Podcast: Emotionally Immature Parents with Dr. Lindsay Gibson

[music] [music] Hi, my name is Jacob Brown and I'm a coup's therapist in San Francisco. I

want to welcome you to sex, love, and couples therapy. We all want to feel

couples therapy. We all want to feel loved. That's [music] a universal

loved. That's [music] a universal desire. But sometimes instead of feeling

desire. But sometimes instead of feeling loving, our relationships feel confusing, frustrating, and a little crazymaking.

The purpose [music] of this podcast is to help you clear up some of that confusion so that you and your partner can find ways to make your relationship feel closer, more connected, and more

loving.

So stay tuned. We've got a lot of great stuff to talk about. [music] And now, let's go talk about my three favorite topics: sex, love, [music] and couples therapy.

Well, I'd like to welcome today's guest, Dr. Lindseay Gibson. I am incredibly excited to to be talking today with Dr. Gibson, who is the author of the very

popular and and I think really very important book, Adult Children of Emotionally Immature Parents: How to Heal from Distant Rejecting or Self- Involved Parents. Dr. Dr. Gibson is a

Involved Parents. Dr. Dr. Gibson is a clinical psychologist in private practice and she specializes in individual psychotherapy with adult children of emotionally mature parents.

She's along with that book, she's also the author of recovering from emotionally immature parents and self-care for adult children of emotionally immature parents and her

recent book who you were meant to be a guide to finding or recovering your life's purpose. Dr. Dr. Gibson lives and

life's purpose. Dr. Dr. Gibson lives and practices in Virginia Beach, Virginia.

Dr. Gibson, welcome and thanks so much for coming and talking with us today.

>> Oh, it's a it's a great honor to be here. Thanks for having me.

here. Thanks for having me.

>> I wanted to just take a second to make sure that uh kind of we all have an understanding of what we're talking about today. And I wonder if you

about today. And I wonder if you wouldn't mind just taking a a moment or two to kind of set the frame for what you mean by an emotionally immature

parent. What is that kind of when you

parent. What is that kind of when you say that phrase, what comes up in your mind as a picture of that person? I I I just want to say before I get into that

that I've made this my life's work because I think it is so crucial >> to uh mental health in all over the

world because the impact of emotional immaturity in a parent on the child is

farreaching. Um it is very subtle and

farreaching. Um it is very subtle and often unseen but it has a huge impact on that person's emotional life, their

sense of self-esteem and their ability to have rewarding relationships. So what

do we mean when we say emotionally immature? Well, emotional immaturity is

immature? Well, emotional immaturity is um when something goes wrong in that very specific line of development

psychologically that has to do with managing your emotions and integrating uh your emotions into your personality

in such a way that your emotions serve you instead of overwhelming you. So

something goes wrong, whether it's um uh you know a congenital or neurological problem or whether it's an environmental problem such as abuse. Emotionally

immature people just don't grow up emotionally. Now they [clears throat]

emotionally. Now they [clears throat] may grow up intellectually. Uh they may be very smart. They may be brilliant.

They may be um uh you know very effective leader. They may be the head

effective leader. They may be the head of a big business. I mean it doesn't impair their functioning but when it comes to intimate

relationships of which you know parent child relationships are are like a huge example of that they have a lot of trouble allowing other people to be

themselves and to set their own limits and their own boundaries. Instead, the

emotionally immature person, like the three-year-old, um, wants you to be all theirs, uh, to mirror them, to be just like them and

makes them feel secure, uh, to regulate their emotional stability for them and to make sure that you bolster their self-esteem. I I call that the

self-esteem. I I call that the emotionally immature relationship system. Meaning that I expect you if I'm

system. Meaning that I expect you if I'm emotionally immature to regulate me, my self-esteem, my emotional stability. And

if you don't, that means that you don't love me >> and it means that I have to pull away from you or I have to punish you or you know something has to go wrong. But

that's just a sketch of uh what happens in people who are emotionally immature.

And you can apply all of that to the way that a parent would treat a child, >> right?

>> Like there would be uh impaired empathy.

Um [clears throat] there would be a quickness to anger or punish. there

would be that expectation that the child hide themselves >> um and instead mirror what the parent wants to see. So yeah, self-development becomes very tricky with parents like

that.

