Peak Bloat - The Last Patch Tuesday of 2025

It's time for Windows Weekly. Paul

Therat and Richard Campbell are in Malver, PA in a Microsoft uh satellite office there to do the special show today. They're in the same room with

today. They're in the same room with some uh a little something extra to celebrate the holidays. We'll talk about that at the end of the show. It's also

the final patch Tuesday of 2025, and there are a lot of updates, plus the good things about AI and the bad things about AI. And where are those Xbox Black

about AI. And where are those Xbox Black Friday specials? All that and more

Friday specials? All that and more coming up next on Windows Weekly.

>> Podcasts you love >> from people you trust.

>> This is Twit.

>> This is Windows Weekly with Paul Farat and Richard Campbell. Episode 962.

Recorded Wednesday, December 10th, 2025.

Peak bloat. It's time for Windows Weekly. Hello you winners and you

Weekly. Hello you winners and you dozers. Ladies and gentlemen, I give you

dozers. Ladies and gentlemen, I give you for your delectation in this holiday season. They're in the same room.

season. They're in the same room.

>> Yeah.

>> Hard to believe >> the call is coming from inside the house.

>> It's inside the house.

>> It's inside the Microsoft office.

Anyway, >> you're Are you in?

>> It's my camera. Yeah. No, we're we're in Malver, Pennsylvania, and we're in one of the big Microsoft meeting rooms. They've lent it to us.

>> That's nice of them. Uh so we can do this and then after this I'm going to do a net rocks live >> tomorrow's coming in and we've got a couple hundred people showing up and uh

the topic is the future of software in the back of the room and be like >> not going to stream it live soon >> but you will offer it next week on net rocks or for the Christmas >> yeah next week. Next one.

>> By the way, that is Richard Campbell often rocks and runners.com.

And to his right, my left, your upside down, Mr. Paul Thorat of theat.com.

>> So subjective.

>> He's not in the upside down.

>> He should be though.

>> You could be cuz that wall is so green and >> it's very neutral. Kind of

>> corporate green.

>> It's like an institutional color, isn't it?

>> Yeah. Is it is it green or is it just the uh shading or is it white?

>> Yeah, there's it's kind of a greenish blue.

>> Yeah, there's a little greeny bit.

>> Yeah. Okay. So, we're gonna try name it.

>> Yeah.

>> Yeah.

>> Uh well, you know what the color of the year is according to the great folks at Pantone.

>> M >> white.

>> It's It's a white, isn't it? Yeah.

>> They call it like it's all colors.

>> Yeah. They have a name, but it's >> this year.

>> Yeah.

>> It's not that orange color from the iPhone.

>> Yeah.

Somehow, no. I don't know how that happened.

>> But anyway, uh this that is not the color of your wall. It is last year's panone color of the year. It is not.

>> Although the one we're facing is that orange color.

>> Yeah. Some kind of orange.

>> Is it orange? Wow. That's interesting.

>> There's the other wall. It's a color wall across from us here.

>> Wait a minute. I take it back. The color

of the year 2025 is Mocha Moose. Oh,

that is not >> Mocha Moose.

>> Mocha moose.

>> Oh my god.

>> That's unfortunate. Oh, that's not fortunate at all.

>> Yeah, >> I thought it was a white. Somebody told

me it was >> mocha that's been put in a blender.

>> Well, maybe maybe this is 2025 in 2026 cuz Cloud Dancer is the color of the year for 2025 for so they give it the year coming. It's like a car company.

year coming. It's like a car company.

>> So, the color of the year 2026 is Cloud Dancer, which is a lot better than what we might call poop brown. All right,

enough of that silliness. Let us do a show, gentlemen. Let us talk about

show, gentlemen. Let us talk about Windows.

>> It's the most wonderful time of the year.

>> It's Tuesday and I've been I've been patched and so have you.

>> Yeah, you noticed.

>> Oh, no. I I I could tell when you're updating computers, you curse a bunch.

>> I've I've I've had a few days in the Throat household. It's been very

Throat household. It's been very enjoyable. But you can tell

enjoyable. But you can tell >> you can tell when when Paul's working.

He's got four or five laptops going at once and they're there are angry noises.

>> You've learned your lesson. Wow.

>> It's uh it's that one time of the week I kind of move around a lot, >> you know, kind of >> touching walls. Are there holes in the walls? Oh, wow. Sorry.

walls? Oh, wow. Sorry.

>> There are holes in the walls.

>> Something's something's gone terribly wrong.

>> There we go.

>> Oh, no. No. Okay, we're going back.

Uh, so f fellas, uh, as you say in your show notes, it's the big one. Elizabeth,

>> what is that? What is I know it's a reference to.

>> It's a Sanford and Sun reference.

>> Yes, Red Fox.

>> Um, >> by the way, he did eventually have a heart attack.

>> And because he >> because he had been joking around for so many years, nobody believed.

>> They thought he was joking.

>> He was the boy that cried wolf.

>> The boy that cried Elizabeth. Yeah,

>> that's kind of sad.

>> It is sad.

>> So, what So, are you saying if it's are you is it really a big one like a lot of change?

>> It is a big one.

>> Okay.

>> Yeah. Maybe it's not the big one, but it's >> it's in the top half, I would say, for 2025.

>> Well, I mean, it's been it's been a big year for updates. Um,

>> it really has. I mean, you keep I keep thinking it's going to slow down and every month they surprise me. So,

>> then next month will be slower cuz it's going to be, you know, the holiday season. That's the theory. But then

season. That's the theory. But then

again, >> they haven't even said as much, haven't they?

>> I guess we'll find out because I >> Well, we'll talk about this in a moment.

Well, because there's some insider stuff, too. So,

stuff, too. So, >> but yeah. So,

if you remember last week, we were talking about what was the week D update, which went out in week A of the next month because of timing and

holidays, whatever. So, this is

holidays, whatever. So, this is essentially that.

Um, the big one that people will notice is I'm seeing take out one of these earbuds because this is driving me crazy hearing my echo. Um,

is the file explorer dark mode stuff has been improved dramatically. So, file

explorer has had dark mode for a while, but now what they have is dark mode in the file copy progress, the about or the

properties box, whatever, etc. the sub the sub windows essentially. If you did install a preview update, you might have noticed what we lovingly call a flashbang.

>> Yeah.

>> Which is um you bring up a dark mode window for the first time and it flashes white and then goes dark.

>> It's awesome at night when that happens.

>> Yeah. Yeah. If you if your eyeballs were working well before, they are not now.

Uh but they did fix that.

Uh so that's good. So that seems good.

Um and then this has the streamlined context menus. Actually, I want to see

context menus. Actually, I want to see I'm just going to look at that now myself because I haven't seen that yet.

But no, that's not >> Yeah, I'm not looking. It's like some good content here. But

>> is it streamlined?

>> That's what I'm looking for. Yeah. No,

it is. Okay.

>> Okay.

>> So, you know, in the sense that they have an open with menu. There's an AI actions menu.

>> First, there's always been a menu. And

then a lot of these things that used to have individual items are now sub menus.

So, one drive has sub menus, which may have been there already actually, but photos does as well. So, edit with photos, create with the designer, etc. if you have an image. So,

>> progress.

>> Uh, you said progress, not perfect, right?

>> Yeah. I just I didn't say I didn't talk about perfect. I just said progress.

about perfect. I just said progress.

>> Oh, good. Okay, that's good. Um, if you have an a C-pilot Plus PC, a bunch of updates in here. So, AI agent and settings, uh, click to do, Windows Studio Effects, which is the external

camera deal, the what I'm call going to call semantic search, but Windows search, all have been improved in various ways. And do any of these things

various ways. And do any of these things actually have dependencies on the hardware of a copi plus PC? Like are

they using the the >> Yeah, they're every one of them is using a local AI model and or the MPU.

>> Okay.

>> Yeah.

>> So now do they have to >> the fact that this thing the Studio 2 has an MPU but doesn't qualify as a copilot plus PC means I don't get anything.

>> That's right.

>> Right. So, I would imagine on your PC, even though it should work, they're not going to let you use an external USB webcam or whatever the exter like the rear if you had a rear camera, which you might actually in your

>> um they won't let you. They probably

won't let you use that uh Windows Studio effect on those cameras, but your your >> computer could absolutely handle that.

That's >> me and my Nvidia 4060.

>> Yeah, >> right. You can feel the heat coming off

>> right. You can feel the heat coming off this thing right now. Put your hand right there.

>> Microsoft AI has no idea that exists.

Doesn't exist at all. a 4060 in my laptop burns my fingers. Can't use it.

>> Yep. Um and then you know for the normal people that don't have Copilot plus PCs bunch of stuff just across you know widgets which is by the way it's going to look awesome. I don't think I have it on this computer. Actually I do. So

Richie can see it but you can't see it but the they've changed the widget board pretty dramatically. And now honestly

pretty dramatically. And now honestly it's I think what people thought this was always going to be >> which was widgets and not not >> not the stupid discover feed which is

still there but >> um it's actually a little a little hidden which I like. So that's nice.

>> And then just small things across taskbar window share because you know it's been another month we have to keep changing that. Uh the full screen

changing that. Uh the full screen experience for Xbox is available on all our computers and anyone can install it soon. Um some other things. So, it's

soon. Um some other things. So, it's

it's a bunch of stuff. And actually, and now that I'm thinking about it, I kind of want to look at this system. So, I I should have I do not have Never mind. All right. Oh,

no, I do. Yeah. So, if you um one way to know if you're up to date is you'll have an advanced page in settings under system.

>> And this stuff used to be around all over the place. Like the developer stuff is in here. So, like developer mode of using Visual Studio with modern apps, etc. But this is a good thing for a lot of people to go in and look at

because there are things that I find to be really useful that you can enable in here. So, for example, when you do a

here. So, for example, when you do a jump list on um an item that's on the taskbar, right? So, you right click

taskbar, right? So, you right click essentially, you can add the end task item to it, which is a way to crash an app without having to go into task manager.

>> Nice.

>> Yeah, it's and where it does the same.

It works the same way. It's really nice.

Uh but the virtual workspace stuff is new uh in this build and that's where you get things like HyperV sandbox etc if you have those if you have support for that. Um but everyone everyone

for that. Um but everyone everyone listening to this show check to see if you have this and look wait for it to happen if you don't but but check out the options in here. This is worth looking at.

>> The advanced stuff is worth looking at.

>> Yeah pseudo you can enable pseudo.

>> Turn on pseudo make your machine potentially more vulnerable but you get to do what the cool Linux kids do. Well,

I actually think it's better to use pseudo than to have an admin terminal window, right? I mean, everything is

window, right? I mean, everything is admin that way. This way you can just >> when you just escalate when you >> if only there was some operating system that invented this before Windows had it. It's hard to say.

it. It's hard to say.

>> You're going crazy.

>> That would have been nice.

>> Um, so this is a big one. This is this is a big one.

>> So there's that.

>> Yeah. Now, as a potential preview for what patch Tuesday might look like in January, let me think about that. Yeah. Um, we

just got a new Devon beta builds through the Windows Insider program. Um, 25H2

and there are some big things in here as well, right? So, the first public

well, right? So, the first public preview of MCP support, which Microsoft technically announced it Ignite, but said was coming at Build right back in May.

>> Yeah. So now it's starting to occur and this is where you can connect different AIs to different I'm going to call them apps for lack of a better term but it's basically a connection between apps and

AI that standardized. We'll talk a little bit more about that in a bit but um that's starting to roll out. Um a

good improvement to quick machine recovery. I think we had mentioned

recovery. I think we had mentioned before that it won't go into an endless loop now like it used to. So that's

there, but also it's automatically enabled now if you have a pro or above um on a non-domain joined computer. So

like an like a normal person or whatever a person an individual um something Microsoft also announced at Ignite uh called this is because we need new acronyms unified update orchestration

platform >> and this is a way for more updates to go through Windows update rather than through the store or through some backend of whatever kind

that someone might have maybe if you wouldn't get it an app and they have their own updating system whatever they're going to allow more and more apps to use Windows update for apps update So, fantastic. And then for you

people still living with an Atari ST, uh, Windows MIDI services is finally there with full support for the MIDI 2.0 standard. I

standard. I >> Wow.

>> I bet this hasn't been updated in 25 years or more.

>> No, no. There's been some updates to it.

You can get USB to MIDI interfaces.

>> Okay. All right. Well, that's that was 25 years ago. I don't know. So, uh, so that's happening. Um,

that's happening. Um, and I think that's most of it. Yeah,

that's the most the important stuff. So,

that's that's what we can look at for next month, you know, for for people on stable or whatever.

>> Nice. All right. Good.

>> Now, the bad news.

>> Um, I know. So, the past year, we've gotten

I know. So, the past year, we've gotten price up price increases on Microsoft 365 for consumers, and they added the premium skew, remember, which has more AI stuff in it basically.

But like family that was is for six people but only the the account owner gets all the AI stuff and there's no way to manage that. I'm hoping that changes.

At Ignite they announced a bunch of new AI features and really kind of confused the matter frankly um for people that are not paying for copilot for Microsoft 365 or Microsoft

365 copilot. So the main office apps are

365 copilot. So the main office apps are getting a chat interface and you get some form of AI interaction without having to pay for it essentially is how that works. That's cool. You're

that works. That's cool. You're

thinking, "Oh, Microsoft's giving me something for free." But they're not. So

in July 2026, they're going to raise the price of virtually every Microsoft 365 commercial skew. So I think there's two

commercial skew. So I think there's two exceptions.

Um there I shouldn't be totally cynical about this. They're I I don't understand

about this. They're I I don't understand this.

>> I don't know why you're not going to be totally cynical about this. The company

has been posting record profits every quarter for two straight years.

>> I don't see how that's related to this, Richard. Uh they need to raise prices,

Richard. Uh they need to raise prices, >> right? Well, but they're also laying off

>> right? Well, but they're also laying off people, so it's not like >> clearly that makes total sense. Like

this is a desperate time.

>> Yeah.

>> For somebody.

>> There's been some shuffling of feature sets where you used to have to have E5 for certain features, but now you can get them E3, etc. It's still confusing because they have some that are named Office 365. Yeah.

Office 365. Yeah.

>> And not Microsoft 365. The most

confusing, of course, is there's a Microsoft 365 E3 and also an Office 365 E3 because we're just screwing with you now. We have no idea what's going on.

now. We have no idea what's going on.

And I thought they were going to get rid of all the Office. I did too. Excuse.

It's just it's all Microsoft.

>> Yep.

>> All right. So, I'm I'm sure they're in some locked in some long-term contracts that were early customers before. The

the thing we're not seeing here too is that big companies get discounts on, you know for >> volume these numbers are just retail prices that don't exist.

>> Yeah.

>> Remember used to go to like Fries Electronics and buy a box of Windows Server and it was like a thousand bucks.

>> Yeah.

>> People don't buy things like that that way. Like that's not how you buy that.

way. Like that's not how you buy that.

>> And this is not how you buy this. But

>> but some of these depending on the skew, one of at least one of these is I think 33% higher than it was before per month.

And you got to remember on the commercial side, this is per user per month. So if you have a bigger

month. So if you have a bigger organization, this is big bucks if you >> Yeah. I mean, I don't only Yeah. You're

>> Yeah. I mean, I don't only Yeah. You're

up a dollar, you're up $2. Like

>> Yeah. But per user per month and that adds up. That's, you know,

adds up. That's, you know, >> I don't know if you know how math works, right?

>> I'm trying to figure it out, man. Trying

to keep up with you here.

>> This isn't compound interest. This is

basic basic math.

>> But yeah, know if you're sitting if you're sitting a couple of thousand seats, this is a bunch of money. But

it's also you're sitting a couple thousand seats, you can negotiate.

>> Exactly.

>> Yeah, that's true. That is true.

>> All you got to say really loudly is Google Workspace and see what the numbers look like.

>> And because this is Microsoft, this was announced as a u a giant benefit to users because they've added like three million new features to Microsoft 365 this year. Um most of which are based on

this year. Um most of which are based on AI, of course, right? And so I don't know. I

know. I >> Well, that's the other part is is like where are the where are the co-pilot pricing in all of this?

Well, that's an addition and that hasn't changed or at least not yet.

>> And so they're maintaining that >> street price so to speak of $30 per user per month on top of whatever these things are.

>> Right.

>> Should we still have to some debate as to how many people are actually paying that >> exactly? So they don't talk about that,

>> exactly? So they don't talk about that, but a lot of companies, you know, according to reports and so forth are paying half that amount or 20 bucks per, you know, whatever it might be.

>> Yeah. And there's been a lot of criticism, you know, of just how effective these tools are coming into the end of the year.

>> Yes.

>> So, there's that.

>> There's that.

>> But that won't affect individuals.

>> Okay.

>> And then is this actually the next story? I guess it is.

story? I guess it is.

>> Yeah. We should take an air break.

>> All right.

>> So, um, nice. Very nice.

>> Yeah.

>> Yeah.

>> You going to come back on screen, Leo?

I'm waiting to see how this goes. I'm

really excited about it.

>> That was like a That was like a burning magnet. reluctant to press that button.

magnet. reluctant to press that button.

>> Push the button, Leo. Push the button. I

don't want to see that.

>> Hey, they fixed it while you while I was awake away asleep.

