My Therapy Session with Dr. Gabor Maté

I would bite.

You'd bite. You said

I would bite other kids. Okay. Yes.

Yeah.

I would feel threatened and I would bite them usually on the forearm or upper arm where it's kind of fleshy and doughy.

I would say, "Oh, there's some bobka."

And then bam. And I'd hit them.

Mhm.

Top two teeth, bottom teeth. And I was a biter.

I'm 39 years old.

I almost never bite people now.

I'm a relieved to hear that.

Yeah. I haven't bitten my sister in two years.

Oh, that's great.

At least.

Congratulations. When I first decided to create this podcast, God bore Mate was at the top of my interview wish list. I

mean, he's the best. He is a best-selling author and a leading voice in rethinking how we approach healing, connecting the dots between addiction, trauma, and childhood.

But I honestly don't know if what you're about to watch is an interview or a therapy session on me. I went into this wanting his thoughts on a few big

questions like how people use their past trauma as an excuse to not own their own [ __ ] and his assessment on what's unfolding right now in Gaza. But it got

very personal very quickly. I mean, he literally diagnoses me with ADD within 29 seconds of this interview. And it

just drills deeper and deeper into my soul from there. And look, he's not the first person to call me emotionally immature, but he is the first person to

do it to my face on camera. So,

enjoy.

[Music] Gabbor, I want to start with a question that I think if you were able to answer, my friends, family, and colleagues would be so happy to know. the answer to this

question which is why am I always late?

Well, let me ask you this question.

Sure.

In school, yes.

Do you have trouble paying attention?

Correct.

Okay. Do you tend to lose things?

Yes.

Do you find it easy to get be disorganized?

100%.

Okay. You probably qualify for this diagnosis called attention deficit disorder, which is the topic of my first book, Scattered Minds, after I was diagnosed with it. And being late is one

of the aspects of it. And what it is is a lack of time maturity. Like in in scattered minds, my book on ADHD, I describe how it's 5 minutes to 8:00,

but and I have to be somewhere at 8.

Yes.

But at 5, I still think I have an eternity in front of me.

This has been my problem since I was a child. Yes.

child. Yes.

Cuz your time sense didn't develop early.

Correct.

So that's why you're always late. And I

can also tell you why your time sense didn't develop early.

Why is that?

You see, kids don't have a time sense to a baby. A present moment is eternity.

a baby. A present moment is eternity.

Yes.

You can't say to a one-year-old, you'll have dinner in 5 minutes. Right?

All they're eating is there's no dinner.

5 minutes is eternity. Time sense has to develop. The brain has to develop. And

develop. The brain has to develop. And

for brain development, you need certain conditions. Here's what I can tell you

conditions. Here's what I can tell you without knowing anything about your specific history. When you're there's

specific history. When you're there's two things that are true about you.

Okay?

One is you're highly sensitive.

Yes. The other is when you were small and infant even during the pregnancy your parents were stressed.

How did you know this?

Cuz that's why you have ADHD because you're tuning out and your lack of development of time sense has to do with the stress in your environment. And more

genetically sensitive infants are the more they pick up on their parent stresses. And that actually interferes

stresses. And that actually interferes with the brain development of certain circuits. It's really that simple. It's

circuits. It's really that simple. It's

not a disease that you inherit. It's

actually a response to of sensitive infants to a stressed environment.

When I have something important to do, I will immediately find something not important to do.

Yeah.

So, I'll be like, "Oh my god, I have to organize this drawer right now."

Yeah.

Or I'll be like, "I saw an Instagram ad about jogging pants. I really need jogging pants. I should probably buy

jogging pants. I should probably buy them now."

them now." Yeah.

Or I'll get mad at myself and go, "You know what? Grow a [ __ ] pair and do

know what? Grow a [ __ ] pair and do the hard thing right now. But before you do that hard thing, you should probably go to the bathroom."

Yeah.

Why am I procrastinating? Well, again,

procrastination is another trait associated with this syndrome called ADHD. And uh typically we put off things

ADHD. And uh typically we put off things until the very last minute.

Yes.

And then we do do this rush to get it done. Like I I I never in in university when I did my undergraduate training before I went to medical school.

Yeah.

I never began an essay until the night before it was due. And I'd be up all night writing it. Again, it has to do with time sense and it has to do with lack of motivation. Now, things that

you're highly motivated to do, I doubt that you pro procrastinate very much.

I'll do it immediately.

So, ADHD is really a question of motivation and uh there are certain circuits in the brain to do with motivation and uh that has to develop

again like all circuits. Nobody is born with a developed brain. The motivation

circuits have to develop. They run on a chemical called dopamine. Mhm.

Dopamine is essential for sense of vitality, for curiosity, for seeking.

Yes.

And when you put under high pressure, there's high dopamine levels.

Yeah.

And then you get more really motivated.

So you're waiting for that dopamine hit before you get down to doing what you need to do. It's it's it's a matter of how environment shapes brain physiology.

Now, just to have some polite push back, do I really have ADD or do I have a childlike sense of wonder?

Why is there a contradiction? People

with ADHD tend to be more playful, more curious.

Yes.

Um in some some ways more emotionally alive and they tend to become comedians. I

mean about I've seen about probably 90% of comedians could be diagnosed with ADHD because you got this brain that jumps all over the place, right?

Which is the essence of comedy.

Yes.

You know, so that just about every comedian I've ever met I could diagnose within a split second with ADHD. I think we have ADD and many

with ADHD. I think we have ADD and many of us unfortunately have clinical depression as well. That's what gives us a very dark sense of humor. But I want to uh go down this a little bit with you

which is I will also be late to things that I care about.

There's a form of even as an adult, I'm 39 years old, I am aware that oh my god, I'm about to be late. I've been late for

dates with my wife. I've been late for pickup of parents or children.

There is this what is underneath this lack of understanding of time or procrastination. I have a theory and I'd

procrastination. I have a theory and I'd love for you to unpack it. I think at the core of it, there's something that I want to do and as an adult now, I know

the path to it will either be painful or humiliating. Well, let me put it in more

humiliating. Well, let me put it in more simple terms if I may. Um, there's two things going on for you. Um, no, you know, you can agree with this or not.

I'm giving you my view. You know, laying down the law here, you know.

Sure. Sure.

