Nikhil Kamath x YouTube CEO, Neal Mohan | People by WTF Ep. 9

[Music] Yucky [Music]

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I remember reading this thing about Google offering you $100 million not to quit. Not today, but 15 years ago, which

quit. Not today, but 15 years ago, which was a lot of money. What is it? I like that you're

money. What is it? I like that you're waiting for the question and not reacting.

I want to see where you're going to take this.

We started over. It's rolling.

Okay. Can you define Neil Waves? What do

you think it is? Cuz I've tried and I'm I'm kind of like conflicted. I don't

know if the messaging has gone out in the manner that it should. But what is Waves really? Um well my understanding

Waves really? Um well my understanding is it's really the first time ever I think not just here in India but really anywhere in the world where there's been

such a um kind of meeting of everybody who has an interest and a stake in the creative industries uh with really the

purpose of um finding ways to accelerate it further certainly for India and Indian culture and Indian creators. Um

but I really think that it will have a global impact as a result. Um and I think you know kind of the the insight for me at least um was that the

recognition you know certainly on part of of the government but I think uh the creative industries in India in general the recognition that um you know India really is at the cusp of being a true

creator nation and I get to see it from my vantage point at at YouTube. Um I see it in the numbers. I see it obviously in everybody that I interact with whenever

I'm visiting India. But I think um that's the big vision. And I think what's really interesting about it is it's it's a mix of everything. There's

obviously the cultural and creative aspect of it, but there's also the business aspect of it. What's required

to be a successful creator? There's also

the collaborative aspect of it. There's

the private government partnership aspect. And I think Waves, at least in

aspect. And I think Waves, at least in my understanding, is trying to put all those pieces together.

Content creators and politics. Do you think they're more

politics. Do you think they're more they're getting more ingrained than they have ever been? Um, well, the way I think about it is Did you vote Republican or Democrat? Did I I'm not

going to get into all all my pieces.

I've been I've I've voted on both sides for a very long time. Let's put it let's put it that

time. Let's put it let's put it that way. You're asking so you're not asking

way. You're asking so you're not asking an India question. You're asking in general. I would say

general. I would say um it really goes back to the fact that um you know a place like YouTube is

uh yes it's a place for content creators and creators and YouTubers and most of what we all consume on on YouTube is is entertainment or learning or what have

you. But really, it's a it's an

you. But really, it's a it's an information platform. And our mission

information platform. And our mission statement is to give everyone a voice and show them the world. And so, if you think about that, what happens on YouTube is a reflection of what's

happening in the world. And vice versa.

And so the connection therefore between creativity on YouTube and politics or elections or societal conversations

um in if you look at it in that context shouldn't be a surprise and that's what we see in the US whether you're talking about you know the Republican party or the Democratic party um and it's what we

saw here in the elections the gigantic elections that happened here in in India last year and you know just happened in Canada yesterday and really all over the

world. So, if I were to make the

world. So, if I were to make the assumption that Trump utilized content creators better in the

previous election, does the platform that houses most of the content creators get to sway what should be heard since you

control the narrative? Uh, not the narrative, but who watches which narrative. Yeah, I really don't look at

narrative. Yeah, I really don't look at it that way at all. In fact, um I really think that it goes back to what I was saying, which is YouTube really is a

reflection of of what is happening in the world. And precisely, it's actually

the world. And precisely, it's actually meant to be a reflection of what's interesting to you in the moment. When

you open up the YouTube app, it really should be a reflection of Nikil's interests of the moment over some period of time. Uh doesn't mean that it's just

of time. Uh doesn't mean that it's just that. There's obviously we endeavor to

that. There's obviously we endeavor to show a diversity of content, but it's generally oriented around what we know to be of your personal interest based on

your viewing habits, etc. So, you as the user really are in the driver's seat in terms of what type of content you're looking for, what you're looking to view, and it's the job of the content

creators to be true to who they are, but then to use the YouTube platform to build an audience. And I say that, you know, YouTube in many ways is the the the the most efficient way of connecting

a creator like yourself with their audience wherever they are in the world.

But it's it's really just that you are the one responsible for actually producing the content that's interesting to people and I as a fan of yours um am only going to watch it to the extent

that I'm interested. And so that's fundamentally what happens on YouTube.

In your question about what happened in the recent elections in the US, um I do think that um uh news commentators, podcasters or who whatever you want to call them play

played a played a big role in that election. And I do think that candidates

election. And I do think that candidates that um got the word out as a result of engagement in what you know in generations past or years past would

have been overlooked as an outlet. um

ended up being successful because those podcasters had large audiences that were interested in what their guests had to say and um we saw that play out over and

over. Um you know I always say that the

over. Um you know I always say that the success of podcasts on YouTube it came into focus last year. You know,

obviously the elections were were kind of a pivotal point in the US, but it was like an overnight success many years in the making because when we first started investing in in podcasts, um, and I'm

curious what your experiences uh on our platform, we made like two or three really big bets that I think back then would have been kind of strange. Well,

the biggest is we bet on the fact that people would want to watch a conversation, not listen to it. Lots of

people listen to podcasts on YouTube, but lots of people watch it. And

obviously COVID was an accelerator when people were at homes, they wanted to see what was happening. But um there's an enormous amount of content, podcast content that's viewed uh not just on

mobile phones, but on television screens. So that was one. The second was

screens. So that was one. The second was really betting on discovery. So

discovery around not just podcasts that you're subscribed to, but like discovery around podcasts that you might be genuinely interested in. So that was a that was a really big part of it. So

posting the podcast and and going about it that way. And then the third piece is just recognizing that um it's not just about building an audience for podcasters, it's also helping them

monetize it. So really making it so that

monetize it. So really making it so that podcasts were integrated into our YouTube partner program monetization. So

those three bets really ended up being I think kind of foundational driver of our of our podcast strategy. So when I think

of podcasting Neil uh news has there is no information arbitrage when somebody is reporting the news for a long time the bias of the reporter is why I might

have watched one particular news channel over another. I feel recently people have

another. I feel recently people have gotten disillusioned by corporations owning news channels and assume the newscasters views will also

be biased and a podcaster seems to be more of a independent character so the bias of the corporation doesn't translate onto him. Do you think why

people are moving to podcast in the news information space? Um yeah, that's

information space? Um yeah, that's really interesting and I think um first I would say I think there's lots of reasons why why um podcasters

have moved to platforms like YouTube but also found success on it. But I think two comes down to two fundamental things. Um, one is they would only do it

things. Um, one is they would only do it if they felt that they could build an audience on YouTube. So that there was no barrier between them and the audience

that they were looking to build. No, my

question is more why is the audience choosing to know what happened in the world from a podcaster versus a news media channel?

