My Conversation with Patrick O'Shaughnessy | David Senra

You have this almost obsession with finding talented but not well-known or relatively unknown people.

>> Mhm.

>> And then you essentially spend a lot of time talking to them, developing relationships, and then putting all of your resources behind that person.

>> Yeah.

>> What is going on there?

Well, uh, for how my personality is wired, that is the most exciting possible thing to do because it means I get to learn about a person and whatever

they're doing before other people do.

And I like that. I like being at the frontier of what's going on and learning things that aren't widely known. I just

I just enjoy that. I I read so much and have spent my whole life just as a constant learning type person. So to

find something fresh and new is very exciting to me and you can usually do that with people like this. And then

I've just learned about myself that by far my favorite thing in the world is championing other people. It's just what I enjoy doing. If I look back on my

life, the the sort of like wins that I've had, the the things that if you were to write like a Wikipedia article about me would be like the accolades or the accomplishments.

I don't care about those things. I don't

think about them when they happened.

They didn't do anything for me emotionally or otherwise. Um, for

whatever reason, I just that's just not what I enjoy. But when your success happens or when many other people that I and my team have championed have a win,

I feel that deep in my like soul and heart and gut in a way that is just more gratifying to me than anything else in the world. And this extends to my kids,

the world. And this extends to my kids, my wife, my friends, my, you know, the CEOs of companies that we've invested in. Um, people that we have on on our

in. Um, people that we have on on our show that we tell the world about.

That's the repeated thing that I I love.

And I also kind of like picking sides. I

like saying I like this person and and and by extension, I like them more than the other available options in this field or this industry or whatever. And

I just get tremendous joy out of that.

So now I'm architecting my life to just be able to do as much of that as possible. And and uh I hope I get to do

possible. And and uh I hope I get to do it for a long time.

>> I screenshotted this text. This is like many years ago. Somebody was asking me, I can't remember who it was now, but they were asking me like what Patrick is like. And I was like, well, positive sum

like. And I was like, well, positive sum is definitely like a way to describe him. I was like, and he doesn't do

him. I was like, and he doesn't do things for money. Like that doesn't mean he's not commercial. Like he makes a lot of money. He's going to continue to make

of money. He's going to continue to make a lot of money, but that's like not the driver behind it. Let me go back to like the one of the craziest days of my life has directly involved you, right? Like I

was like in the middle of this like five and a half year struggle of like being obsessed with something I know I truly cared and thought was really good, but the ex the

external world was like no like nobody gives a [ __ ] about what you're doing, David. And you know, I kept doing it and

David. And you know, I kept doing it and we have a mutual friend in Sam Hinky who's gonna get keep getting annoyed because I bring him up on every podcast I go on because like >> he's deserving of the mentions. the two

episodes he did with you like especially the the one about like find your people I think is that the I go back I go back to that one all the time and the notes that he says in there and like one of the things I think about all the time

which again I'm not an investor but I want like access and I want deep relationships with people very high quality people and I and it's just like he's like people are power law and the best ones change everything and so once

you actually see that you are very almost like ruthless with who you let have access to you and I think I again very ruthless and continue to be ruthless because of like I what I'm you

know kind of chasing after but I have like no followers on Twitter at all and just like tweeting into the oblivion like no one gave a [ __ ] what I'm doing

and one day this is why it's like one one of the first things that I think speaks volumes about you and how you actually live your life and like I think you've now leaned into this more over the last like four years that we've been

talking and I'm like see a bunch notifications on Twitter. I'm like, I don't get notifications on Twitter.

[laughter] Like, what is this? Uh, the only time there used to be the same guy that had my name and he was like a Brazilian MMA fighter. So, when he would fight,

fighter. So, when he would fight, [laughter] >> Oh, that's funny.

>> Yeah. It's like, but all the tweets are in Portuguese, so I don't know what they're they're talking about. Just not

about my podcast. And I almost remember verbatim. I should go and find see how

verbatim. I should go and find see how much I get the the the text inside the tweet correct, but you're like, I never find new podcasts to listen to. And you

know, that's like the best. It's like

people don't know. It's like insanely one of the most insanely valuable audiences in the world. If you could like sketch out the average net worth of listeners to this. It's just like mindboggling.

And and we're about to see that in action with this story. And you're like, I never find new podcasts to listen to.

I think David Center's founders podcast is excellent. Uh you should listen to

is excellent. Uh you should listen to it. And you linked to an episode on

it. And you linked to an episode on Estee Lauder, which is one of my favorite ones.

>> I love that episode. Yeah.

>> And you sent me a link. And so at the time it was a paywalled podcast cuz I couldn't figure out the business model because I had no listeners. And you know back then I would get uh you know an email every time you had a new

subscriber. There was not many emails

subscriber. There was not many emails coming in every day. I could count them on two hands you know and I was like first thing I did well one the next day I log into my email and

it's just a >> whoosh all the way down just like no no no no no. But that is such an unusual instinct if I'm being honest. Like I

don't think I would have done that. What

the hell was going on there? You didn't

see it as a competition. You didn't What What was What was happening?

>> The first thing that flashes to my head is, you know, in my show, I always ask people the same question at the end of what's the kindest thing anyone's ever done for you. Some person on Twitter or something went and compiled every

answer. or there's 500 answers or

answer. or there's 500 answers or whatever and categorized them and like made a pie chart of like what people say and something like twothirds of the answer to this question were the same

which was the kindest thing was some person made a bet on me first answering the question before I deserved it or like they saw something in me that maybe

I didn't even see in myself they they bet on me before others would and that was the answer to the the kindest thing and when I was 26 six, I I became very

interested in uh all of the I I studied philosophy early in life and I've always been interested in that stuff, but I became really interested in the religious texts, like all the world's

religious texts. And I was I was kind of

religious texts. And I was I was kind of uh I was in a weird spot in life. I kind

of hadn't found anything to do yet. I

wasn't that good at anything. And I was searching I was always searching for like what the hell should I do? What the

hell's the point of all this? And I

found this passage in the uppanads which as a book is probably the most important book to me. And the upupanads is this collection of stories from many of thousands of years ago that were oral passed down orally through through

generations and then eventually written down. And I remember getting stuck by

down. And I remember getting stuck by this on this one passage that literally felt like someone hit me in the face with a hammer. And there there's a a line in this passage that basically says

something like like those who feed the hungry protect me. those who don't are consumed by me. And it it it just felt like a there was like a moment of

understanding that happened in my head that up until that point from teenage you know middle of teenage I was this nice sweet boy and then I got kind of hard hardened and um went through a

period of life that was tough and uh it just it like woke me up that the whole point of this is to help other people.

That's it. That's the entire point of this existence. And from that point

this existence. And from that point forward, that's been my worldview. And

so I think it's interesting that like that's probably the thing that most informed my worldview. And then the the answer to this question that I love to ask is predominantly someone bet on me.

And like I told you before, the thing I love more than anything is like seeing the potential in somebody before everyone else and then helping the world see what I see. Like if I could do one

thing over and over and over again the rest of my life, it would be audition people to see if there's something that I see that no one else sees and then help foster that and show everyone else

what I think I see in a way that can be impactful on that person's life, which is what you described with our experience together. I think in the

experience together. I think in the probably hundreds I don't know thousand time thousand conversations we've had I don't think you've ever described it in such an easy to understand impactful way like you just did where it's just like

the whole point of this whole thing is just to help other people.

>> You said before you were cha some chasing something, right?

>> Yeah.

>> I'm not chasing anything. I think it might be an interesting conversation today to talk about our, you know, how how we view what we're doing in in slightly different ways. But

I have no goals. I'm not a goals person.

I I I've written essays about not having goals. Um the most read thing I ever

goals. Um the most read thing I ever wrote back when I used to do a lot of writing was about uh it was called growth without goals. And so I'm not chasing any particular thing. I don't

have a big hairy audacious goal or something like this. I don't want to put someone on Mars like Elon Mer. Um, and

I'm not to say not to say that that's a bad thing. I think some people are goal

bad thing. I think some people are goal oriented and that's awesome, but that's not me. And uh, I guess I've realized

not me. And uh, I guess I've realized that if I have a goal in the abstract sense, it's just this thing over and over and over again. There's this

amazing talk that I recommend everyone watch um, called inventing on principle.

Have you seen this?

>> Yeah. There was a talk given by a computer scientist named Brett Victor and he espouses this idea that you should find a principle that you want to

his principle was uh creators digital creators should have instant feedback with their creation. So just like if you paint something with a paintbrush you you get instant feedback. You see you

see the paint immediately. Whereas in

computer science you'd have to code over here and compile and then you'd eventually see your result. There was

this gap. And so his principle was collapse that gap. That was his life's mission. And I love that way of thinking

mission. And I love that way of thinking about finding one's life's mission is find a principle. Don't don't

necessarily have a goal, but find a principle. And my principle is like when

principle. And my principle is like when I see undiscovered talent, it is my obligation to do this thing to get to know them, to learn from them, to start introducing them to people, to start I

don't need to get anything out of it.

Like what I get out of it is the thing.

It's that's the point. Well, you're one of the few people in the world that have actually identified this organizing principle and then built a wonderful business around that. And I like the media, we've talked about this a million times, but like the media and investing

are not two separate things. They're the

exact if you actually know Patrick and what is important to him, like they are the exact same thing. It's taken me a long time to articulate that principle decade. And that's okay. Like don't

decade. And that's okay. Like don't

don't get discouraged if you don't watch Brett Victor's talk and can't can't name your principle an hour later. Like it

takes time, but you know you found your principle when it starts informing literally every decision you make every day with your time. And that's what it

does for me. And and it becomes universal. Like on my team, for example,

universal. Like on my team, for example, we're 16 people, something like that.

Now this is how I think about my team.

It's like who who can I find and see something in and bring them in and then make their career explode hopefully in an amazing way. And so it can be

investing, it can be just in friendship, it can be on your team like a good principle can be applied everywhere. And

that's why I think this idea is so powerful to do the work to find your principle for invention. And uh I have no idea where it will take us. That's

the other fun part is one of the reasons I don't like goals is I think very talented people when they set a goal, they tend to do it. And that's why goals

are interesting to lots of people is it's a great way to make progress. But I

find it unexciting because the second you set some big goal, you kind of know what you're what's going to happen because you go do it and you know the road in front of you and you have blinders on. And I don't actually like

blinders on. And I don't actually like having blinders on. I like to go everything that's ever worked for me has come out of the periphery. You know, Sam Hanky, text me about you. Like I wasn't

looking for a podcaster to promote.

>> Yeah. You were not >> you were not the uh result of some goal that I was seeking.

>> You were just something that like came out of the left field. And everything

interesting I've ever done came out of left field. And it's which is why I

left field. And it's which is why I don't keep long-term goals or short-term goals is that opportunity just I'm very open to opportunity along this principle

and and so I'm very enamored of this idea for how to live. Having Patrick as one of the first guests on my new show was very important to me because of the role that he has played in my life and the quality of the product that he puts

out. His podcast, Invest Like the Best,

out. His podcast, Invest Like the Best, has taught me so much and has made my life better in the more than seven years that I've been listening to it. Patrick

and I both have a deep multi-year partnership with the presenting sponsor of this podcast, Ramp. And I think there's a lesson in there that is applicable to anyone who's trying to make something great in the world. The

founders of RAMP know, just like Steve Jobs knew that you always bet on talent.

The founders of RAMP wanted to be associated with the podcast that they listen to, enjoyed, and benefited from.

They wanted to bet on talent in everything that their company does. To

Steve Jobs, this was mandatory. Steve

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extraordinary people. A small group of A players can run circles around a giant team of B and C players." And so, you must build a team that pursues the A players. And this is exactly what Ramp

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At what age did you stop having goals?

>> Well, this essay that I wrote I wrote uh I'm 40 now. I wrote when I was 28 because I wrote it I wrote it on the train. I used to commute back and forth

train. I used to commute back and forth from New York City to Stanford, Connecticut.

And I was I was about to have my first child, my son Pierce. And my dad when I was 21 handed me this book of letters

that he had been writing to me since I was born. And a lot of them were when I

was born. And a lot of them were when I was like a baby, like the And I've done the same thing for my son. And it's the same pattern. There's tons of letters in

same pattern. There's tons of letters in the first couple of years. And then it gets more spaced out. And now I do one every on his birthday every year and things like this. and I'm I'm going to give him a packet of letters as well

when he turns 21. And I remember starting starting this process of wanting to write him a letter before he was born. And it gets you it got me

was born. And it gets you it got me wondering about like what is good parenting? Like what do I want to do as

parenting? Like what do I want to do as a dad? And I believe deeply in showing,

a dad? And I believe deeply in showing, not telling. Like I think maybe that's

not telling. Like I think maybe that's another reason I don't like being interviewed. It's so it's I don't like

interviewed. It's so it's I don't like telling. Um I'd rather just set an

telling. Um I'd rather just set an example. But um I I was thinking what

example. But um I I was thinking what example do I want to show Pierce and and then I don't remember my exact chain of thinking but it ended up in this idea of

of everything I just talked about. Um so

it was born of wondering like what example do I want my son to see and and emulate because I've I'm sure you've learned this about kids as well. They

don't do what you tell them. They they

do what you do. They just copy you. And

so how you behave is how you parent. And

I was thinking about that at age 28 and and and wrote this thing. Um and so that's how that's where it came from. So

right right around then is probably the first time I >> And then how long from 28 till you realize this is going to be the the simple organizing principle of how I'm going to live my life and spend my time.

