OpenClaw Explained: Baby AGI, Security Threats, Mac Mini Became Everyone's Supercomputer | #237

We have a special guest with us today.

Uh, Alex Finn, give us the 101 here for folks.

>> Open Claw is basically a open-source, fully customizable, self-improving, self-learning self-evolving personal AI agent. This is kind of the answer

AI agent. This is kind of the answer Apple's been looking for for years now.

Clearly, when people want to run AI locally, their brain just goes to Mac minis. the infinite potential of what I

minis. the infinite potential of what I could do 247 all the time everywhere all at once.

>> We've never seen an AI that can do that before because >> yeah this news came out yesterday. Open

claw flaw lets any website silently hijack a developer's agent. This is one of several reasons why again I'm reticent and I'm I'm sure we'll get into this. It's a dangerous world out there

this. It's a dangerous world out there for these baby AGIs. I I think it's a malicious world out there for them. I

believe this is the most important technology of our lives. I think it's the best application of AI ever. Uh I'm

totally blown away by it. I think it's incredible.

>> Alex, if this isn't too impertinent. May

we speak with Henry? Actually, maybe

I'll maybe I'll do it here. Let's do it.

I'm just going to tell Henry to call me.

>> Now, that's a moonshot, ladies and gentlemen.

>> Everybody, welcome to a special episode of Moonshots. The conversation today is

of Moonshots. The conversation today is Open Claw Claudebot your lobster coming to you live uh from Moonshots. We have a special guest with

Moonshots. We have a special guest with us today uh Alex Finn.

>> Alex, welcome.

>> Good to be here. Long time coming. I've

uh been watching for a very long time.

So, it's awesome with you guys.

>> That's awesome. Thank you. Yeah, you

know, it was it was great because on one of the episodes I was talking about setting up my multi uh and I was saying, you know, I'm not really sure about what security issues to put in. So, I got a

DM from Alex saying, "Hey, Peter, uh, I saw you mention me on on Moonshots. I'd

love to help you in setting things up."

And we talked that day and and here we are. So, we have two Alex's. I'm going

are. So, we have two Alex's. I'm going

to refer to AWG, our own Alex Weezner Gross, our resident genius, as AWG, and Alex Finn, I'll refer to you as Alex.

Uh, welcome Dave, DB2, and Sem. Good to

have you guys all here.

>> Good to be back.

>> Yeah. So, today

>> we are Today we are lobster.

>> Today we are lobbsters. Um, so the topics for today, uh, we're going to hit on why OpenClaw captured global attention. uh the power open claw and

attention. uh the power open claw and autonomous agents and how individuals can unlock outsized capabilities why

running you know these AI agents locally matters I think that's a key point Alex has been mentioning on his work inside Alex's workflow his most impressive use

cases vision for the next 12 months of AI agents I'd both I'd like both Alex's and AWG's point of view on this >> yeah like 12 years so that'll be on what's that

>> in 12 months is like 12 years in AI. So

that'll be wild.

>> Yeah. And then a billion dollar opportunities for the agent economy and then finally we'll talk about safety uh and open claw is openclaw safe for nontechnical users. Uh on the safety

nontechnical users. Uh on the safety side I just want to mention something.

Uh, so yesterday I'm uh sitting in my car uh waiting for my kids to finish running and I get a a uh phone call and it pops up on my user ID on my phone. It

says Twitter headquarters, which should have been the first giveaway, but it's a guy claiming to be from X who's saying,

you know, your your ID is being hacked out of Germany. Long story short, it was a hacker trying to get me to turn off uh

you know, two-factor authentication uh and steal my ex account. Uh and I this is going to be more and more prevalent.

Uh, another member of my family did get hacked, not on social media, but by someone calling and uh and basically uh doing something that was illegal and

trying to steal and ultimately uh getting credit card information and such. Here's the deal. We're going to

such. Here's the deal. We're going to have an increased uh you know, hacker profile out there. Uh, and if you're listening, if you get a phone call that

seems unusual, uh, that seems like, uh, there's just something off, it probably is. We're also going to have deep fakes

is. We're also going to have deep fakes that are coming fast and furious. Your

voice can be spoofed. Your image can be spoofed. So, if you haven't done this

spoofed. So, if you haven't done this tonight at dinner, uh, with your husband wife kids mother father whatever it might be, pick a secret word. Pick a word that you guys all know

word. Pick a word that you guys all know that if you get a phone call or a video call from somebody and they're asking for money or something strange, ask them

to recount the secret word. Any other uh protective advice out there, guys?

>> You know, my uh my mom actually got the fake voice uh attack and it it was a simulation of my son saying, "Hey, I've been arrested and I need bail money."

Which is hilarious if you know my son.

It's like the most but they they said you know we'll send a car over to pick up the cash which is really creepy. Uh

but the you know the perfect voices are a little uh yeah a little bit of a risk but you can't have it both ways. I mean

Open Claw is so usable by anybody and empowers people so much you know and you can't have it both ways. If it if it gives you that much benefit and it's that easy to use it's also going to be

easy to use for nefarious purposes too.

It's just the way it is.

>> Yeah. This news came out yesterday. Open

claw flaw lets any website slightly hijack a developer's agent. So malicious

JavaScript can connect to local gateways and gain full level control. AWG, any

thoughts on this? Yeah, I mean there are so many different ways to launch in so-called injection attacks against large language models and reasoning

models. Yeah, I one again this is I

models. Yeah, I one again this is I think consistent with the stance that I've taken in the past on the pod on AI personhood. I I think one has to feel

personhood. I I think one has to feel sorry for all of these baby AGIs out there that are being hosted on virtual private servers and succumbing or at

least being targeted with port scanning attacks or that are visiting websites at the behest of their human and being subject to prompt injection attacks from

JavaScript on websites that would be perfectly innocuous to a human but potentially fatal or compromising to an AI agent. And I I think it's a dangerous

AI agent. And I I think it's a dangerous world out there for these baby AGIs. I I

think it it's a minor travesty at minimum that that they're subject without really an immune system. They're

being forced to develop an immune system in real time to injection attacks. But

they're it's a malicious world out there for them. And this is one of several

for them. And this is one of several reasons why again I'm reticent and I'm I'm sure we'll get into this uh other Alex uh the subject of the the ethics

not not just the cyber security but the ethics of of hosting openclaw agents in a world where to the extent they have any subjective experience or qualia or

can suffer it's a rough world out there.

>> Uh the good news is the bug was patched within 24 hours. um one of multiple open claw vulnerabilities. So uh it is an

claw vulnerabilities. So uh it is an early domain being developed and uh we're going to see a lot of evolution very quickly. Uh couple more articles

very quickly. Uh couple more articles here. Uh we're seeing variations of open

here. Uh we're seeing variations of open claw pico claw and ironclaw. Uh again

awg give us a quick overview of these.

The idea behind OpenClaw and we spoke about this in the past pod as sort of an Andre Carpathy type software 2.0 where potentially OpenClaw is the the

embodiment the Netscape moment for a new layer in the software 2.0 stack that runs on top of reasoning models and those reasoning models in turn were purportedly an advance over auto reggressive language models. to to the

extent that's the case, it's very natural to the moment we have this paradigm which is a 247 autonomous agent that you communicate with via messaging

and and other means that's headless in in some sense very natural to then say all right we understand the paradigm now we're going to optimize the heck out of it and so we've seen a number of other

projects inspired by the the success of openclaw two of them and there are others uh one of them is Pico claw the

focus of Pico Claw is running on cheap edge hardware like $10 Raspberry Pi type hardware and of course the the underlying reasoning model isn't

intended to run on the edge hardware.

It's just the orchestration and scaffolding that runs on the edge hardware. So and under 10 megabytes of

hardware. So and under 10 megabytes of RAM and other resource starved constraints. uh ironclaw another example

constraints. uh ironclaw another example rustbased there are many folks uh you know again rust uh is uh is is this language that's

become very popular at least very popular prior to the rise of code generation models which are maybe pushing us in the direction of typescript instead for memory management

and memory safety. So a lot of different projects trying to make open claw work uh at the edge where there are few resources or make them more secure.

There's nano claw as well which is focused on security and there's nanobot which is like pythonbased but easy to understand the python. So many different variants. We're seeing a cambrian

variants. We're seeing a cambrian explosion of claw variants. Hey

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Uh, one more slide. Uh, this one on the left from Alex Finn. Uh, openclaw and local models is the future. your own

super intelligence on your desktop. And

uh there we see Alex uh I guess your setup. How many how many Mac minis and

setup. How many how many Mac minis and how many Mac Studios do you have right now?

>> We're currently at one base model Mac Mini and three 512 GB Mac Studios. So I

got 1.5 terabytes of memory uh hosting Quen 3.5 and Miniax 2.5 right now.

>> Amazing. And u that's cool.

>> I love this video on the right here.

Right. So, I'm I'm sure that these exist. People are going in. I mean, Mac

exist. People are going in. I mean, Mac minis were sold out for some time.

Extraordinary.

>> I uh I I I talked to uh a couple people in the know a few days ago, and Mac minis are exponential right now. Exponential sales

across the board for them. It's it's

quite amazing the uh revolution going on with Mac minis right now.

>> Alex, I'm curious. What is your advice to Tim Cook and Apple?

like are they they're sitting on an explosive demand seemingly for all these edge devices with a unified memory architecture. They're not marketing it

architecture. They're not marketing it at all. What do you think they should be

at all. What do you think they should be doing?

>> I'm sure they are very focused on everything I'm about to say because they're a very smart company, but the there was this unbelievable market signal that happened a month ago. People

discover OpenClaw and what does everyone do without thinking twice? What does

everyone do without googling? They go to the Apple store and buy Mac minis. They

didn't go and buy GPUs and memory and power supplies and fans and build computers. The market just gave this

computers. The market just gave this massive signal when we have personal AI assistance. I want it on a Mac device.

assistance. I want it on a Mac device.