Uh, I have to, you know, I'd say that I don't think it's an eitheror. So I would say and again just speaking from a what's happening on YouTube standpoint,

we see lots of success from what you would call traditional news channels. Um

they have adopted the YouTube style of content. Uh many of them have been

content. Uh many of them have been investing in the platform for a very long time. And I don't mean just clips.

long time. And I don't mean just clips.

I mean like full-on live news broadcasts, um replays of the broadcast, live streams in many cases. So really

kind of all the gamut of news and we have seen um their success on our platform as well especially when people are coming to YouTube looking for

information around politics um to use your example but you know whatever sort of thing impacts their lives we've seen that success now I think what a

podcaster does sort of to the extent that they're related to news is that they cover the news talk about the news but they also are doing it um through

the means and the tools of a creator right like so you know YouTube often times is about connecting with the person whose channel it is like it's not

just about what they said in that one particular video I as a fan am interested in that person in general like how do they go about their day what their interests are etc and so I think

the nice thing about podcasting on YouTube is it really combines both of those things if I were to push you a at Neil and ask you a binary answer to the

question. 5 years from today, will you

question. 5 years from today, will you be watching Fox or CNN to know what happened in the world that day or would you be watching a independent creator on

YouTube say what it is? I really don't think it's going to be one or the other.

Fox um had one of its most successful quarters months ever on YouTube. Just I

think just last month they reported it themselves. they've been investing and

themselves. they've been investing and credit to them, right? They've been

investing heavily in understanding uh this um uh but I also think alongside of that you're going to see other types of content like you said podcasters be

successful and I think some of that gets at sort of the inherent nature of YouTube which is it really can be all of these things. I mean two billion people

these things. I mean two billion people come to the platform every single day.

um the subset of them that are consuming news, there's going to be such enormous diversity in terms of their preferences, their priorities in terms of how they consume news on YouTube. So, I just

think that 5 years from now, you should expect to see more of that diversity, not less. I think if I were predicting

not less. I think if I were predicting anything, I don't think it would be a one or zero between those two types of options. I could very well see a third

options. I could very well see a third type of format get invented and find success on the platform. That's what's

amazing about about the creators on on YouTube is you never really know what they're going to experiment with and then come up with next. I know it's tough to put YouTube in a box, but if

you were to try and define what YouTube is today, what would you say it is?

Um um that's a great question. I would

say um I I think we are we are really our own thing. And and what I uh what I mean

own thing. And and what I uh what I mean by that is our ambition is to be a a a streaming service where you

can watch, create, and share video regardless of where you are in the world, who you are. Um and that's our goal. That's our mission. And what I

goal. That's our mission. And what I like about that is it really encapsulates everything from living room screens to television screens to um you

know your phone in your pocket uh to you know car radio all that sort of stuff.

We're not social media. We're not a place where you go to connect or share with your friends. You're primarily

there to watch video. Um and we're not sort of linear traditional television either. Um, we're sort of our own thing

either. Um, we're sort of our own thing because of the nature of the content that's created on our platform. Being a

creator-led content generation platform, are you more a place where content is stored and then streamed? Do you think the

then streamed? Do you think the technology of doing that defines YouTube more? Or are you a curator of content

more? Or are you a curator of content which shows me what I want to see more?

Um, I think the term create curator is a is a bit of a loaded term and because we don't curate the content. We've tried in in the past. We had something called

YouTube originals. It wasn't successful.

YouTube originals. It wasn't successful.

So, we don't do that. what we do. I the

the analogy that I use that I think I think sort of works best is most of the people at YouTube uh are software engineers or technologists and our job is to build

the stage and I want that to be the best possible stage in the world. When you

come to the stage to this theater, the most comfortable seats, the best view lines, the most amazing, you know, effects or what have you. Um but that's it. That's what we do. The people that

it. That's what we do. The people that are on the stage are our creators. And

so we have to create the tools and capabilities that make them shine the best possible stage and make viewers really want to keep coming back to that

theater. And I think that's the best

theater. And I think that's the best really the best way to describe uh what YouTube is and and what YouTube does. So

build the technology and then frankly get out of the way.

So, is YouTube the show director which picks which show goes on at what time?

Or are you somebody who built the theater? We are really someone who built

theater? We are really someone who built the theater, right? We don't

um I don't tell you when to post or what you should say. You have exercised that creative control. Well, back to your

creative control. Well, back to your point on podcasters. I multiple

podcasters will tell me that they have they've had more creative and editorial control by taking their destiny into their own hands than they ever had in sort of any other uh type of their

profession in the past. And that's what YouTube is. You get to decide those

YouTube is. You get to decide those things. What I need to do for you is to

things. What I need to do for you is to give you the technology that allows you to match with your audience. not just

you know the person who subscribes to your channel um but you know who but who might be who who else might be interested in it um you know you produce

um content and have conversations that might be interesting to an English listener somebody who understands English but of course this conversation

might uh apply to somebody speaking Spanish or Portuguese or Tamil or Bengali and so I should provide you the technology so you choose if you choose

choose to have to allow for this conversation to happen in all those languages as an example. So that's what I mean by like we build the theater, we kind of build the rooms in the theater, we build the stage, we build the seats,

but you're the one who's on the stage. So Neil, I'm 38 years old. Uh I

stage. So Neil, I'm 38 years old. Uh I

have grown up in India largely in Bangalore.