>> I I I actually don't think I could have articulated the principle as I just laid it out until very recently. So I I could

have told you about the power of Brett Victor's inventing on principle starting 10 years ago or whenever I I first saw it, but I would not have been able to

articulate the principle to you cleanly.

And that's because it's hard. It's hard

to pin for whatever reason. It's really

hard to pin this down. Interestingly, I

owe I've never met Brett Victor. If he's

listening, I'd love to meet him. Uh I

owe him an enormous debt of gratitude for one of my bigger career successes which was uh I took his principle not my own but his principle of instant

feedback and applied it as the primary design principle to software that I built in my last business which worked really well. The software itself worked

really well. The software itself worked really well. the business grew a lot

really well. the business grew a lot because of the software and the software worked well because of his principle of instant feedback on choices being made by the user showing up in in this case

in a visual that described their portfolio and so I I actually before I had my own principle I stole his principle to great effect which just goes to show the power of a great principle but I couldn't have

articulated it for a really long time and I can't explain to you why that's the case I don't know >> there's a great line from Alan Watts that I always think about he's People

think that life is meant to be understood and it's like no life is meant to be experienced >> and I I find that in my own self like I do think I can't explain I like I have

like a lot of willy like fufu part of obviously see that line you'd laugh but like I have this like willy fufu part of it is just like I just go off feeling like an intuition for like a lot of things that I do and like I don't want

to have to like describe why I believe this to be true or why I want to um like pursue this path or why I think this idea is interesting. I think it's just something inside of me that like language cannot describe.

>> I don't know if it was Alan Watts that said this. Uh he was he had such a way

said this. Uh he was he had such a way with words that maybe it was him. Um it

might have been Joseph Campbell, but something to the effect of um we're not searching for the meaning of life, but for the feeling of being alive. And I

think that's correct. And I think a great uh if you play red light green light with principle as you search for your principle, I think you could do a lot worse than knowing you're on the

right path if the thing makes you feel more alive. Like if you go in the

more alive. Like if you go in the direction and people know what it's like to feel alive, they can call to mind these moments in their lives where they felt the most present and alive. And

using those as a signpost to what your principle might be or what you should be doing, I think is a really a really great thing. And that's certainly how I

great thing. And that's certainly how I I remember that line reading that line 15 years ago as well. And then starting to chase the feeling of being alive, not not a goal, but just that feeling. And

um everyone can answer this question, by the way. It's a really it's a great way

the way. It's a really it's a great way to have a conversation with someone is to kind of feel ask them where they feel this and and then also why they're not doing more of whatever the answer

happens to be which is a funny funny circumstance of humans that they kind of know what makes them feel most alive and then they don't do it most of their lives.

>> That's a very interesting question.

What's your guess on why they don't?

>> Usually it's it's it's simple which is um fear.

fear that by pursuing an original path, I have this idea that uh the best story always wins. And I sp actually spent the

always wins. And I sp actually spent the last couple of months like really trying to figure out what what what do I think best story means? And the best principles for a great story that I could come up with were originality,

hardship, and transformation.

And if you dig into originality, that one is really interesting to me because people don't pursue original past usually because they're fearful um

of the unknown because an original path by definition means it's all going to be on you and that's uncomfortable and hard. Um, and because an original path

hard. Um, and because an original path usually means leaving a very comfortable current existence in a way that's scary. And so I think

when you really drill people on why not, um, they'll give reasons that add up to I'm I'm afraid and that's hard to get over.

>> You've said to me before that you used to be a massochist for introspection.

First of all, when did that stop and then do you think that helped you find this organizing principle for your life?

>> It definitely helped me find it because I wanted to not waste life. When I was a little kid, young uh 5 years old or whatever, I had I had this just

crippling fear of death. Like I remember my mom and dad would have to like sit and hold my hand for me to fall asleep at night cuz and and the reason was I would just sit there like spiraling on

this crazy idea maybe this is why I studied philosophy that like someday I would not exist and that just freaked me out and did for decades. So that

probably kicked off this introspective period of my life where I was very curious about philosophical traditions and religious traditions and metaphysics and all this kind of stuff because I

wanted to know what the hell is the point of all this? Like what's the point? What's the meaning? What's the

point? What's the meaning? What's the

purpose? And otherwise it's just terrifying, right? That we're here for a

terrifying, right? That we're here for a blip and then gone. Just terrifying. I

try not to sit down and think about it too much. In fact, I'd like to move on.

too much. In fact, I'd like to move on.

[laughter] But that kicked off this period of yeah I wanted to understand myself and others and so I was very introspective and of course that made me want to not live a

dull life and I was very scared of just like living this train track existence.

So yeah it did help a lot but interestingly once I have clicked into I think understanding what I want to do I

don't think about it at all and now I have very little introspection left in my life. I used to be so obsessed with

my life. I used to be so obsessed with all of these personality tests and what they mean and psychology and um seeking and like all the modern methods for doing that

>> and I've I've kind of just lost not total interest but I've lost a lot of my interest in that.

>> You solve the problem that you were using it introspection was the tool and then like you don't need to use the tool once the job is done.

>> Yeah. Maybe maybe that's right.

>> You mentioned earlier that we have different approaches and then you wanted to talk about that. What do you think?

Like I'm always curious again like some of the stuff I should not say on a podcast, but um I'm always curious like people that know me well.

>> Yeah.

>> Like what is their interpretation of like their view of me that is different >> than my own? So like what do you think my organizing principle is?

>> Your organizing principle?

If yours is just helping as many people as possible and this is what life's about and then you have all these resources to do so through media and capital and relationships.

>> Just to clarify, it's not helping as many people as possible. It is trying to see enormous like not yet realized potential.

>> Okay. And my principle is that is when I do it is my obligation with nothing maybe I invest maybe maybe I end up benefiting but that's not the

point that it's my obligation to tell people about it and to help foster it into existence. Um

into existence. Um so you know important difference. Well

it took me a decade to state my organizing principle. I'm not going to

organizing principle. I'm not going to be able to name yours in a minute, but you're probably the most single-minded and devoted to what they do person that

I know in the sense that most people that have achieved uh a level of success in their field or in their job that you

have begin to branch the world when that happens pulls you into this branching exercise where you end up doing a lots of different stuff. uh and that you know you end up monetizing in different ways

or going into different lines of business or changing how you do things expanding the single-mindedness that you that you have is quite distinct from the

people that I know and um you know why are you doing it I I mean I think you've talked about this certainly in private with me but also in public about you

know you came from we came from opposite circumstances like I was I was born on proverb a real third base or sliding into home. I come from a history of

into home. I come from a history of extremely successful entrepreneurs. My

great-grandfather who had the best name ever, his name was Ignatius Alawishas Oshanaugh. Everyone called him a he was

Oshanaugh. Everyone called him a he was I think the 13th of 13 kids. He was one of the richest men in in the United States. He was an oil wildcatter. First

States. He was an oil wildcatter. First

first oil uh hole he ever drilled. I

think still pumps oil to this day in uh in the Midwest. And so he was a giant, he was broken up in the antitrust, you know, in the Rockefeller antitrust stuff around Standard Oil. And our family

takes great inspiration from him because he made this fortune. He did not give a [ __ ] about money. Uh he didn't really spend it. He gave away basically all of

spend it. He gave away basically all of it in his lifetime, mostly anonymously.

My dad tells the story about being at his funeral when my dad was 11 and all these people were there and no one knew who they were. And my dad would go up to one and be like, "Who are you?" and and

they would say,"Well, Mr. IIA, you know, I cut his hair and he put my kids through college and bought me a house or Mr. IIA did this or this this and we didn't even know where it went." And I

have benefited from this tremendous history of business success in my in and around my family forever. Whereas you

came from an op a very different set of circumstances. Our friend Sam has this

circumstances. Our friend Sam has this idea of um there's founders of businesses and there's founders of families. And I think of you as the

families. And I think of you as the founder of your family. And I think that's incredibly powerful and I think it's your greatest accomplishment that uh things repeat through the

generations. You're fond of saying the

generations. You're fond of saying the story of the father and the son, you know, are the same. And it takes tremendous um character, willpower, talent, lots of

stuff to break from that family tradition and go a new direction, which you've done, which I just think is remarkable. And I don't know if that's

remarkable. And I don't know if that's the underlying why that you refused to let your family continue to go the same direction that it had gone up until you

were born. And um you went, as Sam would

were born. And um you went, as Sam would say and we've talked about, you went searching for mentors cuz you didn't have them in your life. You found them in books and in founders. And you've

been telling everybody about it ever since. And it worked. It worked for you

since. And it worked. It worked for you to change your life. And now we know based on your work that your work is now changing other people's lives in that same way that you changed your own first, but you were the first

beneficiary of it. And so what is your principle or why? I don't know. Maybe

it's that you can you don't have to just keep going the same direction that you were given. You can break off and and

were given. You can break off and and found something new. Um I think that's pretty amazing.

>> I think there's a lot of times I I really resonate what you said when you were you found that book and you're like you know this this paragraph this sentence just like hits you with like a hammer to the face.

>> This is also like you know I use podcast for this reading mainly. It's like I think people are rushing through things too too fast. You know, I'm famous for

only listening to podcasts on one X.

Everybody's like, "Oh, you read a lot.

You must read fast." I'm like, "Yeah, 25 pages an hour fast." Like, I'm not speedreading here. I think I want

speedreading here. I think I want understanding. And like

understanding. And like I want understanding of how things actually are, not how humans say they are. And humans, not only are we lying

are. And humans, not only are we lying to ourselves constantly, which is if you're lying to yourself, like of course you're lying to other people about like why you're doing what you're doing or what you're doing uh what it is that you're doing. And this is why like

you're doing. And this is why like autobiography is a biography so much because in many cases the person's like long past dead or they're older and they're just like I'm writing this book when I'm 80. like I have no I'm not

incentivized to to lie and like here's the stuff I went through and the trouble with whatever being what kind of dad you are trouble with women trouble with business but you realize like there's nothing that you're experiencing that

somebody else hasn't already experienced and so what I want is like true understanding of like humanity as it is human nature as it is and the world that we're creating

and then I use their stories it's not really about them. It's like about you. And I

about them. It's like about you. And I

think this I don't think this has nothing to do with me. I think like when you watch a great movie, you hear a great story, you hear a great song, you're not thinking about like, oh, this happened to Taylor Swift. You're like,

oh, I had that same experience in this relationship or I went through this exact same thing. And it's like a form of understanding like I'm in the middle of this right now. We were just having

lunch upstairs and you know essentially like I'm just like in the middle of like trying to find the story that I want to tell with this book that grabbed a hold

of me for 6 months. And I told you about this is Bruce Springsteen's autobiography. I'm not I don't even

autobiography. I'm not I don't even listen to his music. And I told you about this right like right when I was like there's stuff in this book that like this dude looks like he crawled inside of my mind

>> and like especially in regards to how he views his work and the impact that it has on it's like that is not a sentence that is not a paragraph that is like that was made for me to read this at

this point and it's insanely powerful and to the point where like it's like a drug you know I I told you like right away you again I need to like give you credit. We'll go back to this drug and

credit. We'll go back to this drug and understanding because like I think this is really important about like people understanding why I want to talk to certain people and why like I was freaking adamant and like kind of pushing you on this and we rescheduled a

few times and like I wouldn't be doing this if it wasn't for you not only because the the the platform that you gave founders right the podcast then

that crazy episode that we did together which I think is like we're never like that was like lightning in the bottle it was >> it's invest like the just the the the title is passion and pain and you know

people are always like oh like did you guys sketch this out? I was like no Patrick doesn't sketch things out like that. He's like I we built a friendship.

that. He's like I we built a friendship.

I want you on the show.

Like I don't think you told me anything we're going to talk about. I do remember you texting me a few hours. We're

supposed to do it at like 10:00 a.m.

You're like hey I got pushed back. Can

you do 1 p.m.? I'm like oh no my brain only works in the morning. So I took like a quick power nap and I'm in this booth. We didn't do video, but you can

booth. We didn't do video, but you can see me. And I'm in like this phone booth

see me. And I'm in like this phone booth that I put in my house that I was the only person. These phone booths are all

only person. These phone booths are all in these offices and I had one. They

came and delivered to my house and like, you know, we've never delivered to somebody's house before. I was like, this isn't a phone booth. This is a podcast studio. This makes perfect sense

podcast studio. This makes perfect sense to me. Um,

to me. Um, >> and then we just had that conversation, you know, that was like a huge inflection point. Like that weekend that

inflection point. Like that weekend that happened after that was like one of the craziest weekends uh of my entire life.

But then you pushed me for years. You're

like, you should be recording conversations. you should be recording

conversations. you should be recording these conversations. What are you doing?

these conversations. What are you doing?

