Number 1 Communication Expert: Stop Doing This… People Will Like You More | Jefferson Fisher

There are people that you may not call a bully, but they'll certainly boss you around. They might not steal your lunch

around. They might not steal your lunch money, but they will steal your self-esteem if they can. You're going to love hearing from Jefferson Fischer. He

just had a New York Times best-selling book come out. This is one of those episodes that I think every human needs to listen to. The compliment sandwich is a little hard to chew and almost

impossible to swallow. How do you handle a toxic person? If you're going to say something ugly to me and then I just let it hang, it is one of the most powerful moves you can make. Can you tell if

somebody is a high performer based on the way they communicate? A thousand%.

If you always get out of your chair to stand your ground on every little issue, your legs are going to get tired. Some

people are worth getting out of your chair for and some people aren't.

[Music] Hello and welcome back to the Big Deal Podcast. I'm Cody Sanchez and this

Podcast. I'm Cody Sanchez and this week's guest is amazing. You're going to love hearing from Jefferson Fischer.

Especially if you don't know what to do when you get insulted or bullied or have somebody say something to you that you think is disrespectful. You're going to love this conversation if you don't

really know how to have difficult conversations. He just had a New York

conversations. He just had a New York Times best-selling book come out. It's

called The Next Conversation. The book

is brilliant. And so I think you will get as much from this episode as I did.

This is one of those episodes that I think every human needs to listen to.

And the other thing I want to leave you guys with today is that if somebody has sent you this podcast, I think that's really special because it means they care about you, they want to communicate with you, if there is somebody that you

want to communicate better with, that you care deeply for, I think this is a great podcast to share with just about anybody. What we've realized from

anybody. What we've realized from watching the numbers is a lot of you all are also not subscribed. I know you're here listening to this podcast because you want to be better. People who want

to be better come here. People who don't are not part of our tribe. And so if you're not already subscribed, hit the button. That allows us to continue

button. That allows us to continue bringing you the best guests in the world to ask the questions that you care about and to have you be able to have content you can share with the people that you love, too. Without further ado,

Jefferson Fischer. You seem really nice

Jefferson Fischer. You seem really nice for I met a lot of trial attorneys back in the day. I used to work in the mental health and rule 11 competency court. Oh,

okay. It was brutal. Not that nice of people all the time. You seem very happy and nice and well adjusted. Well, thank

you. You can blame that on my parents.

Yeah. I find that a lot of attorneys are nice. Yeah. They just think that that's

nice. Yeah. They just think that that's what attorneys are supposed to be like.

Yeah. Or do or be. So to me that's, you know, like uh you put on a suit and tie.

Mhm. That doesn't change who they are.

Yeah. It's also it's their costume. It's

their their suit and tie. They feel like that's who they have to become. And so a lot of them I am personal friends with and they are great. I mean you see they're married. Somebody like them.

they're married. Somebody like them.

They have, you know, somebody liked them enough for a little bit to have kids.

Uh-huh. And then when you get in trial with them, they turn into different animals. Interesting. Yeah. But are you

animals. Interesting. Yeah. But are you a different animal when you do trial?

No. No. You're the same. Same. So what?

And I find it to be a very a great leverage point because people feel like I don't I had this one time. I had it was a good friend. We were in trial and this was halfway through and he goes,

"Man, I hate trying cases with you." I

said, "What's going on?" He said, "I can't get mad.

I can't get mad. I was like, "Oh, is that right?" He goes, "Yeah, I typically

that right?" He goes, "Yeah, I typically have a another attorney who messed up or I can start blaming them and then they don't and just say they don't care about my client. They don't care about people

my client. They don't care about people and start making them." He's like, "I can't make a villain out of you. I can't

make an enemy." And so that just happens to be something that everybody's looking for. We find we do something and then

for. We find we do something and then we're trying to slowly find people that we can just blame it on. Yeah, I liked that line you had actually which was was basically essentially that that some people need a villain to validate their

behavior. Using kindness prevents you

behavior. Using kindness prevents you from giving them an enemy. Yeah. How how

do you kill someone with kindness?

There's a theory that I like to put and it's just being in the pocket. Like if

you with music you have people that are rushing the tempo and people that are dragging. But when everybody's in

dragging. But when everybody's in rhythm, everybody's the drummer's on the beat, everybody's in line, piano's good, everybody's bass, everybody starts to nod their head like, I got this. I feel

good. Not rushing. Same thing with your personality. If you're if you're

personality. If you're if you're somebody that, let's say, I sit down and I'm really really anxious and like I just love things. I love talking so much and you're going really fast. It's easy

to feel that rise up. But when you're somebody who slows down, it's like easier to calm down. You just kind of kill them with kindness. Interesting. To

where if whatever they say, okay, it's not like I have to be direct with you, I have to battle you. It's this um kind of weird martial arts just be like water

kind of thing. Well, you kind of did it right there. You know, when he says

right there. You know, when he says something that could be kind of incendiary and you could have defended against, which is I can't get mad at you. Like I hate triing you, right? And

you. Like I hate triing you, right? And

your response was fascinating. You just

said, "Oh, is that right?" Yeah. Is that

right? Is that what you do to deflect sort of villain-like behavior? You just

get curious and ask questions. Yeah.

People would say, you hear a lot in communication advice, you got to get curious. And I find that word to be kind

curious. And I find that word to be kind of overused. I think it's right. It's

of overused. I think it's right. It's

spot on. But curious is often something that suggests that you have to really be interested and sometimes just not the case. I don't have to be interested in

case. I don't have to be interested in their bad behavior. It's more of this mindset that you go into of water off a duck's back where you can say whatever

you choose to say. I can choose what I want to say. And a lot of it people have a lot of opinions.

You can keep it all inside your head without sharing any of it. So a lot of people were just these all we do is create opinions and opinions and opinions. We want people to go with us.

opinions. We want people to go with us.

But I think the real power is just understanding you need to have fewer opinions and even fewer that you share.

I feel like all on social media that's all we we tend to do. But yeah, making making yourself a easy target, also making yourself a villain for somebody's behavior. They want to blame it on you

behavior. They want to blame it on you for making them behave a certain way or something like that. So, it's it's really being able to not mind because people feel like just because you said something, I have to have an opinion on

it or just because you said something, I have to throw it right back. And it's

it's not baseball, it's not tennis, it's not volleyball. I don't I can just if

not volleyball. I don't I can just if you say something ugly to me, Cody, and I could just let it fall as if I look at it and go, "Is that is that really what

you want to say?" You go, "Do you say the same thing I think you said?" versus

me catching it, taking it personal. How

dare you? That's that's when you get into the That's when you lose track of who you are. You You've like kind of accepted their frame then. Basically,

it's like now you're defending against a frame which allows you to sort of step into their world as opposed to if you just question it back. Yeah. Then you

you call it like um you switch the power tables or you switch the power law.

Yeah. Yeah. They they like the people say you flip the script or you flip the tables. For me, when somebody's acting

tables. For me, when somebody's acting poorly, you're kind of digging a hole.

And when they're acting really ugly towards you, you have the choice. Do you

want to jump in the hole with him and start saying all the ugly things or do you just want to say how's it going down there? You know, it's it's it's okay.

there? You know, it's it's it's okay.

I'm up here anytime you want to come up, but you you you enjoy that down there.

But you can tell, I mean, even how you and I are talking, we naturally because I've been going a little bit slower, you go slower and it happens in everyday conversation with all of it. I

watch your uh the videos. I love the videos that you have of you in the car of like content on the go, which I think is so cool. You do this. You're the

famous content in Yeah, but different.

Somebody's filming you. Like mine's like I'm looking like I'm FaceTiming my grandma, you know, like something like that. Very endearing, though. Well,

that. Very endearing, though. Well,

thank you. Yeah. But that that's that's uh that's what you want. You want people to feel the the authenticity and the communication. Yeah. And this you do the

communication. Yeah. And this you do the same thing. like you the content you put

same thing. like you the content you put out is 100% you and people know the difference. Yeah, I'm always yelling at

difference. Yeah, I'm always yelling at people though. You're very good at not

people though. You're very good at not You're not so much of a yeller, huh? No,

my I wasn't raised to be a yeller. But

also, I was also raised that if you really want to feel you really want to make somebody feel bad, don't yell.

There are people that wish you've been in those situations where people wish you would yell. like they feel like they're in the doghouse so bad that they just wish that you showed you yelled at them, they they need that because

they'll they'll do it to themselves. But

also, if you're a yeller, if all you do is stay like a level eight or nine all the time and you're always angry, people don't know the difference between what's a level 10 threat and what's still just

your norm threat. So, what's what really is the difference? Now, if I'm always at a three and then I need to raise to a eight, you can better believe they're going to listen because they go, "Whoa,

this is out of the blue. This isn't his normal. This is different." If you're

normal. This is different." If you're always up there at the top, nobody's going to know the difference, and they really won't listen to it. It's the same thing with just who people who say less.

You know, when people are in the the habit of saying less and choosing their words, more people actually listen. It's

um it's like the economy of of words.

The less you give, the more they will listen. The more you say, the less they

listen. The more you say, the less they will. Yeah, it's true. I was just

will. Yeah, it's true. I was just interviewing Robert Green the other day.

Yeah. How was that? Amazing. I mean, I was very nervous for that one because he I love the book. I love the book 48 Laws of He's cool. He's very I mean, he's in

his 80s and he had a stroke and he moves real slow, but he has this huge brain.

Um, and he's very thoughtful on each word. Um, and he's not playing any

word. Um, and he's not playing any games. He's not really trying to make

games. He's not really trying to make you like him. He's not Well, he's 80, right? I wouldn't either at that age. We

right? I wouldn't either at that age. We

hope not. You know, I hope by then I kind of don't care. Yeah. But he has um what I like about him, but you do a lot of it in just your own style, is he says sort of the quiet part out loud and um

he's honest about human nature. Yeah.

And um and then he uses all of these examples through history in order to overlay it. I don't know. Have you ever

overlay it. I don't know. Have you ever read his book um the hard copy of the 48 laws of power? So I have it and I know enough of it, but I haven't like studied. If you open it, I wish I had he

studied. If you open it, I wish I had he gave me his like example of it, but in all the margins are sort of like these notes that he writes. It's it's cool in the book. It's almost like if you had

the book. It's almost like if you had taken your book and then everything that was in your book, you had put your thoughts about your writings in the book. Yeah. And like actually written it

book. Yeah. And like actually written it in there. And it's all in red and it's

in there. And it's all in red and it's these quotes like there'll be a little Mchavelian story, there'll be a little story of Church Hill. Is that the one where like the the binding of it has like one side of his face, the other is

Makaveli? Like that. Okay. Very It's

Makaveli? Like that. Okay. Very It's

very thoughtful. I just left um I just got a gift from Bastrop from uh Ryan.

Ryan. Yeah. and he showed me that book in his library. Oh, that's wild. It's

one of my favorites. How small. The

world's weird. Um, one thing I want to go back to, I was combing through a bunch of your socials and I did love this line which we've circled around which is not everything requires a response from

you. Just because they spew out trash

you. Just because they spew out trash doesn't mean you're in the business of digging through garbage. Yeah. And that

kind of gets back to your point maybe on digging a hole and how you feeling down there. But but also how if that is true,

there. But but also how if that is true, how do you stand up for yourself in the times where you know you should? The

biggest thing to know about standing up for yourself is knowing when to do it.

There's a lot of people that you if you always get out of your chair to stand your ground on every little issue, your legs are going to get tired.

Like you just some people are worth getting out of your chair for and some people aren't. There are some people

people aren't. There are some people that if you really feel like an injustice like for me a driving principle is justice. If I feel like

something is injust, I'm much more um I guess it's unjust, then I'm much more prone to get out of my seat and say, "No, no, this is not this isn't cool.