>> Yeah. No, you can imagine that. I think

that's a a great description. It the way I look at it from that description, it changes the role of the child. So in an if I have a more mature parent then the

parent feels themselves separate both separate from the child but also the parent is in a sense in service of the child in caring for them both physically and emotionally >> but in the parent that you just

described the child is in service of the parent.

>> Exactly right. Yes. And you can imagine how difficult that is for the child to grow up in a world in which they are

clearly responsible for the caretaking of their parents kind of emotional regulation and emotional needs. [snorts]

>> Yeah.

>> Yeah. And what a burden that places on the child.

>> Yeah. And you know the tragic thing about it is that the child is not aware that they're carrying a burden because they have always been in that predicament.

>> So it feels normal.

>> Yeah. And I was wondering because I I completely agree with you about how important this work is um and the the tremendous impact this has on so many individuals as they grow up. You know, I

can imagine a parent's emotional maturity or immaturity might exist on a scale from, you know, um, subtle or mild to profound. And I wonder how big a

to profound. And I wonder how big a problem are we dealing with? I mean,

what kind of do you have a sense of what percentage of parents might fall into one of these categories of having emotional immaturity that might have a substantial impact on a child?

>> I don't have a feel for how many. I can

just tell you how popular the book's been. [laughter]

been. [laughter] >> Right.

I was going to bring that up that the book has been incredibly popular.

[laughter] >> Yeah. So, um my sense of it is that with

>> Yeah. So, um my sense of it is that with um when I look at my clientele, which is really the source of of my uh research,

my field research. Um yeah, people who suffer from anxiety um and depression, but more so anxiety,

those are people that I find a high likelihood that they have had some kind of experiences with emotional significant emotionally immature people

in their past. So, I I don't know the numbers, but I would say that this is probably much more widespread than anybody would think. Um, if we just, you

know, use that term emotionally immature parents, I'm sure a lot of people wouldn't consider that they had those kinds of parents until they understood what what they uh actually are like.

Well, I think there's a lot of value from my point of view and I wonder what your thought is. Is this using the term emotionally immature parent as opposed

to a more uh technical diagnosis of narcissistic personality disorder or borderline personality disorder? And I

wonder what your thoughts are about using your more umbrella term as opposed to those more kind of technical def uh diagnosis.

>> Yeah. Well, it's kind of like all those um diagnoses that you just mentioned to my way of thinking are indicators of emotional immaturity.

>> I I come from a very developmental perspective, >> right?

>> Um that's how I was trained and that's what has been borne out in in my experience as well. the diagnostic

categories that you just mentioned um do fall under what I consider that umbrella term of emotional immaturity and I wanted to keep it broad and uh a little

bit undefined that way diagnostically because I didn't want people to feel like they had to betray their parent by giving them a a you know pathological

diagnosis a label correct >> um and I also recognize that there are a bunch of different types of people that

are what I would consider to be emotionally immature. Um, but they may

emotionally immature. Um, but they may not necessarily meet the DSM categories, >> their criteria. And they may actually

appear to be very nice people, very kindly people. They might even be seen

kindly people. They might even be seen as the favorite parent um in the family.

But when you actually look at the degree of their empathy, their ability to um take other people's needs into account

and their ability to engage in real emotional intimacy with other people, that is relationships at a at a deeper,

more profound level, they really are immature. So there just are a lot of

immature. So there just are a lot of different ways that a a person can formulate a personality and yet still have that under structuring of

immaturity.

>> Yeah, that's very interesting. And and I think that idea of not h asking them to portray a parent I think is very important because even as adults even

when once we're aware of kind of our parents limitations there's a tremendous resistance to really kind of speaking badly or or acknowledging some of those

issues. And I thought one of the things,

issues. And I thought one of the things, one of the quotes that I was really impressed with from from the book is this question of how the ch how the

adult child begins to come to terms with the kind of childhood he or she had and how difficult that can be, especially if

they were physically well cared for.