And I was like, no, no, it's distraction. I don't want to do it. I

distraction. I don't want to do it. I

don't want to do it. Um, and then, you know, I've told the story a bunch, but I think like it's really important. We're

like, I would not be doing what I'm doing right now at this very moment if we didn't have me and you had this dinner with Daniel Ek in New York. It

lasted four hours. I know you don't like when I tell you how long I talk to people.

>> This is one of David's quirks. He tells

you how long he talked to someone every time.

>> I just had this 4-hour lunch with someone.

>> Yeah. cuz I'm not interested in superficial at all. Like I met I can't tell you who it was. I just had dinner.

>> How long was it?

>> I'm going to tell you right now, but it was an incredible dinner the first time we met and you know it was unexpected uh

requested by them and 3 hours into this person's like I have told you things no one else knows about me the very first time I met them. there just I just I

have no I have no interest in the superficial and I think you have to talk for a long time because it takes a little while to get like warmed up and like feel the person out and this is why what you said earlier is so important like fewer deeper relationships dude

think about the crazy conversation which we're not going to you know relive but like me and you just had an insane 2 and 1 half hour conversation at in Tel Aviv at like 2 in the morning

>> you know that to have that level of honesty and conversation like you would have to have like years of like getting to know somebody so I do I also think you're providing people with a sort of

set of ingredients maybe through these episodes and conversations, but that it's important that people then go make their own recipe. Like you shouldn't just want to live like person XYZ. A lot

of people you cover have the same pitfalls in their lives. And one might be tempted to think those pitfalls are just inevitable byproducts of success.

But I hate that kind of thinking. I

think like screw base rates. I don't

care what the B I never care what the base rate is. Like the whole the most interesting stuff is outliers by definition. So I don't care what

definition. So I don't care what happened to everybody else. I don't care if you know there's common pitfalls.

Like I think it's important that people take their make their own recipe from the ingredients that that you've offered them from all these amazing and interesting lives that you've studied and you're just doing that for yourself.

Like that's that's been the search.

>> I think it is for myself. You are

interested in other people and frankly in a way that I am not. And I've seen it's like very real and it happens every time we're with other people together.

I'm like, "Oh, he like actually wants to know where like I'm on this search of like how the hell do I not have a terrible life?"

terrible life?" >> This is why I think the skill set that gets you to where you are like so many people plateau and like I'm not I'm not interested in plateauing. Like I'm not interested in, you know, mailing it in.

Like I'm interested in I want to get to that end of my life. Like I don't want to tap dance on a giant reservoir of potential. I want like there is there

potential. I want like there is there was nothing more that I could have possibly done with my skill set and everything else. Like I want to figure

everything else. Like I want to figure out how to get the most out of that. And

this is there's something you just said about like there's a line in this Bruce Springst autobiography where he's like people don't come to rock shows or to to to

concerts rather to learn. They come to remind them for you to remind them of stuff they already know is true. And I

think yeah, you're going to learn like there's obviously creative ideas on how to build a companies in a in a 400 page biography of somebody, but what you're going to realize is like there's a lot of stuff that you already know and you know is true

>> and either you haven't applied it or you forgot it or you did it for a little bit and you need a reminder. This is why you mean me and you always describe founders like it's church.

>> It's church for entrepreneurs >> in that church. I think the animating interesting question is you read these stories all of which back to my my idea of originality hardship transformation

you know best story wins that uh originality is you're inspiring people to wonder what's my thing everyone's got something I guarantee it like it's my favorite thing to search

for in conversation especially if someone's not yet doing it which is kind of the same the same search for un unrealized potential or something everyone has a thing that for whatever set of reasons their life experiences,

how they're wired, their naturally endowed gifts, and searching for that thing is really interesting and really hard. And I think that's what founders

hard. And I think that's what founders continues to do for me is show me examples of people that went to the trouble to find their thing and then once they found it, foster it the rest

of their life. And again, once you find your thing, the second thing is hardship. It's not supposed to be easy.

hardship. It's not supposed to be easy.

Like nothing meaningful is easy and that's fine. And and then once you learn

that's fine. And and then once you learn that, I think that's when it gets really fun is that the m I always I always have this feeling the second something just feels easy and I'm kind of going through

the motions, I get really uncomfortable and want to try to push myself in in some new way. Um, but I think that's what Founders does so well is it shows it's what back to the very beginning of

our relationship and why I sent that tweet out and why we talked to each others for an hour the first time we talked. It's because it was so unique

talked. It's because it was so unique and so different and inspiring. Um, so I think it's a powerful thing to do for people.

>> I I think when I I say it's like what is my organizing principle? It's like I want to understand things or I want understand not things. I want to understand people and to understand people you have to like go deep and like

what hap like where were you born? What

was going on? Like what was this experience like? You have to just spend

experience like? You have to just spend a lot of time asking them questions and having these like long deep conversations. And I don't think I mean

conversations. And I don't think I mean there's a handful of people I feel I truly know. It takes a long time. It

truly know. It takes a long time. It

takes, you know, at least hundred hours of conversation, you know, on on the low end.

>> You mentioned, you said organizing principle, uh, which I think it's I think that's correct. Just to push because this can now be something we talk about for the next couple of years, which is probably how long it'll take to

articulate. That's different than what

articulate. That's different than what is your principle for invention. So,

back to the idea of inventing on principle. The principle should be

principle. The principle should be something that when you see it violated, it is your obligation to go correct it and that that correction is an act of

service for for other people, not for yourself. It's not about you. And that's

yourself. It's not about you. And that's

what makes the idea so powerful. I agree

that that's your organizing principle.

That's like the thing behind why you're doing what you're doing. It will be fun to try to pin down what the principle is for invention because that's what you're

doing. for making new things, which is

doing. for making new things, which is the most fun and rewarding experience of a lifetime. And I remember the the the

a lifetime. And I remember the the the little opening quote in this compilation of his life's writing by Joseph Campbell that was done by his niece or something.

The little opening quote in the book is the privilege of a lifetime is being who you are. And the people that make things

you are. And the people that make things that are the most interesting, those things are a reflection of themselves.

That's the most sustainable form of creation. If you can sort of spill

creation. If you can sort of spill yourself onto the thing you're making which benefits others, the thing you know being of service to other people in some way. I think that's the thing that

some way. I think that's the thing that we actually I think that's what we're all after. I think what we all want is

all after. I think what we all want is to make participate in the act of creation on a in in a small way that reflects the act of creation going on at

on a grand scale and to have that experience of in so doing by pouring oneself out into the thing and then having the thing be of service to

others. That's a that's an amazing

others. That's a that's an amazing feeling and it's hard to get going, but once you do, I don't know anybody I've never met anybody that's gone that's had

that experience and gone back. Not one.

And it's because I think it's the thing that we're we're all after. And that's

what you're doing too with this show.

I think like one of the biggest things I want to avoid is like finding the thing, doing the thing, being great at the thing, and then like something you do

causes that to stop where like, you know, I'm kind of obsessed with like this sained success. Uh, you know, like I don't want to, you know, have this huge spike. I don't want to flame out.

huge spike. I don't want to flame out.

Like I'd rather just do like this slow build decade after decade, get better, and like keep doing it. This is why essentially I read fiction and I read biography like that's basically what I

read and like the biography part is like okay what happens after they got what they wanted and the conversations I've been been having a lot of these have been having uh on camera but after off

camera I'm always asking because most of these people are older and more experienced and obviously more successful smarter and everything else just like what what do I have to worry about like what am I not seeing that

could like cause me to stop like I like what I'm doing I love What am I doing that would cause it to like for me to not be able to do that?

>> And there's like interesting like human questions about this.

>> Well, the trap is before you do the work to figure out the thing that makes you feel alive. There's

this great line in the um in the panachads that it's always referred to abiding joy. Like joy that doesn't

abiding joy. Like joy that doesn't doesn't run out. You don't use it up like you use up so many resources. As

you use it, you get more of it. That's

abiding joy. The target for most people becomes the traditional money, power, fame because those are worldly proxies for success that we all recognize and

are for sure to some degree true. It's

hard to get a lot of those three things without being successful in some way. I

think those those things are huge traps because they become once you start to get one it's the thing you start chasing and it's different than chasing the

feeling of being alive that abiding joy of feeling alive that we talked about earlier which you'll never run out of that that that will always guide you well always and

money power fame will not and so I think the answer to your question or your worry is just like make sure you're chasing the feeling of being alive and that the intuition around that and

you'll be fine. And it's when we it's when we get sucked and I've of course have just like everybody else like I've been intoxicated by those three things at various points in my life and that's

because they're intoxicating. It feels

really good the first time you have a lot of one of those things.

>> You're over fame though. You don't like it. Yeah. I don't I I don't I think it

it. Yeah. I don't I I don't I think it is uh I wish I could do what I do and you know that thing in Men in Black where they where they flash you in the face. [laughter]

face. [laughter] I wish like at the end of each of my episodes it like flash people in the face and they forgot who I was and they didn't recognize me. I've been thinking about this lately. It's like what I

actually you're limited you have limited time that you're like every day like what what where do I like spend this >> and it's like three things health work

relationships and I can't think of anything else that I care deeply about health has to come first because if we are sick or we have no energy like we can't do anything else but other than that like if you look at like how I spend my time it's essentially just like

I'm building I'm creating work that I hope it makes other somebody else's life better that I truly am like the abiding joy like uh chasing that and then I'm just deeply interested in a shocking way

of like having really strong relationships with other people and like I was not like that 10 years ago.

>> My experience actually I would disagree with the order. Um, I had I had tremendously bad health problems for a long time and

uh I don't anymore thankfully, but I'm convinced I'm certain that the reason is that I finally got my work and my relationships correct. And that when

relationships correct. And that when you're doing something you you love and have great core relationships, all of a sudden magically your health gets way

better. And during that time when I had

better. And during that time when I had lots of health problems, I ate unbelievably well. I worked out every

unbelievably well. I worked out every day. I I did all I did everything you're

day. I I did all I did everything you're supposed to do.

>> Yeah.

>> And and then some. I was crazy about it.

I kept daily logs of all this stuff.

Like there there's nothing I didn't try.

There was no Willy Fufu thing that I didn't that I didn't explore. I tried

everything to solve some of these problems and I couldn't solve them. And

at one point I felt resigned to just like I guess like I'm just one of those people that's going to be sick in life.

Like that's just how it's going to be for me. And it cannot be coincidence

for me. And it cannot be coincidence that when I finally started doing the thing that I think I was meant to do with my life and spend all my time with

the people and and focused on the relationships that all of a sudden my health got better. So now of course I still invest a lot in my health. Um I'm

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>> The fame part is interesting because this is something that like you uniquely understand and I can talk to you about.

It's like it's not to be known for the sake of being known. Like these like reality TV show people that that's weird. Like I want my work to be so good

weird. Like I want my work to be so good that it can't help but like become known and like talked about and like spread because they find value in it. This is

just human nature. Like if you find value in a song, a movie, a book, a podcast, like no one keeps that to themselves. the restaurant like they we

themselves. the restaurant like they we are compelled to tell other people about the things that we like. What I would say is like the reason I think I view it differently than you and you could tell me if I'm wrong or whatever. It's just

like not even wrong, but like it's the relationships that you get to build as a result of you being easy to understand to other people. So like no one's going to stumble upon any of my work and be

like, "What is this guy actually interested in?" Like it's like very like

interested in?" Like it's like very like clear.

>> Yeah, it's quite clear, very obvious.

And then if you think there's like some kind of like uh unique insight. But my

my my point being is just like I think this comes down to a principle like all like why are people all the people that I've studied either have conversation with or or um or read about. It's like

why are they great at what they do? And

it has to do with I do think the most fundamentally important thing that you do in life is choose who's around you. of course like your friends, people

you. of course like your friends, people you work for, like your company is the people that like that you are able to recruit and to to build. And so like what I couldn't understand is like I was

not interested at all in relationships with other people. I would say like 10 years ago somewhere like there where now it's like I invest a ton in that

element. I think it's like the the part

element. I think it's like the the part I'm very excited about my work that that has never diminished, but like I think it's the part that I'm most excited about and have been for like quite a while.

>> Well, because of course on your deathbed that's what you're going to be thinking about, not your 5,000 podcast. You're

not going to lie there and think >> but that's surprising to me, Patrick.

Like this is why I this freaking Bruce Springsteen book is like messing with me so much. It's because I'm I'm seeing

so much. It's because I'm I'm seeing this he's 70 he's 66 when he writes it.

67 something like that. now he's like 76 and I just heard him on another interview talking about it where the first half of the book is like this guy like has one of the most insane work ethics that you've ever ever seen and

it's channeled into one thing and he has no doubt since he was 15 that this is what he's going to do and he realizes that he does not have the skill set or

he has all these things that he has not developed the skill set to handle like I I'm just going to like try to like explain I just recorded a whole podcast about

it. So maybe like this will hopefully

it. So maybe like this will hopefully make sense. It was surprising to me that

make sense. It was surprising to me that this man who is psychopathically obsessed with professional achievement and fame and stardom and all the stuff

that he was very upfront about what he wanted from a young age. Okay, he gets it which I'll get to in a minute. And

his final realization is life is more important. Work is a part of life. It is not my full life.

