issue or legal problem because I kept my license going.

>> Yeah.

>> And then I had an incredibly bumpy few years. I mean the kind of bumpy few

years. I mean the kind of bumpy few years that I wish on nobody. So in in 2008 I lost my mom.

>> Yeah. And then after the pandemic hit, my dad got sick and right before my father passed away, my SiriusXM show ended. So my SiriusXM show ended. I

ended. So my SiriusXM show ended. I

launched a podcast 3 days later. My

father died about a week later, which we all lived together. So like a very sort of imshed, involved, super close, tight-knit family. And then my marriage

tight-knit family. And then my marriage imploded. I mean, this all happened

imploded. I mean, this all happened within I think 18 months. Mhm.

>> And out of that I just in a way had this epiphany that I wanted to do more and I wanted to turn pain into power and

purpose. And I kept thinking I want to

purpose. And I kept thinking I want to be practicing law. I want to do more. I

want to help people. And I didn't even really understand what that meant initially. And I had first sort of

initially. And I had first sort of danced around this idea of becoming a mediator. I was like, "Okay, I'll

mediator. I was like, "Okay, I'll mediate divorces. That that's great. I

mediate divorces. That that's great. I

have insight. I'm going through this.

I'm in this horrible place. My

sister-in-law, my brother's wife, Amy, said to me, why aren't you a divorce lawyer? And I said, I just hadn't

lawyer? And I said, I just hadn't thought about it. and she said, "You you would be the best divorce lawyer there could possibly be because my history of speaking to women for decades on the air

and hearing everybody's stories and really not just understanding it from the lens of a broadcaster or a host or personality, but when your world is

shattered essentially due to however it happens." She said, "You would just this

happens." She said, "You would just this is just so the place for you." And I was like, "Okay, I'm going to think about this." And then I met with my friend

this." And then I met with my friend Jackie Herunian who's where who I work with and she said to me, "You need to be a divorce lawyer." It was just really crazy. It was sort of a almost kind of

crazy. It was sort of a almost kind of kisma thing. And they really knew better

kisma thing. And they really knew better than I did that this was going to be exactly the right fit. And I think I was terrified. So I did this mediation

terrified. So I did this mediation course and I became a mediator. And then

I just wanted to be the lawyer. I felt

like I could do even more good advocating for a specific person. And

while I do have women and men clients, I really I have a soft spot for women >> for the women.

>> Yeah. I mean, I have some male clients and I can help them. Of course, I can effectively advocate as I need to, but I really I really understand the

complexities of being a woman and being in really any length of a marriage, but especially a long-term marriage. this

whole concept of the great divorce that I know that you know about. It's a very jarring, jolting, strange thing to happen and it's nuanced. It's it's a lot

more than just sort of the the end or the change of a marriage.

>> For our listeners, can you explain the difference between mediation and what's the mediation part of this? What is the legal what is the lawyer part of this?

>> So, a mediator doesn't have to be a lawyer. What a mediator does is a

lawyer. What a mediator does is a mediator works with the couple to guide the couple to a settlement. So, it keeps the couple out of court, which by the way, lawyers should be keeping couples

out of court who are getting divorced.

In rare cases, do do divorces really need to go to trial? It's

>> 90% of the time you should not be going to trial in a divorce. And if a lawyer is pushing you to go to trial, not the best lawyer. mediation. The couple has

best lawyer. mediation. The couple has to be amicable enough that they're both willing to compromise and come to an agreement about division of assets and

custody and the unraveling of this marriage which is as you know a marriage is more than just a husband and a wife or a wife and a wife or a husband and a husband. A marriage is a family business

husband. A marriage is a family business in a way especially when there are children. So you're dealing with

children. So you're dealing with division of assets with custody issues with pets which now in certain states like New York pets are treated almost like children >> almost. We're not but we're getting

>> almost. We're not but we're getting closer. Yeah, there's recent

closer. Yeah, there's recent legislation. They're they're a little

legislation. They're they're a little higher level now than cattle than property. But you the mediator works on

property. But you the mediator works on behalf of both spouses equally. It's not

one over the other. Whereas with a lawyer, you each have your own lawyer to represent you and advocate for you. and

what's should be the outcome for you.

>> Let's talk about what's happening culturally.

>> Yes.

>> Um divorce rates for people and I've pulled these statistics over 50 have doubled since the 1990s according to the United States Census Bureau's 2024

report marriage and divorce trends.

>> Women are initiating the majority of those according to a 2023 American Sociological Association report. Why do

you think that is? I feel like you're on the front lines.

>> I am. And I have to tell you, you had done an Instagram post >> and you got a lot of flack for this post and I read it and I understood what you were saying. I had a ne a divorce

were saying. I had a ne a divorce attorney who came to my office and I posted it twice, two years apart [snorts] and I got the exact same reaction both times and in preparation

for this podcast I wanted to repost it to see if we would get the same kind of eye and of course we did. It went viral and there were very much two camps.

>> Oh yeah.

>> So was a divorce attorney and in her opinion, >> you know, she does a lot of gray divorce, mostly gray divorce and mostly does the female side cuz she's also female and we tend to gravitate towards

our gender. She was talking about how

our gender. She was talking about how she felt like menopause, especially the genital urinary syndrome of menopause and this untreated what she called untreated menopause was contributing to

a significant amount of the divorces that she was >> helping to mitigate. I just found that fascinating and I shared her story.