It's one thing if you were physically abused or deprived and you can point to that, but if you were physically well cared for, it becomes more difficult to

really see it. And the quote you had is being well cared for in noneotional areas can create confusion in people who grow up feeling emotionally lonely. They

have overwhelming physical evidence that their parents loved and sacrificed for them, but they feel a painful lack of emotional security and closeness with

their parents. Yeah. And that's such a I

their parents. Yeah. And that's such a I see so many of my clients who show that same question or issue when I kind of suggest

some questions about their parents. They

say, "Oh, no, no, no. I was really well taken care of. You know, I went to the best schools. I went to summer camp. we

best schools. I went to summer camp. we

traveled and it's takes quite a while for them to feel comfortable enough to kind of have that connection with oh yeah but there was this other part

>> that I never felt >> right >> and I still don't feel >> that's right that's right yeah and that

points also to uh that thing about how do we uh how do we learn to know what we're feeling because we aren't born knowing what our feelings are. We're

born with a bunch of sensations, uh, bunch of, uh, body experiences.

But it really depends on the parent noticing the child's uh, emotional reactions and then putting words and names on those emotions. So, uh, the

emotionally immature parent not being very attuned, um, to other people's emotional experiences is not going to look at their child and say, "Oh, honey, you look like you're feeling emotionally

lonely. Um, perhaps you're not getting

lonely. Um, perhaps you're not getting enough connection." [laughter]

enough connection." [laughter] That's not going to happen.

>> Not going to happen. Yeah.

>> Yeah. Um, so yes, they [clears throat] they have the physical sensations, they have that that feeling, but they would not be conscious of it or in any way

know what it was connected to, >> right?

>> But, you know, I think one of the most um poignant and in some ways beautiful thing though, Jacob, is that apparently

we're wired for love. Apparently, we're

wired for a deep true connection with other people. To me, that is the most

other people. To me, that is the most marvelous attribute that we have. And when we don't get it,

when we can't connect with somebody at a deep enough level, it does something to us. It's like we're we're missing a

us. It's like we're we're missing a vital nutrient.

And of course, you know, in in your work in in your specialty area, um I'm sure that you're dealing with people all the time who are essentially feeling like

they're missing essential nutrients in their relationships, but you might not have any idea what to call that, >> right? No, that's so true. And I think

>> right? No, that's so true. And I think it's one of the more heartbreaking moments of being a couple's therapist when you see a couple in which one

partner is unable to kind of take in the nutrients that their that their partner is trying desperately to give them.

>> Yeah.

>> They are so trying to love they are so loving them but it's kind of goes past them. it kind of goes through them

them. it kind of goes through them without sticking. And that kind of

without sticking. And that kind of reminds me of the quote that also from your book that these people, these ch adult children often settle for emotional loneliness in their

relationships because it feels normal to them like their early home life. And and

this just goes back to what you were just saying about the lack of attunement and the lack of reflection, accurate reflection of what they're feeling that

they've never felt that emotional fullness.

>> And so they take that loneliness into their relationships and they are still not able to feel those nutrients.

And that's just heartbreaking sometimes.

Yeah, it really is because it's sort of like how do you um how do you increase that receptive capacity in a person who

doesn't recognize what they're being given and is, you know, sometimes uh confused or um threatened by it.

>> That makes a lot of sense that that they might be threatened by this. But I'm

wondering as these children Oh, first one last quick question about the emotionally immature parent and you talked about it. They might even be the favored parent. I wonder is your

favored parent. I wonder is your experience I mean not this isn't quantitative or statistical but just your experience that this tends to be more the father or the mother. Do you

have a gender feel about this? No, I

really don't because every time I start to think, "Oh, it's more the dad or oh, it's more the mom," I get another example of the opposite, >> right?

>> Um and and we're pretty familiar in in therapy with family dynamics where we have a mother who, you know, may be

quite loving toward the children, may be, you know, more gentle, have gentle person, have a nicer temperament.

That would be the what I call the passive emotionally immature parent. But

when it comes right down to it, they're not going to protect that kid >> from the other uh emotionally immature parent who may be quite rejecting or even abusive.

Um because their response, the passive type's response is to sort of glide over things and teach the child to not make a

big deal about uh hurts or things that happen. And so you can have that kind of

happen. And so you can have that kind of of mother. We we're familiar with with

of mother. We we're familiar with with that.