Life is life. It is important. And his

biggest struggle was he becomes famous is this is what Jimmy I told me because like I I got to meet him and right when I was leaving his house he's like you need to go watch the new Brucestein

movie and it's called deliver me from nowhere. And I thought it was going to

nowhere. And I thought it was going to be like a biography of his life. That's

not what it's at all. It is like a dark I was shocked dark movie. This is the key to understanding unbelievable like terrible environment born into.

You're you're going to there's gonna be two actions there. You're just like this is what life is. I'm going to accept it or you're going to have this like maniacal will to change things. He has

the maniacal will. He's like I don't want to live like that. My his dad was one of the worst human beings to him. He

takes all that pain, channels it into a work ethic that is gets him exactly what he wanted, gets what he wants, which is

now he's everybody knows who he is. He's

world worldwide famous, he's rich, everything, and then immediately drops in his mid-30s into the deepest depression of his life.

>> And what he realizes is that's not what I actually wanted. And what he this is what it goes by. Hey, I I think I told you this upstairs or maybe I even mentioned this. like had a very

mentioned this. like had a very interesting conversation at dinner last night and it started with what is the lie that you're telling yourself and me and another person going around that for quite a while and it was very

fascinating and the lie that Bruce was telling himself was that work was the most important that becoming a rockstar was the most important fame was the most important and what he realizes that his

parents had so messed up his emotional well-being he was incapable of doing the thing that he wanted in his He wanted desperately wanted to have

kids, to be married, to break the chain like we mentioned earlier of like my kids will not experience what I he experienced.

>> And he was even writing he has a whole album fantasizing about this before he's able to do it. And what he would run into the same thing where like he it's

it's got to be such a crazy justosition of like he's on stage in front of 40,000 people. They all love him and yet like

people. They all love him and yet like in his case, he talks a lot about women in the book. He would get close to a woman. He'd have some kind of feelings

woman. He'd have some kind of feelings for her. They'd have she'd have feelings

for her. They'd have she'd have feelings for him back. Okay. Then he immediately goes, "Why do you love me? Like I am so [ __ ] up and undeserving. So the fact

that you love me means there's something wrong with you and I'm going to hurt you because you love me." And then he'd run away and then he'd get into another relationship and he'd go over and over and over again. and he didn't realize

the source of his depression was he didn't know what he actually wanted and he didn't have the skill set. And then

he winds up meeting the woman he's married by the way. He winds up meeting another woman who's in his band and getting divorced because he realizes like this is the person that can like

I'm willing to do the work necessary to fix which is like a crazy thing. And

then he goes through 25 years of therapy and in some kind in some cases he has to get on anti-depressants and like he's unbelievably honest from what what took place his life from 35 until 67 when

he's writing his book. And so I think there's all kinds of lessons in there from personal like what do you actually want in your personal life? Like the

kind of relationships you want with friends, romantic partners, whatever the case is. But this is what I meant about

case is. But this is what I meant about like I want to make sure I develop a skill set not just to stay where I am.

and you've pushed me in this direction a million times. You're like, "Stop doing

million times. You're like, "Stop doing everything yourself." Like, we have a

everything yourself." Like, we have a million conversations. You're just like,

million conversations. You're just like, "Why don't you have a team? Why don't

you do all this?" It's like, "It makes sense why I don't have a team because I don't [ __ ] trust anybody." Like,

that's obvious like why that is. And I

do think I'm like getting better and better and better to like even the stuff me and you talk about like 10 years ago, there's zero chance I would have let that come out of my mouth. Zero.

>> I mean, you tell Bruce's story, but I think you're talking about yourself to a large degree.

>> I know. and maybe my arrival at the uh the aspiration by no means perfect to be more serviceoriented. My grandmother who

more serviceoriented. My grandmother who just passed away, she was 99, um banged on me every time she'd see me this would be the topic of conversation. She's

like, "Yeah, yeah, yeah. Congratulations

on all the [laughter] all the success."

Like, who gives a [ __ ] Like, what are you doing for other people? That's what

I want to know. And I'm convinced that's the way out. that uh I think I like you and like so many listening have their

set of demons that they've struggled with and the path out is others.

Simple as that. And it sounds like Bruce I don't know Bruce I'm I'm not a huge Springsteen fan. I'd love I I need to

Springsteen fan. I'd love I I need to read the book obviously but that seems like a tale as old as time.

>> But this is something I learned from you. This idea of making sure that your

you. This idea of making sure that your source of fuel and energy and ambition is generative and not negative. And I do think like like the conversations I've had with you with Sam Hanky, it's really important. It's like I'm getting to the

important. It's like I'm getting to the point where like I push myself because I love it. I'm way nicer to myself than I

love it. I'm way nicer to myself than I have ever been because I'm like, "Oh, this doesn't serve me anymore. Like I'm

not going like I will be successful because I love it. And if I love it, I'll do it all the time. And if I do it all the time, I'll get really good at it." And and if I get really good at it,

it." And and if I get really good at it, money will come as a result because it's an act of service.

>> Yeah. The clean the clean fuel dirty fuel debate is really interesting. And

look, a lot of many most nearly all of the books that you've read were people that were fueled by dirty fuel. Dirty

Fuel works really well, but it consumes the person in a way that I would far rather die, you know, nobody knowing who I am with no worldly, you know, success,

but having people that could count on me, rely on me, I was faithful to, that I was loyal to, like that's what I want at the end.

So if you can work backwards from that, that's another cool way to think about it. Like working backwards from what you

it. Like working backwards from what you hope is true is a simple heruristic for for finding what to do well. And I think yeah, I think uh I can't wait to read the book. This is why I think you know

the book. This is why I think you know reading a bunch at the same time or not at the same time but like having a lot to to pull from uh is like I'm reading the Bruce book but then you realize like

another person with like superhero work ethic and drive and ambition was the LBJ which Robert Caro brilliantly writes

about and you realize Bruce is is generative. It took him a while to

generative. It took him a while to figure it out but like he got out on the other side of that where LBJ never did.

And even though their source is very similar, like there's a great story Robert Caro tells in one of his books where like um you know OBJ finally gets to Washington. I think he's like a

to Washington. I think he's like a intern. I don't even remember what the

intern. I don't even remember what the job he has. He has no money. It's cold.

Um and it'd be like the sun would be coming up at like 5:30 and this woman that worked with him would always see him like running everywhere >> and they just assumed, oh, he's got no coat, he got no money, he's like running to warm himself up. And then the summer

comes and he's still running. And

obviously Robert Carter was a master with words and storytelling. And his

whole point is like of course he was running. He like finally made it to the

running. He like finally made it to the spot cuz he was talking about he wanted to be president like third grade or something. He's like he finally made it

something. He's like he finally made it to the city to the spot of where all his dreams are. And like he was going to run

dreams are. And like he was going to run after his dreams. There's so much in between these two stories. One guy's a rockstar. One become one guy becomes

rockstar. One become one guy becomes president of the United States. And it's

the same thing. One is generative. One

is unbelievably manipulative. then, you

know, probably not a guy that you'd like want in your life to be around. And so,

I think also learning from like great examples, but almost like seeing like, oh, I don't want to be that way.

>> This is like something like, you know, one of the best things about like our friendship is like I actually want to like let people in. Like, I want to have >> friends and like deep friends. And in

the past, like that wasn't an important like thing to me.

>> Agreed.

>> This conversation is now therapy for David.

>> [laughter] >> But this is what this is my point was like when I wanted to sit down with you like there's a bunch of things I want to talk about but it's like I also want to like kind of like talk about the stuff that like we normally talk about. The

reason I think it's important for like me and you too is like how much of our ideas actually came from the creation of the podcast like you think about all

like all the different ideas and topics and things that you've learned as a byproduct of just making this thing. And

then the [clears throat] unfair advantage that we have is essentially like we be like professional learners, you know, like you you get to study somebody, you get to have a multi-hour conversation with them and like, oh wait, he said that or she said this, like I'm going to take that idea. Who

have you grabbed ideas from? And like

who do you let like influence your the way you think?

>> I mean, how long have you got? Uh I I could easily rattle off 50 people.

>> Let's take one like just some of the most important ideas and where they came from.

to take the the simplest example possible in the early days of the show.

This is a very like practical real world example.

Uh if you take the ideas that I got from Daniel who you mentioned before at Spotify about how to build software uh from Brett Victor who I mentioned before about this principle for great

software and what it looks like and from a guy named Chaan Pudigont at Benchmark uh one of the partners at a very storied investing firm called Benchmark who taught me how to sell software. just

those three guys. I basically just stole their ideas and applied it to my situation and it worked to a spectacular degree. I didn't know anything about

degree. I didn't know anything about software. I'd never built software

software. I'd never built software before. I had an amazing team at the

before. I had an amazing team at the time that, you know, was able to pull it off. But the direction of the resources

off. But the direction of the resources and what to do strategically just came from asking, you know, those three or three of the greatest in the world at

what they do. uh how do I do this to somebody that could help me and then not thinking too hard about what they tell me and just doing it and having it work and and so there's a tiny example, you

know, three people and and >> you have all three on your podcast.

>> Um two I've never met Brett.

>> Okay. So two out of three. Yeah.

>> These ideas came from conversations that you had on the podcast.

>> No, the I didn't ask them this stuff on on the podcast, but in time spent just offline with them. I'll never forget I was in Benchmark's office in San

Francisco showing Chaan the demo, you know, the demo. I'd show him the demos and um it was amazing. He'd give me feedback. They weren't an investor in my

feedback. They weren't an investor in my business or anything. He was just doing it out of, you know, just the goodness of his heart, I guess. And uh same thing with the others just and the three there's many many more than three people

that contributed to to that project uh that that influenced me and taught me things. But yeah, mostly just offline

things. But yeah, mostly just offline asking questions. But but I did

asking questions. But but I did interview Chaan and several times and Daniel several times.

>> This goes back to the the beneficial like nature of like relationships. Like

you start out as like okay I had a conversation with them and then if there's some kind of like mutual respect you build the relationship like right now we're filming this is the first podcast ever filmed at the Aman in New York.

>> Yeah.

>> You try to email the Aman in New York and ask them if they let me set up and film a podcast here for free. That's not

going to happen. And that happens because of the relationship, a personal relationship that I have with a friend of mine who it like is involved with Aman. This is why I would say like

Aman. This is why I would say like relationships run the world. And our

jobs are essentially like learning and then taking what we learned and packaging it for the consumption of somebody else and for an easy way for somebody else to consume and benefit from that learning where it's a

conversation, a book review or whatever the case is.

>> So that's like very practical. That was

in the early days when you were doing canvas right?

>> Yeah.

>> What about like larger things in your life? Like who do you think had like an

life? Like who do you think had like an impact like a my life would not be the same if not for that one conversation, that one idea with that person?

>> Two people came to mind uh right away.

Uh the first is Herb Allen from Allen and Company who I don't I don't know well. um these lessons came from one

well. um these lessons came from one incredibly, you know, incredibly interesting conversation about I my sense of him, again, don't

don't know him well, is that he is uncompromising in his values. He he does he's maybe like the apex predator of like the thing I want to do, which is like picking and supporting people.

>> I think that's what he's done for a really long time with unbelievable success. and that he is so incredibly

success. and that he is so incredibly uncompromising about how he does that and willing I won't tell the examples but like I think willing famously to like throw away huge commercial

opportunities just cuz the person wasn't who he wanted to support. Um so

sometimes it's literally a conversation with a person that just smacks you in the face and makes you feel uh validated maybe um for for what you're trying to

do. There's a gentleman named Reese

do. There's a gentleman named Reese Dooka who's been who's very very private. Um, and you know there's no

private. Um, and you know there's no content about him or interviews with him. I I wish to God I could he would

him. I I wish to God I could he would let me interview him. I know I know he never will. Um, who has been incredibly

never will. Um, who has been incredibly impactful on at like a philosophical level. He has he has all these amazing

level. He has he has all these amazing little phrases, but his life kind of boils down to simplicity. The beauty of simplicity. He gave me this line one

simplicity. He gave me this line one time, simplify your life with rhythm and harmony. And that line is what you're

harmony. And that line is what you're talking about. Fewer deeper

talking about. Fewer deeper relationships, fewer things better, everything aligned with what gives you energy, listening to your own, you know, feel the feeling of aliveness. Like he

lived that to a degree that's rare that I've never seen. So I could keep I literally could rattle names. a

gentleman that I spend a ton of time with now named Jesse Beay Rudy who I I am with basically every day who also I think has no interest in fame or

accolades or recognition but I think is one of the great will go down I I would predict as one of the great investors ever and what he's like Greece he's completely uncompromising and the most

principled way of living I've ever seen just like refuses to get sucked into the the game and um I could go man I could rattle off names for for hours and

hours. I mean, there's so many so many

hours. I mean, there's so many so many people that have influenced me. And

that's what makes us all that's what makes what you and I do so fun is I I'm inspired constantly. And you know, you

inspired constantly. And you know, you you're doing this new show. I interview

people once a week, but really I interview like 10 people a day. That's

what that's what I do. I just happen to have mics there one of the times, you know, if I'm doing it 40 or 50 times a week, which is not an exaggeration. Uh

it it really is that many people every week. just like who are you? What's your

week. just like who are you? What's your

deal? I love doing that. And so there's there's just too many too many to name, but those are a couple that came to mind.