We're going to have more in just a bit with your genial hosts Paul Therat and Richard Campbell. But first, let's take

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We thank them so much for their support of Windows Weekly and the lovely and talented Paul and Richard in Mal >> and our institutional background.

>> Melvin sounds like a Revolutionary War kind of a town.

>> You probably >> or the name of like a battleship.

>> Yeah.

>> From you know Galactica or something.

>> Melvin. We did drive past Valley Forge like >> Oh yeah. Well, there you go. There you

go.

>> And also by the Valley Forge Casino and >> and Yeah. Casino Resort.

restaurant. That's the Native Americans getting theirs back, by the way.

>> Oh, yeah. And I am going to do a little, you know, Pennsylvania history as part of the whiskey this week.

>> Oh, exciting. Now, does there a plaque on the wall of that meeting room that said George Washington slept here?

>> Yeah, pretty sure. No, no, but it's going to say Paul Thorat slept here cuz I'm exhausted.

>> Well, let's talk about AI. I think we've left that a little. First, I just want to mention that Keith Keith S512 missed the first 30 minutes of the show.

So, I'm just going to go back to the beginning. I don't want to start over

beginning. I don't want to start over for Keith. He just got here, huh? Oh,

for Keith. He just got here, huh? Oh,

>> I know. I don't know what's going on.

>> Yeah. For some reason, he says, "I thought it was Thursday."

>> Yeah.

>> Well, he is in the UK. It is a little confusing back there, you know, speaking of the Revolutionary War. Yes.

>> Yeah.

>> Time is an illusion. Lunchtime. Doubly

so.

>> Yes.

>> Right.

So AI.

>> Yes, AI. I don't know if you guys noticed this, but there's some companies who have been marketing this AI thing pretty hard this year.

>> No kidding.

>> And um I know it hasn't really it it hasn't really been in the news. I don't

think it doesn't doesn't cost that much, so it's not really impacting anything.

>> But the the big thing, and this is at least a year old now, is this aic AI thing, right? And I thought to myself,

thing, right? And I thought to myself, for all the marketing, for all of the hype, there's actually a bunch of stuff that does work well that is we would call AI

and it's none of it is agenic. Like none

of it, almost none of it. And so I thought maybe I could come up with just a quick list, you know, uh, of things that actually work like that like, you know, just so whether you're an AI

cheerleader or an II denier or somewhere in the middle, whatever it might be, you know, we can have this kind of middle ground where this is like where AI actually is making sense if that makes

sense. Um, first thing though I wanted

sense. Um, first thing though I wanted to say is I for weeks months maybe I've been talking about this thing. I didn't

know what to call it like the as we make apps in Windows or apps on your mobile device uh controllable by a accessible to AI.

I've been calling it programmatic like a programmatic app and I've compared it to the comm oa decom whatever stuff from the '90s. But the idea is that this

the '90s. But the idea is that this thing has public interfaces that you wouldn't see as a human being, but a service like an AI agent could access to get at features of those apps. We just

talked about the streamlining of the context menu and file expo. That's an

example of that type of thing where you uh basically publicize or publish, however you want to say it, individual features of apps that you can take like actions you can take on certain files.

So you right click a a document and you could say rewrite this with Word or whatever the capability is. Turns out

there is a term for this and I've heard it before even in this context. I just

didn't make the connection. I was

watching a an OpenAI podcast video about their browser uh Atlas chatb Atlas and they were talking about the semantic web and I thought that's it that's the term

it's semantic and semantic basically means in this context uh machine controllable and in the future we're probably going to have websites that will have two versions there'll be that public facing

version that you see with your eyes usually and interact with your hand or a mouse or whatever it is and then there's going to the semantic version which is the machine readable thing that AI agents will interact with instead of

scraping the screen which is really unsophisticated. And so I think we could

unsophisticated. And so I think we could apply that term to apps as well. I don't

I don't know that this is how people are describing this but if there is a semantic web I think we could argue there will be semantic apps as well and that we see the beginnings of that in in

Windows like I said like um I'll rightclick a uh an image and so you have AI actions is what we're calling them in Windows. So you can visual search with

Windows. So you can visual search with Bing, blur background with photos, erase objects with photos, remove background with paint. So those are kind of

with paint. So those are kind of semantic capabilities of the app. Now,

in this case, the app is going to run.

You're going to see it. You're going to interact with it, but this is how AI will buy things for you in the background and that kind of stuff. So I

just wanted to throw that out there as a as a term. So I asked Richard, I asked my wife, I asked Laurent just for some examples. I came up some on my own. And

examples. I came up some on my own. And

I think the best use cases, if you will, which it's features, right? AI is not a product, it's a feature, you know, um, generating summaries, right? And so, we

all know you can get summaries of an article you read on the web.

>> I just used Google to ask what did Washington do at Valley Forge? And he

gave me a nice summary of >> that's the second one. Wait, we're going to get to that.

>> Um, web-based articles, documents of all kinds. Obviously, those are obvious. My

kinds. Obviously, those are obvious. My

wife is saying that she gets uh Zoom meeting summaries and this is AI is just just good at that kind of thing and that's kind of cool.

And the meeting thing is interesting because whether you're using Teams or Zoom or whatever, it might be a meeting you were in, but it might also be a meeting you were not in and you might want to see what the summary is and then you might want to go listen to the key parts of it or whatever.

>> I'm also seeing now policies for some meetings where no AI are allowed >> and I was at Microsoft. I was on an MVP call. always curious.

call. always curious.

>> I just booted all your the the MVP note all of the AI note takers.

>> Okay.

>> I think they put out a summary so you don't need >> Oh, I see. Okay. Okay. Yeah. I think

summaries are this is just >> not universal, but I think it's it might be the most common use case.

>> Um and then the whole you ask a question, get an answer, which is what you just did, right? This is typically a Google search scenario.

>> When you think about it, not all times, but many times what you're looking for is the answer to some question. You

don't you're not looking for a list of links. You don't want choices.

links. You don't want choices.

>> You want the answer.

>> Yeah.

>> And I think that's >> when people say like chat GBT or something will take over for Google search. I think this is what they're

search. I think this is what they're talking about because >> And is Google doing it?

>> And Google Well, Google is now doing it too. Yes. Exactly.

too. Yes. Exactly.

>> So that's very interesting to me. My

wife had really like specific queries that she used that worked really well.

One of them was our daughter had to renew her license.

what is the best DMV to go to in Eastern Pennsylvania tomorrow morning.

>> Wow.

>> And it spit out this answer that explained where and why. And it was like, you know what, and it worked, by the way, worked great. She my she got in and out of this place.

>> It it worked great. Um you and the meeting thing as a follow on to the summary is here's the summary of the meeting. Maybe you weren't there, maybe

meeting. Maybe you weren't there, maybe you were. You can say, "Did my name come

you were. You can say, "Did my name come up?" Right? So, if you have an action

up?" Right? So, if you have an action item or you know, something to do from that meeting, you'll know like that's useful. Um, when we first moved into the

useful. Um, when we first moved into the house, we had this uh like a clog in the sewer under the house and this metal thing came out of it and the guy was like, I don't know.

He's like, this looks like it's from the 1800s or something.

>> That'd be baffled. It's

>> important to how do you search for that?

So, at the time, my son put it on Reddit and said, what is this?

>> We found out within 15 minutes. Sure.

>> Um and you can do that type of thing, right? Um with with AI, right? What is

right? Um with with AI, right? What is

this?

>> Yeah, I've done it all the time. I was

>> a picture feature now, right? Does that

really well?

>> I was walking down the street in our neighborhood >> and there were these things that look like snowshoes on the wires, >> right?

>> And I I don't And then I thought, oh, I could probably ask AI.

>> Exactly.

>> And it immediately said, oh, yeah, that's for a wire with a ball in the middle. What's

the ball?

>> What's that? Yeah. So actually that's number four is visual search. Every one

of us now well most of us now have a phone that will do some form of that.

You point it at a thing >> could be a business. It could be an object >> and say what is this thing?

>> And if it's a uh if it's an object you can then go and say well where do I buy it or if that's what you want to do you know um anyway we don't have to go through every one of these in detail but writing help everyone needs writing

help. This is going to be is everywhere

help. This is going to be is everywhere and will be everywhere. um automation

which I think is the this is the dark horse. This is the productivity scenario

horse. This is the productivity scenario I think is going to be a big deal next year which is we in the Microsoft space have had various ways to automate uh kind of workplace productivity scenarios

whatever but they require code they're complex normal people will never do them but now that we can talk we can kind of babble our way through this every time

Richard emails me I want an alert that kind of thing >> you might not know how to do that in the interface of your email application but you can fantastic that and this is just

a no-brainer. Um that kind of thing.

a no-brainer. Um that kind of thing.

>> It is there is this idea of a new UX just from >> Yes. And you know we all made fun of

>> Yes. And you know we all made fun of Sacha Nadella when he was he said you know I see co-pilot as the future start menu. We're like you know but but I hate

menu. We're like you know but but I hate to say it but he might be on to something because the the big difference between the everything I'm describing here and the other things we'll talk

about is that a lot of this is about intent. It's like you have some goal in

intent. It's like you have some goal in mind. In the past, you had to understand

mind. In the past, you had to understand how the commands worked in an app, maybe what the UI meant. You had to kind of master a tool and now you can just say, "Look, I just want to get this done.

Here's the thing I want, you know, and as the as it progresses, that will get more and more sophisticated. I It's

rather incredible." There was a time when you went to a computer to do a task. Now, you just go to the computer.

task. Now, you just go to the computer.

>> So, you're kind of reminding us like you could now be just focusing on the task.

>> I'm never going to talk to my computer, Richard. It's like, you know what?

Richard. It's like, you know what?

>> Give it a day. You are going to talk to computer. I mean, he knows I talk to my

computer. I mean, he knows I talk to my computer all day long.

>> Yeah. He's just not listening.

>> It's It's just mostly profane.

>> Yeah.

>> Uh I can't tell you how I've seen some of the conversations I have see people, especially developers, >> Yes.

>> with the bots, the coding generators as we're calling them these days.

>> Like they're really quite mean to them.

Like they it's an HR violation except it happens to be software.

>> It's okay. Well, that's okay then, right?

>> Take it out on the bot.

>> Yeah. I don't know. I think um that's interesting. There are different camps

interesting. There are different camps on this, by the way.

>> Yeah. On what

>> on whether you should whether you should be cursing at the software.

>> Yeah. Lisa routinely

>> when uh Amazon's Echo is talking or or Siri is talking says, "Shut the f up."

>> Right.

>> And uh >> see, I I relate to that. That's how I do not interrupt me.

>> Yeah. I'm I'm I'm working here. I'm busy

here. And so I yeah, I understand that and it is it is just software. But then

I've talked to parents and parents have you know some parents say, you know, we don't want kids to be rude in any fair circumstance. So I understand both

circumstance. So I understand both points.

>> Yeah. No, I I Yeah, I see both sides there.

>> I It's not in my nature to say mean things even to a neighbor.

>> Oh, it's in my nature.

>> No, I know that very well, Paul.

>> Um >> accessibility wise, um language translation and captioning are amazing.

Yeah.

>> Uh, doing those things live on the fly is amazing.

>> Astonishing.

>> Doing those things together is babbleish and that is amazing.

>> So, if you have like these headphones or with the Google thing or whatever, it doesn't matter and you can sit there and have a conversation with someone else where for them they're hearing in your voice their language and in for you

you're hearing in their voice your language. That's a that's magic.

language. That's a that's magic.

>> Yeah. Early this year I went to a wedding entirely in Dutch which I do not understand.

>> Right. But I turned on translate and it was doing it real time for him.

>> Yeah, 100%.

>> Just expect it to work. Really?

>> That's amazing. It's straight up amazing. It's amazing.

amazing. It's amazing.

>> Um, software development I think is the first obvious win for AI. Uh, not that it's perfect and that's not really the point, but this is also an important indication of what this relationship

really is between a developer and I, which is not that I tell the AI to make a game and walk away and I've made a game. You have to know what you're

game. You have to know what you're doing. You have to make sure you know

doing. You have to make sure you know someone is looking at the code. It's

helping them get something done. And I

to me this is just the difference between spending all day looking through Stack Overflow answers to questions and just getting the job done and moving on to the next thing, >> you know. So to me that's a win

>> and and certain personalities and I know a few of them can have six, seven, eight of these running simultaneously on a project like >> and because it will come back later with some big part of it. Yes.

>> Yep.

>> Yeah. It's it it's changing. It is a new way to approach software development.

It's not the only way and it's certainly not set but we're starting to see this emerge.

>> Fundamentally to me AI is about making or saving you time, saving you money >> or saving you both.

>> Mhm.

>> And if you think about a developer 30 years ago, 35 years ago, they would go to a bookstore, buy a big book, and they have this reference and that they would slowly ponderously find answers to questions that hopefully correct. The

internet happened. It became faster, but we're still looking scrolling through list of blue links in and out, in and out, trying to find the answer. This is

this is the next step. It's I don't mean to say it's perfect, but it's a faster way to get to the same place.

>> That's the point. Saving you time, which saves you money.

>> I use it all the time. I use it all >> all the time. This is transformative.

>> You know, just mentioning AI, we have coming up on the next show, intelligent machines, a very interesting guest.

Uh he jailbreaks AI. He does it uh both for companies and for fun >> and has become his base >> pen tester.

>> Yeah, kind of ply. Uh and he uh uh Steve Gibson talked about him.

>> Redeemers. Yeah,

>> redeemers.

>> Yeah, Steve Gibson talked about him a few months ago. Basically, the premise was there is no >> AI known that cannot be jailbroken and then

>> asked for, you know, illicit things or whatever. It's just impossible.

whatever. It's just impossible.

>> Taken off track anyway.

>> Yeah, it's impossible.

>> So, uh he because of his kind of interesting sideline, he will be uh hidden and will use a voice changer.

>> I love it. Oh, that's right. Like a like an old 60 Minutes interview.

>> Yeah. Yeah. So,

>> Jim is alive. He's living in Paris.

>> So, I think I don't know. I It's going to be very interesting. Uh that's I just want to put a little plug in for that because you're not going to want to miss it if you're interested in >> in all this. And it is a relevant topic

because um >> the whole idea of AI safety might be >> bogus to be honest.

>> Well, or it's so different from traditional technology security that requires a new way of thinking.

>> Yeah. Right.

>> You know, >> most of the best pen testers I know can break into pretty much any system no matter how hard you try.

>> Exactly. Really the question is what happens after that, >> right?

>> Yeah.

>> So, so Plenty the Prompter will be >> Plenny the Prompter.

>> Plenty Plenty the Liberator he calls himself sometimes. I love it.

himself sometimes. I love it.

>> Uh he'll be our guest coming up in about an hour and a half on intelligent machines. Yeah, it's going to be

machines. Yeah, it's going to be interesting. I'm sorry. I didn't I

interesting. I'm sorry. I didn't I didn't mean to continue on.

>> Completely relevant. Um, so questions and answers, but there's also this the next step like more advanced kind of researchbased queries, I guess, for lack

of a better term. Um, a lot of this stuff is oneoff. This is the thing I talk about a lot where I'm saying once a year I have to make this chart. I don't

want to master Excel. Just want to make the chart, you know, or I'm going to go to Paris for a week. It's the only time I'm ever going. I want to make sure I don't miss anything, but I don't I don't have to become an

expert in Paris. I just want to, you know, get the get the trip, you know, figured out. Um, education, learning,

figured out. Um, education, learning, white paper, however you want, whatever you want to think of this as. This is

often this is the one thing that edges into this agenic area where something might go off for a while, do that deep thinking thing or whatever and come back and maybe you have an interaction over time or or maybe you know doing

something like um I want to get surround sound speakers for my living room. This

is the system I have now. This is what I'm looking for.

I'm only going to buy this thing once.

Then I'm going to be done forever. You

know, I don't have to become an expert in standards of, you know, how sound works or whatever. like I just I just want to do it the one time then I'm going to make this purchase and I'm going to be done forever. You know that

kind of thing. So it's re research for lack of a better term. And then um this is like a this is a semi-controversial because people think about it in terms

of AI is making music or making poems or making books or making movies or whatever it might be. but not that type of entertainment, but rather >> you're a Spotify user and there are AI

based playlists, you know, based on your likes or something. Um, you play online multiplayer games like I do and it can create maps or loces or >> um I guess Alexa this week turned on a

feature for Prime Video where you can say just talk to it. Go to that place in the video. You're watching Jurassic

the video. You're watching Jurassic Park. Go to the part where the

Park. Go to the part where the Tyrannosaurus is attacking the Ford Explorer, right? which is a wonderful

Explorer, right? which is a wonderful natural language way to interact with something. It's has nothing to do with

something. It's has nothing to do with the way we've ever navigated through a movie before at all, >> you know.

>> Does that work? You can do that.

>> Yeah, it just came out. This is a new thing. I've not used it, but

thing. I've not used it, but >> Wow.

>> So, there's probably a lot more, but I'm trying to I'm trying to separate the hype from the reality, right? This

notion that agents are going to go do things on your behalf is mostly science fiction today. It doesn't mean it

fiction today. It doesn't mean it doesn't happen literally, but some people are starting to do this kind of things, but uh but this is all they talk about and this is not what most people's

experiences are. But I just listed I

experiences are. But I just listed I don't know how many there was, 10 or more. That stuff's all real. It's

more. That stuff's all real. It's

happening right now. It's you can all get this right now. It's free basically for everybody. Um and it's real, you

for everybody. Um and it's real, you know. So, and again, there are these

know. So, and again, there are these extremes with AI and I get it. But if

you kind of land in the middle somewhere, this is I think where we're at. And it's pretty good, by the way.

at. And it's pretty good, by the way.