Um, there are two things going on. You

really don't have a good time sense.

I have a horrible time sense.

Like, if there's 10 minutes left, it's not here yet. So, it's not happening yet. So, that's why I mentioned before.

yet. So, that's why I mentioned before.

Absolutely.

The other is you're emotionally immature.

um in the sense that um emotionally your fun know you can be intellectually very advanced.

It's the law of uneven development. some

aspects of our personalities and our brains can develop highly but others be underdeveloped and there's a lack of responsibility there like like um if you

really perceive yourself as responsible and um other people's experience mattered to you as much as you you'd be

there on time and I promise you if I called you up and uh said Hassan I have a billion dollars for you if you get here at 5 minutes to 8:00, you'd be

there at 6 minutes to 8:00.

I'll be there at 7:30. Are you kidding me?

Yeah. A billion dollars because you'd really care. And by the way, I'm the same. All my life, I've always been late to some. So, I'm not criticizing you or anybody else.

But you can call me emotionally undeveloped, but I'm calling myself emotionally enveloped in that same sense. Okay,

great. You know, so appreciate that, brother. I'm not here to point fingers

brother. I'm not here to point fingers at anybody. I'm talking about the

at anybody. I'm talking about the dynamic of what's underneath it. There's

a certain degree of lack of maturation, you know, which has got its charming aspects. You get to be playful and kind

aspects. You get to be playful and kind of childlike in a lot of ways.

But it also leaves you with lack of responsibility.

Yeah.

And again, I'm telling you, you're perfectly capable of being on time if you're motivated enough. If I promised you a billion dollars, you'd be there.

When you're still pursuing the relationship with your wife and you're deeply in love with her and you're in that romantic phase, were you ever late?

I was still late. Yeah. I've always been late. This is why I mean she's a ride or

late. This is why I mean she's a ride or die and really yeah you know how the state says she should get half I'm like she should get another half she it's a lack it's a lack of discipline you know and and I don't mean and then I hate myself I actually start to hate myself and

it creates a very bad see that I would talk to you about because if I told you that look I have this issue with being late

would you call me despicable no but I would say it's okay to hate yourself why is it okay to hate I don't know. I

think it's an Indian thing. I think

there's an Indian thing to it, which is you should be mad at yourself.

You should should you hate anybody?

I mean, depends on what they did.

Should you hate me if I'm late?

I shouldn't hate you. You're too you're too sweet. Yeah.

too sweet. Yeah.

Well, why should you hate yourself?

I think it's it comes from a place of you keep doing this to yourself, man.

So, you're you're not a serious person.

See, there's two ways you can approach that.

One is you keep doing this, you're not a serious person and you're smart enough to know that you're not supposed to be doing this.

All these judgments.

Yeah.

So that's one way to approach it is with self judgment.

Yeah.

And by the way, that goes along with ADHD. As somebody once said, I'm sorry

ADHD. As somebody once said, I'm sorry is the commonest phrase in the ADHD vocabulary.

Oh my god, I say sorry all the time.

Yeah. Yeah.

I let it fly like You might really want to read my book Scouted Minds.

Okay.

Cuz I've just gotten to myth of normal.

I got to go back to the deep cut of Scattered Minds. So, let's start with

Scattered Minds. So, let's start with Scattered Minds.

Go to Scattered Minds. That was

published 26 years ago and two years ago it became a New York Times bestseller.

But what was I going to say? So, you

could do that self-critical, self-hating, um, self-judging thing where you get curious, not why am I doing this, but h why am I

doing this?

Actually, I'm well intentioned. I'm

intelligent. Um, I capable.

Capable. I care about people.

I wonder why I keep doing this, you know, and so that self- curiosity and self exploration is the alternative to where did that where did that self- curiosity take you on your mystery to

finding out why you were late to things?

Well, look um I began my own first my own journey of self-discovery um because my life wasn't working. I was successful physician,

newspaper writer, father, respected and I was depressed. And I was always late and I was disorganized and I had sensed that I had a a deep potential

that I haven't come near to expressing but I had no idea why not. So I had to start asking well what's going on here?

What's going on here? And uh that took me to deeply into the literature of child development and psychological unfoldment.

Right. And

you've talked about this in your work of this changing the framing from what's wrong with you to what happened to you.

Exactly.

That question in of itself is a bit offensive.

Why? What the [ __ ] happened to you?

Why is that?

You can see how that just the framing of that. What happened, dude? What happened

that. What happened, dude? What happened

to you? That is kind of offensive.

Yeah. Yeah. But you see the the offensiveness is not in the words, it's in the tone.

You can say, "What happened to you?" Or

you could say, "hm, what did happen to you?"

you?" Yeah.

Is that the same?

No. Those are those two two very different tones. Yeah.

different tones. Yeah.

So the one is a judgment and a rejection. The other is a

rejection. The other is a is a real inquiry. I'm talking about genuine inquiry. And I'm advising

genuine inquiry. And I'm advising anybody who hates themselves that what they need to do if they really want to get to know is not to accuse themselves

but to be curious. There's always a reason. There's always a reason. Um, and

reason. There's always a reason. Um, and

that reason is always rooted in a person's life experience and their multigenerational background.

So if behavior is connected to our past and I and I and I do see the intellectual argument in that, but aren't some people just [ __ ]

No.

Uh, we have to distinguish between a lot of people do bad stuff.

Yes. A lot of people are cruel or selfish.

Yeah sure.

Or aggressive.

Yeah. Yeah.

Narcissistic.

But that's not who they are. The Buddha

said 2500 years ago that with our minds we create the world. So that the minds with which we perceive the world that's the world that we live in.

Yeah.

So if somebody said the world is a horrible place.

Yeah.

where it's doggy dog. Everyone against

everybody else. Your friends want your house, they want your wealth, they want your wife, and these are your friends.

What how would that person have to behave, do you think, if that's the world they lived in?

I mean, I think they would have to behave in a way that's very similar to uh the way Makavelli is.

So, how would they telling to you'd have to behave selfishly, you'd have to be duplicitous.

You'd have to do a lot of You have to be aggressive.

Aggressive. Yeah. You'd have to be grandiose. Make yourself big so that

grandiose. Make yourself big so that other people be afraid of you.

Yeah.

You have to be suspicious. You'd be

president of the United States because it was Donald Trump that said wrote those words in his autobiography. Uh the

art of the deal. I quoted verbatim.