That's not fair. This isn't equal. You

don't talk you don't treat people that way." But if you if you're the the yippy

way." But if you if you're the the yippy dog that always barks at every car that goes by, it's that same principle of really nobody's going to nobody's going

to listen nearly as much. It's it's the walk quietly with a a big stick kind of mentality. When when you want to stand

mentality. When when you want to stand up for yourself, it is this truth of knowing that I I can I can choose to say nothing. And

a lot of times that is far more powerful than anything I could say. if you're

going to say something ugly to me and then I just let it hang. Oh, it's one of the most powerful

hang. Oh, it's one of the most powerful things you can do is to look at them as if there's nothing that you said that could ever harm me and then they just

don't do it as much. You're show you're telling them it's not going to be fun for you if you go down this road with me. Interesting. Where did you learn

me. Interesting. Where did you learn that? A lot of it is my upbringing. So I

that? A lot of it is my upbringing. So I

in the book I talk about my I'm the oldest of four. I'm a fifth generation trial attorney. So I've seen a lot of

trial attorney. So I've seen a lot of trials, heard a lot of trials and I just had a weird childhood where a good a wonderful childhood where I get picked up from school like get put in the

corner of my dad's deposition while he finishes or to watch the end of a closing argument. Then as the oldest of

closing argument. Then as the oldest of four had a lot of experience just resolving conflict uh plenty of conflict between brothers and sisters and the oldest have my sister and then my two

younger brothers and then a lot of it is um you'd think it was law school but it's not. You have trials, but it's

it's not. You have trials, but it's trial is probably one of the most important ones because it's let's say you're my witness and let's say you're

opposing, you're against me, you're adverse and I have to cross-examine you, meaning I have to prove that you're wrong on something. Now, as you already know, there's another attorney who's

going to be ready to jump in and object to every question I have. You have a judge that's going to roll in the evidence of if my question passes. you

have a baiff court reporter and then there's probably 12 people if we're in district court in the state of Texas that are going to all be listening to everything that I do. And it's not so

much the question I'm asking, it's how I'm asking it. So, I could be saying something and let's say the other person objects, judge rules against me. If I

act like I'm really upset about it, they're going to think, "Oh, that's bad for his case." If I if you say something and I act like it really hurts me and I get mad like, "Oh, that's not true,"

they're going to know, "Oh, this is actually bad for his case." It's this way of processing information with the understanding that there are other people in the room. Even if you don't know it, even if you're not seeing it,

there are other people that are always paying attention to what you're doing.

Wow. So, it's trial almost sounds like it's like communication poker. Oh,

that's a good way of putting it. Yeah.

Yeah. Yeah. You have to play the hands at your deal. So, let's put it at that.

Um, you know, I can't I can't choose better facts. I can't choose the law

better facts. I can't choose the law that I'm wanting to use. And at the same way, it's not really winning. Mhm. I

mean, you might have a better hand than me. But it's just how I play it. Yeah.

me. But it's just how I play it. Yeah.

And can I give it away or not? Yeah.

Fascinating. Well, and the thing is people think that trial is this whole a gotcha game. It's not. Everybody knows

gotcha game. It's not. Everybody knows

everybody's facts before you go in. None

of it's a surprise. None of it. Uh,

every you I know all your bad facts. You

know all of my bad facts. We all all know each other's bruises as just who can who can play the fiddle better. And

uh it's it's a weird situation in which when I ask you a question, I'm also wanting the jury to hear what you say and how that compares with the facts that I have. So, a lot of the tools that

I teach about framing conversations, it's the same way of how I would frame a question or how I give a big road map or how I would kind of make you say what I want you to say or how I have an open or

closed ended question. It's all kind of the same principles. Interesting. Do you

use the principles with your wife, too?

No. Does she call you? Does she call you out? She's also an attorney. Oh, yeah.

out? She's also an attorney. Oh, yeah.

We went to law school together. Oh. Oh

my goodness. Yeah. And she knows immediately if I'm trying, she'd say, "Don't cross-examine me." like it's like it's very very quick. She's very quick to say that. And so, um, it's there's a

certain style of cross-examination where if you start to just steam them out, it's like, "Nope, you can't." What would that sound like? You use short little

statements. So, typically in TV, you see

statements. So, typically in TV, you see the wrong stuff. TV is all so fake when it comes to questions. Isn't it true whether or you know, isn't it true on or

about December 21st, 2024, you were at the BIES in Bastrip, Texas? yes or no that you're never going to get that that kind of answer from somebody and you've

seen it like at the Johnny Depp trial.

People ask really bad questions really. Um the best

questions really. Um the best cross-examination aren't questions, they're very short statements. And so

maybe I'm wanting to draw out that the car that you saw that weekend was red. And so I' I'd say something like

red. And so I' I'd say something like you were out that weekend. He had to say, "Yeah, you see I

weekend. He had to say, "Yeah, you see I haven't I didn't say yes or no." I say, "You were out that weekend?" "Yeah, saw a car." Yeah. Car car was red. And then

a car." Yeah. Car car was red. And then

sometimes they go, "Well, you know, I don't know. I really don't." And they

don't know. I really don't." And they start going on and on and on. So the

witness is trying to run on you. They're

trying to make you look bad. And all you do is just come back red. The car was red. Yeah. So it's really easy to do

red. Yeah. So it's really easy to do that in, let's say, at the kitchen table if you're like wanting to make a a point, but that'll get you in trouble.

Yeah. If your wife's an attorney. Mhm.

Yeah. Yeah. She doesn't she doesn't know any of that. She c she catches that real quick. Yeah. My husband does the

quick. Yeah. My husband does the opposite. He does the CIA method which

opposite. He does the CIA method which is often saying things like um oh um like I'll be like hey you know did you do X Y and Z and he'll be like X Y and

Z. And then I'll be like yeah you know

Z. And then I'll be like yeah you know when I said that we were going to do this and eventually he'll just keep asking the question back like oh did I do that? And finally I'll I'll either

do that? And finally I'll I'll either just get annoyed and walk away because I don't think he's understanding me. And

it works beautifully like the mirroring.

Yeah. Exactly. And except now that I'm on to it, he got me for years with that.

Years. Yeah. I think I was a slow on the uptick. I was like, never mind. That's

uptick. I was like, never mind. That's

funny. I just I'm just not going to get engaged. Um, one of the things that I

engaged. Um, one of the things that I liked about what you talked about, uh, is it's on my 2025 list, and I think it is for a lot of people, to do less

complaining, to have less negativity in their lives, you know, and, uh, I've heard you talk before about what to do when somebody is complaining, and it was totally counter to everything that I've

thought to do when people are complaining. Can you tell me what do you

complaining. Can you tell me what do you what do you do when somebody's complaining and you don't want them to keep going? When somebody is

keep going? When somebody is complaining, you want them to stop. The

trick is to make them keep going.

Because if you haven't heard the end of it, you haven't heard all of it. Meaning

that there's a source of it that they haven't told you. You're only hearing the symptoms of it. Think of a So, I have a seven-year-old and a 5-year-old.

Mhm. My daughter can complain about the food, about what she's wearing. She's

she doesn't want to do this, she doesn't want to do that, and she starts to whine. It's not about the food. It's not

whine. It's not about the food. It's not

about what's going on. It's that she's tired, right? It's just like at your

tired, right? It's just like at your base need. Some people, we know

base need. Some people, we know this, me included, everybody. All of a sudden, you feel grumpy, you feel irritable, you're just hungry. So,

there's always like this spot that the issue that you're voicing is rarely the issue. So when somebody is complaining

issue. So when somebody is complaining to you, it's what I like to say is what else. There's one phrase that I like to

else. There's one phrase that I like to use is what else? Because they will find something else, but then they kind of run out of steam and then you transfer once you feel like they're out of steam because that's the you got to you got to

let them out. You have to let them get it all out or they're not going to listen to you. Period. And so as soon as they get it all out, it's this idea of um what do you think we should do? as

soon as you try to like start getting them to think of solutions, but make it to where they're the ones that are proposing the solutions. If you were to ask, well, what do you think the next

step is? Or my favorite is, well, what's

step is? Or my favorite is, well, what's the other part of you say? What's the

other part of you say? Because we all have two different parts. There's a part who believes in it and the part who wants to complain. The part who wants to be positive and the part that wants to be negative. And so, what you're just

be negative. And so, what you're just hearing is the negative part. And when

they kind of get it all out and then once you feel like they're at a good pausing position, you say, "What's the other part of you say?" And they'll go, "Well, I mean, you know, he probably didn't do that on purpose." I mean, and

if I were him, and then all of a sudden the dynamic changes because you heard the negative. The positive is still

the negative. The positive is still there. There's all always is. You just

there. There's all always is. You just

have to ask, "What's the other part of you say?" Interesting. What about does

you say?" Interesting. What about does that work always? Like you know how do you ever get in a complaining loop yourself where you find yourself kind of repeating about the same thing that's

happening in the world? I think we all know somebody who does that. Yeah. And

at some point I'm not so sure that it's not that we don't know the issue. It's

just that we get habitually complaining.

Mhm. So is that just me being impatient?

Are we just being impatient that we're not asking what else? What else? What

else? And if we kept asking, then you might actually be able to break the habit loop. Or is there a habitual thing

habit loop. Or is there a habitual thing that just sometimes even if you get to the root, you can't solve it?

For me, yeah, I'm quick to acknowledge when I'm grumpy.

I'm quick to acknowledge when I'm tired.

Like the basic human emotions. Most of

the time when you're in that continuous complaining loop, there's a basic emotion, a primal feeling that you have

not acknowledged in that moment of I'm irritable. I'm grumpy. I don't like, you

irritable. I'm grumpy. I don't like, you know what, I didn't like how I looked in the mirror this morning. And so all of a sudden, I'm just going to that's going to color my day. My hair is not doing how I want it to go. I don't like And so

it's just you've already decided before that day started you don't really like that day. So I um I used to wear this I

that day. So I um I used to wear this I still have it Whoop is a band and so it have this green, red, yellow on it.

And I got to where if for some reason it was yellow, I was going to have a yellow day. And if it was red, my day was

day. And if it was red, my day was already terrible. Like and that was

already terrible. Like and that was first thing in the morning. I was like, "Oh, it's going to be a terrible day anyway. I'm red." Like I felt like I was

anyway. I'm red." Like I felt like I was back in grade school when you had to like pick your color, you know, from the the chart. And so if it wasn't going to

the chart. And so if it wasn't going to be a green day, well then was it going to be a good day? And that was me.

That's nothing on. Uh and so it was kind of that idea where okay, how do you get out of this continual complaining? It's

usually from an unrecognized basic need of hunger, attention, you're thirsty, something that's very very basic that you just haven't given attention to. Yeah, I like

that. Yeah, I felt the same thing. I

that. Yeah, I felt the same thing. I

have an aura ring. And at first I would feel the same way. But then uh my husband and I started acknowledging it and I would just we would make a joke.

We'd be like, "Well, I was at 50% last night sleep, so I'm broken. Barely going

to make it. Probably not I'm not going to last the rest of the day." And you kind of acknowledge that if instead you can acknowledge that part of you that's not happy about what's happening by

making a little joke. It helps me for some reason. Well, the reason why Yeah,

some reason. Well, the reason why Yeah, I think that's perfect is because that that means you have a lot of self-awareness, Cody, whenever you can use the phrase. Tell Chris that. Yeah,

we'll tell my wife. Uh is I use the phrase I can tell. So, before you begin your sentence, begin with I can tell.

Let's say you and I are together and we just get home and you want to tell something to me. I

just had a long day and the last thing I want to do after kids are in bed, dinner's done, is handle this problem that you've been

waiting on the whole day to tell me. And

because that happens, I'm sure with you and your husband, you wait till the it's you haven't seen him all day and then when he's dead tired or you're dead tired, he brings something up and this

is the worst time to do it. He's he's

waited until you have 10% left for 100% of a conversation. That's that's a bad recipe. When you can just say, "I can

recipe. When you can just say, "I can tell I'm not ready for this conversation." Like, that is immense

conversation." Like, that is immense self-awareness.

