Molly Graham: The grief, burnout, and opportunity hiding inside the AI transition

So, we've been chatting about your famous giveaway, your Legos career advice. This idea of how this advice

advice. This idea of how this advice applies in today's very strange AI world.

The narrative right now is literally like, okay, we hired this new employee.

This new employee is [music] the smartest employee that you have ever met. I want you to pour [clears throat]

met. I want you to pour [clears throat] every single thing that you know into this employee and then they're going to take your job in 6 months. Like, who the wants to do that?

Here's the big question, Molly. Are

there any Legos you should not give away in AI land? I think we got to caveat this. There are some Legos that

this. There are some Legos that shouldn't be given away. There's just

some work that shouldn't be outsourced.

There's a radical departure from your advice over the many years.

You individually are phenomenal at a set of things. Don't outsource it to these

of things. Don't outsource it to these weird robots that, you know, are effectively summer interns.

AI is taking a lot of our Legos whether we like it or not. And we're being encouraged to give away our Legos to AI.

you had someone on who talked about like the job used to be rowing and now it's steering and I was like I feel like there's a lot of people out in the world right now that are like I don't want to steer.

I've heard from a lot of engineers just like I really miss what it used to be.

Change sucks. It also can be awesome but we don't have to be fluffy bunnies about this. We can also just say this is hard.

this. We can also just say this is hard.

This is almost a discussion around what should AI do? Where do you want AI to be involved and where you not want it involved? What would you do if you

involved? What would you do if you believed your job was always going to [music] exist? It was just going to look

[music] exist? It was just going to look completely different every 6 years.

Today, my guest is Molly Graham. This is

Molly's second visit to the podcast. And

man, this is a powerful conversation.

The frame for this conversation is her classic give away your Legos career advice. But in an AI world, Molly's

advice. But in an AI world, Molly's advice for the last 13 years has been that your career will be better off if you give away your projects and your

teams and your responsibilities to other people as your company grows versus trying to hold on to it, which is what we naturally want to do. Essentially, to

give away your Legos. After 13 years of giving this advice and it unlocking so much wind for so many people over the past decade, Molly has realized that it is no longer true. when you are giving

away your Legos to AI, it's a lot more nuanced and complicated [music] now. And

so in this conversation, we try to get to the bottom of this question. What

Lego should you still be giving away?

And what Lego should you keep? If you're

not familiar with Molly, she has spent 20 plus years helping organizations and the humans inside them navigate growth and change. She's held leadership roles

and change. She's held leadership roles at Google and Facebook and Quip and the Chan Zuckerberg Initiative. These days,

she hosts Ted's work life podcast, which she took over from Adam [music] Grand.

She also runs an incredibly important leadership community called Glue Club and writes a newsletter called Lessons.

Now, before we get into it, I noticed a lot of people don't finish our full episodes and miss some of the best stuff. So, to help you, we've just

stuff. So, to help you, we've just created a new Lenny's Most Replayed Moments YouTube channel that has exactly this, the most rewatched and shared

segments from our long- form [music] episodes. You can now check it out and

episodes. You can now check it out and subscribe to the channel at lennispodcast.com/mostreplayed

lennispodcast.com/mostreplayed moments. There's also a link in the

moments. There's also a link in the description. Finally, don't forget to

description. Finally, don't forget to check out lenniesprob.com for a free year of the hottest and most beautifully crafted AI and nonI products in the

world. That's lenny'sprobass.com.

world. That's lenny'sprobass.com.

With that, I bring you Molly Graham.

Molly, thank you so much for being here and welcome back to the podcast.

Thanks for having me, Lenny. I'm excited

to be back.

Uh, I'm even more excited to have you back. Let me add a little context to

back. Let me add a little context to this slightly unusual conversation we're gonna have. So, we've been chatting over

gonna have. So, we've been chatting over the past couple months about your famous uh infamous giveaway your Legos career advice and this question came up and I

know you're hearing this a lot from other people. This idea of how this

other people. This idea of how this advice applies in today's very uh strange AI world where AI is taking a lot of our Legos whether we like it or

not and we're being encouraged to give our legos to AI. People are afraid about AI taking their legs. And so, uh, the question is just how this advice now

applies in a world of AI. And I know this is kind of an ongoing thought process for you, but you actually have a lot of really interesting insights and takes on how to think about this advice now in today's very strange world. And

so, we're going to have a conversation about it, see where it goes. This

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I'd say as a first step, let's remind people what this advice is. Uh I imagine most people have heard it. A lot of people probably like, "Oh yeah, I kind of get the idea." So explain kind of the original uh idea of giving away your

Legos. It actually started when I was at

Legos. It actually started when I was at Google and Facebook and it started as a a little talk that I would give people that worked for me and for context like

Google was pretty big when I joined. It

was like 10,000 employees in 2007 but my department grew from 25 people to 125 people in nine months. So that was my first experience with like really rapid scale and then I went to Facebook and

Facebook was relatively small when I joined. it was 500 employees and 80

joined. it was 500 employees and 80 million users smaller than MySpace which is always good context to remember um and you know while I was there you know obviously a huge growth curve I left 5

years later it was 5500 employees and over a billion users so that experience was nuts uh from a scaling perspective

and what I witnessed at Google and then sort of really witnessed at Facebook was how hard and scary that experience was

for people. Um, I watched a lot of folks

for people. Um, I watched a lot of folks go from sort of like you you build a thing, right? You show up and you become

thing, right? You show up and you become the person that owns the blog or owns this part of the stack or built that product and you sort of build like an identity around it. You're the this

person, whatever that is. And then the nature of scale is that everything around you changes. And so somebody shows up and your manager shows up and says, "Hey, you need to, you know, hand that thing that you've built your whole

identity around to someone else and, you know, go on to doing something else."

And your first instinct is like, "What?"

You know, like no, I don't I don't want to give it away. Like I I'm good at this. I know how to do this. Um I also

this. I know how to do this. Um I also think it's fun and what if it's the only fun thing to do? And so you kind of witness people like would have this tendency to hold on. And so what I

started to do with people on my team was say, "Hey, this change is happening and here's how you might feel, right? That

you might feel like all these feelings territorial and wanting to hold on." And

actually the most important thing to do is to give things away to to to evolve as the company is evolving. And my brain is a really weird place. Like I grew up on the Muppets, so I just like spits out

I always think there's just like a lot of tiny monsters dancing around singing songs in my head. But like that is why metaphors come out uh for me. And so I always use this metaphor of like just a bunch of kindergarteners and like

somebody dumps a pile of Legos in front of you and at first it's fun, a little overwhelming, then you start building and and the giveaway your Legos part is like that feeling when somebody else

shows up and they try to take the tower out of your hands and the kindergartener response is like get out of here. You

know what I mean? It's like shoving someone away. when actually like you get

someone away. when actually like you get multiple people. It means oh you can go

multiple people. It means oh you can go build something new and fun. You can

start from scratch and you can learn something. But the natural human

something. But the natural human instinct in the face of change is to hold on to things and to resist the change, right? To um to be territorial

change, right? To um to be territorial and all of those things. So anyway, I I started giving this talk to folks on my team to kind of help them understand

that change and what was coming. And

then eventually I sent it out to my friends at first round who were building the first round review at the time. And

just to be clear, this is now 13 years ago. Um the talk I was like when when I

ago. Um the talk I was like when when I was at Facebook, it was over 20 years ago. Um and uh it I sent it to first

ago. Um and uh it I sent it to first round and we published it and you know I would have said I was speaking to folks going through a Facebook like

experience. Like I would have said like,

experience. Like I would have said like, "Hey, this is an article that is for like the Stripes or the Slacks or whoever was, you know, uh, blowing up in in 2013 to normalize, hey, this is what

it feels like and this is what you have to do to grow as fast as your company is growing." Um, but what happened when it

growing." Um, but what happened when it was published is that I got emails from all over the world. I got emails from people at companies like Safeway, you know, where and this woman, I still

remember this email, wrote me and was like, "This was so helpful to me. This

like perfectly describes what I've been going through on my team." And I got an email again, I remember it very vividly, from a founder in Nigeria who was like, "My team went from two people to four

people this year and give away your Legos like is so valuable to me. Like,

this is exactly what I've been feeling."

And my first reaction was like, I didn't write this for you. Like, this is not this was not meant for you. Um, but my second one was, whoa, this is about

something much bigger than just what it feels like to be inside of rapid scale.

Um, and fundamentally, I think the Lego's message is about change, you know, and it's about the fact that when you go through change, a lot of happens to you. You know what I mean?

like it just is a very specific experience and I think that's why it ended up end ended up being so universal and it is crazy like I still get emails

about it multiple emails a month about it to this day. Um so it's it's lasted in a way that again like I just thought I was I was sending out a note to the folks that are going through crazy rapid

change. I uh I was at a first round

change. I uh I was at a first round event I don't know a year ago or something and they were talking about all the different posts people have written and I think it's one of the maybe the first or second most popular post on the first round review.

It's it's up there and it's traveled in ways that I don't think any of us imagined it would.

Okay, so let's talk about what still holds true in this advice in this today's very strange AI world. What

still holds true? What's still correct about this advice based on what you're seeing? One thing that's crazy about

seeing? One thing that's crazy about this article is I still get so many emails about it today. I still get asked to give speeches, you know, at every fast growing company. So I think for anybody that's going through rapid

scale, Legos is still really relevant.

But the interesting thing is like what started to happen, it's probably like two years ago is I got more inbound from

managers um and more inbound from leaders about Legos. just more people grappling with change inside their

companies and I think that is the thing that really holds true today and actually has just become more universal.