>> Yes.

>> On social media and the backlash >> wow >> is incredible. It's wild to see. Yeah. I

mean, people were furious because they were over I can say words like vagina and >> dryness, right? That's okay. Okay. So,

basically the lawyer in in your office had had said, well, I think it's dry vagina that's causing these divorces, which obviously is an oversimplification, right, of larger

issue. I mean, issues of are these women

issue. I mean, issues of are these women feeling supported by their partners when they're going through this change, when they're battling the dry vagina or any of these symptoms of pmenopause and

menopause. And I do think there's truth

menopause. And I do think there's truth to that that there can be a moment where a woman over 50 says, "What the am I doing this for when I don't feel

supported and I don't feel loved and I don't feel cared for enough and I don't feel valued and I don't feel cherished and I feel like I've been doing doing doing for everybody else. Why why

doesn't he care about me?" It's a lack of sort of that support being at one's wit's end rather than it being about her inability to have sex because of the dry vagina. That's where the sort of

vagina. That's where the sort of oversimplification is. And I think as

oversimplification is. And I think as there are women when they are financially stable and able and realizing that they don't need to rely

on this man for that kind of support and they've had it and they're just saying, I I'm done. I don't I don't want to live like this anymore. I have a certain number of years left and I want to be

happy in those years and I understand that it's I that wasn't that's not my story and I don't really get into my story because I have adult children and it's not just my story to tell and my

soon to be ex-husband he is still my family and so I I'm very mindful of my own story being that sort of private but >> for some women they really have gotten

to that point where they have felt devalued and I have clients even younger that feel that way that feel like they've been controlled. Their husbands

have kept financial information from them and these ones are not financially secure and yet they still want out because they they don't think they've been treated with respect and they've

gotten to a point where it's enough and they don't want that to be the example for their children >> that this is how somebody should live and be treated because it's it's not

okay. So, it's definitely complicated. I

okay. So, it's definitely complicated. I

think great divorce is complicated and you and I have shared offline. I don't

know if we talked about on on my shows or not, but you've gone through trauma and loss in your own family and seen people die too young, >> as have I. And I think there's something

about that, too. My mom died at 65 years old. I'm 55. I I'm not going to spend my

old. I'm 55. I I'm not going to spend my next 10 years being unhappy, >> right?

>> No. and God willing, I get to have 30 more years or 40 more years, but if I get my mother's lifespan, why would I waste the next 10 if things aren't right? I think there's that aspect for

right? I think there's that aspect for many of these women.

>> I I agree in reading those comments.

There's something about menopause that allows women to kind of circle the wagons and re-evaluate and put up boundaries. Yes. And for some couples,

boundaries. Yes. And for some couples, menopause brings them closer and, you know, they they go all in and and she's really able to focus on herself and realize this is the partner that I want for the rest of my life.

>> And that's beautiful and that's great, you know, and that's actually me.

>> Yes. So, you know, I'm in I'm a lifer >> and I love that. And I am promotionally even lifers have I didn't expect to be here. This wasn't my plan. And then my

here. This wasn't my plan. And then my plan kind of socked me in the head. And

so I had to pivot.

>> And I think there's there's that too for women >> that we need to find a way when bad things happen or when things go don't go the way that we anticipated and believe

that they would that we're still okay.

>> That even if we have to rebuild and restructure and figure it all out at a time that we didn't anticipate having to do so, we're going to be okay. And

there's no Scarlet Letter and there should be no shame. I mean, there is way too much shame. And that's the whole identity conversation I think we'll get into. But stuff happens and and what is

into. But stuff happens and and what is a woman supposed to do? Lie down and cry and crumble and not survive? No, we have to get up and kick ass. And I don't mean

kick ass and blow up the world and cause trouble. No, I mean kick ass so we are

trouble. No, I mean kick ass so we are okay. Whatever that means for each of

okay. Whatever that means for each of us.

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Your content has changed a little bit as I follow you and you're talking a little more about divorce. Yeah. So, I have changed my content a little bit because I want people to know that this is what

I'm doing now and I want to help them. I

am so excited every morning that I get to work with people and I get to make a difference and add value to their lives.

It is the coolest feeling in such a tangible way. Not that broadcast wasn't

tangible way. Not that broadcast wasn't doing that, but this feels different. I

I love that I can be available to my clients that they can text me night and day. Like that's one of the beautiful

day. Like that's one of the beautiful things about living alone with four dogs. 24 hours a day you can get me. I

dogs. 24 hours a day you can get me. I

am happy to help. Like I don't sleep all that much cuz I'm permenopausal. So you

want to text me, call me, email me, I'm right there ready to go. Like I don't drink. I'm always sober. I got you. Like

drink. I'm always sober. I got you. Like

I love it. And I really see the impact a little compassion has. Yeah. I mean,

these are people in the roughest time of their lives. If I could be there to make

their lives. If I could be there to make it like a tiny bit easier, I'm thrilled.

>> Do you see pmenopause and menopause like like being a part of of this realization or what they're going through?

>> Yeah. Well, I do. Where I see that is is I think you've been so instrumental in changing the conversation. We're not all freaks.

>> We're not there's nothing wrong with us.