Oh wow.

Okay. Now a few days ago in Washington DC, I happened to meet his niece Mary Trump.

Okay.

Who's a psychologist and she's written a book on the Trump family. where she

describes what happened in the Trump family. Donald Trump was not born

family. Donald Trump was not born aggressive grandiose selfish self arandizing, suspicious. He was born an

arandizing, suspicious. He was born an infant ready for love, needing love, needing acceptance, needing validation.

But he was born into a family where according to the psychologist's niece Mary Trump, if you read her book, the grand the father Trump senior was a sociopath who treated kids his kids

horribly.

Her own father, Donald Trump's brother, Fred Jr., became an alcoholic and dragged himself to death by the time he was in his early 40s. Donald adapted to

those same circumstances by becoming grandiose selfish uh aggressive developing these world views that the world is a horrible place and that's the

world that he lives in. He couldn't help it. It's really interesting. Uh, people

it. It's really interesting. Uh, people

accuse him of lying.

Half the time I don't think he's lying.

uh his biographer or his corriter Tony Schwarz who wrote the deal with him he says that Trump actually has a mind that says if something should be true it is true

oh reality distortion field yeah yeah you know I write a biography of Hitler same thing and Hitler had a horrible childhood so when you say

somebody is a an [ __ ] no I don't think anybody is is that people be develop certain coping patterns and I'm not saying is to excuse anything or to justify anything. I'm just asking what

justify anything. I'm just asking what is the source of the personality and what is the source of the u uh of the people's behaviors. Those

behaviors are just manifestations of life experience. And and look, do you ever had a puppy dog? Have you

ever had a dog?

Uh Indians don't really do dogs, but yes, we had a bunny rabbit for a bit and it [ __ ] everywhere and we had to get it out. But all right.

out. But all right.

Yes. But and but my wife loved the the the rabbit and my kids loved the rabbit, but it was [ __ ] everywhere and I couldn't take it anymore.

Okay, fair enough.

Yeah.

Well, now anybody who's ever had a puppy dog Yes.

will tell you how you treat that puppy will determine how that dog's going to be for the rest of his life. You beat

them, you starve them, or you uh are capricious towards them. They're

going to be suspicious, worried, maybe aggressive, maybe scared. If if you grow a tree, don't you know that whether you give enough irrigation, sunlight,

minerals in the soil, right, that'll determine how that tree will develop. It's the same thing with human

develop. It's the same thing with human beings.

We're born with certain needs, essential needs.

Yeah.

And how those needs are frustrated or devastated or met will largely determine how we develop.

You know, you're you're a very interesting person, Gabbor. You

naturally are incredibly gentle, kind, affable, but even the way you're describing the world is from a very beautiful, curious perspective.

At the same time, one of the things I think about now that I'm a father of two, I have a seven-year-old and I have a 5-year-old.

Yeah.

And I think about this lesson that my parents have told me in some words and I kind of agree with, which is, I'm not trying to prepare you for the way the world should be. Mhm.

I'm trying to prepare you for the way the world is.

Yeah.

And in here in New York City, sometimes you have to be just judgmental. For me,

it's three buckets. If I'm on the train, you're one of three buckets. Number one,

you're a ride or die. Number two, you're an acquaintance. Number three, you're

an acquaintance. Number three, you're shady.

Well, being alert to the environment and being aware of the realities that you face doesn't have to change your personality and who you are.

Explain that. explain that to well those are just normal responses to the situation. If I was

the situation. If I was if I happen to be walking in a on ground that there's a lot of snakes I might have to be very careful where I

put my foot that doesn't change who I am that just means in certain situation I have to be alert and aware that's what you're describing.

Yeah. Being on the train and touching people but it doesn't have to make you a bad person you know. By the way thanks very much for your kind words about me about being gentle and so on. you should ask

my wife. You know, there's all there's

my wife. You know, there's all there's there's always the uh I present in public and what I'm able to say genuinely.

Oh, yeah. Yeah.

Then there's the degree to which I'm able to manifest that in.

I think every afterward of every book should just be written by the family of the author.

You're totally right.

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Let's talk about this big topic when it comes to therapy, which is the fine line between unpacking the trauma of your past versus taking responsibility for your [ __ ]

There's no versus is the same.

Um, see the if I say stuff happened to me, Yeah.

which it did. It happened to me.

Yeah. Yeah.

Um, therefore, I'm a victim and I can't help it.

Yeah. Yeah. then I'm taking no responsibility.

But Gabbor, in your book, The Myth of Normal, you wrote about being annoyed at your wife for not picking you up from the airport and how this pain was rooted in your abandonment as a child.

Yes.

During World War II and you wrote, "There comes a point when Hitler made me do it won't fly."

That's the whole point. So what is the line between personal responsibility of you giving your wife some latitude versus blaming it on what happened to you as a

child?

I'm not interested in the word blame at all. Just blame bores the hell out of

all. Just blame bores the hell out of me. I I just want to know what happened.

me. I I just want to know what happened.

And if I understand that my sense of abandonment with my wife that shows up in my relationship, which is kind of a tendency of mine, and then my reactive

withdrawal and into solemnness and distancing, which is my particular relationship style, is rooted in some deep childhood experience of being given away by my mother and

getting the sense of abandonment.

that doesn't absolve me of responsibility. It gives me the

responsibility. It gives me the responsibility of making the distinction that what can I do to liberate myself from the impact of the fat of the past so I'm

not imposing it on my wife and my environment. So knowing the past gives

environment. So knowing the past gives me a sense of responsibility and actually enables me to be in the present. And as friend and colleague and

present. And as friend and colleague and teacher of mine, Peter Lavine says, trauma represents the tyranny of the past. And the whole point is to liberate

past. And the whole point is to liberate ourselves from the tyranny of the past.

So that we're not affected, we're not under the influence, we're not dominated by the impact of what happened to us in our formative years. So that recognizing all that

is taking responsibility.

It's my responsibility to be in the present.

But I can do that much better if I understand where those influences came from.

So what am I supposed to do? Am I

supposed to remember the past or what you're talking about? Or am I supposed to actually shake the etch a sketch and just be totally present and and say that the past doesn't define me?

Recently, I'll tell you this interesting story. I'm about to do this show on PBS

story. I'm about to do this show on PBS called Finding Your Roots.

