Poker Isn’t Complex (You’re Just Overthinking It) | Sergio "Donk Orleone"

You could be playing against a player and if you look at poker as a science, maybe you see him [music] get the blocker wrong or the suit wrong, you're like, "This guy, this guy's bad." Right?

But if you saw two people in a boxing match, round 12, he's like he drops his his shoulder a little bit, you you would be like, "Oh, this guy sucks." No, it's [music] like he's [ __ ] tired. people

are are are missing that mistakes and imprecision and fuckups and all those things are part of their game. Today we

will be chatting with Spanish highstakes cash game player Sergio, better known online as Dunk or Leona. Sergio has a long competitive background from Magic the Gathering to Hearthstone. But yeah,

one day I was just like I'm [ __ ] broke. Like I play these these dumb

broke. Like I play these these dumb games all day. Like couldn't I do something similar but that makes money, right? and and I started playing poker.

right? and and I started playing poker.

>> After hitting a wall trying to implement complex solver strategies, Sergio began stripping the game back to its essence, isolating what truly moves the needle.

And for me, like a a strategical breakthrough is like the realization that ranges aren't really real. You can

play your range and you can think that you have a range, but [music] maybe I don't think that you have a range.

>> Poker started to feel much simpler of a game.

>> Really strong poker players are not these genius robot machines that are like made of a different kind of a material. They're like some kind of like

material. They're like some kind of like alien. I think if you're a a viewer and

alien. I think if you're a a viewer and you're like playing lower stakes and you're like you don't trust yourself because maybe you're not enough. It's

like until you push yourself, you're not going to know.

[music] Thank you guys for tuning in to what's going to be another great episode of the Mechanics of Poker podcast. Quick

announcement, we have seats open for our Mechanics of Poker coaching program. If

you want to work with me and Adam and have us help you make more progress in your poker career, you can apply using the link down below or go over to mechanicsofpoker.com.

mechanicsofpoker.com.

Without further ado, guys, enjoy this episode. All right, Sarah Joe, let's uh

episode. All right, Sarah Joe, let's uh dive straight in. Poker is a complex game. True or false?

game. True or false?

>> Um, false.

Please explain because the common the common understanding is that poker is super complex etc etc. >> You think differently.

>> I I like I like to be a bit of a contrarian. So so I like to start with

contrarian. So so I like to start with the with the hard no and then you know elaborate. Uh I would say that the

elaborate. Uh I would say that the poker is complex but not in the ways that people make it up to be because uh

the human brain cannot deal with with the level of complexity that solver has.

It's just not possible to like maybe maybe it's just maybe I'm just dumb. But

no matter how much I've tried to improve at certain little like details, certain things, be very detail oriented about this frequency and this blocker and like no matter how much I try, again, maybe

it's my own limitation. I just seem to run into a wall, but when I look around, I feel like everyone's running into the same wall. Like maybe from different

same wall. Like maybe from different directions, maybe someone makes a different type of mistake. And at the end of the day, when I'm playing against really good players,

I feel like the game is decided not on those details. It's decided on like big

those details. It's decided on like big picture concepts that even if you're better technically than it happens to me sometimes, like maybe I'm player I'm playing someone who I think is worse

than me and maybe I can get a lot of those details better, but if I get the big picture wrong, I lose. Like I'm just losing. I I have I'm pretty sure I have

losing. I I have I'm pretty sure I have a negative win rate if if I get the big picture wrong. So, it's not that it's

picture wrong. So, it's not that it's not it's not like it's a hard no that it's it's not a complex game, but it's more so that the fundamentals and the

simple ideas are the thing that matters the the most even at really high level. And I'm I'm still not satisfied with my level. I I

think I have a long way to go. But I

have this feeling that no matter how long I go and how far I go along this path, I'm always going to feel like the game we're playing is like really

stupid in a way. Like it's not really like that, you know, that smart of a thing, you know?

>> So from what I understand is basically if you zoom out and focus on the big picture, the big picture principles, those are actually not that complicated.

But so you feel like it's more the way that people commonly approach poker that we kind of over complicate it for ourselves.

>> Yeah, I definitely I definitely think so. I think that

so. I think that um you know um there's a there's a group of friends and sometimes I go in in this like rambling tades and and there's

there's a rambling tate that I went on that was about like how we have become like everything has become about solvers like uh if you exploit now you're not

you're no locking in your brain if you play well you're brain solving if you like everything is about it's somehow rel but it's not like we're whether game we're playing is is is

much more basic really. And a lot of those

basic really. And a lot of those complexities usually come down to intuition and like experience, right? Like most of the most

experience, right? Like most of the most of the good blocker effects that I get and and all these things, I get them right because they just feel right, not

because I'm like explicitly like being extremely deliberate about them.

Do you have maybe have an example in what ways people over over complicate the game and what do you think they miss because because of it?

Right. So, so I think that I think that the game is complex in a different way, which is the way in in that there are so many variables you could consider at one

time to make a decision. Like that is extremely complex, right? Like imagine

easy example is if if you're playing live like like someone could be eating pasta and the other guy could say something while playing a hand and there's just like so many different inputs that you could take into account

and the moment you focus on a small detail and you miss like for example that the guy is eating pasta like you're going to

make a huge blunder that has nothing to do with the this club the eight of clubs that blocks of [ __ ] whatever. Um,

so I think it's it's not I would say more than complex, it's it's hard. It's

a hard game to play, but uh I think when you bring it down to like playing English or whatever your language is,

it's it it's a more real like I think I think talk talking about the game in simple terms makes it more uh it's more true that that's the way you should play.

This kind of reminds me of the podcast that we did with uh Prodigy, the first one that we did with him where he said that I think I I think he was getting coached by Barack and Dot and what stuck

out to him was how they were able to always isolate the most important factor in a hand. Is that kind of what you're saying

hand. Is that kind of what you're saying in terms of okay we make things complicated because we're trying to take so much things in consideration that actually don't really move the needle whereas like

>> it can like because I recall Owen said like I would take all these things in consideration and then do that would come to him and he would say one sentence and like yeah that basically

was that that's basically it.