It's biology and also there's way to man ways to manage it so that we don't have to suffer extra, right? Like it's bad enough. What I explain to patients with

enough. What I explain to patients with the the mental health part or the loss of resilience or why does my husband chew so loud which is happening in my house. I've eaten meals next to him for

house. I've eaten meals next to him for 30 years >> and now you have misophonia.

>> Oh my god. And I'm like, okay, this is a predictable response to the hormone changes going on in my body. Like like

this is not him trying to torture me.

this is a predictable response to what is happening in my body.

>> Yeah, it's so important that you share that because I think >> women are not so aware of those things.

I I have always understood my cycle and I know like day five of my period, the sky is falling, everything is cloudy, it's as if I have fallen into a

depression for 36 hours and then it's over. Then the clouds lift, the sky is

over. Then the clouds lift, the sky is blue, and I'm fine again. And I know it like clockwork. So every time it

like clockwork. So every time it happens, I can take a beat and say, "Oh, you feel like you want to die because of where your hormones are. It's going to

pass." And then it does. But if I didn't

pass." And then it does. But if I didn't know that, and many women don't. We need

you. We need you to say to us, "By the way, you're going to feel like this. You

may feel like that. It's okay. That

extra anxiety, it's actually normal in pmenopause and menopause, and here's what we do about it." Like that's when you started with the Galveastston diet from the very beginning you were

focusing on what would help our brains feel better when the estrogen levels change. But as I go back to the

change. But as I go back to the beginning it still feels a bit like a superpower because there is that ID thing that like I don't give a and that

>> that's beautiful for someone like me who is like always making sure that >> people pleaser.

>> Oh yeah. Please like please like me. Now

I'm like me.

>> Yeah. No, now I'm like just do right by me or do right by my clients or do right by my family. That's it. Like I don't care if you like me anymore. Not my

problem.

>> I think that's that's a superpower of menopause. You know, your clients come

menopause. You know, your clients come in >> and mostly women, I'm guessing. And what

do you wish they knew before it's too late? So they're coming in.

late? So they're coming in.

>> I think I want to get a divorce.

>> Yeah.

>> How do you counsel them?

>> Okay. First and foremost, don't burn down the house. Just don't. Divorce is

highly emotionally charged. And when

decisions are made based on emotion, rarely is it really the right outcome.

So, everyone needs to take a beat and really look at the full picture of what's going on and what you want to achieve, what kind of outcome you're looking for. What I wish they knew. I

looking for. What I wish they knew. I

mean, there's stuff you can do while you're married, happily married, like know your financial state, know what debt the two of you have together, what debt you each have independently, who owns the house, how much is the

mortgage, what kind of retirement accounts are there?

>> Okay, take a beat.

>> Yeah. What percentage of your clients don't know this information?

>> I mean, many don't. I will say that, and this is not their fault, so please understand, I do not in any way blame the women. And I actually think in a

the women. And I actually think in a healthy marriage where one partner stays home and the other partner is working outside of the house, they both are equally valuable to the partnership. And

it's because the one who's home with the kids is home with the kids that the other one can be working bringing in the money to to support the family. They're

both needed for that ecosystem. And if a spouse chooses to not share with the other spouse financial information or access to bank accounts, then that's not

a real partnership and that's not okay.

>> And often women don't realize that it's not okay because nobody's told them.

They've sort of put their trust into something and then they weren't really treated fairly. Now the good news is

treated fairly. Now the good news is depending on your state and the state of New York is an equitable distribution state. the monies that are accumulated

state. the monies that are accumulated during the marriage, even if it's just the husband's salary, that's marital property. So, you're entitled to half of

property. So, you're entitled to half of that equitable distribution, which in many cases is half of that marital property in in the absence of a prenuptual agreement that might say otherwise or a post-nuptual agreement.

And I think California is even a a bigger split. So, there it's very

bigger split. So, there it's very important to know that. So, you have rights. I want women to know their

rights. I want women to know their rights. And most law firms or many law

rights. And most law firms or many law firms will offer complimentary consultations. We do. I mean I we I will

consultations. We do. I mean I we I will talk to anybody for an hour happily because just to let you know what you're entitled to under the eyes of the law.

Which is why I say like these cases really shouldn't go to court unless there's an actual reason. Substance

abuse, stealing, reckless behavior, abuse, physical or mental. There are

cases where it should go to court. But

when it's just about dividing assets and fair custody or shared parenting, then a settlement should be able to be had because it should be based on the law.

Cuz if you go to court, a judge is going to make the decisions for you. It's

better that you're going to make the compromise yourself than having someone decide the compromises for you. If

you're listening or watching and you are thinking about divorce or not even, it's just good to know what's what. It's good

to know that in New York State, your partner, the bread winner, the person who has the more money, or if he's if you're the custodial parent, they're going to give you child support for the

child up to the age of 21 in New York.

And sometimes 22 if the kid is in college, you can decide to do that.

That's the law. So, getting to those numbers, there's all these calculations and and um apps that do it for the lawyers because most of us aren't very good at math.

>> And but it's good to know these things.

what you are legally entitled to. And

retirement accounts, if that retirement account has grown throughout the marriage, you are entitled the the monies that were added to it from marital money, you're entitled to your share of that. Yeah, there's a lot of

things that are worth knowing cuz the the the statistics around this are really scary. Um the financial impact,

really scary. Um the financial impact, so again, I was like googling statistics. After divorce, a woman's

statistics. After divorce, a woman's household income drops by 41% on average compared with 23% for men. And that was in 2023.

