outlasting the drought: being single in your 30s

If I wanted all of my kids by 30, I should have started like 5 years ago.

Thornback. Am I doing something wrong?

No, I'm still as single as I was when I was 13.

It is not actually peace because it is delusion.

[music] Hello and welcome to Hot Pursuit, a podcast about creating conversations where nothing is off limits.

This podcast is produced by Asian Boss Girl. What is a thornback?

Girl. What is a thornback?

A thornback is an unmarried woman who is supposedly, I think, uh, no skills and very ugly and has not had a a man to come save her from her predicament.

What predicament?

And she has to be over 25.

Over 25. Oh, don't talk to her. She's a

thornback. [laughter]

I'm like 25 is when you expire. Are you

kidding me? When I I saw a box of my grandparents documents and one of the documents for my grandma, she was 29 at the time when she came to America, I think, and it labeled her spinster.

[laughter] It literally said spinster. Yeah.

It was crazy. [laughter]

So, we were like beyond expired spinsters. Yeah.

spinsters. Yeah.

Today, we're talking about outlasting the drought because we are all in our 30s and surprise and single. surp not not surprised.

and single. surp not not surprised.

[laughter] We're [laughter] in our 30s. Young 30s,

but 30s nonetheless, and single. And we

have lived all of our 20s just watching every friend get married. And recently we were talking and we said it feels like with

all of the marriages that happened and all the relationships that we had to just like sit through and watch people have um people are starting to have kids. Yes.

kids. Yes.

People are starting to have divorces.

People are starting to have like really deep crises in their life.

And we are like we sit back and we think maybe we have outlasted the drought.

Maybe it was better this way. [laughter]

Maybe it was all for a purpose.

No shade to anyone who's [laughter] No, no, no shade to anyone who's like currently married, but we grew up none of us are from California, so it's very customary for the cultures that we grew

up in to get married pretty early. So, I

saw a lot of my friends get married at like 22 to like latest, maybe 28. So, it

was just like that's that's what people expected. And and since we kind of have

expected. And and since we kind of have crossed that line without a husband, we've had these like thoughts about ourselves. Are is there something wrong

ourselves. Are is there something wrong with us? Like what did we miss? Did we

with us? Like what did we miss? Did we

miss anything? And now I think being in our 30s, we're looking at all of these relationships and how our lives are so different from our friends who are married and we go, "Oh, you know, maybe

this is the better path." Or like maybe it's okay and fine and there's nothing to worry about, you know, cuz because like how many holidays have I been to where everyone's asking like when are you like are you dating? Like when are

you going to date? Like you need to have kids or like how many how many parties have I been to where I am the 19th wheel? How many relationships have I sat

wheel? How many relationships have I sat through of girlfriends debating whether or not to marry the guy that they're with? And like when you're surrounded by

with? And like when you're surrounded by all of that all the time, you're just kind of like, damn. Like I'm not looking actively. I'm open to it, but like if

actively. I'm open to it, but like if I'm not looking, am I doing something wrong with my life? Like I have one life. The vanity and like the beauty you

life. The vanity and like the beauty you have when you're young, everyone tells you you can feel it expiring.

I feel it expiring.

Yeah. You can feel your college team disappearing into It's true though. You can feel like the respect for society just like waning.

Like the little respect that they even maybe had for you just evaporating with your age. So it's like, am I just

your age. So it's like, am I just flinging my rings off? um am I making a grave mistake by not trying to find a

life partner and reproduce? And

for the longest time, I felt that way.

Yeah. Especially mid to late 20s into early 30s. Well, no, late 20s. I was

early 30s. Well, no, late 20s. I was

just like, "Oh, if I wanted all my kids by 30, I should have started like 5 years ago, but I'm here now, so it's already too late for me." And it doesn't help that everyone's always questioning you and asking why don't you have you're such a great catch. Why don't you have a

boyfriend?

As if as if getting married will make you more of a complete person.

It's kind of like that's the rhetoric.

Gives you more value.

Yeah. Yeah.

There's always the comment of like you seem like you'd be so great or like you're so wonderful. I don't what are all these guys doing? And I'm like girl I don't know. [laughter]

You tell them. They're scared of you.

You tell me.

You did you guys ever play the board game life as a kid where you have a little car and you like have you pick your little driver do the peg? You ever

play this board game?

I've seen I've seen it. No, wait. Yeah,

I have played it once.

Yes. There's a spinner and then you go you like buy a home and then you like pick a career card and all that kind of stuff. I literally see that board game

stuff. I literally see that board game sometimes and like people are seemingly like down the path and they're about to win the game because they're going to get to retirement faster. If anyone has played the game, you know, if you're

not, it's just that insane. [laughter]

And I'm back here at square four being like, I'm still as single as I was when I was 13.

Yeah. And then you you feel like you're like, am I behind?

Yes.

They're making life changes and strides forward that feel like there's forward progression.

Yes.

Am I behind?

Yes. Especially when you go home.

Yeah.

Yeah. Yeah. Every time every time I go home, I feel like I'm so behind because everyone's married, everyone has a house, everyone's on their second kid, and then we come here.

I love coming back to LA because then I'm like, "Oh my gosh, thank God." Like

39 and being single is so normal. 39 is

young. Even like 45, that's pretty young. It like people

young. It like people don't question you when you're 45 and single in LA versus back in Texas, they're like, "What happened?"

Like [gasps] [sighs] there must be something wrong with you.

[laughter] You see the puzzled look in their face when they're making small talk with you.

Yeah. They're just like, "What have you been up to lately?

Are there any boys?"

Yeah.