Um you know I used to uh really check before I went and did a speech at some company how fast the company was growing. Um, I would ask

like kind of about revenue growth and about headcount growth because that just helps me contextualize like how I should speak to to employees and I still do that. Um, but it's also become really

that. Um, but it's also become really clear that every single company in the world is going through enormous change of varying shapes and kinds right now.

And that is the fundamental underlying message of Legos is how do you deal with change and how do you um be your best self in the face of change. So I feel

like the the number one thing that is true today as true as it was you know 10 or 15 years ago is the change is really scary and hard. And I always say like

somebody once asked me to like summarize the Legos article in one sentence.

They're like Molly this is too long.

like give me the cliff notes [laughter] and I I said two things. Um

unfortunately they didn't get one sentence, they got two. The two

sentences were number one, your main job in the face of rapid growth and change is to make yourself irrelevant because it is the

only way that you can be prepared for whatever is coming next.

And the second piece of advice or sort of second summary of it was don't worry, it's all going to be okay. I always feel like the Legos article and the speeches I give are like a form of group therapy.

They're like just a giant hug. Like yes,

it feels chaotic and overwhelming and stressful, but there's all this opportunity on the other side. And I

think that the don't worry, it's all going to be okay is really something everybody needs to hear that like change is scary and hard, but it doesn't necessarily mean the world is ending. I

think this the second piece of that is that change comes with this incredible set of emotions like this wild roller coaster um that we don't talk about

enough. And I think that was a lot of

enough. And I think that was a lot of why I first started talking about Legos like at Facebook and on my teams was I just wanted to normalize for people what it felt like that that you might feel all these feelings and that that was

what everyone around you was feeling, right? That it didn't make you crazy and

right? That it didn't make you crazy and it didn't make you broken or something like that. It also didn't mean anything

like that. It also didn't mean anything was wrong. It actually meant that all

was wrong. It actually meant that all the right things were happening. And I

think that is very real today. Like when

I travel around and I'm talking to leaders, um, and I know you and I are going to talk about this, but a lot of what I'm hearing is is grief and all these different emotions. There's

obviously like excitement and um joy in in this moment of of chaos and change with AI, but there is a lot of sadness.

There's a lot of overwhelm that all, you know, manifests. Some of it manifests in

know, manifests. Some of it manifests in burnout, but it's like there is just a lot going on for people right now. And

you really can't lead right now without talking about that um and without normalizing that. And I think that's

normalizing that. And I think that's like such a big part of the giveaway or like I was, you know, today is just like

helping people understand that these emotions are just part of sort of your body and your identity reacting to change.

The other two things I would say that really do still feel true to me that I both talk about in the article and have talked about a lot since is like [snorts] one of the things I say to people that are inside of a really

rapidly growing company is the future will be defined by the people that learn not the people that know. You know, I always say like what you can learn by tomorrow matters way more than what you

know today. And like never has a truer

know today. And like never has a truer sentence been said than like about the age of AI. Do you know what I mean? like

whatever we thought we knew six months ago, like toss it out the window.

Something new is true today. But what I used to say to people and I still say I guess when I when I do these speeches is like you go look at that graph of how fast your company is growing, right? You

go look at like that curve, you know, and at Facebook it was like felt like we were falling off of it. That is the graph of how fast your company is growing. Yes. But it is also the graph

growing. Yes. But it is also the graph of how fast uh your job is growing, right? how fast every single thing

right? how fast every single thing around you is growing and changing, which means it's also the graph of how fast you need to grow. And I think that

is such an important thing to understand inside of a a world of change, which is that standing still, right? It feels

safe. It feels like hold on to what you know, you know, because that that at least it's not, you know, scary and unknown. But actually

standing still is like the least safe thing you can do. It's

basically you're guaranteed to fall behind. Um and I saw this viscerally at

behind. Um and I saw this viscerally at Facebook when because the first two years I was in HR and um you could literally see like the highest performer

one year if they didn't grow and change and if they didn't evolve their team fast enough, they were underwater like less than a year later because it was a different company. And I think this is

different company. And I think this is happening with AI as well. Um, which is that we do have these instincts to like hold on to what we know and to defend

what we know and to fight for what we know for a bunch of different reasons.

Many of them good. But the future is going to be defined by the people that are willing to just take the stance of learning and to throw themselves into

this change, scary and unknown as it is.

Um and that that message again remains true in this this wild wild world.

Before we get into just what how the advice is different which when you go back to your summary of the two kind of items that kind of summarized the idea one is become redundant and then two what was the second uh sentence.

The second one is basically don't worry it's all going to be okay.

Don't worry. Yeah. Okay. So those don't feel necessarily correct anymore. So

we're going to get into that because I think that's as you said the core of people's concern.

that was like comforting and now it's like well are you sure?

Yeah.

Um this grief piece just to spend a little more time here. I've been I've been seeing this a lot in a lot of different professions. I've done these

different professions. I've done these surveys that um we might get into a little bit but like just engineering as a role has completely transformed in two

years. It's been like the same job

years. It's been like the same job forever. Writing code, sitting there

forever. Writing code, sitting there writing code in various forms of idees, no longer part of the job. Now it's

talking to your AI to write the code.

Whether you're there or not, that's where it's all going. It's going to be 100% write this thing, build this thing.

And I used to be an engineer and I moved into product and I was I was so missing that flow state of being an engineer, just sitting there coding, building. And

now that's gone.

You no longer sit there and just build a thing. You're just like waiting for

thing. You're just like waiting for agents to run and then checking. You

probably have a hundred different agents and it's just like a very strange new job. And I've heard from a lot of

job. And I've heard from a lot of engineers just like I really miss what it used to be.

Yeah.

Anything more there about just I don't know what you're hearing from folks about just like man this sucks.

No, it's exactly um it's such a perfect example of like the grief. Um I was giving a speech like two weeks ago at

you know pretty fast growing tech company and this guy came up to me after and he'd been at the company for a couple of years so it's gone through like a huge amount of change and he was talking to me about the fact that he

just wasn't enjoying his role as much anymore and my brain immediately went to oh right like you enjoyed it when it was smaller and there was more creativity and now there's more structure and so I was talking to him about that and it

took like a while and to some extent like I want to go talk to him again because I feel like I missed it in the first conversation where actually I think what he was talking about was the

grief that is very present for him now in the fact that he's not sure what is his current job like what is this the company has grown and so he's more in a more structured environment and what is

just the simple fact that engineering has totally changed. Um, and a lot of what he was talking about was how much he missed being more handson, which is,

you know, one way of saying it. But I

think that that grief is happening for a lot of people. I think engineering is like probably one of the most visceral areas where people's jobs have genuinely transformed. Um,

transformed. Um, you know, so you had someone on last week, um, who talked about like the job used to be rowing and now Yeah. from OpenAI.

Yeah. from OpenAI.

She said like the job used to be rowing and now it's like steering.

Steering. And I was like, I feel like there's a lot of people out in the world right now that are like, I don't want to steer. Do you know what I mean?

steer. Do you know what I mean?

I want to row. like I like rowing or I I I mean it's and I think it can be hard to separate I like rowing or I'm scared that rowing is the only thing I'm ever

going to be good at or it's what I know and I don't know if I uh can be good at steering and I think that's happening in a lot of disciplines you know um and so

that grief like first and foremost like that grief is really real you know I was talking to a product leader just the other day who was like I don't know man we're like all supposed to be these like

you know universal builders now and and she was like I don't it's kind of lonely you know she's like I miss these parts of the collaboration that have been a little bit stripped away because now I'm

working with robots all the time you know and I was like I just said to her like yeah man that sucks sit with it for a second you know like change sucks it

also can be awesome but we don't have to be fluffy bunnies about this we can also just say this is hard.

There's so much power in just like saying the thing that you're feeling.

What a what a I swear to God that that is a big chunk of what the Legos article did was just like this is hard and scary and that's

and and it's going to be okay. You know,

this loneliness piece is such a important part to touch on. I had um Fiona Fong on the podcast who leads Claude Code, the engineering team of

Cloud Code. She's Boris Journey's boss.

Cloud Code. She's Boris Journey's boss.

Fun fact. And she said this exact that they're like I asked her just what's what's kind of the downside of this world and it's engineers are used to work with a bunch of engineers. Teams

used to be, you know, five engineers, 10 engineers. And now it's fewer teams,

engineers. And now it's fewer teams, fewer engineers per team. And it's just like you're talking to agents all day.

And so, so it's not the same.

It's not the same.

It's not the same. And I think that's actually something that leaders of companies that are actually like in charge of org structures and thinking about what the future of structure of

teams, you know, needs to look like. You

actually need to think about it cuz like yeah, maybe you can like strip out all the humans and you get all this productivity and maybe you get efficiency, but you also get sad humans.

Do you know what I mean? And like that doesn't lead to like the best work for anyone. Like I thought your survey data

anyone. Like I thought your survey data around the fact that small teams and smaller companies are so much happier than people at the bigger companies was really interesting. Um just because a

really interesting. Um just because a that like very much resonates with what I see in all my conversations with leaders. Um, but it also to me is a

leaders. Um, but it also to me is a reflection of like I think we're seeing more at these bigger companies where people are stripping out management layers and there's a lot more pressure

on productivity and and things like that and there's less room for the human, you know, there's less room for the joy and the excitement when all you're doing is focusing on optimizing cost and robot

efficiency, you know?

Yeah, man. There's so much to talk about here. Um there's this really cool

here. Um there's this really cool framework I don't know mental model that Corey Doctro wrote about uh a while ago where he talks about the the centaur and the reverse centaur. You heard of this?

No, but I love it already.

