Perfectionism Creates the Chaos it's trying to Prevent

The idea of perfectionism is is fear-based. And because it's fear-based,

fear-based. And because it's fear-based, we learn less. We learn slower. All of

that happens when we're in that binary thinking and when we're in that false end.

>> Perfectionism is predictive of all the same negative health outcomes as stress.

>> The internal mind frame of being perfect is extremely chaotic.

>> That if I was living right now the life that I thought would be perfect for me, it would be a miserable life for me now.

This week on the art of accomplishment, we're talking about perfectionism. What

it is, where it comes from, and how it's creating stagnation in your life, in our lives, in organizations, and in society.

Over the past 30 years in Western societies, perfectionism has increased about 33%.

>> And it doesn't mean things have been getting more perfect. It just means that we've been getting a lot more anxiety, depression, eating disorders. All of

these things are downstream of perfectionism. Perfectionism is

perfectionism. Perfectionism is apparently not preventative of these things like you would think if you were a perfectionist. It's actually a risk

a perfectionist. It's actually a risk factor >> for all sorts of mental health outcomes that we don't want.

>> Yeah.

>> So, what's what's going on there?

>> Yeah.

>> What is perfectionism?

>> It's a reaction to fear and to try trying to control a situation and make it so that it's less chaotic in them.

therefore creating the chaos. I mean,

obviously perfectionism is somebody who's trying to get something perfect, >> trying to get something exactly right.

And of course, right away there's an issue with that, which is your mind says you need to do it perfectly, but there's actually your mind won't actually define what perfect is.

>> So no matter what you do, it will always not be perfect.

>> Let's just like back up for a second before we just buy that whole sale. I

mean, there are certain things that like >> need to happen in certain ways. For

example, the the James Web Space Telescope right?

>> Had to be done perfectly, had to be launched perfectly, had to be built perfectly, designed perfectly, deployed.

>> The telescope story is amazing and I would love you to tell it. But the I am very very confident if you would have gotten another group of scientists

together to do that and it would have and that it would have been successful, the telescope would not look the same.

>> So multiple ways to do the same thing here.

>> Yeah. So which one's perfect? So that's

the weird thing about perfectionism is perfect. Seems like there is a idea of

perfect. Seems like there is a idea of there is one way to do it. And that's

what the mind tells us when we're doing it. There's a way to do it where it will

it. There's a way to do it where it will be perfect. But there is not a way to do

be perfect. But there is not a way to do anything that is perfect. And even

within whatever tolerance windows you have, there's probably infinite ways to do it. And this is what the mind forgets

do it. And this is what the mind forgets in that moment because the mind is in fear. Perfectionism is fear-based. And

fear. Perfectionism is fear-based. And

just like all fear, it does two things to the mind. One, it becomes binary.

There's a way to do it and there's there's a right way to do it and a wrong way to do it. That's part of how fear works is that binary thinking. And then

the other thing that it does is it gives you a false end. That telescope for instance, if I recall correctly, overbudget, not perfect, delays, not

perfect, all sorts of not perfect things, right? And but it took time like

things, right? And but it took time like to get to the place where they it it it hit inside of that window of tolerance you were speaking about. And there was like lots of iteration just scientifically. Oh, let's try this. No,

scientifically. Oh, let's try this. No,

that didn't work. Let's try this. It

didn't work. Let's try this. And it

didn't work. Right. And so if you were trying to get every one of your experiments perfectly and the data shows this that you're like you're teams that are trying to get things perfectly are something like 30% or something like

that less productive than teams that are are more interested in iteration or excellence or or other stuff. So that so

it's just the idea of perfectionism is is fear-based and because it's fear-based we learn less we we we learn slower. we don't get as good results.

slower. we don't get as good results.

All of that happens when we're in that binary thinking and when we're in that false end.

>> So that would explain why perfectionism is predictive of all the same negative health outcomes as stress.

>> Correct. Yeah.

>> Yeah. It is stress.

>> It is stress. A and it creates itself.

Meaning, so usually when you look at people who have, this isn't all the time, but usually when you look at people who have a high perfectionism tendency, it's it's their reaction to a

chaotic childhood, >> right? And so and and so and it was

>> right? And so and and so and it was usually chaos that wasn't particularly controllable. So it could look a couple

controllable. So it could look a couple of ways. One of the ways that that could

of ways. One of the ways that that could look is alcoholic parent or mentally ill parent and everything was chaotic. It

can also look like they were criticized but not for a consistent reason, right?