>> Depends on who their lawyer is.

>> Well, I saw this in clinic all the time.

So, I would, you know, I'd been taking care of this woman, delivered her babies, and then she'd come in and ask for STD testing when there was infidelity. And so she come in

infidelity. And so she come in devastated, you know, shuffled in in like a hoodie and, you know, usually this over-the-top glamorous woman, she's just devastated and so embarrassed to

have to come in and say, "I I need STD testing. My partner wasn't faithful."

testing. My partner wasn't faithful."

Not all divorces end because of infidelity or she had had an encounter, you know, for whatever reason. So, I'm

I'm going through and then, you know, we get into the discussion and it was shocking to me how many of them were moving into losing their homes, moving into tiny apartments, struggling to have

to find a job for the first time in her adult life. You know, we live in the

adult life. You know, we live in the deep south. And a lot of these women had

deep south. And a lot of these women had had partnered right after college and you know worked a year or two and then then chose to stay home and then all of a sudden are faced with this you know

inevitability of she is financially way worse off and she doesn't have a skill set that she can market right away you know to get a job.

>> So my aunts went through something really similar. My parents stayed

really similar. My parents stayed married until death and and that was great. And then but my I watched some of

great. And then but my I watched some of my aunts like have to move into government housing after divorces and their kids that that stays with you and so I've always told my girls, >> you know, >> be financially independent

>> that.

>> Yeah.

>> Always, you know, that has never never never not been a discussion in our house. You know, you must be able to

house. You know, you must be able to raise the kids alone that you bring into this world. If your husband's there,

this world. If your husband's there, that's great and that's wonderful and amazing, but you need to be prepared to do this on your own if you have to. I

mean, it sounds so cold and terrible, but I think that's the reality.

>> I choose to look at it differently, though. Not about that you need to do it

though. Not about that you need to do it because a man might up and leave and you're high and dry, so you better be able to take care of yourself. I mean,

that that is reality. But I look at the empowering side of it. That when you are able to be financially independent and take care of yourself, then the rest is a bonus. Then it's not a dependency

a bonus. Then it's not a dependency because you're afraid. that it's not a fear-based decision to be married or to stay when you're not happy. I I like the

idea of of being independent and having something that matters to you beyond the family and the children. And I say that as a mother whose kids are every I mean, my whole life is about my children. I'll

work till I'm 95 so I can keep doing as needed to my kids so they can have whatever they want that they can't afford on their own. like that's my kids are my they my kids are my reason for

being I mean whether that's right or that's wrong but having a job and a career and all different ones throughout the years is so fulfilling and it keeps

my mind going there's other benefits beyond the financial winds of working I am giddy when I get up in the morning now I I feel so purposed driven and good

inside like I'm making a difference and there's so much value in that there's that thing that when you're feeling bad about something, do something for someone else. And it really works.

someone else. And it really works.

>> Mhm.

>> It really helps. It takes you right out of your own is it makes you feel better.

So maybe it's selfish, but I really like the feeling of knowing that I'm making a difference for somebody else, that I'm making their life a little bit better.

I'm all for working and contributing to society. I think it's whether you need

society. I think it's whether you need to financially or you don't. So if

someone is thinking about divorce, give me the three top things that she should be doing.

>> Yeah, she needs tax returns. She needs

to get a a hold of all the tax returns.

She needs to see whose name is on what.

She needs to get snapshot of the balances of all the accounts. She needs

to check things like the kids accounts if there are kids. Are their college accounts? How is that being provided

accounts? How is that being provided for? Is there life insurance? What kind

for? Is there life insurance? What kind

of health insurance?

>> Shouldn't we all be doing this?

>> Yes. If I knew then what I know now, it's always that sort of hindsight is it, by the way, hindsight is 2020. I

look at the the blackbox warnings being removed on the hormone therapy now and the whole like 10 years before menopause and I'm saying to myself, okay, I still get my period at 55 years old. I'm going

to be 56 and I'm still getting my period. Is it too late? Because it's

period. Is it too late? Because it's

going to end. It's got to end. It's

going to end soon. You're you're fine.

>> But I've been laugh because it's the hindsight. Like if I knew then what I

hindsight. Like if I knew then what I know now, if I knew 10 years ago that I should start hormone therapy at the onset of Harry, nobody knew.

>> Yeah.

>> So it's that kind of thing like we we don't know. But now we do. So if you're

don't know. But now we do. So if you're listening, just get a clear picture of what's going on at home, not whether your husband's doing something wrong or you're doing something wrong. Just like

a full picture of your finances and and honestly like how much is your mortgage.

There there are many clients that don't even know how much the mortgage is on their home. I remember having seeing a

their home. I remember having seeing a conversation like ours on like Oprah years ago and I had little kids and I got out of residency, went right into practice and my husband is an engineer and just took over all the bills and

everything. I could not

everything. I could not >> have told you Yeah. what my salary was.

Like I had no idea. Like I just like shopped at Target and went to the grocery store and didn't spend any other money and and all the bills were paid and I was fine. Then I see this special on Oprah with these women who were

absolutely blindsided by divorce. Yeah.

And financially destitute. And so I sat my husband down and was like I didn't say if you leave me, but I said something might happen to you and I'm clueless. So we have since then sit down

clueless. So we have since then sit down on a regular basis and kind of go through all the basics. And then we live in a hurricane prone area.