>> Yeah. Yeah. So yeah for sure I've actually heard the same thing about uh David Jos like the same uh from one of his students. He said like the the thing

his students. He said like the the thing he admired most was the the his ability to really focus on what matters, right?

Um and that's I think my it's not what I can do, but it's what I strive to be able to do is uh I'm just

trying to get closer and closer to cut through the noise and the [ __ ] and be able to like figure out like what's the one thing that I should really care for. And it's not even like

it's not even that the small details don't move the needle. Like the thing is that they do.

It's just that we're I think we're just too stupid. Like I I just they do move

too stupid. Like I I just they do move the needle, but I I just don't think we can do it. So, um

>> do you think I think >> like it's it's f like they indeed move the needle.

>> I feel like when you when you try to focus on implementing 10 things in a hand, it's impossible, right? you're

blown your your brain just blows up.

>> But when you focus on these couple of things like in your decision making process that you know are important >> then I feel like you could take the rest in consideration as well but it comes from a different point. It comes from

>> intuition right it comes from you're in the zone and you spot something but when you try to force on like a very small nuance all the time you just can't get there.

>> It's more of an unconscious competence those small details I would say.

>> Yeah. And I also feel like let's say let's say if you agree with that like the more you try to focus on playing quotequote perfect the further where you actually get there and the more you try to kind of >> Yeah. Like I said focus on the most

>> Yeah. Like I said focus on the most important things and get in flow then the rest kind of follows.

>> Yeah. Yeah. I have I have this thing it it always happens. I I don't want I don't know when I'm going to learn the lesson but I feel like whenever I go on a very big upswing I start feeling smart

and I still feel like no I can do it. I

can like I can take all these little details. I can take all these little

details. I can take all these little nuances, this like tiny little thing. I

can I can [ __ ] do it right. And I

start really focusing, drilling on them, like really trying to get them right.

And maybe even people who see me play, they could look at it and be like, "Oh, actually, like that's a pretty good play, whatever." And in my head, I'm

play, whatever." And in my head, I'm just I just feel like I'm missing so many things that in my normal state, I would totally find, right? And and

usually what happens to me is like I go on an upstream, I get boggled down with all this [ __ ] and then I go on a huge down swing and it's and then I feel dumb again. I feel stupid. It's like,

dumb again. I feel stupid. It's like,

"Okay, let's just okay stop juggling like a thousand balls. Let's just juggle two and try to do it." Okay. [laughter]

Uh I like I think also for the audience listening, they're like, "Yeah, okay."

But you know, Sarah Joe knows. So

obviously it's very important that if you know what the most important factors are in the hand, you only focus on that.

Yeah, of course. by decision making is very simple, right? Because once you know it's simple, but is it is it simple to get to know these things

or to find them?

>> I think it's a lot of it I I think a lot of it just comes from experience. Like

this is this is a barrier that I've noticed that certain things seem really simple and basic to me and probably to you as well. and

then you try to explain it to a student to him is is like I think he's just not played enough hands. He hasn't seen enough [ __ ] to be

hands. He hasn't seen enough [ __ ] to be like of course yeah this is of course the what matters the most. But I think I think a lot of I think in poker

uh it's very underrated how much wisdom is the the main uh driver for win rate. And so wisdom

allows you to look at simple things and be able to know that they matter.

Whereas when you're you don't have experience, I don't know, they just they just noise, right? Like maybe you see a certain sizing on a certain board and you're like I know what you have like

you had exactly the end. But someone

with less experience could not do that because they just don't they just haven't seen enough [ __ ] >> Yeah. They they might face the same

>> Yeah. They they might face the same situation, but their mind goes to because they have so much pieces, right?

They're like, "Oh, uh, let me see my hand, this, and that." Whereas you're like, "No, I mean, he literally just turned his hands face up. That's pretty

important. Forget about the rest."

>> Yeah. Um, that that's like one simple example.

>> So, from what I understand, when we when you talk about the game is simple, it has nothing to do with simplifying your strategy. And do you think people kind

strategy. And do you think people kind of are forced to simplify the strategy because they're unable to isolate the most important factor in the hand? So

they're like, "Okay, there's all these things I have to kind of simplify it because else my brain explodes."

>> Yeah. Exactly. I think that again it goes back to like the solver obsession.

It's like a simple strategy simple is because if you put it on pio instead of 74 gigabytes, it's 250 megabytes, right? But your your your

megabytes, right? But your your your brain doesn't work like that. You you

don't store information in your brain.

Like like I could tell I could come up with a strategy that has 30 sizings on every single street and I could explain it to a tonel player and they would be very capable. And you probably can think

very capable. And you probably can think of of strategies that that a human brain could very easily understand that have infinite sizings that if you put it in

in Monker solver it would be a thousand billion terabytes. But in a human brain

billion terabytes. But in a human brain is like pretty easy to apply, right? So

I think I think simplicity is more about making things easy for yourself as a human, not making things less gigabytes

on pio. That's kind of how I see it.

on pio. That's kind of how I see it.

>> And I think in there I also kind of read the difference between okay, you memorized all the sims or you've clarified your decision-m process.

Because if you clarified your decision-m process and one of the 30 sizings automatically rolls out because of it, then it seems more implementable.

Whereas if you would have to memorize 30 sizings, obviously your brain explodes.

Right. Right. Like if the strategy, like for example, if the strategy was like on every node of the game every time, like you're going to bet a sizing that reflects how much equity you have,

right?

I mean, that's that's so it's so basic.

And yet if you try to put that into monker it would exp like it could you couldn't do it like it would explode. So

I think simplifying is more about making things yeah it's just focusing on what matters making sure that what

matters is you know working correctly and then the rest just allow your unconscious and and obviously you have to like train and study and all those

things so that you kind of just like more or less uh solve the the little details of the strategy.

It's funny because we we chatted a bit before the podcast and there you said something like, "Yeah, every time you try to kind of copy the solver, you kind of run into the limitations of how dumb we really are." But now on the other side, you're basically saying we're kind

of smarter than pio if we use our brain in the correct way.

>> Right. Right. It's like pio it's just like the thing is like pio is a tool.