I visit my family overseas and I have like a a really like delicate heartwarming heartto-he heart with one of my aunts and then just out of nowhere as there's like a lull in the conversation. She goes, "I'll pray for

conversation. She goes, "I'll pray for you." [laughter]

you." [laughter] Thanks. I guess. No, my aunt says that

Thanks. I guess. No, my aunt says that too. She's like, "Emily, you're such a

too. She's like, "Emily, you're such a good catch." Like I just don't know what

good catch." Like I just don't know what these boys are waiting for. Like are you praying? Are you looking? Even my mom,

praying? Are you looking? Even my mom, even my mom, she's just like, Emily, I don't think you're going to find anyone at your church. You should go to a Chinese church. You should you should

Chinese church. You should you should come to this church way out on the east side. I'm like, that's like an hour and

side. I'm like, that's like an hour and a half drive every Sunday. She's like,

"Well, do you want to be married?" And

I'm like, "I'm not going to hunt for my man. He's just going to land in my lap."

man. He's just going to land in my lap."

That's what I pray for. I say, "Dear Jesus, please, if I am to be married, just have him come [laughter] to me." I

feel like men used to hunt and gather.

They can hunt and gather me. Actually,

no, that [laughter] sounds bad, but they they can find me. I'm right here.

Pursue is the better word.

Pursue. [laughter] Pursue. I'm not

hiding. I'm not hiding. I'm on a podcast for God's sake.

Meanwhile, my father any any male name in any story. [laughter] It's like, "Are they cute? Is he single?" I'm like, "No,

they cute? Is he single?" I'm like, "No, that's my manager. No, that's [laughter] my coworker."

my coworker." Didn't Didn't your father He said, "Jen, you should wear makeup." [laughter]

Oh, yeah. I was going to church. I was

FaceTiming them before church and I was like, "I'm going to chat with you as long as I can until I need to go cuz I need to go at 10:30." Yeah.

It was like 10:15 and he he was like, "Don't you need to like get ready for church?" And I was like, "No, I'm going

church?" And I was like, "No, I'm going to chat with you until 10:30. Then I'll

leave at 10:30." He was like, "You're not going to put makeup on." [laughter]

Father, I was like, "No, I'm going to praise the Lord."

Lord." No, but people go to church for that.

He was like, "A little doesn't hurt, you know."

know." Oh [laughter] my gosh.

I thought I thought he said, "It really helps."

helps." What he said? [laughter]

I was like, "Okay, and FaceTime thie 15 minutes to do this look. as you like swipe mascara and spirit.

Yeah, [laughter] but I feel like church is the worst place to meet people.

Don't get me started on Christian men.

What's it called? Scabs. What was that?

Oh, no. Short Christian Asian boys are like triple oppressed. I forget.

Triple oppressed [laughter] because they're oppressed by their height, their ethnicity, and their their gender. [snorts] I FORGET

gender. [snorts] I FORGET THEIR NO, NO, NO, NO. NOT their gender.

Gender. [laughter]

What height?

Oh, and their religion. height,

ethnicity, and religion.

Height, ethnicity, religion. That's just

been like a thing circulating online.

Avoid the scabs because they're triple oppressed.

Triple oppressed.

But yeah, I Oh my gosh, we could have a whole episode about Christian boys.

All that to say, we have all reached a point in our mid to late 20s where we thought, is there something wrong with me?

Yeah.

My conclusion is that I am part of the problem. [laughter]

problem. [laughter] Oh, you think you're part of the problem?

How?

Yeah. Because I was closed off in this area to men for like many many years.

Partially.

You mean like dating?

No, dating men.

Partially it was a bad ending of a relationship and it was hurt real bad and I was like I never want to feel this way again.

Um I think I told my I think I told people during that period I don't have any more heartbreaks in me anymore and that's just not the way to date. That's not the way to like you

to date. That's not the way to like you know you can't. Um the other problem was I think like I just didn't trust myself around men. I think it brought out sides

around men. I think it brought out sides of me that I didn't really like. And so

I thought in my like early 20s brain like, "Oh, I just need to like cut this area off and detox from it and not think about them other than a wall." So I was like just completely try

wall." So I was like just completely try to like turn away from this area and just steal walls multi-layered.

[laughter] Turn away the cold [laughter] war.

Yeah. Really? Really? So, we're on strawing the ice. Yeah. We're currently

sticking her the the the the hunk of frozen chicken in boiling water.

Both of us have a flamethrower. We're

just like every day we'll have to melt the ice just one [laughter] layer at a time.

Yeah. Yeah.

And I really noticed it recently with because I'll have friends say like I never heard you even say like that guy was really cute or that you found him attractive. You just didn't talk about

attractive. You just didn't talk about it at all cuz you cut yourself off from this area for all these years. So, we're

thawing the ice. So, therefore, like I am the problem. You guys probably all are not the problem.

Is that a problem? Is that considered a problem? Is is being is is finding a

problem? Is is being is is finding a partner a problem to be solved or is that just like a life choice?

Yeah. What is the problem?

What's the problem, [laughter] right? What's the problem? I [laughter]

right? What's the problem? I [laughter]

don't see a problem. I just see maybe you had a lifetime of peace. [laughter]

We have other things back with this one.

[snorts] What is the problem? [laughter]

Yeah. Like what what is said problem you are referring to specifically? Is it

like because the larger question is is there a problem with me because I don't have a spouse?

Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.

Right. And then you you conclude okay maybe I am part of the problem because I wasn't open to dating but like what within that is the problem?

I think well so there's a period of time where I was like I don't need someone once I don't want to think about it. And

so I was like denying the desire. It's

the toxic like I don't need a man.

Yeah. type of which which like actually and a healthier version of that is like I am at peace with myself versus I don't need a man but like let me keep kind of like cutting off that desire or

like wanting it but you just don't admit it and you like delude yourself into thinking like I don't want this I don't need this at all and there's a version of that I think for me that I bought into where I was like I don't need this at all and I have a friend that also did

that too so we were just an echo chamber together um so I think the problem is that like it is not actually peace this because it is delusion. [laughter]

But here's the thing. But you wanted it.