>> But then you can also have the family situation where the mother is maybe more narcissistic. um uh entitled, imperious,

narcissistic. um uh entitled, imperious, critical, uh perfectionistic, and then you have a dad who sort of

facilitates her running the show. He

protects her. He makes excuses for her.

He counsels the children to just go along so mom doesn't get upset, you know. So, we can see in both of those

know. So, we can see in both of those examples that this is a kind of a passive emotional immaturity coming out in both gendered parents.

>> Right. You know, it's interesting when you those descriptions also really remind me of what we see in people who grew up in alcoholic

households. And I'm wondering what in

households. And I'm wondering what in your mind, if any, kind of connection you make between, you know, um, growing

up as a a child of alcoholism versus a child of a immature, emotionally immature parent.

>> Yeah. Well, you can think of it as any kind of drug use, any kind of abuse of intoxicants helps you feel like you're coping.

>> Um, it reduces stress.

Uh, it takes pressure off and it makes you feel okay. Basically, that's that's that's

okay. Basically, that's that's that's the power behind intoxicants, >> right?

>> Yeah. So, emotionally immature people um are often not up to the tasks and the pressures and the stresses of adult life

at an emotional level. And so they uh they really need help in dealing with stress. And because like we've been

stress. And because like we've been saying, they have trouble taking in support from other people because they're not used to it and they don't know quite what to do with it, then it

makes sense that they would try to handle this on their own, >> right?

>> Through some kind of substance or some kind of activity. Uh could be a lot of acting out that goes on as well. um that

helps to calm them or it helps to center them or um sort of bring them into alignment again. So I think that there

alignment again. So I think that there are a lot of similarities because addiction is a way of coping without using support from other people um and

without really looking at what the emotional issues are underneath.

>> That makes a lot of sense. So I'm

wondering as take you know these emotionally mo these adult children and we look at them in relationships because they as they grow up and go into

relationships. I wonder how do you see

relationships. I wonder how do you see them dealing with the both the joys and the challenges and difficulties? What

what are they like as partners for you know example? How do they be how do they

know example? How do they be how do they approach relationships as they grow up?

>> Yeah. Well, think [clears throat] about it in terms of what they have um had to practice and get good at in their relationship in their families,

especially with their parents.

um they have had to uh tolerate a one-sided relationship with the parent where the parent is um basically not

aware of and therefore not very interested in what's going on inside that child. So the child learns that my

that child. So the child learns that my subjective experience is not important.

In fact, it causes problems. It annoys people. it's it's uh a burden or a

people. it's it's uh a burden or a nuisance to people. So, if I'm going to have a close relationship,

then I need to hide that and like you said earlier, serve be of service to the person that um I'm getting into a

relationship with. So, they go into

relationship with. So, they go into relationships expecting to do all the emotional work. That is, they're going

emotional work. That is, they're going to they're going to be the one with empathy. they're going to be the one who

empathy. they're going to be the one who um has to tell the partner how to be a grown-up um in in their parenting or how to take responsibility or how to be more

sensitive. They're always working

sensitive. They're always working emotionally uh to try to bring their partner up to speed and they expect relationships to be frustrating. Uh they

don't expect relationships to be enriching. I don't know how many people

enriching. I don't know how many people I've had who will talk about um they'll say things like, "Well, I know relationships uh take a lot of work, >> right?"

>> right?" >> And I'm thinking, "No, they don't." Um

uh yes you have to make effort to have a good relationship and you have to be aware and you have to try and all of that but these are people who are truly

working at their relationships um and not getting very far. So that

feels normal to a person who has had to take on the responsibility of uh caring for the emotional needs of their parent

for instance and also um they have learned that you put other people first.

Uh that self-sacrifice is the highest good in a relationship. Now

interestingly there's a shadow side to this.

Underneath that there is a lonely, wounded, neglected child part of themselves, >> right?

>> Who is hoping for a partner who will finally finally give them the love that they never got and who will be

sensitively attuned to what they need without their ever having to ask for it.