So, okay. [laughter]

So, I think I don't know even how to pronounce it. Centaur. Does that sound

pronounce it. Centaur. Does that sound right? Centaur. Okay. So, centaur is a

right? Centaur. Okay. So, centaur is a human body on top of a animal like a horse. Sorry. A human head, torso, top.

horse. Sorry. A human head, torso, top.

Clearly, you do not read enough Greek mythology. [laughter]

mythology. [laughter] I just watched the Odyssey. I'm an

expert on all things. your kid is going to get older and you're going to read the like lightning thief books and you'll get it.

Lightning thief. Okay. Yeah, I'll look forward to it. Okay. So, so idea is a centaur is human head controlling a animal body. Reverse centaur is an

animal body. Reverse centaur is an animal head controlling a human body.

So, the the way he his kind of insight here is what we want is AI that we control. We are in charge. It's doing

control. We are in charge. It's doing

our bidding. Awesome centaur. It's a

cool way to live. What we need to avoid and fear is the reverse centaur where the AI is using us to do things like Door Dash people and Uber people are in

that world already, not the funnest life. And it might expand to knowledge

life. And it might expand to knowledge work and I think that's a lot of people's fears. You're just this like

people's fears. You're just this like thing that's just controlling agents and just this like closing gap of here's where humans still are valuable and then AI is kind of telling you where to build and what to do and then it's and then

it's doing the thing. So, so I've been thinking a lot about that.

Yeah. I mean, I want to get to the fear side of this and the fear narrative as well because I think that's one of the things that is really different uh in

this this stage uh and this sort of phase because it's really hard to tell people like lean into change when they're like but wait like what's on the other side? Like you're telling me to

other side? Like you're telling me to let go of my Legos. You're telling me to make myself irrelevant. like you.

You know what I mean? Like I I don't believe there's a job on the other side.

And I think that fear narrative like I am sure some of it is real, but some of it is really overblown and it's and it's

creating like a pretty toxic environment for people where it's so hard to lean into this change with joy or excitement or any sense of opportunity. I always

say like the narrative right now is literally like okay we hired this new employee. This new employee is the

employee. This new employee is the smartest employee that you have ever met. This employee is like 10 times

met. This employee is like 10 times smarter than you and I want you to pour every single thing that you know into this employee and then they're going to take your job in six months. Like who

the wants to do that? Do you know what I mean? No one wants to do that.

Like that is not a good narrative for anyone. By the way, it's also not

anyone. By the way, it's also not reality. Like as of right now, like

reality. Like as of right now, like there is not a lot of data, although you may have more than I do that says that AI is genuinely taking jobs away. Um,

and I have a lot of beef to pick with all the AI branded layoffs out there because they're Like they're not about AI. Like they are about badly run companies slapping an AI label and

getting some share points from that versus saying, "Whoops, we made we hired too many people." Um, and they're propagating this fear narrative that is like all these jobs are your job is

going away, right? There is no job on the other side. One of the best, so I took over this podcast, which you know called work life and it's let me have all these really fun conversations with

people and one of the best conversations I had uh was with this journalist named Man Soari and she has been a journalist for 30 years. You want to talk about an industry that people have been

predicting the death of for 30 years, right? Journalism. And Minute has done

right? Journalism. And Minute has done everything like she started the BBC and she was uh super early in audio and she did this like crazy crypto audio podcast

and she's also like she's the host of TED Radio Hour. So, Minute over 30 years has built a very successful career in an industry that is being constantly

disrupted. And from talking to her, I

disrupted. And from talking to her, I basically walked away with this really interesting question that is totally different than, "What would you do if you believed your job was going to

disappear?" It was, "What would you do

disappear?" It was, "What would you do if you believed your job was always going to exist? It was just going to look completely different every six years."

years." And I just kind of wish that was the conversation we were having about all the jobs in tech and honestly all the

jobs that are theoretically going to get taken by AI, which is like the form is definitely going to change. But until we have real evidence, what if we believe

that they're not going away? They're

just going to reinvent themselves.

That is awesome advice. And that's

exactly what's been happening so far.

Yeah, there's always this fear that, okay, but now it'll be different in X years, but that is actually exactly what's been happening. Engineering exists, different

happening. Engineering exists, different job. There's actually more demand than

job. There's actually more demand than ever for engineers.

Exactly. Your data said that. And I was like, "Thank you for publishing this [laughter] data, Lenny."

Lenny." Before we get into the the advice kind of how it's evolved, there's a couple things I want to share which touch on things you mentioned about how people are feeling. So, I'll share these images

are feeling. So, I'll share these images on the screen as we talk about this of just people's feelings right now. Just

to kind of come back to that point. Um,

so we looked we did the survey for two years now in a row of how tech people are feeling and how they're feeling about AI and all these things. And so we have uh a trend now of over time how

things are changing. And we look at burnout and optimism.

And in 2025 44% of people said they feel burned out.

LA or this year 55% of people said they are burned out. That's a huge jump.

That's 10% increase in a year of people feeling burnt out.

And it makes sense. as you said, you're basically now expected to do more work, but not probably more money. And now

it's just like, okay, well cool. You got

all these AI. Why aren't you getting more done? Look at all these other teams

more done? Look at all these other teams moving so much faster. We're screwed.

We're going to go out of business. We

got to move faster. So, so it makes sense.

I mean, I love that you do that survey because I also think I learn a ton from it every time you've published it. Um,

and it's also just like a great reality check about how people are feeling because literally what your survey says is more than half the people are feeling burnt out which is

like nuts and also yeah I believe it and I think you know I mean burnout comes from a lot of different places and can mean a lot of different things to people but to me what I read inside that data

was like number one like emotions are tiring and there is a lot of exhaustion trying to understand what's going on in a I mean the rate of change right now is nuts.

um both in terms of like obviously the technological change but I actually think the narrative change is also pretty exhausting for people like oh this month this is important oh next

month this you know like there's a thrash inside of that that's pretty tiring um you know I was emailing with a friend at openai and she was like it's

taken us literally six months to go from sort of this token maxing like everybody like aggressive productivity like use AI everywhere to a conversation that's like

wait wait wait wait wait wait wait wait like is this actually making a difference because it's very expensive you know and she's like six months that's all it took and so if you're sitting inside that it means six months

ago they were like use AI all the time every day everywhere and now they're like are you doing it well enough you know and Hillary Gidley said the same thing where she was like you know six months ago everyone was like how do I

get people to use AI and now they're like how do I get people to use AI like stop using AI so badly you know and it's like that sixmon thrash often much

faster than that is tiring for people the grief is tiring let alone like I think that feeling which you mentioned in your survey of like I'm going to be

expected to do more for the same amount of pay like that's exhausting like that I think people feel taken advantage of, you know, and like

what is in this for me? Um like why is it fun for me? Um what's the opportunity for me? And I think particularly at

for me? And I think particularly at bigger companies, it feels almost adversarial sometimes, you know, where like, you know, I get why it's good for our bottom line, but remind me why

that's good for me. There's that

actually touches on one of the biggest findings in this survey, which is that first of all, half of people that filled it out uh are feeling the happiest they've ever felt. This is an important point we need to make is not everybody's

feeling fear and and uh sense that it's all doomed. That actually a lot of like half

doomed. That actually a lot of like half of people uh are feeling like they're having the best time of their life in their career and they're so excited about all the things going on. Like you

may not feel that. You may, if you're not that, you may not believe that, but from what I can see around me, many people are very excited. Even though

they're working harder than they've ever worked, they're also the happiest they've ever been about their career.

Yeah.

Well, and I think the context, if I remember, was like a lot of the happiness tended to be concentrated in people that were in smaller teams or had more authority like sort of.

Yeah.

Absolutely. And even more interestingly, the strongest correlation is people who said that a AI has amplified them.

They feel like they figured out how to use AI to do more stuff that they're excited about.

And that and interestingly, designers were the least happy from this work. And

that's actually what I hear from designers is everyone's moving faster.

Design can't move that fast. You have to get feedback from people. You have to go through get alignment. You need uh you need to think like sit there and think.

You can't just agent iterate mon. So

I also think isn't there probably well I don't know if you're hearing this from the designers but there's also a like everyone's a designer now.

Yeah that's also a big part of it when you're when I worked in education it's like one of those industries it's really hard to work in because everyone was a student once so everyone thinks

they know things. And I feel like now designers have that where it's like oh yeah I just made this in Gemini or I just [laughter] made this in Claude.

Here you go. Here's my design. And and

by the way, I think this is true of you know a lot of industries which is like and and whole products where it's like the gap between I made this and what is actually great, right? The gap between like I created

right? The gap between like I created this prototype and a product that is like exceptional is really big. The same

is true obviously of design. Design just

got like way more accessible to the average person. Uh at least okay design

average person. Uh at least okay design got really really accessible you know which can be exhausting when people are telling you how to do your job all the time.

Yeah. I had this tweet the other day that that got a lot of um traction uh along these lines. A growing part of everyone's job is cleaning up the AI slop from other people trying to do your job.