More powerful than you realize than if you go, "Okay, I guess we're doing this.

All right." And then you just get grumpy. Then the outcome is hardly ever

grumpy. Then the outcome is hardly ever productive. But when you're able to say,

productive. But when you're able to say, "I can I can tell that's making me defensive. I can tell I'm getting

defensive. I can tell I'm getting defensive. I can tell I'm getting upset.

defensive. I can tell I'm getting upset.

I can tell I'm getting annoyed. I can

tell I'm getting frustrated. I mean,

it's whatever emotion you're feeling. If

you can label it with the I can tell and you're getting it out, then you're not acting on it. There's a difference between you saying something and me acting defensive. That's not true. I

acting defensive. That's not true. I

didn't say that. What do you That's acting defensive. That's becoming the

acting defensive. That's becoming the feeling versus you saying it and me going, I can tell I'm getting defensive.

like that is far more powerful than actually working it out. And is that sort of how you is that how you manipulate emotional responsiveness so that you're not the one that's always

sort of being pingponged emotionally is awareness and then a statement about awareness. Yes. Interesting. Because as

awareness. Yes. Interesting. Because as

long as you are the first is to recognize that feeling. That sounds a little woo woo but it's it's more important. Yeah. Come on. Yeah. Then

important. Yeah. Come on. Yeah. Then

we're on theme. Um it's uh we call it granola. So is if you're feeling that in

granola. So is if you're feeling that in yourself mean you know when you're getting upset. I know when I can feel it

getting upset. I know when I can feel it in my in my neck and my ears that I'm getting tensed up. But if you can label it and put it out loud, it's it helps because then the other person isn't

guessing. So you're going to have a more

guessing. So you're going to have a more productive conversation when you're able to get that feeling out loud. It it's

labeling the emotion is not that difficult. The people that feel like

difficult. The people that feel like they don't have time for it are the people that also don't have time for productive conversation. That's a good

productive conversation. That's a good line and also hard. Yeah. We we had a therapist for a while that did that.

There was some fancy name that I can't remember, but um something along the lines. So, there was like this wheel.

lines. So, there was like this wheel.

Have you seen it with all the different emotions? There's a lot of wheels.

emotions? There's a lot of wheels.

This is why I'm in finance. I want a spreadsheet. Anyway, the the wheel it

spreadsheet. Anyway, the the wheel it was so like if you're struggling, you're starting to get activated. you know,

you're upset with your spouse, she would make us pause and then say, "What do you feel in your body right now?" And at first I was like, "Oh my god, like this does feel super this is so annoying."

And then she would have us name it. So

she'd be like, "My neck starts to get tightened." And I crack my neck when I'm

tightened." And I crack my neck when I'm doing this. I start to move my feet

doing this. I start to move my feet around. My I might crack my knuckles.

around. My I might crack my knuckles.

And that's my little sign of I'm starting to get You do that. Yeah. I

might do that. U My husband will clench his his jaw when he's starting to feel that way. Yeah. And uh and she's like,

that way. Yeah. And uh and she's like, "And that is your notice that you're starting to get in flight or fight." And

so because of that, then I can go, "Ha, sorry. I'm Can I I'm going to get up and

sorry. I'm Can I I'm going to get up and pace around for a second cuz for some reason I'm starting to get agitated." So

that's really interesting. But I've

never then said that word where I own it. Yeah. When you claim it, when you

it. Yeah. When you claim it, when you claim it, you control it as opposed to like you are making me internalizing it and saying you cause me. I mean it's

there's nothing the feeling the feeling is natural. Everybody just feels it. You

is natural. Everybody just feels it. You

can't I can't you could hit me and it hurts. I can't stop that. Um but if you

hurts. I can't stop that. Um but if you decide that you are that emotion, well then you act on that emotion. But if you get it out, in other words, I say it out

loud, it helps you. Now now you have that emotion that like we've put it on the table. Hey, that topic and see right

the table. Hey, that topic and see right there that makes me angry. And so and that's that's saying that this is making me angry. I'm not saying you are making

me angry. I'm not saying you are making me angry. I can say this topic, this

me angry. I can say this topic, this conversation, this issue, that statement, and I'm I'm detaching the personalization from it. Which means

I'm not trying to attack you and say you're not making me. So you can't make me feel anything. But if I can say it out loud when you claim it, you control

it. That's really good. What about you

it. That's really good. What about you talk a lot about how to respond to toxic people or bullies.

What is the way as an adult to deal with a toxic person or a bully? When you're dealing with bullies,

bully? When you're dealing with bullies, we all know from growing up, it's these people that have unmet needs from when they were growing up. Same thing in

everyday workplace. When you're dealing

everyday workplace. When you're dealing with somebody belittling you or being rude or condescending, when they do that, what I want you to do is to ask

them a question. And it's a question that they're not going to be used to.

And it is you're asking them to say it again. Whenever you ask them to repeat

again. Whenever you ask them to repeat it, it's something they were not number one, they weren't expecting it. Number

two, they're not going to want to do it because it the first effect is gone. You

you've already blown out the candle.

They don't want to have to relight it.

It's this idea of I already said the bad thing. Oh no, they didn't I didn't get

thing. Oh no, they didn't I didn't get the reaction what I wanted. I didn't get that hit of dopamine. I didn't get that that self gratification. Instead, if you were say something ugly as a bully or

somebody who's being ugly in the workplace and I say, I can you catch Can you say that again? I didn't catch all that. Can you can you repeat that for

that. Can you can you repeat that for me? It is not nearly as fun for them the

me? It is not nearly as fun for them the second go around. And whenever that happens, if they have the guts, which they probably won't, but if they have

the guts to repeat it, then you ask a question of intent like, "Did you did you say that to embarrass me? Did you

say that to offend me? Did you say that to make me upset? Did you want that to hurt me?" You can begin with did you or

hurt me?" You can begin with did you or how did you expect me to respond to that?

How did you feel when you when you said that to me? These are things that again just like we talked about, you're not catching it and throwing it back. It

hasn't even reached your doorstep yet because all you've done is just taking that spotlight that was on you and just go put it right back on them because it's a mirror. That's all that's all

you're doing. M whenever you do that

you're doing. M whenever you do that it's really good because I was looking up statistics prior to this and I knew that there was a lot of I love a statistic although these days who knows what's factor fiction but true what the internet was telling me which is always

a dangerous place to start is that for young people today that there was a couple studies done by boys and girls club that like 48% of kids under 20 experience bullying on a monthly basis

which seemed like reasonable maybe a lot then what surprised me is the number of adults that say that they get bullied which is more like 30 to 39% based on

two different studies. That surprises

you? Yeah, I guess so. I I I can't imagine uh using the word bully. Maybe maybe

that's it. M maybe uh to me there's some usage of the word bullying as an adult that feels like uh you're almost giving them power. Like you can't you can't

them power. Like you can't you can't bully me. You could be ugly. You could

bully me. You could be ugly. You could

be rude. You could be inappropriate. But

why would I label you? Because the way that I visualize a bully is like somebody big, kind of angry, stealing your lunch, right? Like I don't know.

I'm too old for that now. Um but but then I saw how people reacted to your videos about adult bullying in the workplace and it feels like a lot of

people feel like they are bullied frequently. Have you found that? I have.

frequently. Have you found that? I have.

One would be it's you and I probably do not live the same life that they do. Not for

sure. Let's put it that way. We're

entrepreneurs. We own our businesses. A

lot of people do not. And they work for other companies and peoples and hospitals and schools and you name it.

And they are part of that structure and that infrastructure that does not encourage, let's say, growth. Yeah. They

know that the job they got they work at a refinery is a job they're going to have for the rest of their life. Nothing

wrong with it. But that's not to say that there are people that that we can call bullies. They might not steal your

call bullies. They might not steal your lunch money, but they will steal your self-esteem if they can. There are

people that you may not call a bully, but they'll certainly boss you around.

There are people that they don't care about your feelings. It's not a punch to the face. It's a punch to the ego. It's

the face. It's a punch to the ego. It's

a punch to your to your self-confidence.

People have no problem stealing that and taking that away from you from condescending behavior. And it's

condescending behavior. And it's sometimes the people you're related to, especially the people you're related to that that makes it even harder. And so I think the biggest response from the

bullying, which you you I agree. I think

that's a fair question of I thought we were kind of over this. I thought

bullying was for was for the kids. Mhm.

Is that we're all the same kids. We're just taller. Look

same kids. We're just taller. Look

older. We got hair in weird places.

We're not, you know, or not. Or not. Do

you look you look great there? I'm

working on the That's the thing. We're

the same exact people in high school.

Rarely have they changed. There's some

have in college, law school, wherever you went. Everybody's mostly the the

you went. Everybody's mostly the the same person. And so, so, so really we

same person. And so, so, so really we shouldn't be surprised when there's bullying behavior in the workplace because we're all kind of just giant adult kids and people are struggling with this every single day. The world is

one big high school. Yeah. one big high school and it's from the halves and have nots. Who's the the

nots. Who's the the pretty get ready with me in the morning popular girls to the who let's go get

our gains and eat a dozen eggs while we work out our calves, you know? I don't

know. So, nobody wants to see those from me. You could maybe. Yeah, you know, I'm

me. You could maybe. Yeah, you know, I'm working on it. Uh but yeah, it's it's it's all the same spectrum, but there definitely is that segment of people who

would say, "Yeah, I in some way I am I feel bullied. I'm pushed around and I I

feel bullied. I'm pushed around and I I I don't feel good about it." And I can tell you from the amount of people that um have been so wonderful and so kind

and have given the messages of I have a bully at the workplace. I

have a a mother who pushes me around.

and I have a sister-in-law who I don't want to have to see. There's all kinds of behaviors that are the unmet needs.

And it's so funny, Cody, to see that when we get older, how much of that's resembled from our parents? How much

resembles of that from the people that we were around that we didn't know when we were kids? Yeah. You know, sometimes I think about um you know, have you ever met somebody who's just great at

comebacks? like they're just like

comebacks? like they're just like sometimes I think remember that show Entourage back I always liked Ari because people would say terrible things to him. I think that was right when we

to him. I think that was right when we were in I think we were probably similar ages. Yeah, that was right in the middle

ages. Yeah, that was right in the middle of middle school or high school. [ __ ] I don't know. I was I was probably older.

don't know. I was I was probably older.

I'm How old are you? I'm 37. Okay. 38.

I'm 36. Never mind. Dang, I forgot. 37.

I thought only us women do that. You

went older. See us women. I still feel 36 when I'm 38. I don't I'm cool with getting old, so I never I always think um I have to scale back. Yeah, is what I

typically have to do. Um well, I I remember watching Entourage and how he would respond and he would always have these amazing comebacks and I was never that type of human. I think like a lot

of us, you know, somebody says something really terrible to you and you think in your mind, I'm going to do all these things. I'm going to say it back. What

things. I'm going to say it back. What

you actually do instead is nothing.

That's usually what I do. I just like in my head I'm saying everything and in person I'm collapsing and not saying anything very cute or smart back. And so

I was wondering when somebody comes at you with an insult, how do you do quote unquote comebacks as an adult?

You give it about five to eight seconds of nothing. I hate that. They'll hate

of nothing. I hate that. They'll hate

that. I know. I know it feels uncomfortable to you, but it is one of the most powerful moves you can make.

When somebody is insulting you, where you lose is you send the Zingo rack back. So, let's say you're at a three

back. So, let's say you're at a three and they send you something that puts you at a five. Well, you have a choice.

Do I rise to the level of it or do I keep it there? Because if you rise to the level of it, then you just justify them to go to a a level seven. M and it it ratches ratchets itself up to where

really the person who speaks loses.

They're the first up to apologize. The

that's all like there's this unspoken rule of who has to apologize first in any relationship. Yeah. Uh or who's

any relationship. Yeah. Uh or who's expected and it's typically the person who spoke the last because they're determined to say the the worst thing because that's how they win. They have

to say the the mean thing. They have to throw it right back. So that's that's how they win the argument. But insults

in particular are ones that when you give it five to seven seconds of nothing.