Pio is like is a is a it's a tool is a is a great software but it's not I think it's better to look at it like that's not poker. It's it's something but it's

not poker. It's it's something but it's not poker and and whatever it does it's like the smartest [ __ ] in the world right whatever it is it's doing is like insanely amazing but whatever we are

doing it has something to do with it but not that much really.

Why do you think uh we or as as poker players in general, we're so drawn to to the complexity, right? What do you think chasing like theoretical perfection give

us or actually maybe protect us from a European?

>> Yeah, I I think there's multiple things.

I think that one of them is fear. I

think um we are scared of of being exposed of feeling like you know vulnerable and it's it's just an emotional like a

lot of things a lot of decisions we make as humans if like you could this happens very often that I'm I'm watching maybe a streamer or and they explain that it's

like oh the reason why I fall here is because of this oh the reason why I fall here is because this and then you look their hut is like full full. They fall

everywhere, right? [laughter]

And all I'm saying is they think that they're making a rational decision, but in reality it's just an emotional one.

And I think that this solver thing is is a very much like an emotional decision that we are making as a community to like protect ourselves and not feel

exposed and vulnerable.

Uh and also another one is that it feels you know when you don't it's it's

when you don't have the skills in in a certain field and you're trying to imagine how it would be to be more skilled. The easiest

way to imagine it is to imagine yourself but more like yourself but more of it.

Right. But then you get there and you realize it's it's nothing like that.

It's like it's more about like it's still pretty basic, but it's just different things that you're thinking about that you're focusing on. So I

think it's also like the the this people trying to imagine what it would be to become better and they're just like not able to to it's just like

the Doney Krueger where like what you don't know is impossible to know what it is. And so the the easiest thing to not

is. And so the the easiest thing to not to think it is is the same but more of it. So I think that's definitely part of

it. So I think that's definitely part of it.

>> In every top sport, data is used to find bigger edges. And poker is no different.

bigger edges. And poker is no different.

Alongside using solvers to build a strong theoretical foundation, I started studying population tendencies back in 2016 to get a more accurate picture on how people actually played. I went from

trying to mind readad my opponents to clearly seeing where the exploits were and which decisions were actually plus EV. Once my decisions were rooted in

EV. Once my decisions were rooted in data, I stopped second-guessing my bluffs, calls, and faults and became far less affected by short-term results as I now knew exactly what the ranges really

looked like. Just like solvers have

looked like. Just like solvers have evolved from setting up your own pio sims to effortlessly browsing any solution you want in GTO Wizard, data has gone through the same evolution.

What used to require massive databases, powerful computers and hours of manual work is now fully accessible instantly in your browser. Thanks to Snap NDA.

With Snap NDA, studying how humans really play has now become more powerful and accessible than ever before. You get

access to over 450 million hands played across all major sites, removing any sample size issues or guesswork. Snap

MDA automatically compares human tendencies to GTO play and instantly shows you the EV of your plays.

Alongside river bluffing frequencies, it shows flop and turn range compositions not distorted by showdown bias, allowing you to clearly see where ranges are too

strong and too weak, so you can avoid and strike accordingly. You can filter for any specific player profile from aggressive to passive rags and from small fish to big whales and start to

see that what looks random in isolation actually follows clear predictable patterns once you zoom out. In short,

Snap MDA shows you exactly what the ranges really look like from pre flop all the way to the river. And once you know the ranges, the correct strategy becomes much clearer. You can even

analyze the strategies of top performers or this group of bots that have been consistently crushing the games. So, if

you're tired of uncertainty and overrelying on blockers to make decisions, Snap MDA can help. Start with

a 7-day free trial and get 15% off your description using code mechanics link down below. But without further ado,

down below. But without further ado, let's continue with today's episode. How

have you been able to keep theory practical? Because obviously you do work

practical? Because obviously you do work with solvers, but you seem to have a different relationship with them than most. How would you describe your

most. How would you describe your relationship? And how do you guys get

relationship? And how do you guys get along in a good way? You know, your relationship with it is not toxic like like others.

>> I think it is. I I think totally it totally is. It's just uh it's just I

totally is. It's just uh it's just I every now and every now and again I I like come to the real like what the [ __ ] am I doing right [laughter] so I I I

definitely run into that like a lot but it's just I try I always try to be pra like to me practical is always like the top I guess like you could say I'm a

pragmatist or something like that and so I think that helps me to sometimes find my way back a little But I definitely get lost many many many times.

>> Yeah, I I I I can I can relate to that.

Sometimes, you know, it's it's also just fun. You're intrigued by the complexity.

fun. You're intrigued by the complexity.

It's like, "Oh, interesting.

Interesting." And then, you know, when you start to play, at some point you're like, "Fuck, I did it again." You know, it's like, "Wake up. Wake up. Wake up.

Who cares what the [ __ ] the solver is doing here? What do you think is good,

doing here? What do you think is good, Sarah Joel? What do you think is good,

Sarah Joel? What do you think is good, Wacker? Well, let me think about that."

Wacker? Well, let me think about that."

Oh, yeah. That actually is a way way a way easier way of looking at it and way more accurate as well. Uh what actually struck me, you also talked about like uh the importance of experience. You've

actually only been playing poker for four years. Uh so that means that very

four years. Uh so that means that very much >> Yeah. Like you very much grew up in an

>> Yeah. Like you very much grew up in an area of solvers. I'm a dinosaur. You

know, I grew up before solver. So

usually this type of thinking is a bit more natural to me whereas you see more posts solver generation, it's a bit harder. Why for you uh or how did you

harder. Why for you uh or how did you manage to kind of avoid that trap of over complication and obsession with theoretical perfection? Like what

theoretical perfection? Like what steered you in the right direction instead of the the quotequote wrong direction?