Right. That's a good set of stuff. I

think >> I Gemini has blown me away. The new

Gemini 3.0 is >> same.

>> And I use it >> totally for granted now that you can take a photo of any of anything and your phone will tell you what's in the picture.

>> Yeah.

>> The uh it's amazing.

>> It's so good. You've forgotten it was impossible.

>> You forgot you can two seconds ago. I

mean the image that I used for the that article which Richard I can see here >> looks like a photograph it's not. It was

generated by Gemini.

>> Mhm.

>> And um you know I've been generating images for a couple years now. Two and a half years almost three years. And most

of them are pretty cartoony. You can

tell they're >> they're generated.

>> You can often tell they're generated.

>> Um >> this one. No.

>> This one not so much.

>> It's getting harder.

>> This one.

>> No.

>> Which article?

>> Uh no. It's the a when AI works.

>> Oh, okay. I'll find it.

>> It looks like a like a photo from an ad.

>> Y >> We used to say, "Oh, yeah. You can

always tell." No.

>> Nope.

>> You can't tell.

>> Tough. Yeah.

>> No.

>> No.

>> Oh, yeah. This does look like uh >> It looks like a photo.

>> Looks like a Microsoft ad.

>> Yeah. Yeah, it does. I didn't mean that, but yeah, it does.

>> The only thing that's wrong on it is that the uh text is not backwards. He's

looking through it. reading through a screen >> and it says AI optimization complete but you can read it. It should be backwards but you could easily fix that with just a secondary prompt saying can you

>> you know mirror image that text and it would do it perfectly.

>> I just think it's look at the shortened amount of time we've had this stuff it's a it's amazing what you can do. It's amazing how much it's improved.

>> Yeah.

>> You know >> he's even got audio engine speakers.

>> I don't know what these boxes are though on the left. I feel like those are a little >> Don't overthink it. Okay, just

>> like Bill Spencer is hiding in the next Xbox console in the background or something.

>> I am just excited there's the right number of fingers.

>> Yeah.

>> Did Did you say he should be an Asian guy or was it just random?

>> Nope, that's random.

>> Yeah, I I think is this used anthropic for this or Gemini? What did you >> No, Gemini.

>> Gemini.

>> Nano. Banana. Of course. Yeah. Yeah. I

think that Google has kind of trained it to be um diverse.

>> Yeah, that's fine. As soon as I saw this, I was like, "Yeah, that's it. I'm

We're done.

>> Don't tell Trump." But I don't mind it.

No, it's fine.

>> You shouldn't mind it. You should

embrace it. It's great.

>> I embrace it.

>> Yeah.

>> And you know, I've been using uh so you know, every year we do these Advent of Code challenges, which are a lot of fun coding challenges.

>> And I used to have, you know, I have a library of lisp books and I used to I'd have to go and look up, oh, what is the name? I'm sure you do that too. anybody

name? I'm sure you do that too. anybody

when coding you know you don't remember always the syntax and your >> your editor might help you with that but sometimes you need to kind of look stuff up >> I just use AI now >> and uh I gave it all the books cuz

almost every this is the beauty of using an ancient language almost all the books are available online because no they're not being sold anymore so I just uploaded all the PDFs it's got 20 uh

different Linux classic Linux uh uh common list books in it and it knows everything and I can even say, well, how if I want to use this library, how would I do it? And it will just go and say, yeah, you just do it this way.

>> Nice.

>> It's incredible.

>> And even even in what you just said, what you're really describing in a way is you're you're communicating it with it naturally.

>> You know, you're not doing the machinations of I see this example in a book, but I want to do it right >> in a different way over here, and you're doing it. You're just describing what

doing it. You're just describing what you want.

>> It's even great. I think that's the >> it's even great for >> debugging.

>> So if I mean occasionally I'll do something and I just it's I don't know I can't see what's wrong with it. It's

like having a a a pair a programming partner and you just >> say can you >> someone you can throw something against >> and it goes oh yeah you have an extra parenthesis here. Oh

parenthesis here. Oh >> thank you.

>> Right.

>> It's amazing.

>> Right. This is why, you know, again, I so many people are so down on this stuff and I know >> I get it. I try to correct we feel threatened and and all that stuff, but >> yeah,

>> there are these the everything I described is not it's transformative in some way. Most of it in some small way,

some way. Most of it in some small way, but it's just happening everywhere, you know, and it's making things better.

>> Yeah.

>> How come your laptop is curiously angled? You guys are are leaning to to

angled? You guys are are leaning to to the right. I don't know. Or to the left.

the right. I don't know. Or to the left.

>> I'm leaning against him.

>> And I think Richard push back.

>> I just said I just said in the in the club too discord Paul's on the decline and Richard.

>> Yes. I would call it the recline, but yeah, fair enough.

>> Did you see there's a lot of talk in the Discord now about the AI ad from McDonald's, which is, >> you know, the dystopian Christmas.

>> Yeah, >> it's pretty. I can't play it because I McDonald's will get mad at me. But uh

yeah, >> and I need my Big Mac fix, but uh it looks like it's in Dutch, so it might be not available worldwide, but uh >> it's not available anymore at all. They

pulled it.

>> They pulled it.

>> Mhm.

>> Because this is and this is what you're countering. There is a visceral reaction

countering. There is a visceral reaction among people, anti-AI reaction, like >> Right. That's what I mean. We hate all

>> Right. That's what I mean. We hate all AI and we're never gonna >> The thing I I don't know if it was last week or the week before I blurted this out just in talking about this because you were talking about there is a visual reaction and I said, "Well, what if we

just called it technology? Does that

change the >> Yeah, exactly.

>> the opinion of people at all." And it's like when you think about it like this is just another >> thing that's making something you use better. Like

better. Like >> do you think this is the same reaction that we've seen time and time again to tech to new technologies?

>> Yeah, 100%.

>> This is light. is from pencil to pen to typewriter to electric typewriter to word processor to word on a PC, >> you know, like there there were people like, "No, I'm writing on a piece of

paper. That's how I think Dan Brown

paper. That's how I think Dan Brown writes books like that now."

>> Yeah.

>> Right.

>> What is he some kind of a psychotic idiot? Like what? Like what are you

idiot? Like what? Like what are you doing?

>> It's crazy.

>> No, plenty of artists is like, "If you haven't put pen to paper, you haven't put paint to canvas, you're not really creating art."

creating art." >> Yeah. And then the guy who's over here

>> Yeah. And then the guy who's over here with Photoshop is they're like, "Really?

Look at this masterpiece I created.

Screw you.

>> When I was a kid, I was into art. I did

art. I won all these art awards. And one

of the things I really struggled with because computers hadn't happened yet for this kind of stuff was you could make mistakes on a paper with pencil,

erase, pencil, erase, pencil, erase. You

would wear the paper through.

>> You know, the the ability to undo forever or whatever. and and and to have a design where you're like, "Okay, this is good, but I want to do it again, but do this part over." Like, this is anyone

who's created anything has run into this. I don't understand not embracing

this. I don't understand not embracing technology that makes your life easier and better.

>> Well, and part of this is the name is terrible. There's science fiction

terrible. There's science fiction connected to it. So, people's

perceptions are distorted. It's helped

them raise a ridiculous amount of money, >> right? But it also has upset people

>> right? But it also has upset people because of they the science fiction part >> because when has AI ever gone well in sci-fi >> never because it doesn't make for a good story, >> right?

>> It's a good enemy in its reality.

>> You never hear the stories where everything worked and everyone was fine.

>> Yeah, that's you know >> hell got us to Jupiter and we figured everything out. Went home happy.

everything out. Went home happy.

>> That was a joke on SNL about some new s Jurassic Park movie. The guy had never seen the movie and he says, "Oh, this is great." He goes, "Everyone went to the

great." He goes, "Everyone went to the island. The dinosaurs are friendly. No

island. The dinosaurs are friendly. No

one died."

>> He's like, "What ising?

>> What movie is that?"

>> Amazing.

>> You know?

>> Yeah.

>> Yeah.

>> Okay.

>> Just I'm just I I'm not like an AI cheerleader at all. I'm not

>> Well, I kind of am. I'm not being stupid about it. In fact, I hate it when people

about it. In fact, I hate it when people say, "Oh, the bubble's going to burst and all that."

>> That's about finance. That's not about >> I was going to say that the bubble bursting is a financial problem. It's

not a a technology problem. Now, right

>> and I think there's >> you can build this technology with this much money and now that it goes away, we're going to continue to use it.

>> That's right.

>> Yeah.

>> Look, any of us who have been around for any amount of time have seen this pattern before >> which is the web dis disappear in 2001.

>> No, I if I'm not mistaken, we're using it more than ever.

>> Yeah.

>> Um >> it becomes more accessible. It becomes

less expensive. It becomes, you know, more people can do things with it. It

gets more powerful. I mean, this is what happens. Yeah, the the downturns are

happens. Yeah, the the downturns are useful for focusing on what's actually valuable instead of just trying things non-stop. Like,

non-stop. Like, >> yeah, >> it's >> I don't care. I mean, I do, but I I focus I care about technology. Like, I

just, you know, I care about the products, the services, the you know, the okay, they're making money or not making money, whatever. It's a

conversation, but that's not where I don't approach it this way. So you can get lost in that especially with AI because the numbers are so skewed and so enormous we don't even know how to make

sense of it. Um but whatever this bubble burst or it doesn't but this stuff isn't going away guys. I'm sorry. Like this is >> no one is no one is taking away spellchecking and grammar checking

because you think you can write better than anybody and don't need that.

>> You know because I have news for you.

Maybe you can but the rest of the world does need that.

So, >> let me uh pause. Uh we have more AI to talk about and some negative stuff.

>> Oh, yeah.

>> No, we're not we're not all cheerleaders here. Uh but I do want to uh talk a

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this. Uh they've done some real design innovation. They've really they've

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checkout. It supports us. That's

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Act now because they're offering a limited time holiday discount which ends soon. We called him and said, "Hey, I

soon. We called him and said, "Hey, I see you got a discount." And he said, "Yeah, just say it in the end, but we don't know how long we're going to leave it up." I said, "Okay, we'll end soon,

it up." I said, "Okay, we'll end soon, folks. Now's the time."

folks. Now's the time."

Orframes.com/inc.

I am a fan.

Uh, Richard and Paul are in Malver, Pennsylvania at the Microsoft office. Do

they have offices in every community? Is

that how it works?

>> No.

>> Why?

>> Used to be They closed a bunch of them.

It's been here a long time.

>> It's Philly, basically. Okay.

Philadelphia.

>> It's a suburban Philly and it's a sales office probably, right? More than

anything >> mostly. Yeah.

>> mostly. Yeah.

>> It's a lot of display structure and stuff outside this room for >> various uh verticals.

>> And you're going to do a special live >> meetings and so forth.

>> Yeah. So, there's a user group meeting being held here, Philly.net. And uh

we're >> That's kind of neat. So, they do they have it for user groups, too. That's

cool.

>> It's been a while since we've done one of these. So, Byron's looking forward to

of these. So, Byron's looking forward to >> Nice. Be fun.

>> Nice. Be fun.

Very cool. Um, all right. More AI news.

>> Yeah. So, I think a year agoish, Anthropa came up with MCP, which is the what is the model context protocol, >> right?

>> Which was they gave out and was instantly adopted by all the big players, Microsoft including.

And flash forward a year and now Microsoft is one of the founding members of something that's called the

what is it called the uh the agentic AI foundation.

So >> a it's which sounds like an Apple sound format to me audio format of some kind but um Amazon AWS Anthropic Block

Cloudflare Bloomberg uh yeah you know all the big tech players uh Google open AAI as well are all founding members. um three key contributions at the beginning I should

say this is going to be under the Linux foundation uh open this is basically an open transparent organization for creating standards for essentially for

AI agents I guess um so MCP is one of the first contributions block made something called goose with the lowercase G

>> uh which is for local ondebase device AI agents I should say sorry and then agents.mmd which is the open AI kind of

agents.mmd which is the open AI kind of ad hoc standard for uh instructing AI agents on how to work usually giving them the context they need to complete whatever the task is. So they're

building off of that. But then the rest of the uh I don't know what to call this thing, the program, the foundation, whatever it is, um consist of like every big tech company you can think of except

for Apple and Meta by the way. Uh

conspicuously absent from this list, but uh if they're probably going to be part of it or using technology that won't be part of it anyway. I mean

>> this is actually related to one of our sponsors agency >> who's also a Linux Foundation project.

Yeah. Um they had come up in our space about a year ago because they started that it's a stupid name but supporters of Chromiumbi based browsers program.

>> Okay.

>> And the idea it's essentially >> a lot of them.

>> Yeah.

>> Yeah. But not just browsers but also just kind of chromium based applications essentially. Right. And um I think just

essentially. Right. And um I think just trying to not take it away from Google but but take it away from Google if that makes sense to to to >> seems to be the theme with everything AI

reli but >> but that's kind of what they did >> sort of what it is. Yeah. So anyway

interesting um maybe a natural thing and this had come up months ago on the show.

We were talking about AI and why are these companies you know collaborating on this stuff so much. It's it's kind of notable in this

much. It's it's kind of notable in this market, but I think it has to do with the current regulation, climate, and uh the way politics are right now, etc. Like these companies are like, let's be

move quick and get this stuff in before anyone put a stop to it. And uh they're all working together. So, this is kind of interesting. I mean, you know,

of interesting. I mean, you know, we'll see what comes with that. But the

point here is that you will create AI agents. So, you might be Microsoft,

agents. So, you might be Microsoft, Google, whatever, open AI, whatever. And

these things will all be interoperable.

So an AI agent that can work off of OpenAI models will work off of Copilot models will work off of anthropic models or whatever. So but it seems like

or whatever. So but it seems like they're headed on the path of W3C or IETF just try to put together a group that maintains some standards and is certainly early on here. These very

teams are just going to be submitting stuff. People can just either adopt it

stuff. People can just either adopt it or not.

>> That's right. That's right. And look, I mean, I'm sure Anthropic had a couple of geniuses that came up with MCP. Other

people looked at said, "Oh my god, that's amazing. We're totally doing

that's amazing. We're totally doing this." But this will allow that to

this." But this will allow that to happen on a grander scale where it could be some contributor from some place you would never expect is going to walk in and say, "Hey, what about this thing?"

And it might it will become part of the standard, right? So, it's good.

standard, right? So, it's good.

In the less good department, uh the researchers, industry analysts at Gardner have warned their customers that AI browsers are a security or cyber security risk that we do not understand

and that organizations should block their roll out across the board like universally. And they're they're

universally. And they're they're specifically looking at things like perplexity comet chat, you know, chat GPD, but their definition of an AI browser is that it has to have two

things. So there's an AI sound sidebar

things. So there's an AI sound sidebar where you're looking at content on the web and interacting with it over here summarizing rewriting etc. But also those agenda capabilities and that's the thing we always talk about the

autonomously this thing is going to go out and do something on your behalf complete some task. It's going to buy a product. It's going to charge a credit

product. It's going to charge a credit card. It's whatever it's going to do. We

card. It's whatever it's going to do. We

hear a lot about this stuff. We don't

see a lot of it happening. It's not that it's not happening but it's basically not happening. By that definition,

not happening. By that definition, Microsoft Edge is an agentic AI browser.

It has both of those things. And now

>> in preview, right, >> the the co-pilot, the new co-pilot features, I think actions and discoveries >> qualify for this. This is absolutely there. Um, Google will be there soon

there. Um, Google will be there soon with Chrome. They've announced that

with Chrome. They've announced that they're going there. They have the sidebar, of course, but they're they don't have the the agentic stuff is not just there yet, but obviously they're doing this. Um, and I have to say like

doing this. Um, and I have to say like I'm not a not like not an AI cheerleader, but also not an AI alarmist, but they make a pretty good case,

honestly, um, that these things may be, and this is not that, you know, I think it was, yeah, Vilvaldi basically came out and said, "Look, we're never putting AI in our browser. There's plenty of ways to do AI. If you're using our

browser, want to use AI, you're not ever going to be limited." And then you have the other end of the spectrum where it's like, it's just going to be AI.

Everything's going to be AI.

Um I I don't I It's weird because I feel like people read less than ever.

>> And there are people who are saying, "I don't need this thing doing things on my behalf. I want to read the web. I want

behalf. I want to read the web. I want

to browse the web." And it's like, yeah, I'm not sure many people are actually doing what you're describing, per se, but >> don't even know if you're doing it. Just

saying.

>> Exactly. Um, so I'm not sure what to say, but I but I do know that automating things on the back end that have access to your private data, not just your credit card information, but just your

your health data, whatever it might be.

This is dangerous and this does need to have secure controls in place that we know work. And right now, we don't know

know work. And right now, we don't know of any that work. You know, we just talked about this there.

>> You're going to have someone on the next show that will make this case. And it's

correct. It's there is we don't know of a way to actually effectively secure these things. Even the companies that

these things. Even the companies that are pushing this really hard will say, you know, be careful. Uh maybe don't put your credit card in there. Like, you

know, start small.