It's like it wasn't criticized because your hair wasn't perfect. It was

>> well, I did exactly what you wanted with my hair, but I'm still getting criticized, right? So, it's just like

criticized, right? So, it's just like this. It's because the parent feels bad

this. It's because the parent feels bad about themselves and the way they're handling it is criticizing the kid. It

has nothing to do with the kid. So, this

is the reaction to to not wanting to feel out of control. And if you think about it in a golden algorithm perspective, which is the thing that we want to the feeling that we are trying

to avoid, we invite in the exact way that we're trying to avoid it.

>> Perfectionism is trying to control something, not to not feel that out of control feeling. And the way we do it is

control feeling. And the way we do it is to try to get it exactly right. And

trying to get it exactly right creates all sorts of chaos. For instance, just we've already talked about this. If you

are a team that's in the perfectionist team, then that team is going to be less successful than the non-perfectionist team, which is more chaos.

>> You're not producing. You're not meeting your goals. You're not doing it well

your goals. You're not doing it well enough. You feel more overwhelmed,

enough. You feel more overwhelmed, right? Because you're setting up a

right? Because you're setting up a situation in your mind the same way that you was set up in in your household, which is you can't get it right. Perfection. You

can't get it perfect. So, you can't get it right. So that in itself is is like a

it right. So that in itself is is like a certain amount of chaos. Trying to get something that you can't get is is right that creates chaos. The other

thing that creates chaos is that when a human being is trying to get something perfect, they usually are trying to get everything about the thing perfect,

which is a very ineffective way of getting something right. So, what I mean to say is >> if I'm going to do something um in

marketing, I'm going to I'm going to go to like three or four principles. If I'm

going to run a company, I'm going to go three, four, or five principles. And

what those principles are are things that I know that if I get them right, everything else is going to work out in in the wash.

>> Everything else is going to fall out of that. So if I know for instance that I

that. So if I know for instance that I feel deeply connected with my customer, I know that my product is going to be a lot better, that they're going to feel like we care about them. It's going to

be better customer service. So I focus on how do we create connection with the customer.

If you're trying to get it perfect, perfect customer service, you've lost track of the fact that connection is actually the main thing. You're

thinking, did I say the exact right thing on the phone call? Did do I have the perfect script for all the people to talk to all the customers? What are the you know like what's the voice quality

of my customer service people? How

what's the response time? Blah blah blah blah. And you can't get it all right and

blah. And you can't get it all right and then you've lost track of the really important thing.

>> Right.

>> Right. Trying to have the perfect marriage. This is a great example of it.

marriage. This is a great example of it.

Trying to have the perfect marriage >> like never works.

If you just go into any house where someone's like trying to have the perfect marriage, it's just freaking hell. It's Allen there. And

hell. It's Allen there. And

>> that's the beginning of many drama shows movies.

>> Exactly. Right. So, so because you've lost track of the most important thing, which is love. Like, who cares what the house looks like if you've got love?

>> Yeah. So, from that perspective, it sounds like perfectionism is simply overfocusing on not the highest leverage point. Like for example, like you're

point. Like for example, like you're talking about like if we walk in and we facilitate a team and I'm worried about getting the words right and I'm worried about like did we hit all the points on

did I say all the little bullet points to the to the exercise that's not going to result in the same outcome as if we if I'm paying attention to what's happening for people and I'm really

feeling what's going on in the room and tracking what people what's what's the emotional arc that people are on.

>> Yeah. Yeah. So, for instance, like when I'm doing coaching videos, I'm focused on is my heart open? Am I following them?

Am I'm making sure I'm not trying to get them anywhere. If I do those three

them anywhere. If I do those three things, everything else works out.

>> Mhm.

>> Everything else becomes automatic. And

yes, I improve as a coach over time and all those little things improve. But

because I am not trying to get it perfect and I'm focused on those three things, I actually get to iterate more, which actually gets me to higher and higher windows of tolerance over time.

>> So you're you're following something.

There's something you're following just like building a telescope. There's laws

of physics and there's principles of design that you follow. You've learned

like these have been developed over Yes.

a very long period of time and people use them. principles of

use them. principles of >> and you can't find them if you're into perfectionism.

>> Yeah.