Delusion feels like peace for a period of time.

It does.

It really feels until things start to break.

Until things start to break and you're like, "Oh, I was in denial versus like, no, I actually came to peace and contentment with something."

Yeah.

Where do you think that notion of of the hyperindependence of I don't need a man came from? Just media like your friends?

came from? Just media like your friends?

I've always been hyperindependent. um as

an only child.

Listen to that episode by the way.

Always been hyper independent. And then

I think also like um my parents are both hyper independent and so like what I was always taught is like just handle things by yourself. Don't ask for help. You

by yourself. Don't ask for help. You

don't need this, you need this. And it

was never encouraged either to like do life with others and like yeah build that companionship. Um but

then also at the same time Jen wear makeup. [laughter]

makeup. [laughter] Yeah. Now, now, now that I've turned 30,

Yeah. Now, now, now that I've turned 30, like for most of my 20s, it was Where was the switch? Because

I turned 30 and they were like, "Oh my god [laughter] babies. I need to crochet things for

babies. I need to crochet things for your baby."

your baby." It's so [laughter] true. Like when when I was in college, my dad was like, "Don't date. Don't date. Don't date."

"Don't date. Don't date. Don't date."

And literally once once I graduated, he was like, "Why aren't you talking to anyone?" [laughter]

anyone?" [laughter] Yeah.

Like [crying] the Asian I wasn't allowed to.

The Asian-American experience. Yeah,

my friends.

It's just like it's either they're [clears throat] a distraction.

Don't you dare. Or just like, why haven't you been talking to anyone? I'm

like, I need a grandchild.

Where's the middle? Where's the middle?

Yeah. Yeah. My dad says that, too.

I just want a grandchild.

Mhm. Or it's also from like a desire for you to be taken care of. For for my family, it's like you're an only child.

You don't have siblings. So, it's like Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.

Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.

So, they don't have to stress about Yeah. And I was like, "When I die, you

Yeah. And I was like, "When I die, you someone will take care of you."

Yeah.

Yeah.

Yeah. That's nice. That's a nice sentiment.

I know.

Yeah.

I'm like, I'm going to have to take care of them, too. [laughter]

Yeah.

You need a helper. You need a help.

There was one time where we were talking to your parents and we were going through all of my exes. Remember?

Oh, yeah.

And basically, Jen's parents were judging all of my exes via photo.

And so then we we asked mom and dad, "Which one do you want for me? And her

mom literally said, "Just play with Jen.

It's not worth it." [laughter]

[gasps] She said, "You be her life companion."

[laughter] And now we live together.

They are domestic partners. [laughter]

We often joke like if all of us, one of us were married with a child like this would not even be possible. And

so the capacity to give to your relationships, to your passions, to your dreams, to the things that you care deeply about, you have so much more capacity right now.

I feel that compared to when I look at like married life or with children, like you just don't. It's a limitation.

don't. It's a limitation.

When my last relationship ended, I remember talking to my brother about it.

And he was, as you know, a family member is very concerned about you and wanting you to find a life partner and not understanding why you're giving up chances.

Yeah. Um he asked why because this person like clearly loves you like they take care of you. What is not working?

And I remember very clearly articulating to him I can just run so much faster on my own.

Wow.

And and he said my brother had said what's the point of running if you end up at the destination alone?

Oh and the thing is like there's so much validity in both of those right? Um, and

it's not to say that like I only want one over the other and like maybe a few years down like I want that with somebody, but like right now at this point in my life, like I felt so much weight. I felt like I was

held back so much. Mhm.

So, back to what Jen was saying [laughter] in terms of you just have so much more capacity to give and and even in the little things down to lifestyle decisions for me, like if I just want to pick organic meat and not

fight about it, you know, that's like a really microcosmic example, but a macrocosmic example is fighting about career and like where you can be and and if this other person wants their career to be X, Y, and Z and they also want to

have kids and they also have all these things like you have to think about and consider all of those. And I mean there's an there's an element of like being selfless and loving, but there's also an important part of like

acknowledging what you want and like as women you are pretty much taught in society to absorb.

Yeah. To absorb, dismiss, just become the vehicle to someone else's success, fit into their world.

I hate when I hear men be like, "I'm finally ready to find someone who will fit into my world."

No. [laughter] How about how about we make a new world together?

No.

Yeah. [laughter]

Yeah. I I don't think this any of this is just to downplay married life too because I feel like as as single people, we're able to spread our love so much wider.

Um but like in a in a married relationship and like once you start having kids, the concentration of love I feel is like way more intense, but your world shrinks down to your home.

That's good.

Yeah. So, it's just like what kind of life do you want? And so, I feel I feel for our personalities, we would have to I don't know like the

kind of guy that we would finally say yes to really has to be worth condensing our love into.

Mhm.

Yeah. Because there's just like so much love that we can find elsewhere. And

like, of course, we're not going to settle. But I I see my friends who are

settle. But I I see my friends who are happily married and it's just like such a beautiful life as well. And I'm just like, "Wow, I can't wait to experience that."

that." But until then, I'm actually still very happy with my life. Yeah. Because in my privileged single life, even though I see the beautiful sides of marriage, I still think to myself like, "Thank God I

don't have to think about those things right now." You know what I mean? Like

right now." You know what I mean? Like

when I hear about the conversations or like the the considerations they have to take or even the plans that they have to make, I am thankful that I don't have to deal with that right now. And I mean that's like a very privileged place to say

because I don't have any other responsibilities other than myself.

But like as a modern woman like I want to enjoy that.

Yeah. [laughter] You know.

Yeah. And and we have the luxury too now because it's no like it's no longer a necessity to and it's like the first time in history that women really get this choice and there's so many of them.

So we're going to take it.