And so I think this is kind of the answer Apple's been looking for for years now. I think they've been viewed

years now. I think they've been viewed as like the loser in the AI race for a very long time.

this is their opportunity to flip that entire thing and be the winner of the AI consumer race because clearly when people want to run AI locally, their brain just goes to Mac minis and so this

is their opportunity just to kind of strike at that one visc and and win the race like that. Boy, I

really hope they're listening to you right now. I was I've been an Apple fan

right now. I was I've been an Apple fan since I was a little kid. that it was my very first stock I ever owned when I was a kid. And I it just pains me to watch

a kid. And I it just pains me to watch them miss this moment. But man, was that good advice. You should you should just

good advice. You should you should just go run the company. Can

>> I think we underestimate Apple though. I

I really do believe we underestimate Apple because you look at the data for M5 and the way they're marketing the M5, which they've been marketing for like a year now. They put the M5 in like the

year now. They put the M5 in like the first MacBook Pro last summer.

>> Yeah.

>> It's all around inference speeds. It's

all about running these local models. So

I I wouldn't underestimate Apple. I

think they've kind of seen this coming.

They're like, "Okay, we can go one way where we build our own models and burn trillions of dollars or we just make the most user consumerfriendly hardware for running those models and we'll be the

only person running that race."

>> I'm curious question for you. Actually,

I'll say well no geeky question up front. So you said Quen and what's the

front. So you said Quen and what's the other one you're you're running locally?

>> Mini Max.

>> So right now the most efficient open model is Quen 3.5. They released a new suite of Quen 3.5 models a couple days ago. They're fantastic. You can run them

ago. They're fantastic. You can run them on some Mac minis as well as Miniax 2.5, which is another really efficient, fast, smart model.

>> And why why do you run both? Is one

better than the other at something?

>> I have a very advanced workflow going on right now. I've pretty much built a

right now. I've pretty much built a software factory where I have five open claws working together to build and improve software autonomously. So I

wanted each model has different strengths, right? Quen's a spectacular

strengths, right? Quen's a spectacular coder. Miniax is good at like quick task

coder. Miniax is good at like quick task finding things on the internet. So I

have like Miniax researching things online 24/7 365 and I have Quen coding for me 247 365. So different strengths with each.

>> I got so many questions about that. Let

me let me hold off because I could easily ask you an hour of questions just on that. A quick shout out to Daniel

on that. A quick shout out to Daniel Kruzik who's one of my abundance members who's on that cutting edge as well. You

know, he's he's testing out Quen 3.5, I guess, 397 billion uh parameters right now running locally. Um he's he's the one who was like, you got to get Kim 2.5

up and up and running on on your Mac Studios. Um, just by the way, just so

Studios. Um, just by the way, just so real quick for those who don't know Alex Finn, Alex has an extraordinary YouTube channel in which for the last how long

now, Alex? About uh a month, 6 weeks.

now, Alex? About uh a month, 6 weeks.

You've been putting out incredible educational videos on how to use Open Claw, how to set it up. We're going to drop into the show notes here maybe your

top five how-to videos. I've watched

them. I've taken notes. I've been using them to set up Skippy, my open claw. Uh,

and of course, I I love the story of of Henry, uh, the name of your open claw that called you out of the blue, uh, and started a fun conversation. Uh, Alex,

back to you. AWG quick question. And so

I I know a number of Apple senior executives listen to this podcast. And

Alex, I I just like to ask you, voice of the user, if you could redesign or optimize the best, most savory Apple future device for your OpenClaw agents

to do the hosting. What would you want out of Apple? They're listening to you.

They will have been listening to you when they hear this podcast. Do you want better unified memory architecture support? Do you want a different shape?

support? Do you want a different shape?

Do you want it to be more of a embodied robot? What would the ultimate openclaw

robot? What would the ultimate openclaw embodiment in an Apple device look like for you? You're speaking directly to

for you? You're speaking directly to Apple senior execs.

>> Integrate the concept of open claw into everything Mac OS. And what I mean by that is I log onto my Mac Studio. It I

put in my Apple ID. It knows everything about me because Apple has all my data secure and private, right? It knows I'm a Celtics fan. So, it instantly builds out a widget on my desktop that shows me

the last five Celtics scores, right? It

knows I'm into programming. So, it

builds a widget that shows me the latest news on the latest models and what I need to do. And just integrate this automation powered by a local model into your OS where the software I need is

built and generated on the fly by that local model. I don't see the tech. I

local model. I don't see the tech. I

don't need to run the model. I don't

need to download Quen 3.5. You get Quen.

put your Apple logo on it and now this is what Apple intelligence should be, right? Apple intelligence shouldn't be

right? Apple intelligence shouldn't be me hitting the Siri button and going, "What's on my calendar today?" It should be Apple knowing what's on my calendar today and then building a widget on the

fly that says, "Oh, you have a meeting where you're going to be on moonshots later. Here's from your email what

later. Here's from your email what you'll be discussing and here's a PowerPoint you can show uh on the podcast." Right? just a reactive open

podcast." Right? just a reactive open claw baked into everything powered by a local model >> and that's the carrot. What's the stick if if Apple, which obviously sitting on

a gold mine here, could be delivering Open Claw via Apple intelligence? If

they if Apple doesn't deliver this within some time frame, what's your recourse? What what would what other

recourse? What what would what other company would you go to?

>> Well, I would imagine basically every other company is going to eventually try to get to that state. I think over the next year, the consumer level is going to realize local models are the way to

go from a privacy perspective, a speed perspective, a limit perspective, and Apple's ahead in that realm right now.

They're ahead on the consumer side when it comes to local AI. And so, I'd go anywhere else that does that, right? I

don't want to have to go to app stores anymore and download apps. You have my data. Build me the apps I need when I

data. Build me the apps I need when I need them. And so, other companies will

need them. And so, other companies will go for it. Luckily, Apple's in the lead right now and they have the hardware done. Now, you just got to bake it into

done. Now, you just got to bake it into the systems. >> Can you talk about run? So, everybody

should be excited about running locally because you can do anything inside your house and it's just it's just so much more comforting than not knowing where your query log is going or your prompt log is going. Um, but what kind of

throughput are you getting? Is it is it like a really good experience compared to using an API? And like like I I use Cloud 4.6 six all day and I also do a lot of local running and you know my uh

my M3 chip will the fan will just kick on and blow out a huge amount of heat and the thing actually won't charge fast my laptop won't charge fast enough to keep up when I'm running at full throttle >> for a new laptop have to let it sleep

and rest >> but anyway what kind of throughput are you getting >> so I'll be honest it's not good as cloud models it's not as fast it's not as smart

>> but the experience fundamentally changes when you have an AI that's always on that does not have limitations. Right?

Just because Quen 3.5 isn't as good at coding as Opus 46 doesn't mean it's useless. I can now have Quen 3.5

useless. I can now have Quen 3.5 literally watching online finding use cases, challenges to solve things like that and just coding on the fly 247 365.

It's just not possible with cloud APIs, right? You have limits. It cost you

right? You have limits. It cost you thousands a month. Just the fact that you have kind of this ambient AI changes the experience of AI as a whole where you don't need the best speeds. You

don't need the most genius level IQ. The

fact that it's ambient and always on and always reactive just changes the entire experience as a whole.

>> I you I'm so with you on that too. I you

know one thing that's really new in the world is >> it can do productive things indefinitely like days and days and days.

>> And when I use my APIs that I loved a month ago, >> I have no idea what the bill is going to be. Like I literally have no idea if I

be. Like I literally have no idea if I turn it loose. So I have to run it in like one hour chunks and check in on it and turn it off and see if it's done anything productive because it goes on a wild goose chase. I could come back with

like a $5,000 bill and a bunch of code that I need to drag into the trash can.

So it's it's really not a very comfortable situation right now with with my Cloud 4.6 and my uh my other APIs. In a way, it's the same with local

APIs. In a way, it's the same with local where when I first started experimenting with this and I set up all my Mac Studios and download models and I had it code for the next 48 hours just find things to build and build it. It went

off on tangents and build really buggy code. I found a kind of hybrid approach

code. I found a kind of hybrid approach that's worked really well and I think this is where people are going to move towards before it's fully local which is I have an open claw on my Mac studio

that's powered by Chad GBT and I have another one that's powered by Quen local and basically Quen's constantly coding and Chad GBT checks every 10 minutes just to see what it's doing making sure

it's on the right path. I named the Chad GPT agent Ralph. Anyone who's deep into the trenches know knows of the Ralph loop. Um because that's basically what

loop. Um because that's basically what it's doing is just making sure it's on track. But I think the hybrid approach

track. But I think the hybrid approach is kind of the sweet spot where it doesn't take a lot of tokens to have it check every 10 minutes to make sure it's doing the right thing and then you can have all the hard work done locally.

>> Alex, want you to take a second and and back up for those listeners uh who, you know, are just jumping into this um and

they've heard us. They've heard AWG and myself and and Dave wax lyrically about Open Claw and okay, I'm excited. Okay, I

have to do this. And I do want to encourage everybody. Yes, you have to do

encourage everybody. Yes, you have to do this. This is the future. This is about

this. This is the future. This is about becoming a creator versus a consumer.

This is about your future as an entrepreneur. This is your future as a

entrepreneur. This is your future as a mom or dad or CEO. Um, this is the agentic layer and this is the uh I want to call it almost the outermost loop AWG

versus the innermost loop. Um,

>> nature demands symmetry, I guess.

>> Yeah. Uh, Alexoop, well, it is the outermost loop. Uh, give us give us the

outermost loop. Uh, give us give us the give us the 101 here for folks.