>> You can't find them because you're trying to get everything right. And then

the other piece about it is that you lose track of context. On one level, the context, you can't see the forest through the trees. You can't see the three things that you have to pay

attention to to actually have the best effect. But the other thing is you're

effect. But the other thing is you're not looking around at the wider context because you're so focused on the context you're focused on. So, if I'm completely focused on getting the email correct,

I'm not thinking about when the best time to send the email is. If I'm trying to figure out the perfect time to like the perfect system for emails about timing and getting the wording correct

and doing all that stuff, then I'm not thinking about, oh, what is the emails, what's the result in the company that I want from the email. And if I'm not if I'm focused on that, there's always a

bigger context that you're also missing if you're into perfectionism because because fear like when you think about your visual field under fear, it narrows. It gets very constrained. It's

narrows. It gets very constrained. It's

binary again. It has a false end again.

You're constraining reality into this very tight box and and therefore you're not able to actually do the best work.

>> Yeah. And come coming to think of that constraint, even if you complete perfectly the plan that you laid out, y >> it's still a limited plan. It's still

the only >> it's still the plan that you could come up with with the consciousness that you had when you started, not the consciousness that's evolving throughout the process through experience and innovation.

>> That's a great point. Yeah. Yeah. But

what you're what I hear you're saying is that doing any project is a learning process. And if you're getting if you're

process. And if you're getting if you're trying to make it perfect, then there's the assumption that you already know what the end state is, which means you can't learn.

>> And if if I was living right now the life that I thought would be perfect for me at 39 when I was 18, it would be a miserable life for me now.

>> Totally. Right.

>> I could I could hit all those strokes.

>> Yeah.

>> All those brush strokes and it wouldn't >> it would feel constraining. if you'll

>> yeah perfectionism and evolution are an interesting thing because on one level it doesn't square meaning there's nothing perfect in evolution everything's constantly evolving and so

that like how do you even define perfectionism in it and yet there's some way in which those chaotic systems like evolution like life on earth there's a perspective where it's like unbelievably perfect more perfect than anything

>> and ordered >> and ordered >> yeah it's almost as though what we see as chaos from our human perspective from whatever limited perspective we have is

simply an ignorance of whatever broader context that there actually is the the actual underlying dynamics that we're not able to perceive. There's a book I read a while

perceive. There's a book I read a while back called Seeing Like a State. And it

talks about how when colonizers came to Africa and they were trying to figure out how to produce yields for the resources that they were trying to grow.

They saw the way that locals were growing plants and growing crops. And to

them it looked like chaos because you've got like the beans mixed with the whatever mixed with and it just >> I think it's actually beans, squashes, and corn.

>> Yeah.

>> In in the Hopi reservation it's those three things were planted together.

Yeah. Yeah.

>> Yeah. Yeah. So there's certain things that are they didn't see that there are certain things that are planted together in certain ways that might look quite disordered from a very sharp right

angled boxy kind of logical mindset, >> right? but actually were really

>> right? but actually were really following the highly complex order of nature that had been discovered over many many generations of

>> really paying attention and attuning to the land which bringing this back to perfectionism as a fear response.

>> Yeah.

>> If you if you were to assume >> that everything that you're looking at including your unfinished project or your unstarted project your blank page >> Yeah. and you see it as perfection and

>> Yeah. and you see it as perfection and you ask how do I connect with this that's a very different thing from >> right yeah yeah yeah yeah >> how do I impose my idea of perfection on this

>> I think that goes into that really deeply that the one of the solutions for perfectionism is to take a different perspective and say oh

is how is my appro it's not how do I get it perfect it's how do I change my approach >> so that approach can be connection I I think is what I find to be the most effective. The approach can also be say

effective. The approach can also be say excellence which means how do I just constantly improve or which means how do I do my best work or um the the the

change can be oh what's the process what's the process I would enjoy what's the process that I think will get us to the conclusion the best. Any of those things work a lot better than

perfectionism because you're seeing it you're seeing a broader context in it.

seeing like the the how you get from one place to another rather than I know what this is supposed to look like and now my job is to try to make it look which is by the way extremely [ __ ] arrogant,

>> right? It's really arrogant to think

>> right? It's really arrogant to think that you know what perfection is.

It's extremely arrogant to think you can get to perfection. It's extremely

arrogant to to assume that your idea of perfection is actually what matters to other people or is right. So the whole

the whole thought process of perfection is just full of holes.

>> Yeah.

>> It's just like that it doesn't exist.