>> Make sure your data estate is in order.

>> Your data estate. It's going to be your state soon if you're not careful because you're not going to be around. Um so,

fair enough. I don't think that this is something that will be, you know, the advice forever, but maybe part of this AI foundation we were just talking about, one of the things they can work

up is what Microsoft is working on, I'm sure these other companies are working on as well separately, which is how do we actually secure this stuff?

>> Mhm.

>> It's a good question.

>> Um, plus, you know, gardeners, they know more about anything than anybody, so they're probably right.

>> No. uh that I don't know I don't I don't know any system admin was installing version one on anything and that's definitely what these AI browsers are.

So, >> which is my only problem with this in a way because I feel like that can be a little too aggressive.

>> Yeah.

>> Generally speaking, >> but with this thing, >> a browser has so much privilege in a system, >> you know, it is the >> and so much capability.

>> It is the security context for most software, right? Because most stuff,

software, right? Because most stuff, especially in the enterprise, is just running through a browser.

>> So, to to have risks on that interface >> introduce a tremendous amount of risk.

>> Yep. And they we literally have no way to secure what they're doing right now.

We just don't understand.

>> I mean, it's gonna it's going to take time. You're going to have to take the

time. You're going to have to take the time to put it in a uh a honeypot kind of situation where you can watch everything that it's doing and and have some sense of it.

>> Yeah.

>> This is such a moving target. It's like

you got enough problems. You don't need this one.

>> Yeah. I know. It's I know. I I hate to sound the alarmist thing, but I actually I don't know. I think that I think I have my point here.

Uh, New York Times infamously suing the New York, sorry, OpenAI and Microsoft for stealing content to train their models. The Open AI argument essentially

models. The Open AI argument essentially boils down to we think we should just be able to steal you content. Um, that's

not a good one.

>> So, they're doing pretty good. Uh, but

now they're suing Perplexity as well because obviously this company is doing the same thing. So, we'll see where this goes. Um, but

goes. Um, but I don't know what the answer is here as far as establishing some program or programs that I don't know pay content creator model of some kind

>> some. Yeah, I don't know. I don't know.

>> some. Yeah, I don't know. I don't know.

I don't know. We'll see comes out of this.

>> I I never I didn't write about this, but I got an email and then a letter in the mail from Anthropic or from their lawyers and I am owed up to $3,000 per book for the content they stole from me.

I got the same letter and I was going to ask you what >> I looked at and I have seven books.

>> Yeah.

>> So, here's the thing.

>> Yes, you should absolutely decide to go into this, right? So, I once you factor >> class action letter, I presume. What's

that?

>> It's a class action letter.

>> It's class action, right?

>> The settlement's done.

>> Well, it's I don't know that it's finalized in the sense that I don't think the judge has yet approved it.

>> Yeah, the judge approved it. It's done.

>> Are you sure about that?

>> Yeah.

Okay. I thought that this stopped it >> and said, "No, look, I have to look at this because I'm afraid that the lawyers are getting the lion share of the money." And then looked at it saying,

money." And then looked at it saying, "No, no, it's fine.

>> I don't know how I Okay, I'm not sure how I missed that. I

>> You can't opt out of this.

>> Yes, you don't you don't get it unless you ask for it, >> right? And if you ask for it, you can't

>> right? And if you ask for it, you can't sue them again later, right, >> for the same content, >> of course."

>> But in my case, so seven books.

>> Yep. Most of them have co-authors, so there's going to be some revenue sharing there. However that works out, um there

there. However that works out, um there will be fees, etc. I'm sure what I end up getting is $13 per book, not $3,000 per book.

>> We'll see how much the lawyers take.

>> But when you think about like the old or >> I feel here's my quandry.

>> Okay.

>> I I'm glad that Anthropic ingested my books.

>> I want all of them to ingest my books.

It's good for the AI and I'm >> Would you like to have been able to opt into that before they just did it?

>> Okay.

>> No, I'm a believer in you're free to ignore it. You're free to tell them it

ignore it. You're free to tell them it was completely >> That's my quandry because at the same time anthropic is >> you would have opted in if there was an option to opt in >> for free.

I don't know. It depends. So in my case, most of these books are very old. I

think >> yeah, you're not making any money on them. In fact, it's probably more money

them. In fact, it's probably more money than I made.

>> That's the point. So, if I made I would have made more than $3,000 on each of those books at some time, but you flash forward 20 years or whatever it might be. This is found money in the sense

be. This is found money in the sense that I those books were never going to generate any money today. They were all for out of date things. One of them is a Windows XP book.

>> Um I think the most recent one might have been the second edition of the Windows Vista book, I think, or maybe Windows 7. I don't remember. But

Windows 7. I don't remember. But

>> I just like that you made two additions of the Windows book.

>> Yeah. Well, we had to rush the first one up. The the

up. The the >> I haven't got you go to the database and enter your ISBN number and it will tell you if you're >> you can search for your name. You know,

you >> I haven't done that yet. So, I don't know, but I like I said, I had seven.

>> Yeah.

>> Look, I'm going to I'll take a check from these guys. Like AI Perplexity has stolen my content. I know they have. I

already I know they have.

>> Is it stealing? It's just training AI.

Is it stealing? It's I don't think it's stealing anymore. This is you're like

stealing anymore. This is you're like the lawyer of like uh representing perplexity here. Like yeah, that's the

perplexity here. Like yeah, that's the question. Is it stealing?

question. Is it stealing?

>> What the New York Times is saying is yeah, it's stealing because you're reproducing it verbatim.

>> Yeah.

>> If you go to the library and read the New York Times in the library, are you stealing it?

>> I don't think we're going to be able to judge this case right here on the air like live. But but this is the case. So,

like live. But but this is the case. So,

>> the the humor to this is if they had just bought these books, they would have spent a lot less money.

>> Yeah.

>> If they got it, by the way, because they were found to have done this and known they were breaking the law, technically they're on the hook for $150,000 per work.

>> Yeah. That's why they were happy to settle for what >> that's why they were settled. Yep. So,

they could have paid a lot less than the whatever it is billion plus that they're going to pay out. Um, of which, yes, the lawyers will get some huge chunk. Um,

but they also could have just done the right thing, you know. So, this is going to be the problem for OpenAI.

>> Well, in fact, they did the right thing with a bunch of other books.

>> And the judge said, "Yeah, >> that's good. That's fine. You don't have to worry about those books."

>> Well, that's like saying you you robbed a store, but you also went back and bought one item later. So, you're like, you're an okay person. Like, you know, you still rob like you still >> No, it was a it was a legitimate fair

use case in a very important way.

>> Okay.

Well, they settled. So they're they're going to pay. So we'll see. I'll see

what comes out of that. I mean, that's interesting. I think OpenAI and

interesting. I think OpenAI and Microsoft are going to have to do the same or something similar.

>> Well, yeah, there's a precedent set now.

Yeah.

>> Yep. So, we'll see what comes out of that. Um, the OpenAI New York Times one

that. Um, the OpenAI New York Times one is interesting because >> it's totally >> OpenAI has done everything they can not to give them their like chat histories and

>> as they should because that's our chats.

>> It's anonymized. It is um it it was only started being deleted after the New York Times sued them and they were told not to do that and

they then well like they then came up with this kind of privacy argument and it's like but the judge said but you said these were anonymized so what's the privacy I don't understand what you're

talking about. Um,

talking about. Um, so this is not basically they are going to have to turn over I think it's 20 million chat GP logs which sounds like a

lot but it's also have 200 billion chat logs or whatever the number is some crazy number so it's like some tiny percentage of the chat logs but um and the point here is to see that New York

Times content has just been regurgitated back to users which is what they're trying to find out in the case they've made so we'll see we'll Uh, let's see if I can keep this

straight. Um, Opera, yes, Opera was the

straight. Um, Opera, yes, Opera was the company that had Arya >> and then they just did a deal with Google and Gemini. Am I doing the wrong one?

>> Isn't Arya the the browser guys?

>> The browser guys? Yeah.

>> You mean the DIA guys?

>> Yeah, >> that's Dia. Yeah,

>> Dia.

>> Dia.

>> Dia. Arya. I think Arya was Opera, but now we're calling it >> Opera or I think we're just calling it Opera AI or AI for Opera.

>> Okay.

>> Um there's been a big separation between desktop and mobile browser capabilities across the board. Not just AI, but just across the board, you know, because mobile phones are well and mobile device

makers lock down their platforms to some degree, right? Especially Apple. Um, but

degree, right? Especially Apple. Um, but

Opera's kind of closing that loop a little bit like Opera for Android, which has more of an opportunity to do, you know, to modify that product than say you do on Apple, at least worldwide. Um,

they're bringing their AI capabilities from the desktop browser to the mobile browser. So, you can do the ask AI stuff

browser. So, you can do the ask AI stuff in the search bar. You can attach a file and have it use that for context. Um,

you can use the current context, but not multiple uh tabs for context as well.

And you know this is like a little mobile browser on your phone. It's kind of cool like it's you know it's turning into some like full AI platform that's pretty good. Um and then tied to that

good. Um and then tied to that discussion we had earlier about like real world use for AI etc. I mentioned automation and and this was actually the inspiration for this although Microsoft

has this too right. So, Copilot Studio is this for the Microsoft 365 space, but Google Workspace Studio is now available

for Workspace customers. So, I actually just used this and I have to say this is the first thing I've seen that's like an if this then that type solution,

but for normal people. And they have a lot of pre-built templates that basically boil down to the thing I said earlier, like the types of things like if Richard emails me, I always want to be notified

no matter what's going on, even if my phone is on do not disturb or whatever it might be, you know, that kind of thing. And there's a there's a lot of

thing. And there's a there's a lot of them and they span multiple categories.

And this is this actually was the inspiration not just for that part of the article but for the article in a way because when I the way this was described and how it looks when I use it I thought

there we go. This is something we've had for a long time. Automation is not new.

You know we I think we talked about uh the stuff that Apple's been doing for decades now and um you know Microsoft in the Microsoft space many many solutions over there. We have Power Automate today

over there. We have Power Automate today etc. But these things are they're complex. They're like power user tools

complex. They're like power user tools and this is something I think normal people can just use and it's natural language. You know, it's not you're not

language. You know, it's not you're not connecting shapes in a flowchart. You're

you're saying you're just talking to it like you can type but you can talk and say if this isn't if this happens do this and it will it's it's a conversation I think that makes sense to

to people.

>> So it's exciting. I It's good.

So, some good and bad on AI, I guess, is the way to say the nature of the business.

>> The only reason I I wouldn't want to take the money, I feel guilty because I I'm a supporter of AI.

>> I think AI needs to have as much genuinely good content as possible. We

use >> they should have bought it instead of just using everything.

>> Yeah. I don't

>> I don't think there's enough money in the world to buy all the data, all the information in the world.

>> They didn't need all the data. He said

all the good.

>> All they had to do was buy it. No, I

mean so my book from a used bookstore.

>> It's ingested the entire internet.

>> Yeah.

>> Is it supposed to pay for everything >> is not good?

>> I mean, are they supposed to pay for nothing? I don't understand. Like, it's

nothing? I don't understand. Like, it's

just on the internet, so it's just free for everybody. A lot of the stuff was

for everybody. A lot of the stuff was behind pay walls.

>> Yeah, >> that was the problem with the New York Times stuff. They're like, "This is for

Times stuff. They're like, "This is for our customers."

our customers." >> Yes.

>> You know, even I'm not saying I agree with this, but they're saying something like someone could go to Perplexity Comet and say, "I would like a summary of this New York Times article." and it generates it. Well, they're not paying

generates it. Well, they're not paying for the New York Times. The New York Times, excuse me, this is behind our payw wall. Like, you're supposed to pay

payw wall. Like, you're supposed to pay for this.

>> Go ahead and try that just to see what you get.

>> Um, >> it's not I'm not literally taking their side. I'm

just saying it is a it's a question like um I I don't I mean, it's like we can't pay for this. It's too expensive, but we're

for this. It's too expensive, but we're just going to do it anyway. It's like

what? Wait, what? Yeah, but but there's don't Well, we were just >> Why do you Why do you Why do you rob the bank? That's where the money is. Why do

bank? That's where the money is. Why do

you steal the data from the value?

>> If you believe that, you shouldn't use AI at all.

>> If I believe I don't Oh, not >> because it's ill gotten gains. You're

using the fruit of the forbidden tree.

You shouldn't use AI.

>> Okay.

>> Well, seriously, you you can't have both positions. I don't know what we're

positions. I don't know what we're talking about here. I'm talking about a I'm talking about companies that have billions of dollars in funding >> and you're I'm saying it as an individual who if I ran my business like

they ran it the country and my state would tell me that I have a charity now.

How dare you use How dare you use this ill gotten >> what are you I'm talking about a legal this is a legal thing >> but you're using the benefit you're getting the benefit you do not

understand what I'm saying is we're paying them for it and they should be paying their share too >> right I don't understand like it's okay for them to steal it and it's okay for me to pay them for the thing they stole

I don't understand why >> yeah so okay so I go to a bank no let's go to a jewelry store I buy I steal a ring and I sell it to

It's okay cuz you bought it.

>> I'm I'm not saying it's okay. What do

you mean? I don't

>> You're using stolen from content that was stolen which you don't buy.

>> You're saying it's not okay for them to have stolen it.

>> Yeah.

>> But you're buying the goods that they stole.

>> I'm not buying the goods. I'm not. What

do you mean? I'm

>> You're saying it's okay for you to use AI because you're paying them for it.

That's the same thing as buying a ring that was stolen.

>> Okay. In that case, I'd have to give back the ring. I don't

>> Yes. because you're you you're using AI.

You love this AI. We just talked about it.

>> I don't think we're actually on either side of this argument. I don't think I'm not arguing against what you're saying.

I I'm I'm raising the I'm just say for I'm just describing what's happening. I I

that's why I'm saying the topic has settled like it doesn't actually matter what about taking the money because >> the courts have said it. Yeah.

>> I would never be conflicted about taking money for something for something I created. that someone stole. So, I don't

created. that someone stole. So, I don't know what I just don't I don't even know what to say to that. Like I

>> And more saliently, this is what the law has said. This is what just come down.

has said. This is what just come down.

It's settled now.

>> I'm not getting $3,000 per for each of these books. I I that I have no doubt.

these books. I I that I have no doubt.

>> So, you're okay? Cuz the the judge also said >> that the all the content that Anthropic got by buying used copies of your book and ingesting that's fine. That's fair

use. So, you're okay with that part?

>> Mhm. I'm No, I'm not saying that at all.

I'm saying that's what was decided.

That's the >> That's the law. That's the law.

>> But you're not okay with it. It's just

that's the law.

>> I'm not saying that either. I don't

actually have an opinion about it.

>> Professionals have figured this out for us.

>> No, I mean, I literally don't You're allowed to have an opinion just cuz a judge has made it. By the way, this is not a final judgement.

>> I'm saying I don't have an opinion. I

just don't I don't think it matters. I

don't I've not considered it. Like in

other words, I there's a definitely a debate to be had about what's fair and what's not fair and all whatever. But

the law is the law and >> okay >> I they're paying out a billion dollars.

I'm going to get some of it or I'm not.

Why would I not get some of it? They did

steal my content.

>> I did spend time writing it. It was a long time ago.

>> They didn't steal it. There there was a database created of of pirated books which they used. And by the way, everybody else used >> I wanted to be paid by them too.

>> Yeah. Okay. So if that happens, I'm happy to take it. If it doesn't, I'm not going to raise the issue. I'm not going to argue about it every week. Like

>> how come by meta?

>> What if by doing this you undermine the entire uh you in fact do say that this AI thing was a bubble and you undermine the entire enterprise and we no longer have AI?

>> I mean that's a I that's like a science fiction speculation thing. I don't know.

I mean >> no it right now it is. I don't I can't you can't are you going to like when our economy collapses 10 years from now or whatever are you going to be able to point it back like if you didn't take that money

>> I think it's widely agreed there's not enough money generated now by AI to pay for the content they're >> well there's not enough money to pay for the hardware they're using that that's just because they haven't been able to value

>> but also in the in the realm of this conversation the content that they are ingesting hardware independent of that is there's not enough money for them to pay for all that content

>> so if in effect this happens, you could say you'd be saying, "Well, we don't have AI anymore." Is that okay with you?

>> I don't think that's I don't think those are the two outcomes. I I there if you know, Deep Sync is just one example of how this could be done more efficiently.

So, I I just think this is these are some of the best funded companies.

>> The efficiency of deep has nothing to do with the content ingesting. It has to do with the hardware it's using.

>> Well, you asked the Sorry. No, I'm

talking independent of the hardware. I I

I I agree with you. The hardware is is also a expense they can't afford. But

let's say they could afford it. If you

make them pay for the information they adjust this is not a viable, >> right?

>> We don't actually know that. We don't

know the price. We don't know what they sell it for. Like there's no way to know that Leo.

>> It's widely It's widely agreed.

>> Well, it's certainly enthus by the folks that might have to pay. They certainly

feel that So I think I I think if I read between the lines here a little bit, I feel like what you have is a moral conundrum here.

>> No, no, there's also a practical or maybe a very >> there's also I have a moral conundrum. I

agree about whether I should take the money.

>> But separate from that, there's a practical conundrum which is that AI does rely on ingesting >> as much information as it possibly can.