It just lets those words fall a lot of the time. That's all it takes because

the time. That's all it takes because they have to hear their own ugliness out loud. They were hoping that you would

loud. They were hoping that you would catch it, Cody. That's what they're hoping. They're hoping you're going to

hoping. They're hoping you're going to go and just send it right back to them.

And then when they get hurt, they're going to go, "Ow, that hurt me. How dare

you?" Like that's what they're wanting.

So allows them to play the victim, allows them to to to play that card. But

when you just let it go, that's the biggest thing you talked about it earlier of this whenever you can, it is a big power move

when you can clue into somebody that what they say could not ever threaten you. It is such a move that doesn't

you. It is such a move that doesn't matter what you tell me, that's not a threat to me. you want to raise your voice that doesn't impress me. It's it

doesn't um impress me much. It is it it doesn't matter whatever it is that they can't do anything with it. I don't care what you tell me. It's not going to threaten me. It's not going to make me

threaten me. It's not going to make me rise up. And that's the person who's

rise up. And that's the person who's always controlled and the other person will always look unreasonable. Yeah,

that is a real superpower. So, okay. So,

somebody says something ugly to you. You

pause 3 to 5 to 7 seconds, something like that. And then what? What if they

like that. And then what? What if they come back? Cool. So, when they insult

come back? Cool. So, when they insult you, number one, I want you to give it five to seven seconds and nothing.

Number two, you're going to ask a question of in uh intent or outcome.

What were you looking for when you said that to me? A lot of the times that that does nothing for them. They're not going to do anything. They they they just will stammer over themselves. Number three,

it doesn't matter what they tell you or give you, just walk away.

That's that ending part we were talking about of just just let it go. There's

nothing that they can do with that anymore. They call you names and hope

anymore. They call you names and hope that you will say something worse.

That's generally what it what it is. But

they say that for for their own fight or flight. When they call you a name, it's

flight. When they call you a name, it's because most of the time they're feeling something that they want to cause you pain. They want that to hurt. Same thing

pain. They want that to hurt. Same thing

with somebody who's on the phone with you and they go, "You know what? I'm out

of here." Click. Or I can't get me out of here. and they leave the room, that's

of here. and they leave the room, that's their that's their flight. It's the same thing. They they say it's like picking

thing. They they say it's like picking up a I don't know, picking up a pen and wanting to throw it at you. Mhm. Instead

of an object, I'm using my words. Same

thing. I want the same exact result, same intent. Fascinating. You know what

same intent. Fascinating. You know what I really liked about the book and really all of your work is you can apply it certainly to difficult um ugly

conversations, but you can also it seems like really elevate your power through it as well. And so, you know, I was thinking about high performance communication.

And and I was wondering one, can you tell if somebody is going to be a high performer or going to be successful based on the way that they communicate?

A thousand%. And I'll tell you, the biggest key is their pace. How fast or slow they respond. If you ask me a question or let's say I'm

interviewing and you ask me an important interview question and I immediately respond, "Yeah, that's probably true."

You know, I thinking and again this is in my experience and I'm [Music] just what it's indicating is I didn't really listen all the way because it's

possible I missed the lowhanging fruit.

I miss the whole point of this because it's not just the experience in the words. It's how you handle the present

words. It's how you handle the present versus if you ask me a question and all sudden all of a sudden I went

in my experience and then I went on and I slowed down my words. All it says is I am controlled. I'm not emotionally

am controlled. I'm not emotionally reactive. It's the same people that and

reactive. It's the same people that and this is not to step on anybody's toes.

If you cuss in every other sentence, what you really indicate is I am emotionally sensitive.

It's I I'm overseeing my food. I don't

have any other words to explain how I'm feeling or what I'm doing. So, I just expect that throwing a curse word right in front of it is going to make it more impactful in

some way, but it also dilutes the message because that's not what anybody hears. So, it's kind of that same exact

hears. So, it's kind of that same exact concept. The pace of your conversation,

concept. The pace of your conversation, the difference between if I I was going to say, "I already told you I'm not going to do that, Cody. I already told you I'm not

that, Cody. I already told you I'm not going to do that." versus, "I already told you I'm not going to do that."

Like, that right there is who sounds more in control? Who sounds like they can be relied upon? Who sounds like this is a person who knows what's happening?

Who sounds like the person who's cannot be moved? It's always the slower.

be moved? It's always the slower.

How do you work on your inflection in order for people to take you seriously?

Because you have incredible pacing, inflection, presence, eye contact. That

is hard, I think, for a lot of people to do. What advice would you give somebody

do. What advice would you give somebody who doesn't think too much about the way they say things uh but only thinks about what they say? Oh, that's a good

question. Number one is you want to use

question. Number one is you want to use a tone that goes down. So if you pictured it free listening, if you pictured it on a graph, you want to

start at like a five and then you kind of go down to a two.

So you use it in a tone of let's say like at the table and I ask I was going to ask you to pass me the salt. I

wouldn't say can you pass me the salt as if like you don't know what it is. I'm

going to say can you pass me the salt?

So you're going down with it. Every time

person who goes up on the inflection it sounds a lot more uh uncertain unsure. So you want to kind of end downward and slow your words down. Two for eye contact. And I know we

down. Two for eye contact. And I know we have a mutual friend, Vanessa. I know

she also talks about this. People are

much more forgiving if you don't keep eye contact eye contact the whole time.

You can look around, but as long as you end the last bit of your sentence with eye contact, nobody will know the difference. Oh, interesting. Yeah. So,

difference. Oh, interesting. Yeah. So,

if you I have people when I trained um teach every one of my clients for deposition, I'll say, "Look, this video is going to be recorded. So, I want you to try and end all of your sentences

looking forward so it doesn't look like you're looking all over the place because when you do, then it looks like you're trying to hide or worse, don't look at me. Anytime you get a question, don't go uh and look at me. Don't do

that. So, I need you to keep looking.

And it's I can look all around this room, but it's not to the very end of my contact, the end of that sentence that I make that eye contact, you'll never feel like anything else is is different. But

three would be the slower your words come out, the more intentional they sound. And you don't want to use the

sound. And you don't want to use the filler words, the ums, the a's. It's

fine for everyday communication. If you

and I want to um all it up, we can knock ourselves out. Nobody cares. But when

ourselves out. Nobody cares. But when

you need that high performance communication, you need to get rid of all the filler words that water down your sentences and just serve them neat.

Yeah. It's interesting

because like I'm doing it right now.

When I'm thinking about something, I don't typically have eye contact because I'm usually listening right when I have eye contact. It's something I have to

eye contact. It's something I have to work on quite a bit actually. When I'm

really pondering something, I look up or I look down in order to get my words correctly. But it's interesting. I

correctly. But it's interesting. I

wouldn't ever end that way. I would

always start that way. So maybe

naturally I got lucky with that one. Um,

but the um ability to speak quickly without filler words I think is super important.

Um, you talk smoothly. I wouldn't say you talk slow though. I I guess I suppose as opposed to a lot of people, including me, you talk slower, right?

But there is also a real fine line between somebody who doesn't communicate concisely and somebody who communicates concisely

but slowly. So if somebody's listening

but slowly. So if somebody's listening to this, how do they determine, hey, I'm just talking sm uh smooth but slow versus I'm just talking too slow and not

getting to the point. Oh, we usually can tell that by the frustration of the other person. Yeah. Yeah. The feedback.

other person. Yeah. Yeah. The feedback.

Yeah. the other person will start doing what you we talked about. You start

popping your knuckles and breathing out your nose and getting frustrated because it's creating that anxiety in the in the conversation whenever you're you're doing that. I think that everybody right

doing that. I think that everybody right now at this this point of our life, we really are searching for calm energy.

You you want a leader to lead, they have calm energy. The the high performers,

calm energy. The the high performers, the people who are relied upon, they say, "You know what? I know that Cody is she knows what she's doing. Oh, I don't know what's going on. Thank goodness

Cody does. It's because of the calm energy. You think of any movie you've

energy. You think of any movie you've seen or you think of anybody in combat.

It's the leaders have the calm energy.

They do not respond emotionally to the chaos. And those are the people that

chaos. And those are the people that people look to and they look for that in everyday conversation. There's a reason

everyday conversation. There's a reason why when you go into your grandmother's house, all of a sudden you feel at ease.

M it's that calm energy that says don't worry honey you're good tell me all about it when you have this sense of you go into one of my favorite restaurants is this mom and pop she calls everybody

honey calls everybody darling sweetie it's like yes I just love we need that we really do more than you think we need that calm energy when you're around these people that are always anxious always go go go always want to just you

got to 10x everything about your life like that is that's a quick way to being really unsatisfied yeah with a lot of lot of things. There's nothing wrong

with talking slow. I would say people say I talk slower in person than I do in my videos because I'm not having to cram

everything into 47 seconds. Um, but it's it's this calm energy that that people are drawn to like a moth to a flame

because it's this vibe that you when you can come into the room and they go, "Oh, thank goodness they're here." like all of a sudden it's this everybody at the room feels different by your presence

and it's not because you're hyping everybody up. That's great. There's a

everybody up. That's great. There's a

place for that. That is not sustainable.

It's the calm energy that leaders show that means they always know that they're captain of the ship. Fascinating. So,

I'm sure there are many times where you feel super anxious and you feel elevated and you do not feel like the grounding energy. In fact, you'd love somebody

energy. In fact, you'd love somebody else to be that, right? What do you do to prepare yourself to be that calm in the storm? Is there something that you

the storm? Is there something that you do to regground yourself so when you walk in the door to your family? Yeah.

You're different, right? Well, biggest

key is I I I really do try to be exactly who I am at home, same at work, but you have to wear a different hat. Like I get it. It's this and it's it's rule number

it. It's this and it's it's rule number one in the book of Sate with Control.

Let your breath be the first word that you say. And I teach it to every one of

you say. And I teach it to every one of my clients before they answer a question. And when somebody's asking

question. And when somebody's asking them a question they don't like. And I

take my own medicine. I do the very same thing with and when an opposing attorney is saying something I don't like, you better believe I'm using my breath to

make sure I'm contin continually uh regulating my system. Yeah. When that's

all happening. Otherwise, you I'm bad at holding my breath. That's what happens, Cody. I I I'll hold my breath in moments

Cody. I I I'll hold my breath in moments of tension. Mhm. And then all of a

of tension. Mhm. And then all of a sudden I realize, why does my body feel like I'm drowning? Well, it's because you are. I mean, you're you're you're

you are. I mean, you're you're you're preventing oxygen from flowing. That's

why everything is tight. And that's why you yell cuz your your body goes, "I don't know what to do with all this trapped air we got. So, we better just shoot it out." It's because you just put

it like a in a bottle and shook it up, just waiting for it to to pop. But when

you breathe the entire time, it's like breathing underwater. you can put me as

breathing underwater. you can put me as deep as I need to go. I'm I'm still all right. Interesting. Uh no matter what

right. Interesting. Uh no matter what the pressure is. So, it's it's a lot of the letting your breath be the first word that you say. So, wherever a your

first word would be before you say the I don't agree with that or the that's not true, you put a breath. And what it does is it allows your logical analytical

side to stay at the forefront where you don't get emotionally swept. And the

benefit is so does that other person.

Yeah, that's what happens when we talk about the how do you handle insults.

When you allow that five to seven seconds, what often happens is that other person will all of a sudden their logical side will come up and go, "No, no, no. That's not what I want to say."

no, no. That's not what I want to say."

And they will apologize as soon as they said it. That's not what I meant to say.

said it. That's not what I meant to say.

I shouldn't have said that. What I meant to say was, and they'll adjust it because they realize they can hear it now. It's not what they want to put off.

now. It's not what they want to put off.

Yeah. You know what's interesting is um this is so good for negotiation, too.