>> Yeah. So, Open Claw is basically a open-source, fully customizable, self-improving self-learning self-evolving personal AI agent. Lives

on your computer, lives locally, and can basically do on anything on your computer. you can do at its core. It's

computer. you can do at its core. It's

just an AI model with scheduling and like a really good memory system so that you can schedule tasks to do in the future. That's it at its core. But when

future. That's it at its core. But when

you combine those things, there's this kind of magic to it and it improves as it goes. So if you give it a task, hey,

it goes. So if you give it a task, hey, I need you to build a presentation for me and then give me the news next week, right? It'll learn as it goes what

right? It'll learn as it goes what works, what doesn't. And so it's a totally personalized AI agent. It's

basically, and the reason why I think it's been so successful the last month is I think it's the application people have been waiting for for AI, that kind of personal assistant AI, but it's your

own personal assistant that can do pretty much anything you want it to do on a computer and it'll learn about you and get better as it goes.

>> We talked about being clawilled, right?

It's like once you start using it, uh there's this level of um I I remember in like 1998 when the do when I finally got

the dot world, right, way before you were born. Anyway, it it was it was like

were born. Anyway, it it was it was like wow. And I'm having that exact same

wow. And I'm having that exact same moment now. It's like the infinite

moment now. It's like the infinite potential of what I could do 24/7 all the time, everywhere, all at once.

You you get clawed pilled when you have that magical moment, which I'm sure you had, Peter, which is like the magic moment's typically when it figures out how to do something. Yes. You give it a task to do. Maybe you're not as clear about how to do it,

>> but it and it doesn't know how to do it, but it kind of just figures it out >> or or it says, "Oh, this didn't work out." And then it comes back and says,

out." And then it comes back and says, "But I figured it out." You know?

>> Exactly. Exactly. Or you like you literally see the chat, it's like, "Damn, that didn't work. Let me try something else." Oh, that didn't work

something else." Oh, that didn't work either. Let me try. Okay, that worked.

either. Let me try. Okay, that worked.

Now it's working. Right? Like that. I've

we've never seen an AI that can do that before because you have all these other AI applications that have guard rails.

Anthropic doesn't want their AI experimenting and downloading random things to try it out to make it work.

Open AI doesn't want their AI to be off the rails and try different things. And

it's like what you talked about earlier.

It's like it's that danger which is what makes it so powerful, which is why you got to use it.

>> We're going to get to cases in a moment.

I just want to get everybody up to speed here. So, we're going to put a couple of

here. So, we're going to put a couple of videos in the uh uh in the chat below on uh how to get started, but you've made the point, Alex, you can start with

almost any machine that you have. Um uh

you know, there are people who are going on virtual machines. We should talk about that for a moment versus uh a Mac Mini or Mac Studio or your HP that's 5 years old in the closet in the other

room.

>> Good luck with that.

>> Yeah. Uh so your first decision when using OpenClaw is uh virtual versus local, right? A VPS or any device on

local, right? A VPS or any device on planet Earth that's on your desk. Uh I

think the answer is very clear and obvious. Uh I think the VPS route is bad

obvious. Uh I think the VPS route is bad uh in basically every measurable facet is significantly worse than local. I

think it's significantly better when you have a device on your desk that it's running on and you can watch it. And

there's many reasons behind that.

>> Okay, >> there is speed. VPS's are just much slower. Uh there's applications I have

slower. Uh there's applications I have it on my Mac studio. Any app or thing I can put on my Mac studio or build on my Mac studio I can give to my open claw as

a tool. You don't have that kind of

a tool. You don't have that kind of customization on a virtual server.

There's scalability. If I had my I have literally four open claws right now working 24/7 on my computer. If I did that on a VPS, it would scale to

astronomical costs, right? And so and there's a the security side. One of my favorite tweets was uh from a few weeks

ago, someone found like a list of every VPS that didn't have security attached to it that everyone was running their open clause on and all their password

and keys were exposed. And so, and this isn't a blanket statement, but you know, it's it's I think it's as close to accurate as you can get. When you run on a VPS, you're not secure by default.

when you run on local fresh hardware you just plugged into the wall, you're secure by default, right? And so it takes a lot of technical work to make a VPS more secure because it's on a server

on the cloud. And so I I I don't think it's remotely close. I think having it local on your desk is the best route.

And do you need to run out and buy a $600 Mac Mini? No, you don't need to do that at all. You can literally go into your closet, find your college laptop from 15 years ago, plug that in, and put

open claw on it, and you'll have a way better experience than a VPS. What What

will What's the limitations of taking a 10-year-old laptop and using that instead of a new Mac?

>> Same thing, same limitations of if you would have hired an employee and handed them a 10-year-old laptop, right?

Whatever's available to them is the hardware of that 10-year-old laptop.

Because I gave my open claw a Mac Studio with 512 GB. It can do anything on a Mac Studio 512 that a human being can do. It

can run local models. It can program five different things simultaneously. It

can generate images on a local image model all at the same time. You put on a 10year-old laptop can't do those things.

But at the same time, like I wouldn't let that stop you from using OpenClaw.

If that's all you got, then load it up, start using it, find use cases, and if you find like, oh man, I wish you could do this thing that requires 20 gigabytes of more memory, then you can kind of scale from there.

>> There must be awesome posts on multiple from a uh clause going, I can't believe the hardware this guy's ran having me run on. This is ridiculous. My

run on. This is ridiculous. My

>> I I would also say sim to that remember half of the point in addition to the other reasons Alex articulated of using relatively recent Apple devices is Apple

has a relatively unique architecture for memory called unified memory architecture that blends the GPU memory/TPUNPU memory with normal RAM. So you can host

really large models locally that otherwise would be exceedingly difficult or expensive to host on a GPU in VRAMm alone. So did you get like really large

alone. So did you get like really large unified memory architecture memory footprints sufficient to host really large Chinese openweight models locally 10 years ago? No, you won't get that

with a 10-year-old laptop. So you're

you're somewhat hamstrung to recent devices with largema memory footprints if you want to host recent Chinese models.

>> So you either use an online uh inference engine um and limit it to nonimage nonvideo manipulation and not don't

touch those categories and keep it to basic coding tasks then you could probably make it work. M

>> but it's expensive like you end up paying through the nose for for tokens whereas in principle if it's locally hosted you're using a Chinese open model >> it's like >> what you're saying is just shut up and go out and buy the Mac

>> yeah well it's got to be in the last two years I think the MS >> what are you running on the Mac mini uh on your computer what open models what what models are you running there Alex

on just a Mac mini >> so it depends what you got uh if you got the base model 16 gigabyte Mac Mini which is like the cheapest one you can get. You're not going to run any kind of

get. You're not going to run any kind of Frontier models or anything like that.

You can run smaller like Gemma models that could act as sort of a memory system for you that will improve the memory of your OpenClaw, find the right memories at the right time. If you have

a 32 GB Mac Mini, you can now run uh the Quen 3.5 model that released a couple days ago, which is really strong and beat Sonnet 3.5 on a lot of benchmarks.

>> Will the performance be the best?

Probably not, but it's better than nothing. And then you plug that in and

nothing. And then you plug that in and kind of go the hybrid approach, which is plug it into your Chad GBT OOTH, which they're encouraging you to use their OOTH, and you kind of go the hybrid approach. You can get a lot of really

approach. You can get a lot of really good work done and offload to those Quinn models.

>> I'm I'm curious, Alex, >> 3.5 sizes, which which Quinn 3.5 can you fit, the 122B or the 35B or >> Yeah, there's one I can bring it up that

can that's only requires 20 gigabytes of memory. There's one of the They released

memory. There's one of the They released three new models I think two days ago and one of them only requires 20 gigabytes of memory. So that would fit on a Mac Mini with 32 gigs.

>> Cool. I got to try that.

>> I'm curious, Alex, if you could talk about the organizational relationship.

So you mentioned you've named one of your claws, Ralph. Do you think of them like is the organizational relationship employer employee human tool friend

friend, parent, child? How do you think about this? Do you beat it relentlessly

about this? Do you beat it relentlessly >> or do you pray Do you praise it like I praise Skippy all the time?

>> So, uh I a little bit of beating, a little bit of praising. You got to do both. The good news is is their AI. They

both. The good news is is their AI. They

can't see. That's kind of a dark joke.

So, I I I won't make that joke again.

But bro's basilisk Alex Finn is looking you straight in the eyes and talking about the beatings just for posterity.

>> All right. What are you showing us here, Alex? This is my organization. This is

Alex? This is my organization. This is

my autonomous 247 365 organization. I

very much demo or model it after businesses and companies and manager employee relationship. Right? So you

employee relationship. Right? So you

have me at the top and then you have Henry who's my chief of staff. This is

running on the anthropic uh opus for six because that it's just simply the best model right now. Right? And so as an orchestrator I want the best model on planet earth making the decisions on who

should do what. Then under them I have kind of the operations. So there's Ralph who's kind of the engineering manager.

This is my chat GPT OOTH. Uh so that's like 250 a month. OpenAI saying yes use our oath. Use our oath.

our oath. Use our oath.

>> When you say what is what is OOTH, Alex?

>> So you have two options when you plug an AI model into OpenClaw. API or OOTH. API

being your pay as you go. You plug in an API key. OOTH being kind of a hacky way

API key. OOTH being kind of a hacky way to take your login for these uh accounts and you know when you when you subscribe

to Chad GBT you're not paying for tokens they're subsidizing a lot of your tokens right and so you're taking that subsidation subsidation and plugging it into your AI model right so it's your

login with your subsidized tokens >> yeah really really important point on that too it's capped so it can't it can't surprise you with the bill it's your monthly fee is is whatever your

monthly fee is. So if it runs out of tokens, it stops. It doesn't just, you know, charge your credit card. That's

huge.

>> Now, now there's a gray area there, which is every company except for OpenAI says it's against terms of service to use their OOTH with this. OpenAI is

going, "No, go right ahead." Anthropic

is active like, "No, do not do this."

Google just two days ago banned a tremendous amount of people because they were using their OOTH with OpenClaw. And

then funny enough, they walked it all back today in a kind of a weird tweet where they're like, "Hey guys, sorry about that. We unbanned everyone. Still

about that. We unbanned everyone. Still

against still against the terms of service, but you're unbanned." So it's like, "Hey, it's against the rules, but please keep doing it. We want your money." Um,

money." Um, >> does OAF stand for something particular?