Okay?

And they gave me old photographs of my family. Um my mother has given me old

family. Um my mother has given me old photographs of my my grandparents and my great-grandparents in India.

And just looking at the photos moved me to tears.

Yes.

But this this idea this philosophy of looking at these traumatic events and your trauma doesn't define you.

To me there's a there's an implication or you're implying hey you have to let that go.

Let me ask you let me ask you did your family go through that terrible partition and all the violence and Yes. of 1947. on both sides, mass

Yes. of 1947. on both sides, mass killings of Muslims, rapes and all Hindus, you know.

Okay.

Well, first of all, trauma is multigenerational.

Okay. It's passed on from one generation to the next. Not because we mean to, but because we do. It's just like it's a theme that runs through the generations.

And I passed my traumas onto my kids. I

didn't mean to, but I did. Your parents

did. They didn't mean to. Your ADHD is a legacy of trauma. there's a legacy of stress when you're you know now formulate your question again because I really want to answer it it's an important one I just want to make sure

exactly what you're asking yeah I think what I what I'm what I'm trying to say is uh so often

the thing I love about my children and when I really see my children or when I'm on stage and I'm really connected to the audience

I'm actually in the present totally.

I'm not defined by your Hassan Minhage.

You were born September 23rd, 1985.

Yeah.

You were born in Sacramento, California.

You're from an Indian-American Muslim. I

am just in this moment in this period of time. I am with Dr. Gabbor Mate. The

time. I am with Dr. Gabbor Mate. The

time is 10:20 and I am having the time of my life. And I'm not bound by any weight of the past.

I get it. There's a part of me that's like on some level, don't we need to forget the past to move forward or at least forgive what that was?

Uh to to move forward.

So here's I understand what I just heard you say.

Yeah.

When you're on stage uh connecting with an audience, Yeah.

you're in a genous state of flow, what state of flow.

Yes.

And and I'm not defined by the worst thing that's happened to me.

No. or the worst things that have happened to my parents.

You're totally in the present.

Yeah. Totally in the present.

Yeah.

So, you're not defined by the tyranny of the past at that point.

Yeah. Totally.

Um you're open. Now, flow is an interesting word because at that point, you would probably agree although your

personality and your knowledge and your wit and your mind certainly helps you, but there's something flowing through you.

Yes. You're not creating it as such.

You're the vehicle for creation.

Yeah.

Would that be accurate?

Correct.

Okay.

It feels like magic.

Yeah. Well, it's the same way when I'm on stage and I'm talking to an audience.

Like I'll be talking to 3,500 people here in New York tonight. Believe me,

I'll be in a state of flow.

Yeah.

And I'll be present next morning with my wife.

Oh, no. Don't say it. Don't say it.

I might I might not be in that state of flow.

Oh, no. You know, so there's something happens with people that have that sensitivity and that creativity and that's where art actually comes from and when there's something greater that

moves through you that's not defined by the past.

Mhm.

So that's true. And um it you know part of my problem is that I love that state so much uh it tends to be a bit addictive to go

there.

Sure. and not to deal so much with the messy great nitty-gritty reality of everyday life.

Yeah.

Which is a lot more full of stumbles and and and blockages.

Yeah. And just traffic and responsibility.

Yeah. Yeah. And the laundry and the laundry.

Totally. Bureaucracy nonsense calls.

Yeah. Totally.

But I get it then and that that's a gift that you have, you know. So,

but I also want to hold both of us accountable here is at what point does character come into play? I'll give you an example.

Yeah. You know, you hear this often, specifically with guys and their dads.

You know, my dad had a temper.

Yeah.

You know, he was like a rice cooker that could explode.

Many dads had this. And there's two types of children. There are some people that that temper gets retweeted. And

there's other kids who are like, I will not blow up. I will not be that person. But

blow up. I will not be that person. But

I feel that Tasmanian devil of dad inside of me. Well, first of all, I was one of those dads.

Um, my son Daniel with whom I wrote The Myth of Normal.

Yeah.

He actually writes in the book that growing up with me or that family, it was like when the floor wasn't the floor, you never knew when the safety and the security would disappear and the

floor would just open up because there would be these emotional explosions, you know. Um,

know. Um, but what do you mean by character?

Character means there is a choice you can make to break the cycle. You have

your wits about you. You have agency.

You know what you're doing. This is why I sometimes go into the self-hatred thing. Come on, man. You know what

thing. Come on, man. You know what you're doing. This is me talking to

you're doing. This is me talking to myself. I'm not talking to anybody else.

myself. I'm not talking to anybody else.

Do you know something? I've had the experience of going into a rage, watching myself going into a rage, knowing that it wasn't right, and I had

no power not to go into it at the same time. No, I'm not making excuses. It's

time. No, I'm not making excuses. It's

my responsibility. Yeah. And I know the harmful impact on the people around me.

But here's what happens. Um

there is a part of the brain, the preffrontal cortex, the gray matter right here in the front.

Uhhuh.

And then there's another part here called the orbital frontal cortex, which is next to the eye socket. It's like

right here. When people go somebody's local, that's what that's what they're pointing at.

Oh, they're pointing to this the upper right. Yeah. The job of these this part

right. Yeah. The job of these this part here amongst others is what's called um response flexibility that when something happens I have the flexibility. So if my

wife doesn't show up at the airport to pick me up I could respond with rage and you know disappointment and a sense of abandonment or I could say oh that's disappointing. Too bad I'll take a taxi

disappointing. Too bad I'll take a taxi home. You know that's called a response

home. You know that's called a response flexibility.

This part here impulse control. when an

impulse arises I don't have to act it out I can say oh I'm feeling anger but I don't have to act out the anger sure you know and the impulse regulation now

in certain people these circuits don't develop as well as they should number one and number two at that moment the deeper

emotionally and defensive and aggressive circuits of the brain take over so when you say somebody's lost it you know I I just lost it. What did they lose? They

lost impulse uh regulation and response flexibility. Those are trauma effects.

flexibility. Those are trauma effects.

But but no, no, no. But here's what I'm going to say.

Sure. Sure.

That's not an excuse.

Yeah.