>> So we have a box that I have to take if we evacuate with all of the important things that includes all that financial information. So I think a lot of

information. So I think a lot of partners in relationships kind of leave the financial end >> to one half and that's probably a mistake. I think that what you did and

mistake. I think that what you did and continue to do is really >> I did have to rustle it from him a little bit like what am I doing something wrong you know because that's no >> where they derive their power sometime they feel

>> it's I get it I'm the provider why do I have to what are you checking up on me but I think there is real value in having the dialogue and at least knowing the username and passwords and being

able to assess what's what in the event that you'll need it now hopefully you won't ever need it >> but and I also think for women that you should have a little bit of money of

your own somehow sucked away. Oh, here's

something important in New York and I don't know across the rest of the country, but inheritance, if you're going to get an inheritance, that was my next question.

>> That is separate property unless you co-mingle it. So, if you are given an

co-mingle it. So, if you are given an inheritance and then you put that in a joint bank account, that becomes marital.

>> Okay.

>> You have to keep those gifts separate.

>> So, are you still doing family law too?

So, >> all of it. Let's let's get into that because so many of us at this age and it is increasing the stress in our lives and maybe contributing to some of turmoil around you know ending relationships

>> is this aging parents >> and elder care.

>> Again not really speaking about my own marriage too much but I'm I know that sort of all the tough stuff that we had to go through at once was just too much for us to bear >> and that really impacted the state of

our marriage. The loss of parents a

our marriage. The loss of parents a change to our finances. There was a lot at once that had happened. Um, and then as you know that my daughter had a health crisis. She's thankfully,

health crisis. She's thankfully, >> you know, I knock on everything cuz nothing else really matters. Being in

the sandwich generation >> is tough. It's tough. You're watching

your parents struggle. You're there's

loss. I mean, my sister and I and my brother, I I'll say the three of us are incredibly close and that's a gift. My

parents did that really right. But I'm

watching my friends now all lose their parents and I don't wish it on anybody.

And but I say to my sister all the time like at least we're done with that. Like

at least that part is done. No, I miss my parents every freaking day. Like my

mother if she saw me now would be over the moon. I mean she'd feel terrible

the moon. I mean she'd feel terrible about the marriage stuff, but if she could see my kids and see me getting up every day and putting on a suit, she'd be tickled. Like she'd just she would

be tickled. Like she'd just she would just love the whole thing. I feel like at least that's done because it was so hard. I took care of both my parents. My

hard. I took care of both my parents. My

sister and I took care of our parents, both of them. And it's not for the faint of heart, as you know, because you're a doctor.

>> I know more medical stuff than I should for not being a doctor. And that's what I had to, you know, that's what I I was with both my parents when they died, >> leading up to when they died, calling,

you know, doing all the things. And it's

just awful. And it takes a toll because you go back to the dry vagina. Like who

wants to be frisky when they're like changing a parent's diaper essentially? What? This is a it's a

essentially? What? This is a it's a total m you know it messes with every ounce of you. It's hard to feel good when there's so much trauma swirling around you. What I'm finding is is

around you. What I'm finding is is there's the there's not hard conversations happening with how is this going to go down? What do you want mom and dad? What do you expect of me? and

and dad? What do you expect of me? and

then one partner is being pulled to to do X and Y is and it's always an emergency and last minute to go put out fires for the parents and the kid, you know, and so I think

>> knowing we're going into sandwich generations is having those conversations and really having the tough conversations with your partner and with your parents.

>> What do you want? How do you want this to happen?

>> Sometimes parents don't want to do that.

I think the generation in front of us like before we're so engaged, right?

>> So So we're Gen X. Yeah. So our parents are boomers basically and they did not want those conversations. They my

neither of my parents I mean my mother of hand cutic cancers that kind of came in like a like a wrecking ball and then my father was wholly unprepared to die cuz he just didn't think it would happen. It was like he just didn't want

happen. It was like he just didn't want to deal with it. Our generation and you know this and you know this from your training also like they didn't deal with mental health. They didn't Our parents

mental health. They didn't Our parents my parents cared that I was breathing beyond that.

>> I didn't really matter. Look, if I wasn't pregnant or in jail, my parents were like, >> "Correct. Okay, there we go." Right?

>> "Correct. Okay, there we go." Right?

>> They didn't care if I went to college or where I went or what my grades were. I

went to medical school. They didn't pay for any of that.

>> They It wasn't that wasn't what mattered to them. They weren't checking in on

to them. They weren't checking in on what was going on up here or in our hearts, right? Not in trouble and alive.

hearts, right? Not in trouble and alive.

>> Like my parents wanted me alive. So,

it's a whole different kind of that's how they were how they were wired. And

then we come out and now we're like dealing with that because there's so many feelings that now evolve because you can't suppress feelings no matter how hard you try. And then the next generation it's like we're like are you okay? Are you okay in this way and that

okay? Are you okay in this way and that way and all the ways and it's just a different animal. But I think those

different animal. But I think those conversations are really important to have.

>> So is the inheritance ruled state to state or is state to state. Okay.

because we are about to undergo we are undergoing the biggest transfer of wealth in the history of the world >> to women as we're surviving longer and you're inheriting it from your parents or from your spouse.