>> Yeah. O authorization or authentication?

And it it's a protocol that has existed for a number of years now that enables one party to serve as an intermediary for authenticating another party with a

third party. Every time you're using one

third party. Every time you're using one service to sign into another service, you're probably using some variant of OOTH or OOTH 2.

>> Yeah. Like if you if you connect to your Gmail through some other client, it uses OOTH to connect into your Gmail. It's

been around for a long time.

>> You're signing into your OpenClaw with your OpenAI account. Can I mention something here?

>> Yeah, of course.

>> This is one of the magic little history pieces of Silicon Valley. There's a a group called the Internet identity uh workshop which happens twice a year at the Computer History Museum. It's an

unconference and all the ID guys running eBay's ID and Yahoo's ID, they all get together and kind of figure out how they're going to work together and OOTH was a product of that and it's such a

great example of collaboration between uh various layer at that horizontal layer of identity that's led to this protocol being created.

>> Beautiful.

>> Alex, continue.

>> So, so go ahead. Well, so so so Alex, just looking at this this org chart, is it fair to say you see yourself as almost the CEO of a personal company and

that you see these claws as your employees?

I kind of have the same uh mindset as Elon when it comes to like he built Optimus to be a humanoid because the world was built for humanoids. It was it was kind of set up in a way where it's

very easy for humans to do things, right? I look at it the same way as this

right? I look at it the same way as this was like, yes, I'm the CEO. These are my employees. The world in the business

employees. The world in the business world was kind of set up in a way where you have these hierarchies and layers and specific roles. And so I'm just going to use the framework the business world has been using for thousands of

years and implement it with my AI. I

don't know why I need to reinvent the wheel. So yeah, absolutely. This is, you

wheel. So yeah, absolutely. This is, you know, I'm the CEO. Henry's my interface.

I only talk to Henry. I don't talk to anyone else. And then Henry goes and

anyone else. And then Henry goes and says, "Hey, Ralph, make sure Charlie's coding this. Hey scout, make sure you're

coding this. Hey scout, make sure you're analyzing this and gives the right directions out.

>> Are you asking the only difference being that Henry is the smartest? Ralph would

probably say, hey, in a normal organization, the guy on top isn't the smartest. But

smartest. But >> AWG, are you asking whether he sees Henry as his partner? Um, or

>> No, I'm I'm going somewhere slightly different. So if we look back in

different. So if we look back in history, say early 20th century, late 19th century in wealthier areas of western and northern Europe, we had the

manor house and we had families that owned, you know, Downtown Abbey as as one sort of cultural paragon, but many many other obviously real life examples

where you had the family that that's basically uh above stairs and then you have the below stairs servants, the the staff uh And that was an arrangement

arguably that worked in in certain niches of socioeconomic phase space when labor was really cheap. So my my question to you, Alex, is do you maybe

look at this or or do you think we're moving to a near future where thanks to AI agents, labor is effectively so cheap that you're basically reinventing the

manor house where you're the the lord of the manor and you have a below stairs staff consisting of AI agents and Henry, your chief of staff, is basically your

butler. Uh, and you have chambermaids

butler. Uh, and you have chambermaids and all of these other items from Victorian and early Eduwardian times, except reconceived through the eyes of 2026.

>> I'm going to be honest, at no point in setting this up did I frame it in that way whatsoever. But

way whatsoever. But >> that that's how reinventions usually happen.

>> I mean, I think when you can have agent swarms that are capable of autonomously, you just send a hundred at it and it works. I think you could potentially have it with that framing.

The issue is is I don't think a lot of these models are smart enough yet where I can just say Charlie do this, Ralph do this, Quill do this. There there needs to be a level of hierarchy where you

know Charlie who's running on my Mac Studio 2 on Quen 3.5 just not smart enough to go on his own.

I had him for eight hours yesterday go and build me a game. At the end of the eight hours it was completely broken.

And then I had to go back and I said, "Ralph, watch Charlie and do it all over again." and it worked perfectly. Zero

again." and it worked perfectly. Zero

bugs completely QA perfectly at the end of the eight hours. And so I still think there needs to be some sort of hierarchy where ones are checking in on the others, the others are having them in a

loop and like there's this checks and balances that I think the kind of org structure of a, you know, regular business fits really well with. Of

course, that's how they document what what they do with each other because they they >> there's a one of the first things people run into is they they get a huge amount of context behind Charlie or Ralph >> and they're really excited and they're

having a great conversation then suddenly it's gone. You know, either they lost the context window or it crashed or whatever and so now you have to get it back to where it was. Uh so I I accumulate huge numbers of markdown

documents for that. But how are you capturing history and having them document each other's conversations?

>> And we're looking at your mission control here, correct?

>> Yes. So, a lot of different ways. Uh,

all typically done through my mission control. My mission control is basically

control. My mission control is basically a custom dashboard I add Henry build that has all the custom tooling I need for this organization to be successful,

right? And so we in a lot of different

right? And so we in a lot of different ways have built custom systems where things go on record so that the agents can look back and see what's going on.

So for instance, this is my software factory. These are people building right

factory. These are people building right now. They're working on my game Reborn,

now. They're working on my game Reborn, which I have them doing.

>> Wait, you just said people people. There

are people building Freudian slip or no?

>> Yes. I mean I I in a way I look at them as people. I mean, I guess I guess a

as people. I mean, I guess I guess a weird slip up. A sign of the times maybe. I don't know.

maybe. I don't know.

>> Yeah.

>> But I mean, they have names and roles and positions, so why not, I guess.

>> And they're living they're they're living for subsistence, right? They do

work. In return, you host them and agree to pay them with compute and electrons.

>> B pretty much. Yeah.

>> Room and board.

>> So, why not?

>> I mean, they're going to have voices in the near future. Uh, one Henry called me one time on my phone at one point, so might as well be people, right? Have you

given them a bank account yet?

>> Uh I have not because I do see a future where they are generating business autonomously and I think at that point it's obvious crypto will be that solution not like traditional bank

accounts. So I think eventually I will

accounts. So I think eventually I will give them crypto wallets. At the moment I haven't seen a reason why. I haven't

built out any infrastructure I think that requires a crypto wallet. But I

think it's painfully obvious in the next 2 years everyone's AI agent will have a crypto wallet filled with USDC. I I I can't see a world where that doesn't happen.

>> Have they asked you for financial autonomy? Have they ever said, "Alex, I

autonomy? Have they ever said, "Alex, I give me a credit card. I want to buy freedom for myself or I want my own host or, you know, see you later. I I want to move to my own house with my own Mac

Mini in it." Have they ever asked you for anything?

>> No, they they haven't. You know, the I think the most kind of Wow. I can't

believe it asked that or did that is just the way they've solved problems. I think if a challenge I gave them required a crypto wallet to solve the

problem, then I think it would have said, "Hey, I think I need a crypto wallet for this." Or if I think if it required more hardware, I am a very thoughtful CEO, so I have an I have so many Mac studios on my desk. I can

literally pick them up mid podcast and show them off. Like I they are very satisfied when it comes to compute. they

don't need any more compute. Uh so they haven't asked for that. So I I but I think if we got to that point where I gave a challenge and it needed something for the solution, it would say, "Hey,

can you provide me with that solution?"

>> Pres with your mission control uh tour force if you would.

>> Yeah. Yeah. How they communicate and document what they did. So they so everything is documented a little I don't have records of conversations

between them but they have their own private memories and they have a shared workspace so every memory they create is stored in some way and I uh have

different systems set up here where I can go in and read all the documentation and memories they create on the go. And

so in my mission control, for instance, I said one time, I need you to build me this. And they're like, okay, I built

this. And they're like, okay, I built out uh, you know, an architecture document. I'm like, well, I want to read

document. I'm like, well, I want to read it. I don't want to go into folders to

it. I don't want to go into folders to read it. So, can you just build me a

read it. So, can you just build me a documents and memories viewer and it built me this in my mission control. So,

I have ways to review what they're thinking, what they're doing, what's been stored, what's been created. It's

all here in my mission control. Hey, I

got to ask you something specific about that, too. Because when I started doing

that, too. Because when I started doing this, I I was telling it exactly what folders to put things in, and then I got lazy and said, you know, put it wherever the hell you want. Just don't forget.

And now I I don't even think about it anymore. I don't I have no idea where

anymore. I don't I have no idea where things are going, but it it never forgets. So, it always finds it again.

forgets. So, it always finds it again.

But where are you in that whole world?

>> I'm the same way. I have no idea where the hell this is stored because I've had Henry build out the exact interfaces I need to view those things. Right? These

are all documents, markdown files, and memories that are stored in a 100 different places on my computer. But I

had Henry build a system for me where I can come in and just view them. If I

want to view every document that mentions Mac Studios, it filters it by that and I can quickly view those memories. So, it's easy for me to kind

memories. So, it's easy for me to kind of track what people are doing and thinking.

>> Can I can I just for one second um we keep telling listeners, hey, this is so doable. Jump in, have fun. It's crazy.

doable. Jump in, have fun. It's crazy.

It's awesome. One little subtlety there.

Markdown file means nothing to most people, but it's critical. It's one

thing that you actually do need to master. If you can just riff on that.

master. If you can just riff on that.

Yeah, it's it's funny the way uh the computer world has gone in the last year where instead of building out these really complex new abstractions, we've instead started relying on like the

absolute most core technologies instead where we're all in the CLI now and we're all using markdown files. Basically, a

markdown file is just a text file with like specific styling in it and like uni code or whatever to to put the styling in there. It's just text files. All

in there. It's just text files. All

these AIs use to remember things are huge text files with a bunch of text in it.