So my relationship with content went from watching Hindi TV serals growing up

on TV on traditional broadcast TV uh to cricket and then maybe getting my first personal device or a medium to

consume content when I was 16 or 17 years old.

uh to where I sit today and you know the movie theatergoing experience all of that followed where I sit today I'm trying to predict where nikil the

48-year-old will be what content will he be consuming on what medium uh can you throw some light on that yeah I would

say a few things might be different in 10 years first I would say that everything we've talked out. Uh I still think that we're in the early innings of

um meaning that the growth of content in general, but uh you know, YouTube content is going to only continue to grow on screens like the living room.

We're just getting started there. I

would say that probably the biggest early stage sort of phenomenon that I see that I'm very excited about and actually a lot of it is being driven by what's happening here in India is just this whole idea of like creator-led

content production. So it's like you

content production. So it's like you know creators are the startups of Hollywood and I mean Hollywood I mean Bollywood I mean kind of just whatever pick your metaphor there uh and just

like startups keep an industry vibrant just like in Silicon Valley creators do the same thing um when it comes to the production of content so in 10 years

this relatively new phenomenon which you know I'm cons consider at least for young people is pretty mainstream but I think for the general population it's not quite quite there yet. I think is

going to be pretty mainstream. You know,

when I go visit um uh Burbank in California, right down the street from the largest studio in the world, 100-year-old studio, Disney, uh there

are all of these startup studios led by creators like Rhett and Link, Alan Chicken Chow, etc. 10,000 square foot studios where they're producing amazing content. It's done differently. It's

content. It's done differently. It's

done in a very YouTube style. it's done

with their personalities, but they're doing, you know, kind of roughly what big studios were doing before. They're

just doing it on a different sort of scale, different budgets, etc. So, I think that's going to be a really big phenomenon. I think the other one that's

phenomenon. I think the other one that's very exciting is um you know, the advent of AI and what AI will be able to do for creativity. My view is that it's really

creativity. My view is that it's really going to be a tool that enhances human creativity, never replacing it. We can

talk more about that. I think again, you know, you gave the example from sort of you growing up and sort of how these various things sort of came into play for you. I think if you think about it

for you. I think if you think about it through the lens of young people today, the things that they take for granted um were things that and I'm a little bit older than you, so I had to discover

this even even later in my life. They

just they just have been having that experience from from day one. And so I think you know one of the things that um people shouldn't forget when it comes to the content world is like ultimately

consumers really are in charge. They

really vote with their time and their engagement. And today a young person um

engagement. And today a young person um uh almost expects all of their favorite content to really be in one place.

Everything from a 15-second short to a 15 minute vlog to an hourong podcast, 15 hour gaming live stream and 4-hour NFL game, you know, three-hour cricket game.

They expect it to be in one place and be able to consume that on whatever surface and device that they want. And so that sort of like plethora of consumer choice 10 years from now is going to be even

more dramatic than it is today because those young people have had that expectation since day one. So, building

on that last thought, in the future, if you're competing with say Netflix for mind share, will you become more like Netflix or will Netflix become more like

YouTube? I mean, it's a it's I I think

YouTube? I mean, it's a it's I I think that our approach is going to be thero approach that you've seen on YouTube.

You should expect that same approach uh going into the future. Like I said, we produce the stage. We will be the leaders when it comes to technology.

Whether it's our investment in AI and the algorithm in terms of how the product looks and feels, all the bells and whistles we build for creators, you should expect us to continue to do that.

But it's going to be our creators that actually determine that sort of creative journey where it goes. And I like that because our creators are infinitely

creative. There are um you know 100

creative. There are um you know 100 million creators in India uploaded videos on YouTube. We have 15,000 creators in India over a million subs.

When I was here last just a few months ago uh that number was I think 11,000.

When I first started at YouTube like 10 years ago that number was like four or five. So just this proliferation of

five. So just this proliferation of amazing content, amazing creativity is what you know is what YouTube is today and that's what you should expect it to

be 5 10 years from now too for content like Hollywood and Bollywood. I've had

this conversation with a friend of mine who was recently putting out a movie. I know he did consider putting it

movie. I know he did consider putting it on YouTube straight up and charging a fee uh a smaller fee albeit but then comes in the concern of

piracy if he were not to go the theater or the multiplex route. Do you have any thoughts about that? If I'm a filmmaker Mhm. and I don't go to a multiplex or a

Mhm. and I don't go to a multiplex or a theater and I come to YouTube and I release a movie there, uh how do you prevent somebody from copying it and

republishing it? Um we have

it? Um we have uh for a long time invested very heavily in the DRM tools that that that try to prevent that from happening. Now, if

somebody is um screen grabbing and screen gaping in a particular way, it's it's really hard. And there's two aspects obviously of piracy. Um by the way, I might be able to guess who this

friend of yours is. I've heard this feedback directly from from him. So, um

I watched the movie. Yeah. Yeah. It

looks amazing. Yes. Yes. Um

uh there's two aspects to piracy. one is

the actual act of creating that copy and as I said things like DRM and what we do to sort of prevent against that at least create enough friction where it's not

trivial to do and then the other aspect of course is the distribution piece because like piracy is ultimately for viewership and if you can kind of choke that piece off then that's sort of

getting at one of the other use cases and that's where you know the fact that lots of content is ultimately distributed on YouTube we have that choke point around that type of uh um

content in conjunction with our policy.

So, it's a twofold approach. It's never

perfect from that standpoint, but I think um history has shown that we have a pretty good handle in terms of that type of content never running rampant on

YouTube. So, my audience, Neil, are

YouTube. So, my audience, Neil, are largely young Indian wannabe entrepreneurs. Mhm.

entrepreneurs. Mhm.

The line between a influencer and somebody who wants to start a business is fading in India like it is elsewhere in the world.

A lot of my people believe that to sell anything you need to build influence first either on YouTube or other social media and then you build a product on

top of that influence.