Okay. So, I have a lot of feelings about this and it goes to this super intelligence thing that we were talking about where it's like, you know, we saying like AI is like the smartest

employee you've ever hired in the entire world and uh it's better than you at everything. And I think it causes people

everything. And I think it causes people to like approach it that way when actually most of our experience with AI I think a lot of people uh have had the experience with AI where it's like

that's wrong like what I just asked you to do that like this isn't good I always think like AI needs the same coaching and training that a human does right it needs context it needs onboarding it

needs all of these things it and it's kind of much more like a like an intern like a bad intern often I call it a lazy intern Um, and what happens like to your

point about AI slop is that folks are approaching it as if it's like a a great, you know, the best employee they've ever hired. So, they just like copy paste send, right? And I'm like,

you would never do that if you thought about it as an intern. You would never take the presentation that an intern handed you and just like straightforward it to your boss. Like, that is a little

bit insane, right? uh you would iterate on it, you would edit it, you would ask, make sure that it had all the context from like the 57 conversations that you've had with the summer intern before

you ship that preso to your boss. AI is

the same. And I think part of what's going on with all the slop in the world is people have like shipped accountability. Like it's like, oh, AI

accountability. Like it's like, oh, AI said this was good enough, so I'm just going to like copy paste send, you know?

And that is never been how good work happens. You know what I mean? And so

happens. You know what I mean? And so

like I feel like we need a a change from like this super intelligent being that's better than all of us at our jobs to like no it's just a intern man and like it needs the coaching and

context and all of that and many iterations that most interns do. And I

think the other thing you know to your point about accountability is or to your point about sort of like if you don't take accountability for the quality of your work that shifts to someone else

right the person that receives it has to deal with it and that is like just a drain on organizations and like I literally see CEOs like we talk about

this all the time in glue club like she CEOs like shipping a strategy memo that was clearly written by AI that is you role modeling for your organization that

it's fine to outsource your thinking and it's fine to outsource your strategy.

It's you role modeling that you don't need accountability for the work that you send. Um, and I feel like it goes

you send. Um, and I feel like it goes down to this thing of like we're like we've this last six months we've really been like overvaluing productivity, which is just like, you know, you hear all these stories about like companies

like counting tokens and having token leaderboards and it's like it brings me back to the days when people were like counting cars in a parking lot and Slack bubbles and lines of code, right? Which

we all know is a really bad way to manage people. Um, and it's it's not for

manage people. Um, and it's it's not for we've been focused on sort of like how do you run as fast as you can on the treadmill, but like not am I going anywhere, you know, and which is to me

the difference between like productivity and efficiency. Like productivity is can

and efficiency. Like productivity is can you generate, you know, more, which at this point I think we've proven we can all generate a bunch of that other people then have to wade through to the point of your tweet. But is that

efficient? Does that actually move the

efficient? Does that actually move the conversation forward? And the answer

conversation forward? And the answer lately has been why no. It does not.

Yeah, there's a in that report I have this iceberg image of just like we're doing better on top. Oh, look at all the stuff, but the output is worse. Thinking

judgment is coming down. So, there's a lot of a lot of things we're watching.

The good news is everyone's aware of this. They're like, you know, maybe this

this. They're like, you know, maybe this isn't the way we should be working.

No. I thought I there was this really interesting engineering report that said you know engineer like for engineering it has genuinely made people more

productive but the amount of lines of code that have had to be rewritten has gone up like 8x so it's like this like very clear symbol of productivity obviously like also the security

incidents have gone up etc etc so it's like there's just this difference between productivity and efficiency and I think part of your burnout data is

like people are just getting swamped, you know, and that's exhausting if what you're doing all day is waiting through, did the person on the other side of this actually think about it? Did they

actually care? Did that's tiring. That

doesn't feel like a good use of your time. It just feels a little bit

time. It just feels a little bit infuriating, you know?

Yeah. Comes back to the grief of like, oh man, I missed what I had used to be doing. Look at this weird new job I'm

doing. Look at this weird new job I'm doing.

Yeah, totally.

Okay, so let's come back to your advice.

We kind of went on a really important tangent, but let's summarize what's still true about giving away your Legos and then we'll talk about what's no longer true. So, I'll summarize briefly.

longer true. So, I'll summarize briefly.

Took some notes as you were talking. So,

still true. Um, change is scary. That's

normal.

Understand that. It's it's part of human nature. We don't like change. Uh,

nature. We don't like change. Uh,

learning over knowing still a very important thing to focus on. It's okay

if you don't know, but if you're focused on learning, you'll be probably okay.

This idea of standing still at successful companies is actually you're falling behind. The company's growing.

falling behind. The company's growing.

If you're not growing and taking on new challenges and giving away stuff, you're going to fall behind. Is there anything else core to kind of what's still Yeah. I think I would just add one which

Yeah. I think I would just add one which is change is scary and hard and the best thing you can do is lean into it, right?

It is not what your instincts tell you to do, but it is actually the best thing you can do in the face of change. And

that was the message of Legos, you know, basically like you need to lean into this comfort of change in order to grow.

And I think it is still true today, even if it is maybe even scarier than it's ever been.

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Okay. So now what is what is different?

Uh the advice broadly is okay give away make yourself redundant. It's going to be okay. Uh [laughter]

be okay. Uh [laughter] I know that's the one that's hard to talk about today. Yeah. Make yourself

irrelevant everybody. It's gonna go great. [laughter]

great. [laughter] Um yeah. You know, it's funny like when

Um yeah. You know, it's funny like when I when AI first really took off and I first took me a while to really understand what was going on in total honesty. I was a skeptic for a while

honesty. I was a skeptic for a while where I was like we've been automating things for a while. What is this? Um but

eventually I I got on board and all of a sudden I was like oh you know that thing I used to do before I went to give a speech at someone's company where I was like how how fast is your headcount growing? For me that was like the only

growing? For me that was like the only symbol I had of like are there people to give Legos to? you know, if I'm gonna get up on stage and be like, "Give away your Legos." A lot of times people are

your Legos." A lot of times people are like, "Wait a minute. We're not hiring anyone. Like, who do I give it to?" And

anyone. Like, who do I give it to?" And

but now I was like, "Oh, okay." Like,

this message is like even more relevant because like everyone can try to automate parts of their job and everyone can give Legos away. And I will tell you, it

has been an interesting journey realizing how different it is to give things away to robots than it is to give them to a human. And you know,

principally the point was like of Legos was like you take this thing you've been working on and you fully hand it to someone else. One of my favorite

someone else. One of my favorite questions that I get asked at companies when I do the Legos talk is what is the best way to give Legos away to someone

else? And I love it because I think

else? And I love it because I think basically people expect me to be like, "So, you should incredibly carefully hand this Lego to this person and explain to them exactly why you put it

in the position you put it in, you know, like perfectly describe your tower. Make

sure they have like an instruction manual that they won't up." And my answer is actually no. The best way to give Legos away is to chuck them at their face and run in the other direction [laughter]

because our tendency again is towards control. Like our tendency is to be like

control. Like our tendency is to be like you will build this tower exactly how I built it and you will not mess it up.

But actually like the point is no you're giving it away. You need to fully separate your mind. You need to just hand it to them and trust that the future of whatever that tower is belongs

to them. Um and there is both obviously

to them. Um and there is both obviously like a lot of fear and a whole bunch of stuff that comes with that. But there's

a huge amount of freedom, right? You

take this brain space and you ship it to them. Um,

them. Um, interestingly, like one of my biggest realizations was that delegating something to a robot is not the same as

giving it to a human because you cannot get rid of the oversight, right? Like

you it's more like delegating something to someone on your team. You still own it. And so we've given yes we've gotten

it. And so we've given yes we've gotten more efficient because the robots can do X Y and Z for us but it's not the same as giving it away to a human because we

still own the oversight. We still own the sort of final product and that means the mental tax stays with you. So like

yes in some ways I can do more but psychologically I still have all the burden of all the stuff that all the robots are doing you know and I think

that does make it quite different because it just means you don't have as much space to then go on to the new things right you're still you've still

got all the tax of the cost of oversight is not zero do you know what I mean again I wonder if if this is part of what's going on with some of your burnout data is just like all of a sudden I'm

overseeing all these robots and maybe all these humans and like it's not it's it's it's more and um so anyway I think that's one of the biggest differences is

just like it isn't exactly the same. It's like the difference between like transferring a Lego to someone where you genuinely get rid of it versus like delegating a Lego to someone. It's so funny the way you

to someone. It's so funny the way you described it where you you need to not be you need to disconnect from the responsibility of this thing now and it's the opposite now where somebody

else is doing this the AI but you're still responsible.

Yeah. And so it's like having this Lego tower with this little robot coming through and okay, I'm going to build I'm going to work on this now, but you're it's you still have to represent this tower to your boss.

And so I could 100% see this metaphor clear.

If you're a manager, it's a familiar feeling, right? Your team got twice as

feeling, right? Your team got twice as big and now you just have these weird little robots that occasionally like up the tower and you have to be like, "No, no, no, no, no, no. That's

not what I said." You know, which is like again managing an intern. Like you

get it. But if you're not a manager, like if you've never been a manager, and I do think it's important to name that like like I said, like managing robots, those skills are very similar to

managing human humans. They have less feelings, but you know, it's all the same skills of like oversight and, you know, giving them context and correcting their work and coaching and like all

those skills are the same for managing a robot um as they are for managing a human. And a lot of people don't like

human. And a lot of people don't like that Like so many people actively like chose not to become a manager. Do

you know what I mean? And so there is exhaustion that comes with if you haven't you know if you don't enjoy delegating if you haven't worked on all these skills for many many years like

then suddenly you are in that stance of management but it also just I mean it just means literally everyone in the world is a manager now you know and um all you're doing when you're delegating to robots is delegating just like you

would to another human on your team. So,

you know, I always say the happiest the max people should be managing is like 10 to 12 employees. Like I've I've managed bigger teams than that and it was not a good look. And I don't think there's any

good look. And I don't think there's any data that says that people can manage more than that now. And if you count robots, like I'm worried for people's like psychology, you know what I mean?

Um in terms of like the amount you have to hold in your head.