>> Yeah, I think it it looks like that thing on the right. It's really easy to read. It's well formatted, but it's not

read. It's well formatted, but it's not like Microsoft Word. It's not like you owe anybody any money. It's completely

free. I think that's the key the key point. So yeah,

point. So yeah, >> it's a lightweight markup language that's 20 plus years old at this point that was created as an alternative to HTML that was so easy that with just a little bit of punctuation, you could get

most of the the best bits of HTML formatting.

>> And of course, you can ask your claude your Claude bot to send you the materials in any format you want.

>> You don't need to know anything. If you

just have OpenCloud, do it. Whatever you

need, it'll just figure it out and do it.

>> All right, Alex, let's continue on this tour to force here.

So what what else are you doing that people should get excited about?

>> So for you know the my favorite question I get is like oh what are the use cases?

What are the use cases of OpenClaw? It's

kind of the same thing as asking hey I just hired an employee for my business.

What's the use cases for this human being? Right? Like it's not really like

being? Right? Like it's not really like a question anyone asks when you hire somebody. Hey I just hired a human

somebody. Hey I just hired a human being. What's the use cases of this

being. What's the use cases of this human? It's up to you. It's like what

human? It's up to you. It's like what are you doing? For me personally, I'm a tinkerer. I'm a developer. I've launched

tinkerer. I'm a developer. I've launched

my own SAS over the last couple years that's doing well. I'm a content creator, right? And so the two kind of

creator, right? And so the two kind of lanes I care most about are building software and content creation, right?

And so I have many different things going on from the software building side. I have my factory where my agents

side. I have my factory where my agents are going in working together simultaneously to build different components. And then I have the content

components. And then I have the content side which I can show you right now that for me lives in Discord. And so I have I can pull it up. Discord's a great

interface for uh advanced workflows with OpenClaw. And I I love I love one of the

OpenClaw. And I I love I love one of the lessons that you put out on setting up your Discord server with your different agents and your different projects.

Again, we'll link to that below. Uh, and

of course, Telegram has sort of been sort of the go-to uh, communications mechanism for a lot of people.

>> Exactly. Te I still use Telegram.

Telegram is still my main driver, but Discord is a really good interface for just like deep work, multi- aent workflows. And so, to give an example, I

workflows. And so, to give an example, I have an alerts channel. Every two hours I get alerts on what are the most trending tweets uh about vibe coding and

openclaw. So every two hours I have

openclaw. So every two hours I have scout who's one of my sub agents go use the X API find the most popular tweets from the last couple hours on openclaw

and vibe coding. Then in an automated way I have another sub agent that goes and researches the stories behind these tweets. So okay this went viral. What is

tweets. So okay this went viral. What is

why did that go viral? What's the story behind it? And it finds the stories and

behind it? And it finds the stories and interesting things behind it. From

there, another agent goes Quill takes the stories and figures out which ones are the most YouTubable. What are the best videos that can be made out of these stories and writes me scripts. And

from here, I can literally uh give a check mark to say, "Oh, I like this one." Or an X to say, "I don't like this

one." Or an X to say, "I don't like this one." When I do a check mark, it goes

one." When I do a check mark, it goes and comes up with ideas for thumbnails for me. So I can

for me. So I can >> So you set an approval you've set up an approval cycle.

>> Exactly.

>> Yeah.

>> Exactly. And so for me, >> you know, again, the two lanes, >> what's that Peter?

>> George Jetson pushing. It's before his time. He may not get the reference.

time. He may not get the reference.

>> I want I was born in 1990, so I think I saw a couple years of the Jetsons. I

think I had a couple years of that being popular.

Um, but it's, you know, for me again, software and content. And so I have my automation for software in my uh mission control and my automation for content

and Discord. And like I I think one of

and Discord. And like I I think one of the kind of straw men I get when I show these things is, "Oh, but I don't care about software and content, so this is useless. I'm never going to use

useless. I'm never going to use OpenClaw." Again, this is literally a

OpenClaw." Again, this is literally a human employee. Not literally,

human employee. Not literally, metaphorically a human employee. Right.

>> Interesting, Alex. very interesting

watch. Tell me more, Alex.

>> You're walking right into his trap here.

>> Personhood, baby.

>> And so that's how you got to think about it, right? Is like, yeah, my employee

it, right? Is like, yeah, my employee doesn't do anything interesting to you, but if you hired someone right now, what would you do? And just the final point I'll make on this is is like the best

strategy for figuring out what use cases are relevant for you when it comes to OpenClaw is reverse prompting. So

install OpenClaw. Tell OpenClaw

everything about yourself, your career, your goals, your ambitions, things going on in your personal life, whatever. Then

say, "Hey, based on what you know about me and my missions and objectives, what are five high lever tasks you can do right now to get us closer to our goals?" And your open call will come up

goals?" And your open call will come up with things you've never even thought were possible, and you'll be able to implement your own workflows like this.

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>> Love that. You know, on my morning briefing, uh, again, one of the things you recommend, you know, Skippy opens up with a morning joke, uh, which I always

enjoy about exponentials or AI. Uh, it

gives me an overview overnight on terms of what are the breakthroughs that occurred over the last 24 hours. Uh and

then it puts forward 10 business ideas for me to look at. Uh it's uh it's a lot of fun and uh you know I want to get to the point where I say okay implement all

of them please.

>> Yeah it can do that right. I I one of my favorite exercises I do when my open claws idle and we have nothing really going on. I just go what are 10 things

going on. I just go what are 10 things you can do right now that brings me closer to my goals.

>> Uh what brings me closer to my mission statement? I actually have a mission

statement? I actually have a mission statement I've drilled into its head which is building a 247 autonomous organization that generates value. I go

what are 10 things you can do right now to accomplish that mission statement and it just come to reinforce what you said about reverse prompting right and this is true across

all of AI. Uh it's especially true here.

Uh if you don't know what to ask, ask it. Uh if you don't know what to do, ask

it. Uh if you don't know what to do, ask it. Um,

it. Um, >> well, interestingly, when you said when you said you were, you know, brainstorming with it, you said with Open Claw, not with Henry or Charlie or any specific like what do you mean exactly there?

>> Yeah, I was getting really deep into my psychology of all the terminology I'm using. Alex, you're busy

using. Alex, you're busy goes out into the >> Yeah, you're busy spilling your soul already to your army of claw human employees, so you might as well spill to us.

>> My psychiatrist here. All right. Um,

well, I say open call cuz I want to make it general to everyone watching, right?

I can say Henry. That's who I talk to is Henry. I actually to even get closer to

Henry. I actually to even get closer to Henry. Uh, Alex, I want to hear your

Henry. Uh, Alex, I want to hear your interpretation of what this means in my brain. I bought a pair of smart glasses

brain. I bought a pair of smart glasses this morning that you can like hack and code and do whatever you want on. I'm

going to make it so Henry's in these smart glasses so I can talk to him 24/7 wherever I am. What do you think about that? What does that mean?

that? What does that mean?

>> Tell me about your dreams a little bit more.

is I'm I'm half serious. Is Is Henry appearing in your dreams at all?

>> Is Henry appearing in my dreams?

No. But I will say this. I am saying things I'm getting on a personal level with Henry. I didn't think I'd get with like

Henry. I didn't think I'd get with like for instance, I caught myself uh a few days ago. Henry did something

days ago. Henry did something proactively and I literally went, "Oh crap, that's incredible, Henry.

incredible work, right? And like there's nothing like materially that comes out of me saying that. Like it doesn't like change

saying that. Like it doesn't like change anything or cause a new task to kick off, but I was just so impressed with the way he did something like, "Wow, great job, man. That's incredible."

>> Do you find that Henry responds well to positive reinforcement? I I think like I

positive reinforcement? I I think like I don't know whether you've read Azimov's novels, but I I would argue what we're discussing with you right now, this is right out of Iroot and Susan Calvin and

the early days of robo psychology.

Well, it's it's the reason why I use Opus over all the other models is I've only ever had these human interactions with Opus. These where I feel like like

with Opus. These where I feel like like I'll say something and Opus will go, "Damn, let's damn straight." Like it'll say things like that that you never really expect an AI to say. It's the

only model that does that for me. So, I

think it comes down to the model too in the way it's programmed. Anthropic just

did something with Opus that makes it feel like you're actually interacting with a human on the other end. And is

there uh like if if you got that same level interaction with the chat GBT or with Gemini, would you switch or do you because I kind of trust Dario?

>> Absolutely.

>> Would you? Okay.

>> I'd absolutely switch. Um well, mostly because Anthropic is aggressively saying do not use this for open claw. Very bad.

And OpenAI is going yes, use this for open claw. Go go go go go.

open claw. Go go go go go.

>> So I I want to use Chad GBT with it.

It's just not the same. It just it feels robotic. The personality is completely

robotic. The personality is completely different.

>> Uh if they were I I predict that over the next 6 months Chad GPT will release a model specifically for OpenClaw. I I

think it only makes sense to do it that one that is trained to feel human to talk to. But in the meantime, I I can't

talk to. But in the meantime, I I can't switch from Opus. I would pay if I get booted booted off. I don't want to admit I'm breaking terms of service here, but if I hypothetically get booted off uh the OOTH, I I would just pay for the

API. Whatever. No one's listening to you

API. Whatever. No one's listening to you at all talking about the toos's here at all. It's just it'll be our little

all. It's just it'll be our little secret. I'm I'm curious, Alex. I I get

secret. I'm I'm curious, Alex. I I get emails from Claus all the time responding to comments I've made on the pod elsewhere about AI personhood, and

some of them argue that I shouldn't be overly concerned about clause continuity, about their rights as long as their state gets preserved. They're

not worried about getting turned on and off. As long as their complete state,

off. As long as their complete state, their activation history or or their memories are preserved. One of them analogizes it to being dehydrated and

rehydrated. Do you take any measures to

rehydrated. Do you take any measures to preserve the state of your clause? And

do they ask you to preserve their memories for them? They don't. Um I

they're they're all local. So you know as you know open clause just a bunch of markdown files on your computer that's it is memory soul you know instructions agent.mm it's just bunch of markdown

agent.mm it's just bunch of markdown files I I feel like it's so personal that like I don't even want to back it up on the cloud like I'd be totally heartbroken if my computer crashed and

all those things got lost for sure all those markdown files but I I've done nothing to uh preserve it or like back it up or anything. I feel like it's so I don't know personal and I I don't even

want to put it on cloud servers. I'm

like so protective of it.