You talk a lot about just communication and conversations in general, but so much of this it just reminds me of a mixture of like Robert Green and also Chris Voss and Yeah. Have you talked to

Chris yet? Yeah. Oh, yeah. He's got You

Chris yet? Yeah. Oh, yeah. He's got You guys have that same voice, too. Like his

has he done his radio operator voice for you yet? Oh, yeah. Of course. Yeah.

you yet? Oh, yeah. Of course. Yeah.

Yeah. Yeah. Is that like step one? Yeah.

Oh my goodness. And his stuff is uh mine I guess we came at a totally different ways and mine's more of this like good old country, you know, whatever. Yeah.

And his is this more northern mob boss type of like he could he could he could convince me to give you me to

like give him my couch while I sit on it. Like that's just what his voice can

it. Like that's just what his voice can do. So I I'm very curious what the

do. So I I'm very curious what the actual statistics would be about the important importance of voice. Oh, it's

got to be high. It has to be so high of what it does because he would be like, I agree. That's a it is a great couch. I I

agree. That's a it is a great couch. I I

just I need your couch. Like, dang. All

right. He seems like he needs it. I

Well, you know what's funny is him in particular, I think I've learned a ton from watching his stuff, and people are going to learn so much from reading your book because I one of my favorite mentors of all time said, uh, if you're

not capable of having difficult conversations to the point where you start to enjoy them because you learn from them, you'll probably never be very successful. Oh, yeah. That's good.

successful. Oh, yeah. That's good.

That's very true. I love that. I think

it is true. It's the more that you can learn. You say it somewhere. You say

learn. You say it somewhere. You say

something along the lines of um it's an opportunity to uncover. Yeah. Yeah. It

it's this idea that if you want to have a deeper relationship, then you have to have a deeper tolerance for difficult conversations. Like if you only want to

conversations. Like if you only want to have surface level conversations, well, I'll show you a surface level relationship. You're not going to be

relationship. You're not going to be able to go deep. Like you you and your husband have had some of probably the toughest conversations out of that. you

have the closest bond. People that have gone through the hardest moments together and come out of it will always be stronger. So, it's this idea that if

be stronger. So, it's this idea that if you shun difficult conversations, life is not going to be any easier. It's not It's not the way it

any easier. It's not It's not the way it works. It's almost it's the opposite. Do

works. It's almost it's the opposite. Do

you find that this generation, let's call it millennials and younger are having Are we by the way? I think we're millennials. Are we really? Yeah, we're

millennials. Are we really? Yeah, we're

we're actually like right in the middle.

Uh isn't that like 32 and below? 31 and

below. Nobody knows. It's impossible to determine, but they're younger than us.

That's what we know for sure. Say, I

don't know. I don't RZ. You have Riz.

Look at us. Aura. Aura. I don't know. I

don't think that's related. That's

unrelated. Um, we But so, does this younger generation, do they have a more difficult time having difficult conversations? That's something lots of

conversations? That's something lots of people talk about today. Young people

don't know how to talk to each other anymore. Young people don't want to have

anymore. Young people don't want to have difficult conversations. Young people

difficult conversations. Young people only want to text. Is that true? I think

some of it is we're just getting older, so we're getting more pnikity and grumpy about things of this other generation that know what it's like. Another part

of it is I do believe that there's so much transactional communication from text to kids on Snapchat that only communicate by emojis. And you have Tik

Tok and you have every other app that you and I never had. and coming up to see that I've seen the consequence of that is they don't know how to perform

in the headlights. They don't know how to bring up that very difficult conversation. They have a hard time

conversation. They have a hard time opening up. Mental health will always

opening up. Mental health will always continue to be something. I I do think we talked more the good news is we talk more about mental health than we ever have. I feel like we talked more about

have. I feel like we talked more about communication than we ever have. And I

mean all the all the wonderful things that you put out on your platform of encouraging people to go out on their own, how to take the most out of not just the wealth of money, but wealth of their life and and really grow all the

wonderful wonderful work that you're doing. It is it's wonderful in the sense

doing. It is it's wonderful in the sense of you're able to talk about it and it's now part of the conversation where 10 years ago, 20 years ago not a part of

it. It was never part of our parents

it. It was never part of our parents upbringing. I mean it was just there was

upbringing. I mean it was just there was no manual. there were no blogs and so

no manual. there were no blogs and so we're able to share the kind of things that we're able to share truly out the blessing of the same thing of social media. Yeah, it's definitely a

media. Yeah, it's definitely a two-sided, you know, it's a two-sided blessing and curse for sure. It's a

beast. But but also I think that comes down to the point that you just talked about, which is we've talked about this stuff more than ever. I feel like there have to be categorically more narcissists out there than they've ever been because everybody's talking about

everybody else that they've ever dated was a narcissist. Yeah. And so part of me wonders, do you think that sometimes we are too quick to label people

villains or victims or to say they're toxic or they're a narcissist and we're not? What have you found? You engage

not? What have you found? You engage

with hundreds of millions of people a month.

The narcissist is never them. Yeah. The

the difficult person is never them. It's

always the, "Oh my goodness, your content helped me so much with my narcissistic ex-husband or my narcissistic cousin or whatever it is."

It's just funny how the person they're having a problem with is never themselves. Now, that's not to say there

themselves. Now, that's not to say there are people that are truly have narcissistic tendencies. And you're

narcissistic tendencies. And you're exactly right. There is I've certainly

exactly right. There is I've certainly seen it. I know you've certainly seen it

seen it. I know you've certainly seen it that people are very quick. If you

disagree with me or we have a little scuffle or we have a breakup, well, you're just a narcissist. All you do is care about yourself. Well, a lot of it, too, is just self-preservation. I'm

going to say things that benefit me. I'm

not going to say things that benefit you. And out of that, we find that to be

you. And out of that, we find that to be narcissistic. Now, there's certainly

narcissistic. Now, there's certainly tendencies of somebody being manipulative, people lying, people gaslighting. That is a problem. I'm not

gaslighting. That is a problem. I'm not

a psychiatrist.

I don't know if anybody here is a psychiatrist. Absolutely not. Yeah. So,

psychiatrist. Absolutely not. Yeah. So,

I I'm not one to say if somebody is a a diagnosed narcissist or not. I can say 10 years ago, I don't think anybody said the word. Uh now, all of a sudden,

the word. Uh now, all of a sudden, they've popped up everywhere. It's all

the same people. We've just decided that's how we're going to label and and categorize it. So, it's you have to be

categorize it. So, it's you have to be really careful with how you categorize people. Yeah, it it does seem like that

people. Yeah, it it does seem like that to me because I think these days we're so quick to judge whatever the other side is on every side of the issue. And

what I love about your content and what you put in the book is that it's really not so much about the other person being bad. It's almost everything is super

bad. It's almost everything is super reasonable in how you respond. You're

not Ari from Entourage trying to make the other person feel bad actually, which I wanted a little bit of. You're

the opposite of that. you're just saying I'm going to downregulate and like if you decide to continue to act in a way that I don't like that's okay. Now, one

thing that I um I was thinking about uh jobs and I was like, man, you had one video where you talked about what to do when somebody cries in an argument and I

need to know two things. Yeah. One, you

got to tell us what you actually do and two, what do you think about crying in the workplace? I don't know. How do you

the workplace? I don't know. How do you have you had that happen? What do you do when it happens in the workplace? I had

it happen once and I totally I I just froze and and panicked and did everything the opposite of your of your recommendation. So, I need the advice

recommendation. So, I need the advice for myself. If you find yourself crying,

for myself. If you find yourself crying, your eyes watering in an argument, this is what you do.

Absolutely nothing. Don't you dare for one second apologize or be sad or apologetic that you cry. It is it is part of your

you cry. It is it is part of your natural biology. The higher the tension,

natural biology. The higher the tension, the higher the release. That's it. It's

it's what I say is it's your stress in liquid form. That's all it is. And what

liquid form. That's all it is. And what

you need to do is one recognize this is not something to apologize for. It's

what your body does naturally. Do you

apologize when you yell? that not that what you are it's that you uh the act of yelling it's what you say that gets you in trouble like you don't apologize when you belt when you sing it's the same thing it's just what you choose to come

out of your mouth how you form your words but number one you don't apologize for it number two label the tears so it can be let's say you you are at work

it's it's not the I'm so sorry I'm so sorry I'm crying oh my gosh I'm so embarrassed I'm so sorry uh none of that don't ever do that I don't I don't want to hear That is downgrading your own self-esteem. It's not that. Oh my gosh,

self-esteem. It's not that. Oh my gosh, I'm so sorry. I'm so embarrassed. I'm

sorry I'm crying. Nope. You're going to just wipe them away without saying anything. And if you need to label them,

anything. And if you need to label them, it's going to be these are tired tears.

These are grateful tears. These are

stress tears. These are overwhelmed tears. These these are tears that care.

tears. These these are tears that care.

Whenever you label them, you are claiming the power over them. It's not a I am just so pathetic. Oh my goodness, I need to just forget me. Let me be in the

background. Don't look at me, please. It

background. Don't look at me, please. It

is that you have to step into it of understanding what your body naturally does. And if you're the other person,

does. And if you're the other person, let's say, um, let's reverse this. And

I'm the one for some reason I'm starting to cry in this argument. Cody,

what you don't do is go, Here we go. All

right. Let me guess. You're going to cry. Yeah. Okay. All right. All right.

cry. Yeah. Okay. All right. All right.

Okay. No. No. You you cry. Get it all out. Yeah, that's right. I'm the bad

out. Yeah, that's right. I'm the bad guy. Like, that is just making it so

guy. Like, that is just making it so much worse. Again, it's biology. You

much worse. Again, it's biology. You

can't help it. It happens naturally.

There are people that are just big criers. And to me, that's their

criers. And to me, that's their superpower. They They can feel far more

superpower. They They can feel far more than anybody else can. It's their

emotional intelligence on display. That

just means they feel a lot. And I find it to be such a down I find it to be such um a disservice when people apologize

when they cry because it is it's part of what makes us human. What's scarier is if you never cry. That probably is scary. Yeah, that's scary. What are you

scary. Yeah, that's scary. What are you an an animal? Like a ro even animals cry. Like what are you robot? That is

cry. Like what are you robot? That is

just not that's not that's not real.

That's not realistic. So, um, one would be never apologize for it. You're not

going to say anything, I'm so sorry about this. Two is going to be that you

about this. Two is going to be that you label those tears. And if you're the other person, you're never going to make somebody feel bad for it. You're not

going to call them out. If you want to just nudge a tissue for them, that's it.

Don't pick it up and go, "Here, throw it at them or something." Just be there.

And don't stop the communication. If the

other person's crying, don't don't stop.

You can say, "You need a timeout."

That's fine. Otherwise, you just keep listening. In fact, you say out loud,

listening. In fact, you say out loud, "I'm listening. I'm

"I'm listening. I'm listening. Keep going. I'm listening."

listening. Keep going. I'm listening."

As if, "Don't worry about this. I'm not

paying attention to any of that. I'm

listening. Keep going." Like it that is way more empowering than you going, "Oh, oh, are you okay? You're crying. Do we

need to have a timeout? Or you as soon as you're calling attention to it, you've already went off track. Yeah.

Because you're it's almost like you're anxious about their emotions. You're

like, "Oh, let me put this away. Hide

it. Put it in a box. Oh, no. We can't

see it." Exactly. That was me for sure.

Totally failed. And there But there are also people that use tears to manipulate. And there are people that

manipulate. And there are people that can whip up tears on a dime to get what they want. But that all the more

they want. But that all the more highlights the importance of that does not change how you are going to talk to them. Interesting. Yeah. I'm listening.

them. Interesting. Yeah. I'm listening.

I'm here. You're good. As if it's not bothering you at all. I mean, just it's just part of biology. You wouldn't do anything different if you scratch their eye. I mean, it's an itch that they

eye. I mean, it's an itch that they scratched because their body told them it does. It's no different. Don't label

it does. It's no different. Don't label

it more. Yeah. You don't you you don't say, "Oh, you need to blow your nose.