>> Now, >> from a philanthropic end, I think it's going to do wonders for how we fund research and women's health and all that. So, I'm super excited about it.

that. So, I'm super excited about it.

>> But, >> I want to talk about protection. So, she

inherits money from her parents, >> right? she inherits. So she needs to

>> right? she inherits. So she needs to keep that in a separate bank account with a trust name. So a trust is something that's also a way to protect it. So if you if you have a trust and

it. So if you if you have a trust and it's just your name and there's rules in the trust. The trusts are very hard to

the trust. The trusts are very hard to break and those are on a case- by case basis and they're very specific and you go to a trust expert to do that. I'm not

a trust expert. But I can tell you from a legal standpoint in New York and yes it is state-to-state and you should check out your state's laws and there are ways to do this and don't rely on

chat GPT okay do not cuz it's not always accurate and people get in trouble thinking that it is uh speak to a lawyer but if you do get a gift of money or an

inheritance you keep it separate in the absence of a trust you keep it separate in a separate bank account because if you mix it it is no longer separate.

That's it's the mixing. You cannot mix it. So, it's okay to set that boundary

it. So, it's okay to set that boundary with your partner. Also, that's why prenups can be a good idea and even postnuptual agreements. I I had a client

postnuptual agreements. I I had a client recently postup >> I had a client recently who it's a similar kind of story had gotten an inheritance and her father is still alive. He gave her a gift and he said,

alive. He gave her a gift and he said, "I'm giving you this gift under the condition that you get a post-nuptual agreement that this gift is protected so that in the event you get divorced, this

gift will not go to your spouse."

>> And so we wrote up a post-upual agreement which just says this has changed within the marriage. This is

what the this is what our financial status is now and this is how the assets would be divided should we get divorced.

Wow. Or should we separate? Yeah. That's

fascinating. It's not divorced and it's not a pren. It's after the marriage post. No,

post. No, >> I didn't even know those existed.

>> Exist. Yeah.

>> Yeah. How common are they?

>> They're pretty common now. When there's

a change, >> when there's a big financial change.

>> Okay, that makes sense.

>> So, let's move on to rebuilding. Moving

on. She's gone through the divorce.

>> How do you see women rebuilding their identity, especially if they were in long marriages? So, typically the great

long marriages? So, typically the great divorce is after >> the kids are raised. Yeah. When I got separated, it took me probably a year to feel like I could say the word separated

and or that I was separated and that and it took me a year, maybe more to feel like I could even be out and about. I

felt so strange. I was so used to my husband, my husband, my husband.

>> So standing on my own two feet sort of spiritually felt very weird and jolting and frankly creepy. I didn't understand it. Like my brain couldn't because that

it. Like my brain couldn't because that was not my my plan. How long was your marriage?

>> God, 26 years, 27 years.

>> I'm still technically married because I'm not yet divorced. But then I realized that again, I have this one life.

>> And I found community on my terms, how I want to live. And I think community is really important. finding people with

really important. finding people with whom you feel good, whether they're married, whether they're not, whether you want to date or you don't, just finding your peace and your happiness

and your people. And some might be the people you've always had in your life, and some might not. We And that's okay.

We've lost some couples to divorce in our friend group. You know, we all raised kids together, right? And I think it's a very common story, and a lot of our listeners will identify with this.

And our priorities are changing. The

kids are grown. They've all gone off to college and and I love these people. We

still see them from time to time, but our our lives are different. My job is different. My travel schedule's

different. My travel schedule's different, you know, and our kids are no longer forcing us to >> That's right.

>> you know, football games and basketball games and prom and all those things aren't making us, you know, have a connection. It's sad, but it's also kind

connection. It's sad, but it's also kind of fun.

>> Oh, I felt a relief when I didn't have to go to the games [laughter] and the parties and it's like, >> well, college parties were fun. Your

kids are a little older than mine. We've

got one left in college. I'm going to mourn a little bit not going to the big SEC football games. So,

>> you're more fun than I am.

>> Having two kids that went to SEC was super fun. I have to say for parent

super fun. I have to say for parent weekends, I will say that women who go through great divorce and women, whether they wanted the divorce or they didn't

want the divorce, it's always hard and it's always a bit of a death because it's a loss. It's a loss of what you thought would be regardless of reason.

And women, and you know this, tend to isolate when they feel shame or and I had that that feeling of like, you know, when you think about a cat or a dog that goes to die in a corner. I just wanted

to hide and I didn't want to let the people who love me love me. And I didn't want to let the people who wanted so much to care for me care for me until I

realized I was only hurting myself more.

And you got to let people take care of you and help you and love you when you need them to, even if you don't always recognize that you need them to. You

can't let shame get in the way of your healing. I think that's what it is.

healing. I think that's what it is.

Because if you get stuck in that shame spiral, then you're just going to stay there. You have to be sad, be scared, be

there. You have to be sad, be scared, be vulnerable, and like do all the things anyway. Put one foot in front of the

anyway. Put one foot in front of the other. I always give the advice just

other. I always give the advice just wake up in the morning, get through the day and go to sleep at night. Start

that. Start with just like the goal of getting through the day and little by little you'll start to heal. It it does happen. I mean time is sort of the best

happen. I mean time is sort of the best tincture like time will get you there but it's incredibly it can be incredibly isolating and incredibly painful.