Now to them if me at 38 let's say today I spend 30% of my time on YouTube 30% of my my free time on YouTube 30% of my

free time on social media and the balance on broadcast news and the other platforms and Netflix and everything where should these people focus on building say somebody wants to

start a t-shirt brand m where should he build influence today and give me some tips for him to build influence there today. Yeah. So, I think the first thing

today. Yeah. So, I think the first thing that I would say is I wouldn't I wouldn't describe if that's your sole goal, then I would I would think about YouTube a a

bit differently. The way I think about

bit differently. The way I think about YouTube is it's really the home for creators. And I use that term creator

creators. And I use that term creator specifically as opposed to influencer or what have you because the primary purpose of your presence and investment

on YouTube has to be uh the act of creation about having an idea whatever the topic having whether it's funny whether it's sports whether

it's business and sharing it. So that's

if that's not really fundamentally the goal then I think it becomes a bit harder on YouTube. Now having said that if that is a goal then what I hear over

and over from YouTubers you know here in Mumbai but really all over the world is that YouTube is their home because it is a place where they

um have that connection to their audience in a way that is deeper and more authentic than they can get anywhere else. And so they keep coming

anywhere else. And so they keep coming back to that. Um you know Jimmy Donaldson Mr. beast has these five pillars of focus in his studio in his

office. The very first one is YouTube

office. The very first one is YouTube first because he knows that everything that he has derived uh has come from that investment on YouTube. And so if

you do that but do it through a creator mindset then I think it affords you a world of opportunities because then you can use that home base to build

audiences elsewhere or drive those audiences back. but more importantly to

audiences back. but more importantly to build all kinds of other businesses.

There's of course how you monetize content on YouTube through advertising or a cut of the ESVOD revenues. But

what's really interesting about YouTube is that if you want to write a book or if you have a clothing line or if you have um some other product that you're very excited about, YouTube can be the

home base by which you build all of those businesses over and over. And I

see that um happen with our top creators uh you know the Mr. Beasts of the world but really um you know millions of our creators um over over time. It's a kind

of a long answer but that's really but I think that's important because it's not a place that's a fly by night place. If

you were to replace the influencer in my question to content creator, say in me, Nikil wants to sell t-shirts. I need to create some kind of

t-shirts. I need to create some kind of content before I can go about selling my t-shirts. So, I have somebody watching

t-shirts. So, I have somebody watching my content where I can market this t-shirt. What will work today? What I'm

t-shirt. What will work today? What I'm

asking you is in a very euphemized manner, what is the YouTube algorithm to a lay man like me and what can I do today to succeed on it? Success in my

definition in this particular subject would be the number of views and distribution I get. Yeah, I would say that what the most important advice that I give to two pieces of advice that I

give to somebody thinking about building a career on YouTube. The first is um really think hard about what type of

content you're passionate about. So if

it happens to be t-shirts or something related to it. No, I want to sell t-shirts. I want you to tell me content.

t-shirts. I want you to tell me content.

Yes. But I don't I think that if your only goal in life is to sell t-shirts, then you better also really care and have passion around creating content. It

shouldn't be a means to an end, right?

Um so that that's what I meant by home of creators. uh because um if you don't

of creators. uh because um if you don't have passion around that, you're not going to be your authentic self and fans will figure that out very very quickly and you're not going to build a fan

base. And so the first and most

base. And so the first and most important thing that I would say is think hard about what you are really really excited about. Um, you know, we

work with all kinds of, you know, athletes on our platform and, um, it comes through really, really quickly when they're talking about something

that they're really excited about versus not, right? Like it's not just about

not, right? Like it's not just about throwing up a piece of content. And

that's super, super important because like the power of YouTube is that it's not just an algorithm of your favorite meme of the week or favorite, you know, what have you. It is about your face,

your you as the creator and you've built that because you talk about something authentically that your fans uh understand. That's really the most

understand. That's really the most important thing and I say that over and over. That's the difference between

over. That's the difference between somebody who's who stops doing it after a few months and that really continues.

The second um you know YouTube can be a bit of a slow burn. Um, and so if you are passionate about something, care deeply about it, give it time because

you want to um, set expectations with your audience about what you're going to talk about, what's your content going to be about, what are you going to do, and how you're going to go about doing it. And that

builds over time. And that builds in terms of followerships but it actually also builds in terms of you know the algorithm because the algorithm is just a reflection of the audience. So those

are the two most important things.

A really smart person once said about passion that the passion about something goes away when you truly understand something. Do you

something. Do you think what is passion to you? Because

the answer to my question, you said, you know, you should build around what you're passionate about. What is the definition of passion?

Oh, um, well, I think it is, uh, something that you have, uh, such deep and

abiding interest in that you would just keep doing it if it wasn't for all of these other goals as well. Is there

anything like that, Neil? Would you do something if what is what is that for you? Um you know my background is I am a

you? Um you know my background is I am a technologist by training. I've been

interested and you know let's say passionate about technology since I was a really young kid. Um I went to high school in Lucknau. I had a little uh software startup back in the day

building software for for for other high school kids and teachers. And so I've always had a deep and abiding interest in technology. But I have also from a

in technology. But I have also from a very very early days, for lack of a better term, been a

media junkie. Like I love stories in the

media junkie. Like I love stories in the general in broadest sense of the term.

Movies, music, sports. I'm a sports nut.

Um those are like two abiding passions I've had since I could like I was, you know, probably five or six years old.

And but you're talking about consuming something. I'm talking about you

something. I'm talking about you consuming practicing something? Uh well

I um I mean I do try to practice those things. I'm not very good at them. So

things. I'm not very good at them. So

that's uh uh in terms of my my my love of sports, but I'm highlighting it because um those are areas of of passion of mine and the way that I practice them

is what I do every day. I think that YouTube is one of the few places that combines both those passions that I have um both technology as well as media. And

so, you know, did I stumble upon this?

Probably like I got lucky that I was given given this opportunity. But those

really are a place where I get to work on technology in service of like the thing that I really love. The more I

think about passion and talent, Neil, in my life, it's starting to sound to me more as an output than as an input.

I believe I'm passionate or talented at something. When I do something and I'm a

something. When I do something and I'm a little bit better at it than my peer group. Uh I was having this conversation

group. Uh I was having this conversation with someone. If I believed that I was

with someone. If I believed that I was passionate about playing cricket and I played cricket for 10 years, trained really hard and sucked at it, I don't

think I would be passionate about cricket. So passion is almost an output.

cricket. So passion is almost an output.

Talent is almost an output.

less so an input to me today. Do you

think you were good at technology and hence you felt like you could be passionate about it? It's interesting. I

mean I think what you're describing is kind of like almost a flywheel or chicken and egg type of a thing.