I'm not here to excuse anything. What

I'm saying is if you realize that about that, it's your job to go to work to grow up. And growing up is I don't mean

grow up. And growing up is I don't mean as a moral imperative. I mean get into therapy. Do something to develop these

therapy. Do something to develop these circuits. Do something so that you can

circuits. Do something so that you can be a responsible human being. That's

totally on me.

Yeah.

So, I can't use the past as an excuse, but I can understand the past to know what I have to overcome, what I have to I think I think Gabbor, and I mean this, you know, as someone who's a fan of your work,

I think Zoom therapy is overrated. And I

know you're a therapist, but it it because it's passive. You need to be active. I'll give you another example.

active. I'll give you another example.

When I was a kid, my cousins will tell you this. Yeah.

Okay. My cousins and other friends that I went to school with, I was a smaller kid and I would sometimes get bullied.

Yeah.

And I would bite. So, my cousins have told me this. My sisters told me this.

When you were living, I would bite other kids.

Yes.

Yeah.

I would feel threatened and I would bite them usually on the forearm or upper arm where it's kind of fleshy and doughy.

I would say, "Oh, there's some bobka."

And then bam. And I'd hit them.

Mhm.

Top two teeth, bottom teeth. And I was a biter.

I'm 39 years old. I almost never bite people now.

I'm relieved to hear that.

Yeah. I haven't bitten my sister in two years.

Oh, that's great.

At least.

Congratulations. What I'm trying to say is I made a choice to not bite.

At some point I had to say I'm not biting at a point when you had the maturity to make the choice.

Yes. Then let's talk about that then.

What is the age of Come on, man. This

isn't ser you're being unserious. You

have to grow up.

I I totally own what you're saying.

You're like, Hassan, you're being emotionally.

And by the way, let's just go back to your biting.

Yeah.

If you're a small kid being bullied, Yeah.

can you see how biting might be a totally natural response? Oh, I I totally got why I did it.

Yeah, it was it's a natural preventive defensive response. Yes.

defensive response. Yes.

And it's an explanation. It's also an expression of your own frustration. You

know, a more interesting question is when you're bullied, who did you talk to about it?

Uh nobody.

Sorry.

Nobody.

Right.

Yeah. Yeah.

That's where your trauma was. If your

kids were bullied, who would you want them to talk to?

Hopefully me. If you found out that your kids were bullied and they suffered and they didn't talk to you, how would you explain that?

Can you ask me the question again? I'm

sorry.

I'm asking a question and I know this is a hard one.

Yeah.

And this is typical when people's minds go offline.

Yeah.

Is because if it's a painful one.

If your kids were bullied Yes.

and they suffered humiliation, shame, pain fear.

Yeah. Of course. Yeah.

And they did not talk to you about it, how would you explain why my kids are not talking to me? Oh, I couldn't explain. I'd be very hurt. I'd be sad

explain. I'd be very hurt. I'd be sad that they didn't tell me.

Yes, but I'm not asking you how you'd feel. I'm asking you how would you

feel. I'm asking you how would you explain why they're not talking to you.

Probably because on some level I have not created a channel for them to talk to me or they're processing they don't have they don't feel safe with you.

Yeah. They don't feel Yeah.

They don't trust you.

Yeah.

What's it like for a kid not to feel safe and trust with the parents? What's

it like for a kid? That

must be terrifying. Yeah. It's

terrifying. Yeah.

That was your childhood.

You know, my parents listening to this podcast are not going to be happy with this.

Well, I Your parents did their best.

Yeah.

They did their trauma. I did my best with my kids. I'm telling to you I'm telling to your parents and your parents are probably close to my age. I don't

know. But um

Yeah. They're a little Yeah. They're

around your age. Yeah.

Yeah. Um dear parents of Hassan, you did your best. That was your best because of

your best. That was your best because of the traumas that you had undergone.

Sure.

So there's nobody nobody's being blamed here. But what I'm saying is um

here. But what I'm saying is um that there was a trauma there for you of not having that safety and security.

And um when you talk about therapy um it's actually about understanding all that stuff but not just understanding it

working it through the body so that it doesn't dominate you anymore.

Yeah. You understand right now though, Gabbor, there's two major camps here when it comes to parents and forgiving parents. Yeah.

parents. Yeah.

And I'll tell you what the two camps are. Yeah. And this really is the

are. Yeah. And this really is the Democratic and Republican party of of parent therapy. Okay. There's two camps.

parent therapy. Okay. There's two camps.

There's number one, and this has been a huge movement.

Radical transparency.

Talk to your parents at Thanksgiving.

Tell them how you feel. Tell them what happened and bring receipts. And then

there's another camp which is your parents did their best. live and let live.

But I have a lot of friends and I did go to therapy and this is where the therapist did lead me down the wrong path where she said unload the clip and

just go rattat.

Dad, you're always late. Dad, you're a psycho. Mom, how many times have I told

psycho. Mom, how many times have I told you the iPad goes here? Dad, stop

texting me. Hi, this is Dad. The whole

thing. Well, look, if you're presenting with two bad choices, uh, then there's going to be no way out. But that's I don't see it as split into those two camps, one or the other, and there's no other reality.

I think radical transparency and demanding miaulpas from a 76-y old with a hip replacement is the equivalent of you pulling out a Tommy gun and shooting up an old man.

My my son D and I are writing a new book. It's called Hello Again, a fresh

book. It's called Hello Again, a fresh start for parents and adult children.

It's got nothing to do with demanding me of culpits. It's got nothing to do with

of culpits. It's got nothing to do with taking a machine gun and shooting some 70 old hip replacement. It's got to do with each partner, each person

understanding their own role in the relationship and their own responsibility in the relationship. Your

healing does not depend on blaming your parents.

It does depend on understanding what happened to you. But understanding what happened to you doesn't mean blaming your parents.

Fact is you were bullied and there's nobody for you to talk to about it.

That's deeply painful and that happened in your family of origin. But I'm not blaming your parents.

Your parents did their best. It's for

your parents should they choose to Yes.

to recognize what happened and to say you know Hassan um that was reality.

That was our reality.

Right. But your healing doesn't depend on them acknowledging anything.

You don't depend on them for your healing. That's totally your

healing. That's totally your responsibility.

I don't see this dichotomy really between the two.

You're saying both things can exist at the same time. They did their best.

Yeah.

And and and by their best then as children, do we owe them some gratitude for doing their best? I mean, that's quite the effort. If you were in the gym and you did your best.