>> Munger said, u I'm paraphrasing, but he's like, you know, one of the best ways to learn is like you find somebody that's like kind of an outlier, and you just ask like what the hell is going on with this person. Yeah. And you just keep asking that question to try to get like deeper and deeper and deeper, but

like reverse engineer of what they're doing and like why uh they're they're really successful. There's another

really successful. There's another fascinating thing where like everybody there's like this meme where it's like everybody has a podcast now and everybody starts podcasts and as soon as that like takes hold. You've been doing

podcasting for 10 years and you decide no I'm going to go in a different direction and the majority of our conversations I would say now are not even about the podcast. They're about

these profiles >> that you're writing >> on Colossus. Some of them have been so incredible that I actually used them as source material for a founders episode, which I think we should do more of those collabs because that was like they're

like really well written, kind of like doing my job for me.

>> Yeah.

>> Why did you decide to do that?

I'm in the abstract very interested in how can I create and control valuable scarce units of attention and then dole

those things out to the people that we believe in at a very high level. Uh the

reason we now have a magazine which on its face I think was a everyone would have agreed was a stupid idea or told me it was a stupid idea when we started it.

um why are we doing these profiles that take months or quarters or years to write um and require lots of investment?

Why do them? Well, the reason is I think it's just a beautiful way to shine the light beyond like podcasting on people that we admire um and to teach someone

teach the world about a compelling founder or a compelling investor or or artist or whatever. And the thing that I didn't realize would that was was that

because I'm not writing the profiles, our amazing team is writing them. It

would actually be a double whammy that not only uh when we started doing this, I went and read David Remnick, who's the editor, longtime editor for the New Yorker, and New Yorker profiles were were always my favorite growing up.

These incredibly detailed uh amazing well-written profiles. He wrote in the

well-written profiles. He wrote in the introduction to this his compilation of his favorite New Yorker profiles.

There's this line that says, "The best profiles over the last hundred years are are defined by somebody doing a thing they're obsessed with and a writer that

is as obsessed with the person as the person is with the thing." And I remember reading that paragraph and just thinking, "Wow, that like I want to read. That's what I want to read." And

read. That's what I want to read." And

um you know so I went and I read a million profiles and the very best one I read was in a a publication called tablet on on Palmer Lucky from Andre and

I reached out to the author his name is Jeremy Stern who's now the editor-in chief at Colossus and you know the rest of that story is sort of history. He he

joined. We've got other people, you know, that have joined or are joining to write these profiles. And it just felt like, wow, this is another way to do the

thing we love to do, which is to find the person, become obsessed, learn everything about them, take great time and pain to write a definitive thing

about them, and then share it with millions of people. And you know, the fact the one that we wrote about um Josh Kushner and Thrive was one of these like bizarre break the internet moments when

it just like completely took over the internet for a while. And I remember reading it the first time and I was like 45 minutes into reading it and I was

still reading about the Holocaust and um I don't think anyone else would take that risk in a profile of Josh and his family and his team but it was so

important to understanding the the soil out of which his family and eventually he emerged. And Jeremy also the writer

he emerged. And Jeremy also the writer was the product of Holocaust survivors himself and knew a tremendous amount

about Josh's family history because it was also his family's history. And I

thought that was the coolest most beautiful thing. I never would have I

beautiful thing. I never would have I would you know so this this project has become an excuse to uh first of all find more talented

people the writers that we can support which is great see the see the potential you know same thing we've been talking about over and over again. So now now team members become more people that we

can do this supporting thing with and for them to write things they're obsessed with and passionate about and then for the rest of the world to benefit for the people being profiled hopefully to benefit you know if we tell

the honest stories and and you know we want to tell the hard parts and the and the interesting parts and it's been successful beyond what I ever could have imagined. And I think it's important to

imagined. And I think it's important to note like when I started with the first idea, everyone said it was a stupid I mean literally everybody said it was a stupid idea. When I started the podcast,

stupid idea. When I started the podcast, everyone said it was a stupid idea. When

we started Canvas, everyone said I think like if people say something is a good idea, I always get a little nervous because if it's if it sounds like a good idea, it just feels you're in a more competitive space. It's going to be

competitive space. It's going to be harder. I think the key is stuff that

harder. I think the key is stuff that sounds dumb but isn't. Uh and I think that's what I would, you know, starting a magazine in 2025. I think falls in that category of sounds dumb. Magazines

are dead or dying. Um, but the thing underneath it was this desire to have more ways to do the thing that we love to do, which is find people, learn about them, tell the world about them. I

suspect it won't be long until that's much bigger than even the podcast, which itself is, you know, very, very big. The

surprising thing is I think you want that to be the case.

>> What what specifically?

>> Colossus being bigger than the podcast.

>> Of course, >> that's not an of course thing. You got

to unpack that. You got to explain why you feel that way. I know you don't know how other people view you, but I get a lot of this because they know of our association. Like they're like, "He this

association. Like they're like, "He this is the best, you know, business interviewer in the world and this is incredible." Like why would he not want

incredible." Like why would he not want that to be the biggest thing?

>> I'm not saying I I want to keep doing that.

>> I know you I know that >> for sure. I I love it.

>> But I think in your heart if you had to choose, you like, "No, I'd rather have the profiles be bigger." Cuz you like Again, this goes back to how I think how we started the conversation. I really do believe you'd like to be the guy behind the guy.

>> That's true. But the reason for me is like almost so obvious that it's uninteresting, which is well, if a bunch of other talented people are doing this and then creating these things, first of

all, I'll have more of them >> so I can enjoy them more and I'll I'll get to enjoy it just like everybody else. Like, I can't tell you how fun it

else. Like, I can't tell you how fun it is to get the first draft of one of these things in Slack. Like the things that make me the most giddy in my work

are uh some new draft that they've created for Colossus and some new research report on an investment created by my incredible team on that side who in many ways are just doing it's turtles all the way down like it's the same like

deep investigation publishing writing clear thinking. Um when I get one of

clear thinking. Um when I get one of those two things in the morning often sometimes there's days where I have several of them those are the best days.

And so selfishly, I would just love a world where I'm not needed at all. Um

because that means we're creating more of them. Obviously, I'm limited by my

of them. Obviously, I'm limited by my own bandwidth and time. Uh I'll always do interviews. I hope that they I hope

do interviews. I hope that they I hope it gets bigger and bigger and I I don't want to like fade into the sunset, but I hope this is much bigger because that means I get to hire more incredible, talented people and hopefully put them

on a career trajectory that's the best it could possibly be. And that's

incredibly gratifying. I get to read more of these things. Um, I get to do this thing that we love to do for more people and point this point the light that we're trying to cultivate on more

and more talented people. That that's

like unbelievably exciting. I hope it's not just writing. I hope it's documentary. I hope it's

documentary. I hope it's who knows where it goes. I hope we start convening people in small situations where meet this person, meet this. Like

that to me is the most fun thing in the world. And so a world where it's no

world. And so a world where it's no longer rate limited by my time and energy is much more exciting than a

world where it's me. And so yes, I would vastly prefer that all the rest dwarf whatever I do, even though I hope what I

do lasts forever and is big itself.

>> I don't remember the first time you brought up this idea to me. Like what?

Now it seems obvious in hindsight, right? Because people have been reading

right? Because people have been reading process.

>> You know, everyone's launching a magazine. It's gonna be like podcasts.

magazine. It's gonna be like podcasts.

>> But but not only that, like specifically profiles >> where like people have been reading like you mentioned that I bought that book too that you told me about the New Yorker like people have been they're always interested in people. I remember

reading um >> Larry Ellison pic loves to pick fights >> and he thought it was like really good and he didn't like the fact that Oracle he had no media strategy for Oracle and he's like uh Oracle is just compared to other database companies and I don't

like that. I want to be compared to the

like that. I want to be compared to the best companies in the world.

>> Yeah. It's like almost like this idea of me and you bond over that we both learned from Jared Kushner or constant refinement of association. So he's like I don't want to be compared to Sebass or any of the or whatever how you say it

like these other >> what is it >> from Dub and D that's from Dub and D.

[laughter] >> Well I don't know I don't know what it's called.

>> All my not an investor podcaster.

>> There you go [clears throat] forever.

All my vocab comes from the written word. So, you know, everybody makes fun

word. So, you know, everybody makes fun of me cuz all my DMs are like, you mispronounce this word. It's very

obvious, buddy. But his whole point is like, I don't want to be associated with these people. I want Oracle

these people. I want Oracle as IBM or Microsoft. And so, he's like, the way I'm going to do that is I'm going to pick a fight with Bill Gates and Microsoft. And he does this huge

and Microsoft. And he does this huge fight.

>> And originally, he thought that it was going to be, you know, Microsoft versus Oracle. And he's like, but people are

Oracle. And he's like, but people are interested in personalities more than they're interested in companies or technologies. So it became billionaire A

technologies. So it became billionaire A versus billionaire B and it greatly elevated his profile and then he said that Oracle and Oracle's products were risen like came along with the increase.

>> So the reason I bring that up is because people are fascinated with profiles of other people. We are fundamentally more

other people. We are fundamentally more interested in other people and like what they can teach us about ourselves anything else.

>> You just what were you thinking? Because

like that was something that existed forever. And who writes great profiles

forever. And who writes great profiles now? I don't even see any of them.

now? I don't even see any of them.

That's the other part that's exciting is because I like things that are really hard. Okay, so original hardship, we

hard. Okay, so original hardship, we didn't talk as much about hardship. I I

think uh you've been talking a lot about doing something that's different just because it's different. I would add on which I think is interesting and correct, but I would add on to that like

it should be different and really hard like really hard to do. And if if I just I'm sampling all the profiles we've written in my head, some of them are

ridiculously hard to write. Not only

because of all the hours and work that has to go into it and the talent as a writer that has to go into it, but sometimes it's sensitive parts of the person's life that's never been written about and they've never talked about and

maybe they don't want to talk about or they don't want you to talk about and it's the coaxing it out of them and that takes time and and trust and so um the

thing I can't wait for is the profile that we write 10 years from now that we start working on today. We we have this idea um which we've started to do where we just ask people, can I just have

lunch with you once a year? I'm not

going to do anything with it. Just like

I'm just going to I just want to start collecting the the line >> and maybe we'll write something in 10 years, you know? So things that are really hard to make are really

interesting to me. And I think people stopped doing profiles because they're really hard to make. They take time. The

business model kind of sucks. like the

the pay is terrible. You know, profile writers are not paid well. Um the world went a different direction. It's much

cheaper and faster to make a stupid [ __ ] Tik Tok than write a 50page profile about someone that's careful and intricate and well written. And I

believe you and I certainly talk about this all the time. The world is desperate for

the time. The world is desperate for some stuff like that. The world is so sick of this crap just all day, every day. It's just crap. And it's it's

day. It's just crap. And it's it's everyone makes the junk food comparison because it's a perfect comparison. Like

junk food got to where it was because it's been optimized for us to want the most of it possible. Whether or not it's good for us, it's obviously horrible for us. It's the same thing with most

us. It's the same thing with most content. And everyone knows this in

content. And everyone knows this in their gut and we all want something more carefully created. And I think profile

carefully created. And I think profile might be perhaps the ultimate expression of that. If a documentary is like the

of that. If a documentary is like the ultimate profile, maybe that's even harder than writing a profile. But um

yeah, I'm interested in stuff that's very hard to make and that's singular that can't be easily copied. And uh I mean the literal answer to your

question, it's kind of funny was somebody uh I'm actually seeing seeing him Monday gave me the idea to potentially buy this

existing magazine. And um we we didn't

existing magazine. And um we we didn't buy it because I like to create our own things primarily. But it was notable to

things primarily. But it was notable to me that this magazine, which had been around for a long time, had all these incredible I'd never heard of the magazine. And it had all these

magazine. And it had all these incredible people on the cover. And I

thought, "This is strange." Like, "Why are these people doing this magazine that no one's ever heard of, big names?"

And it it dawned on me. I was like, "Oh, it's the cover. Like, people can't say no to a cover." And so, I tested that theory out and and it was true. And I

think what that means is it's like the ultimate form of spotlight and attention that you can give to somebody. And so

that that's what got me actually literally spinning on like, oh, maybe we should I would love to have a cover that I could dole out.

>> Did that idea come before or after you read Jeremy Stern's piece on Palmer Lucky?

>> Before. So I was I was then on the hunt.

And this is another idea of that you and I talk about often, which is if you want to hire someone for a thing, just go consume as much of the thing made by a

million people as possible. Whoever made

the best one, go for them. Uh there

there was this funny conversation during co an investor friend of mine, one of the one of the uh one of the great investors ever who's now retired was

part of the zoom conversation and it was the topic of the conversation was uh attributes of great founders and at some

point someone goes well maybe it'd be easier to think about them not as founders but as inventors and everyone thought oh this cool idea okay let's talk about them as inventors not as founders. And then someone said, "Well,

founders. And then someone said, "Well, what are the attributes of a great inventor?" And people started, you know,

inventor?" And people started, you know, they're this, they're this, they're this. And this one investor's face

this. And this one investor's face started contorting. And you could just

started contorting. And you could just see that he was frustrated by all these answers. And it got to him, and he was

answers. And it got to him, and he was like "Morons who cares? Did they make a good

who cares? Did they make a good invention?" Like, if if the invention is

invention?" Like, if if the invention is good, the inventor is probably good.