Um I have always been passionate about sports for example, right? I played

little league, I played soccer, I played cricket. Um, I was never good enough to

cricket. Um, I was never good enough to But were you good? Were you better than the people you played with? I was okay.

But I But I but that interest still continues today. I love playing

continues today. I love playing basketball with myself. Are you

generally a modest person? Like I was asking your team earlier. They said

you're a quiet person. Uh, I am I tend to be a quiet person. Yes, that's

probably how my wife would describe me.

You seem more like a euphemism versus embellishment kind of person. My wife calls me even kill me

person. My wife calls me even kill me Neil. So that's uh that is I think a

Neil. So that's uh that is I think a pretty apt description. So you're not very emotive. Uh I can I can be emotive.

very emotive. Uh I can I can be emotive.

Uh I mean my kids would say that I can be emotive sometimes but uh I'm I'm pretty even killed in terms of my day-to-day in terms of how I go about myself. And I think part of it has to do

myself. And I think part of it has to do with I think perspective. Um I think that uh whether there's challenges that

you face in your work life or even in your personal life, they can be very very hard. But

very hard. But um you know keeping things in perspective is really often times the best way to to get through them. Is that

good for work? Um I think that it is good for work. I mean, I think the things that are really important um in my job leading YouTube is actually

having a level head to be because that allows for I think sort of the most well-considered judgment around things.

I I always say that, you know, by the time a decision comes up to me, uh it's usually a decision between two bad choices because if it was easier, then

it would have been made several levels below me in the organization. And so if that's the nature of the types of decisions I have to make, um I'd rather make them with a level head, a cool

head. Um I'd also like to make them

head. Um I'd also like to make them with, you know, principles that I've hopefully thought about well ahead of time. Um especially when it comes to

time. Um especially when it comes to difficult trade-offs. Um so yeah, I

difficult trade-offs. Um so yeah, I think it is a useful skill um in my professional life. You mentioned Lucknau

professional life. You mentioned Lucknau just now. uh you were born in the west

just now. uh you were born in the west in the US, came back for high school and then went back and I read that your father was from IIT who went to the US

to do his PhD. Mhm. Uh the one thing that stood out to me is you grew up on things like Transformers and Baseball and Star Wars. So even though you look

like me, you're not really somebody who grew up on the same diet of content as me.

Um, you know what I would say about that though, Nicole? Probably the biggest

though, Nicole? Probably the biggest reason for that is uh because you're younger than me. No, seriously, like I do think that I'm 51, so that that does that does make a bit of a difference.

Um, but you know, it's interesting like I so I like you said, I went to high school in in Lucknau. My dad I was born in in um uh in Indiana. My dad was

getting his PhD. So when my parents were were grad students was when I was born and um came back here for for high school and yes you know that was a part

of the diet that I grew up on. You know

Transformers and you know Star Wars and and all of that. Um but I'd say a couple things even back then and now we're I'm really dating myself so like you're talking like mid 80s.

Um a lot of those things had spilled over to my friends here. Um, but I would say uh not particularly uh a little bit a

little bit but I but the other the other thing though is like you know back to what we were talking about like um the these were specific types of interests but I think that if you broadened it out

you like I fell in love with cricket for example right away and why because I I liked all kinds of sports and so whether it was baseball or basketball growing up

or cricket when I was in high school, like the nature of the competition, um the nature of sort of teamwork and how those things happened like that was

like really natural for me and and also just lots of ways to have relationships and conversations with people. Um you

know, I loved a particular set of movies. Um but then you know I uh

movies. Um but then you know I uh remember watching what was popular here and actually you know back to back to media that was right around the time

that the media landscape here started to change dramatically too which was there was of course Bollywood and then you know what T-Series represented in Bollywood but it was also the advent of

things like Star. So that was like a precursor to a lot of what we're talking about today in terms of just changing the media diet through lots of choice

for example, right? And so that was a big sort of I think foundational thing for me when I was a kid. And I I think you know again people always find these

sorts of threads like in retrospect um to kind of sort of justify what they've done in the rest of their careers. But I

do think that like that early especially in those formative years of just falling in love with all these different types of media and storytelling was an important part of my childhood that I

sort of carried through because you know it was one of those things where growing up um in the US like I love baseball I

love I love you know Transformers etc. And then coming here where you know I sounded funny like I didn't have sort of like those immediate things to connect with people on but finding some of these

common ground types of things like sports like music etc was like really formative for me and I do think that that's probably back to your sort of

passion or interests like that's carried forward um in the rest of my career because I do think that like the one of the foundational things is we as human beings um are

storytellers. Like the way we connect

storytellers. Like the way we connect with each other is like telling stories.

Like I'll remember an anecdote about you in this conversation and you'll likely do that about me. Um well, I'll remember the the story. Yeah. The story you walked through in terms of your own

media diet evolution. Like obviously I know your bio, your enormous success professionally, but like that was an interesting anecdote that you told me that was like true to who you are,

right? And so you've been wealthy a long

right? And so you've been wealthy a long time. I remember reading this thing

time. I remember reading this thing about Google offering you $100 million not to quit. Not today, but 15 years ago, which was a lot of

money. What is it? I like that you're

money. What is it? I like that you're waiting for the question at this point and not reacting.

I want to see where you're going to take this.

What is it about, you know, there's a I can put you in a box, not in a bad way, but in the manner

that techie growing up, uh, IIT dad, I'm going to make the assumption and extrapolate that you were fairly nerdy growing up, Indian origin, making a lot

of money in the US in the last 20, 30 years.

When you come from that background to India, A, what is working for Indian origin people in the US who are

accomplishing as much as you are? And B,

when you come here, does projecting patriotism to India almost help open up a market

which you and your peer group believe will be really large going forward tomorrow?