But there are possible ways that this could have occurred. You could say, "Look, this is a national security issue. It's important that we get this.

issue. It's important that we get this.

The Chinese are just going to steal it anyway. We got to just do it." In which

anyway. We got to just do it." In which case, perhaps the United States government should be fending this or whatever.

>> But instead, what we have is the world's richest companies funding it.

>> Well, independent of that, if if >> they have to pay for everything that's behind a payw wall, they're only get the stuff that's not behind a payw wall, right?

>> Okay. Or

>> is that a good Is that a useful AI?

>> I don't know.

>> It isn't. I can tell you I Well, you're also the fact that it never occurred to these people to try to even pay for this >> is the problem.

>> I mean, look, I think the judge made the right decision that they should pay up for the stuff they pirated >> and they should and they should and it is fair use for the stuff that they bought even though it was bought uh it

wasn't the money didn't go to you, Paul.

It went to the used bookstore. No,

that's for sure. Yeah. No.

>> Uh but that the judge said is fair use.

So uh I guess >> look we have this concept of copyright and this lasts for some amount of time and then it goes and things become public domain etc.

>> Um they obviously wanted more recent data than that and they decided to steal.

>> Yes, they should. Don't you think if you want to use AI don't you want recent data?

Well, but you said that after I said they decided to steal it. I mean, they they could have one of the things we'll never know is what if they just went to all of the con, you know, somehow I don't know how you would do that, but like we're gonna here's what we're going

to pay.

>> Should Google pay for all the stuff at indexes?

>> I don't Leo. I don't I don't know.

>> I think it's the same question, but anyway, we'll move on. That's

>> It is actually sort of the same question. And but by the way, Google has

question. And but by the way, Google has been sued in every continent on this planet for exactly what you just described, scraping news sites. And now

they have a Google publishing program where they actually pay content creators. And it's because of that. It's

creators. And it's because of that. It's

because they stall. So actually Google, I'm not saying it's perfect, but they've they've addressed it in the sense that now they don't do what they did >> to to what we know.

>> You know, things have changed.

>> I I I don't want I just want to be super clear. I'm not actually I'm not even

clear. I'm not actually I'm not even sure I'm disagreeing with you at all. I

just don't I don't I don't know enough about this and I actually don't I know it sounds like I'm dodging this, but I really don't I'm not sure I have strong

opinions about most of this. I just But your question though originally what what kicked this off was >> I will take the money.

>> I'm not sure if I should take this money.

>> No, I don't don't do it because I'm doing it. I mean, look, it's perfectly

doing it. I mean, look, it's perfectly fine for two rational thinking people to look at the same situation and both go in different directions.

>> That's the moral conundrum versus the other question.

>> That's what I think. I think that's what I mean. I think you're actually having a

I mean. I think you're actually having a moral conundrum.

>> You have a you're having a visceral reaction about it.

>> No, no. I No, no. I've been thinking about this a lot.

I've been thinking about this a lot.

This is a fundamental question, frankly, uh, in AI that has to be resolved.

>> It's one of the fundamental questions.

talk about it all the time, >> right?

>> Every creator says, "Well, wait a minute. You can't just

minute. You can't just >> The nano banana you love so much is trained on content that some poor schle created and is now out of work because Paul can't afford to hire them, so he's

going to use nano banana."

>> Okay. But I but the truth is I was in fact paying for uh stock photo service.

No, we talked about this last week and you made a very good point that that that isn't taking away somebody's job because I couldn't >> something that never existed before.

That's yes, it's AI saves you time. AI

saves you money, >> saves you both, >> but also creates this new thing. It's

not about job loss.

The place where we know if these technologies are economically viable.

>> They haven't been charging what they actually cost. They have not paid for

actually cost. They have not paid for the development costs.

>> They're essentially being subsidized.

And in this case, they're being subsidized by some of the world's richest companies for the most part.

>> But this is kind of the same thing that the whole internet in the beginning was based on. Remember the internet,

based on. Remember the internet, everything was free, >> but it wasn't really >> Facebook is not why we led we led to you are the product.

>> I don't know if you had to fund it somehow right?

>> I don't know if it was Mark Andre or Sam Alman. I don't remember some someone

Sam Alman. I don't remember some someone in this space said something. We made

actually it might have been Tim Bern and his Lee it someone made the point that the web could have gone in two directions. There could have been like

directions. There could have been like this free ad supported version and a paid version and it could have been like maybe Spotify is today or something as Spotify is a terrible company too but you know in the sense that we have these

choices but we just took the easy way out and we kind of inertified the internet because ads more ads more ads more ads more ads and then it becomes this terrible terrible thing. And so

what happened was some content creators belatedly after the fact, the New York Times did this, locked it down after the fact >> said, "Okay, payw wall.

>> Now we're doing a payw wall." And it the argument is like maybe it should have been like this from the beginning and then there could have been some subset

of the user base that was paying more and it was helping the whole thing make sense. But we didn't do that. We made

sense. But we didn't do that. We made

everything crappy. And now we have ads everywhere. We we started with blinking

everywhere. We we started with blinking and there were tower ads and banner ads and ads ads ads and pop over ads and pop under ads and the whole mess and you know you can't rewrite history. You

can't redo it but it's what happened.

>> Yeah.

>> I don't know. I don't really I don't have >> these are big questions. They're not

going to answer them today but uh some one of the things we talk about on intelligent machines all the time too.

>> Yeah. So I think that's why it's important you have that that's good that you have the show.

>> Yeah. No, it is. And it's good that we're just not cheerleaders for AI, but we really want to figure this out.

>> I mean, I have a pompom here, but >> I am a cheerleader for AI. I admit it.

But fortunately, Paris and Jeff are not have other opinions.

>> No, I mean, as you I actually don't think I don't I bet you aren't. I You're

more You're a personal technology enthusiast and you see this as part of that. So, of course, you see the good

that. So, of course, you see the good and the bad. You're not stupid about it.

like you see both sides of it.

>> And that's what it that's all that's my that's my point. I'm just trying to >> I come from a the hacker ethic going way back.

>> One of the chief rules of the hacker ethic was information wants to be free and that people who are kind of putting payw walls in front of information are somehow saying that you know you wrote

your books you didn't create them out of whole cloth. You wrote your books based on

cloth. You wrote your books based on information that was freely shared with you.

and work that you did admittedly uh you know I'm not saying you didn't put effort into it but uh >> I believe information wants to be free and should be free because that is the

greater good of of mankind >> but >> we don't all agree on a lot of people said ought to get paid for my information I don't I would never put a

payw wall up to keep people from ingesting our content for instance >> you know well right so >> except for the except for the club Right.

>> Everything that the club does is eventually available publicly.

>> It's all creative com licensed.

>> I have a you have a what I would call a small company in some ways. I have an way smaller company. Um and I I this is one of those lead by example type things

like I'm not saying what I'm doing is right or the best thing or the only thing, but I do the same thing. I if you want to pay for it, you can. And we have whatever benefits we might have for

that. But we also anyone can come and

that. But we also anyone can come and see it if they want, you know. And I

look, as a writer, I want everyone to read my stuff. I want everyone to see it, >> but I also need to live. I need to find a way to make that work. And that's one of the reasons for the club that works

quite well. It's a chance for people to

quite well. It's a chance for people to support what we do, but it isn't a payw wall.

>> Um, I've always felt very strongly that all of our content should be available to even to people who don't want can't don't want to or cannot pay for it. um

including AI, by the way.

>> But uh and you know, I've have hundreds of thousands of hours of content that AI has presumably ingested. And

>> I just feel like I got an email. I

talked about this last year. Someone's

like, I had never heard of this company at the time. It was Perplexity. And

they're like, I just asked you this question. It spewed out one of your

question. It spewed out one of your articles basically. And they were like,

articles basically. And they were like, I don't remember.

>> This is another larger conversation. And

I've had a debate over this with >> but as a as someone who creates something when you see a copy of your book being downloaded for free on a torren site or whatever it might be.

However people >> but that's not what perplexity is doing.

But understand perplexity is a search engine that orchestrates AI. So don't

confuse that with open AI. What

perplexity is doing is going out and searching the stuff that's online that you put out online in public and is getting that information and summarizing that using AI. So it is not ingest your

stuff to train itself. Perplexity does

not train any AI models. It's not what it does.

>> Saying when someone republishes something I wrote, >> I know what that feels like. As someone

who took the time to create that content, >> when I see my >> do all the time with their browsers >> on some other I know they do that and it hurts every time I see it.

>> It hurts. It does. I

>> What? Wait a minute. If I go to throbbat.com and read an article, you don't you're upset.

>> No. if someone else distills it. I I've

had so many instances >> republishes it on sites were just articles, >> but that's not what Perplexity is doing.

Perplexity is doing a search based on a user asking the same thing a browser.

That's what a browser does. Somebody

types in theat.com and gets your content.

>> You're not going to ever take away the fact that I saw my content on their site and I was not getting paid for it. So I

you you can tell me what they do, but what I'm telling you they did was steal from me.

>> The New York Times seems to agree with you.

>> Okay.

>> Cuz they're suing they're going after Perplexity for the same thing.

>> Yep. No, we'll see what happens. I'm not

saying they're right and they're wrong and whatever. We'll see. We'll see.

and whatever. We'll see. We'll see.

>> Legitimate to go after openlen Google who are taking your content, ingesting it, and creating AI out of it perhaps. I

mean, I'm not >> those are hard because you don't know what's happening until it's too late. If

I buy a browser and I use that browser to go to thorat.com, it's it's absurd to say, "Oh, well now the browser company should pay Paul because I used it to go to thorat.com."

>> I never said that.

>> No, I know. But some people are. And

that's what Perplexity does.

>> Okay.

>> Perplexity think sees it that way because that's what's happening next. Perplexity made a

happening next. Perplexity made a malange of three different sites worth of content and put it into an article of which 57s of it was mine where literal sentence I had written interspersed with

other people's work.

>> You go after somebody who creates a site doing that. That's different from what

doing that. That's different from what perplexity is doing. Perplexity is doing what it telling you is I don't care. To me it felt exactly the same. It was my stuff

being stolen by something someone else.

And I'm sorry, but that felt exactly the same. It was a bad feeling I wrote about

same. It was a bad feeling I wrote about it. It was terrible.

it. It was terrible.

>> Uh, are we done with the AI segment?

>> Yes, we are.

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I hear snoring in the background. I hope

Paul is not asleep.

See, is you okay? Oh, good. All right.

>> What's wrong?

>> Nothing.

>> Let's talk Xbox Paulie.

>> Oh, yes.

Um, as everybody knows, Xbox consoles are selling gang busters. And so

Microsoft I don't think that's true.

Pretty sure that's not true.

>> I I didn't make this point. I I read this somewhere, but someone made the point that there are no Xbox consoles for sale anywhere at any time like during Black Friday.

>> Like no discounts.

>> There were no discount. Yeah. There was

just they were not part of it. Like if

you look at what Xbox did for Black Friday, >> not there's ever been a margin on those things anyway.

>> Well, I think that's why. Plus, the

tariffs have raised the costs to them significantly.

>> Like astronomically.

>> Yeah.

>> But um but >> they can't afford to give you a break this holiday season.

>> Sony is selling PlayStations G those are going gang busters.

>> Do they have Black Friday deals?

>> Yeah. Is there much of a discount on a PS5? only Microsoft was not part of it

PS5? only Microsoft was not part of it to the tune of I and this was some >> I don't analyst report uh for the month of November

top selling consoles were um Sony PlayStation 5, Switch 2, and some thing from China no one's ever heard of that's only sold there and Xbox was not in the

top three. It's like uh it's not good.

top three. It's like uh it's not good.

So, it's kind of interesting. Um, Call

of Duty or Activision announced that they're never going to do what they just did twice, which is sell two Call of Duty games from the same series of games like Modern Warfare and Black Ops

backtoback. So, they did this with

backtoback. So, they did this with Modern Warfare 2 and three, the newer versions a couple years back and then they just did it with Black Ops 6 and 7.

They didn't say this, but the reason they're doing this is because Black Ops 7 has been one of the worst received Call of Duty games of all time.

basically giving seven away if you buy six.

>> They're the same game. Like the thing I Rich, >> you think you you were selling all >> this morning. I was bringing up a new review laptop and I thought I'm I'm going to I'm going to do something I haven't done. I'm first I'm going to do

haven't done. I'm first I'm going to do something I have done, which is I'm going to install all of Call of Duty.

Like what whatever that might be, >> right?

>> 300 gigabytes by the way. It's 310

gigabytes I think was the total size.

>> Then how many games is that actually?

So, I thought it I thought it was going to be Black Ops 6 and seven >> and Modern Warfare 2 and three >> and then War Zone, >> right?

>> And zombies or each one of them has like a zombie thing. Um, and that's what it said it was. But the thing I had hadn't done like ever was I played Black Ops 6

and seven, but I've never tried to play Modern Warfare 3 or two. So,

>> so tell me when you went to run them and had to install some more stuff.

>> So, I went Exactly.

So remember the the baseline figure was 300 gigabytes 310 I'll call it 310 and when I went to run modelware for three

I had a 150 gig download like >> so you've got a one terabyte drive in that laptop.

>> Yep. It's for it's half >> half of it for this game set.

>> Yeah. Black. Uh uh I later then did Modern Warfare 2. That was it said it was going to be about 100 110 somewhere in there. I looked at it later and and

in there. I looked at it later and and it was it said it was at whatever of 86 gig. So it wasn't actually quite 500,

gig. So it wasn't actually quite 500, but it was clo it was pretty close. Um

yikes. So

and it's astonishing how the same these games are actually, right? I obviously graphics gotten a

right? I obviously graphics gotten a little better, but the the actual engine of these games are all >> might even be the same.

>> They are the same. They're the same.

>> This is just the assets >> apparently.

>> Just the graphical assets.

>> Crazy.

>> Yeah, that's nuts.

>> Now, on this laptop, I've never played any of these games. I spent the whole day downloading them. But I So if you think if if you play Call of Duty, you will know more about this than I do. But

when they after they did the sec the new version of Modern Warfare 2, the the thing that became Modern Warfare 3, well, they were always going to call it that was just going to be an add-on for

two. And someone at Activision was like,

two. And someone at Activision was like, "Guys, we make a billion bucks a year on these games. We can't give this thing

these games. We can't give this thing away as DLC. Like, it's going to be a game." So they called it Modern Warfare

game." So they called it Modern Warfare 3. and they tried to bulk it up a little

3. and they tried to bulk it up a little bit, but it was no one was very happy with that one.

>> It was meant to be a DLC.

>> Yeah. And then Black Ops 6, they didn't intend it to be DLC. There was always going to be a seven, but it's like it's the same freaking game. Like they added wall running again, but it's like

there's not much new going on there. And

it's astonishing like how big if anytime any if you think Windows is a nightmare to update and maintain or down whatever Call of Duty makes this thing looks like

a like a Comeer 64 title from 1981. Like

it's it's the biggest bloatiest piece of junk. I I know what's going on. But

junk. I I know what's going on. But

anyway, they're gonna Activision had gone to a system many years ago where they had two and then finally three studios making these games. So every two to three years they a different studio would come up with a different Call of Duty

and you know it worked or it didn't work. It doesn't really matter but

work. It doesn't really matter but >> um man they've really they really stalled. So they're not going to do that

stalled. So they're not going to do that again. They're they'll they sort of seem

again. They're they'll they sort of seem to confirm like it's just going to be Modern Warfare then Black Ops and Modern Warfare then Black Ops. Like this is the game.

>> Are you saying we're at maximum bloat at this particular moment?

>> Peak bloat.

>> Peak bloat.

>> Hopefully. Yeah.

>> I don't know. Don't bet on them. You

know it's >> I know.

>> I could use up your storage. No problem.

>> Yeah, it's a terabyte.

>> It is a waste of space. It's amazing.

Crazy. Anyway, so it's astonishing. I

didn't put this in the notes, too, but I I did yesterday for the first time ever.

I downloaded Fortnite to a Windows 11 on our own PC, a laptop.

>> Uh 80 gigabytes, but it was still a pretty big game.

>> Yeah.

>> Uh cartoony graphics, whatever. But I

used the Snapdragon control panel to optimize it. It's supposed to be native

optimize it. It's supposed to be native on the system, although I never saw a way to download the native version. I

just got the x64 version. I don't know if it's just part of it. Whatever. It

ran great. Like, it really ran great.

>> So, it was running the emulation. It was

fine.

>> I don't know. Actually, I'm not sure if it was doing >> like there's a big flashing sign when it's running emulation.

>> Well, according to Epic Games, it's native on ARM.

>> Interesting.

>> But the download I got was not didn't say anything. All right. It said x64. I

say anything. All right. It said x64. I

don't know. So, I don't know. But

>> it's interesting.

>> But I ran great and I played I don't know five or seven matches, whatever. I

came in third one time, by the way.

Proud of that.

>> You play badass.

>> Well, I'm probably playing against children, to be frank, but >> but they're better at it than you are.

>> Yeah. Well, no, they're not. Not some of them anyway.

>> Yeah. 97 of them weren't once >> in one game. Yeah.

>> Uh but it was pretty good. So, it's

>> Wait, you got to uh third >> third place. Yeah.

>> Nice. He's just like OG whatever it's called the the base game.

>> I've never I've always died like right away.