Yeah. I build a lot of random stuff and I have all these different agents running and on the one hand it's so awesome and all these things get done and it's just like wow look at this thing go I did all these things and then

also I get pinged all day from all these guys they're like what about this okay oh I'm stuck here oh is this good and I'm like okay I got to look through this all actually so I work with an actual human engineer also and I'm just like it

makes you appreciate a human awesome engineer that you could just give a rough idea to and they could run with it and do an awesome versus this sucks. Okay, let's try again and then sit there for five minutes and wait.

Uh so yeah, it is the difference between managing junior employees and managing senior employees. Do you know what I mean? Like

employees. Do you know what I mean? Like

AI right now pretty junior employees.

It's not my favorite form of management.

I always say like give me the high performers, give me I can turn them into these incredible rocket ships. Like

managing interns, managing like folks that are brand new to the workplace is pretty tiring. And I do think that is

pretty tiring. And I do think that is like what it feels like managing AI. And

it's so different, like I said, than like throwing a Lego at someone and running the other direction, which you can do with your senior engineer, you know?

Such a good point. Okay, we'll get to like actual advice. Here's what you should probably do. But before we get there, what else is different about the original advice around giving away Legos? The first one, so good. Just like

Legos? The first one, so good. Just like

uh you made it so obvious why it is very different to give your Legos away to a machine because you're not actually giving away a they're just going to do the work and then you're still responsible for it and you have to oversee it.

Yeah. Yeah. And I think the second thing that's really different and we sort of talked about a little bit already, but like my message was always like you give things away because the only way you can

make space for new opportunity is by giving things away. Do you know what I mean? And like that has two assumptions

mean? And like that has two assumptions under it. One that it's good to give

under it. One that it's good to give things away and two that there's new opportunity on the other side. Um, and I think this, you know, what I talked

about with the fear narrative is one of the things that's driving me nuts in the world, and we talk about it a lot in Glue Club is just this dominant narrative that like all these jobs are

going away because of AI and, you know, all these layoffs that are branded as AI. like that is not going to support

AI. like that is not going to support anybody being in a stance of like yeah let's like delegate everything to these robots let's give them every piece of

you know our brain and our data so that we can have all this new opportunity that's coming along like I think it is the hardest conversation to have right now and in you know to your point about

like there's lots of people out there that are really excited there are and I want that for everyone because this is like an incredible moment like you know

I've been in technology for almost 20 years and um I've seen a lot but like this is this is one of those moments this is you know the mobile phone on steroids where it's like all sorts of

businesses are going to be created I'm a believer that a lot of jobs are going to be created because of this technology but I think we got to start having that conversation in order to get to the

place where everyone can be leaning in right everyone can say oh it's great to automate all these tasks that I hate because it gives me more time to do the things that I love, you know, which is like I think to your point about the

people that feel amplified by it, it's like, oh, I don't have to do all this boring ass work. I can just focus on the things that bring me joy, right? I can

focus on the things that I'm great at.

That's what we want. But while there's this narrative out there that, you know, media companies are propagating that says like there's nothing for you on the other side. Do you know what I mean?

other side. Do you know what I mean?

We've we got universal basic income.

Everyone needs to be supported by the state because no one's going to have a job in 10 years. Like, who the wants to give Legos to robots if that's the narrative? No one.

the narrative? No one.

I went to this um thing called food camp. Have you heard of food camp?

camp. Have you heard of food camp?

I've heard of it.

Tim O'Reilly who started Orley Media, awesome, smart guy. He came up with web 2.0 is a concept. uh he organizes these little kind of intimate camps where he invites people that he thinks are you

know can contribute to this conversation um to talk about all like a topic and this last one is around just like what happens with humans when AI does more and more of our job and it started with

him talking to some I think it was a lawyer who's just like okay I'm hoarding this very specific knowledge I have about doing this job so that AI cannot

do it it's like I need protect it because otherwise I'm I'm going to be replaced. They don't need me anymore.

replaced. They don't need me anymore.

And I feel like a lot of people are probably feeling that. A lot of specific niche professions especially.

Yeah, absolutely. And I go back first of all, yes, of course. Like, how could you not be feeling that way?

I don't know. Maybe I'm an abundance person and maybe I'll regret saying this in six months or five years, but I'm like every piece of data I have from my

entire life and you know some of these convers conversations I've had like the one with Minute say you got to lean in.

You know what I mean? That protection

and holding on and gripping to what you know is not the way you thrive in change. Um it's not the people that

change. Um it's not the people that define the future. And you know again the minut story would say lawyers are always going to exist. They are going to

look completely different in every six years or every three years or whatever.

So what do you think the next version of a lawyer looks like? Do you want to be part of designing that? Do you want to be part of creating that? Do you want to be part of figuring that out? Or do you want to stay here and try to protect

what you know? And this is I think you know that's to me again like it's scary out there right now. So I don't want to undervalue that

now. So I don't want to undervalue that but I think you have to take that stance of you know agency or we got to use a different word entrepreneurship you know like you got to take that stance of I

want to be part of designing the future of my profession not protecting the past. I I really really love this

past. I I really really love this framework as like almost a maybe that's a big part of the advice from this conversation is uh this uh way of thinking from minutes is like my job

will be different but it'll continue to exist and and the question is just what will it be and let me think about that lean in like prepare for that almost and not try to resist because like resisting is not going to work anyway.

Yeah. And if you listen to Minutiae's story, like it's such an entrepreneurial story and and I know that not everyone is great at that. Um but it is very much

the like let me try this next. It's just

like but it comes you know for her it just I think it was founded in this belief of like this profession is evolving and changing and I want to be part of defining the future of it you

know and I again I think that's until the data genuinely tells us otherwise like I would say that is the stance I would take particularly in tech

what would you do if you believe there were going to be more and different interesting engineering jobs you know in five years um How would you behave if you believed there was opportunity on

the other side of letting go?

Well, let's see if there's more to that thread because that's that's really helpful, which is okay. This is going to go great. My product managers will

go great. My product managers will thrive. There will be more need for

thrive. There will be more need for product managers because a lot of listeners here are PMs, engineers, founders. Um, so what do you think

founders. Um, so what do you think people should be trying to do in that world where there will be more? Is it

like pay attention to how you're amplified? Is it look at people who are

amplified? Is it look at people who are doing great and do what they're doing?

Like what what do you think people could be doing to succeed in that future?

It's funny. We had a conversation. We

run these um my team and I run these like top talent cohorts at companies and um a lot of what we do is like get leaders talking to each other and helping each other. And this woman who

is a head of design brought this problem where she was like they won't let me ship code. She's like I I did it. like I

ship code. She's like I I did it. like I

basically built the thing and I was like just let me let me get it to production and she was like talking to engineering was like a brick wall you know where they were like no you can't ship code like you're you're a designer I'm an

engineer like I own what goes to production and you know there are good reasons for not letting things go willy-nilly to production you know particularly if you work in the

financial space which they did like I get it but I think so much of the stance is we got to break down some of these walls uh between you know what is

what was a designer right what was a engineer what was a PM this is obviously like a lot of what's happening but how do we really shed what we knew which again is hard it's hard to let go of

those Legos you know what I mean um and imagine okay what does it look like you know this is why I think the startup land is so happy is because they're not fighting against the way things were

they're inventing the way things could be and how can you make more space for that inside of a company. Um, to me is the is the number one thing I talk about when I go, which is like

if if you're not leaning into the creativity conversation versus the fear conversation, like you are leading folks who are just terrified, right? like how

do you get people to into a stance of like I'm excited and I'm I want to try things and I want to like tenatively let this designer ship code to production,

you know? Um so to me like I think how

you know? Um so to me like I think how can you imagine a world with less walls?

How can you get rid of some of those walls that have felt so important, you know, for the way we've done things for the last 15, 20, 25 years? Um I think that is a conversation that a lot of

folks should be having just along those lines just to be clear is the idea here. Okay, I have been a designer my whole life is the advice there. Okay, like maybe I'll be

there. Okay, like maybe I'll be something else in the next few years that's not just designer. No, I feel like a lot of your conversations are pointing I mean like I think Adam

Miseri was on here who I worked with many years ago and was a designer and he's saying like hey we're you know the idea that like you're a designer and therefore you only do these things that's obviously changing right now you

can prototype you can have a much more robust and deep conversations to some extent you know you can ship code like Elena Varna was talking about being a marketer and shipping code to production so to me they're just like were these

very defined roles um and a way that things worked and we got to shed a bunch of that because things are possible now that weren't possible before and that you know like when you listen to

Minutiae's story so so much of what she's talking about is like the only form of journalism used to be like sitting in a newsroom employed by you know some giant news corporation like

you think about journalism today like everybody's a journalist like Substack and part of what she talked about is like the crazy thing is your relationship to the business model. Like

again, it used to be a paycheck and now it's like every journalist is an entrepreneur. I just can imagine a lot

entrepreneur. I just can imagine a lot of those transformations in tech, but you have to be willing to break down all the walls and start asking the questions of like fundamentally what is journalism

fundamentally what is design like fundamentally what is product management which by the way is a question that we all should have been asking for many many years because it looks really different at different country companies you know and I feel like that should be

true of every single person which is like what is the value of all these different roles when you strip away a lot of the stuff that we've built up and then what might it look like, you know, in five or 10 years.

Here's the big question, Molly, that I think a lot of people are wondering. Are

there any Legos you should not give away that you should resist giving away?

Which is a radical departure from your [laughter] advice over the many years.