>> Yeah. And and so I think you and I have taken that approach to um I certainly have to finding people like just just look at what they did. If they're the Jeremy wrote the best profile that I

read turns out he's a great profile writer like he's written 10 more and we'll write a hundred more. Like so I the I was then on the hunt after I had

this I and we had this idea to go now okay now let's go find the let's go find the best people to do this thing. I read

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>> People vastly underestimate the important of volume.

>> Like whatever you're into, just be into it more than anybody else and like you'll be able to tell like what is a good idea, what is a bad idea. It's like

this constant refinement of taste. In

fact, I was shocked at the way your profile started with about Josh Kusher where it was like this >> visit to Rick Rubin's house >> and I'm a huge Rick Rubin fan. Like I

like I read a biography on him. I think

it's like episode 245 of Founders did that. Um, I think some of his interviews

that. Um, I think some of his interviews and stuff he says in an interview. It

could be a three-hour conversation and you just hear like it's like a 45 second clip that makes everything like it just makes perfect sense on on like I needed to hear that whole three-hour conversation just to get that 45 second

clip and that 45se secondond idea uh in my head. But if you think like the guy

my head. But if you think like the guy started, you know, his his record company in like 1984 in his dorm room >> and he's been in the same business. He's

worked with all these different musicians. In fact, he said something

musicians. In fact, he said something that was interesting to me. I actually

screenshotted it, saved it, and I reread it on my phone. And he talked about that the most obsessive artist he ever worked with was Eminem, which is like, wait a minute, that's you worked with

everybody. You've had a four decade long

everybody. You've had a four decade long career. Like, why is that the case?

career. Like, why is that the case?

Like, that makes me want to know more about that. Uh, our mutual friend Brent

about that. Uh, our mutual friend Brent Bashore told me, it's a hilarious story one time. You know, Brent's got he owns

one time. You know, Brent's got he owns a bunch of different companies and sometimes those companies need a CEO and he found himself, I think, at like a lunch or dinner with Charlie Mer. And so

he's like, you know, I'm this young guy.

I think he was probably like 35 at the time. I own these like 12 companies.

time. I own these like 12 companies.

How, you know, how do you and Warren find like great cos and Charlie's just like we just find somebody that is a great co and say come do that for us.

Yeah.

>> And Brent's follow goes, yeah, but what about hiring for potential? He goes, "We don't do that." [laughter]

This is a beautifully simple like idea.

He's really good. Can you come do this over here?

>> Yeah. Yeah. People show you. And um it's that I think that also if you invert that to use another mungerism, it serves as great advice, too, which is if you're

trying to get ahead, put stuff out in the world that people can find. Hanky

would call these breadcrumbs. put stuff,

put breadcrumbs out into the world so that people see it and are amazed by it.

Like if you create a single thing, not you don't have to do 10 things, just one thing that people are amazed by. Put it

pour a year of your life into making one amazing thing that people are amazed by and amazing things will happen. I

promise you. Like the the internet is amazing at sharing something that is great. You say there's always room for

great. You say there's always room for great. Yeah.

great. Yeah.

>> One of your maxims. >> That's true. Great takes time. Great's

hard.

>> You just you just proved this. The the

idea of there's always room for great came because so many people are like, "We don't need another podcast." I was like, "Okay, so we don't need any more music." Yeah. We're going to stop making

music." Yeah. We're going to stop making music. We're going to stop making

music. We're going to stop making movies. Like no, it's just like we we

movies. Like no, it's just like we we need less bad [ __ ] but that's always going to happen. Like there's always room for great. You just prove this with the profiles.

>> Yeah.

>> Like that idea was just hiding in plain sight. It was just not being done well.

sight. It was just not being done well.

And it's like, well, what if I just take this idea and not make it shitty? Well,

how Walt Disney towards the end of his life, it was very fascinating because, you know, everybody associates him with animation and Mickey Mouse and everything else. And yet when he's

everything else. And yet when he's towards the end of his life, he's asked like what is the things that he's most proud of? And he said he named two

proud of? And he said he named two things. He said keeping control of my

things. He said keeping control of my company cuz he lost control of his first company and he's lost control of the first characters he made and Disneyland.

And Disneyland was his obsession. In

fact, I read this book called Disney's Land. I think it's by Richard, this guy

Land. I think it's by Richard, this guy named Richard Snow. And it's not about the animation. It's not about everything

the animation. It's not about everything we know him for. about how he thought about making this amusement park. And at

the time, amusement parks were think of like lowquality. They were like kind of

like lowquality. They were like kind of scammy because >> traveling caries.

>> Yeah, exactly. Like you would come in there and there would be like games to play and you'd get ripped off because the games were set up and everything else. And he's going around trying to

else. And he's going around trying to raise money for this very unsuccessfully. And they're like, "Yeah,

unsuccessfully. And they're like, "Yeah, but you know, uh, amusement parks are like kind of like trashy." He's like, "That's the point. Mine won't be." Yeah.

It's because like mediocrity is always invisible until passion shows up and exposes it. And he's just like, I'm just

exposes it. And he's just like, I'm just going to take every single part of this and make it better and then they remove the parts that don't make any sense.

>> Um, and like that's a great filter for like finding, you know, new things to create in the world.

>> By the way, I spent my 20s basically just reading and I read more than you can imagine. I mean, you're probably the

can imagine. I mean, you're probably the one person that can imagine it because you did something similar, but I wasn't just doing I mean, literally everything I could get my hands on, thousands and

books and profiles and everything. And I

started the podcast in part because I started to feel this awful feeling of like this is happening in this weird isolated way. Like it's just me and my

isolated way. Like it's just me and my notes. I'm not talking to anyone about

notes. I'm not talking to anyone about these books. And so I wanted to sh I

these books. And so I wanted to sh I wanted to start sharing which is where that book email came from that you originally that's where the audience came from. Like I used to have this

came from. Like I used to have this saying, learn, build, share, repeat. And

just like do that until I die. Um and I believe in that. And so

>> it's still wait, build, share, repeat.

>> Yeah.

>> Still really good.

>> Still works.

>> Yeah.

>> And it's maybe that's my go that's my governing principle probably like you you you said before and yeah, it's an incredibly powerful loop

to go on. Um, but that 10 years of reading prepared me to be a good producer of profiles because I've seen great, I've seen good, I've seen

average, I've seen bad. Um, my my reps are very, very, very high. And that's

another thing I always tell people, especially young people, is like what is the thing where you naturally have a lot of reps because you just like it and find some build off that because there's this learning by doing concept like you

get better at something just through being prolific in the thing and most people have a thing for which they are naturally prolific. even that if that's

naturally prolific. even that if that's following your sports team or what you know whatever whatever it might be like what's the thing you just can't help but do crazy high rep count of probably

that's a good clue to like where you could go build one of these compounding curves for yourself and for me it was read my first love was reading that love of reading became

the email list you know here's my four favorite books from the month um the email list gave me my first set of people to listen to the podcast. The

podcast introduced me to all these people, helped me build my business and sell it successfully, you know, and on and on and on. That led to that led to positive sum and and me building my

business successfully in software got me to all of these people building early stage companies, writing these small checks, writing these small checks got me to this series A investment that caused me to create this new investment

firm. creating this new investment firm

firm. creating this new investment firm caused me to go invest in all these, you know, companies in a bigger way and be more impactful on on them and their trajectories than I could have been on

my own. The whole thing is daisy chained

my own. The whole thing is daisy chained together because I loved reading [ __ ] books in my 20s and I did something about it and I started telling other people which ones I liked. That's what

it's that's how it started. That's it.

And all of that was unpredictable. Back

to why I don't like goals. If you had told me when I sent that first email to list my goals, none of those things that I just listed would have been on my sheet, I wouldn't have even known to

think about them. My own experience has cemented my belief in this growth without goals. Like I wanted to grow. I

without goals. Like I wanted to grow. I

love the idea in weightlifting. Jeremy

Gif and I talk about it all the time of progressive overload of like always like a little bit harder, a little bit more like go to failure, go to failure, go to failure. But you don't. The beautiful

failure. But you don't. The beautiful

thing about life is you don't know where that's going to take you. I God, I never in a million years could have predicted any of this crap. What's even more exciting is they don't it doesn't stop.

Something some set of stuff's going to happen over the next 10 years, which if I tried to make a goal list today, I would be unable to predict. It's going

to be so much fun. But it all started with I had a thing I loved naturally. I

just like to read books. And I think that's profoundly cool. Now, you know, obligatory disclaimer that like I've been so unbelievably luck. I had the

privilege to sit and read a gazillion books and not be spending all of that time just getting ahead like you had to because again I I I I was very lucky the

situation I was born into in life with the parents I had and you know the the the things that were easy for me. I

didn't have to pay for college. all this

all this stuff made it possible for me to do these things and I I I think that's important to acknowledge. Um but

nonetheless like you found your way there. You found the passion. You found

there. You found the passion. You found

the high rep passion and now look now look that's like my constant urging to people like it's there. I promise

there's something just go find it.

>> I think it was beautifully said we haven't even touched on investing which I want to >> let's do it. I want to talk about is it code red seeing red? What is there's

this fantastic story uh that we've talked about before where you were going to make an investment in somebody's fund.

>> Is it seeing red? What did this person say about you?

>> He said I was red on the color wheel.

>> Okay. Red on the color wheel. Can you

tell that story?

>> Sure. So you you me and Sam Pinky were walking and I think you asked Sam what's my biggest weakness or something? No,

you were interview. Okay.

>> When you just said like this all started from because I had I like love to read and then that started this whole chain of events and now you have this other parallel thing that you just do compulsively that you can't help which

is like exactly what you said. I'm doing

10 invest like the best episodes a day.

I'm just recording, you know, I'm doing 50 a week and I'm just recording one.

Like if we're in a group, I know what's going to happen. You're just going to start lighting people up with questions.

So we go on this 5 hour walk, which Sam did not like, by the way. [laughter]

People don't know that you're like a goddamn billy goat, okay? Like I It's just you you walk way too fast. You

don't go around obstacles. You just go straight over them. That's why I call you a billy goat because they do that in real life. Like you know if you're out

real life. Like you know if you're out in nature and usually people there's a mountain here like I'll follow the trail around it. It's like no billy goats just

around it. It's like no billy goats just go straight over and up and like that's like walking around with you.

>> And so we're in >> Columbia, Missouri of all places. We go

on this like 5 hour walk and essentially it's a 5h hour private invest like the best episode except you're interviewing both of us >> and you would ask >> the other person questions about the

other person who's like really actually was like really impactful and important for me to understand myself because again like >> somebody you trust and you know has your best interest in heart and is not trying to criticize you just for critic

criticism. I think a lot of people are

criticism. I think a lot of people are hyper sensitive to criticism and if it's like some random stranger, okay, that makes sense. But you know that person

makes sense. But you know that person cares about you.

>> You know that person wants the best for you and they're telling this about you, you should even if you don't agree, you should think about it for a little bit.

And I've [clears throat] thought a lot about what he said in over the years and I definitely agree like he he was right.

So I don't know how this got turned on you, but that's when he said >> you're code red. No.

>> Red on the color wheel.

>> There you go.

>> Yeah.

>> What does that mean?

>> Well, first just a thought on Sam, which is it's hard to imagine a higher compliment I can pay someone than the role that Sam plays in my life. Uh

the way I would phrase it maybe is I have more conversations with Sam when he's not there than when he is. What I

mean by that is I'm often finding myself wondering in a in a situation like what would Sam think about what I'm going to

do here? Um, I so value his

do here? Um, I so value his character and judgment and fidelity and and just so many things about him. But

like what a role to play in somebody's life. Like he's the one I invoke in my

life. Like he's the one I invoke in my head. One one of three or four people

head. One one of three or four people that I invoke in my head of like what would this person think about, you know, this thing I'm about to decide on? Um,

but back to the story. So he said uh yeah it was something like what's my biggest weakness and he he described me as being red on the color wheel which uh

he explained meant that uh when I'm interested in something I I am intense like and I've always been this way. I am

voracious and intense and aggressive and uh I would say I have a skill at making things happen when I'm interested in in in them happening. And maybe that's one

side of the sword. The other side of the of being red on the color wheel is this like locked in intensity. The other side of it is that like the moment that

attention is is is focused elsewhere, >> I can tend to whiplash around a lot and change my opinion.

>> This is known lovingly amongst your friends as your eye of Sauron.

>> Okay. [laughter]

where like if Patrick is focused on you, he will like he will make [ __ ] happen, but if it's elsewhere, you're not I've had to fly literally to Greenwich like

dude, get back. I like we need to focus on this. I had to get in your cuz you're

on this. I had to get in your cuz you're you're >> in some cases it's like a physical presence thing. It's not just like I can

presence thing. It's not just like I can get you on the phone, but I was like no no this is not good enough. So that's

the strength your strength can be your weakness.