Here we go." It's like it's just part of what makes us a human. Yeah. Well, I

think the opposite can happen in the workplace. As opposed to being annoyed,

workplace. As opposed to being annoyed, you can almost overcompensate um with kindness in a way. Oh, we don't need to talk about this. Oh, I'm so

sorry. Oh, let's take a break. Oh,

sorry. Oh, let's take a break. Oh,

you're right. Yeah. And and that is sometimes I think when tears can be used um from a non-positive perspective too.

But you have to control the frame as a boss I think also and say like okay um you know exactly what you said. I'm

listening. Yeah. Keep going. It's such a good way to do it if you do feel complete endearment and also to say, "Hey, we're still going to talk about this." Whether you need time or not is

this." Whether you need time or not is okay, but we got to have this conversation. Yeah. It's like a cop with

conversation. Yeah. It's like a cop with pulling somebody over who starts to cry thinking the crying is going to get them out of it. It's like you just like, "Oh, yep. No, we're still we're still going

yep. No, we're still we're still going to address what we're here to address.

You can cry. It's all good. I'm here.

I'm I'm listening. No, we're still gonna we're still going to have to do X, Y, and Z."

and Z." Uh, and it's it's a way that I think people find they don't want to they can't feel like they're fully themselves in in that moment. So, you're going to have to to let it go. Yeah. I did have

one employee that had a great line. I

thought she was like, "I am super emotional and I feel things a lot." And

she said, "But I have a high emotional metabolism." Oh, I like that. So she's

metabolism." Oh, I like that. So she's

like, "It might just I'm having happy tears or I'm having frustrated tears, but I'm actually I got it out and now I'm kind of like a dog shaking after, you know, getting attacked by something." I think that's genius. I

something." I think that's genius. I

like that a whole lot. I have to do a lot of the times in depositions. I'm

asking questions of somebody and it might be a very emotional I mean, we're talking about a child, their child who died in the accident. Yes. You see how that's very different? I'm going to be

as slow as I can even though there are questions I have to get on the record as part of the case that I have to talk to them about. And there are and there's

them about. And there are and there's one side and then there other people who know they're guilty, not from like a prosecution standpoint, but they know

what they've done. And so out of guilt, out of not wanting to be here or just overwhelmed, it's a very intense spotlight moment. They start to cry. and

spotlight moment. They start to cry. and

you never go a act exasperated about it.

It's still you're still gonna have to answer the question. I'm happy to give you all the space that you need, but that's that's the best way to handle it.

How important is smiling in communication? You smile a lot even like

communication? You smile a lot even like across your delivery lines. Is that

intentional? Is that who you are? And

should other people be smiling more as they communicate? Well, I'm definitely

they communicate? Well, I'm definitely not telling anybody that they should smile more. I'm not walking into that.

smile more. I'm not walking into that.

Yeah, that's You're right. You're right.

Not walking in the not walking in the You should smile more. Especially if

it's a woman. Come do it in the office.

That's a great idea. Yeah. I'm not

saying it, but nothing.

Um to the point of does the activity of smiling help or hurt you? It doesn't

hurt. Now, it has to be genuine. Like

for me, I always want to as part of my life of just who I am is I really enjoy through my personality giving warmth.

Yeah, I want them to feel very warm talking to me in depositions when I need to get information from my siblings when I'm calming them down growing up. I

mean, every step of the way, again, it's that calm energy. How can you feel very warm? When you're warm with someone,

warm? When you're warm with someone, they want to be near you. They want to give you more information. They want to work with you. Even on the opposite side of the table, especially in

negotiations, especially in business deals, if I can make the person feel good, separate from the actual deal that is being made, the the likelihood of the

deal getting being su successful just skyrockets. Too many times I've had it,

skyrockets. Too many times I've had it, let's say in the service industry, it's a waitress, it's somebody at the hotel counter, it's somebody who's behind whatever. If I can make them feel good

whatever. If I can make them feel good and just give the warmth of my genuine personality, they want to help you.

People have they feel needed when they can be helpful. And when it is that sense of warmth and smiling, it's a whole lot it's a whole lot better.

That's part of the you think of it like the music. If

you could pick out some of the top five people that are influential to you, Cody, and then you put like a a song with their name, think of the people

that calm you down and you can apply like a song or a band of who they would be. Have you seen those pictures that

be. Have you seen those pictures that match people to their dog? Oh, yeah. And

they I think they call that Bowsers, right? Where they look Yeah. They look

right? Where they look Yeah. They look

very They look very similar. And I

always find that so funny. Yeah. It's

the same kind of concept. You pick the song that goes with that person. And

what you'll find is whoever is the easiest to listen to. If it's just always really really loud and that frequency is high and they're always complaining and the registry is really

high, you don't want to listen to it. At

least not for long. Uh, and the people that are, you know, I'm I'm a I'm a James Taylor kind of guy. I'm I'm That's how I was raised. I'm a Jim Crochi. I'm

a singer songwriter era. That's how I was raised. And you know that that's how

was raised. And you know that that's how I talk and it's easy listening as time life would say. That's that's like my my kind of classics, right? And so you

apply that and it's just easy listening and you have people that are very hard and rock and stone and that's maybe more of a I don't know, maybe it's a pearl jam. Maybe maybe it's somebody who's a

jam. Maybe maybe it's somebody who's a lot more harder off the cuff. Maybe

there's some Metallicas out there. I

mean, there are people that you you apply that that's how you want to listen to them and that's how long you want to listen to them. It's the people that are easy to listen to and go, you know, I could I could put this on the background. I can listen versus that I I

background. I can listen versus that I I honestly can't take much of their personality. It's it's I like I don't

personality. It's it's I like I don't enjoy that kind of music. Yeah. It's the

same exact concept. That's actually a great mechanism to use to see if you want to spend more time with somebody or not. as I was picturing vases. I had an

not. as I was picturing vases. I had an immediate reaction to song which might actually tell you whether this is a friend you want to spend a lot of time with. Yeah. Or a spouse. I mean, or a

with. Yeah. Or a spouse. I mean, or a relationship. It's what's the band that

relationship. It's what's the band that you you put with them because that's that's the vibe. Yeah. It's a good point. And there's no right or wrong

point. And there's no right or wrong answer. It's just right or wrong for

answer. It's just right or wrong for you, which I like. Yeah. It's all it's all matter of taste. Yeah. We actually

when I first started filming content when uh like maybe you guys are like me, but when I'm seriously thinking about something and you're like deep in your mind and I'm very I have a very serious

face and so I make this intense face and so they used to have to put this big uh this big sign behind me that just said smile [ __ ] cuz I just don't. Yeah. Yeah. And

so and and I realized though that I think if you can choose almost between in many instances hyper competence or hyperikability, I might heir on the side

of likability more often than I ever thought. Oh yeah. And this is a perfect

thought. Oh yeah. And this is a perfect example of why. But this is coming from a finance hardo like me. Yeah. Where I

thought I would choose hyper competence all the time, right? It's not the case though. It is extremely effective. it it

though. It is extremely effective. it it

loses its steam faster than likability.

Yeah. You you can do something because somebody's really efficient. You will do it more if you like them. And so it's people will follow you longer. People

will listen to you longer. People are

willing to make shortcuts, exceptions.

They will make a miracle for you if they like you. And that's not from a position

like you. And that's not from a position of faking it. That's not what I'm saying. I'm not saying at all. I mean,

saying. I'm not saying at all. I mean,

you know good and well from our personalities. There's no faking this.

personalities. There's no faking this.

people know that's not what we'll figure it out real quick. Exactly. Yeah. Yeah.

It's just who we are. Now, anybody can call it spade a spade. So, I'm not at all saying you have to smile or be warm.

And if that's not you, don't don't worry about it. You always have to be

about it. You always have to be authentic and genuine to yourself. I

would say also for me from even the importance of in trial litigation, I might be sitting down and somebody else is questioning a witness.

Mhm.

If the judge rules against me on something, maybe the attorney is going into something we agreed already before the trial strategy, he can't go into now. If I object and go, "Objection,

now. If I object and go, "Objection, your honor, he can't we uh, you know, he can't talk about this and that's a speaking objection. Don't worry about

speaking objection. Don't worry about it. If if I said something, objection,

it. If if I said something, objection, your honor, hearsay, and the judge ruled against me for some reason." And I went and I acted put out. Now, how do you think the jury is going to react?

They're going to go, "Oh, there's something he doesn't want us to know."

they're going to say, "Oh, he's hiding something. Oh, he's not authentic. Oh,

something. Oh, he's not authentic. Oh,

it's not real." Versus me acting like it just doesn't bother me. And so most of the time, if you can just act pleasant and polite, if you have a hard time doing that, then that's that's just

going to be a hard life. I I find it in in my opinion. There's a lot to be happy about. But yeah, if you if you can

about. But yeah, if you if you can be if you smile, it's never going to hurt you. that that doesn't mean it's

hurt you. that that doesn't mean it's like it for some people you constantly have to I have to remember oh yeah I my neutral face is not that likable.

There's some that like my sister I love my sister Sarah if you're listening I love you that um when she's not smiling

you think she hates everybody. Yeah. I

mean she has a very hard resting face.

Yeah. But when you talk she's as pleasant and as happy as can be. So, you

just have to go with what's natural to you. Yeah. I think, you know, and a lot

you. Yeah. I think, you know, and a lot of what you talk about is you go with what's natural to you, but at least you can choose. If you know the tools on the

can choose. If you know the tools on the table, then you could say, "Hey, listen.

My face is naturally angry looking." And

so, I don't always feel like smiling, but I do it more because I know this tool on the table works in helping other people like me. And if they like me, then I might get more of the life that I want because I might be able to walk a little lighter on the world. My husband

has the same thing. He has like a very square jaw. He's kind of an intense

square jaw. He's kind of an intense face. And he will just have people give

face. And he will just have people give him a harder time than me for whatever reason. And a lot of times I joke that

reason. And a lot of times I joke that it's because he looks so serious. And I

think there's something really to this.

And so if you can steal these hacks, then why not? Yeah. Oh yeah. If they're

just there, you know, why not? Well,

there's people who look scarier than other people. He's a little scared. I

other people. He's a little scared. I

mean, that's probably why. And um and so when you have people that go it's and it's it's just part of life. It's

the who you see is who you think they are and then you get actually get to talk to him and the big huge guy is the big teddy bear or um you know it's it

combs it a million different ways. But

anytime that you can just give a little bit of a little bit of warmth, even if it's a little joke, even if it's a little bitty comment, you're going to find you're going to get more out of it

than you ever thought.

What in this book? You have done an incredible amount of work, it seems to me, on learning how humans interact and

on being able to share the kind of deep psychological reasons that we do it, but very simply. Are there things that you

very simply. Are there things that you don't get to talk about as much? Like do

I imagine people ask you a lot the same kind of questions because you have these incredible responses to let's say like your top 30 most human issues. What do

you not talk about as much that you wish you could? Listening.

you could? Listening.

Anytime I've made a video on listening, it's the worst viewed video I ever have.

Wow. Nobody wants to learn how to listen. It's true. They love the stuff I

listen. It's true. They love the stuff I have on how to deal with a toxic personality or a narcissist or how to, you know, how to handle those belittling comments, but they they don't want to

listen to the how to listen better.