>> Yeah, it's it's hard cuz you land with like a pickaxe, you know, like it's like so you got to find the obviously got to find good weapons pretty quick, but >> it's it's okay. It's better than it was.

Like you used to have to sit around and wait, you know, now when you get knocked out of a game, it's like, do you want to just go to a different game? You're

like, yeah, yeah, of course you do.

>> I thought the smarter thing they did, at least at the beginning, was you could watch the game progress for later enjoy.

saw when I was playing like it it would be like Bob is watching you now or observing whatever the turn is like bunch of guys like actually stuck around to watch see if I was going to win and I came in third but

>> I I thought that was clever cuz it cuz otherwise you're the game game over man >> I know you're like no >> that was fast >> yeah it's a good way to learn to watch players finish out >> a game you can build stuff

>> everyone not everyone most of the people I played against were building things >> like a guy the guy would throw a wall up so I couldn't shoot him or whatever and I'm likely I have no idea that I I was just shooting people, but it was pretty good.

>> Fortnite started out as a >> It wasn't It wasn't as toxic as Call of Duty, so I didn't like it as much, but >> No, that's one of the things that makes Fortnite different is is there is that that building component you can >> Yeah. Yeah. It was originally a building

>> Yeah. Yeah. It was originally a building game, became a shooting game later.

>> And it has a you know, it's cartoony looking, so it almost looks like a Disney.

>> Did you uh did you buy a Sabrina Carpenter outfit?

>> No. No, I did not. Um, not 100% sure who that Taylor Swift. Um, but

I know she was on SNL. I

>> No, it's funny because you can play the game as, you know, Taylor Swift, >> right?

>> Yep.

>> Well, don't you have to buy that?

>> So, in Call of Duty, you can you can play as Beas or Butad. You can play as Seth Rogan.

>> Do you have to buy those?

>> Yeah, you do. Yeah. See, this is game purchases. That's where all the money

purchases. That's where all the money is. Yeah. Decorating. At least it's more

is. Yeah. Decorating. At least it's more constructive than pay to win, right?

It's just decorating your character.

Yeah. Well, I was determined not to pay anything. I just wanted to see what it

anything. I just wanted to see what it was like. It was

was like. It was >> I've seen you do that before. Definitely

not pay anything.

>> I don't like to play for content, you know.

>> Um, no, it was it was it was pretty good. Um, Flight Simulator 2024 is now

good. Um, Flight Simulator 2024 is now available on the PlayStation 5. I know

that's a >> big deal for a lot of people. So,

>> it's a huge game.

>> Yep. It literally huge. Like literally

like size of download.

>> There's another half terabyte game, right? It's a beast.

right? It's a beast.

>> Easily. But it's got most of the world's, you know, 3D models.

>> Have you played the new version where you can jump plane, you land the plane, you jump out? So that's the thing. Like

>> I haven't sampled it. I've sort of I stream it. You kind of see what it's

stream it. You kind of see what it's like.

>> It's not my kind of game, but if you watch the trailer for it, the one not the Stranger Things they just came out, but the the the we're here on PS5 thing, >> the the worlds they have are gorgeous.

Like >> beautiful, but you got to get there.

What they don't show in those sequences is all the time to get to those moments that are really >> they must I assume they slipstream that if you want I mean I would hope do a little speeding up but yeah still >> so it's you know it's a beautiful game

and and whatever like get it out in the world and >> super realistic really >> if you really want to get into flying teaches you a lot.

>> Yeah. This is not Xbox related, but it is video game related. And I'm one of those people who I don't like when there are things like audiobooks in a music

app or podcast in a music app or >> games like Netflix has games. Like I

don't want to see ads for games when I'm on Netflix on my phone. Like I to me those are two different things. But

>> this is big tech and whatever.

Everything's eating everything. But they

did just do something that I think is pretty cool. So, Red Dead Redemption is

pretty cool. So, Red Dead Redemption is one of the best reviewed games. Never

created. It's got to be in the top five or 10.

>> Phenomenal game.

>> It's got to be 15 years old. I think it >> I don't know if it was 2010 or 2015, whatever that game come out.

>> Yeah.

>> Still looks good though.

>> Oh, it looks great.

>> They've done up a few remastered versions and so they just did a new one for PlayStation 5, Xbox, Nintendo Switch 2, >> and if you have a Netflix account, you

can play it on an iPhone, an iPad, or an Android device >> for first time.

>> Oh, yeah. That would look >> works with a controller. It looks great.

I installed it on my iPad. Actually, I

can show it to you if you want to see it.

>> Um, it looks it looks great.

>> Wow.

>> This game was so good they sold the soundtrack.

>> Like it was like a good, the bad, and the ugly style. You know,

>> this is Rockstar. I mean, Rockstar really knows how to create paint worlds.

It's a great world.

>> This is neat. I And you could kind of say like, look, it's super old, you know, whatever. It's like, no, it's just

know, whatever. It's like, no, it's just this is still a good game. It's It's

very interesting. So, if you have a Netflix account, you have one of these devices, everyone has one of these devices, and you want to do this, it's included with what you're paying for.

So, >> it's another play mode.

>> Yeah. Pretty cool.

>> It's interesting.

>> And there's always RD already too, right? Which was

right? Which was >> Yeah. So, this right a much bigger.

>> Yeah. So, this right a much bigger.

>> And that's >> Does it look a lot better? Cuz I I must have played the newer one.

>> Yeah.

>> I don't play the original.

>> It probably does, right? I mean, but but when you play on a a small screen like you like if you especially you have a phone, I think the original plus will play great, you know.

>> Yeah, it was fun. You get out, you ride a horse, you make a fire.

>> Yeah.

>> Shoot somebody. It was great game. Great

game. Does Do you think that >> tuberculosis and slowly die?

>> You're dead, man. I had a I had a character I lost in tuberculos.

>> You were killed by a chupacabra.

>> Yeah. Yeah.

>> You were sleeping. Call

>> completely parathetically. Do you think Netflix is going to stay in the game business or is this a failed >> Well, if they buy >> Warner Brothers, I I maybe walking away

from this, but then they did this and I'm like, I don't Maybe they're still >> trying to make it. I I don't pay attention to any of it.

>> But once they when they did this, I was like oh >> well, this is the funny thing because >> you just go to the app store. You don't

you don't launch Netflix and play the game from there. You actually download it.

>> It's just another game. It's just

another game.

>> Just another game.

>> You know what's the Netflix association?

It's just made them a game.

>> If you're if you're if you have Netflix on the device and it has the account there, so you just >> And you already have an account.

>> It just works.

>> Yes. Yeah. But I I don't I didn't understand it. I have a feeling.

understand it. I have a feeling.

>> Well, so this and that's the really fascinating.

>> Think about their model, right? They

they buy content and they put it online and this is what they did here, right?

So some some third party company made did this remastered version. It's got

some Undead Nightmare add- on. etc. They

they were probably different companies or teams working on the different console versions and someone did or someone's did the mobile versions and so you know they probably put it out like who wants to publish this

>> right >> and Netflix is like we'll do it >> probably just like they do >> they have a lot of games >> and they're not streaming I thought oh they're going to stream it but it's not it's just a game

>> it's not I'd never done it before I I like obsinantly ignored the game stuff I hate that that it's in the app like I hate it.

>> I agree.

>> That's my own little attitude problem.

But like >> I my prediction what it does to the battery playing the regular game. It's the same as a regular game.

>> Yeah. I wonder

>> I wonder if it's awful.

>> Look, they're way more powerful games than this. Like some of the newer

than this. Like some of the newer Resident Evil games are in there. I

think um Assassin's Creed is or will be soon where these are these are like AAA games like from you know the past 5 years.

>> They're going to get them on a phone.

>> Yeah, absolutely. like an like a newer iPhone or an iPad have like awesome processors. So much horsepower is in a

processors. So much horsepower is in a phone though.

>> Yeah. I mean it will heat that sucker up. I'm sure it kills the battery but

up. I'm sure it kills the battery but it's >> but it will play like it will play pretty good. I bet

pretty good. I bet >> probably look great too.

>> Yeah.

>> It's amazing. I was very confused by the Netflix story because Friday Netflix announced they bought Warner Discovery >> and then so I talked about it on Twitter

and then Monday >> uh along comes uh David Ellison, Larry Ellison's son and says you know >> we'll see >> I'm going to give you 50% more.

>> How about that?

>> And because they have money from uh you know the Saudi Arabia they have all these sovereign uh wealth funds and >> funds >> they can they can overpay. I think

they're going to overpay for it. Uh,

plus >> it's it said uh sources said that uh Ellison Sky Dance >> went to the president and said, "By the

way, if you approve this merger uh we'll make uh CNN more to your liking."

>> Jeez. Uh

>> well, that's a way to get a good deal.

>> Well, but that is in in an authoritarian world, that's what you do. you you you say, "Hey, you know, you're the one who's going to decide whether or not this gets regulated."

>> None of these companies are good. I'm

not I'm not voting for anyone to win this, but the only thing I will say is the Netflix model, whatever anyone thinks of it. I mean, it's there's a lot more of it. So, it it there are fewer

really good highquality things anymore, but there are still some. This is HBO, you know, there's a this is this is going to be a good body of cont. So, if

they do get it, I mean, I'm sure just like Microsoft 365, I'm sure they'll raise the price eventually to pay for it. But,

it. But, >> well, as long as I'm >> raising conspiracy theories, there's also, this came from Variety, >> the theory that Netflix just wants to put movies out of business.

>> Warner is, it turns out, one of the last movie companies still making movies, >> spending a lot of money on movies. And

the concern in Hollywood is if Netflix buys them, they're going to really >> go.

>> And the only Ted Sanders said, "Yeah, well, the only thing we might change is the the exclusive window cuz there's a window of exclusivity for theaters."

theaters." >> That window has become nothing, right?

>> Well, if you make it a day, you're killing theaters either way cuz people just say, "Well, I'll wait till tomorrow and I'll watch it at home."

>> So, I'm not defending like this is sort of like the A thing. I'm not taking their side or anything like that, but Netflix is one of those democratization of what I'll call movie making or film,

whatever you want to call this, where Hollywood has given up on kind of smaller movies because they're just not profitable and and people aren't going to the movies as much. The theater like actual theater >> suck.

>> So, you only have like Marvel movies, like these big budget movies that >> they know are going to make their money back. So everyone's like, "Oh, we're

back. So everyone's like, "Oh, we're gonna, you know, we're not going to have experimental movies." And it's like,

experimental movies." And it's like, well, actually, I feel like that stuff is more likely to show up on Netflix or HBO Max or one of these.

>> Look at Frankenstein. Look at Kota.

That movie that would never have been in the theaters. Not in 2025, you know?

the theaters. Not in 2025, you know?

>> Yeah. Well, in order to win Academy Awards, they still are putting it in theaters for a week >> just so they can get an Academy Award.

>> But that's the system, right? I mean,

they're playing the >> That's only going to be for a little while longer. So, somebody's saying,

while longer. So, somebody's saying, "Well, why would Netflix kill the content engine?" They're not going to

content engine?" They're not going to kill the content engine. They're still

going to make movies. They're just not going to put them in movie theaters is the idea.

>> Because a movie theater competes with Netflix.

>> Yep.

>> So, >> so there are some good Netflix movies. I

mean, >> Frankenstein would be incredible.

>> Frankenstein is maybe a good one.

>> Yeah.

>> But, you know, even someone like Ryan Reynolds, who I love, if you ever watch like Red Shift, what was that thing called? Red Shift or Red something,

called? Red Shift or Red something, whatever it was, >> some Netflix thing. So, it was him, The Rock, the woman who was Wonder Woman, um Gail >> Galadot. Yeah,

>> Galadot. Yeah, >> Galgadot.

>> They were all paid tens of millions of dollars to be in this hunk of unbelievable crap. And it's like this

unbelievable crap. And it's like this beautiful looking movie that's all backrops from places they never visited.

They weren't there, >> right?

>> Uh, it was supposedly taking place all over the world, but you can tell by they they sent the money and the three people and the rest of it was just garbage. So,

it was beautiful garbage, >> but garbage. So, there's that.

>> What was that?

>> Red notice.

>> Red notice. Thank you. Um, it's

forgettable. It's immediately

forgettable.

>> Yeah.

>> Um, so I don't know. There's going to be good and bad. This

>> Netflix makes some Remember the Greyman was awful.

>> Yep. Yeah. It's another one of those terrible movies.

>> Stupid. But they still have good shows like you know uh Wednesday that that's probably not our demographic exactly but it's really well made great actors it's you know Danny >> they have Knives Out. They have the third Knives Out don't

>> Yep. that's coming out on Christmas Day.

>> Yep. that's coming out on Christmas Day.

I can't wait to see that.

>> So it's good stuff. You know

>> I uh Anyway, we're in a we're in a very very rapidly changing world. That's just

another uh >> for sure. And that's the thing. It's

>> we're all so afraid of change. You know

>> you don't want to get rid of the movie company that made the original King Kong. you know, if that's what and it's

Kong. you know, if that's what and it's like, yeah, but that was 1931, guys.

>> I honestly I just don't want Larry Ellison to own it. That's all I care about.

>> I 100% agree with I don't want him having anything.

>> That's all I care about.

>> Talk about tech billionaires you're concerned about.

>> Yeah, that guy is a a rotting carcass of terribleness.

>> And I know it's his son, David, but look at him.

>> Is it really?

>> Damian Omen Ellison. That guy.

>> I don't know. All right, we're going to take a break and then uh the back of the book is coming up. We've got tips. We do

have an app. We have a runners radio and we have a Pennsylvania >> brown beverage >> and a little bit of story behind it, too. A little bit of a story.

too. A little bit of a story.

>> That's what Okay, let's be clear. I went

totally into the deep rabbit hole. And

>> George Washington drank here.

>> It's going to go for a little while.

George Washington does play into the story.

>> Oh my gosh.

>> I'm in Pennsylvania. I have no choice. I

couldn't I couldn't not. Right.

All right. Well, we'll get to that in just a moment. You're watching uh Windows Weekly with Paul Thorat and Richard Campbell. Our show today brought

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let us talk about your tip of the week. It's the back of the book, Paul.

>> What did you call it?

>> I said hooray. Hooray.

>> Hooray. It's back of the book.

>> Hooray.

>> So, I'm going to mix and match tips and apps because it's the the central tip is just D in certifying Windows 11, right?

I've talked about Tiny 11 Builder a lot lately, but it's not it doesn't do everything. So, you need a couple of

everything. So, you need a couple of other things, but you also need this solution for I already have Windows 11 installed. I

have all my apps installed. It's all

customized. I've got, you know, signed in with my accounts. I just want to I want to deinsertify this thing. I don't

want to rein reinstall from scratch, right? And uh there there are many

right? And uh there there are many solutions for that. Um, I looked at a at least a couple, maybe two or three on hands on Windows over the past year or so, but I just went back to one of the ones that I thought was the one of the

better ones and I wanted to compare it to Tiny 11 Builder. So, over here you have this clean install computer you did with Tiny 11 Builder. Here you have this normal Windows 11 install. Can I get

this to that? And the answer is yes. Uh,

as it turns, I think. I mean so far this one I haven't been using steadily for as much time but I've done it on multiple computers it seems to be the case and so >> working well on ARM too.

>> Yes. So

>> that's cool.

>> Yep. Um yes. So this one is called window 11 to bloat.

>> You can find it on GitHub.

>> It's a PowerShell script. The way it used to work is you would download the script and then you had to you had to type in a specific cam command line to turn off all the controls that prevent you from doing anything terrible to your

computer. It's only for that session.

computer. It's only for that session.

You make the changes and then you close the terminal window and those permissions go away. The way it is now is they actually have this command line you run that does effectively the same

thing. Uh but you just copy the command

thing. Uh but you just copy the command line from the GitHub page, paste it in the terminal and then you go through the script.

um like Tiny 11 Builder there are certain things it doesn't do and it it's in fact they're the same things and so um >> and for the same reason

>> for the same reason mostly so Rufus is instead of using the Microsoft tool to create installation media or just launching the process straight up the ISO >> use Rufus to create the installation

media and it will take away the forced Microsoft account sign in the hardware requirements etc etc there's a bunch of other But those are the big ones. Um,

Microsoft or MS Edge Direct, also available on GitHub, will take away the parts of Windows 11 that require to use Edge, like the widget stories or search

results that always go to Edge, even if you chose Chrome or Brave or whatever.

>> So, you deedify.

>> You deedify. You You can leave edge on there if you want.

>> That's a different story. We'll get to that in a second.

>> Never hurt anybody. But

you can redirect the the Edge links to go to your browser, >> right? To follow the browser default,

>> right? To follow the browser default, >> right? There's that. And the most recent

>> right? There's that. And the most recent one, this I was talking to you about this.

>> Yeah. You were blown away by this.

>> Yeah. And this is one also x86 and uh ARM is called Explorer Patcher. This

one's been around for a long time. Um

used to have a slightly different name, but uh this is just a utility run. It

does a bunch of things, but I do basically one thing, which is I keep the Windows 11 taskbar. I like it the way it is. It's fine. This not that to me is

is. It's fine. This not that to me is not a problem. But Explorer is this app that like by which I mean file explorer um comes up very slowly. It's unreliable

and all these problems are tied to this Win UI front end that they've done in recent years. They instead of rewriting

recent years. They instead of rewriting it, they've taken the old Win32 app and they've modernized parts of it. Not all

of it, just parts of it. the UI parts and they're slower than anything.