Um when you say projecting patriotism, you mean like Indian professing a love for uh like this the admiration for India? No, I feel like deep down we are

India? No, I feel like deep down we are all wearing a mask. Mhm. The mask

changes depending on who we are sitting around.

uh now that the world is so connected the masks have become more nuanced cuz one mask in a certain geography can be viewed by another in another geography and YouTube has played a big part in

that. Mhm. So when you come to India now

that. Mhm. So when you come to India now Neil Moan the CEO of YouTube what masks work and what don't and which one do you

have on? Oh my goodness. Um well uh

have on? Oh my goodness. Um well uh hopefully I'm not very sophisticated in masks. So um I always like to think that

masks. So um I always like to think that it's what you see is what you get. Um

uh and by the way don't believe every single headline that you read even if it was 15 years old. So I'll I'll uh to start address the first part of your

question. Um, I would say that

question. Um, I would say that uh I mean again just in my in my particular role

um what's amazing about YouTube is it really is truly global like you just said like this this conversation uh you know you've had enormous success here in

India but you've had success all over the world and so I expect everything that we talk about here is going to be consumed not just here But really in every other part of the world and

hopefully what we're talking about is just as applicable in that sense. uh you

know when I when I come to India I mean I I I really um I'll say a few things that I've said before that I think um

really ring true is you see the enormous success of India on YouTube but in general in the creative and you know we started this conversation talking about waves uh in

the creative industries through numbers and data right like four out of five Indians is on YouTube um you know billions of hours of you know content

being created consumed 100 million channels uploading videos 15,000 over a million million subs um you know Indian

creators uh uh generated 21,000 crores uh uh $2.5 billion on YouTube in the last 3 years I could go on and on and on but it is not until you are here on the

ground that you viscerally understand that and what I mean by that is the vibrancy around um the creator economy and it's like kind of and you sort of alluded to this earlier. It's like it's

two things. Yes, you have to be a

two things. Yes, you have to be a creative person, an authentic thought.

You have to share it with yourself, but you also have to be an entrepreneur. You

have to be someone who's really and what I mean by that is like truly entrepreneurial in the best sense like someone who's willing to work hard and really give into their passion kind of a

thing. And I see that every time I'm

thing. And I see that every time I'm here in India and um I really think that that's where all of this success has come from. Um and it's not just like

come from. Um and it's not just like their success of these creators in India. Something like the on the order

India. Something like the on the order of 15% or uh like uh which translates to about 45 billion hours of watch time of content created by Indian creators is

actually consumed outside of India. So,

it's an exporter of ideas and culture.

And so, but you viscerally see that when it's happening here, when you see that just walking the streets in terms of how people what they're watching on their phones, uh, you see that in the conversations I have with creators. And

so, that's really what I would reiterate every time I'm here. Whether you call that a mask or not, that's that's the reality from my standpoint.

I'm an investor first and foremost. Mhm.

If I had $100 to invest and I could buy Spotify, YouTube, a movie theater business, a

Hollywood studio, a news broadcasting company, where would I put my money? If

I could only put it in one place for the next decade. I mean, I can't I'm not

next decade. I mean, I can't I'm not going to give you investment advice.

You're a much savvier investor than I am. I can't give you any advice. Um, I

am. I can't give you any advice. Um, I

would again just just uh maybe broaden it. I would just say I think that really

it. I would just say I think that really YouTube is different than all of those pieces that you touched on. I mean, we interact with, we probably compete with

some of those players that you mentioned, but um, you know, our lane is different. It really is

different. It really is about watching, sharing, and creating video. Full stop. That's what we uh want

video. Full stop. That's what we uh want to do. We want to make sure that we

to do. We want to make sure that we continue to do it. We are the world's oldest and largest creator economy and uh you know it's my ambition as CEO to

make sure that continues to be the case.

And if I were to go back to the fact that I'm speaking to entrepreneurs who want to use this platform to grow a business, can you give me five non-obvious insights about the world of

content that I might not be able to find online?

Yeah. Uh let me say a few things. First

is um and I don't know if this is obvious or not but I'll just I'll say sort of the things that I I I I think an upand cominging entrepreneur would would want to think about. One is you know

places like YouTube but other platforms also um have really eliminated the need or the like the fact

of a barrier between you and your audience or your customer or however you think about it. Like you are in the driver's seat. you get to control what

driver's seat. you get to control what that conversation looks like and you get the feedback immediately. That's the

second thing. It's like as opposed to feedback that would happen in the traditional way whether you were an entrepreneur and getting the feedback from the market 6 months down the road or from your investors a year down the

road. Feedback on a place like YouTube

road. Feedback on a place like YouTube is instantaneously. You see, you

is instantaneously. You see, you literally see it in the comments within minutes of you, seconds, minutes within you posting the video. So that's a world uh that you really really have to be

ready for. The third we talked about um

ready for. The third we talked about um which is true uh truly global right like so um you can have local regional

national sort of ambitions but you know content tends to be global storylines do translate. They are specifics obviously

translate. They are specifics obviously and obviously culture matters a lot. Um,

but that's that's kind of the the the the third thing that I would say. One

thing that I think is was not obvious for a while is now starting to be more obvious around content is um it truly is multi-creen, right? Like you know like

multi-creen, right? Like you know like the mental model when you say the word YouTube, what pops into your head? You

might be a mobile phone. Well um in the US the majority of content is actually consumed on television screens and you know that could happen in the rest of the world. It's our fastest growing

the world. It's our fastest growing screen. So just you know kind of this

screen. So just you know kind of this multimodality multi-urface is is is super super important. And then I think the very last thing I'll say again from an entrepreneur standpoint is um our

fundamental business model is an advertising model and that's because we're large scale right like it is a way to reach a very large pool of people

with your content if it's ad supported.

But I also think that uh entrepreneurs should think about other types of monetization models like ESVOD. We have

a subscription business right with YouTube premium. Um direct fanf funding

YouTube premium. Um direct fanf funding models right especially if you have niche content. If you are you know

niche content. If you are you know creating content in a particular education vertical that is super super valuable um but probably doesn't have broad reach then a direct consumer fanf

funding type model might make sense. We

talked about shopping and and merch and those types of use cases. So be um creative and flexible about the monetization models. Uh but be very rock

monetization models. Uh but be very rock solid in terms of the content that you're that's true to you. If all of all

the world is stories and stage a stage uh if Neil had to quit YouTube tomorrow and build YouTube's

competition because the world should not just have one, two, or three stages but many stages. What would you build that

many stages. What would you build that can compete with YouTube as a better place to tell stories?

Uh well hopefully if that's going to be the case, we're doing it within YouTube.