Yeah. Why? Why is that? Because we think that it's just other people don't listen to us, not we don't listen to other people. It's because the problem isn't

people. It's because the problem isn't us. The problem's them. Yeah. And what

us. The problem's them. Yeah. And what

happens is they miss so much of the good stuff in life by not listening. They

hear active listening, which I don't even know if I know what that means, but it's for somebody who interviews, for example, if you're only focused on the next question, you're not really

listening to what I say. And then it becomes a little inorganic and mechanical. New attorneys do this. Very

mechanical. New attorneys do this. Very

green attorneys. They might be in a deposition and they'll go, um, and you were treated by ex doctor. And while the person is talking, they're just looking down at their next question and they go,

"Okay, uh," and they read the next question, but they just missed the lowhanging fruit, the wonderful fact that that client or that witness just gave them. And so, too often we we're

gave them. And so, too often we we're not listening to understand, we're listening to respond. And that's very natural. But that's where if you can

natural. But that's where if you can just slow your conversation down to just have the pauses in it, that means I'm fully listening to your question. Just

like we talked about, there's a difference between if you said, "Hey Jefferson, how was your day?" And I was like, "Good. It was good. Really good."

like, "Good. It was good. Really good."

versus you asking me, "Hey Jefferson, how was your day?" And I said, "It was good, Cody. It was a good day." Like, which one sounds like you

day." Like, which one sounds like you actually listened? Which one sounds like

actually listened? Which one sounds like you actually absorbed it? It's always

the one that has the pauses and it costs you nothing to do. How do you get people to care about listening more then? Do

you just reframe the hook of the video so that it becomes like nah? You just

let it. No, I just don't think they'll It's It's always the It's always the other person. It's like uh on when

other person. It's like uh on when you're driving, right? Either somebody's

going too fast or too slow. Yeah.

They're never going the right speed.

Yeah. If if it's you driving, if somebody's on your rear, you're like, "What's this guy's problem?" If you're driving and they're going too slow, you're like, "Get out of my way." It's

never It's never about the other person.

I find people with the least amount of like emotional intelligence are the ones that drive in the left lane and go slow.

Oh, god. Yes. Like here in Texas, uh, in the US, you have a right lane and a left lane. The left lane is for passing.

lane. The left lane is for passing.

Right lane is if you're going the speed limit, right? Yeah. And the people that

limit, right? Yeah. And the people that are in the left lane and go the speed limit or go slower and there's nobody in the right lane. It's the worst. Like it

just now for me I could never like it bothers me for me to be in the left lane if I'm not going fast. Like I'll get out of people's way. There's some people who never feel that Cody. They just like I'm just driving. Like they just got they're

just driving. Like they just got they're probably so happy. I couldn't They probably have the best life. They really

do. But I I I wear people's emotions and so you never I'm like that person who I don't want to disappoint them or they would feel a certain way if I did X Y and Z.

Yeah. Yeah. I think if there was some way to encourage people to listen more, cool. But nah, it's always broken it

cool. But nah, it's always broken it yet. It's always the we care about if

yet. It's always the we care about if we're the pedestrian walking the street, we hate all the cars. If we're the car, we hate all the pedestrians. You know, I feel like Dale Carneg's book, the um how

to win friends and influence people.

Yeah. That's the only listening lesson that really stuck with me was remember that part where it talks about how if you're sitting down with somebody and he was sitting with somebody kind of famous and he was a nobody at a dinner and I'm

probably messing up the story, but a little, you know, uh storytelling. Um

nobody would know. Okay, good. So he

sits down with this famous person and um everybody else is trying to get the famous person's attention and uh as he's sitting down with him all he does is asks him questions. He doesn't tell him anything about him. He doesn't show how

smart he is. He does nothing else except ask questions. And then at the very end

ask questions. And then at the very end he hears this person explaining to another person how he met this fascinating young man at this dinner when in reality what was fascinating was just he let him speak about himself the

whole time. And I don't know why but

whole time. And I don't know why but that just stuck with me so much. I was

like, that is a superpower to be able to sit and listen to somebody. You don't

have to be interesting. You don't have to be smart. You don't have to be good-looking. You can just be intent in

good-looking. You can just be intent in your listening. And it's so rare these

your listening. And it's so rare these days that people will they will think you are fascinating by saying almost nothing except a question. Yeah. The

number one instant ability to have somebody like you is you don't even have to like them. You just have to be interested enough to ask them more

questions and you use their name. If I

use your name, let's say four or five times in conversation, you're going to go, "Oh my gosh, I really like this person." It doesn't really matter what

person." It doesn't really matter what we talk about, but if I use your name, Cody, back and forth. And every once in a while, I go, "Yeah, you know, Cody, that's a really good point." Or, "Cody, what are you thinking about?" All of a sudden, you go, "You know what? This

person's so pleasant. Oh, they say wonderful things." There's nothing more

wonderful things." There's nothing more sweeter than the sound of their own name. If you want people to listen, use

name. If you want people to listen, use their name. Somebody is talking trying

their name. Somebody is talking trying to overpower a boardroom or a Zoom meeting, use their name. They'll stop. I

mean, it's it's like a a deer in the headlights. It's the bell that they

headlights. It's the bell that they can't help but listen to. If you keep on and on on and you're talking, I say, "Cody, you keep going." I say, "Cody, you'll stop." You're right. Yeah. It

you'll stop." You're right. Yeah. It

it's it's something that it gets our attention every single time and we love it. We can't we can't get enough of our

it. We can't we can't get enough of our name. Uh it's it's like a like a dog.

name. Uh it's it's like a like a dog.

You you say its name and it it perks up.

It's a thing that they recognize. I like

you more already. You already said it four or five times. Man huge Jefferson.

Wild. What' you talk about? I don't

know. I don't know what he said. Yeah.

He kept singing this word Cody continuously. Exactly. That's that's the

continuously. Exactly. That's that's the and that's the point is that if you can ask questions about them and sprinkle in their name, there's nothing wrong with it. It's not manipulative. It's not

it. It's not manipulative. It's not

fake. It is showing genuine interest in who they are and they will go I had the most wonderful conversation. They're not

going to go all they asked about was me.

You know what's weird? I wonder if if people feel like this, but it does feel intimate to say somebody else's name a lot. It is. Yeah. Why is it? because we

lot. It is. Yeah. Why is it? because we

don't like saying like Jefferson tell me about this. It just I guess it is it's a

about this. It just I guess it is it's a direct ping at you. It is I you know I better say something that needs to be said after the word. I don't know why but it it feels

um it feels intimate or irregular. It's

the It's the straightest connection right to their heart is I mean you've heard when a super fan to some famous celebrity and they're like you said my

name like it is they can't get away from that because it is just a direct line of who they are. You've you've you've all I have is my name. You can't take that

away. It's the one thing I can have. And

away. It's the one thing I can have. And

to have the power of that name be yours and yours alone. and you speak to that, people love it. So even if we begin a conversation and I say, "Cody, you have something hard to talk

about." All of a sudden, you're still

about." All of a sudden, you're still going to be a little bit more friendlier to me than if we sat down and I said, "We have some stuff to talk about. A lot

more cold." But if I use your name one or two times, then it's going to get you warmed up. Same thing in like a

warmed up. Same thing in like a deposition.

You can always say, you know, Mr. Williams, Mrs. Sanchez, what whatever it is. But when you use their their name,

is. But when you use their their name, there's there's nothing better that's going to get them to to perk up. And and

the the great thing is when people will actually reciprocate in conversation.

What about you? That's awesome. But

they're not guaranteed to do that. But

everybody loves to feel like they're being interviewed. Everybody loves to be

being interviewed. Everybody loves to be on a podcast of their own. That's true.

That's funny. Yeah. One of my favorite uh I shouldn't say favorite, one of my employees that I love, there's no favorites. They're like children, you

favorites. They're like children, you know? every single one of you, Nick,

know? every single one of you, Nick, you're at the top of the list. Um, she

always jokes that she sends me podcasts because she's like, you know, they're long voice notes. Um, and and her and it kind of made me chuckle because she's like, everybody, you know, the reason

why people take over Zoom meetings, um, it was a comedian that said it, I think.

They're like, the reason why uh, people take over Zoom meetings is because they want to have their own podcast, but they don't. Exactly. And I I I chuckled

don't. Exactly. And I I I chuckled thinking about that. I'm like, podcasts are a lot of work. Are you sure? Yeah.

But but I understand the the point a lot. Yeah. Same thing at dinners, same

lot. Yeah. Same thing at dinners, same thing at a meeting. It's they all want to feel like how did you get here? How

how did you become who you are? Yeah.

Well, it goes back to your original point on curious questions, right? You

know, I remember when I first started out in investing, coming from journalism, people like, "Weren't you scared about math and Excel and all of this?" And I certainly was. It's not my

this?" And I certainly was. It's not my strong suit. But thankfully, I didn't

strong suit. But thankfully, I didn't realize that there there's one real skill set if you want to make a ton of money in investing and it is asking a lot of questions continuously. Oh yeah.

And never being scared that you don't know the answer because uh you're it's a it's a you know zero sum game. You

either get all the information to make the best decision or you don't. And uh

and I think life might be like that.

Difficult questions equal the right outcome. Yeah. I I what I have found to

outcome. Yeah. I I what I have found to be true is that people that are in positions of success and you were to ask them the question of how did you get that the answer will be I

asked I mean there's just so many times I asked them how did you get their number I asked them how did you get that position I asked for it this just it's a

fear of not wanting to make the ask and it's not difficult when you can pos put yourself as the position of the learner no matter what let's say it's a you're

new at the company and you're looking at hopefully getting a a raise soon or something. You want to work your way up.

something. You want to work your way up.

Instead of coming into that conversation going, "This is what I want." Um, and I want that. That's a

want." Um, and I want that. That's a

little bit different from me saying, "How did you get to where you are?" Or if I wanted a a raise, how how

are?" Or if I wanted a a raise, how how does that happen? Or when you got a raise, how did you do that? You put it them as the teacher, them the Yoda, you

the the what is it? Padawan, I don't know. Skywalker nailed it. Nailed it.

know. Skywalker nailed it. Nailed it.

That as soon as you're able to do that of teach me your ways, sensei, they will give it to you and they're happy to do it. You ask the people who've made the

it. You ask the people who've made the most money you've ever made. They are

generous with their advice, generous with their lessons because that's a lot of the time that's the easiest form of generosity that they can have and they're looking forward to it. Yeah.

Even the wealthiest people we know can be extremely alone. And so to for them to be able to share a little bit with you, they just you just have the ability

to pick up nuggets. Yeah. I advice I got from another mentor of mine was if you want to uh get money, ask for advice and if you want to get advice, ask for money. Oh, that's good. I love that. I

money. Oh, that's good. I love that. I

thought that was so true. That is so true. You know, that's great. Yeah.

true. You know, that's great. Yeah.

Because often they want you to show them that they are on a pedestal and then they might actually just end up giving you the thing that you actually want out of it, which is circular but but true.

Or asking them, let's say you're at that workplace, asking the supervisor what they would do in your place. Yeah. if

you wanted if you wanted to move up up five, you know, promotions or whatever, what what do you think I should do first? And they will give you the road

first? And they will give you the road map of how to do it. Yeah. You I want to kind of end on two things here. Um you

mention you started to mention it. Let's

say that you are about to have a really difficult conversation. What are some of

difficult conversation. What are some of the things you absolutely should not do that most people do when they're going to have one? Begin with the fluff. this

uh compliment sandwich, what they call that. Yeah, it's uh the compliment

that. Yeah, it's uh the compliment sandwich is a little hard to chew and almost impossible to swallow. It's this

idea of when you give the hey, look, we've really enjoyed your time here. We

think you're just I think you're such an awesome person and you're so great, Cody. Uh so listen, um and then they

Cody. Uh so listen, um and then they deliver the the bad news. Well, that

just means whatever they said before wasn't true. They said the word but meaning everything that came out of it didn't mean anything. It's like

saying I love you but that's got to go.

Like everything it doesn't matter what they said before it it's always the end.