They're terrible. So, this thing lets you go back to the Windows 10 or Windows 11 uh versions of File Explorer. Also, a a version the early

Explorer. Also, a a version the early Windows 11 version where they have a non WinUI address bar area, but I just I use Windows 10 that has the big ribbon which is ugly, but you minimize the ribbon.

So, it's a nice kind of streamlined look. Um, these things together

look. Um, these things together create this version of Windows that doesn't nag you, doesn't bother you, doesn't do things wrong, like it works the way you would expect it to work.

Like you click a link and it opens you to your browser. You expect that, right?

Um, tiny 11 Builder and Win 11 bloat both allow you to get rid of Edge if you want to uninstall it, which you can do legally or or you know in the box if you will in Europe, but you can do it

anywhere with these things. And you can get rid of one drive if you want, which you can you can actually just uninstall one drive, but but wind delo 11 delau

does get you to that same place as tiny 11 builder if you wanted to.

>> Cool.

>> Yeah, it's a script. Um, so it's not for everyone, I guess. But the they have three top level options. I never do the first one. The first one is that

first one. The first one is that person's recommendations for what to remove. And I I feel like no, you want

remove. And I I feel like no, you want to go through this um >> think more.

>> Yeah, you can go through a list of apps that are installed on your computer.

Check the ones you want to get rid of.

Get rid will get rid of them, including engine, one drive if that's what you want. Cool. Gets rid of telemetry.

want. Cool. Gets rid of telemetry.

It disables. These are some of these things are things you can just do otherwise, but it gets rid of all the tips, suggestions, all that kind of junk. The all the Bing junk, the uh

junk. The all the Bing junk, the uh window spotlight, dark, you know, whatever. There's a bunch of stuff. Um,

whatever. There's a bunch of stuff. Um,

one there's one little fun thing in here for me and I'm sure there's a regge key.

This is just a reg key. I just never found even looked up. But in doing keyboard shortcuts, sometimes if you hold your finger down too long on it's probably controller. I don't remember

probably controller. I don't remember which key, but you get that sticky keys thing comes up and it makes a horrible bong sound.

>> You can just disable it.

>> Yay.

>> It's like, yay, that's fine. You know,

so it's good.

Um, so I'm going to I'm going to actually look at more of these, but I feel like even where we are today between if you want to do a clean install, do tiny 11 builder with Rufus. Um, if you already

have the install, you don't want to screw around with it or you don't want to reinstall, I should say. You are

going to screw around with it. Um, use

wind 11 to bloat. And then in both in either case use explorer patcher for file explorer and use the ms edge redirect or direct I'm sorry ms edge

direct to you know actually have the thing use your browser like you wanted in the first place right so there it is.

It's all that's pretty much it. I mean

that's that pretty much does anything anyone should ever want. Um I'm going to look at other utilities but I this is this is pretty much it. It's good

>> making a clean version of 111.

>> Yeah. God help us. But

>> it's nice.

>> My life's work.

>> Yeah. Well, now now that it's the only version of Windows.

>> Yeah.

>> Right.

>> Right.

>> It's good to get it in new shape. It

makes it a little happier.

>> Yep.

>> Well, that was very exciting.

>> It's a good one.

>> Maybe we could talk about Rena's radio right now.

>> You want to do that?

>> Why not?

All right. Um, this was I every so often I get a good story show and Liam Wesley, my friend, is an excellent storyteller and when I found out what he'd done

during the Crowd Strike event, I said, "We got to sit down and talk about this." It's a long show, by the way. We

this." It's a long show, by the way. We

went on for 40 minutes because there's just so much to talk about.

>> Wait a minute. Wait a minute. You think

40 minutes is a long show?

>> Well, yeah.

I make half hour show. This was

>> This was the 40. This is 33% longer than usual.

>> You know, systems don't have a lot of time. If my show gets too long, people

time. If my show gets too long, people get grumpy at me. So,

>> yeah, I'm sure people are grumpy at me, but I never listen. So,

>> so Liam has been head was head of engineering for a company called Free Market FX. So, that's a fintech startup.

Market FX. So, that's a fintech startup.

They do foreign currency trading. So,

you know, a lot of their stuff is regulated, you know, real time and so on. And specifically, they did not run

on. And specifically, they did not run the Falcon sensor suite by Crowdstrike.

So, when the crowd event happened which was July of 24 we all remember that exciting day and wiped out a lot of machines you would think those guys were

fine except that they don't live by themselves right they have suppliers and customers and services that dependent on some of them they were disrupted and so

you know the question for a head of engineering when an event like this is are we affected and the answer you know is not that simple to to actually get to. No, we're not a customer of that,

to. No, we're not a customer of that, but and now it's not like all of their vendors and things are are talking about it either. So, he really had to kick off

it either. So, he really had to kick off a call chain to find out who's depending on this, what can we expect to be down, is it a regulatory problem that they have to report to admit that, you know,

part of their services is impaired by other people's outages. So

just the the conversation that we had about all of the thought that had to go into how do we respond to an event even though we're not even a customer of this product because we depend on other people because that's just the nature of

software today. the interleings. It

software today. the interleings. It

really broadened my thinking about just what disaster response even looks like in this day and age in this SAS and and cloud world where your dependencies are bigger than you think and you kind of

want to know the software bill of materials of every company you interact with whether that's possible or not just to be aware of the potential scope of issues. So, uh well worth the 40

issues. So, uh well worth the 40 minutes. Liam's a great storyteller and

minutes. Liam's a great storyteller and it was an unbelievable day for him.

Very nice. It's Runners Radio. This

week's uh Runners Radio. Oops.

Make you full uh came out this morning.

>> Nice.

Incident management. Yeah, that's uh that must have been a interesting.

>> It was a very long day for him and and he happened to wake up really early and so was literally like a half hour ahead of everybody else that day when he saw that it was going on. And immediately,

you know, they had a playbook. They did

know what to do. So, he was working on answering questions before they were asked.

>> It's one of those uh >> one of those days like, you know, you can always ask somebody, do you remember where you were when Kennedy was shot?

That kind of thing. It's one of those days. You remember

days. You remember >> where were you when Crowd Strike Crowd Strike?

>> Crowd Strike Blue screen comput servers all over the world. I would say we feel that same way about Cloudflare going about, but it keeps happening. So start

what day are we talking about?

>> But the but the second one wasn't their fault. So it was that react that really

fault. So it was that react that really awful react.

>> Yeah.

>> Which by the way if you are suffering >> do not throw stones in these situations.

My house is way too much made of glass to toss any stones. All I can do is empathize. I have been the man on fire

empathize. I have been the man on fire too.

>> So >> you've been on pager duty. You know

>> I know how hard it is. It's a very tough day. So,

day. So, >> and sometimes many days.

>> What happens after a tough day?

>> Drinking.

>> Drinking.

>> I get to drink for my friend today.

We'll use the little paper cups. They're

very cute.

>> Uh, this bottle is already here. What is

going on?

>> This is a bottle of Old Farm Pennsylvania straight rye whiskey.

>> Old Farm. Pennsylvania

whiskey.

>> Old Farm, remember? And it's

specifically a Pennsylvania whiskey which got me chasing down >> whiskey making in Pennsylvania, right?

And uh and curiously because it is a rye whiskey. We were just last week when I

whiskey. We were just last week when I was in Lithuania talking about rye. So I

was kind of lubed up so to speak on the rye thinking and just that you know it's an old grain. It's been around a long time and it was actually the original whiskey in America. Now it's not the

first booze that was in America. The

first alcohol manufactured in America would likely be beer because that was just safe to drink versus the water. But

the first distilleries were all rum distilleries. You know, long before the

distilleries. You know, long before the United States was the United States, those colonies on the east coast, the English were growing and making sugar in the Caribbean. And they take the

the Caribbean. And they take the molasses to the colonies in the east and they would make rum. Uh also even all the way back to the 1600s we talk about

original alcohol in the colonies apple cider uh because of the propensity to bring you know apples are originally from Kazakhstan of all flipping things but uh the seeds propagate extremely

well they grow almost everywhere but unless you're grafting apple trees like because apples are inherently genetically unstable the only way you get good tasting apples is from grafting from good tasting apples

>> apples are inherently genetically unstable. Well, that is correct. Which

unstable. Well, that is correct. Which

is to say, if you take the seeds from an apple you like the taste of and you plant them, >> you will not get that apple.

>> That's fascinating, >> right? The way you get that apple is to

>> right? The way you get that apple is to take a branch off of the tree of the good tasting apples and grafted onto another apple tree. And so people not knowing this when they planted all these apples all over the place got terrible

apples. But you know what you do with

apples. But you know what you do with terrible apples? You make them into

terrible apples? You make them into booze.

>> Yeah. There you And you can ferment apples just fine. And in fact, because the water content is so high, you can do apple jacking.

>> Yeah.

>> And apple jacking is just freezing the water out of the the cider to increase the alcoholic concentration. So, you

don't need a still, you don't need anything.

>> No. We used to do that when I I was a kid. We'd get they would we'd go to the

kid. We'd get they would we'd go to the uh apple picking orchard >> and then you'd um and then you'd get a big jug of apple cider and you'd put it on your porch because it was freezing cold

>> and it would slush up and then you get rid of the slush and you got >> skim the ice out and and you get stronger, right? And that's this is the

stronger, right? And that's this is the the way of things. And you can see >> Exactly. I mean it wasn't super

>> Exactly. I mean it wasn't super >> more of a beer. It's a cider.

>> Yeah. But you can see how this even happened by accident where you dump you know apples in a barrel let that back those eventually go soft and ferment and then same process happens right now

we've done it far more intentionally but when you talk about domestic whiskey production in the original colonies it was rye from Europe and there's a good reason for that wi-i which was that rye

grew really well in the northeast in those colder areas uh wheat not so much and corn comes comes later. Corn is

actually a North American crop and it mostly grew on the west side of the Appalachians did not grow well on the east side. So that's we eventually get

east side. So that's we eventually get to corn but initially because it grew absolutely everywhere and it was needed for fodder for animals. It was good for cover and so forth they planted a lot of

rides. Something we talked about last

rides. Something we talked about last week on the Starka episode. Uh barley

also was grown although it's a little tougher to grow and you needed it for beer and bread so you wouldn't drink it as much. The fact that you use rye as a

as much. The fact that you use rye as a cover crop does not even intend to be a eaten because you even growing the versions that aren't particularly good,

but the animals like it. It also is often made into booze first and uh it um so it was far more prevalent and there

was more than you needed and so often they were made it was being made into alcohol early on.

So if you think about the original colonies, right, they are not the same as the states they are today. They're

mostly focused on the east. On the east side of the Appalachians, everything on the west side is very much still Indian territory. In fact, there was negotiated

territory. In fact, there was negotiated treaties that were repeatedly broken to uh to uh clear the to have control of the land on the east side and uh just

the coastal just partly in land. And so

when we talk about Pennsylvania, this is one again one of the very early colonies founded in 18 in 1681. William Penn, the royal land grant. Uh there was already people there in that land grant

including in the southeast there was an area called New Sweden.

And so this is now the province of Pennsylvania in British America. And

Penn was a uh was a bit of an egalitarian. He he established an

egalitarian. He he established an interesting set of laws that with a lot of religious freedom and economic mobility. And he also worked hard with

mobility. And he also worked hard with the the Lape Indians in the area to negotiate more land and starts creating some of the early counties including the Bucks, the Philadelphia and Chester

counties which is roughly where we are today. And those treaties continue

today. And those treaties continue literally for decades largely pushing the Indians further and further west.

Right now the Indian perception of land is not ownership but use. And so they were more flexible in that because there was other land to lose to use but it becomes it reaches a certain point uh

where it becomes a crisis. Now before

the revolution in the in the 1750s the uh American colonies are growing and they're starting to get onto the west side of the uh of the Appalachians. This

is where you get the Ohio Company who's now working with the Irakqua Confederacy which was a collection of fairly organized native groups all and this this is before the Canadian border and

all you that sort of stuff exists and uh this group decides that they want to build a fort and settlement at the confluence of the Alageni and the Monol

Helen rivers. This is where Pittsburgh

Helen rivers. This is where Pittsburgh is today. Okay, this is a there's a

is today. Okay, this is a there's a there's a little triangle point where these two rivers come together become the Ohio River. Uh this scares the French, right, which is be the north part, the northern part about that which

will eventually be Canada, but that point is largely controlled by France.

And again, we talked about this when we were talking about uh Missouri and the the Louisiana land purchase where New France stretched all the way from the

Gulf of Mexico right up to Hudson's Bay.

So, the French response was to build other fortifications further up on the Ohio River area that we now know as Erie, Pennsylvania. Uh, and that's

Erie, Pennsylvania. Uh, and that's around the time that the French and Indian War lights off. Now, this is also called the Seven Years War. Although,

depending on how you measure it, it's either 7 years, 9 years, or 23 years because numbers are hard. Uh, in fact, Winston Churchill calls it the first real world war because the conflict is

really between Britain and France. And

while it may start with the native allies in North America, it also involves a land war in Europe which is the Prussians and the Austrians along with the English and the French and also in India where there's a conflict

between the Moguls and the English and the French there too. So and you know the argument is that the first shots of this world war start in Pennsylvania by

the 22year-old George Washington. So

Washington came for wellto-do family and he felt that it was as appropriate for him to join the militia. And so as the this conflict over what would become

what's known as Fort Dane before the English could build on that site and what would be Pittsburgh, the French pushed them out and they moved out and then the French built the the Fort Dane

in that location. So Washington put together a force to come and push them back and in the process ended up in a battle called the battle of Jumanville

Glenn. Um some call it an ambush may

Glenn. Um some call it an ambush may have just been a surprise. Uh the uh one of the officers was killed in the in the process and Washington himself was

captured but then later released and uh then they were sent back and again these could be called the first shots of the Seven-Year War. Uh about a year later in

Seven-Year War. Uh about a year later in 1755, the British respond by sending uh General Edward Bradock and a full set of

regular troops. Uh now they perceive the

regular troops. Uh now they perceive the British regulars as infinitely superior to the colonial militias and so they couldn't actually join as peers. They

would all be inferior to inferior to any of the regulars. And so Washington who still wants to be involved be uh manages to get himself to be an aid to camp to

the general. So uh uh Edward Bradock.

the general. So uh uh Edward Bradock.

They then head back to the to the same area and and the Manonga Halen uh valley about 10 miles from Fort Decain and there's an accidental conflict again.

They sort of run into each other by surprise and becomes a bit of a rolling battle and the general gets hit. Many uh

Washington even had a couple of horses shot off from him. There's almost a thousand of the British regulars and colonists that are killed. to only about 20 of the French and Indian forces. Uh

Washington miraculously is unharmed.

They found bullets in his jacket, shrapnel in his hair, but no injuries at all. And he uh helps organize the

all. And he uh helps organize the retreat and evacuation very well and is encouraged by the general to uh to pull the forces together. He's louded as the

hero of Monaga and that's sort of his first mark as a young soldier at that point. I think

they make him a colonel. Uh and he uh goes on to continue to be a part of that that conflict right in this area of the valley in the western part of Pennsylvania near Pittsburgh. Um now

largely this is over by 1759 when the French realize they've been cut off at Fort Dane. So they destroy the fort and retreat and then um that re

they reestablishes British control over the area. Washington returns home and

the area. Washington returns home and tenders his resignation from the peninsula entirely surprising everyone.

Uh don't worry he'll do that a few more times. Uh but now has establishes you

times. Uh but now has establishes you know credibility as a as a significant soldier. And one would argue that the

soldier. And one would argue that the debt incurred by the world war the worldwide conflict that is seven years war is one of the main reasons that the English raised taxes on the colonies so

severely to try and pay things off which of course becomes the justification for an American revolution.

Now by the revolution comes around and of course this a lot of this happens in Philadelphia right? This is the first

Philadelphia right? This is the first Continental Congress in 1774 and the western counties including uh West Morland in in Pennsylvania are now

founded and that's when they formed the Continental Army under once again the George Washington is a few years older and they have the Declaration of Independence here and then uh this is by

1776 as the war starts up with the William William Penn's family largely ousted from control of Pennsylvania um things are are reorganized when the Delaware count uh Delaware part of

Pennsylvania spins off to be its own state. And so that Delaware becomes the

state. And so that Delaware becomes the first state to ratify the constitution in 1787. And then Pennsylvania I of

in 1787. And then Pennsylvania I of course Washington becomes president 1789. And and of course both George

1789. And and of course both George Washington and John Adams are headquartered in Philadelphia until the White House and Washington DC are

actually defined. So by 1789, you got

actually defined. So by 1789, you got this new federal government and like every other conflict you're in, they incurred a lot of debt. Cheers.

>> By the way, those are the exact same paper cups that George Washington used.

>> Totally 100%.

>> The old paper cup.

>> So the US Fed the US Fed has about $54 million debt. The various states

million debt. The various states combined have about 25 million worth of debt. And if you've ever watched

debt. And if you've ever watched Hamilton, you know that Alexander Hamilton convinces the Congress to consolidate all the debt in 1790.