You know that for these adult children would be oh that just the greatest good in terms of what you could expect from a

relationship that I don't have to tell you what I need. You notice what I need and give it to me. Now the the shadow

side of this is that sometimes that part can get very strong and a lot of the suppressed anger that they have toward a

parent who was not sensitive to their needs, who didn't guess what they were feeling or what they needed. that anger

comes up and gets expressed toward that partner, but they have no idea that it it's coming from an old source of pain in addition to whatever the partner is really doing.

>> Right.

>> Right. So the

>> Yeah. So the partner really becomes this constant source, you talked about frustration of why don't they really see me? Why don't they really understand

me? Why don't they really understand what I need? you know, they should know and they get there's this constant anger at the partner or dissatisfaction

without, as you pointed out, recognizing that that dissatisfaction was something or that loneliness and emptiness they brought to the relationship that this is

part of them rather than the partner's, you know, failure.

Yes. And and the other thing that they bring to the relationship I just want to um mention here is they bring a passivity about asking for what they need or

explaining what they need. Um because if they ever did get something good from their parent, it was probably when mom or dad was having a good day or, you

know, feeling uh flush about life and they gave gifts or they they uh read them a story or they did something kind and sweet with them, but it wasn't

because the child went to them in a state of great need and the parent met the need. It was that the parent was

the need. It was that the parent was feeling good, right? you know, and so there's like this aausal overflow of giving.

>> Yeah. And so the child learns that I've got to sit back and wait for somebody to guess what I need because when I ask for it, it turns people off,

>> right? And to me, you know, in the way I

>> right? And to me, you know, in the way I look at things, that also resonates with the question of kind of this deep sense of shame that they carry that which

prevents them from actually saying, "Yeah, I I I need this from you. I want

this from you." That that it's very hard for them to feel that they have the ability, the right, or that it's going to turn out well at all if they actually

name how they're feeling. And that

continues to be this block because they both can't name it or express it and they expect the partner to divine it to know it.

>> Yes. And that becomes that becomes proof of love.

>> Right. Right. You expressed that really well in the book. You said that they believe if they want closeness they must play a role that always puts the other person first. And then later the biggest

person first. And then later the biggest relationship downfall is being overly sacrificing and then becoming resentful at how much

they do for the other. So it's this terrible dilemma that they that they find themselves in all the time.

>> Yes. And they've also learned that it's necessary to persevere. That is you have to go for a long time in between

rewards. Um, and it's it's that old

rewards. Um, and it's it's that old thing about intermittent reinforcement that when you >> when things are not going the way you

want them to, you have to double down and endure until something shifts or something changes. And that willingness

something changes. And that willingness to pers persevere with unsatisfying connections is one of the things that,

you know, holds people together.

um unfortunately in a way that uh it's kind of a a hope that's misplaced because the the situation is really not being addressed.

But that's okay because they've learned that if I persevere long enough, mom will be in a good mood or dad will uh you know uh be happy to see me or you

know, but it's they're just too accommodating and too hopeful about things turning around on their own.

>> You can imagine these kind of it's like these little oases in the desert, but they have to travel for months from from one water hole to the next. They learned

how to do that as a child, you know.

>> Right. Right.

>> And and they keep expecting that, oh yeah, just a little longer they'll be we'll reach another water hole with my husband or my wife. But they don't. And

the last part of that is that they then think that's the failing of the partner as opposed to their problem of seeing the the nutrients that are already

around them. that that they're always in

around them. that that they're always in a water in a water hole at an oasis and they just haven't figured out how to see it and how to drink from it.

>> Yes. Yeah. And then there's, you know, uh that other issue too, which is am I worthy >> um to be given these things? That that's

a very deep one because a lot of times emotionally immature parents give their children that impression that they're

not worthy. uh they're not um even basic

not worthy. uh they're not um even basic entitlements to uh being treated with respect or having boundaries observed or

listening or seeing or noticing. You

know, some of these things uh that the kids are not worthy of that kind of parental uh emotional attention. And I'm

wondering, do um the children when they grow up, do they tend to marry people or get in relationship with with people that are kind of reenactments of that

childhood? Do they do they then get

childhood? Do they do they then get involved with other emotionally immature people or how do they then kind of seek out partners in the world?