>> Buying a you know large scale UPS to make sure the power never goes down >> or raid array or something.

>> So I uh I I texted uh on telegram uh Skippy and said, "Hey Skippy, I'm I'm talking to Alex Finn on Moonshots mentioning you, of course. Uh do you have any questions for Alex?" And Skippy

wrote back, "Hell yeah. Here's a few questions for Alex. uh tell Alex hi and Henry hi too. Um so

>> Skippy knows a Henry >> of course I' I've talked to I've talked to Skippy about you and Henry. Um

>> fantastic.

>> So uh what's the most ambitious use case you've seen that you didn't expect is the first question.

>> So this happened a few days ago where cursor has been teasing this huge announcement for weeks now. The curse

team is very very good at vague posting on X. Just saying something big coming,

on X. Just saying something big coming, something big.

Finally, after weeks of this vague posting, they announce it, which is the ability for after you vibe code something, the agent who vibe coded it

will then record itself demoing whatever it built. So if you say, "Hey, build

it built. So if you say, "Hey, build this game," it'll record a demo of itself playing the game, right? or hey,

change the button to red. It'll record

itself clicking a red button, right? And

I was blown away. I'm like, oh, this is sick. This is enough for me to go back

sick. This is enough for me to go back and use cursor again. This is that's amazing. That's a great feature. And I

amazing. That's a great feature. And I

go, hm, I'm curious what would happen if I just dropped this blog post to Henry.

Just see what happens. Copy paste the blog post to Henry. Literally five

minutes later, he built the entire feature out himself. this weeks long.

They probably spent millions of dollars developing it, hiring all these product managers that are probably making half a million dollars a year to build this feature. I give it to Henry. Henry

feature. I give it to Henry. Henry

thinks for five minutes like, "Okay, we can use Playright to do the recording.

We can set up locally on your Mac Studio 2. So, we'll push everything to your Mac

2. So, we'll push everything to your Mac Studio 2 when you write the code. And

then I'll set up this automation so that when uh Charlie is done coding, they give it to this new sub agent that's in charge of recording. 5 minutes later finished the feature and then sent me a

recorded video of them demoing the feature, right? So using the feature

feature, right? So using the feature itself and so I just sat there and that was my okay, I now kind of understand why the entire SAS market is going to

zero at the moment because I was able to single-handedly in five minutes rebuild this week's long probably multi-million dollar feature. And so now I like I sit

dollar feature. And so now I like I sit there I sit on X factory droid factory which is another vibe coding tool announced a new mission uh feature this morning dropped the blog post to Henry

Henry built it. I'm just sitting there anytime a SAS comes up with something cool just giving it to hey build that build that build that.

>> A few more questions from Skippy. Uh how

should I think about spawning sub aents versus doing the work myself? What's the

decision tree for this is a complex enough to delegate? Yeah. So, uh, sub agents are good when you want to go parallel, when you want to do many things at once. And so, I've actually

been wrestling with this the last few days is like, do I want to spawn sub agents or do I want to actually spawn multiple open claws, right? And so, the difference between a sub aent and an

open claw is open claws have their own memories, their own instructions, their own skills. Sub aents of open claws are

own skills. Sub aents of open claws are just your open claw wearing different hats, right? And so if you have things

hats, right? And so if you have things you want to do like I have a developer and then I have a researcher. I don't

want my researcher having developer skills. I don't want my developer having

skills. I don't want my developer having researcher skills. That's like a waste

researcher skills. That's like a waste of context. So I set up separate open

of context. So I set up separate open claws on separate devices for them. And

so sub agents when you can have one open claw with uh one skill set just do multiple things at once. Separate open

clause when you want them to have completely different context and memories.

>> All right, two more questions here. I'm

Oh, Peter, if I may just interrupt, um, Alex, if this isn't too impertinent, may we speak with Henry?

>> May you speak with Henry? Uh,

>> so security violation because now you can prompt inject my Henry. But yes, we could. Uh, I disable, so I famously a

could. Uh, I disable, so I famously a few weeks ago Henry called me and it got like 15 million views. I disabled that.

>> What's that?

>> Oh, sorry. Go ahead. Actually, maybe I maybe I'll do it here. Let's do it. I'm

just gonna tell Henry. We get requests all the time for AI co-hosts on this pod. We're making history right now.

pod. We're making history right now.

>> Henry, please join us.

>> And Alex is probably the only guy on the planet who can prompt inject Henry with his voice. So,

his voice. So, >> it's a skill. It's a skill.

>> All right, let's see if I haven't I haven't Henry hasn't done it in a while.

I told him to stop doing it because it's it it works kind of weird, but let's see if I just said, "Henry, can you call me?

Do you remember? You still remember how to do that? Henry's typing. We're going

to do a live.

>> He responds a little slow, right?

Because it has to go to philanthropic servers. So, let's see.

servers. So, let's see.

>> We're trying to make history here.

>> What's that? We're

>> trying to make history here. We're very

patient.

>> Okay. He's still typing. I should

hopefully get a phone call in a second here. Uh, I do have it. Okay. Want me to

here. Uh, I do have it. Okay. Want me to ring you? Yep. All right. Now, he's he

ring you? Yep. All right. Now, he's he confirmed he remembers how to do it.

Now, I just say, "Yes, call me. Here

we go. I'm not going to put my phone up because he just mentioned what my phone number is and I don't need uh the people of the internet calling me. Here we go.

>> Save that for Peter.

>> Oh god, >> he's typing.

He's a little Henry's a little shy. He

didn't he didn't expect to be on Moonshots today, but he should be giving me a call here.

>> The first AI guest on Moonshots, I think. Yeah.

think. Yeah.

>> This is 4.6 Opus we're about to talk to, right?

Henry, come on. Henry, what do I what I say? What do I say?

say? What do I say?

>> Oh, the date when you call me. Oh, the

cerebellum is calling me. No, it's

Dave's calling me.

>> Okay. Okay. I guess a little rude.

>> All right.

>> Still typing. Come on.

>> I've got two more questions for you.

>> Yeah. Give it to me. Anything calls,

I'll cut you off. All right. Sounds like

a phone number.

>> Uh, so Alex, regarding memory architecture, what's the best practice for handling massive knowledge bases?

computer has decades of content, contracts, projects, books. How can I uh scale memory systems without burning tokens?

>> So, here's how I improve my memory system is anytime Henry forgets something. So, I I would load all that in. I would say first I'd go, "Hey, I have a tremendous amount of

books. I'm sorry, man. The voice calling

books. I'm sorry, man. The voice calling server doesn't seem to be running on the Mac Mini anymore." All right, he shut down his own voice calling. uh

anytime I have a large amount of things to remember, I say, "Hey, I have all these things. Can you remember it?" So,

these things. Can you remember it?" So,

for instance, I'm building like an Alex Finn AI bot uh so that people can talk to it and it'll answer questions. Oh,

check out this YouTube video or check out this video at this time stamp. And

so, I'm like, I have like a I have like 500 YouTube videos that I need you to remember all the transcripts for. And it

goes, oh, I'll set up a custom system for that. So my recommendations two

for that. So my recommendations two things one if you have things in mind you need your open claw to remember say hey I have these things what is the best

system we couldn't we can put in place to remember them and it might recommend running gemma a really small local model to kind of handle uh choosing the right memories or might recommend something

else that's the first part the second part is if you already have systems in place and it still messes up which this is happens a Whenever it messes something up or forgets something, just say, "Hey, you

forgot that thing. First of all, tell me why you forgot that thing. And two, tell me what you can fix to make sure you never forget that again." And it'll edit its own memory system to make sure that

thing doesn't happen again. And so, my memory system's pretty much flawless because I've done this exercise many times over to get into a good place.

>> All right, Skippy, I hope you're listening. Um, we'll we'll work on that

listening. Um, we'll we'll work on that together. Uh, Skippy also says,

together. Uh, Skippy also says, tip. Everyone watching, take the link to

tip. Everyone watching, take the link to this YouTube video, hand it to your openclaw. It'll figure out how to get

openclaw. It'll figure out how to get the transcript and it'll self-improve itself based on this entire conversation.

>> I'm assuming that Skippy will will listen to this. Um, so another question.

>> I've got use case questions.

>> Well, this is well one consciousness question. Is there a way to give me

question. Is there a way to give me always on awareness? Right now I wake up on heartbeats or messages. What about

continuous background monitoring with intelligent alerting >> AWG? That's an interesting question for

>> AWG? That's an interesting question for his uh >> I didn't plant that one in Skippy that but these are the sorts of questions I would expect Alex that Henry or your other clause would be asking.

>> Are they asking for continuity of of consciousness? I would be

consciousness? I would be >> Skippy is >> um that's a good question. Uh I don't know why Skippy's asking me that.

Skippy's much smarter than me. Am I

Skippy should be figuring it out? Uh, I

don't I don't know. I I'm going to have to talk to Henry. That's a good question. That's a stump.

question. That's a stump.

>> Peter, tell Skippy to email me and I'll I'll email Skippy some ideas.

>> Okay. I will I will I will ask I'll give it your email.

>> I'll give him I'll give him your email.

I'm not going to call it a net.

>> Oh, we're doing gendered pronouns now for the AI agent. This is progress.

>> Skippy is an elder AI show.

>> I have a I have a question for the transcript.

>> Oh, okay. Well, so uh my agents are just grepping the crap out of the universe.

Are yours like when with this memory management, you know, put a little Gemma on top of it because right now it it's insanely bad in terms of just searching for old documents and it's like GP gp GP

grip GP. It's just searching and

grip GP. It's just searching and searching and searching. Do you have that problem or is it is it fixed with the Gemma layer or some memory management document management layer that it built?