He's put in as many import duties as he feels are reasonable to try and pay his debt down. So he proposes the first

debt down. So he proposes the first excise tax on domestically produced goods and he focuses on distilled spirits

largely because they're kind of a luxury product anyway and he figured it would be the least objectionable tax.

Uh, now it's 1790. There's about 75,000 people living in western Pennsylvania centered around Pittsburgh. And part of the rules of this tax, you got to

realize the west part of Pennsylvania at this time is the hinterlands. It's

nowhere.

>> It still is, by the way.

>> Yeah, I like Pittsburgh. Pittsburgh is

good fun. They got a hell hockey team, too. And part of the rule of this tax is

too. And part of the rule of this tax is you have to pay for it in species in coin. And in that part of the world at

coin. And in that part of the world at that time, coins are just rare. Most

products are paid for in barter. Often

in whiskey, like that's kind of a normal way to do things. So the tax is set up in two different ways. There's a flat fee per still, which is fairly expensive, but it's a flat rate for the

whole year or you pay by the gallon. And

so big producers all pay flat fees because they produce enough to that the cost of the tax relative to the amount of alcohol produces reasonable. The

small producers can't afford to do it.

So all these small producers in the west are are really resisting it and they refuse to pay the tax and so they get fined and if you get a fine you can protest to show that it's unfair. But

the only way to do that is to go to a federal court which would be in Philadelphia some 300 miles away which you'll have to do by horse which takes

time costs money somewhere to stay. So

again, the west feels very, you know, unfairly treated and they fight back.

And the way they they a lot of these guys are veterans of the Revolutionary War, right? They feel like it's taxation

War, right? They feel like it's taxation without representation once again. But

one of the things they do is they just discourage anyone from being a tax collector. They also go after anybody

collector. They also go after anybody who would dare rent space to a tax collector. And so literally years go by

collector. And so literally years go by without any tax collectors in and around Pittsburgh and western Pennsylvania.

There's also a new Indian war going on, the Northwest Indian War, and there's not a lot of support coming out of the federal government to protect the colonists on the on the west side as well. So, they're good. They're feeling

well. So, they're good. They're feeling

pretty hard done by. And the focal point around all this is within a year or so.

This is 1791, is these new uh these new counties like Alageney, which is where Pittsburgh is in Fet and Washington and Westerland.

uh some a guy named Robert Johnson who actually tries to be a tax collector in the area is grabbed by a mob and tred and feathered which sounds hilarious except that it actually involves spreing

spreading hot tar on the guy like it's really freaking horrible and anybody that tries to support him is also tred and feathered so uh it gets pretty violent and uh Hamilton's freaking out because

it's you know questioning the federal government entirely like it undermined the whole thing and so they end up putting out uh uh more proclamations on this and it's the whole situation peaks by 1794. It's been four years since the

by 1794. It's been four years since the thing was down. There's hundreds of men involved on both sides and it finally gets to a level where they call it a

sedition or rebellion. And so uh Justice James Watson uh calls out the militia.

Washington, who's now the president, actually leads that militia and he rolls out with 12,000 troops in his huge display of force and negotiates without

a shot fired the end of the risky rebellion. Uh so

rebellion. Uh so >> it's the fun rebellion.

>> Yeah. Um you know, and again, I think Washington did his best to handle it. It

was a very difficult situation. The

taxes are of course amended. They get

away with the species requirement. They

allow for trials in state courts instead of just federal courts. So it becomes a little bit more practical. The whole

thing's very tough. And in all of this comes the story of making Pennsylvania whiskey. So if you talk about the

whiskey. So if you talk about the original names for Pennsylvania whiskey going back that far, you talk about a German immigrant named Heinrich Oelzer

who will be anglicized to Henry Overhalt. Overhalt's a very well-known

Overhalt. Overhalt's a very well-known name in whiskey. So he had been distilling in Buck County.

>> Old Overhold.

>> Old overhold.

>> Old overhold.

>> So uh he'd been distilling in Buck County. That's in eastern Pennsylvania.

County. That's in eastern Pennsylvania.

And as the chaos of the 1790s settles out, he and all of his extended family and others moved to West Morland County.

So Condisogga wagons, you know, the big covered wagons and so forth to go 250 plus miles through dirt roads largely built by the army through the Revolutionary War. and the Whiskey

Revolutionary War. and the Whiskey Rebellion all the way to West Morland County, right where all of those battles for uh during the Indian War and the

Whiskey Rebellion had taken place. Uh

they buy a huge amount of land in that area. B multiple families setting up

area. B multiple families setting up simultaneous. This area is now known as

simultaneous. This area is now known as West Overton. Uh now uh Henry Overhalt

West Overton. Uh now uh Henry Overhalt does make whiskey, but it's his son Abraham Overhalt or a Overhalt that becomes sort of famous in the whiskey business. He and his brother started it,

business. He and his brother started it, took over from their father at one point, but he eventually buys the brother out in 1810 and makes over Holt whiskey, sells it all through the Civil War, buy builds additional distilleries

in areas like Broadford. He finally

passes away in 1870. His family takes it on and then it's handed off to another famous name in the area, Henry Clayfrick, who takes it over. He's a

grandson to he is related in the family.

She's got a different last name, but he is related to a um and he makes he gets a relationship. He partners up with a

a relationship. He partners up with a guy named Andrew Melon, one of the original robber baron types, 1881. And

Melon, he becomes secretary of the treasury uh in 1921. So that's when prohibition comes in. And so he gets a medicinal license for overhaul to maintain production through that whole

thing. By the way, this that original

thing. By the way, this that original farm and all this facility and so forth uh in the 1920s was made into a museum.

You can go to it today. And uh Overhalt was then acquired by National Installers in 1935 after uh prohibition was over which is later acquired by Beam and Santoi

uh in the 1980s. And so today Beam still makes a now makes a whiskey called a overhold uh Monangahella mash.

And again they're talking about that particular reason and what what makes it distincted. It's a mash bill of 80% rye

distincted. It's a mash bill of 80% rye and 20% maltted barley which is very much the same mash bill that Abraham would have made in the early 1800s. But

does it really follow what exactly is monga mongana hella whiskey? So first

thing you notice is it's a whiskey made in America with no corn in it, right?

It's rye and barley but it was made in a different kind of still. We've

only ever talked about pot stills and column stills, but in 1800 the column still hasn't been invented yet. And pot

stills are not particularly efficient, especially with rye because rye foams so much. So they use a different kind of

much. So they use a different kind of still, a still that's essentially not known today called a threechamber still.

And that three-chamber still will only put out about 50% alcohol at the end of its processing, which is pretty low for typical barreling. But then they'll put

typical barreling. But then they'll put it into wooden barrels in dunage uh uh storage which is your earth and floors to sort of moderate temperature and

under those conditions after four years of aging still 50% really doesn't lose a lot of alcohol that way. Now I until I done this research I had never heard of a three-chamber still. So I did a lot of

digging on this and I'm not alone.

There's a guy named Todd Leopold out of Colorado who is a uh a whiskey producer and historian who was also fascinated about it and has actually built one because they largely all disappeared

during prohibition. But it's actually a

during prohibition. But it's actually a kind of column still that has four distinct chambers in it. The topmost one is just a preheater. They put uh the

wash into it and warm it up with a with a coil coupe. The lower three chambers each are a kind of small still. The

bottommost chamber, chamber three, has been run the longest. So they're

literally moving from st layer to layer and running the still for extended periods of time. Although each given run, it's only about 20 minutes. And so

they'll quickly take the heads, hearts, and tails out and empty the chamber three and then move everything content in chamber 2 down to chamber three.

Everything in chamber one down to chamber two. And then the stuff that's

chamber two. And then the stuff that's in the preheater goes down to chamber one. And then they fill the preheater

one. And then they fill the preheater with more of the uh mash and go again.

And so it's heated by steam that stacks through the different chambers. And it's

actually the steam that carries the alcohol. So this is relatively low

alcohol. So this is relatively low temperature steam, below boiling. Uh but

it's got enough heat in it that it's picking up alcohol, lots of reflux involved, and then ultimately goes through those coils at the top, which is where the preheater is before it goes into condenser and they collect the alcohol.

So these cycles are really short.

They're about 20 minutes, but they run all the time. So it's sort it's not as continuous as a column still, but it's a heck of a lot faster than a pot still.

But it means that there's multiple treatments taken to the same mash in each of those chambers. And so it pulls a lot more flavor out of rye. So you're

running at a lower temperature with a lot less urgency. So you don't have the foaming problems, but you do get to really extract flavors deeply. And this

is because there's a more there's more things going on in the rye than just the starch being converted into sugars.

Which brings up our next issue, which is that modern cereal rye has been hybridized and optimized to increase its starch levels by from where it used to

be about 60% in the old style rise is over 80% today at the expense of a bunch of flavor. And so if you're really going

of flavor. And so if you're really going to make a traditional Pennsylvania Managa Helen rye, you need one of these old rise, right? So not the Dankos or

the Hasletters or the current ones, you need a low starch rye. And back in those days, the popular rye in the area was called a Rosen rye. Uh and it's making a bit of a comeback today, although most

of the places that are making the rye are actually down in Kentucky. Uh but

that guy Todd Leopold used a bruisy rye, which is only about 60% starch. If you

got to use a third more to get the same amount of alcohol out of it, but it gives you a completely different flavor.

And again, you would not use that rye in a pot or column still, you need the three chamber still. So, you have this combination of a different kind of rye and a different kind of still to make a

really special kind of whiskey that I don't think anybody's made yet.

Leopold's done his first run with this stuff. It's called the Leopold

stuff. It's called the Leopold threechamber riot. Again, it's out of

threechamber riot. Again, it's out of Colorado, so you wouldn't really want to call it Pennsylvania whiskey. Good luck

finding a bottle. He only released an edition in 2022 and the last time I saw any bottles of it, $250.

>> That is not this. This is a Pennian ry and I will happily pour for you, my friend. Yes,

friend. Yes, >> sir.

>> But it's got a funny story to it. Uh, this

particular rye is made by is owned by someone named KR Overhold Critchfield.

So this is a woman who's an author and a historian who has direct relation back to the overholds and uh so she tells lots of stories in that space and she decided that she

wanted to have her own spirit and so she registered the trademark in 2016 for old farm uh Pennsylvania ride. Now she has no ability or or any competence I think

in actually making whiskey.

She did the production out of Mountain Laurel Spirits which is in Bristol, Pennsylvania. And they follow the

Pennsylvania. And they follow the traditional mash bill. The original

versions were only aged for 6 months.

They apparently were not very good. In

2019, she made this version. This is a version made by Hidden Still out of Hershey, Pennsylvania. And again, they

Hershey, Pennsylvania. And again, they follow they it's a pretty traditional mash bill. 86% rye, 14% malta barley,

mash bill. 86% rye, 14% malta barley, aged for 2 years, bottled at 40% and only about 30 bucks. And as we have been drinking this,

>> when I talk about a rye, we usually talk about it in the context of bourbon. And

it's very, we talk about the rye being the spicy part, right? It's got a lot of sharp flavors. This is not that sharp,

sharp flavors. This is not that sharp, right? It's got a distinct flavor to it,

right? It's got a distinct flavor to it, but it doesn't come It's not really hot.

It's only 40%. It It's pretty smooth, but it's got a different dynamic to it, too. It's a very different style of

too. It's a very different style of whiskey. It's also only available in

whiskey. It's also only available in Pennsylvania right?

>> So, I I I include a link in the show notes, but that link really only leads to an online store to buy it, although it's available in a few shops here in Pennsylvania. Now, in Italy, Hidden

Pennsylvania. Now, in Italy, Hidden Stills, Hidden Still has a bunch of their own product as well, which they sell more widely. If you go looking for Hidden

widely. If you go looking for Hidden Stills, you'll find it, but you won't find this. This is an odd duck. This is

find this. This is an odd duck. This is

somebody's personal pet project to have a brand. They're leveraging off the fact

a brand. They're leveraging off the fact that they're related to the overhalts and to that original farm back in the west. Certainly no old schooled to

west. Certainly no old schooled to anything, but nobody at this point is really making a true Pennsylvania rye.

But the ingredients are all there. You

know, Leopold's doing it out of Colorado. I think if someone would take

Colorado. I think if someone would take the cues from him and actually set up shop properly in Western Pennsylvania, you could bring back a 200-year-old rye

whiskey. And I'd love a bottle of that.

whiskey. And I'd love a bottle of that.

I I note that it's made in Hershey, Pennsylvania which >> is a town that smells like chocolate.

>> That's right. It's a chocolate down.

Does >> the chocolate leak into the >> Not a bit.

>> It's got a little bit of an apple flavor honestly.

>> It does, doesn't it? Yeah, it's got a little sweetness to it. It's um

>> This is really pleasant stuff to drink, but >> Old Farm Pennsylvania, right?

>> Old Farm Pennsylvania whiskey. And like

I said, it's just a branding exercise that's being made by a third party that he's she's already shifted once.

>> It's hardly a heritage whiskey.

>> Yeah.

>> But it does uh you know, there's nothing wrong with it. And it and it definitely led me down this path of >> the amazing whiskey culture that once existed that was again totally destroyed by prohibition, right?

>> Uh along with all particular kind of still. By the way, those three chamber

still. By the way, those three chamber stills.

>> Yeah. I've seen drawings of them made of wood.

>> Wow.

>> Because they run at such low temperatures, they literally could take modified barrels and assemble them into a still.

>> Wow.

>> Um now, um what Todd Leopold's done, and I I should if you go searching for Todd Leopold in that whole story of the three chamber still, you'll find it. Uh he had it made properly out of copper by Venom,

which is a American uh steel manufacturer. So it does seem like in a

manufacturer. So it does seem like in a time when we're really interested in these kinds of heritages, when we like the old grains and we like original experiences, this is a experience I

think screaming to be made. It may have already been done. They just it's going to take a few years for us to even know about it, but you know the heritage.

>> Interesting.

>> Yeah. Remember how much fun we had with the Missouri whiskey holiday?

>> You know, >> I think Pennsylvania could be doing the same thing.

>> Yeah, absolutely. Absolutely.

>> Well, my friends, uh, you have a show to do, Richard. You're going to go do your

do, Richard. You're going to go do your livenet rocks >> net rocks lives in about an hour.

>> Very nice. Paul, you have a nap to take, I believe. So,

I believe. So, >> a what?

>> Sorry, what to take?

>> Never mind.

>> So, I will bid you a fond due till next week. We do Windows weekly uh every Wednesday 11:00 a.m. Pacific,

2:00 p.m. Eastern, 18, sorry, 1900 UTC.

Uh we stream it live in the club, of course, in the club, Twit Discord, but you can also watch it on YouTube and Twitch and X.com and Facebook and LinkedIn and kick. Uh if you don't want to watch live on demand versions of the

show available at our website, twit.tv/ww.

twit.tv/ww.

There's a YouTube channel with all the video and there's also, you know, we're a podcast so you can subscribe at any podcast client. Choose audio or video or

podcast client. Choose audio or video or both and you'll get it automatically.

You don't have to think any more about it. Just listen every week. That's all

it. Just listen every week. That's all

we ask. A special thanks to our Club Twit members this uh this time of year.

I'd like to be really thankful and grateful to them for making this possible. We wouldn't be here this year

possible. We wouldn't be here this year if it weren't for you being here this year. So, thank you. And if you're

year. So, thank you. And if you're interested in joining the club, twit.tv/club TV/club. We do have a

twit.tv/club TV/club. We do have a coupon for 10% off now through Christmas Day. So, now would be a good time if

Day. So, now would be a good time if you're not a member uh to consider joining. Next week, we'll do a regular

joining. Next week, we'll do a regular show.

>> Yeah, I'll be home for the first time in 10 weeks.

>> Sorry.

>> You'll be home. Next week's show will be from home. Okay.

from home. Okay.

>> First time in 10 weeks.

>> I mean, I'll also be home for the first time in 24 hours. What's the big deal?

And then the following week, which is New Year's Eve, we have a special show which we recorded earlier this week. I

feel like I just saw you guys two days ago. Oh,

ago. Oh, >> yeah.

>> But it was a lot of fun just story.

>> Whiskey, too.

>> Yeah, there was a nice bottle of whiskey. There was a fire in the

whiskey. There was a fire in the fireplace.

>> Clothing. Yeah.

>> Santa came to visit.

>> Uh anyway, that'll be our December 31st show. And then we're back in business on

show. And then we're back in business on January 7th. So,

January 7th. So, >> thank you very much.

>> This month is disappearing.

>> Yeah. That's

>> fast. Get you. My Christmas shopping is done. I'm pleased to say it's never been

done. I'm pleased to say it's never been done so quickly.

Um, thank you everybody. We will see you next time on Windows. Oh, I didn't say Paul Thorat.com.

Paul Thorat.com.

Don't steal his stuff. Okay. And his

books are about little sensitive and his books including the field guide to Windows 11 and Windows everywhere are at leanpub.com. Richard Campbell of

at leanpub.com. Richard Campbell of course at net rocks. and you'll see that show he mentioned earlier there, but soon you'll see uh his uh special live

episode of Net Rocks. So, runradio.com. I think I

Net Rocks. So, runradio.com. I think I said it wrong. Runisradio.com. It's the

website.net rocks is the show you're doing next. Thank you everybody. We'll

doing next. Thank you everybody. We'll

see you next time. All you winners, all you dozers on Windows Weekly. Bye-bye.

Hey hey hey.