Um, I always say to our teams that we really do have to continue to disrupt ourselves. That's what our creators and

ourselves. That's what our creators and our viewers expect whether they say it or not. They they do expect that. Um,

or not. They they do expect that. Um,

you know, one area that we haven't talked a lot about, but I am very excited by and I I do think it will be disruptive not just to YouTube, but to the creative industries in general is is

AI and everything that's happening with AI. And

AI. And um I think it can be disruptive up and down the stack. What we're doing, and you know, I'm sure lots of competition is doing, but what we're doing at

YouTube is how do we turn it into tools that allow for that disruption to occur because you can't bury that technological disruption, but um allow

for it to feel like it is in the hands of the creative people. And uh so I'll just give you a couple of examples.

Um, the technology exists today when you hit that plus but plus camera on YouTube to now within a few seconds give it a text prompt of, you know, let's change

this set to one where we're sitting in a spring meadow and there's birds and flowers outside. And that's probably something

outside. And that's probably something uh that would have taken us days or weeks to put together if that's what we wanted our set to be. AI allows you to

do that. now in seconds. And that's a

do that. now in seconds. And that's a collaboration between YouTube and Google DeepMind. So that's pretty profound from

DeepMind. So that's pretty profound from a user standpoint. As fans, we're like, "Wow, we get get the benefit of this."

Um, really, really quickly. I also think it is a tool in the hands of the creator. Like it was your decision or my

creator. Like it was your decision or my decision to come up with that creative idea and now it's there. And so that's really cool because now this technology is in the hands of a lot more creators.

But it is disruptive because it did disrupt a lot of things that needed to happen in the preAI scenario, right?

Like that that days or weeks that would have taken. So I don't want to be naive

have taken. So I don't want to be naive to that. And so I just

to that. And so I just um I think that's where you're going to see lots of really interesting disruption in a way that creates new opportunities because

now 10,000 more people could produce that content than otherwise could have.

But I do recognize that it's actually also going to disrupt certain parts of that sort of value chain or stack or whatever you want to call it um through the process. And I could give you many

the process. And I could give you many examples of that in the creative industry. If I were to put back the

industry. If I were to put back the investor hat for a second, let's assume OpenAI used YouTube data for

Sora. And again, if you had $100 that

Sora. And again, if you had $100 that you could bet behind one large AI company, which company has the most data? Is it Google? Is it Microsoft? Is

data? Is it Google? Is it Microsoft? Is

it as an outsider trying to take a bet on the world of AI broadly? Where do you think that money should go? Remove the

remove like your own company from the pitch.

Um, you know, is it I think it's hard to answer who has the most data or what have you. I think that um data is sort

have you. I think that um data is sort of one part of of the equation. I do

think that um technological breakthroughs and investment in innovation is another big part of it. I

I get to uh work very closely with Google deep mind every day particularly in areas of you know audio and video right with the VO models etc. So I see

how powerful that innovation can be. And

then there's a third piece which doesn't actually get talked about that much but I think is also very important which is the applications of these models. How do

they actually show up? How do they show up in a way where they're useful and they capture the imagination but not just capture the imagination once and then they're forgotten about but then

really become something mainstream. And

so I think all three of those pieces are important. At YouTube, our focus is

important. At YouTube, our focus is really obviously working on the deep sort of technology and collaboration with Deep Mind, but also just as much turning it into tools and features. So,

I described this product to you called Dreamcreen, which is like, you know, kind of this super interesting product.

Wow. Oh my god, you can you can create that amazing video out of thin air from just this quick text prompt. Of course,

it's amazing. It's mindblowing.

Um, but when we talk to our creators, when I talk to creators, they they love that feature. They think it's powerful.

that feature. They think it's powerful.

It democratizes creation. All all great great stuff. Uh, but they also talk to

great stuff. Uh, but they also talk to me things about like, you know, why don't you do something even more kind of basic basic and mundane, which is

like, why not just give me a translation of my video in 10 big languages? Why not

give it to me in a thousand different languages? And why not do it in a way

languages? And why not do it in a way where it captures um my tone my inflection and AI will be able to do that and that will be magical

too and that will have a profound impact on like you know some some kid um you know trying to learn algebra in a small Indian village uh and that's like a

profound impact on humanity but it's not as interesting at least it's not kind of like like as glitzy of a use case.

Another one that comes to mind that creators always talk to me about is, you know, one of their biggest challenges is sort of the blank blank um uh screen problem. Like, I have a video, I have no

problem. Like, I have a video, I have no idea what to do next, and I'm a travel vlogger. Um well, could I iterate with

vlogger. Um well, could I iterate with an AI to actually help me come up with ideas on, you know, the next where should I take my next trip and what sort

of video should I produce around it? Uh

so those are these are the types of things where a lot of AI innovation is happening because that's what makes it actually practical for for real users.

Are attention spans falling or growing?

I can watch a Netflix or a YouTube show for 10 hours and binge it and yet I hear people's attention spans have come down to 10 seconds or 20 seconds. What do you

think? Uh I don't see it one way or the

think? Uh I don't see it one way or the other. I mean our our we see all all

other. I mean our our we see all all nature of consumption patterns on YouTube. Um what are you betting more

YouTube. Um what are you betting more on? Long form or shorts?

on? Long form or shorts?

I mean I think I really view them as kind of a I I don't view them as two separate things I guess is what I would say. I I think short sort of stands on

say. I I think short sort of stands on its own in the sense in that it's like it's vertical. It's shot on a mobile

it's vertical. It's shot on a mobile phone. Maybe it gets consumed more in a

phone. Maybe it gets consumed more in a feed, but all it is is just like it's shorter video. It's like if you take uh

shorter video. It's like if you take uh put your head back to where YouTube wasif we were just celebrating our 20th birthday, right? So go back to the very

birthday, right? So go back to the very early days of YouTube that people call that shorts. That was shorts back then.

that shorts. That was shorts back then.