>> Yeah. I think I think I think part of it is like this this how vehement I am about it is I'm just I'm telling myself, right? Because when I when I started

right? Because when I when I started playing I started playing NL2 and the first thing I did is I bought uh GTO plus I was just like god like

playing hands and it was just I mean it's it's complete a terrible idea by the way like obviously a terrible idea

but I remember like uh yeah just going through 2NL just like squeaking out like a little bit of a win rate and being able to like like move up

to 5 L 10 and L whatever and I found it like so first of all my my I it was so exhausting to play like that

right it's it's so exhausting and and then at some point I I thought I don't I don't know what brought the idea but I thought like what if there was like a way that I could look at like

where people are folding a lot like maybe I could just like open a and and like I remember doing that at at 10 and L or something like that and I Google I

found like uh you know trackers all and and suddenly like I started like actually realizing like oh this is this

is easier but but again that's just um like that's something I did then and uh I fell back into it again and

then I fell back into it like it's just it's just I don't think it's I hope that that I stop you running into this [ __ ] problem, but it's probably not going to

happen. Especially when I start facing

happen. Especially when I start facing stronger opponents and I see them do something that is kind of like a blocker thing. I I'm like, "Oh, [ __ ] Now I need

thing. I I'm like, "Oh, [ __ ] Now I need to learn like what the hell they are doing with the blocker and shit." And

and then it takes me a while to go back to my own style.

>> But do you think though that like it it sounds a little bit like a toxic relationship, right? They push you back

relationship, right? They push you back in, but they're like, "No, no, no." and

then you go away again. Uh but on the other side like every time you go back in you do gain something. So do you think it's also like just part of part of your learning curve

in a way? Um,

I thought every interation I thought I I thought about like is is it is it actually a worthwhile part of of my

improvement to go through these like useless just like low win rate periods where where I'm focusing on on [ __ ]

And I'm not sure. Maybe it is. Maybe

it's actually worth it. I'm not sure. Um

maybe maybe it is. I don't I I can't answer that. But it's funny actually

answer that. But it's funny actually that the example that you gave when you started to for example you said well what if I can just see if my opponent overfolds because then I can see your decision-m process go from [ __ ] I have

this blocker how much equities what is the range what's my minimum defense frequency there's a bunch of things to take in consideration and like oh wait but this guy overfolds well that makes it a whole lot easier now is it and I

remember actually I remember the same when I started to do more coaching for me like this kind of thinking was quite obvious and then I heard a student and he like you had one ram I'm like, "Yeah, but this guy's a nit. He doesn't bluff.

So, I don't care what you have. I don't

care this. This guy's a nit. That seems

pretty important, right?" Talking about isolating the most important factor in the hand. You're up against a knit. I

the hand. You're up against a knit. I

don't care which blockers you have.

>> Yeah. Yeah. Exactly. Adam, how do you think um mental game and performance is related to uh to kind of the technical aspect or more in the way for example

that Sergio um has structured his thought process? Because I can imagine

thought process? Because I can imagine people might be like, "Oh, I'm a terrible performer or I have huge mental game issues." But that could also be

game issues." But that could also be because you just have the wrong approach towards your what what you focus on.

Yeah, I think John mentioned something really interesting when he talked about solvers and one of the main reasons we use them is because of fear and he said we're scared of being exposed and you realize like the solvers create this

nice little almost like cheat sheet like there's the answers. So if you follow the solver you can't go too far wrong.

If you go wrong or the solver says this or you've got like a baseline to compare to whereas there's no solvers and you come with a strategy and just get it wrong because you made a mistake. You've

got to be like oh I'm an idiot. I'm not

smart enough. that's a much more vulner vulnerable position to be in than the solver didn't quite execute the strategy. So yeah, I think the the

strategy. So yeah, I think the the solvers can definitely be a bit of a crux to rely on and stop us using our own brains and definitely become like a u something we're striving towards and

rather than like let ourselves be vulnerable even as you're talking Sergio you're speaking about like simplifying things. How do you know what you're

things. How do you know what you're simplifying? How do you know you're

simplifying? How do you know you're doing it right? How do you know you're missing important stuff? The mind can get very insecure. Uh, so yeah, I think a lot of stuff in terms of complexity, we often hide behind complexity because

we're scared to uh be vulnerable, but also like simplicity is the mind struggles to it. Imagine the game of poker. We went to everyone who's

poker. We went to everyone who's struggling right now, guys, it's much simpler than you think. They're like,

"No, no, no, like you don't get it. Like

I need to figure more stuff out. It's

more complicated and I need answers."

So, I think we we gravitate towards complexity and then once you have very good at something, you realize ah it was simple all along. And as you mentioned said you need to sometimes go through those complex kind of periods to get other side and go actually it was more

simple then complexity then simplicity and yeah I think a lot of people who are who reach the top of their field often find in that state when they are an expert that it becomes simple again there's a lot of times where it is

complex so yeah very very interesting there in terms of hearing you navigate that. So you mentioned um alongside fear

that. So you mentioned um alongside fear you mentioned kind of emotion drives our decisions and biases and I think these are all hidden into fears as well. So

for you, have you noticed yourself any sort of biases that you've had to push back against or become more aware of as you've evolved?

>> Yeah. Yeah, of course. Uh I Yeah, I think that that's I think that that's really like where most of the game is is

is in in that aspect in like emotions, right? Like uh

right? Like uh tailed like figuring yourself out like figuring why you make decisions, right?

I think self I I think the first person I heard this say is like uh Phil Galon said the most important skill in poker

is uh self uh awareness right and uh yeah I I mean I have a ton of uh of biases and uh

yeah I couldn't even like list all it's just so many but it helps me a lot to to spend time like to to share thoughts and

to talk hands with people that have different biases because it starts like like as a as an advice maybe if you're like a newer player if if you have a

study group if you can get people in that study group that are like very different from you uh that's probably better than than

three people who agree on everything. Um

because a lot of it is going to be those biases that each person learns from from the other. Actually, I was watching a

the other. Actually, I was watching a video the other the other day. It was a interview of Gary Kasparov uh the the chess uh previous world

champion.

and he said that he coached Magnus Carlson and he coached Hikaru Nakamura, but he said that his style was too similar to Hikaro Nakamura. So, the

coaching didn't quite work that well, but his style was the opposite of Magnus. So, he thought that his coaching

Magnus. So, he thought that his coaching actually moved the needle a lot for him and made him like the part of why he's such a great player.

>> So, we've got kind of alternate viewpoints, different perspectives.

That's one way to uh see some of your blind spots and biases. How does someone else go about gaining self-awareness?