>> Okay. So there's there's the thought process. We've been talking about the

process. We've been talking about the perfectionist mindset and then there's something that's kind of coming out here like the excellence orientation, the orientation towards iteration and learning. Yeah.

learning. Yeah.

>> And that's talked about a lot in Silicon Valley for example. There's this like fail fast concept. But what I noticed is that in in leaders and founders, it's not just >> adopting a new mindset.

>> It's not as simple as that. It's

something much deeper. And so I want to get >> closer to the to the emotional component here. They're talking about the fear and

here. They're talking about the fear and they're talking about the the childhood circumstances that create the perfectionism.

>> So, how does somebody go from perfectionism to in what we might call an excellence orientation >> emotionally? How what what is the

>> emotionally? How what what is the emotional journey >> to get through get through that perfectionism into into connection with what they're doing? often times there's

some removal of love, criticism, attack or something like that which people are trying to avoid. The chaotic system that they're trying to avoid is what is the

fear that creates the perfectionism.

Obviously, the first step is to see that that that chaos is internal. Like the

the internal mind frame of being perfect is extremely chaotic.

Like if you just listen to your internal >> Oh yeah.

>> voice.

>> Yeah. It's a loud screaming.

No. No. That's exactly right.

>> You're basically living in the way that everything is wrong rather than >> Yeah.

>> seeing how it's right.

>> Incredibly chaotic internally. And so

the first thing is to is to see what it's like to not have that internal relationship with yourself. And we can't go into that. I mean that we go into that forever, but there's a voice in the

head podcast that people can go to that would be helpful for that. And then

>> um so that's a big thing that moving fear and we have the fear podcast around that that would be really helpful is like having somebody actually feel the fear and be present with the fear whether it's through emotional inquiry

or whether it's through the expression of that fear through shaking. moving

that fear is going to be a really healthy thing for them to do to get to the other side of perfectionism.

Intellectually, it's really doing what we're doing at the beginning of the episode is to see through that the idea that there like >> the the mind says be perfect, but that

it can't define perfect. And if you get to perfect, if you get to the thing that the mind said was perfect, the mind changes the goalpost because the mind is setting up that

chaos for you. And so it's going to change the goal. And so to see that to see that like, oh, I got to get this perfect gets replaced with there's no such thing as perfect. I

can't get it perfect. This is a setup.

This is a trap.

>> It's going to make me less effective.

I'm going to learn slower. If you know all that stuff, then the mind can't really like attach to the idea of perfect, which is really important on the gut level. I think it's really

important to understand that you're under attack. And so that's another way

under attack. And so that's another way in which that golden algorithm works which is I'm under attack by myself. I

perceive a threat from the outside world. And I I know there's some data on

world. And I I know there's some data on like the threat that that it's a like we in the brain perfectionism is like a threat.

>> Activates the threat networks activates the amydala.

>> Exactly. Turns off creative problem solving. Exactly. Prefrontal cortex.

solving. Exactly. Prefrontal cortex.

Yeah.

>> And so to and so that threat is a gut thing. It's a nervous system thing. And

thing. It's a nervous system thing. And

it is to and it's like how do I react when that when I feel that threat cuz if I if I react to it as if it's a threat then I'm going to make a threat in the

world. Meaning if I treat you like a

world. Meaning if I treat you like a threat enough you will act like a threat right? So the way I would say that this

right? So the way I would say that this works is say in a in a a business I'm scared of your response as my boss. I'm

going to treat you like a threat. Oh my

gosh. And pretty soon you're gonna be really [ __ ] frustrated with me and you're gonna act like a threat.

>> Like I I want connection. I want

performance. I want us to be able to work together. I want all these things

work together. I want all these things as your boss. I'm not getting any of them. I'm getting like fear, stagnation,

them. I'm getting like fear, stagnation, freeze. I'm getting

freeze. I'm getting you trying to be perfect instead of actually like get the job done and then I act like a threat. And so

that's another way the golden algorithm works. But it's just generally when we

works. But it's just generally when we treat the world as a threat, eventually it acts like a threat back.

>> Yeah. Yeah. Well, something just happened to me in my perspective a moment ago is I was thinking about the space telescope and how long it took and the delays. I'm like, oh, how much of

the delays. I'm like, oh, how much of the delays were actually because of people being afraid of the love being removed or people like not knowing right like who's in charge? Am I going to be intact? What's

intact? What's >> So both both sides can be true.