It's also [clears throat] fascinating to see that this the the challenges and the things that married people think about and what we think about are different, but we we it's it's easy for us to

desire what the other has. I feel like we had um one of our friends who's married and is thinking about having a kid now, shout out to you, Bub, um had had a period of time of wrestling

through this exact question, which is what is the dream now? the dream for her like finally coming to like peace with the dream is to build a beautiful family

but like that also means setting aside other dreams that she might have for other passions and desires. And the flip side of that for us is like gosh there's all these dreams that we have now and maybe there is the dream still to have a

family and have a kid and that time may come but right now we have the capacity to give so much to the dreams and passions and the things that we think the world can become more beautiful and with the season that we're in right now

in the time.

But it's like to want it all is almost always going to breed discontent. to want to want to have both

discontent. to want to want to have both in in either season is too it's too much. It's literally it's impossible.

much. It's literally it's impossible.

Like I think growing up like younger, you think that you can have it all. And

it feels nice to hear that you can have it all, but I think like the reality is there's so many trade-offs that you make and being content with the trade-offs is actually what's important instead of trying to figure out how to fit it all in and stretched in every direction.

Yeah.

Yeah. Trade-offs are beautiful.

Trade-offs are good.

Yeah.

Yeah.

Yeah. You can't you can't 100% pursue a dream when you're raising someone and be 100% present with them as well.

Yeah.

It has to sacrifice.

And similarly, when you are raising someone and you are a critical part of a family, you will have to deny parts of yourself in order to like pour into that family the way age.

Yeah.

Unless your dream is to be a mother. I

envy those.

Yeah.

Yeah. Like a wife and a mom. And they do such a good job too. And then so they get it all. They're [laughter] like, "This is the life I wanted."

Couldn't be me, though. [laughter]

So, how do you grapple with finding that contentment? Like, when does it get

contentment? Like, when does it get better? In the midst of our when we were

better? In the midst of our when we were in our mid to late 20s, like when did we really feel like we were content with being single despite watching everyone kind of go off on their way?

I think for me it was after I broke up with my boyfriend because Which one? [laughter]

Which one? [laughter] My last one.

my last one because we started dating around the season where all my friends started getting married. So I was like, "Okay, let's go down this path, see where it goes." And like throughout the relationship, it had a lot of highs, it

had a lot of lows, but one thing remained consistent. And it was just

remained consistent. And it was just like I have to like consider to this person, I'll have to like teach him how how to communicate with me and vice

versa. And like he has to be patient

versa. And like he has to be patient with me and I have to be be patient with him. And there's just a lot of stress

him. And there's just a lot of stress that you don't have as a single person.

And so after that relationship ended, of course, it was so sad and I was like down in the dumps for probably 4 months.

But but after that, I felt so much peace. I felt a lot of liberty just to

peace. I felt a lot of liberty just to pursue what I wanted. And then I also felt I had a lot of time. I had a lot of time and money. And I didn't have to think about like date nights and

spending time with them and seeing them all the time. I felt like, oh, finally now I can be 100% in what I want and like in pursuing what I want. And so,

like after after losing something that I that I felt would fulfill me, that's when I finally found freedom, if that makes sense. Like I finally felt

like, oh, you know, maybe this side this side is not better. It just like I see a lot of benefits to it and how it benefits my current season of life right now. And I really like it.

now. And I really like it.

Yeah. And like sure I could date here and there, but now I feel the bar is much higher for if I do want to enter into like a committed relationship with a goal of marriage. There are like a way

like way more what is it called? Qualifications. There

are way more qualifications he will have to get through for me to be like, "Okay, I'm going to I'm willing to change my entire life for you."

you." Yeah.

What are those qualities? M probably

like I just want I just want a best friend and I feel like it's kind of hard to find a best friend.

He ain't going to be me though.

[laughter] Yeah.

Yeah. Cuz like I look at my parents' marriage and they're best friends and I'm so like I saw that I grew up with that and I'm like I'm not going to have settle for anything other than that. My

sister and her husband they're also best friends. They're so cute. And so for me

friends. They're so cute. And so for me I'm like why would I not want a best friend? And so I have yet to find

friend? And so I have yet to find someone who is like who makes me like laugh a lot.

Yeah. I'm just kind of looking for something that feels right and like an energy. But like most of the guys that

energy. But like most of the guys that I've been meeting are [snorts] just like they just like to stroke their own ego.

And I'm just like my best friend wouldn't do that. [laughter]

Like that's a that's like a good litmus test. Like I always think would my

test. Like I always think would my husband do this? Would my best friend do this? And if it's no then they're

this? And if it's no then they're probably not it. Yeah.

Oh, interesting.

But it's very subjective to me. So, I

don't know if it's like fair or accurate, but that's just how I do things from now on.

Yeah.

But I'm very happy right now being single because I get to like I live around the corner from my best friends and we get to go on walks. It's so nice.

It's so nice.

So, anyways, [laughter] you guys like when did you realize like, oh, maybe maybe it's okay to be single right now?

When I was younger, I had this whole timeline in my head. I had the pen in my hand and I was like, I'm gonna write my story. And I was going to get married

story. And I was going to get married when I was 26.

I was gonna have three kids, two boys and a girl. As if you [laughter] can choose. I was going to have one at 28, one at 30, and one at 32.

Okay.

Because my mom had one when she was 28.

And then I turned 28. [laughter]

And then I was like, I think we need to let [snorts] this stream go [laughter] and embrace reality.

Speaking of letting go of dreams. Yeah. It I think it it literally is like

Yeah. It I think it it literally is like when what you thought was going to happen doesn't happen. Then you're now free. I was now freed

free. I was now freed and opened up to just like, okay, well, whatever story is going to be written for me, that's that's the story.

So, it's basically when my little booklet got like ripped through [laughter] the rather, I was like, "All right, blank sheet now.