Yeah.

Your personal best on bench press.

You see, I'm I'm not You deserve some credit.

I'm not interested in owing. And owing

is like a should that you lay. I don't

tell anybody what they should do.

I'm saying that when somebody recognizes that yes, my parents really had issues that prevented them from seeing who I was from from from supporting me the way

I needed to supported. So here's the thing I would ask you. Are you the same person now that you were 30 years ago?

That's a complicated answer. I would say yes and no. In some ways people who grew up with me are like you're the same guy I grew up with.

in terms and then in other in other ways I'm a very you know different person.

So you've been able to grow.

Yeah, I've been able to grow in church.

The more you're able to grow and the less you are effect the less you under the effect of the past the more gratitude will naturally arise. So I'm

not saying to anybody you should be grateful. There's no point me telling

grateful. There's no point me telling anybody how they should feel. But I'm

saying that gratitude I can tell I can tell you a quick encapsulated story if you like.

If we're not pressed for time, please share the story. I'm not pressed for time.

Okay great.

Um, so this story of my own infancy, uh, where I'm 11 months of age and my mother gives me to a total stranger, right? This is during World War II,

right? This is during World War II, during Second World War.

Yeah.

Nazi occupied Hungary, severe, vicious anti-semitism, threat of genocide, and I'm sick and I'm hungry. And my mother just can't keep me

hungry. And my mother just can't keep me alive.

So she gives me to a stranger in the street who takes me to some relatives living on relatively better circumstances and they look after me.

Now all my life I've had this deep sense of resentment um of the unfairness of life.

Uh why did this have to happen to me?

Um, and I've had a lot of mother anger because the infant who's given to a stranger, it doesn't matter how what the motives are, just perceives themselves as being abandoned. There's no other way

the infant can see themselves.

Yeah.

Deep sense of abandonment that shows up 50 years later in my relationship with my wife. Okay, that's a really tragic

my wife. Okay, that's a really tragic story on the one hand. Or I could look at it this way. Think of the amount of love it

this way. Think of the amount of love it would have taken on the part of a 24 year old mother to give their infant after her her own parents had been killed in Ashwitz and her husband is

away in forced labor and he doesn't she doesn't know if he's dead or alive the husband and she's got this infant the infinite love would have taken on my

mother to give me to a stranger to save my life the love of the universe that shows up in this Christian woman who takes his

Jewish infant and conveys him to these relatives the love of the universe that's manifested in his relatives living under terrible

circumstances than to take in this sick baby and to look after me. So I could look upon the same story as a one of bitter unfair cruelty

or I could say look at all the love that's in it.

These days I'm really aware of the gratitude for all the love at its core essence. What do people need?

Well, it depends at what stage. So

here's what children need. Children need

unconditional secure attachments, but they're welcomed in the world for exactly who they are. Not because

they're cute, cuddly, and compliant or competitive, but because they are.

Period. within.

That's unconditional love.

Unconditional love.

I accept you as is.

Totally as you are.

And there's no amount of kuman or piano.

No.

Or accomplishment.

No, it's got nothing to do with accomplishment. It's got to do with

accomplishment. It's got to do with being, you know. And it's interesting.

So what you're talking about is inaliable human a human right to love.

Exactly.

And to be loved.

Totally. Which is actually a need of the human child just as much as oxygen is.

Okay.

Okay. Secondly,

rest. So the child doesn't have to work to make the relationship with the parent work. If your father is an alcoholic for

work. If your father is an alcoholic for example, very often children get to be the peacemakers in a family. Yes. Now

they have to work to make the relationship work. That's devastating

relationship work. That's devastating for the child's development.

Thirdly, I mentioned human beings are born with this whole set of emotions, this circuitry, anger, fear, seeking,

playfulness, lust, um fear, uh grief, right?

The human child has to be able to experience those emotions when life demands it.

Yes.

And to be able to express them and to have those emotions understood, accepted and validated by the parents.

Yeah.

So these are some of the needs of children. Adults need more. They do need

children. Adults need more. They do need a sense of belonging, a sense of meaning, a sense of purpose, a sense of value that has got nothing to do with

how successful they are or how pretty they are or how um much they please or don't please other people. Right?

people. Right?

So we do have we do need a sense of belonging, of acceptance, of meaning, of purpose. These are human needs.

purpose. These are human needs.

frustrate these human needs, you're gonna get all kinds of dysfunctional behaviors.

And in the United States right now, for example, there's been this um every year in the United States, last few years running, twice as many people

a year die of drug overdoses as Americans who died in the Vietnam, Iraq, and Afghan wars put together.

Wow. So, you're talking about the overdose on fentinol and opioids and all those things. Yeah,

those things. Yeah, these have been called deaths of despair. And what's happened is that and

despair. And what's happened is that and this is recognized I think on all sides.

Young men in the states have lost their sense of belonging and purpose and meaning because the industrial heartland has been hollowed out and now they have

no sense of meaning and purpose. They

turn in desperation to drugs or to radical politics, you know. And so um people don't need a sense of meaning, purpose, belonging. Take that away from

purpose, belonging. Take that away from them, you're going to get all kinds of dysfunction. So these are human needs.

dysfunction. So these are human needs.

Yeah.

And everybody on all sides needs a sense of purpose, meaning acceptance and belonging.

Sometimes we get them from the wrong sources.

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want to talk about something that's really interesting about the mindbody connection, but specifically with intuition.

Yeah.

People love your work because they go, "Oh my god, Dr. Gabbor mate is saying I should trust my gut. It's scientifically

connected to my head. I should trust my heart.

But when do we delineate between your intuition being something that is telling you the right thing?

Yeah.

Or your intuition is anxiety and self-doubt and self-sabotage.

Well, those things are not intuition.

Those things are emotional dynamics based on confusion and trauma.

But sometimes you have anxiety reflux in your gut.

Oh, yeah. Yeah, it shows up in the gut all the time.

It shows up in the same area, but it doesn't feel the same.

Like when you have a strong gut feeling about something, there's a kind of certain knowledge about it and a certain degree of um ease about it.

Yeah.