>> Almost always. Yeah, that's right. Both

sides. So that's so that's so moving the fear, expressing the fear, working with the internal critic, >> all that you can find on other podcasts.

Um, really useful on the on the threat thing. It's like, oh, you can feel that

thing. It's like, oh, you can feel that threat and actually stop and be with it, be present with it, and not react from it.

>> What does that look like to feel it, be with it, not react from it?

>> What happens is it's like there's a pulse of nervous system reaction, fear.

Oh my god. Okay.

>> And instead of taking an action, just sit with it. Let go.

>> Adjust to what's happening here in this moment right now.

>> Sounds like a perfectionist kryptonite move.

>> It's like where are you now? Because

like any trauma, uh, it puts us into a past situation back to our parents, back to whatever Fallujah when you're in Cleveland. like

it it just it puts you back into a state that isn't true. And so if you're actually present in that moment rather than reactive in that moment, >> then you're actually present with what's

actually happening now, which is, oh, I have a boss who wants a job done.

Doesn't mean they want it perfect. Just

today, we were on a call and somebody's like, oh, I'm not going to get this perfect. And Matia, CEO, was like, you

perfect. And Matia, CEO, was like, you know, we're in this together. We're

doing this as a team. This isn't all on you. We, you know, you just totally

you. We, you know, you just totally relaxed the person on the call because all of a sudden they're not at threat.

>> Yeah.

>> And the perfectionism let go.

>> And now considering the being being with the threat, the being present with it.

There's something that often happens when someone's present with a feeling which is kind of go all the way back to the feeling like to where it came from and the story of the feeling. So like

being present with a feeling I'm hearing isn't isn't just >> oh I feel unsafe and I'm unsafe and just fully buying that because that's going to the past. Being present is

>> my body is feeling these sensations of unsafety and it >> is interpreting the world in this way but what I'm actually also perceiving right now here in this moment >> yes

>> is well what am I perceiving am I actually in danger am I actually safe what is >> what is the difference between what I'm what my gut is predicting

>> and what I'm experiencing >> both are really useful u meaning like in a day-to-day meetings and situations just being present with it. Super

useful. There is a really important thing to going back into the past, feeling through the emotions that you weren't allowed to feel >> when you were in that chaos, right? Like

your job is like, "Oh, you're a kid.

There's chaos. How do I be safe? I'm going to control, you know,

be safe? I'm going to control, you know, and yeah, >> I'm going to get it just right. I'm

going to be perfect. I'm going to do this thing." And then they can't get mad

this thing." And then they can't get mad at me, which never worked. But that

means you didn't get to feel a whole bunch of stuff like the fear of the chaos like the maybe the anger or whatever. So I think it is important to

whatever. So I think it is important to go back into the trauma and find find great people to do that with. Obviously

doing it alone is not a great idea but but that's >> I mean that that puts your perfectionism into into context. You were talking about how perfectionism is like a loss of context.

>> Yes. And so if you go back, if you want to work through your perfectionism, >> then go back to the full context from which your perfectionism emerged as a pattern.

>> Yeah.

>> And see that more clearly.

>> Exactly. That's right. And

>> so one of the things that you might notice about our business, I I hope you notice it, but people get more and more productive the more they stay here.

>> And the reason that that's the case is because we fight perfectionism organizationally. So what I noticed over

organizationally. So what I noticed over time is that bigger, more bureaucratic the organization gets, the more fear that your boss is going to fire you, that something's not going to be right,

that I have to do it perfectly, that what's Joe going to think, what's Steve Jobs going to think? And in that fear becomes more and more perfectionism, which kills innovation, as the studies

show, >> decreases results, as the studies show.

And so the only cure for that is to take the fear out of the organization, right?

And so that's why it's so important to like celebrate mistakes like we do. We

literally give standing ovations to people who make mistakes, right? Like

>> everything we do is oh everything's an iteration because we really want people to take experiments. We expect people to do experiments that will fail. like it's

built into our whole system to say, "Oh, your job is to fail at times. Your job

is to try things. Your job is to like mess up, not be perfect." And so that's why I think we get so much that's why when people come here, they become

more productive. And the crazy thing is

more productive. And the crazy thing is now kind of hanging out in some of the other organizations that I hang out in, what I notice is it's usually just the opposite.

Most organizations people become less productive when they are in the organization and it's because that fear goes up and that perfectionism goes up.

>> It's more that there's there was somewhere for the fear to go.