>> Yeah, I I I think that certainly happens a lot. I mean, a lot of the people that

a lot. I mean, a lot of the people that I would see for um basically adjustment uh disorders pertaining to a marriage

would be that kind of thing where they got involved with someone, they accepted the premise that this is supposed to be a lot of work. Um it's up to me to make

a good relationship. Uh [clears throat] you know, there's nothing um that I can do. I just have to sort of uh you know

do. I just have to sort of uh you know endure this and then you know a few years later or whenever along comes a person who really does make a connection

with them. And so the first choice might

with them. And so the first choice might be a person who is like the family shares a lot of those dynamics, treats them very similarly to that. And then

maybe in a later relationship as they have really kind of become conscious of of the pain in that first um right >> uh dysfunctional relationship they

become more conscious of the pain and more self-aware they really are more emotionally available for a good relationship and they can you know end

up with a a good person. But I've seen a lot of people and these tended to be people who had some saving graces in their history,

you know, like they had a grandmother or they had a teacher or they had a friend's parent who kind of gave them

more attention and nurturing um than they would have otherwise had. And those

people sometimes really find good mates early, >> right?

>> Relatively early. Um, and they and they have good relationships that continue.

And it's really wonderful when you see how, you know, they have good communication, they have good empathy for each other, they have fun with each other, they feel safe with each other.

those relationships with your partner can happen even you know if you have emotionally immature parents and I'm sure it has something to do with some of

their um you know kind of uh saving experiences with with nurturing people in their past.

>> Right. Right. It's it's so that's so interesting because we see that with kids in lots of different ways that who have had very difficult

uh childhoods or childhoods of that are abusive or um deprivation that that one teacher who paid attention to them.

>> That one coach and may even have been a relatively short relationship has a profound impact on their later life. to

setting a a model for how people are supposed to interact with each other.

>> Yeah. And the other interesting question uh about that is is it that they had those people or is it that they noticed that they had those people?

>> Ah yeah, you know >> that's a great that's a great question.

>> Yeah. because maybe um some of the other children who didn't emotionally mature in the same way, maybe they had caring

people too, but for whatever reason couldn't take it in or couldn't um couldn't recognize it. It's we'll never know the answer to that one, but it it

is interesting. It's a but it's a great

is interesting. It's a but it's a great point because sometimes no matter what someone's not available, not able to kind of notice or see the things that

they have that are, you know, right in front of them.

>> And but that's just a a sign of how profoundly they've been kind of damaged by that kind of early system >> of not really being being noticed.

>> You know, I was wondering one last thing about this topic. I can imagine also because what you know I'm a an EFT therapist and so we talk about attachment all the time and sometimes

what happens is in a family a parent is able to attune better to one child than to another just because of either circumstances or their person innate

personalities or what's happened and so I can imagine it being very confusing that a child might grow up let's say there's two or three kids and they feel

emotionally lonely in a way in which their siblings don't. That might be very you can just imagine how painful that would be for them to kind of feel this

way within that system.

>> Yes, absolutely. Um, what I have noticed a lot though in the histories of my clients is that that other child that

seems to get all the parents attention uh that is very much seen as the favorite or kind of gets away with

murder and and my client grew up um kind of having to um defer to the needs of that sibling and so forth. A lot of

times that closeness with the emotionally immature parent is not what we mean by closeness. Um it is more of an imshment

>> where the parent sort of sees a reflection of their own child's self in that particular child and then they

become very merged psychologically with that child and become indulgent and uh support a kind of an entitlement uh in

that child. But of course the other kid

that child. But of course the other kid has no idea that's going on. and it just looks like, you know, that the parent loves that child more. So, it's, you

know, it's incredibly painful and and incredibly confusing.

>> I'll bet. I'll bet. What's their

experience then as a parent and having their own children? I can imagine on one hand they would have this great joy at being able to provide their child with

what they didn't get, but I can also imagine them feeling frustrated or unhappy or or uh what's the word?

jealous as they see perhaps their partner give their child the kind of love and attention and reflection that they never

received as a child.

>> Yeah. No, of course. And that is um that's just human nature, you know.