Um when you're having a strong emotion, there's usually perturbation and tension around it. So I'd say on the body level,

around it. So I'd say on the body level, you can tell the difference by what you're experiencing inside. So um the um the spiritual teacher Echarolei who

lives in Vancouver like I do um he says and I've learned a lot from his work. He

says somewhere that uh emotions are the body's reaction to the mind.

Yeah.

Whereas gut feelings are the body's reaction to the external environment. So

that without gut feelings animals don't survive do they?

Sure.

And human beings evolved in nature.

Yeah. And for millions of years and hundreds of thousands of years until a blink of an eye ago, we all lived in nature. So gut feelings were essential

nature. So gut feelings were essential for survival. And they just tell us is

for survival. And they just tell us is it safe? Is it not safe? Uh emotions are

it safe? Is it not safe? Uh emotions are more complex and emotions are uh very much affected by what we believe and our

perceptions and our and our past dynamics. And so um they're not the same

dynamics. And so um they're not the same as gut feelings. So it can be confusing.

But when I look at people on this question of gut feelings versus emotions, I just direct them back into the body and say, "Let's what's the body experience here." If there's a gut

experience here." If there's a gut feeling, there's going to be a kind of a calm knowing about it. If there's a strong emotion, it's going to be tense. That's

the big difference. Got it? So, when

it's self-doubt, self-sabotage, I'm not good at this. I'm not worthy.

You know, you're going to [ __ ] this up.

You know this isn't going to go well.

That isn't your gut talking. That's your

anxiety talking.

Not at all. That's your anxiety talking.

So even if you feel it in your body, that's something else though.

You you're always going to feel it in your body because emotions are literally physiological things. There's no mind

physiological things. There's no mind body separation. You see, it's not

body separation. You see, it's not possible to have an emotion without your body being involved.

What's a tool people can use to determine what's what what part of their body is talking to them? cuz sometimes

when I woke up this morning, my lower back was hurting, but that might just be my back telling me I'm old.

It could be a number of things. Um,

could be that you have a bad mattress, but that's what I'm saying. How how do you determine this? But this is a a key

determine this? But this is a a key Well, well, if something if something is chronic, it keeps showing up, there's usually something going on.

Interesting. You shouldn't mention back pain. There used to be a back specialist

pain. There used to be a back specialist here in New York.

Yeah.

His name was John Sarno. S A R N O. He's

no longer alive. He died not that long ago in his 90s, right?

And Larry David and a whole lot of other people swear by him because he was a back specialist and he saved thousands of people from back surgery cuz he pointed out that their chronic back pain

was a result I would also say of unresolved emotion particularly repressed anger and so that muscles tighten and blood supply gets cut off.

It's not that the back pain was imagined, but that the source of it wasn't the physical X-ray findings or mechanical, but repressed emotion. So,

somebody with chronic back pain, I'd want to talk to him about what's happening to them emotionally. And

Sarno, who's written a number of books, and a lot of very famous people swear by him, his point of view was much the same as mine. The difference is he was a back

as mine. The difference is he was a back specialist. I was a general uh

specialist. I was a general uh physician. So I looked at all manner of

physician. So I looked at all manner of illness and all all kinds of chronic conditions as related to people's emotional lives. He specifically looked

emotional lives. He specifically looked at people's back pain, but we came to the same conclusion. So if you had chronic back pain, I don't want to talk to you about what's going on in your life. You're a trauma expert and one of

life. You're a trauma expert and one of the things that I think is so interesting is that you not only talk about personal trauma, but you've also been very outspoken about political trauma.

Oh yeah. Yeah.

When we think about politics and what we're seeing right now in the United States and in the Middle East, how would you diagnose what's happening and the trauma that has happened in the Middle East in that region and the United

States involvement in that region? I've

said this uh publicly before. I went in my bed till I was 13 years of age. And

um when I was 8 years old or nine, I remember my mother taking me to a psychologist.

And a psychologist took a history of my infancy and early childhood. And I

remember him saying this. I was in the room when they said this to my mother and he said, "Ma'am, if the only problem based on what happened to him as an infant,

if the only problem this boy has is that he bets his bed, you'll be very fortunate."

fortunate." Oh wow.

No, as my family could tell you, that's not the only problem I have.

Sure. That was the beginning.

No, I first visited Gaza in 1992, 1991 in the West Bank.

Um, in 2004 there was a study of gods and children that appeared in a international psychiatric journal.

Uh, if anybody if anybody thinks that history began on October the 7, 2023, they need to know this. In 2004, there

was a study in the in the journal of psychiatry about Gazan children. This is

two years before Hamas took power in Gaza.

2 and a half% of those kids had no traumatic symptoms. Large number had severe post-traumatic symptoms. They wet their beds like I did. They were aggressive towards their

did. They were aggressive towards their parents.

They had nightmares, depression, anxiety based on the collective trauma that has been imposed on the Palestinian people in the name of my people, the Jewish

people.

And then I visited uh the West Bank in 2022 to work to do a workshop, a trauma workshop for young women being tortured

in Israeli prisons. And the the mass torture of thousands of Palestinian prisoners has been documented by

Israeli Physicians for Human Rights, by Betelum, the Israeli human rights or organization, by the United Nations, by all kinds of other uh international

humanitarian organizations.

This is all before October the 7, 2023.

So the Palestinian people now there's no arguing about Jewish trauma. I mean my people were horribly traumatized as the whole world knows as they should know.

Not just in the Second World War but of course even before.

Now we've transposed that trauma onto the Palestinians.

We continue to.

And in my adult life, in my conscious life, I've never seen as anything as horrible as what is inflicted on the Gazan people right now and on the

Palestinian people. It's almost every

Palestinian people. It's almost every day that some Palestinian kid gets killed by Israeli forces, not in Gaza, in the West Bank. It's never reported in

the Western Press. So what's happening is a horrible collective traumatization.

I recently read wrote a wrote a forward for a new book by a Palestinian psychiatrist Dr. Sama Jabar and she used to be head of psychiatry for Palestine

and I wrote a forward for her book which is coming out very soon.

In her book Dr. Jabbar writes, "How do I diagnose and deal with the suicidal depression of an 81-year-old man who

comes to me with the suicidal depression because the home that he built with his own hands 20 years ago, nor they're forcing him to demolish with his own

hands?" What do I do? Give him Prozac?

hands?" What do I do? Give him Prozac?