>> Oh, it's like the fear was able to move and be loved. And the opposite situation that you're talking about is that the fear has nowhere to go. The fear has to be held inside and held alone or work

its way out through gossip and politics.

Yeah, that's really well really well seen. Yeah, that's right.

seen. Yeah, that's right.

>> So, it's like if there's nowhere for the fear to go, you're just going to have fear driving all the decisions. You're

fear driving all the processes. You're

going to have fear stagnating and narrowing the vision >> and killing the innovation and the creativity.

>> And I see that like all the time. I see,

oh my gosh, being inside of organizations like here's the idea, it's a good idea. And then somebody needs to not get in trouble and they'll take the key component out of the idea, the thing

that's actually going to give it leverage.

>> Mhm.

>> Because they're into perfectionism and they can't see the forest through the trees. They can't see the actual one or

trees. They can't see the actual one or two things that are going to make it right. And then you can say, oh, how

right. And then you can say, oh, how have we lived our life >> from the last 50 years? So 19, what is that 8575 to today? 75 till today. like

doesn't cars would look different, houses look maybe a little different. We

have cell phones, you know, >> things are changing, but not at that same kind of clip. And I and and our society has become less and less riskoriented and more and more per you

said earlier 30% more perfectionism.

It's like, oh, right, that's less risk aversion. It's like that's trying to get

aversion. It's like that's trying to get it right instead of like, oh, I'm going to fail. And and that's that's the

to fail. And and that's that's the underlying cause. And the amazing thing

underlying cause. And the amazing thing is if you look at it on a societal level and this happens for businesses too when people are scared that they're not progressing often times what they do is

they put more fear into the system instead of less fear into the system >> right oh we need society to improve we need it to grow so I'm going to start

creating things that produce more fear rather than things that reward risk which is fascinating because over this over that same period of time our

technology has increased exponenti entially the so many aspects of our economy and production have increased exponentially and yet it seems like that just creates a whole bunch of back

pressure between the increased perfectionism and stagnation of the way that we actually organize as a society and then the increased like pressure of the changes that are occurring at an

increasing clip especially now with AI and all the geopolitics going on >> and of course you just have this backlog of fear that has nowhere to And boom, here we are.

>> Not to make this about geopolitics, but >> yeah, that's right.

>> But this is this is something that's not just in a company, it's our society right now, >> right? And and what I noticed is that

>> right? And and what I noticed is that typically in the long haul of society, like in an 80-year period or something like that,

but also in a a company, what happens is you keep on pre like one person gets hurt, so you make a rule to prevent the risk. One person gets offended, so you

risk. One person gets offended, so you make the rule to prevent the risk. keep

on making more and more rules. And

there's this great thing that says, I think this is true for companies, but it's also true for societies, which is at the beginning of an empire, there's few rules and everybody obeys them. At

the end of an empire, there's a ton of rules and nobody obeys them. And that's

true with companies. And so these more of these rules start getting populated as a way to stay safe, as a way to mitigate risk, as a way to make sure

people don't get hurt, which seems like such a caring, compassionate thing to do, but it's it's it's it's aiming for perfectionism, >> right?

>> And so what it actually does in a company, in a society, is it per it's creates stagnation. And so there is a a

creates stagnation. And so there is a a way that we are sacrificing the whole for the individual.

>> Yeah. In a way that like utopia is an idea that has hurt possibly the most people.

>> Right. Right. Exactly.

>> Yeah. And I know we were kind of geeking out on geopolitics, but the more important for me, the more important part of that is that's business as well.

And so if you look at uh the guy whose name escapes me right now uh Netflix and Netscape before he talks about how he induces it creates a certain amount of

chaos in the system because he smart people leave if you make a company idiot proof and then when the real changes come they can't actually handle

the the innovation they can't really hap they can't change quick enough and so he makes sure there's a certain amount of chaos so that there can be change

and that's what he accredits >> going from shipping DVDs to online streaming to probably now gaming or whatever it is that he's doing. And so

so that there's like there's an intelligence to that to say, "Oh, no.

I'm going to create I'm going to make sure there's a certain amount of chaos here that it's not going to be all systematized."

systematized." >> Yeah. And then there's there's also the

>> Yeah. And then there's there's also the forces feeding that in business, in education, and in families, and in like the moment you have a kid, everyone tells you the perfect way to raise your

kid. You know, there's

kid. You know, there's >> it it goes all the way down through the levels into the the deeply personal and familial, >> right? Yeah. Exactly. Yeah. You can

>> right? Yeah. Exactly. Yeah. You can

create you can have that same fear with your kids and you make less resilient, less >> capable kids. Exactly. Right. Yeah. And

but it's all perfectionism. It's all,

oh, we're going to make this whole system perfect so that nothing bad can happen. Yeah.

happen. Yeah.