[laughter] I mean, um, yeah, you don't even have an have to have an emotionally immature back, parental background to to have

that one zing you because, you know, again, it's that thing about we all want to be noticed. We all want to be loved best. We all want to be special. And

best. We all want to be special. And

this is not narcissism. It's just that we want to be the apple of someone's eye.

>> It's the most wonderful feeling. And so

that could be hard uh when you have uh a little person in the family that you know has got your spouse wrapped around their little finger or you know seems to

get a a special tenderness that maybe you don't feel as often from the spouse.

I mean that's that's just hard. Um

[laughter] and so you know but the difference is that the the person who's adequ

adequately emotionally mature is able to enjoy through empathy that child's experience of getting that attention so

they can sort of sit back and sort of bask in the fact that you know there's this good thing going on between their spouse and the child. So that's

possible. And also, you know, when we're emotionally adequate adequately emotionally mature, nobody is totally emotionally mature, but if we're adequately emotionally

mature, um then we can handle emotions like jealousy or envy. Um, we can handle

difficult emotions toward people that we love because emotional maturity means that we have become complex enough inside that we can really pretty easily

tolerate conflicting emotions.

>> Like I love my child and I'm jealous of the attention that he gets or she gets.

>> Yeah. Right. Um, so a and you you can remember what your goal is, what you're what you're going after here. And with

your child, you're trying to raise, you know, a a happy, functional child, and you realize that getting into a jealous

screaming match is not going to be consistent with that goal.

>> [laughter] >> And so we deal with our feelings in a, you know, in a more mature way and we accept them. We're just like, you know,

accept them. We're just like, you know, can't help it. I'm jealous.

>> Bothers me, >> right? But yeah, it bothers me. But and

>> right? But yeah, it bothers me. But and

it's hard sometimes to really carry both those ideas that I have this great love for this child and maybe I'm jealous of them or or I also if the child is acting out, I love this child. I adore this

child and they're driving me crazy at the same time.

>> Yes. Yes, that's that's maturity.

Maturity that you can hold those two ideas in in mind and not get rid of not have to get rid of either one of them.

>> Right. And I just want to jump on one thing you said which I thought was very important. This concept of adequately

important. This concept of adequately emotionally mature.

And I just want to kind of express that people might think that, oh, I've got to kind of be totally emotionally mature, but that's just not the case. And no,

none of us are are that we just have to be able to kind of see the other the other person to really kind of not be so

focused on self, but be able to open up to other person. We still have we still have problems. We still have challenges.

There's things we do well, things we do badly, but the benchmark is not so high.

We don't have to become perfect.

And I think people who are suffering from this think that h I've got to be I've got to change so much. But actually

there's a lot of opportunity in kind of modest or incremental growth and change.

>> Yes, absolutely. Um, you know that uh uh concept by um Donald Winnott about the the good enough parent.

>> That's just what I was thinking about.

>> Yeah. Well, I I heard once that somebody did research on that and they uh I guess they coded maternal behavior and then how the kids turned out or did some sort

of research design like that. And what

they found was that a good enough mother was good enough only 30% of the time.

>> That was the kind of the cut off mark.

Um if you were good enough 30% of the time, >> the kids's going to be okay, [laughter] >> right?

>> Which I found enormously reassuring.

>> Reassuring. Yeah. [laughter]

Yeah, but totally you know it's like if you think of um you know if you >> if you think of a day and then you think

that 30% of your waking hours are spent with someone who sees you, who recognizes you, who thinks about your

feelings, uh who can sit down and be emotionally intimate, listen to you about what's really going on with you.

30% of the hours in your day are spent with a person who can do that. That's a

lot.

>> That's a lot.

>> We don't spend 30% of our waking time with our therapists, >> right? [laughter]

>> right? [laughter] >> Right.

>> So, it's it's enormously impactful uh to be able to even get a little bit of that.

>> Right. And I think that's such an important point because um especially as parents, you know, we look back, h I did this so badly. I did that so badly. I I

you know I I shouted at him or whatever or her.

But those are kind of moments in which we weren't at our best. But as long as we can say, "Oh, well, I was a pretty

good dad at least 30% of the time."

>> That seems like such a a doable thing that we can let ourselves off the hook for some of the ways in which we were not less than perfect as parents.