White canvas." [laughter]

Yeah. Yeah. when you outgrew your plan my yeah my childhood fantasies and desires I think that's when it changed for me I think turning 30 also like there's not there's something with the number

solidifies something something in the number though something in the like nothing is important about the number but then something about being in that number you're just like we've arrived yeah we're [laughter]

we're here and and also I think the shift in the external environment forces you to have to forces me to have to face,

okay, how do you feel about it? Like

there's all these people that are going to be like, "Oh my god, it's time now.

What are you thinking?" You know, and I think the [laughter] what is Newton's law of like an a force yet there's like an equal and opposing force against another force. It's like there

are many forces on the outside now. So

you really got to solidify.

How do I feel about this? Am I okay? I

have to answer all these questions all the time now. So, we got to double down on we're good with like life is good now. I

promise you, you know, and the time will come and there's no I actually also feel like the more desperate and urgent the people around me are about it, the more calm I am.

You're just like, "Oh, chill."

Yeah. I'm like, I see the energy that this is and I'm like, you're just like, "Oh, no, no, no."

Yeah. I don't resonate.

Yeah. [laughter] Cuz they're not going to get married for the sake of getting married either. Like some people do

married either. Like some people do that.

Exactly.

Because they have a timeline that they want to adhere to, which is fine. That's

fine.

Mhm.

But but also maybe it's not if it's not the right answer for you. Like if it's if you don't fit into the timeline, that's okay.

It's like trying to f fit yourself into pants that don't fit anymore.

Yeah.

Just get bigger pants. You got to fit that ass somewhere.

Yeah. All that ass. Just get bigger pants.

Yeah. The skinny jeans were not made.

Bigger pants exist.

Clothes were made for you, not the other way around.

Yeah. And I feel like it's just it's just harder in general to find a partner because there's no cultural system set in place anymore. Like we don't have arranged marriages. We don't have like a

arranged marriages. We don't have like a place we go to to get matched.

Matched. Well, there are, but you have to pay for it. It's just not it's not something like you your mom takes you to.

Yeah.

Like you have to find him yourself.

Yeah. I think once you like deciding what you feel about things despite what people are asking you is so important.

And once you can just drown out that noise for a moment and ask yourself, am I actually happy with this life? you

know, am I happy with the decisions I've made, with where I've gotten myself, with the friends and the relationships that I have right now, with the existing family that I have. Is that enough for me right now?

And if you are not looking at the outside, if you're not looking at your friends, you're not comparing, are you happy? Like,

happy? Like, that's the important question.

And if you are, like, [ __ ] what everyone else says. It's fine. So, I think I I

else says. It's fine. So, I think I I also hit that point where I had to like think about what I feel about things.

And I was really okay with it, but just like tired of telling everybody. Um, and

there was a couple moments that really stood out to me from they were comments from men in my life that had for the past like 10 years been saying like, "You're too picky. Like, you need to you

need to like lower your standards a little bit. You are difficult to deal

little bit. You are difficult to deal with blah blah blah." Right? Or like

because your standards are so high or you are like too smart or whatever, whatever right?

And I was, it was after I turned 30.

This is a friend that I grew up with. We

were in the car, it was just us two. And

he every time I saw him, he was just like, "Matty, like you self- select out [laughter] and and like he has seen me through the years just kind of like say no to so many guys, right?" But we were in the car. He's like married has a beautiful

car. He's like married has a beautiful wife, beautiful home, like a beautiful life.

But he told me like unprompted. He said,

"Maddie, I'm so proud of you for just knowing what you want and sticking to it because I imagine it could not have been easy for like a few years."

Yeah.

You know, and it was so healing to hear that from a guy who was like taken those steps who also knows me and also like sees what women have to go through, I think.

Um, and he had said, you know, like I've done all of the steps. I've checked all the boxes on the list. I've followed the timeline. Yeah. I have a great career.

timeline. Yeah. I have a great career.

I'm in higher education. I have like a wonderful spouse. I have good family. I

wonderful spouse. I have good family. I

have a home, which like not many people get to say these days, right? And he's

like, and when I sit back and wonder like was it all worth it? I mean, I wouldn't replace any of it. Like I would I would not trade my life for any of it, but like there's other paths that are possible,

you know?

Yeah. So, it was really nice to hear that and kind of like affirm that like I'm fighting this fight for a reason.

Yeah. [laughter]

You know, similarly, there was a comment from my brother who I'm a little salty about this one, but basically he said one of his good friends had said, "I don't know if I want to get married because like I'm really really genuinely

happy with my life." And I think when he said that, my brother like really understood and felt that way.

And that's what I had been telling him for a while.

Oh. Oh, but someone else said it.

Someone else said it. And then so when I said that's that's like how I feel, too.

He was like, "Oh, okay. I get it now."

you know, now that another man has said it.

I mean, but still, he get he gets he understand you. That's important. [laughter]

you. That's important. [laughter]

Yeah. Yeah. That's important.

But like having the external like having external comments to kind of like say even though they were like previously criticizing you for the decisions that you're making um was was quite encouraging and I never thought I would hear those words from

either of those people.

So that's so cool.

Yeah. Yeah. It was really it was really healing. Um, and it's

healing. Um, and it's like you'd arrived to that on your own already.

Yes.

And were so solid in it, but to then have external forces also come in alignment with you in that and like actually understand was validating. You

didn't need them to make you feel secure, but like it's the it's like the icing on the cupcake.

Yeah. Yeah.

Wow.

And it's good because it's like it's like a different voice because when you're talking with your girlfriends who are going through similar things which are now dwindling in number, [laughter] we're still here.

We will be here. Don't worry. we we can be kind of an echo chamber to each other, but like also we're the only ones that get it.

Um, and so for like someone who has taken a completely different life road to acknowledge that is is quite nice.