>> So that we can't create chaos so there's no chaos. And then what it does is it

no chaos. And then what it does is it evokes these big explosions of chaos like >> a company failing or going away overnight or very quickly or whatever, >> right? Which which you see over the

>> right? Which which you see over the course of someone's life with the perfectionism pattern often, especially like right there in midlife when they've built the perfect life.

>> Yeah. And then

>> and then they feel trapped in it and then boom. chaos. Exactly.

then boom. chaos. Exactly.

>> So, how does somebody who's listening to this >> kind of titrate that process uh allow some of that fear to see the light of

day in a way that isn't going to disrupt their life too much and maybe some way that they can handle constructively?

>> And the the the most effective is the emotional inquiry. That's a really great

emotional inquiry. That's a really great way to just learn to sit with the fear that's underneath it to identify, oh, I'm in perfectionism. Trying to be perfect isn't going to solve the problem. Being with the fear is what's

problem. Being with the fear is what's going to solve the problem.

>> I'm gonna be with the fear. Emotional

inquiry is a great way to do it. It's it

does it doesn't have to be any more complicated than that.

>> Also, just like really looking at your threats, like going past the end point that your fear says there is and and allowing yourself to feel everything

that that might be. So, typically

what happens is I need to make it perfect because of X. I'll get love removed. I'll get in trouble. I'll get

removed. I'll get in trouble. I'll get

fired. whatever it is to actually visualize and feel through that experience of okay, now I've gotten fired and what's going to happen next?

What's the next iteration?

>> To feel all of that stuff is what prevents you from from uh being scared of it >> because I've already lived it. I already

know what it is. I know I can get to the other side of it. I can see through the false end. And as as we talk about all

false end. And as as we talk about all the time on the show that what we're we're not avoiding circumstances, we're avoiding emotions. Like, okay, if you

avoiding emotions. Like, okay, if you got fired and you were like, "Yay, I got fired. This is the best thing ever." And

fired. This is the best thing ever." And

you knew you were going to get the best job and then you were the happiest ever you've ever been. You wouldn't worry about being fired.

>> Yeah.

>> You're worried about feeling like crap. Like feeling so depressed about it that you can't get another job. Feeling feeling feeling is

another job. Feeling feeling feeling is the thing that you're really scared of.

So to go through a visualization where you actually can feel it.

>> Yeah. And unless you're avoiding the pleasure.

>> One of the most chaotic experiences for perfectionists is is pleasure and joy >> because usually in a household where a

perfectionist is born, their pleasure and joy got kicked.

And so it's a very like, oh my gosh, I'm feeling really good. What's about to happen? I'm gonna get it. I'm gonna get

happen? I'm gonna get it. I'm gonna get it.

>> Got to get back to just doing things right. So I'm

right. So I'm >> Exactly. So yes, that that deep

>> Exactly. So yes, that that deep experience of pleasure and joy is something that oftent times they will s self-sabotage unconsciously because the feeling of it is so freaking

intense.

>> So how much of perfectionism and creating art for example is simply the avoidance of the sheer pleasure of feeling free in it? Usually people have

to invite the fear, invite the anger, invite the grief and then they can start inviting the pleasure. But if you want to get a head start on it than you do when we talk about enjoying the process,

it's if you can or connect with the process, right? If I can instead of

process, right? If I can instead of doing this process perfectly, I can deeply connect with it. If I instead of doing this process perfectly, how do I

enjoy this process the most? that starts

to unravel all the negative and that very positive emotional experience that we're unconsciously avoiding.

>> This was a excellent >> excellent not perfect podcast. I can

tell you all the ways it wasn't perfect and yet steer here we are very very happy with it.

>> Thank you Joe.

>> Yeah, what a pleasure.

>> Thanks everybody for listening to the art of accomplishment. If you like this episode and you find somebody in your life who you think would enjoy it, please send it along. Also remember to like, subscribe, give us a star rating.

We'd love that. This podcast is hosted by Joe Hudson and myself, Brett Kistler.

It is produced by Mi Kelly, and this episode was edited by a reasonable volume.