Totally. I know as we were preparing for this um I was realizing that's like the biggest difference like when people again so the questions I get asked a lot

like both online and when I give speeches and stuff like one of them is have you ever regretted giving a Lego like do you ever is there something you shouldn't give away and in the in the

context of sort of like the rapid scale company where opportunity is flying at you and getting dumped on your head my answer is no give them the away like you you cannot often imagine what is coming next. Like you can't always

design the future and it's not always clear. Sometimes you are genuinely

clear. Sometimes you are genuinely giving away the known and stepping into the unknown. Um but it has basically

the unknown. Um but it has basically always been a good idea in every example. I've seen both personal

example. I've seen both personal experience and you know everyone I've worked with and coached over many many years in AI land. I think we got to caveat this. Like I think there are some

caveat this. Like I think there are some Legos that shouldn't be given away. um that the robots like

both like don't deserve and like that we should hold on to. And I think that is like one of the things that's starting to show up in this conversation around AI slop is like um there's just some

work that shouldn't be outsourced. Like

my fervent hope for AI is that it lets us do less of the things we shouldn't have been doing in the first place and more of the things that you know humans

are best in the world at, right? Like um

anybody that's RI ridden in a Whimo has this experience of like whoa this is crazy. Humans shouldn't be driving. Like

crazy. Humans shouldn't be driving. Like

driving is fundamentally just like code and systems and we're really bad at [laughter] we're really bad at being automated. Like we don't stop at the red

automated. Like we don't stop at the red lights. You know what I mean? Uh so I

lights. You know what I mean? Uh so I think like what are the what are the things that we're uniquely suited to do?

Those are the things we should hold on to. And some of that is inside this slop

to. And some of that is inside this slop conversation which is things that require judgment, right? Things that

require like again to the CEOs that are asking AI for a strategy and then copying and pasting it and sending it to their company like no like that is fundamentally something that a human

brain that you as a CEO of your company need to own, right? And I think things that require trust like that are you know fundamental to relationships like

we should not be outsourcing these things to robots because well for any number of reasons I think you know things where you don't even if you don't

know the definition of good how can you give it to your summer intern you know like if if you don't understand uh what quality is like you can't outsource that

yet. So those are just examples for me.

yet. So those are just examples for me.

I bet you have some too. But that to me that is one of the biggest like things I've been thinking about lately is like as of today I think there's some stuff we just shouldn't give away you know and

breaking news. That's like what a

breaking news. That's like what a departure from from this how many years ago did you write this? 13 years.

Yeah. 13.

Wow. That's um that's something that's a sign of the change we're living through that now there's some Hold on to some of them. [laughter]

Yeah. So interesting. There's a few thoughts I had here while you were talking like this is almost a discussion around what should AI do? Where do you want AI to be involved and where you not

want it involved? One framework I've loved is this idea of you want AI kind of in the middle of stuff. you want to be at the top like coming up just like here's kind of where we want to go and

here's the idea here's the what I'm thinking and then AI does a bunch of stuff and then you review iterate until it's done sandwich the AI sandwich Lenny

the human sandwich yeah dude oh man okay we're getting there we're getting a metaphor answer the other is something Tara I just thought of as you were talking so

Tara shared this really good perspective that humans are going to ne are going be necessary to to help guide us towards

the world. We want to have a product we

the world. We want to have a product we want to build versus the most optimal AI version. I think as a longtime Airbnb

version. I think as a longtime Airbnb person, uh, no, nothing personal, but Booking.com, if you've seen it, very different experience than Airbnb.

Booking.com, their whole philosophy, let's optimize the out of every second of interaction. So, it's just all these upsells and pressure and stress.

Just like, "Oh my god, only one spot left. You have five seconds left. Just

left. You have five seconds left. Just

book a 100 times. 100 people book it."

It's just like stressful.

It's so stressful, but so effective. You

go there, you're like, "Oh I got to book this right now."

You're like, I didn't even know I was booking it, but I booked it. [laughter]

I'm going to Japan. There's only one spot left.

But it's so good. It's like so effective at getting you to book uh booking.com appropriate, but and it worked and it's doing great as a business. So, you know, good idea. Good stuff, guys. Uh, Airbnb

good idea. Good stuff, guys. Uh, Airbnb

has always been we don't want to become that. We want it to feel really nice, to

that. We want it to feel really nice, to have a great experience, feel feel good.

Um, so I think that's that's a big part of the answer as you were talking made me realize is humans are there to guide towards what the world we want.

Yeah. And to some extent where you're talking about is taste, you know, that like there is a big difference between something that's okay and something that's phenomenal. I think it's even

that's phenomenal. I think it's even beyond taste just a I think it's like a vision. It's like what is your vision of

vision. It's like what is your vision of where this should be? Because you could say, you know, people at booking.com, they have taste for a specific type, you know, it's like a different kind of taste.

But it's like, yeah, what is what do you want? What do you want to be?

want? What do you want to be?

What do you want the world to look like?

I like that. I'm into that.

Yeah. I also just think like we got to accept that at least for the moment like this is a bunch of interns, you know?

This is a bunch of junior employees. And

like if you're if you're outsourcing your vision or the future of the world to a bunch of summer interns, like woof.

like we got problems, you know. So, like

I think I that really like the human brain is powerful at a lot of things. We

are powerful at a lot of things. You

individually are phenomenal at a set of things. Like do not outsource that. Like

things. Like do not outsource that. Like

you can enable it, you can amplify it to use your data, but don't outsource it to these weird robots that you know are effectively summer interns.

The trick is as it gets better, can you hold on to things you want? You know,

there's like parts of our job we love.

Like engineers used to like, you know, in like a lot of engineers used to love to sit there and kind of write our code, I think. And I wonder if you can hold

I think. And I wonder if you can hold out and just like, no, I love this. I'm

not going to let AI take this on.

Yeah. I have two reactions to that because I've been thinking about it a bunch uh since I had that conversation with that engineer. Like the first is like will there be a a sort of like

whiplash back? Like you see this in art,

whiplash back? Like you see this in art, you see this in a lot of things actually you see in a lot of different parts of tech where like the trend is like all AI everything AI will there be like the

handmade like somebody was talking to me about like AI is going to make all this art and but does doesn't that increase the value of like true humanmade art you know that you know it was made by a human that you know it was crafted by

hand like I have that same question I'm not an engineer so I I'm not trying to to say this but like will something show back up where the value of human written

code or something like that suddenly gets valuable again or trendy.

[laughter] Um so I'm curious about that.

Um because I've seen those whiplashes enough times in life that um it's hard sometimes to know like what's a trend and what's permanent particularly in this state.

Um, but I guess the other thing that I think about a little bit is like yes, you loved that and yes, you were extraordinary at it and that is amazing

and we should grieve it. We should

grieve that maybe that's going away and you know there's this guy Chip Connelly.

What am I saying? You know him well who I yeah he's coming on work life soon and I loved the conversation with him.

He was talking about like midlife but he was saying like sometimes you need to throw a funeral for things. Do you know what I mean? And I was like, "Yeah, man.

Sometimes you need a The funeral is there for a reason." Um, so like, let's take a minute and mourn what was, but then let's ask what could be like what could you love that way again? What

could you be extraordinary at that way again in this new world if the robots are doing X, Y, and Z? And I think both things can be true. Like you can be

really sad about what you've lost and there can be opportunity in what's coming. Um, but we got to be able we got

coming. Um, but we got to be able we got to make space for both, you know, and I think sometimes we're not allowing the grief because uh we're just like just get excited about the future people.

Such a powerful way of thinking about it. Just accepting it is going to change

it. Just accepting it is going to change and just like grieving it. That was

nice. That was a nice world I had.

I miss it.

Maybe I didn't appreciate it as much as I should have.

Totally.

but then not fighting the change that is coming. And I love this idea of just

coming. And I love this idea of just like coming back to the original idea of the Legos concept is being comfortable with ch your job changing and knowing

it'll almost surely be okay and growth comes from trying letting go and and that kind of stuff. Another thought I had as I'm thinking about this, something I've been noticing. So, you

know this whole like hacking this like open AI model trying to hack into hugging face and the swarm of thousand agents just coordinating without anyone knowing just like we will solve this very impossible problem by

interns. [laughter]

interns. [laughter] Very very very uh motivated interns.

Yeah, exactly.

I love how motivated this AI is to like solve the problem. Yeah, I'm gonna uh the good news I'm feeling there's always this question of we talked about this in the last podcast this idea of are we

going to be in a slow takeoff or a fast takeoff. Are we going to get to an AI

takeoff. Are we going to get to an AI that just accelerates to this extremely super intelligent and then we are in big trouble because we have can't control it or are we going to be in the slow takeoff where we kind of watch it

develop and we catch it as it's doing that stuff like we did with this hacking incident. Feels to me like we're

incident. Feels to me like we're definitely in the slow takeoff moment.

It feels like every of these like, "Oh shit." We're just like, "Okay, look, we

shit." We're just like, "Okay, look, we got it. We see it. We're evolving. We're

got it. We see it. We're evolving. We're

learning." Obviously, there's always this fear. Okay. But until it hits this

this fear. Okay. But until it hits this uh self reinforcement loop that trains itself and then it becomes super intelligent, for sure, maybe it'll

happen. Feeling right now it's not on

happen. Feeling right now it's not on track to do that. And so that feels nice to feel like, okay, it's not going to your job's not going to go away tomorrow. we have time to adapt and

tomorrow. we have time to adapt and learn and see how all this goes and it's not as crazy as people thought it might be.

Well, and I think that is really important to name, you know, because there was maybe more like three or four months ago or six months ago than there

is now. But but there is this feeling of

is now. But but there is this feeling of being left behind, you know, and there was a really strong narrative out there that was like you're you're too late.