Because let's say like self-awareness is the number one skill to develop. I feel

like a lot of people struggle here and they struggle because the biases themselves often block you from going deeper. So you have a bias that protects

deeper. So you have a bias that protects the ego. Your biases that are blind

the ego. Your biases that are blind spots that stop you from understanding how the brain works. So you're trying to become more self- a self-aware, but the biases themselves are kind of blocking you and you're almost like blindsided by

what's actually holding you back. So

let's use yourself as an example in terms of working through some biases.

How did you gain more self-awareness?

Any practices you did? Anything you

picked up on which you felt was blocking you or bias that you had to uh to practically work through?

>> So one thing I do that I think is very underrated is I have a I have a sports psychologist that I talk to like almost every week. I think that definitely

every week. I think that definitely I mean like I it's like something I don't see the difference from from one week to the next but if I see the the

impact that it's probably had over the years I I I would say it it does have an impact just talking about your emotions even uh I've heard some people like journal right just doing anything that has to do with like explaining your how

you're feeling why you made a certain decision because a lot of the time it's more like looking back like you have to look at why you made a certain decision and and figure you can't do it like in

the moment. You have to like uh look

the moment. You have to like uh look back at it. So I think I think that's definitely part of it. Uh and also I find honestly that whenever I going to on a huge

downswing that's like the best uh medicine for [ __ ] like uh when when I go on on an upswing I feel like I start

building that ego and that like uh like protective layer where like there's there's something I need to protect with my decisions

and and then going in the downswing is like I at some point it's like what am I doing? Like let's just like who cares? Who cares about losing,

who cares? Who cares about losing, winning? Let's just let's just try to

winning? Let's just let's just try to play play well. And so so yeah, I think but but yeah, I think definitely like working with like a mental coach or

whatever like that's super useful.

>> Yeah. And I think that context as well brings that awareness of blind spots that you're not currently aware of.

Hence the lack of awareness and talking things out, journaling, some sort of reflection. And I think often speaking

reflection. And I think often speaking things out gives you an insight of what you're thinking. And as you mentioned,

you're thinking. And as you mentioned, self-awareness is often a process of looking back. Looking back on a pattern

looking back. Looking back on a pattern that repeats itself and going, why did that happen? What was I thinking there?

that happen? What was I thinking there?

And really trying to pick pick it apart in terms of what went wrong or what you were thinking. It sounds like for you

were thinking. It sounds like for you upswings creates a bit of an ego problem. Whereas down swings kind of

problem. Whereas down swings kind of shatter that ego and get you back to basics and return to base kind of thing.

Yeah. Yeah. Nice. Yeah. Well, I think I'll come back to this. We'll circle

back around to this topic later, but I want to piece together a bit of your story coming into poker and your kind competitive drive. So, I think you're a

competitive drive. So, I think you're a competitive guy. Did poker start that

competitive guy. Did poker start that ignition with being a competitive person or before poker where you're already doing things and sparking that competition.

>> Yeah, I was I was I was very much like a addict to video games, especially like competitive video games. Like I I just played all day like just pick whatever game interested me that month and I

would just like play game after game after game after game. I

played a lot of uh like Magic the Gathering.

Uh so this these card games I I really enjoyed before poker. I think that's where uh I think that's where my competitive drive was being like channeled before

poker. Um but yeah, one day I was just

poker. Um but yeah, one day I was just like I'm [ __ ] broke. Like I'm playing these these dumb games all day. like why

couldn't I do something similar about that makes money right and I started playing poker >> your friends have said they would laugh at you because you try hard at anything even rock paper scissors and mind

sweeper >> where do you think that drive comes from to you try hard >> I don't know like

>> I don't know uh actually I was talking to my sports psychologist the other day and he said like why do you play poker right And I was like, I don't know. I don't

think it's money.

Uh, like I don't know. I don't know. I I

think honestly I think some people are are have certain traits more more exaggerated and and some people have this competitive nature and some not so much and and that's it. I don't I don't

know much more than that.

>> When you compete, do you want to win? Do

you want to better yourself? What is it about the competition environment that's attracts you the the most?

I think the I think actually when you put it that way I think definitely like improving is what pickles my right like that's I feel like the the the the

feeling that I'm progressing that I'm building something that I'm uh improving my strategy sharpening the the knife like that feeling is definitely what

what makes me feel good.

>> Yeah. Yeah, I think it's interesting because I feel like poker sport is a very competitive environment and we can compete in that environment for different reasons. I think yourself, as

different reasons. I think yourself, as you mentioned, you're trying to improve yourself, level up your character, become a better version of yourself, but there's other people who are playing just to win the game, just to get the acknowledgement, play the high stakes, get the money, and you can be playing

the same game for different reasons. I

feel like competition is a very good vehicle, a good avenue to work on yourself. How else to uh know what

yourself. How else to uh know what you're capable of, push your limits to improve so many different variables than to compete and put things on the line, put money on the line, put your identity on the line. So yeah, I think for you it sounds like that's the the main driver

of that. So when it comes to

of that. So when it comes to transitioning from strategy games to poker, do you feel like that gave you some form of advantage like a head start in terms of you already doing a lot of strategy games in your life or do you

feel like it maybe held you back getting into it?

Um I think I'm not sure because when I started playing poker I started playing it from

a very different I I thought it would be very different and so I started playing poker doing poker raw like the this solver thing like when I played Magic the Gathering I wouldn't like care about

what the most optimal I was just trying to figure like what does the other guy have in his hand and like how can I like not make that very good, right? Um,

and and so when I started playing poker, I was trying to understandably because poker is like a very abstract game. Like what the the game we're playing is like all in in in

the mind like what what you're seeing at the table is not really where the game is decided.

So, uh it's it's understandable that I approach it wrong, but I think I approached it so wrong that it didn't help so much. But I think after a while

it came back full circle and I started like piecing it together. I was like, "Oh, it's it's a game. Oh, it's actually a game. It's not like a science. It's

a game. It's not like a science. It's

not a engineering degree. It's is

actually a game like the games that I used to play." Right. And and so after a while it after years it it I think maybe it does help, but I don't think so in the beginning.