>> You know, it's interesting. thing I

learned something about myself recently which I at first was terrified about um and now I've come to view as everything is everything is double-edged you know which is I have um if you close your eyes and try to visualize something a

red cardinal or something there's there's a degree of how spec how visually sharp that thing looks in your mind's eye when you close your eyes for me it's just black I can't visualize anything I can't see anything I'm like

wait I discovered this like a year ago I'm like wait a minute you could see things with your eyes closed like what are you talking about >> we were at Brad Jacob's house having breakfast. He was very disturbed by

breakfast. He was very disturbed by this. He tried to fix it.

this. He tried to fix it.

>> Yeah, I know. Yeah, he tried to he he put me through a guided like he tried to hypnotize me into into visualizing something and it didn't work.

>> Um, so anyway, the the the the other side of that sword, it freaked me out that I couldn't see anything with my eyes closed. But, uh, the other side of

eyes closed. But, uh, the other side of that sword is like when I'm focused on something like like here right now, I am not thinking about other stuff. Like,

it's just all this. I'm I'm I wish it wasn't the eye of Sauron. That sounds so bad. But it's said in a loving way.

bad. But it's said in a loving way.

>> I understand. [clears throat] So Sam's point was you're red on the color wheel and um you when your attention shifts, it can be whiplashy for those around you.

>> What was the example he gave though?

It's too good of a story not to tell.

The example he gave was that Sam at the time was raising his first uh fund and we I was going to be an investor in the

fund and uh so he called me and said you know putting this fund together it's small limited group of people I'd love to have you if if you want to do it.

Hell yeah, I want to. Of course. Um, and

told him the amount or whatever. And

then he called me back like a month later and was like, "Okay, like I have the docs already and you know, we're ready to go." And uh, you still in for this much. And I said something like,

this much. And I said something like, "Well, I can't. Yes, I'm still in, but I I can't do that much because actually like I I have also launched a fund." And

he was like, "What?" and and I said, "Yeah, you know, I need to make a a GP commit to my own fund." And so I'm, you know, this is before I sold my business.

It's a little bit, you know, tighter situation. And I have to reduce the

situation. And I have to reduce the amount. And he he started to tease me

amount. And he he started to tease me because he was like, "Wait, so when I first called you a month ago, you had never even thought about having a fund.

I've never heard you talk about that. I

don't think you'd ever thought about it.

And now a month later, like you already have a fund. like a month later like it's raised and done and um I think that's a good example of like yeah some opportunity came out of left field.

there was this investment opportunity in one company that led to a fund very quickly in the summer of 2020 and um so yes I I I like to move really really

fast when I'm interested in something but my interest does shift around and um I don't think this is a good thing by the way like I I I don't want to whiplash people and and I realized

thanks to Sam that I was whiplashing people I would be so excited and willing and able to galvanize people around an idea And then I would change my and this

still happens but I would change my mind and completely forget about the idea back to like people that have this lack of visualization thing also have quite bad event memory. I don't ever think about stuff in the past like ever. And

so I not only can I change my idea but I literally never think about that thing again that I was so passionate about in the moment you know for a short period of time. And that is jarring for people

of time. And that is jarring for people you know that are like signed on to do a thing and then a week later you're like what are you talking about? What thing?

like we're doing this thing. And

[snorts] um so I' I've worked pretty hard to narrow the uh simplify my life with rhythm and harmony, focus on fewer things, like get less distracted by what

I would call like the flavor of the month club, which is something that that can definitely snare me for sure.

>> Yeah. Now that you say that, I haven't had any like eye of Sauron moments with you in quite a while. [laughter]

You've kind of fixed that.

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I heard Ari Emanuel on your podcast say something that was like actually pretty smart where he's like his idea of like when especially when he's trying to do a deal he like overcommunicates >> and I think a lot of that is like the the problems like I didn't understand

that about you because I had never worked with you before and then I was like I don't get it like what what's going on here and then other people that knew you explain that and I'm like oh

like I'm like having an issue and we've never even had an argument or a fight. I

mean, one thing that I love about it is like we worked together for years and we had like a we never had paper anything.

We never had a contract. We just said, "Hey, this is what the agreement is." We

shook hands and like we did what we were supposed to do up until the very like it was just like exactly how I want to. I

don't want to deal with people where there's like have to deal with people where there's like a bunch of contracts.

I want to know it's like you gave me your word, I gave you mine and then like this is what we're going to do and we'll like figure it out. But the I think what was happening there is like there's all

this like unsaid stuff that you think we are looking at on the same way and yet if we just said oh like this is how I'm thinking about this thing and this is how I'm thinking about that thing and like just essentially just over communicate as much as possible

>> with the people that are important to you because then you're not going to have there's no unspoken assumption you know and then if you let it sit there too long then you have another unspoken assumption on top of that one then

things can get like really really weird.

I think a lot about leadership because ultimately my main job is to back people with LP dollars, lots of them that have been entrusted to me as a fiduciary into

companies led by these people that we're backing that are usually pretty early in their company building journey. So

you're you're mostly or largely backing the person in the team versus the you know mature business story. and pretty

important that that person's a good leader. And I think one of the things I

leader. And I think one of the things I underestimated about lead great leaders that Ravi Gupta who's another person that I would list, you know, and people that have really impacted me. I I at one

point I called like everyone I knew. I

was like define good leader just I'm going to I'm going to do a survey >> and Robbie gave my favorite answer. Uh

he was like it's not hard like a great leader is someone that other people want to follow. [laughter] That's it. and

to follow. [laughter] That's it. and

everyone else had given much more ornate definitions and I Robbie's was my favorite and what I've learned about what is shared in common amongst people that others want to follow. Um,

one of the big ones is that they are hyper communicative with those people and they're consistent and uh they lead from the front. They, you know, they

they take risk. They take arrows for the team. They communicate like crazy with

team. They communicate like crazy with the team. if something's changing, they

the team. if something's changing, they overcommunicate it, you know. Um they're

they're honest. Like all these things add up to someone that people want to follow. And uh I think I was quite bad

follow. And uh I think I was quite bad on that dimension for a long time. Not

because I was trying to be bad, just because I was so excitable. I I am so excitable. Like when I find something

excitable. Like when I find something new and interesting, like I just cannot get enough. But very often that means

get enough. But very often that means I'm billy goating up ahead of the pack and forgetting like oh wait I I I need to like there's all these people that I want to do this with. I don't want to

just do this alone. Um so that's been a big lesson for me that uh has taken a while to learn. Yet another thing to credit Sam with >> some of the best leaders like when you see in like company buildings like

history's greatest Twitter is like really think of them as like they they they're teachers and then they understand they need to repeat repeat repeat. I always say repetition is

repeat. I always say repetition is perspective. You gave me that great like

perspective. You gave me that great like Catholic saying where it's like repetition doesn't spoil the prayer. So

I think of like Jim Synagol founder of Costco. He has this great line in the

Costco. He has this great line in the book, this biography of his mentor, this guy named Soul Price, who basically influenced, he's like the most influential retailer of all time. Jim

Synagol was mentored by him. Sam Walton

took more ideas from him than anybody.

Bernie Marcus got the idea for doing Home Depot from Soul Price. Jeff Bezos

took ideas from Soul Price. Like, it's

just incredible like how influential this guy was and most people know he he uh he is. And in that book, he says that if you're not spending 90% of your time teaching, you're not doing your job as the leader of the company. And what he

is is like means like teaching what our philosophy is, what is our purpose, how what we do, how we do it, why we're doing it, and you just repeat it over and over again. I just did this episode uh called How Elon Works, which is I

think the most downloaded episode of Founders ever. Like it's just nuts.

Founders ever. Like it's just nuts.

>> And what I was shocked is even you think of you don't think of Elon as like a he's definitely a singular character.

There's nobody else like him that I found living or dead. There's usually

some kind of historical equivalent of anybody. I haven't found a historical

anybody. I haven't found a historical equivalent of him. And you would think, oh, he's working like seven different companies at a time. he can't possibly be like this. And he was mentioning like that algorithm, that four-part algorithm he had uh that he uses in all his

companies. He's like, I say it so much.

companies. He's like, I say it so much.

I repeat it so much that you'll be in a meeting and my executives will be mouthing the words along with me. They

know what I'm about to say. And I think that has to do with like overcommunication. It's like I we are

overcommunication. It's like I we are going to be on the same page. I'm not

worried that you hear this for the 10th time. I'm worried that you're not

time. I'm worried that you're not understanding where we're going or how we're going to do it. M um and so I think about that like a ton like repeat repeat repeat.

>> Yeah. The the joy of that sort of thing and that sort of leader the the my favorite my you have all these great maxims. My favorite maxim pretty much the only one we use in my business with

my team is the reward for great work is more work. And I find that saying that

more work. And I find that saying that maximum to the right person, like the kind of person I want to spend time with, they their eyes go wide and they understand it immediately. That the

reward for great work is not money, power, fame. It is the privilege to get

power, fame. It is the privilege to get to do more of this thing that I love doing. The problem with coming up with

doing. The problem with coming up with like good terms for this stuff, we use this term life's work, is that immediately everyone else starts saying it and it ceases to have any meaning because like now every goddamn meeting I'm in, like I'm doing my life's work.

Um and and my experience is that almost nobody is doing their life's work. Even

great a lot of great founders, I would say it's not their life's work. I love

the fact that Thomas Jefferson on his tombstone uh has three things that describe his life. But one of them is not that he was the president of the United States was, you know, author of the Declaration of Independence, founder

of the University of Virginia, not not president. And I think that's so

president. And I think that's so interesting. Um, and so I think a lot

interesting. Um, and so I think a lot about like is this thing this person is doing going to be on their tombstone?

And uh, usually the answer is no. And

the reason I like this concept of life's work so much, which I would define as a lifelong quest to build something for others that expresses who you are. All

three parts really important. Say that

one more time.

>> A lifelong quest to build something for others that expresses who you are. And

we have trained ourselves to see this in people. By the way, the best way to

people. By the way, the best way to figure this out, my favorite question for founders is literally just take me give me two hours. Tell me your whole life story up until the point you founded your company. We'll talk about

your company later. Like just tell me what got you to here. Back to best story wins originality hardship transformation. In the business context,

transformation. In the business context, it's I want someone that's lived a very unique path. I find success in startups

unique path. I find success in startups is is the result of path dependency.

very often some unique set of lessons and experience led to you being the right person to do this thing and then hardship of course you know the harder the business is to build the harder it will be to copy you know I think that's really important transformation is about

the customer you know if you build something crazy hard the customer's life will get way better service so I think this powerful concept of life life's work can be applied to ourselves to make

great investments um and it's really rare but these the the leadership qualities of life like the reward for Great work is more work. Reason I

started talking about life's work and and investing is these people realize come to realize you will not be rewarded with great work if you do not become a

good leader. And a common pitfall that I

good leader. And a common pitfall that I certainly have fallen in before is when there's someone really talented, they can do a lot themselves. They can get a lot done themselves. And I refer to this

as like heroics. And that's always necessary. a founder always has the sort

necessary. a founder always has the sort of is the flame keeper of the spirit of the company. Um and and I think founder

the company. Um and and I think founder led companies are so much of course so much more interesting preaching to the choir here than uh professionally managed companies for the most part. But

I do think that like becoming a great leader becomes the most important way to secure more right to do great work. Is

there anybody that you admire that was doing great work and then stopped?

Whether they sold their company, they retired, whatever the case is. Is there

anybody that you know that like you can you admire personally that stopped?

>> There's tons of people I admire who change what they do a lot or have changed what they do a lot who stopped one thing and went to another thing, >> but they're doing something.

>> Yeah. I I don't um I'm just wired this way. You are too. I

I just need to be doing something. I

can't sit around. I'm And so I'm I'm drawn to people that are that want to make stuff. And so I have tons of

make stuff. And so I have tons of examples of people who have been uh have tried lots of things and made lots of things and moved on from things and had chapters in their life and then

a new chapter with doing something totally different. There's there's one

totally different. There's there's one um investor that comes to mind whose name is John Feffr. And John has been wildly successful in like the it's almost like he picks whatever he's doing

and as he gets to the tail end of it, he tries to find like the thing in the world that is the most different from what he's doing. He says with glee that require him completely abandon his current network because they're

irrelevant for it. Like one time he went from being one of the key guys at KKR and then went to be like one of the most important guys in cryptocurrency and then went from that to building like a grocery store chain in the UK. And each

time he's like I literally had to start from scratch and I love it. Like I had to build a completely new network of people. And so I know lots of people

people. And so I know lots of people like John who um have successfully hopped around. You know, I know your

hopped around. You know, I know your focus is more on people that do a thing for a really really long time. Uh, but I don't I don't spend a lot of time with

people that were uh prolific creators of things that just stopped. I

>> I think they're like the saddest people like you're in it's this infinite game and there's some set of circumstances that cause you to like make that decision. And

decision. And >> here's an example. Um I love there's this really fun game you could do it

with your friends. You sit down and on piece of paper you write down 10 roles that you play in the world. Podcaster,

father whatever friend.