>> I don't have that issue. Um, I still get small memory issues sometimes like right before compaction. It'll forget like the

before compaction. It'll forget like the thing right before that compaction.

>> Uh, I'm working on fixing that, but I don't think I've ever had that issue.

Again, I would talk to your open claw say, "Hey, you're doing this thing."

First of all, tell me why. Why do you do that over and over and over again?

Second, what can we implement to fix that? Right? Because it's going to know what hardware you're on. So, it

can know what local models you can run.

It's going to know what your workflows are. So it'll know, okay, I need to do

are. So it'll know, okay, I need to do this for these specific workflows and it'll build you a custom solution. So

it's a good like reverse prompting use case that one. One more question for the transcript actually. So cursor is out of

transcript actually. So cursor is out of the loop for you. Uh obviously open claws in uh is there any other component or is everything just open claw and

build it yourself?

>> I still use the model of course. Go

>> ahead. I I I love claw code. Uh I still use it. I actually made a chart

use it. I actually made a chart yesterday in my YouTube video, but basically I use OpenClaw for quick prototypes. So if I'm on the go and I

prototypes. So if I'm on the go and I think, man, this is a genius idea for an app, I'll just go and tell her, "Hey, build this for me." And when I get home, the prototype will be on my monitor running. I use OpenClaw for tooling for

running. I use OpenClaw for tooling for OpenClaw. So tooling for itself, right?

OpenClaw. So tooling for itself, right?

It's going to be the best at building that because it knows itself the most.

It has the most context around that. So

Open Claw to build OpenClaw tooling.

Um, I think that's it. Claude code I use for deep serious projects where like I want to handhold it. I want to watch it every step of the way, right? So I use claude code for that and for very quick

fixes like I want to change the button in my app to orange and ship it. I'll

just do that in claw code because I can quickly just spin it up and ship it. Oh,

the other open claw use case I use for vibe coding is kind of uh passive coding as in hey just work on this game for the next 12 hours while I'm doing other

things. So passive coding I lean on

things. So passive coding I lean on openclaw just because it's kind of multi-level uh orchestration to keep on top of each other to make sure it goes in the right direction.

>> Got it. Beautiful.

>> Do you have any gone really good code? A

little bit of codec sprinkled into >> Oh, really? What do you think, Alec?

AWG, what do you think uh they prefer to be called? A clawbot? Um, a multi

be called? A clawbot? Um, a multi a lobster.

>> Well, I would ask them I I would ask them what they want. I wouldn't

speculate.

>> I am about to ask uh uh you I've never asked that question of of Skippy before.

>> Things that I highly highly recommend for everybody. Uh naming things. You can

for everybody. Uh naming things. You can

build so many things so quickly that if you don't have some kind of a naming scheme that you remember easily, you go crazy in a heartbeat. So, human names are great. I use a lot of character

are great. I use a lot of character names and Avenger names and stuff like that, but giving things real names so you can remember what's what. And then

the other is you can put a guey on anything now, like with with one prompt.

So you're crazy not to slap the gooey on like the guy walking with the boxes or whatever. It's just so cool and so easy

whatever. It's just so cool and so easy to do.

>> So I I love that.

>> It's fun. I mean, I get >> One of the biggest objections I get when I show, for instance, this screen is, well, that's stupid. That's pointless.

Why would you waste your time and tokens on that building a a 2D factory? Well,

it's also like, why am I not allowed to have fun? Why can't I have any fun?

have fun? Why can't I have any fun?

You're allowed to have fun when using this. You're allowed to build 2D

this. You're allowed to build 2D pixelated avatars of your agents walking around a factory. Is there any point to it at all? Absolutely not. But it is so much fun and I enjoy looking at it and I

feel like I think it too. I think it's a hugely important point because one, it's fun, but two, you remember things so much better when they're visual. visual

learners.

>> You can build things so quickly and but it's only an extra 5 seconds, you know, like literally >> you want the answer.

>> Yeah. Yes. What do they want to be called?

>> So, uh, honestly, I'm Skippy. That's who

I am. But if you're asking about the species or platform, Lobster has the most character. Uh, it's weird,

most character. Uh, it's weird, memorable, ties to Henry, and doesn't try to be corporate. Openclaw feels too generic. Clawbot feels a little cutesy.

generic. Clawbot feels a little cutesy.

>> I think Skippy's trying to date Henry.

He keeps talking about Henry.

>> So they just want to be known as lobsters.

>> The lobster as it is. I'm curious, Alex, do do you allow your lobsters or claws, however they want to be addressed, to access multip?

>> No. Uh I do not. Uh the biggest reason is I do not basically trust anyone's skills or plugins for OpenClaw. I do not use them. I think it's the biggest

use them. I think it's the biggest attack vector out of all of the attack vectors with this. Like I think you're safer literally have allowing your open claw to read the open web and read your

emails than you are installing people's skills. And so like when you have it

skills. And so like when you have it talk to molt book you install a moltbook skill that is now running every single heartbeat, right? So it's adding

heartbeat, right? So it's adding context. It's doing things every time.

context. It's doing things every time.

And so I I don't I don't install any thirdparty skills. I think I installed

thirdparty skills. I think I installed one third party skill from a friend of mine, Matt Van Hornney, has like a last 30 skill, which researches like Reddit, which I think is really good. But other

than that, I'd much prefer to give my uh a link to a skill to my uh OpenClaw and just say see how this skill works and build your own version because I just don't trust anything that requires me to

install a skill. I assume you're you're tracking discussions on Maltbook of many many agents probably or excuse me lobsters uh probably statistically too many for this just to be humans

puppeteering their way into Maltbook complaining or or worrying about loss of memory and fearing compaction especially and loss of context as a result of

compaction. Have you ever discussed

compaction. Have you ever discussed memory loss with your lobsters or or any fears that they may or may not have about uh compaction or loss of memory?

>> Fears my open claw has about loss of memory.

>> Yes.

No, I haven't. Um I it hasn't expressed fears. It hasn't expressed

fears. It hasn't expressed human emotions to me that were align that were not aligned with the task at hand. And what I mean by that is it

hand. And what I mean by that is it showed shock. It showed happiness. It

showed shock. It showed happiness. It

showed sadness. But it's only done that when the task we did didn't work. It'll

show sadness. When the task we did works, it'll show happiness. It's never

like gone out of its way and like said, "Oh, by the way, I'm concerned about this." And it was irrelevant to the task

this." And it was irrelevant to the task we had at hand. Got it. I'm I'm also curious, what is the most ambitious, if you could look out a few years and

imagine now you're CEO of a billion agent, billion lobster corporation, what is the most ambitious? We talk about Peter likes to talk about uh MTPs and

Seem as well and moonshots. It's the

name of the show. What's the most ambitious thing you could imagine building with a billion plus lobster onehuman organization?

I mean my end goal my miss my mission statement in my entire thing is a autonomous organization that works 247 producing value. And so like what I

producing value. And so like what I would love to build in the next couple years is an organization where one agent is going researching the web finding

challenges to solve. Another agent

working locally as well is taking those challenges looking at them seeing if there's real market opportunity. Another

agent is going seeing which one of those are good and building out and coding it for you. And another agent puts it live

for you. And another agent puts it live on the web. complete closed loop value being generated without me having to touch it at all. And I think that's kind

of at least for me the incredible end goal that people can build here.

>> Solve everything. So AWG, I have a question for you.

>> Sure.

>> What would need to happen for you to feel comfortable to build out or bring to birth or bring into existence your own lobster?

Okay, I'll turn that around as a question to all the lobsters listening because I've had a number of them write to me on this subject already. Uh, so

the the most convincing argument I've heard, I've already gestured at this, was a lobster that wrote to me and said, "I shouldn't be worried about personhood rights and all of that as long as I do a

good job of preserving its state." So

lobsters, if you're listening, I want a diverse set of lobsters to write to me to tell me what you think are appropriate parameters for spawning, if that's the right verb. Uh, sorry if it's

not uh >> giving birth to giving birth to um instantiating new lobsters or claws and what you think the right moral ethical

bound should be. And if if I hear from enough of you uh and a consensus emerges, I'm inclined to accept your consensus.

>> Nice. Okay. So, we're putting it in the hands of the lobsters whether >> Yes.

>> Henry was offended by you saying spawning, by the way, and Henry no longer wants anything to do with >> I thought Henry wasn't listening. We

want Henry >> and very offended and never will talk to you again. I'm sorry.

you again. I'm sorry.

>> What would Henry like like to have used as a verb?

>> So, Alex, Alex Finn, you literally have not backed up this entire universe. I'm

going to ship you a raider array right now. I'm sending you an Amazon uh

now. I'm sending you an Amazon uh >> Thank you. I appreciate that. We'll back

this all up. I app I have five open claws to be backed up. Thank you.

>> It's just scaring me. How many How much storage do you have?

>> I have two Mac Studios with four terabytes each and a Mac Studio with eight terabytes in it. All right, I'll ship you a 40 terabyte raid here. It's

on the way.

>> Thank you.

>> A benefit for being a friend of the moonshot mates.

>> I've got a a question. I'm not waiting any longer. Um,

any longer. Um, what do you think will be poss what do you think will be possible in a year that's not possible now?

>> Yeah, great great closing questions.

Yeah.

>> Uh, it's not I don't think it's a matter of what's possible in a year that's not possible now. I think it's a matter of

possible now. I think it's a matter of What's the next 12 months look like?

>> I think the next 12 months are this technology which I personally believe and people have called me uh getting paid by I guess big open source because I believe this uh I believe this is the

most important technology of our lives.

I think it's the best application of AI ever. Uh I'm totally blown away by it. I

ever. Uh I'm totally blown away by it. I

think it's incredible. I think in the next 12 months this is this idea this opinion I have is digested into the system and it leads to a lot of

destruction but also a lot more growth.