What would you say is something that's universal across the games you've played? You're thinking of your

played? You're thinking of your experience of playing games and then applying that to poker when you did piece it together. What are some of the kind of characteristics of strategy games that seem to hold true across

different games?

>> Um I think there's this sense that that in poker we call leveling wars. Like I

think in other games it's kind of like a given. Like in poker it's like a dirty

given. Like in poker it's like a dirty war. It's like level wars like street

war. It's like level wars like street poker. It's like it's like a bit of a

poker. It's like it's like a bit of a dirty thing. But in other games I think

dirty thing. But in other games I think it's like it's a given. Like you're

trying to figure out what the other guy's going to do and you're going trying to do what counters what he's going to do. And that's really like the the

Yeah, that's that's the the main idea.

So I think that's what holds true also in poker for sure. Just the the idea that that it's about trying to understand what your opponent wants and

trying to figure out what counters what he wants to do.

>> So you were a broke 25-year-old. You

were play a lot of games. You decided,

right, let's make some money. Poker

actually pays me to uh play games, so I can make some money here. talk us

through like how you got started and what was kind of the the initial experience of playing poker compared to the other games you were playing.

>> Um yeah, I was just uh it was co so it was uh lockdown in Spain so I was just stuck at home. Didn't have much to do

other than than uh be on the computer.

So yeah, at first it was just uh yeah, me on the computer playing 2NL, playing I I spent like an ansurmountable amount of time in front of a solver.

Like I would spend like at first I would maybe spend like 10 hours a day either looking at a solver, browsing two plus two, looking

for videos on YouTube. Like I I would just spend like an insurmountable amount of time just like because because I really feel when I don't know anything I

it's just like a urge to I need to know what the hell is happening here.

It definitely was it was a lot.

>> So with that what were your kind of initial kind of milestones? Did you

start making money straight away? Were

you struggling to beat the 2NL? How were

you kind of uh surviving in those early days?

>> Yeah. No, I mean it wasn't I didn't start I mean I started winning right away because I again I mean if you spend

10 hours looking at YouTube videos and you're playing 2 and L it's it's a you're you have an edge but um uh yeah so I started winning but it was

of course it wasn't like big money or anything. Um, I think when I started

anything. Um, I think when I started making like a livable amount of money, it would probably be like maybe a year and a half

into it or something like that. Uh,

livable in Spain, right? Uh,

which so it depends on the country, but but yeah, something like that. So, I

didn't, you know, I found progress right away, which is good, but I didn't find like in instant success or anything like that. I had like a so many huge

that. I had like a so many huge downswings. cuz I remember like finally

downswings. cuz I remember like finally I moved up to 50NL and then I had a down swing. I had to go back to playing 10

swing. I had to go back to playing 10 and L for like 4 months or something. It

was just like uh uh yeah it was it was so annoying that that that period of time.

>> How were you able to deal with those swings at that time and what was your goal? Were you trying to uh reach the

goal? Were you trying to uh reach the higher stakes? Were you trying to create

higher stakes? Were you trying to create a bit of financial freedom for yourself or at buffer? How were you kind of trying to piece together your career in the early years?

I told I remember I told because my mom was obviously like a bit skeptical like she was like my my my family never like pushed too hard against it. Uh but they

were like what what is this poker thing right? Uh and I told her like

right? Uh and I told her like don't worry like in in four to five years I'm going to be playing high stakes. I'm going to be making like this

stakes. I'm going to be making like this amount of money. My bankroll is going to be this. It kind of it kind of lined up

be this. It kind of it kind of lined up pretty precisely with what I told her.

So that's that's pretty good. But

>> where did that belief come from?

>> I think it was a it was reasonable. I

think it would I think uh yeah, it was just a it was just a logical belief to have.

I don't know. I think that's actually what got me through the down swings.

Like I've I've always had like this belief that I'm going to figure it out.

Like yeah, like right now it's nothing's working. Uh I've been set back like like

working. Uh I've been set back like like sometimes in poverty you can be set back for for a long like you can destroy the progress of a year in a month or like

you can face those setbacks and I've always had the belief that you know I'm I'm going to figure out probably probably uh upbringing gives me that like probably the way I

was uh raised leads me to have that personality. I

don't know.

>> Can you picture any early experiences that you had that instilled that I can figure it out mindset where no matter what you're doing, you feel like you can rise the top and figure it out over time?

>> Actually, something like a funny little a funny thing came to mind. I was with I was with Mateo in in in Barcelona

and I lost my backpack. It got stolen. I

had like my my crypto wallet. I I'm a mess. like I'm a complete mess. It had

mess. like I'm a complete mess. It had

every like my whole bank girl. It was

everything in that backpack and I was calling my mom like do you remember that that password thing that I gave you like like oh I threw it to the trash and like

mom no like you have to find it. you

know, I'll do it. And and and my mom told me like I told her like there's this amount of money in the [ __ ] thing. And and she told me, uh, look,

thing. And and she told me, uh, look, like even to her it would be a lot of money, but but she she she told me on the phone, you're going to make it back.

Don't worry. Right. And and Mateo was was right besides me and he said, your mom is based. [laughter] Sounds like >> Yeah. So that that's definitely going to

>> Yeah. So that that's definitely going to rub off on you. That mindset of that belief, right? Like that where's that

belief, right? Like that where's that come from? A really strong belief in

come from? A really strong belief in you, that you can do what you want, that you can achieve anything. Um, even a large amount of money like that, she's not worried because she's got full belief in you. Probably trying to calm you down as well to not make you overreact, which I love cuz my mom would

do the opposite. She'd freak the hell out. She'd go crazy. So yeah, to that's

out. She'd go crazy. So yeah, to that's a good good thing to still for you. I

want to talk touch on like dealing with adversity. It feels like you're someone

adversity. It feels like you're someone who's got a real strong mindset.

mentioned this kind of overarching belief that you can figure things out and the long term. But in the question, you mention something really interesting which I want to kind of repeat. So you

said, "Most of my shots have failed miserably. When I was shooting 200 NL, a

miserably. When I was shooting 200 NL, a friend was helping me with backing and at some point he pulled it because he stopped thinking it was profitable for him. I had to go back to playing 50n

him. I had to go back to playing 50n living with my ex-girlfriend without any income." I can imagine that must be a

income." I can imagine that must be a brutal period to go through. Can you

relive that a little bit for us into how you kind of dealt with that? One, you've

got a friend who's just kind of turned his back on you a bit and said, "You're not good enough. you're not really making money. You got to make money.

making money. You got to make money.