>> Do you see your clients lives though do change for the better? Yes, I will say in my own case like I have the greatest group of friends for the most part the same friends I always did the couples

who had the wives everyone I I have my people and my girls and I am so lucky and my siblings and my kids I mean my kids are just my kids um but yes my

clients I see this shift along the way where at first things are really bad and it's a lot of it's going to be okay because I know it is and sort of making sure that they are really figuring out

what it is that they need and being motivated by actual things that matter and not anger because that whole thing you see on TV like I'm going to kill him or I'm going to this or I'm going to >> Yeah. There's always this very over

>> Yeah. There's always this very over dramatized not real life, >> you know, and it's, you know, woman who's hysterical and, you know, the trope >> there's time for the angry middle-aged woman.

>> There are angry men, too. Like I've

dealt I have dealt with both. The women

who are are feel like they've been wronged and the men who feel like they've been wronged. And you know, there's always his, hers, and then the truth. Like everybody has a side and

truth. Like everybody has a side and that's where you figure out the compromise. But as I said before, like

compromise. But as I said before, like you can't lead with emotion. you have to lead with clear thinking. And so I I sort of help them there. But

>> after the hysteria, a few months in, there does sort of set in this common understanding that you will get through this. And the other side of it is really

this. And the other side of it is really peaceful. Like it's really nice for

peaceful. Like it's really nice for women to after years and years of cooking and cleaning and sort of living on a schedule dictated by everybody else to know if you want Oreos for dinner. I

know it's not on your plan, but if you want Oreos for dinner that you can have Oreos for dinner and nobody's going to say a thing.

>> Yeah, girl dinner. And if you want to exercise at 8:00 at night, nobody's going to complain that you're not in the bed yet watching a movie. Like, there's

something really >> I see that with my patients. This

incredible piece around building the life just built for them. Never done it in 25 years.

>> And they're like, I do what I want, when I want, how I want. I wear what I want.

I don't care. And I freaking love it.

>> It's amazing. And and because we're at the point where for the most part, we've done the things, we've had the children, we've had that life that there's no

desperation to mate. There might be a want >> to have companionship or to date or to have sex or not or whatever, but there's not that thing that we had in our 20s like, "Oh, I got to get married. I got

to make babies. I got to do that thing."

Which is biological. I mean, we have to do that. We're to, you know, it's our

do that. We're to, you know, it's our species. It matters. But like now, if

species. It matters. But like now, if it's not going to be great, I don't want it. I don't want to go out with somebody

it. I don't want to go out with somebody who's, you know, mid.

>> Yeah. Awesome. So, you spent two decades, you know, having conversations.

>> Best trainer I could have had.

>> As a Yeah. I mean, do you feel that really set you up for success?

>> Totally. Yes. Because I've heard every story. I've learned that really valuable

story. I've learned that really valuable lesson that we're pretty much all the same. We all feel pain. Sadly, that

same. We all feel pain. Sadly, that

impacts us often more than joy. And it

should be the other way around. We are

different characters, different stories, but at the end of the day, the human condition is what it is. So, there's

something incredibly freeing about seeing that. And also, like, as bad as

seeing that. And also, like, as bad as you feel and you think it's just you, it's usually not.

>> That's the other thing. Like, we feel weird, we feel shame, we feel like losers, we so does everybody else, which then means like none of us really should feel any of that. So, a lot of women

will stay in an un unhappy marriage, unsatisfying marriage because they're scared. What would you say to her? As I

scared. What would you say to her? As I

said before, I am promarriage and pro love. And I do say to my clients, are

love. And I do say to my clients, are you sure this is what you want to do? I

don't push anybody into divorce because divorce is hard and it's a big shift and a big change. And I would rather theoretically till death do your part. I

do come from that model.

>> But if it's not right, it's not right.

And there are steps that you could take to get out. There are remedies in again in New York. There's family court. There

are you could get orders protection if you're scared. If you're afraid that you

you're scared. If you're afraid that you won't have money there, you get court orders so that you are supported. There

are remedies, but you have to do it by using the legal system. You have to exercise your rights. And unless you seek counsel or somebody who knows, you might not know what right meaning a lawyer.

>> Yeah. How do you feel about marriage counseling? Have you seen it work?

counseling? Have you seen it work?

I'm not sure. And I, you know, I I'm not sure. I think if it works, it works. But

sure. I think if it works, it works. But

I don't know that it's a And don't misunderstand me. I'm not saying it

misunderstand me. I'm not saying it doesn't work >> because you can't work through your issues.

>> Yeah.

>> I think you can. I think every couple has issues. But you're either going to

has issues. But you're either going to be the couple that stays in the issues and stays married or not. I do think there's a very fine line between couples who make it and couples who don't. For

some of my friends, I feel like uh therapy made them realize they need to go.

>> Well, sometimes that happens, too.

>> You know, it gave them more clarity.

>> Sometimes that happens >> around this this this isn't going to work or I'm just not going to I'm not going to do this for another 10, 15 years. I think that very often even when

years. I think that very often even when the catalyst wasn't what somebody wanted on the other side, even the the spouse who's been harmed or whatever

>> will ultimately feel better for the most part >> because the catalyst really is usually just a catalyst. Now, I'm not saying that the person who does wrong or violates the marriage contract or does

things they shouldn't do isn't a jerk.

Sure. But it's rare instances that it's just somebody's a jerk. Black or white.

Correct.

>> Right.

>> Yeah.