You're already too late. You know what I mean? like um if you're not automating

mean? like um if you're not automating every single part of your life and managing 26 agents and I don't even know you know like um that you're behind and

every single conversation I have with every leader every manager at you know all of the big labs every company is like we are early this is like whatever

sports ball game you want to be in like this is inning one period one like yard one um We're early and the the future is ours

to shape. You know, it's yours. Like you

to shape. You know, it's yours. Like you

can um my friend Max Mullen said like the distance from beginner to expert is really short. Um and and I think that

really short. Um and and I think that goes again to the fear narrative where I'm just like we need to be encouraging people to be part of shaping the future, not just making them terrified of it.

And I feel like that is on all of us, you know, to some extent. Um but to it is a slow takeoff

extent. Um but to it is a slow takeoff and it isn't like the future is next day next next month like it is it's going to take years to really understand what

this new tool this new technology all these fun interns can actually do and and also what they're best at. Um, I

think that is a really powerful message because it helps people feel like, oh, okay, like I am part of this, not like sort of holding on for dear life while being dragged, you know, by a plane

that's taking off at 100 miles an hour.

I completely agree. My last podcast conversation, I don't know when will come out when, is is about this fear of the permanent underclass that if you don't catch up, if you're not on top of this, you're going to be left behind. I

think there is definitely a part of that in a sense of many companies are doing extremely well and people that have joined those companies are going to be very successful and some companies aren't and there's this like whole other

discussion around this the socioeconomic divide growing significantly in the world and just what what that causes in a world where there are many wealthy people many more than there have ever existed that's its own thing we don't

need to get all into that well I hope you do okay many episodes on that someday Lenny like I think it's but I it is another area where I'm like I'm not sure we know what's real yet,

you know? I think it's obviously like

you know? I think it's obviously like one of the most important conversations, but like what is real and like what is the future actually going to look like to me? Like the stories out in the

to me? Like the stories out in the world, they're not real yet. Like we

don't know. Um

it's true.

And I I think that's important to name.

Oh man, that's a that's a big big topic.

The the interesting part you mentioned there's that I wanted to follow thread on is this idea of you're not behind. Uh

what really helped me see this is uh Ian Silber, head of design at OpenAI, was on the podcast recently and he made this really good point. He's like this is the best time in history to be a designer.

If you just came in fresh as a new grad into design and just become really you just start with all these tools that designers have now. You can accelerate

so quickly and learn to do design faster than anyone's ever learned to do design.

And I feel that with like Rockbot recently came out. There's all these like skills people have built over time with like codecs and cloud code. Like I

I'm such a pro with all these tools and now it's just the tools are getting so much smarter. You don't need a lot of

much smarter. You don't need a lot of the scaffolding that people have built over time. Like if someone were to start

over time. Like if someone were to start fresh today and try Grockbot or even in codeex like you don't need to have spent years being on top of all of the news

and all of the uh updates to it. you

could just dive right in and build as much as people that have been on it for a long time can build. I feel like the actual main skill to build, something I've been thinking about, I tweeted this, but I feel like it didn't get

enough traction because I think it's very important. I feel like the biggest

very important. I feel like the biggest skill to build right now is when you're about to do something to ask yourself, can AI help me with this thing?

Because once you get good at that and I've been getting I that it's like I think about the stimulus and response kind of thing with meditation like you create more space between stimulus and response if you learn to be aware of

what's going on outside. feel like you need to insert can AI help me with this which sounds like dirty and like what the hell why would you want AI but I feel like that's a really new skill

because then you can start as these tools get better you can start to leverage them in all these different ways that I think is what separates a lot of people right now like oh totally and I um you know it goes to that point

about the walls like I think those of us that have been around a long time and there's a way that things were done right there's a way that product was built there's like um all these ways,

right? Those are walls. They're walls

right? Those are walls. They're walls

that are old. And like part of what we need to do and I think part of what you're saying is like you're actually a little bit in as an at an advantage if you don't know those walls exist, right?

Like if you approach the world as if like you know engineers didn't have a different role from X or Y or Z or like this is the way things are done. there

is an advantage to like being able to say what if like what if I just did it or what you know and to just try and to your point to always think like hey like

what's the best use of my time and then what you know could an agent or a robot do for me and I think that's like partially the point about the learners right like if you're able to shed the

sort of things you think you know and lean into like the possibility and the first principles thinking which I know you have a great article about too like that that I think is going to define the

future. Those are going to be the people

future. Those are going to be the people that are going to shape what this thing looks like.

Yeah. There's also a thread here around ambition that's been coming up a lot in the podcast kind of connect.

Yeah. This idea that now that it's so easy to do whatever you want, just describe it and it's built.

The thing that we need to in addition to asking ourselves, can I help me with this thing?

H what's kind of the like how do I be more ambitious with this idea because the tools can now just do so much and they're just like waiting for you to tell me something more ambitious than that like that's all you got for me and

we're not human nature doesn't like we're not used to end product teams and business just like thinking about the most ambitious version of a thing we're thinking about MVP and what's the quickest way to get this out and now

feels like the push is how do we be think big what's like the hardest thing we can ask this a to do because it may actually just achieve out of one ask.

Yeah. And I'd also nudge on the idea that like, yeah, you can just like type something into existence, but one of the other questions you need to ask yourself is like, is it good? Do you know what I

This is like the the slop and the accountability thing, which is like, and if ambition is wrapped up in like how do I build something phenomenal that's going to endure, like that I'm

interested in. If it's just like how do

interested in. If it's just like how do I make more and put it out in the world? Like one of my questions, this is

world? Like one of my questions, this is really frontier Lenny is like what is the AI slop version of startups? Like

are we about to see a ton of companies just shipping stuff out into the world that's going to last for like six or 12 months and then just disappear or get irrelevant? Like

definitely.

So, okay, great. That doesn't sound fun.

like how can you be the pioneer of the enduring thing the thing that's going to still be around in five years you know that's going to matter that's going to be great um not just exist and again it

goes to the difference between just like productivity right like I built a thing and what is good like what is actually worth it what's worth other people's time yeah I think that's a big differentiating opportunity right now

instead of just shipping the thing fast it's what's like a very good version of this thing and and people see that they're like oh wow this is different.

Yeah, exactly. I think that this goes to the point of like what will matter when it comes to human touch, you know, and I I think a lot of that is going to come down to like the question of like what

is good and what is worth it and what endures.

Is there anything that we haven't touched on that uh we should before we try to summarize maybe some key lessons from this free freewheeling

conversation? Well, the one thing I just

conversation? Well, the one thing I just wanted to say is like I was thinking yesterday because of a conversation I was having is like what

what do I want every manager or leader out there to know, you know? Um because

I think the world of the IC is honestly a little more clear like you know you are you are more productive and you have all this this power and and agency

around um building and the world that feels very hard to me right now is the world of the managers and the leaders because so much is changing so fast.

It's a little bit hard to know what to tell people. It's a little bit hard to

tell people. It's a little bit hard to know like what your team should look like, what matters, what doesn't matter, you know, all that. And so

I [snorts] guess like I wanted to say a couple of things to the managers and leaders out there if you'll give me the sec. Like the first is like understand

sec. Like the first is like understand that you're a role model, you know, and that what you do and how you behave is essentially showing your team um what

good looks like. And that means that how you use AI trickles down, but also how you sit in this moment, like how you show up. And for me, what I want a

show up. And for me, what I want a little more space for in the world is to be able to acknowledge what this change feels like. Um, I hope there's more

feels like. Um, I hope there's more managers out there because of this conversation talking about grief and talking about the emotions that come with change and talking about how hard

this is for people. Um, I think that acknowledging what this rate of change does to people's brains and psychologies, like it just honestly even acknowledging it makes it easier for

people. Like I said, I swear to God

people. Like I said, I swear to God that's most of what the Legos article did is just tell people, hey, that thing that you're feeling, other people have felt it before you and it hasn't meant that everything is going to hell in a

hand basket. You know, it's meant, oh,

hand basket. You know, it's meant, oh, you're going through a lot of change really, really fast. Um, and it's scary and hard. So the more that like leaders

and hard. So the more that like leaders can be talking about that, I think the more sane everyone's going to feel and less alone, you know, knowing that like

someone at XYZ company is feeling the same way as you makes a difference. Um,

and I I guess the last thing I just say is like I think everyone owns this to some extent, but managers and leaders more so. like

more so. like we need to hold on to the definition of like accountability and what good means.

Like I think that's part of the role modeling like what is right to give away to AI and what do we still as humans and people

and workers need to own. Like we're

going to have to role model that and we're going to have to create standards for that. Um so that goes to your own

for that. Um so that goes to your own behavior but it also goes to how you lead and how you talk about it. Like I

Clay put out like this beautiful AI writing policy a couple um weeks ago I think it was and it's so badass because it's literally just talking about being

accountable for what you ship out in the world and being accountable for what good is regardless of how you made it.

And for today to me like that feeling of treating AI as like a a junior intern and realizing that it's fundamentally just a tool to get work

done. But what matters is like the work

done. But what matters is like the work is still done mostly by the humans and the human brains and we got to take care of the humans and we got to help them figure out how to navigate this wild

wild west that we are in.

I'm really glad you added that. It

connects to another really interesting insight from the survey, which is that the the one thing that you can actually change to increase people's happiness right now at work is their manager.

That's the strongest lever for happiness at work. You can actually do something

at work. You can actually do something about it. All this other AI stuff you

about it. All this other AI stuff you can't do a ton about. That's one. And so

it's and man, and most people's managers are not good according to the survey also. So it's

also. So it's none of this is surprising. So

[laughter] taking care of the managers is kind of a just a reminder that that's you have a lot of leverage there as well.