>> He's totally cool. But I would I would I would he didn't make like a wrong I don't hold it against him at all. But

yeah. Yeah, definitely. That was uh it was just uh it was I don't know if I deal with it better than other people. I just don't stop. I

just don't quit. Uh, I think I deal with it maybe as bad as anyone else would would go through it, but I just keep pushing.

I don't know. Like it was I remember that time it was hard. It was like um it was like just going to McDonald's or something

like that would just like stress me out.

It would be like [ __ ] like this is so much money, right? And

um I remember that's the first time where this this pragmatism that I talked about kicked in like it was like I'm against the I think that I I would say that

that's kind of like something that I see in myself like in retrospect I I see it that that I do it a lot is that when things get the hardest I always like

you know I go for through a period of like panicking and and and and just like everything is is going to shift. head.

But at some point, I just like calm down and I just go back to the drawing board and uh I think that's kind of what I what I I went back to the drawing board.

I went like, "Okay, I'm going to play 50 and L." So, I need to play 50 and L and

and L." So, I need to play 50 and L and actually make enough money so that I don't have to ask my mom for money [laughter] basically.

>> [snorts] >> So, and when I put it in those terms, like I think we should view poker more in that way. Like, how do I pay more of the bills? How do I like instead of

the bills? How do I like instead of trying to like how do I get the frequency and the blocker is like how do I look at my bank account and there's

more, [laughter] right? Uh, so

that that's when I turned it around. I

just like went I went back down to like 50 LL and I started like really trying to like push for the highest win rate I could possibly ever have at 15. That was

like my goal there. Just have like the most insane win rate I could ever come up with. And and in like a month

up with. And and in like a month I I I mean I was running good but I made I grew my bankroll to play 200L like

almost right away just because I changed my my approach to the game.

>> How important are these patches when players go through them? They're kind of down swings the points where it feels like not all is lost but you're in a bit of a a tough situation. You have to move down stakes, your ego's bruised. How

important is it to build your character like through this patch? Cuz I feel like this is like the key making of a poker player who kind of rises compared to the players who kind of start at the same point and just don't make it through.

Like for you it just becomes yeah, just knuckle down and just keep going. But

for other players, like it's really challenging. Like they struggle to

challenging. Like they struggle to internalize what's happening. They

struggle to replan expectations. They

struggle to kind of realign stuff and keep keep working towards that long-term goal. So for you, how do you uh kind of

goal. So for you, how do you uh kind of use adversity as something to build resilience? Is this something that you

resilience? Is this something that you just internalize as a positive part of the journey? And then the actions you

the journey? And then the actions you take, are they challenging to take in the moment when you're going through adversity or do you feel like an internal drive just to learn, improve,

and and change your situation?

>> Yeah, I think the thing is I think the way I deal with with down swings is like so toxic and and bad, but it just kind of works fine.

Uh, like usually when I go on a down swing, I just get more and more and more and more like obsessed. I push harder and harder and harder and that is really

painful because when it when things are not going your way, it doesn't matter how hard you push, they're not going to go your way, right? Uh, and so it it is a I think it's kind of like a toxic way

of doing it, but eventually it eventually the you get back on your feet and and so so I think it's not the best way to do it. It's just like better

than totally panicking and quitting basically. It's like the next worst

basically. It's like the next worst thing, but not the worst.

>> [snorts] >> I don't think it's necessarily a bad thing because you're basically using the fuel of the negative energy of the downswing and you're using it to propel action. Like you're taking action to

action. Like you're taking action to keep going. Yes, you're trying to force

keep going. Yes, you're trying to force things. You're trying to control the

things. You're trying to control the uncontrollable. You're trying to make

uncontrollable. You're trying to make things h go back to normal quicker than they need to, but you're also taking action. You're also probably learning at

action. You're also probably learning at high rates. You're performing probably

high rates. You're performing probably fairly well in terms of you're so obsessed with learn at that point.

You're probably not like negatively impacting performance. But yeah, I think

impacting performance. But yeah, I think at some point obviously you need to either get out of the down swing or accept the down swing. Has there been any downs where you've tried that approach and no matter what you do just hasn't worked and you've had to go right

I accept it. I down swing down swing and you've not had you've not forced it.

I think that's what always basically happens where but it's a it's a it's a sort of acceptance that is like

like I I feel that I and this might be weird or and it might not even be true.

I I feel like I play my best of the best at the bottom of a down swing. Like I

play like absolutely incredible because at some point I'm like I don't care anymore. Like nothing

matters. I'm just going to play my my game. I'm just gonna And at that point

game. I'm just gonna And at that point is where I feel like I start like those big pictures constant. I start seeing things. I start like paying attention,

things. I start like paying attention, right? Uh when I care things

right? Uh when I care things are like in front. So, I think that's one part of the reason why it's toxic is

like trying too hard is um like it's good to try to figure out if you're doing something wrong, right? and to try to figure out like

right? and to try to figure out like what you need to improve because there's always something to improve. But I think there the toxicity comes when you're

like for example like playing more volume and more volume and like usually when I go on a down swing is like I go less to the gym because I'm playing

more. I go less to the to I go less to

more. I go less to the to I go less to the museum or the park or the or just to have a beer or I just do less things because I'm like I need to figure this

out and and then at some point I'm like something clicks I'm like okay let's just let's just ride along and if if it's if I need to lose another 20 buyins

then so be it. And that's I think when I play best is when I'm when I've lost like however many buyins and then I'm like I could lose another 20 and then

then I start playing well. I wonder how much the uh intense work period is needed before you can accept things and like let things just flow freely because you look at like a lot of kind of

geniuses who come with ideas. They often

like stress on the idea for months and months and months can't get a breakthrough. Then they'll have a

breakthrough. Then they'll have a shower, relax for a bit, and the ideas pops to them. But they've got to do the kind of work in advance before those kind of ideas can flow. I think some like maybe on a downswing, you do a deep dive in your game for a month. Stress

and trying to solve everything. You're

like, "Ah, just can't solve it all. Just

relax, drop expectations." And you mentioned this kind of freedom that comes with it. So this rock bottom almost like devours the ego, devours expectations, and you feel free and play your best poker. How can you or have you

tried to get into that state or channel that state without the need to hit rock bottom in terms of like things are going well realizing it's such an important state to get to? Have you done anything to try to cultivate that more frequently

without needing to hit a rock bottom?