>> You're so funny and used humor to talk about really hard parts of life, weight, >> everything, >> divorce, your daughter's illness, you know, all the tough things that you've been through. How do you keep that humor

been through. How do you keep that humor going?

>> So, I don't know. I I think I was raised that if you can't find the funny, then what's the point of living? Cuz what are we supposed to just be in a ball in our bed 24? I mean, that might be nice, but

bed 24? I mean, that might be nice, but like you got to be able to get out and deal. And humor is a coping skill and it

deal. And humor is a coping skill and it changes your chemistry and your brain chemistry like like exercise, like moving. When we laugh, we feel better.

moving. When we laugh, we feel better.

>> So, find a way to get the the laughter.

And I mean, my daughter had a heart attack at 24 years old that came out of nowhere. Made no sense. There was zero

nowhere. Made no sense. There was zero risk. She had every tox. I mean, there

risk. She had every tox. I mean, there had there was no reason for this. It's

scat. Do you know about scad spontaneous coronerial detect? We still don't even

coronerial detect? We still don't even fully get that. It's scared. She doesn't

have FMD. I mean, it's all so crazy. And

at the time, I mean, she was extraordinary. She was so funny in her

extraordinary. She was so funny in her hospital bed, the whole thing. And we

just laughed our way through this awful, awful. We still laugh about it because

awful. We still laugh about it because it makes no sense. And sometimes it's the only way you can kind of wrap your head around something is to laugh.

>> I mean, the amount of times I left when my parents were dying, my sister and I would crack up. the absurdity of life. I

mean, it is absurd. Think about the things we do. Think about the trouble we have. Think about the great stuff. It's

have. Think about the great stuff. It's

most of it is pretty freaking absurd.

So, if you can't find the funny in it, I don't know. What's the point?

don't know. What's the point?

>> Yeah. I'm so so so glad our listeners are going to love this cuz this topic always blows up. Blows up.

>> Yeah. Not just the dry vagina. That's

the takeway. And that was that was the conversation I had this morning with another >> with a menopause expert. What are the top key things that you want listeners to take away from this conversation?

>> This is a thing I always told my kids growing up that there's no problem that can't be managed. Not everything can be fixed. I get it. But you can manage

fixed. I get it. But you can manage everything. We can get through

everything. We can get through everything. There's always an option to

everything. There's always an option to be okay. You will be okay. I know it's

be okay. You will be okay. I know it's tright and it's so cliche to say you're not alone, but you're really not. I

promise you the thing that you're going through that you think it's only you.

Yes, for you it is the worst thing ever, but someone else has gone through it too. And there's again beauty in that

too. And there's again beauty in that because it's community and that that's really helpful like just to know that you're not the only one suffering.

>> So menopause and you're almost there. I

promise. I promise

>> there. I know it's good that my ovaries still work but it's time. [laughter]

>> I'm I'm done.

>> Menopause often feels like society wants us to hit pause but you are not hitting pause.

>> Oh no. Not at all. I'm having the best time. Like I am so much happier now than

time. Like I am so much happier now than I was at 30. Like I don't want to be 30 at >> Did you ever imagine you'd be doing this? No, I didn't. I definitely did not

this? No, I didn't. I definitely did not expect my life to be where it is today.

For better or for worse, but I'm good.

It's like that weevil's wobble, but we don't fall down. Like, I just I keep going and I like I love life. I' I've

always had that optimism in me even when things are really really rough.

>> How do you find a good divorce attorney?

Not everybody can go to New York and come find you.

>> No. No. But I mean, there are resource there's family law resources online that you can look up different lawyers. Then

you meet them. You have to meet with lawyers. Oh, this is key. And I did a

lawyers. Oh, this is key. And I did a real about this a while ago. If you meet with a divorce lawyer, then your spouse can't. So go and have heard that many

can't. So go and have heard that many consults cuz you can sort of do that.

Um, but yeah, it's and as word of mouth is really helpful. It's not always Google reviews sometimes, I guess, but word of mouth. Talk to people. Names

float around. People kind of know and ask ask questions.

>> Awesome. Thank you for having me. This

was so much fun. I love that we get to sit together. I know. She is so cute in

sit together. I know. She is so cute in person. Let me tell you, it's not

person. Let me tell you, it's not smoking mirrors. Like, Dr. Mary Cla

smoking mirrors. Like, Dr. Mary Cla actually is [music] that cute.

As a reminder to our audience, you can follow Jenny on Instagram at just Jenny Hut. She is also on Tik Tok at Jenny Hut

Hut. She is also on Tik Tok at Jenny Hut and you can reach out to Jenny for a complimentary consultation at jenny@lawjaw.com. [music]

jenny@lawjaw.com. [music]

I would love to hear from you about this topic and anything else that's on your mind. You can find me on Instagram at dr

mind. You can find me on Instagram at dr maryclair and get honest and accurate information on health, fitness, and navigating midlife at thepawlife.com. My

upcoming book, The New Perry Menopause, is available for pre-order on Amazon. If

you're loving this podcast, be sure to click follow on your favorite podcast app so you never miss an episode. While

you're there, leave us a review and be sure to share the show with the women you love. We would be so grateful.

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[music] You can also find full episodes on YouTube at Dr. Mary Cla Unpaused is presented by Odyssey in conjunction with Pod People. I'm your host, Dr. Mary

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