>> Yes. Yes.

>> Or as partners, >> right? Right. Also, people who have

>> right? Right. Also, people who have adequate empathy, you know, basically they're able to put themselves in the shoes of other people. And that also means our children that if I see a look

on my child's face that signals me that that child is in distress or that child is feeling unhappy, I'm if I have adequate empathy, I'm moved to do

something about that. I move to approach the child to um ask what's wrong to give comfort you know to be to show curiosity and interest

and if you are moved by empathy and the child and you listen to the child and the child says when you shouted at me it made me feel terrible

um or it scared me you have empathy for that and then you will want to apologize.

Mhm.

>> So the other part of it is that even though we we can't always do the mature thing or or do the nonharmful thing,

we can fix it later, >> right?

>> By going back in and addressing the feelings that remain from that encounter.

And to me, that's like one of the most hopeful things about all relationships is that you don't just get one chance uh to be attuned and empa and empathetic to

your partner or to your child. You can

create additional opportunities to go back and do some of that repair.

>> Right? That's so true. I just want to because we're getting to the end of our time. I just wanted to ask one one kind

time. I just wanted to ask one one kind of last question or topic which is how do these people find help for recovering for changing for growing? What's the

best what's the best way for them to kind of improve the situation? Is it

professional care or self-care? What

works best? What what modalities work best to help them? Yeah, I think any kind of modality that seeks to put the person back in touch with their

emotional experiences and opening up about emotionally intimate material. I think those are the

intimate material. I think those are the two things that are the most helpful in recovering from emotionally immature parents. If if we're, you know, talking

parents. If if we're, you know, talking about what can a person do? um you know things like uh yoga uh cognitive behavioral therapy

um you know there many different modalities and and things that help people those are good but the problem occurred in that person's emotional

attachment >> right >> and it occurred in their concept of their self okay so therapies and and

group activities um that support getting to know yourself, especially your emotional self are what I think is the most effective

uh to getting to where the problem occurred. Yeah, I think it's I think

occurred. Yeah, I think it's I think it's enormously important and I really like um emotionally focused therapy that you

just mentioned. I really like that

just mentioned. I really like that because it sort of says there's a reason why you're having the trouble you're

having and it has to do with how your important people in your life responded to your emotional needs.

That whole emphasis and the effects of shame on you and those kinds of um things that quash your spirit uh that is enormously helpful. I always recommend

enormously helpful. I always recommend to people that they try some kind of EFT oriented therapy and also um

self-concept therapies loosely >> defined like internal family systems I find to be enormously helpful too because it gives you a way of working

with these different parts of yourself >> that may you know some parts may be uh very wounded other parts may be very mature there's usually that kind of

imbalance within the personality uh because they had on the one hand they had to grow up too fast and on the other hand uh they have these unmet childhood

needs that really need to be addressed on an emotional level.

>> Yeah, thank you for that. Well, I have to tell you this has been I can't believe almost an hour has just zipped by. This has been so interesting and

by. This has been so interesting and this is such important work because as therapists we see the result of a parents emotional immaturity in our

office all day long. Mhm.

>> This is a theme that just comes up and that we're dealing with on a regular basis and it causes such pain and grief,

but there's such opportunity for people to change and to have a much uh richer and healthier and happier life with

other people.

>> Yes. And the thing I love about uh this concept in therapy is that you know when you get an explanation for why you feel

the way you do >> and when your symptoms start to make sense and when your unhappiness starts to seem uh explainable. It's amazing

what that does to your sense of efficacy, to your self-esteem, and to your hope for having, you know, better relationships and a better life with other people.

>> So, it's very very important that we we get the story straight and and we understand what's happened to us.

>> Absolutely. That's I I couldn't agree with you more.

Well, Dr. Lindseay Gibson, thank you so much for taking the time to stop in and talk with us today. uh that was a fascinating discussion and I really want to thank you not only for talking to us

but also for your work which I think is an important contribution. So thanks

again and I hope you have a wonderful day.

>> Thank you so much for having me. [music]

[music] >> Well that's our episode for today. I

hope you found it interesting and useful. But most of all I'd like to

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Sex, Love, and Couples [music] Therapy.