Yeah. Which by the way is like there are trends inside of bigger companies to get rid of management like to get rid of whole management layers and I think it is a huge mistake. Like I think it is

going to end up biting people in the ass long term because I see no signs right now that management matters less. If anything to your point

matters less. If anything to your point I think it matters more. Um and uh you know again I get the efficiency and the cost savings and all that but I think like at what cost you know what cost

that you can't predict. Um so I it really resonates that management is almost more important because it makes people feel seen like that's what a great manager does is make people feel seen and supported and help them figure

out whatever mess they're in. You know

it's gonna be so interesting to see if there's a backlash towards that like like you know people have had great managers they're they're rarely going to be like I wish I had no manager. You

know, there's it's like people with bad managers, which a lot of people are like, "I don't need this person, but they're they're so useless."

Yeah. They're in my way. They are a wall. No, totally. I mean, I always say

wall. No, totally. I mean, I always say you only get like a couple good managers in your life, and when you find one, hold on to it for dear life [laughter] because you're only going to get like two.

Oh, man. Scary. I've never heard that advice before. [laughter]

advice before. [laughter] Uh, anything else that you wanted to share or touch on?

No, I feel like we I mean, it'll be fascinating. We'll reflect on this in

fascinating. We'll reflect on this in six months and see what happen.

That's what I was thinking.

We're in the middle of it right now.

It's like Elizabeth Stone had a really good way of framing it. We're in the storming phase.

Yeah, dude.

And then there's the norming phase.

I know.

Like I have no idea what that actually means, but it sounds right. Storming,

norming, and Yeah.

Well, there's storming, norming, and then there's performing. But the other thing that nobody tells you about that framework is that you can go backwards.

Like you often go through cycles. This

is like a it's a model on team development and [snorts] um you go through storming and then you go through norming and then you go performing, but you can slip from performing into storming and I feel like we're going to

see a lot of that.

Oh boy. Yeah. It's it's like very cool to be living through this history, right? It's like easy to take for

right? It's like easy to take for granted just how this is like it's like we're living through, you know? It's funny you say that cuz

you know? It's funny you say that cuz that's actually something I else I always talk about when I do these LEGO speeches is like being inside of a rapidly growing company feels like being

inside of a tornado. Do you know what I mean? It's like it is so

mean? It's like it is so absorbing and I don't know, shit's just flying at you at all times and everything's changing all the time and it is so easy in that state to lose the

forest for the trees. like you can get really bogged down or stuck in like obsessing about this person or this thing or feeling undervalued. And a lot

of what I say to folks in those speeches is like you got to zoom out. You got to think about what is the story that I want to tell on the other side of this.

Like I want to, you know, it's less about your title or all these things than it is about I was here and I helped build this. I talk about it as like a

build this. I talk about it as like a giant Lego sculpture. So it's like you're like let's pretend it's a tiger.

You're gonna you're gonna leave here with this incredible story, right? You

built the feet and then you like were part of building the face and then you rebuilt the butt three times and then you realized it like wasn't just a tiger, it was like a whole zoo. Like

that is what it feels like to be inside of um these rapidly changing companies.

And I wonder, you know, as you were saying that, what I was thinking about is gosh, imagine the stories we're going to be telling in five or 10 years. Like

I was there when here's what I thought that was right. Here's what I thought that was wrong. I was the first person to say this. Oh man, I was so wrong about that. Like you are living through

about that. Like you are living through history. Um that you will be telling

history. Um that you will be telling stories about uh to whatever you know generation of new grads shows up in 10 years. Um

years. Um what do you want your story your part of that story to be? You know how are you going to tell that story? I think there is something about zooming out and realizing like it is hard and there is a

lot of change going on, but there is a crazy fun story that we're all going to be telling on the other side of this. We

just don't know what it is yet.

Hopefully not just talking to our AGI.

Tell me more. Tell me more, Molly.

Totally. That's so fascinating.

Yeah, exactly. [laughter]

You're so smart.

Oh, man.

Okay, what if we do just like some bullet points like takeaways for folks?

just like here's a few kind of key things to keep in mind coming from this giving away your Legos framework. Uh see

where your mind goes and then maybe I'll add a few for my notes.

Okay.

To me like most important is change is scary and hard but that doesn't mean it's bad. That means you have to embrace

it's bad. That means you have to embrace the emotions that come with it. But you

also have to lean into it and you you should let go. Like yes, it's scary and yes, it feels like there might not be anything waiting on the other side, but

what's the alternative? To hold on to this thing that might be slowly dying, like that's not safe either. So leaning

into change feels like to me the most important thing for folks to take away.

Um, I think as part of that, I would just say like grief is part of this and sometimes grief needs a funeral or do what you got to do, you know, to like be sad. Let your teams be sad. Let the

sad. Let your teams be sad. Let the

people around you make space for that because like there change with change comes shedding things um that you loved

and that sucks. Um, I think like one of the other things that feels like it really came out, Lenny, is like there is opportunity here. And we got to like

opportunity here. And we got to like start ignoring or muting or whatever some of this fear narrative. Um, because right now the

narrative. Um, because right now the data isn't saying like there are no jobs for you. The data is saying like

for you. The data is saying like actually there's going to be a lot of opportunity created by this.

Particularly if you're willing to lean into reinvention, right? what not what was the form of your job two years ago but what might it be in five years um

what else I guess like breaking down walls is the other thing I was thinking but what what what came to your list well there's the minut kind of perspective of imagine your job isn't going to go away imagine your job will

continue but be different yeah exactly I love I just it it was a real mind change for me when she said that because I was like whoa like yeah

What what is engineering going to look like in five years?

Right. It's not going to go away. It's

going to be some different.

Maybe there'll be more of it. Like

journalism, there's more journalists out there for better or for worse.

Yeah. And so far there's more more uh PMs, more product more um engineers.

Yeah.

Like so far that's going well. Another

kind of takeaway is just be deliberate about what you do what you give to AI.

And there's a few ways to think about it. One is just like what is AI going to

it. One is just like what is AI going to do a terrible job at? Don't do that.

What is it you love that you don't want it to take for you? How do you avoid like brain rot and just overlying an AI?

It's like there's a few things there just like AI is not gonna don't give everything to AI.

Yeah. And I think also for a lot of us acknowledging that AI is not this like super intelligent being. It's like it is much more like an intern. Um and that means like literally think about it as

an intern. Like what would you give to

an intern. Like what would you give to an intern and what would you never give them?

I think that's the core of it.

Yeah. And I feel like well I feel like we said this but like there just may be some things we should never give away and that is genuinely different like

give away your Legos but like be discerning about what you should keep and what should be human and what humans are here for. Like I think that's part of the like conversation for the next fa

you know however many years is like what are humans uniquely good at and what I think about there just like very concretely in my mind is be the person that guides what you're doing to

a place to your the vision you have of the world you want not just the simplest thing not the thing that AI is kind of pointing to just like what do you actually want and that's kind of our job for a while

yeah and like at the individual level how can this new tool this unintelligent intern that you've hired, like let you do more of what you love, you know, let you bring more joy into the world. Let

you lean into the things that you love doing. How can it amplify you? Um,

doing. How can it amplify you? Um,

instead of feeling like all you're doing is losing things to it.

What a moment in time we're in, Molly, right now.

Trying to figure all this out.

[laughter and gasps] We're going to rewatch this in a year or two and make fun of ourselves.

Yeah, we're going to be We nailed it. We

got everything right.

Perfect.

Visionaries.

Oh, man. Well, with that, Molly, is there anything else? Anything you want to plug? Anything you want to point

to plug? Anything you want to point people to? Anything you want to tell

people to? Anything you want to tell people about that you're up to that might be interesting, useful to them?

Well, I'll say two things. Like, first,

like um I get a lot of wisdom, but also a lot of support for this kind of conversation from the community and glue club. And I think um if you're a leader

club. And I think um if you're a leader listening to this and feeling like lonely and a little bit unsupported like that is find a community whether it's glue club or another one where you can

talk about this because I do think like leaning on each other to learn like what's real and what's not and what's valuable and what's not like so much of what we're doing in glue club is being like is anybody else seeing this like and that that is really valuable like

you can do it in in Lenny land as well like but just get out there and talk about what's real and what's not don't just be stay in a sad lonely hole. But

the second thing I wanted to say, Lenny, is thank you for making space for this.

I think it's important like there's so much space right now for the like what should I do and what you know what skills should I get and what course should I take and you know what tool should I try next who's hot today but

like we aren't talking enough about the human side of this and what it feels like to be going through this for everyone. And so I'm grateful that you

everyone. And so I'm grateful that you reached out and we talked about making space to talk about this because I think hopefully people will leave feeling a little more like sane and like, oh, everybody else is feeling a little crazy

right now, too. And there's lots of people out there grieving and like that's okay. Like that's normal. So,

that's okay. Like that's normal. So,

thank you, Lenny.

Thank you, Molly. I think of these I have a a term for these sorts of episodes. I call them Trojan horse

episodes. I call them Trojan horse episodes [laughter] where people come for like all this tactical concrete. I

need to how do I use AI in this way? How

do I become a better PM? And then I get there's these like you get therapy important episodes that slip right in.

Yeah, exactly. You're like, "Oh, okay. I

didn't know I needed that, but that was very helpful."

very helpful." Yeah.

So, well, welcome to the Trojan horse smuggling in.

I love it.

Very timely with the Odyssey these days, huh?

Yeah, dude.

All right, Molly. Well, thank you so much for being here.

Yeah. Thanks for having me, Lenny.

Bye, everyone.

Bye, everybody.

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