Have you guys had any similar comments from outside people that are married that are guys or I don't know just different perspectives from about you being single in your late

20s, early 30s? Yeah, I think I actually had a conversation with a friend not too long ago and so I was telling him her about like this guy I was interested in

and she said completely unprompted and she's been married for like six years I think and she has a beautiful girl. She

was just like I love my husband. I love

my child. I wouldn't trade them for the world but I wish I messed around a lot more when I was single. So Emily, just do whatever you want [laughter] right now.

And boy, she took that assignment.

She was like, I give you my blessing.

She's just like, my marriage is great.

Having a kid is great, but this isn't this isn't the only path. And she was like, I I wish I dated more people before my husband.

And it was kind they they got married when she was 24, so she's fairly young.

Um I don't even think she's 30 yet, but Wow.

Yeah. But she was like, "Advice from a married woman. Go have fun [laughter]

married woman. Go have fun [laughter] while you still can because once you get married, this is your man forever."

Yeah. So I was like, "Oh, okay.

[laughter] Don't mind if I do.

Don't mind if I do. See you tomorrow."

[laughter] Yeah. So even just like hearing hearing

Yeah. So even just like hearing hearing that I think a lot of us expect for married women to be like, "This is so much better than when I was single." And

for a lot of women it is, which good for them. But if some are being honest,

them. But if some are being honest, maybe it's not. And maybe

I hear a lot of married women saying how much they like envy the single life and like they wish they could go back.

Yeah.

Or just they had like I don't know a separate timeline on like a different multiverse that they could just jump onto.

It's like everyone's in their own story.

They don't know what they want. and they

don't know what alternative they would want, but they just they can see the things that other people's stories are living out and they can see what's missing and then once again having to be content with what you have. But it is

encouraging. There's this lady um who is

encouraging. There's this lady um who is at my church and she's older and I think it's different when it's like people around our age that are married that are more similar peers to us, but she's one

generation. So, she's 10 years older

generation. So, she's 10 years older than me and her kids are like seven to nine. and she was always like, I love

nine. and she was always like, I love that you get to live your life so fully right [clears throat] now. Go and live it. It's similar to what your friend was

it. It's similar to what your friend was saying. And I think it also is different

saying. And I think it also is different because I can I've seen her life and I've um babysat her kids and whatnot and can see how much I her mind is often scattered because she's pouring out

constantly for the little ones. Um and

so it's it's it's beautiful to like have I think multi-generational communities.

I feel like we don't have that much of that now.

Um, we often are in our like horizontal flat like friend groups that look like us or maybe are in slightly different life stages, but it was really refreshing for both her to hear all of

my stories and like have a dose of that and then for me to like kind of pour out and be aunties to her little girls.

It was just really beautiful. And I feel like multigenerational community structures don't really exist a lot in our society as it looks today but are actually very beneficial and it

helps you appreciate at least for me more what I have now knowing like that phase will come later. And then she was also just like thank god come watch my kids so I can go have date night and like have a break too and like be me

outside of being mom.

Um so yeah I think about that a lot too now with like multigeneration the value of that and how much that's missing. I

think there's so much wisdom that's lost in both directions.

Yeah, I love that.

Mhm.

Yeah. It You guys have you guys seen Inside Out? You know,

Inside Out? You know, I love Inside Out.

Bing Bong.

Yeah.

It they kind of represent Bing Bong.

They're just like they'll go with you this far and then they're like, "Go [laughter] live your life."

And you're just like, "Bye, Bing Bong."

[laughter] I think like single life in your 30s is it's so fun because it's lit. You have money, but you still

it's lit. You have money, but you still have like a child brain. So, you're

like, I want this trinket. Oh, I could buy it. [laughter]

buy it. [laughter] No, you have money and you have permission to be a child because you have you are giving yourself permission because you don't care what anyone else thinks. And then and then you have

thinks. And then and then you have confidence and experience in the world so that you're not just going to like fall off a cliff doing it either. You

know, you can like see danger coming and you like have the judgment to know when to calculate like, okay, this is a fine risk to take or like maybe I shouldn't do that. Whereas like in your early 20s,

do that. Whereas like in your early 20s, you just like have no idea what you're doing period. But you have to act like

doing period. But you have to act like you know what you're doing.

Yeah.

You know.

Yeah.

The freedom is great right now.

Yeah.

The freedom.

The freedom is really great. Like

planning trips. I'm like great, let's book it. And then all my Americans were

book it. And then all my Americans were like, "Let me go ask my husband [laughter] what our schedules are going to be like." And I'm like, "That's how you look." And I'm going to have to ask right now. I'm like, "Okay, you let me know." [laughter]

Yeah. Yeah.

If you're free or not.

Clutching your pearls. Let me go ask my husband. [laughter]

husband. [laughter] Let's see if we're going to travel. you.

Everyone has that guy that they would have married in their early 20s that you would have been married now for many years, probably with some children, maybe. Would you marry them knowing what

maybe. Would you marry them knowing what you know now?

When I was 21, I was in love with this 30-year-old guy. [laughter]

30-year-old guy. [laughter] He Nothing ever happened. And I was like always mad that he never made a move cuz I was like very very like it was very apparent. I made it very clear that I

apparent. I made it very clear that I was into him, but he never I saw this guy, right?

What?

Yeah. Yeah, you saw him. I brought

Maddie to church so she could see him.

He's so cute. But he was 30 and of course like like good for him for not like approaching me because he's 30 and that's really weird. Um but [laughter]

I don't know cuz like I really liked him and I feel like if he did make a move maybe I would have gotten married. Maybe

I would have married to him, but I I would know it's at the expense of everything that I've wanted to do and then I would just have to like settle for this lifestyle. I wouldn't settle

for the guy, but I would settle for the lifestyle. I don't know cuz he never did

lifestyle. I don't know cuz he never did it. I don't know.

it. I don't know.

Thought he had morals, but if I had the chance, I probably would have said yes, which is scary to think about. So,

yeah, rejection is just redirection.

So true. [laughter]

How about you?