So what we're talking about here is an almost unprecedented massive traumatization of a whole people

which is cheered on by the west and not even reported on a daily basis. It's

the worst thing I've seen in my whole life. It breaks my heart every day. I

life. It breaks my heart every day. I

grew up in um Northern California.

uh during the war on terror and in the Sacramento community, there were a lot of Afghani refugees that came and Iraqi refugees that came.

Yes.

As a byproduct of the Iraq and Afghanistan war. And a lot of those kids

Afghanistan war. And a lot of those kids were teenagers or even younger than me.

Yeah.

And they came from deep and deeply traumatic experiences from war. And I would often times think to

war. And I would often times think to myself, well, where will the trauma and how do we fix this trauma or how do we heal this trauma?

Um, based on the work that you've done and what you've seen, are you optimistic about the future, what can be done so that this trauma does not continue or or

the trauma is healed? when I was in Palestine three years ago and anybody wants to there's a film called Where the Olive Trees Weep that's

available online where where where I'm briefly featured during this particular workshop with traumatized women but when I was there 3 years ago and just to give credit where credit is due I was there

because of the support of Israeli Jewish psych psychologists so there were Israeli Jews who wanted to help the Palestinians and wanted to help this healing work to them so I'm not making this a Jewish versus

Muslim or Jewish versus Palestinian issue. I'm making this a human issue.

issue. I'm making this a human issue.

Human beings on both sides.

Unfortunately, one side wields all the power and has intentions that are nefarious as far as I'm concerned. But I

was told that that there's no post-traumatic stress disorder here because the trauma is never post. It's

ongoing. And it is that film that won the academic award. um No Other Land um for best documentary. Yeah.

Which shows the daily assaults on the dignity and the possessions and the lives of Palestinians by Israeli settlers in the Israeli army in the West Bank. You probably heard that the

Bank. You probably heard that the Palestinian director was attacked a few weeks ago, lynched basically outside his own home and then

arrested by the Israeli army for protecting himself from these settlers.

So how do you heal trauma in the midst of the trauma? It when you it's almost impossible. So

impossible. So I you know for me is I I want and my intention and my prayers always is an end to suffering.

Yeah.

Um and I have had a very tough time in my spiritual practice to try to reconcile the suffering that

one experiences in their own life. But

now the the information overload that you feel.

Yeah.

And so much of adult life and modern adult life is witnessing and making sense of profound injustice.

Absolutely.

And human suffering. And I had this really powerful conversation with my dad and this is why, you know, I know he'll be listening to the podcast because they watch everything.

Um I give them so much credit. They did

their best and they gave me everything they possibly could. Yes, they But my dad said something that was just so beautiful that I that stuck with me and I'd love your take on it is he says and

this is what helps him sleep at night when he watches the news and sees everything that's happening um and he sees the injustices that are happening around the world in many

regions around the world is he said uh he goes Hassan I notice your generation is obsessed with this idea of justice of absolute justice

uh but he says that's going to be impossible in this physical realm.

Absolute justice is only possible in the hereafter in the spiritual realm with God.

And that helps him go to sleep at night.

Yeah.

And I've I've found some profound truth in that as well where where how do we even do the Microsoft Excel accounting of all the suffering and trauma

that humanity has endured?

It's a be it's a beautiful statement by your by your uh dad.

Yeah. except I can't go there because I don't have a worldview that gives me a an afterlife. Okay. So, let me give you

an afterlife. Okay. So, let me give you my secular version. My secular version of it.

Sure.

So, this morning I'm reading the Guardian newspaper.

It's about Ukrainian young men who enlist for the war to protect their homeland. And there's one Ukrainian man

homeland. And there's one Ukrainian man says, young man says, "When somebody kills your brother, don't you want to take revenge? When somebody wants to

take revenge? When somebody wants to steal your land, don't you want to fight back?" Now, we write out about the

back?" Now, we write out about the Ukrainians, but we don't write out about the Palestinians, even though they're defending their land, and they have been, and they've

been killed in large numbers for decades now.

Profoundly unjust. Now, how do we deal with that?

Well, there was a great Jewish sage that lived about 100 years before Jesus and he said about the task of healing the world and he said

the task is not yours to finish but neither are you free not to take part in it. In other words, the task of

writing this world, of promoting justice, it's a sacred calling that's with us through eternity. And how I make peace

through eternity. And how I make peace with that is not like your dad who blessed bless him believes in his

afterlife is going to be okay. The way I deal with it is while I'm here, am I contributing to that task? that's not

yours to mine to finish. It's not going to be done in my lifetime, but it's something I can contribute to and we can all contribute to it. So that's how I deal with it.

And even if you suffer through it, will you well it's suffering as the Buddha pointed out is part of life. So um it's a question of how we respond to that

suffering, you know, and uh so in that sense I'm with your dad like he's talking about something long term.

Yeah. Well, my dad is and I give him a lot of credit, which is human beings are deeply flawed and the period of times that we live through are incredibly finite.

Yeah.

And only God or some higher power, Yahweh, Bwan, whatever you want to call it, can really do the Microsoft Excel spreadsheet and

really give the true justice PNL and serve it. And that's what what gives him

serve it. And that's what what gives him peace.

I get it. And and I would also say that to go back to the earlier part of our conversation, when you're on stage, Yeah.

that's what's showing up is something much greater than you are.

Sure.

That's just flowing through you.

Um this has been a really beautiful conversation. Uh Dr. Gabbor Mate, you

conversation. Uh Dr. Gabbor Mate, you are 81 years old, correct?

Yeah.

I'm 39 years old. Yeah.

Give any final words of wisdom to impart people that are my age that are in the middle of their life what the second half looks like and what a meaningful second half of life should be. At your

age I had not yet begun the self-examination that you've already begun.

So I congratulate you on that. Um

I would say look to the inside as much as you look to the inside to the outside.

So, whatever you're responding to, whether it's your son's behavior or the injustice in the world out there or whatever challenges you may um

experience professionally or personally, look inward as much as you look outward.

And the truth is always going to be inside you if you have the means of finding it. So

that there's a lot of truth that you carry. Let it unfold, but it takes

carry. Let it unfold, but it takes attention.

Dr. Gabber, thank you so much for your time. Well, absolutely. My pleasure.

time. Well, absolutely. My pleasure.

Thank you. I appreciate you.

Yeah.

[Music] [Applause]