And and then you pair them up so it's just one, you know, one one thing on each sheet of paper. And then you have to in reverse order, 10 down to one, slowly throw the rolls away until you're

left with one. Okay, so one one roll left. It's a really interesting game to

left. It's a really interesting game to it's interesting for yourself, but also super interesting to see what your friends pick. First of all, what's on

friends pick. First of all, what's on the list of 10. Um, you could do this with attributes for yourself, too.

Curious, hardworking, whatever. And then

and then jettison those one by one. Fun

game. I played this with my uh my wife and my kids and my in-laws one time. And

I'll never forget it. My my

father-in-law had a very very successful career as an entrepreneur. and executive

in the kind of healthcare and insurance world and uh we were we were doing this game and his last one was grandfather.

So that was like the role that he kept as his final most important one and he is an unbelievable grand like like the Michael Jordan of grandfathers like he

is he is unbelievably good at being a grandfather. like makes me emotional

grandfather. like makes me emotional thinking about it and so thankful for it and the the difference it makes in my kid's life and his other grandkids life

is extraordinary and so Dan is his name Dan is no longer a major healthcare executive he's still an entrepreneur he can't he's not given it up completely but he definitely devotes himself more

to something like that which in some sense is much smaller and in another sense is the biggest possible thing you could do and so even the people that sort of like stop the commercial side

that I love tend to find a thing to pour themselves into. And in this case, it's

themselves into. And in this case, it's the same thing we've been talking about this whole time. It's an act of service to show up at everything to be the most reliable, to be the most fun, just over

and over and over again in the in this case, in the role of grandfather. Um, so

I think that's exciting for my own life that maybe when I'm 70 I I won't do any of this stuff and I'll do something else that's totally different, but my attitude towards it hopefully will be

the same. And that will be because I've

the same. And that will be because I've gotten the privilege of watching people like him do that sort of role at that stage of their life. So, back to your

original question, the people I love and admire most do pour themselves into what they're doing, regardless of what that role is, even as that role shifts around as life goes on.

>> You gave me this term that we describe people that we don't want to spend time with that now I think I just use and I make that I came up with it and it's casual.

>> It's like, you know, do you want to go to dinner with this person or do you want to meet this person? And like

shorthand between me and you, we're always like, no, they're casual. Like,

they're just not. It's the exact opposite. This is a beautiful story.

opposite. This is a beautiful story.

Like I I went from like I pity these people that don't work anymore to like that person's better than I am. That

guy's a better person than I am.

>> I mean honestly there's something very beautiful about the scope of the ambition shrinking so narrow.

We talk a lot about um you know the trillion dollar coach uh what's his first name? Last Bill Campbell.

first name? Last Bill Campbell.

>> Bill Campbell.

>> I never met Bill Campbell. I wish I had it. It's this ar this beautiful

it. It's this ar this beautiful archetype of older guy from just working with a couple executives and he worked with Google and you know um some of the most famous companies but was apparently

like transformative in the lives of these people but it was like five people or three people or how whatever small set of people and that's it and he wasn't doing it for money or fame or power or any of this stuff he was just

doing it to help these couple people. I

think that's a really cool exercise to be like, what if the only thing I was allowed to do in my life? Nothing else

was allowed was help three people. Who

who would they be and what would I do for them? Dan helping his four grandkids

for them? Dan helping his four grandkids or something like that. That makes me excited for later later stages of life when I think the ability to do something

like that goes up. And that is every bit as successful in my mind and in my book as Elon Musk or Jeff Bezos or you know pick the pe the people that we all

worship in the business world of I'm amazed by them too but there are flavors of success and to me that sort of devotion even if it's to one person to

your wife to your kids whatever is every bit as successful and if not more so because that [ __ ] will ripple

through history. My son and my daughter

through history. My son and my daughter will now behave differently because of the experience that Dan and my mother-in-law and my dad and my mom gave

to my kids. So, what's better than that?

>> It is so unusual for us to even contemplate that like some of the decisions you're making right now are going to ripple through the generations.

They're going to affect things way after that you're you're gone. Somebody, we

talked about this uh I think yesterday, somebody took a bunch of like interviews I've done and stuff I've said on the podcast and like literally made like a hip-hop album and there's like eight track hip-hop album. I think it's called like David Center of Founders or

something like that. And I we keep talking about it, but but I sent it sent it to Hanky. Uh cuz the first one was like this idea of like general generational inflection point.

>> Yeah.

>> Generational inflection point, which is like the founder of the family. And you

know, Hink is rather religious in a way that maybe I'm not. And you know, he's like he he's like, "Did you script this out?" I was like, "No, I didn't." Like,

out?" I was like, "No, I didn't." Like,

"Did you know about this?" Like, "No, like somebody just sent it to me." Like,

I didn't. You think I'm making music about myself? Like, come on. You

about myself? Like, come on. You

>> I wouldn't put it past you. [laughter]

And so I was like, "No." And uh, you know, he's like, "Yeah, I listen to a bunch of them, but like that that first song, he's like, "That's obviously like a that's a sign from God. You should

consider a sign from God." I'm like, "What? What is this?" And we were on the

"What? What is this?" And we were on the phone. I was like, "What are you talking

phone. I was like, "What are you talking about?" The reason that came to mind is

about?" The reason that came to mind is because in that song, I guess I talked about I think it was on your show where I was just like, you know, this this this choice by this man I don't remember and I never met. I met him but I don't

remember him which is my grandfather who was 30 years old living in Cuba, no education, doesn't speak English, doesn't have money, has two jobs, works in a shoe factory and and is a butcher.

>> Somehow realized, oh, Fidel Castro, this is probably bad. I have to go to a country that like I don't know anybody.

Yeah, I don't speak the language. And

like that's just one choice, you know, three decades later or whatever, I'm going to be born and now I'm born in a, you know, a capitalistic greatest country in my opinion, greatest country in the world as opposed to that like

that one decision by somebody I don't remember like ripples through the entire generations.

>> This is a very interesting thing to contemplate when you're trying to make your decisions. The last thing on his

your decisions. The last thing on his list was was grandfather. What was the last thing on yours?

>> The story was so overwhelming I honestly don't remember. It was probably husband

don't remember. It was probably husband or father, one of those two. Um,

to me, those are the most interesting roles in life. Um,

you know, you and I have tal, you know how I feel about those two things. And

so, it's probably one of those two where I probably cheated and said, can I have both? Um, and I hope it's, you know, I

both? Um, and I hope it's, you know, I hope it's that till it's grandfather, I guess. Uh but but the the the available

guess. Uh but but the the the available we said I said something like this earlier but the depths available in those relationships

are crazy to me. I can't believe that every couple years you I find a new level of those things. I just can't believe every time it happens I'm like I

can't believe it's happening again. And

in terms of like a place that can yield rewards um th those are the most interesting to me. But uh more generally like the maybe

me. But uh more generally like the maybe this is the theme of our conversation today. the the the set of small set of

today. the the the set of small set of relationships of with people for whom I would do anything and that's how I'm wired like there's a certain category of

person you're one of them that I whatever you need you don't need to explain it like I'll do it and getting to that point with people I don't think

life's too short and and you know there's only so much energy in a day and so you can't do this for a thousand people but you can do it for 10 or 15 you you know, follow Dunar's number or something. You could probably do it for

something. You could probably do it for 15 and that is my prized possession.

That list of people for whom I would do anything is my prized possession. And I

think that that can probably be true for just about anybody. And so I try hope to act in a certain way to deserve that group of people. And even if they even

if they don't feel the same way about me, that's okay. If I'm in their list of 50 and I'm 15, it's fine. Um,

yeah. I think I think that that role game is quite fun because it it I think it pulls out of you like where you have the most energy.

>> I think this exactly what like we talked about today is like why I'm so obsessed with having conversations with, you know, people I find interesting.

Obviously, people I have like deep relationships with because like this is why I'm going to keep holding on to this idea that I'm not interviewing people.

I'm having conversations because we talk all the time. I had no idea where this conversation was going and it went in places like I learned stuff about you that I did not know.

>> And so I really appreciate you saying yes to me and coming kicking and screaming on. I want to end by turning

screaming on. I want to end by turning it around on you. What is the kindest thing someone's ever done for you?

>> One is uh they're related. So I'll tell them in order. The first was I had a cousin. I

order. The first was I had a cousin. I

come from an Irish Catholic family where when you go to the family reunion, you get a sheet that looks like one of those maps from the 90s where you just have to like keep unfolding it because there's

just so goddamn many people. And so I have um I have cousins who are technically my like third or fourth cousins that feel in my family more like a first cousin.

One of my third cousins was a guy named Tim Oshanaughy.

And when I I was a bad student in high school. I was like a very good student

school. I was like a very good student as a as a young kid. I went to this giant high school in uh in Connecticut, like 4,000 students, and I just partied

way too hard and didn't get good grades and didn't take it seriously. And so I there was a day uh I I remember I remember it very distinctly. I was at a friend's house having stayed up too late

the night before and my dad called me and said, "Hey, you know, you should you should probably come home. There's a

whole bunch of very small envelopes here from colleges. So, I actually got I got

from colleges. So, I actually got I got rejected from every college I applied to uh the first time I applied to colleges and I got all the rejection letters on

the same day. It was a bad day. Um so

then I reapplied to some other schools.

I I had wanted to go to the University of Notre Dame and I called them and I said, "Uh, where are some schools that have a compatible curriculum with yours because I would really love to work hard and then transfer." So they gave me a

list. I went to one of those schools. I

list. I went to one of those schools. I

got I got very good grades. I

transferred to Notre Dame. So now I'm a sophomore at Notre Dame. And um I didn't know anybody. I met they they do a it's

know anybody. I met they they do a it's not like freshman year where you have all this amazing orientation. You

transfer student. They're like here's your room number like see you later. Um

so I met like the couple other transfer students and that that was it. And back

to being shy like I wasn't at the time good at like navigating a new social situation. I just I was I wasn't good at

situation. I just I was I wasn't good at it. So Tim, who I had met like maybe I

it. So Tim, who I had met like maybe I didn't know Tim well. You know, Tim was from the Midwest. Um I didn't know him

that well growing up. He uh took it upon himself to come meet me, find me. He I

remember very distinctly he brought me a fake ID. Uh he he went so out of his way

fake ID. Uh he he went so out of his way for like the first six months to like organ transplant me into his social circle. And like maybe Tim owed me a

circle. And like maybe Tim owed me a beer or two, you know, a couple couple nights out and a beer was his obligation as a family member. But instead, he would like call ahead to his friends saying like, "I'm sick. I can't go out,

but Patrick's coming out. Can you just like show him a good time?" Just like over and over and over again. Like

literally, he just injected me into this community. Tim is the reason that I I

community. Tim is the reason that I I met my wife, which I'm going to come back to in a second. Met my best man, met the only other groomsman in my wedding that wasn't a family member. Um,

so you know, through this act of over-the-top kindness of just there was nothing in it for him. He was just doing the right thing, it sort of set me up for the rest of my life. Which brings me

to the second thing. So, um, my first night at Notre Dame, Kim shows up with this fake ID that says I'm 5'4 with blonde hair and blue eyes. and we go to

a place called Boat Club, uh, which let me in with this fake ID and was shut down for letting people in with this sort of fake ID like three weeks later permanently. May I rest in peace. And I

permanently. May I rest in peace. And I

walked into Boat Club and the story of meeting Lauren, my wife, was that was my first night in Notre Dame, the first bar I walked into and she was the first girl

that I talked to. And uh, that that is a crazy stroke of divine luck or something. Um, but it was lucky because

something. Um, but it was lucky because I was 19 when I met her. She was 20. And

you know, we we've been together and married and have kids ever since. And

the true answer to kindness is her.

Because for 20 years now, we we just crossed the point of our lives where I've been with her more than I haven't in my life, which is so crazy. I'm not

I'm not young anymore. I'm 40, but not old. and to have been with her for more

old. and to have been with her for more than half my life and to have grown up as an adult, whatever they say your prefrontal cortex like matures when you're 25 or something. So like six years with her where I didn't even have

a fully developed brain. Um

it's by far the number one blessing is that she uh yeah we created this we have created this life together in a way that

I I I mean the thousand things that 10,000 things that she's done that add up to that 20 years is like the very clear true answer. Um Tim tragically

died very young. Um which was awful. But

I think about him all the time because without him none of this would have happened and this life wouldn't exist.

And so I love this story because and I love this question because whole lives are downstream of simple

quick acts of kindness. Uh and without Tim my life doesn't look anything like what it looks like today. All the things I care the most about don't exist probably. And so I remind myself of that

probably. And so I remind myself of that every day, which is why I love asking this question.

>> That was awesome. Now everybody else gets to see what I get to see in private. And this is why you should do

private. And this is why you should do more podcasts. Thanks, Patrick.

more podcasts. Thanks, Patrick.

>> Thanks, buddy.

>> I hope you enjoyed this episode. Please

remember to subscribe wherever you're listening and leave a review. And make

sure you listen to my other podcast founders. For almost a decade, I've

founders. For almost a decade, I've obsessively read over 400 biographies of history's greatest entrepreneurs, searching for ideas that you can use in your work. Most of the guests you hear

your work. Most of the guests you hear on this show first found me through Founders.