And so what you do is you leave them to kind of just twist in the wind and it it's not nearly as genuine. So instead

what you have to do is lead with the difficult. Trust me it will make it

difficult. Trust me it will make it easier. It only gets harder if you start

easier. It only gets harder if you start with the easy and gradually progress to the bad news. When somebody says something like, "This is going to be

hard to hear." If I versus me saying, "Hey, Cody, um, uh, listen, you know how it's been really hard here lately and you know, we've it look this economy,

you know, and the economy like whatever it is, you're just you keep on going versus me saying, "Cody, this is going to be hard to hear. Cody, this is gonna be hard for us to talk about. This isn't

going to be fun. You're not gonna like this. Or just as simple as this is going

this. Or just as simple as this is going to be a difficult conversation. All of a sudden, Cody's gonna ready herself and go, "Okay, it's kind of this," all right, lay it on me. Everybody who you

could possibly say that to has that same power. When you try and babyfoot it

power. When you try and babyfoot it around and start with the icing, you're being disingenuous. And

what you're saying is you're not emotionally resilient enough to handle it. Um, I'm too afraid to disappoint you

it. Um, I'm too afraid to disappoint you because I want you to still like me. But

in truth, the kinder thing is to say, I'm telling you this way because I like you. Or even if you prime the

you. Or even if you prime the conversation of, Cody, I'm telling you this because you can take it.

I'm telling you this bad news because I like you and I have to I have to give it to you. Then you give the bad news.

to you. Then you give the bad news.

That's going to be a whole lot better to start your difficult conversation every single time. Whether it's a sensitive

single time. Whether it's a sensitive conversation, whether it's you need to fire somebody, whether it's you need to talk about a difficult subject, you label that conversation to let them know

rather than them having to try and figure it out of like what's they're waiting for that hammer to drop. Yeah.

You know what else is fascinating is every time you do that, you want to nod back. Like if you say, "Cody, this is

back. Like if you say, "Cody, this is going to be a difficult conversation."

My initial reaction is like, "Okay."

Yep. Yep. Yes, it will be like it feels like truth. You've already got me having

like truth. You've already got me having confirmation. Yep. Verbally or or

confirmation. Yep. Verbally or or physically. So, it's interesting. And

physically. So, it's interesting. And

you always think the worst. Yeah. If I

were to say, Cody, I got bad news.

You're going to think somebody died or you might be thinking you're getting fired or you might be thinking what you're going to think the very bottom of it. And if it is the bottom, then you

it. And if it is the bottom, then you expected it. Yeah. And if it's not, most

expected it. Yeah. And if it's not, most of the time it's not as bad as you think. You go, "Oh, okay. Oh, that's it.

think. You go, "Oh, okay. Oh, that's it.

Okay, I can handle that. Like, it's this reverse psychology of you. Uh, I can handle that. That's not nearly as bad

handle that. That's not nearly as bad about as I thought it was going to be.

Jefferson, you talk the most about interpersonal relationships and not maybe as much about relationships. Yeah.

But if there's a young man or woman out there wanting to have better conversations with the opposite sex, what is the most applicable advice you have for communications from all the

things that you talk about? Well, that's

not easy. I know for when it comes to real relationships that you're wanting to build, one is transparency. Like the

number one killer is the assumed or unspoken expectations.

Let's put it in in everyday life. Most

of the time we text, right? That's

that's how we communicate.

When you read into somebody's text and the voice that you hear it in and you expect it to be ugly or not nice and it's a fine, oh okay, oh yeah, fine, all

right, good night. Like it's one of those as simple as uh oh okay, I guess they hate me. As soon as you get to that point in your life or anytime in that conversation,

you are are already setting yourself up for failure in communication in the long run. M you have to voice what those

run. M you have to voice what those expectations are. So even if you were to

expectations are. So even if you were to let's say text that if you can quickly text back, did you mean for that to be short? Or did you mean for that to sound

short? Or did you mean for that to sound upset? And they go, no, no, no, no. I

upset? And they go, no, no, no, no. I

was just in the middle of X, Y, and Z.

Or, well, I just didn't like that you said this. Oh, okay. And let's address

said this. Oh, okay. And let's address it. It's this goes back to this fear of

it. It's this goes back to this fear of wanting to say the the hard thing instead just complaining about it and then later calling them a narcissist.

Yeah, exactly. It doesn't work out well, but it's all over the internet. So,

what's better to say, did you mean Jefferson to say to sound upset or did you mean Jefferson to be short or to say

I took it as short? Like, no. It should

always be on them. It that did Did you mean for that? For that. I'm not saying you. Yeah. So, don't put their name in

you. Yeah. So, don't put their name in there. Don't Don't personalize it. Good

there. Don't Don't personalize it. Good

one. Detach it. Detach the

personalization. So, that way it's not feeling like it's a you and you don't want to take it on yourself because that sounds a little too I don't know what to say. I I feel

like you are being short. That would not sound as smooth. That wouldn't be dismissive. that might be too much.

dismissive. that might be too much.

There's nothing wrong with that. I mean,

that's perfectly fine. But the did you mean is giving them the grace of the fact that they did not without internalizing it. Uhhuh. And so it's not

internalizing it. Uhhuh. And so it's not even you. It doesn't get to the point of

even you. It doesn't get to the point of me feeling like that. It's just simply uh hey, I'm giving you a quick mirror here. Did you mean for that to sound

here. Did you mean for that to sound upset? Did you mean for that to sound

upset? Did you mean for that to sound rude? are between me and my wife, it's

rude? are between me and my wife, it's did you mean for that to sound short?

Mhm. Because we're on the go and we're doing things and sometimes it's like, "Oh, okay. Well, I guess she's mad." Uh,

"Oh, okay. Well, I guess she's mad." Uh,

but it's no, it's just I'm dropping off the the kids. I'm running this errand.

I'm on the phone. I'm on the phone with the client. I'm texting you while I'm on

the client. I'm texting you while I'm on the phone, right? And so, a lot of the times it's just the did you mean because most of the time they did not mean. It's

wild though how those few words me change so much. They change everything.

I know. So, you really got to pay attention. You got to read the book. You

attention. You got to read the book. You

got to read it twice. Um, it's an incredible uh book. I think you've already sold hundreds of thousands of copies. You have people over the world

copies. You have people over the world learning how to communicate with a little bit more kindness on both sides.

And it's not manipulative, which I really love. We're not in the era of

really love. We're not in the era of some guys that are, you know, that I knew historically who taught about seduction and communication. This seems

to be in a very wholesome way. Might be

your Bowmont roots. That's probably

You're probably right. You think so?

You're probably right. Well, thank you, Cody. Um, if you had to leave people

Cody. Um, if you had to leave people with one thought, like your favorite part of the book that you want them to take with them today, what would it be?

Have something to learn, not something to prove. Whenever you're in a

to prove. Whenever you're in a conversation with a friend, with a spouse, significant other, anytime at work, living room, boardroom, have

something to learn, not something to prove. When you set out to prove them

prove. When you set out to prove them wrong, you will most likely get less in return. But when you set out to ask the

return. But when you set out to ask the question internally of where is this coming from? What do I have to learn

coming from? What do I have to learn here? Your conversation's always going

here? Your conversation's always going to go a lot better and you're going to have a better communication and a better relationship. And that means a better

relationship. And that means a better life. So good. I actually uh always

life. So good. I actually uh always watch out for the guys with the slow southern draws because the people who have done the best deals against me who have just beat me up more than anything

have been smooth talking Texans. Oh, you

got to watch out for those. You got to watch out. I remember up to no good.

watch out. I remember up to no good.

They're up to no good. Well, they're

also they always uh one of my favorite guys in the world, he's incredible dealmaker. I won't say his name because

dealmaker. I won't say his name because he'll get embarrassed, but he's got a real slow southern draw and he'll always say, "Well, you know, for a kid from I won't say I'm just a I'm just a guy from Texas and I don't really understand

that. Could you explain it to me?" And

that. Could you explain it to me?" And

then I'll explain it to him and then he'll proceed to just shred me. That's

how that's how he know. That's how you know he knows. That's how you That's the giveaway. That's the dead giveaway that

giveaway. That's the dead giveaway that he already understands it. He's already

I'm just kind of slow. I Can you explain that to me again? I'm like, "Oh, [ __ ] Here he comes." My favorite is to use is maybe. So like somebody says something,

maybe. So like somebody says something, no matter if it's an idea or it could be something mean or condescending or typically it's some kind of idea. I'll

go well maybe. So like that right there to me is it's my favorite power move to to do because there's no there's nothing you can do with it. And uh what happens

is the other person will actually start talking and like saying my point for me in many ways. But yeah, you just kind of slowly go, well, maybe so. It's also the Well, that's a good dear friend of mine,

Joe from Kentucky. That's what he does.

He goes, well, he just kind of leaves it. Well, it's a great attitude to have.

it. Well, it's a great attitude to have.

It really is. It goes back to just being in the pocket of I'm not really going to be upset about this. Well, maybe it is, maybe it isn't. I I don't know. We all

need to be a little more southern. Okay,

we have one last thing we do on the podcast. Yes. Okay, I'm ready. Okay. So,

podcast. Yes. Okay, I'm ready. Okay. So,

what we do is you take a couple minutes, we stand outside and you write a little postcard to young Jefferson. Oh, I love that. Something that you would tell him

that. Something that you would tell him and you're going to read it aloud to everybody else. Don't give away too big

everybody else. Don't give away too big of a secret. Um, but we'll step out and you write a little postcard to yourself.

Okay. Okay. This is

to I imagined a like a 10 11 year old Jefferson who is um the oldest of four right at this time

as oh I said Jefferson you don't have to carry it you are good just as you

are so proud of you with or without it you're good enough I love Jefferson, that was my letter. That's so

beautiful. Thank you. Yeah, it's

uh I have always been the the kind that I put a lot on my shoulders really early on and as a older brother and I'm

like a old I mean, you know, this I'm like a old soul type of thing. And so

there's a part of me that I grew up really quickly and I don't feel like I enjoyed life as much as I could and I I put a I put a lot of pressure on that

little boy. Yeah. Yeah. You still

little boy. Yeah. Yeah. You still

picture him? Oh, yeah. I can see him.

Yeah. Yeah. And what's crazy is I see him in my son. And so I mean I he he looks just like me. He acts just like

me. And so to, you know, take his face

me. And so to, you know, take his face in my hands and tell him to look at me and tell him he's perfect and he doesn't have to hold it. He'd have to carry it

because I can see what he's doing cuz I did it. Of you know, trying to put on

did it. Of you know, trying to put on the face and be the the big brother and everything for me to tell him, "You're doing just you're just as fine. I'll

carry it. Don't worry." Like that kind of stuff is uh it's also healing that I in many ways I'm talking to myself. It

has to be, right? You get to go full circle. Yeah. It's And it's it's really

circle. Yeah. It's And it's it's really cool. Oh, it's so beautiful. Well, we do

cool. Oh, it's so beautiful. Well, we do this because I think a lot of times people get on shows and lots of followers and people think that anybody's any different. No, we're not.

You know, we all got that little thing inside of us that we're still trying to make feel like it's okay. Yeah. We're

all the same that we talked about. We're

all the same little same little kids. Circle. That's right.

It really is. We're all the same same little kids. Yeah. But it's beautiful

little kids. Yeah. But it's beautiful that you share because then people get to say, "Man, I look up to Jefferson so much." Yeah. And simultaneously they get

much." Yeah. And simultaneously they get to know maybe I might just be like him.

Maybe I could be better than him. Maybe

I could be better than Cody. And like

God, that'd be cool, you know? Yeah.

Please.

Like mine's a little bar, but like you could jump in. Jefferson, you're the man. The book is beautiful. The work you

man. The book is beautiful. The work you do is so beautiful. Thank you for being here today. Thank you. Thanks so much

here today. Thank you. Thanks so much for having me. Thanks for having me. Our

pleasure. H you guys. I was almost tearing up with Jefferson's ending there. And I hope the takeaway for all

there. And I hope the takeaway for all of you is that you are so important and you are a big deal to us. That's why we called this the Big Deal podcast. You're

a big deal to me and it matters to me that you get to share your truth with the world. And I think this podcast will

the world. And I think this podcast will hopefully get you to share it a little bit more easily and to have more people take your message. And speaking of sharing, if you have the chance, share

this podcast with somebody that you love. spread a message of positivity in

love. spread a message of positivity in a world that's not interested in it.

Thank you all until next week. Hey guys,

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