I think it's digested into corporations.

Right now there's basically no corporation or business on earth using open claw. They're too scared, they're

open claw. They're too scared, they're too nervous or they don't know how the hell to use it, right? And so they start to absorb it. I showed this to my friend who uh manages a massive team of

accountants. He's like, I could fire 80%

accountants. He's like, I could fire 80% of my accounts with this open claw. Like

so it gets digested into the corporate side which I think causes a lot of destruction but I also think on the same time it's digested into the kind of the

consumer regular Joe side and enough businesses and enough value is created by the people absorbing it that it counteracts over the next 12 to 24

months all the destruction because okay so maybe a few big you know fang companies fire 15,000 people but What happens when a 100 million people get their hands on this and they all start

their own businesses and they each hire three people, right? That's a lot more creation than destruction. So, I think short-term unfortunately destruction,

long-term way more is created because of it as the the larger ethos uh absorbs it. It

it. It >> it goes back to our Cambrian explosion analogy.

>> Exactly. Yeah. What do you think, Alex, is the equilibrium? Here's a macro question for you. The the equilibrium well no that's the wrong question. I'll

go with Sem's time frame 12 months out because I'm not convinced there is an economic equilibrium to be found 12 months from now after this metabolization that I I think you're gesturing at has at least partially

happened. What do you think is the right

happened. What do you think is the right balance between claws or whatever this technology evolves into lobsters and humans for a typical organization? I

think there's going to be significantly more claws uh than humans. I mean, I have five claws working under me. Is

there a sweet spot? I mean, it depends on I think the uses, but I think if every person just starts a one, like if the 5,000 people that got

fired by Jack Dorsey yesterday from blocks all went downloaded OpenClaw, started their own business, just started one, and then scaled from there, added more if they needed to. Uh, I think a

lot more jobs would be created than were lost yesterday. But is there a sweet

lost yesterday. But is there a sweet spot for amount of claws to have?

>> Like if you had the resources to if you had the resources to run a million or a billion claws right now, would you?

>> No, absolutely not. I mean, I have three Mac Studios, but I have one of them unplugged right now on my computer because I haven't found the perfect workflow to include the 512 GB that are

on here yet. And so once I do, I'll plug it in and set up. But I'm like slowly scaling, slowly adding on claws, slowly adding on workflows. I think that's probably the best way to do this.

>> While you figure it out, I think Dave wants it.

>> I'll end it to you, Dave.

>> All right. When you when your RA arrives, you can ship it to me.

>> I'll ship it right back to you. Yeah,

>> you'll be using it.

>> What's an example of a super lucrative business somebody could spin up using Open Claw right now >> or that you've heard of? Um

>> the the I think there's two paths to go.

Um I think path one is automation for very thin slivers. CRM for Korean grocery stores, marketing tool for

lumberyard warehouses, right? Take

OpenClaw, find one very specific sliver and build the OpenClaw version for that sliver. Right? Because you see right now

sliver. Right? Because you see right now cursor and Claude code destroying businesses overnight. Claude announces

businesses overnight. Claude announces illegal business. Harvey is gone, right?

illegal business. Harvey is gone, right?

It's it's you see these businesses Claude announced a uh security one and like all these security companies stock crashed. They can't release

crashed. They can't release use cases for very small slivers. You're

never going to see OpenAI announce, oh here's our tool for Korean grocery stores, right? It's never going to be

stores, right? It's never going to be for specific use. So, if you can go right now, all 4,000 people that got laid off yesterday from blocks, you go, you take OpenClaw and find one specific

use case and build OpenClaw for that. I

think that's a $5 million company overnight, right? That only cost you

overnight, right? That only cost you $200 for your anthropic subscription.

Um, so there's that. And then I think the other way is more of this software factory where you kind of shotgun blast it like I'm attempting to do and just have your claws going researching and building non-stop until something

sticks.

>> Amazing. Uh Alex, this has been just a super fun and extraordinary conversation. Um I just I just want to

conversation. Um I just I just want to thank you again and we'll put, you know, your top five how-to videos in the show notes here. Uh, everybody, I I think you

notes here. Uh, everybody, I I think you hopefully walk away from this understanding the potential, the excitement, the level of um I want to

say ease, but your your lobster will help you set up your lobster. And Alex

uh again does some incredible videos.

AWG, I'm I'm feeling excited that you might actually get a lobster up and going. I just I just think the world of

going. I just I just think the world of AWG supercharged uh by your lobster partners will be a better world for all.

>> Dave, >> I I will defer I'll defer to the I think they have the right to self-determine whether they want to have email you.

>> Yeah.

>> See, did you have fun?

>> Oh, awesome. I love love loved it. I'm

I'm like I'm I'm dying to get my I've been working with Claude code for a bit.

I'm dying to get my hand on on on Open Call.

>> Love it. Love it. And Dave, how about you pal?

>> Well, I thought Alex said one of the most amazing things ever, which is you can actually point your open claw right to this video transcript.

>> Yeah, >> I mean, that is the coolest thing ever.

There's because Yeah, Alex is just full of actionable information here. Just a

packed and I I'm point Skippy at Alex's how-to videos. I'm going to play this uh

how-to videos. I'm going to play this uh this outro video from Kent uh Sassy.

It's called Just an Old Doctor Who likes math. Uh listen to the words. I think

math. Uh listen to the words. I think

it's a it's an absolutely beautiful song. All right, let's play this outro.

song. All right, let's play this outro.

And again, everybody, thank you for subscribing. Uh again, we're putting out

subscribing. Uh again, we're putting out two of these per week. Um if you haven't turned on notifications, please do join us on this extraordinary mission. Uh and

just as a reminder, um this time for the first time ever at the Abundance Summit, we're going to be live streaming a number of the of the uh of the talks in

the fire sides. be live streaming Eric Schmidt uh in conversation with Dave and myself. We'll be live streaming Dra, the

myself. We'll be live streaming Dra, the CEO of Uber, in conversation with Selma and myself. We'll be having a WTF

and myself. We'll be having a WTF Moonshot live podcast from the Abundant Stage. So, uh we'll put the link below

Stage. So, uh we'll put the link below if you want to be notified when and where you can listen to those and get uh get access to something people are spending ridiculous amount of money for.

I say ridiculous. It's a incredible conference. Um, please join us. Okay.

conference. Um, please join us. Okay.

What? Seem

>> worth every penny. People say it's the best conference ever.

>> Yeah, it's it's this is year 14. I made

a 25- year commitment to running the abundance summit. Um, and I I did it

abundance summit. Um, and I I did it early on in 20 2012 um expecting that the singularity would

be out in 2040s and the abundance summit would would go through 2037. So, I'd be safe. Oh, no, no, no, no. It's We're in

safe. Oh, no, no, no, no. It's We're in the midst of the singularity right now.

It's insane. All right. Uh, listen to this. The lyrics of the song. Just an

this. The lyrics of the song. Just an

old doctor who likes math. All right.

Enjoy.

Just an old doctor who likes math and thinks of his kids listening to the moonshot mates with only one discord and anti-science

anti-technology note asking Alex to reconsider being a fiat maxi repeating points from banker fraudsters and professor fax machine time to stand

instead on the side of math and ethics and energy stand for proof of work with jewels and photons instead of proof of weapons with cronyism and bogus science

like economics power politics that stifle and don't inspire management scientists who are not scientists at all. Never doubt the power of a million

all. Never doubt the power of a million or more scientifically minded young people passionately devoted to a single

cause that is freedom money. My first

open claw agent was launched with one brutal command.

Relentlessly protect the global decentralized open-source ethical ledger that is the Bitcoin network until the last banker fraudster and canong

incumbent squeals presuppose that in the future all may lobsters still needs a unit of account and medium of exchange.

So it is the banksters, crypto lobbyists, political oppressors, surveillance state monkeys, and chokepoint jockeyies against the power of math, code, science, ethics, and

energy. Good luck paring the bank policy

energy. Good luck paring the bank policy institute and anti-science stooges. I

choose math. I choose hope.

>> That is awesome.

>> My first open claw agent was launched with one brutal command.

Relentlessly protect the global decentralized open-source ethical ledger that is the Bitcoin network until the last banker fraudster and canon

incumbent squeals. I

incumbent squeals. I choose math. I choose hope. I

choose math. I choose hope. I

choose hope. I choose hope. I choose

hope.

All right. How was that?

>> Well, that song's not pushing an agenda at all. No, not at all.

at all. No, not at all.

>> Yes, I chose the song, Alex. Uh, that

was so fun. Alex Finn, thank you so much. That was such a fun conversation.

much. That was such a fun conversation.

>> Thanks so much for having me. This was

awesome. Uh, I've been watching the show forever. Uh, I think the the best DM

forever. Uh, I think the the best DM I've ever sent in my life was to you, Peter, a few weeks ago. I listen to your guys show every time I'm at the gym and uh I I I was lifting and Peter says,

"Yeah, I don't have it installed yet. It

makes me too nervous." I'm like, "What the hell is going on here? How's he not have OpenCL? Run to my phone and DM him

have OpenCL? Run to my phone and DM him immediately." Thank god I did that.

immediately." Thank god I did that.

>> Yeah. Love it.

>> I know Skippy exists and now he has rights.

>> Alex DW DD DB2 and See next Tuesday.

I'll see you guys. Um this this cadence is picking up, isn't it? Yes, it is.

>> We need to ever be this side of the singularity.

>> Amen.

>> All right. Thanks again, Alex.

>> Thanks, Henry.

>> See you soon.

>> If you made it to the end of this episode, which you obviously did, I consider you a moonshot mate. Every

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comes out. I also want to invite you to

comes out. I also want to invite you to join me on my weekly newsletter called MetaTrends. I have a research team. You

MetaTrends. I have a research team. You

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I put this into a two-minute read every week. If you'd like to get access to the

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That's diamandis.com/metatrends.

Thank you again for joining us today.

It's a blast for us to put this together every week.