No. No, man. [laughter]

I really thought I really thought I was going to marry this guy during then you thought you were going to marry them. Yeah.

And you would have. But now if you had to go back knowing what you know now, you're basically saying no.

Well, no, I didn't.

It's different.

Knowing with 30-year-old brain.

Yeah.

Go back to 21. Go back to 20 whatever 19 22.

Yeah. It's a no.

No. I would have left that relationship like three years earlier.

Oh. and then like fit in a couple more, you know? [laughter]

you know? [laughter] I'm just saying. I like that. You have

to make your friend proud.

Yeah, you have to make my friend proud.

I got to make her proud. [laughter]

Yeah, I don't regret the relationship, but um and we were young, so Okay, what about what about some of the other ones?

Just kidding. She's stirring the pot.

[laughter] I feel like I want to know. When we were 21, we were told that every every date is a potential mate. So like dating was very intentional.

Ring by spring.

Yeah. Like every single boy you date, you're like, "This could be my husband."

[clears throat] So it was just like a lot of pressure. And I wish I could go back to 21. That's a thing in the knowing like, "Oh, maybe maybe this isn't doesn't have to be as serious."

Date for marriage, they used to say.

Yeah. I mean, they're still saying it.

Yeah, that's true. [laughter]

Would you marry your 21-year-old boyfriend? Your

boyfriend when you were 21. [laughter]

My 21-year-old boyfriend.

Um, I think at the time I would have knowing what you know now.

Knowing what I know now. Oh,

go back to the time. And he's follow he's like, "Jen, I want you to be my wife. Be the mother of my children."

wife. Be the mother of my children."

Okay. But I can't think of the person because if I think of the person, then my answer might be different. So just

think of the person they're including.

No, no, the thing is the thing is I think I see the cost so much more clearly now.

Yeah. Who?

Yeah. So it's like the multiverse strands, right? Like we

love the multiverse concept right now in media. And like my I'm in my one strand

media. And like my I'm in my one strand right here sitting right now. And I used to think that that other strand, the version of myself would have been closer in proximity to like what I am now. But

I'm now seeing like I would have been a completely different person.

Mhm.

And I would have given so much and like probably just fit into his world and you would have done so good at it.

And I would have probably been happy.

Like I really feel confident that I would have been happy and fulfilled. But

there would be so many parts and dimensions of myself that would have just been dormant probably for most of my life. Never awakened.

my life. Never awakened.

Oh. So

and that's that. So I mourn for that if I would have chosen him.

Yeah. Strand one, which is current Jen, which is 30 plus year old Jen who has had time to discover herself and like pour into her interest.

She just got piercings.

I did.

She got two piercings.

Would I have a second piercing if I MARRIED THIS MAN?

PROBABLY NOT. [laughter]

I MOURN. I MOURN. You're a second old woman.

I wouldn't have.

Yeah. Really?

Who would that other Jen have been? The

one that got married. The one that had kids.

I would have given so much. I just know.

M I I would have lost yourself. [laughter]

lost yourself. [laughter] Yeah, I can see it so clearly.

You would be happy or you would convince yourself you were happy.

Yeah, I would be happy. I would. But the

thing is like I would be happy not knowing what else it could be. It's like you're eating freaking like frozen hash browns when you could be eating like McDonald's fries on the beach. You know what I

mean? Instead of eating your frozen hash

mean? Instead of eating your frozen hash browns in suburbia [laughter] from a plastic bag from Walmart.

Yeah. Really? No. Really? [laughter]

But I would have been like, "These taste great.

Love them." Because you wouldn't know anything.

I don't know. Yeah. Like it's like you can't I wouldn't have like longed for something I wouldn't have ever known.

Yeah. That's just like the cost of a decision.

Discovered the dormant parts of myself.

Yeah.

Yeah.

So that's tragic to think about cuz when you're in when I was when I'd be in one strand, I wouldn't know. But now that I can zoom out and probably see it a little bit more clearly, I'm like, "Oh my god."

Yeah.

Yeah. I can see it more clearly.

Mhm.

So, McDonald's on the beach right [laughter] now, all day.

Yeah. Come home whenever I want to.

Do you guys still feel any residual pressure to get married from like parents?

From my ovaries.

From your internal Yeah. Internal

pressure. I feel that.

I do.

Cuz they say geriatric pregnancy is around like 35. If you have your first kid at 35, that's a geriatric pregnancy.

And that's coming soon.

Geriatric means old. Um, and so like our eggs are getting dusty and like I feel I feel here. I'm just like if I do want a

feel here. I'm just like if I do want a healthy kit, I got to get on it.

I feel my ovary sacks expiring.

Yeah.

Like I really feel it.

Yeah. And like there's like egg freezing and stuff, but like if your company doesn't pay for it, it's like really expensive.

Um Yeah. So that's just biologically that's like something to think about that.

Yeah.

And I'm so bitter that men don't have to deal with that.

They can have kids when they're 45.

still turning out children.

I know.

I think about it. Most when people ask me, "How many kids do you want?"

I used to say, "Oh, I'd probably want like two or three." Now I'm like, "Yo, whatever time we got, like [laughter] if I get a kid, I get a kid."

Depends on when I get married.

Having a kid is a status symbol now.

Like, I can afford this.

Yeah.

Yeah. So, there's that that the internal pressure. There's also

pressure. There's also my mom external pressure. My mom is like my only external [laughter] pressure and that that you listen to.

I argue with her.

Um cuz of course she just wants me to be happy but at the same time she's just like you need you need a companion. She says she's like Emily you don't have the gift of singleness. [laughter] She's like Emily

singleness. [laughter] She's like Emily you can't be alone.

And I trust that because my mom knows me so well. But I'm just like mom a man

so well. But I'm just like mom a man won't fix my problems. if anything, he'll give me more problems. But she's like, "But it's character building." I'm

like, "This life is character building.