And so it's just like I think it's like a frame of reference thing. Um and in our corpus we see our long form content in many cases growing even longer um getting more

episodic in nature as you're describing.

uh and we have, you know, short form content that's 15 seconds, but we get we get uh lots of asks for that short for short form content to be over 3 minutes

long. So, like it's just like a a a

long. So, like it's just like a a a continuum. And I think in terms of

continuum. And I think in terms of attention span, you know, I you know, you can have a long session just consuming quote

unquote short content and vice versa. So

I I see it really um I kind of see it in in we see it in all all different directions. I don't think there's a one

directions. I don't think there's a one one or the other. I use YouTube a lot as a second screen while I'm at work. So if

I use it for I'm watching like podcasts and I don't know random like studies and stuff like that. I actually find

that this is me being really honest.

When I turn on a screen, my TV, and I watch Netflix, Mhm. I feel like I'm doing something wrong. But when I turn on my TV and I watch YouTube, very

subconsciously, I feel like I'm doing something right. I don't know how to

something right. I don't know how to describe this. Yeah. Because somewhere

describe this. Yeah. Because somewhere

in my subconscious, the latter makes me think I'm learning. And when I'm learning, some anxiety in me is alleviated. I don't know if that's by

alleviated. I don't know if that's by design or not. Uh I'm not sure if I it's not by design in the sense of

anything that we have done to either communicate that or pick the content. So

I feel like the credit really goes again to our amazing creators, you know, the 100 million creators that upload in India or wherever. I will say um learning is a really big use case on

YouTube. And when I say learning, I mean

YouTube. And when I say learning, I mean the broad definition of the term learning. Um, you know, frankly, in my

learning. Um, you know, frankly, in my own experience, I used YouTube a lot for that. Like, and all kinds of niches of

that. Like, and all kinds of niches of learning are really really popular.

Obviously, there's the obvious learning like, you know, high school kid in the classroom kind of learning. And then

there's the other sort of very obvious thing, which is like, well, how do I fix my bike or how did I how do I fix my garage door? But like the really deep

garage door? But like the really deep learning use cases are pretty esoteric and can and and have lots and lots of content in very particular places. A

colleague of mine always talks about his love of, you know, um, woodworking, right, and carving. And you can go really deep on that on YouTube. I love

like, it's kind of random, but I love like logistics and logistics patterns and how things happen sort of in infrastructure. You can go really deep

infrastructure. You can go really deep on that on YouTube. So that is not something that we sort of pick those content verticals on purpose. But just

like every niche sort of exists on YouTube, there's 20 billion videos that have been uh uploaded to YouTube. That

that's that's every that's where the experience comes from. So 5 years ago when I turned on YouTube, it was to play songs. Mhm. That position in my mind

songs. Mhm. That position in my mind somehow is lost has been lost to Spotify. Mhm. Now when I think of a

Spotify. Mhm. Now when I think of a song, I go to Spotify. When I think of a podcast or something around learning, I go to YouTube. When I think of

entertainment, entertainment, I go to Netflix. Do you think the music

Netflix. Do you think the music battle Spotify has gained a lot of traction in over the last few years? Why

do you feel that way about music? I

don't know. It's just how I use it. Mhm.

I didn't have Spotify six, seven years ago. And also, I'm not the generic

ago. And also, I'm not the generic Indian user. Mhm.

Indian user. Mhm.

But somehow my music needs today are not met by YouTube. But more needs of mine

by YouTube. But more needs of mine around learning are met by YouTube.

Yeah, it's interesting. I mean, like I said, I mean, learning is a very large use case on YouTube across every demographic, every part of the world.

It's one that I'm very proud of. You

know, I saw a stat 90% plus of classroom teachers use YouTube in the classroom in some particular way. So that is core to what we do. But music is our I'd say

almost oldest and one of our most important verticals by far. It's really

core to the YouTube uh heritage starting from you know the early days of YouTube and T-Series and T-Series is still one of our most important most strategic largest partners. There's a few things

largest partners. There's a few things that I would say that's happened I think to music in in India in general regardless of you know YouTube or

Spotify which is you know the growth of um you know Indian origin music pop music um in that sort of not classic Bollywood right like you know we have

amazing YouTubers like King who grew up on our platform uh who are superstars in of their own right but sort of charted their own path and we you know he's he's obviously kind of a mega star but there's lots lots and lots of examples

like that. And um I would say that

like that. And um I would say that that's a really big phenomenon on YouTube just like it is on other platforms. One of the things that um I

want to continue to do is um uh invest more in terms of actually showcasing that on YouTube. So again, not about the algorithm or what have you, but having

charts for example, popular charts in not just in sort of classic Bollywood Hindi, but in all of these different languages to recognize those artists. So

we're doing more and more work like that getting more precise about uh algorithmic recommendations around spec because the Indian music landscape is so diverse in terms of language and style

that um it sort of in that sense presents like a unique challenge and opportunity to how sophisticated the algorithm needs to be to be able to make good recommendations in that context.

And so those are areas that we're um investing in. We're actually going to

investing in. We're actually going to talk more about some of that at Waves too. like the first night of waves is

too. like the first night of waves is the the the YouTube cultural night which is you know our our chance to put our best foot forward of all of our YouTubers. So yeah, music is is very

YouTubers. So yeah, music is is very important. I'm not sure why you feel

important. I'm not sure why you feel that way but Indian music is like a core part of our our our investment. Any

fleeting thoughts? Neil, you want to tell us something?

Anything that you'd like to tell us? Um

no I think what I would say first of all thank you so much for making the time for doing this. It's really a privilege uh to have the conversation. Um I would just say that um every time I come back

to India, I'm I'm amazed at sort of how much the Indian creative economy and creative industry continues to grow. We

at YouTube are privileged to play our role in that. And as I said earlier in the conversation, I think we're just getting started. It's still the early

getting started. It's still the early innings, right? Thank you so much for

innings, right? Thank you so much for doing this, Neil. You make India proud and hope to see you again soon. Thank

you very much. Thanks for having me.

Okay. All right. How was it? It was

good. You're You're a pro. You're very

very well prepared.

You guys have a studio there, too. Or uh

Awesome. Very cool. All right, Nico.

Take care. Thank you, everybody.

Will you be are you speaking there or are you No, I'm participating in some round table with the PM. Oh, nice. Yeah.

Okay. I think I I'll probably see you there. You'll probably be on it.

there. You'll probably be on it.

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