[laughter] I don't want this accelerated program." But it's something I still do

program." But it's something I still do hope for. Like, of course, I still hope

hope for. Like, of course, I still hope to get married.

It's still something like I see in my timeline. I just don't know where it's going to be.

Yeah.

Um like it might be at 50.

I'm not like opposed 100% to marriage at all.

Yeah.

But but it just Yeah. It's like these are LIKE I NEED A DAD AND then my mom's like you need a husband. You need a companion.

Yeah.

Are you praying for him? [laughter]

The thoughts and prayers always looking for him. You should get on the apps. I'm

for him. You should get on the apps. I'm

like mother the apps are just trash.

What about you Mads? Do you any external pressure?

Yeah, if there are I'm not listening to them so they don't they don't register.

Um h well there is a reality to and like it's necessary to acknowledge that I think life as a single woman can be really difficult at times just because

like women are set back in society and so I know and can feel how much easier it would be to have like a life partner.

Yeah.

Um I could just like worry about so many less things in terms of like safety and like peace of mind and and things like that and like car stuff. cars are lifting. Oh my god,

car stuff. cars are lifting. Oh my god, lifting a heavy thing. Please,

you had to drill holes into our She is my man walls for curtain rods the other day.

The number I was there with the drill and we were like, I don't know what to do. Like we

must call Emily. Emily reaches high things for me. She lifts heavy things for me. She drills holes for me. She

for me. She drills holes for me. She

knows how to do car stuff. Talk about

hydraulics, you know, like No, but she [laughter] was my dad taught me. Yeah.

But there are so many things that I know would make life having a man would make so many life things easier. Um

Yeah, it really would.

Yeah. So that would be really nice. But

then as a result uh in defiance, [laughter] we are always just like so we have a pact, right?

Like we will take care of each other, right?

Yeah. And we have we have taken care [laughter] of each other like if we're sick like people will bring soup, we'll bring soup for each other. We'll rub each other's heads. We give each other massages all

heads. We give each other massages all the time.

Every night. Like last night, we gave I gave her Wait.

A butt massage.

Yeah, I [laughter] gave her a butt massage.

So wrong.

The glute a glute massage.

Yeah.

Women taking care of each other.

It's so sweet. So sweet having like woman care and love.

Yes.

It's so nice. I heard somewhere and it's probably Tik Tok that when you're looking for a partner, you're actually looking for your parent.

Yeah.

Like men are looking for a mom and women are looking for a dad.

A little Freudian, [laughter] but if I examine myself, I'm like, "Yeah, yeah, I want someone kind of like my dad." like someone who knows me and

my dad." like someone who knows me and like laughs with me and knows my humor and protects me and tells me if you're out of money, just ask.

[laughter] [gasps] I'm out.

Yeah, my wallet's empty.

Yeah. Every time I go, my dad drops me off from the airport. He hands me $300.

I'm like, that's so nice. No, she she she pulled me aside the other day on our walk. She

goes, "My dad didn't give me any money this time." [laughter]

this time." [laughter] No, he gave me $30. And I was like, "Wow, this is like 10% of what I usually get."

get." He dropped a zero. [laughter]

He's always like, "Do you need cash?"

She opens his wallet. He's like, "I'll give you $30." AND I WAS LIKE, "OH, THANKS."

THANKS." Oh my god.

A man's love is different from a woman's love.

It's different.

It's very practical, functional.

It's really simple and nice. You know,

it is simple and nice.

Yeah.

I love It's straightforward.

Yeah.

Being loved by a man is very different than being loved by a woman. And it it is nice.

Balance.

It's balance.

Balance. Yes. Harmony.

Yeah.

Yes. We need both. So like the desire can exist. [laughter]

can exist. [laughter] The desire can exist while finding contentment in the present. True

contentment.

Yeah. Yeah.

I just I love this life right now.

It's so great. It's really great.

Yeah.

It's a It's rare. It's It's rare for people to experience, I think.

Yeah.

I I just wish that when I was 25, I had someone to tell me like, "Yes, it's okay. Like there is no timeline and

it's okay. Like there is no timeline and you're going to be okay. So just live your life and it gets better. It gets so much better.

Yeah.

I think being single in your 30s without real true female friendships though is probably it's lonely much much much much much different.

Yeah.

So, I think like cultivating deep true friendship is essential for this season to be so sweet and for this time to be so sweet cuz otherwise it it would be way it would be unbearable,

you know. I agree. I agree.

you know. I agree. I agree.

Like I can imagine having to do all of this and have not having any of this.

So, your advice to your 25-year-old self would be build a female commune [laughter] and then maybe date a little bit. maybe

did a little did casually. Whatever. [laughter]

casually. Whatever. [laughter]

It's so true. Like having good solid female friendships makes all the difference cuz they'll make sure that you don't accept a man that sucks, too.

It's true.

It's true.

It's true.

If you have If you have to hide a guy from the girl, you already know. You

already know he's not the one.

Guilty. [laughter]

Guilty. He reeks of poop and they can smell it. [laughter]

smell it. [laughter] This episode was obviously aimed toward our single girlies. We love you. We see

you. We are you. And um we're here for you. And so if you have any stories, if

you. And so if you have any stories, if you have any questions, please leave a comment in the comments section.

Subscribe to us on YouTube. Follow us on Instagram. The hot pursuit pod.

Instagram. The hot pursuit pod.

Yeah, that on Instagram and Tik Tok and wherever you get your podcasts. We

love you. We see you. If you have any wos that we didn't hit, drop them in the comments. If you disagree with us and

comments. If you disagree with us and you think we're totally off base, let us know.

Share with us what your mom says. Share

with us what your church says.

[laughter] Just kidding. Don't you don't have to.

Just kidding. Don't you don't have to.

And thank you for joining us for this conversation. And with that, hot pursuit

conversation. And with that, hot pursuit out.

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