>> Yeah. I don't I don't know is actually I was talking about this with my with my psychologist. He was like he asked me

psychologist. He was like he asked me the same question like h how could you cause this state of mind without going on a huge loss? like [snorts] cuz we had

that conversation when I was like in the middle of a downswing, right? And and I told him like I feel like usually there comes a point where I something clicks and I start getting it and he's like

okay how can you cause that situation? I

was like I don't know I guess I just keep losing more and then at some point uh it happens.

So I don't I don't know. Uh

I think probably with experience maybe I don't cuz like I find that with every single downswing and upswing that I go through I have

like more wisdom about like I know myself better. I know what I focus on

myself better. I know what I focus on more in in which periods when I'm working a productive way when I'm not.

And so I think maybe maybe just self knowledge and experience.

Uh I I don't know. It's it's hard to say.

>> Yeah. But it feels like every downswing you gain more self-awareness. You learn

more about yourself. Maybe you come out the cycle quicker. Maybe you hit that kind of realization where you can't change it quicker than you did initially. Maybe that's the initial kind

initially. Maybe that's the initial kind of wisdom you're gaining in terms of I don't need to push it so hard for so long to get out of this. I can actually just release things quicker. You've

mentioned um intuition can't be taught.

Is intuition something you feel like you need to just build through experience?

If you can't teach it, how do you develop it?

>> Yeah, I think I think it's definitely through experience. Uh I think

through experience. Uh I think everything like uh studying, playing uh playing in a deliberate way like if you're just distracted playing like a

bunch of tables just like uh I don't know some people like watch a a show while they play that's not really deliberate practice.

Uh, but I think yeah, just playing and studying, reviewing hands, but again, reviewing hands in a deliberate way, right? Not like just let's get through

right? Not like just let's get through this. I play today these hands, I marked

this. I play today these hands, I marked them. Let's just go. It's better to just

them. Let's just go. It's better to just do one and really like focus on what you're doing. Um,

you're doing. Um, so yeah, I just think it's it's what what someone would think is the right answer is the right answer. You

just have to do things a lot and do them well. Basically,

well. Basically, >> how much do you how much do you think we talked about all the way in the beginning we talked about, [clears throat] right, that a lot of extra nuances kind of come from intuition. How much do you

think we should make room for intuition? Like

you said, if you overload your decision-m process, there's no more room for intuition. So when you say intuition

for intuition. So when you say intuition can be taught, do you is a way to teach it maybe to simplify your decision-m process and in there consciously leave

room for hey whatever your intuition says at that moment.

Right. Right. Right. Yeah. I I I think that the the way to teach intuition is kind of like maybe teaching like what daily routine, daily process someone

should have to build that intuition and also yes like how like maybe like directing them to

uh like for example I have I have a couple students and something I tell them a lot is like when I maybe I post a hand or they post a hand and I tell them

to explain the the thought process for for why they would do one thing or the other on the river, let's say. And

I always tell them like just don't ramble. Don't don't ramble. Just

ramble. Don't don't ramble. Just

you don't have to like just write one thing and and and then go with it, right? Don't don't write like a million

right? Don't don't write like a million things. Just just go to the point. Just

things. Just just go to the point. Just

write one two sentences that go to the point of why you make this decision.

don't uh so I think like trying to like convey that importance of of being concise. I think that's maybe maybe

concise. I think that's maybe maybe that's a better way of of so in this like simplicity versus complexity I think it's more about concise being

concise more than being simplified.

>> What's your thoughts Adam? Like how do you see like I I jumped in kind of to how like the technical and the mental game kind of they connect each other again when it comes to intuition.

Yeah, I think it's it comes down to permission to kind of trust yourself in that moment without the mind over complicating. And it's a tricky thing

complicating. And it's a tricky thing because obviously as poker players, we like to make good decisions. We like to think things through. And there's a point, a moment where intuition just goes fold. And you're like, "Oh, wait a

goes fold. And you're like, "Oh, wait a second." Like, uh, do I need to fold

second." Like, uh, do I need to fold here? Like, what's going on? And you

here? Like, what's going on? And you

start like going through all your complicated thought patterns to make sure you're getting it right. Don't make

a mistake. Fear start kicking in. Oh,

would the solver do this? Should I be doing this against this guy? The

intuition told you in 0.1 seconds it was a fold. But we don't trust that. We

a fold. But we don't trust that. We

don't give ourel permission to go with those reads and we don't strengthen those reads. So we've got this logical

those reads. So we've got this logical part of the brain that once we start engaging with it sounds very sensible.

Then we've got this intuition that's very hard to quantify, very hard to speak out, very hard to put logical framings on. And then we don't trust

framings on. And then we don't trust that as much and over time a lot of players just shut that off. They go not accurate. So I just had a feeling and

accurate. So I just had a feeling and also your biases and fears that can over for some people they cloud what intuition is. they actually go with

intuition is. they actually go with biases rather than actual intuition. So

I think it's like as I said re kind of creating space for that and over time going what does my intuition feel like and like what kind of things am I what is my intuition picking up quite naturally and if I trusted myself to go with it what's the consequences I think

you just got to over time be brave enough to kind of trust that intuition go with it live and die by it for a period of time and go right how's it helping me is it doing good and then over time you can look back on it and over time most players will realize

there's a lot of knowledge there there's a lot of good reads that come from that I think that's the kind of how to piece it together and it's challenging because if you're a very logical player who likes solvers, who likes to use a lot of data, all of a sudden you're like, "What

am I doing? I'm just throwing that out the window. I've just done all this work

the window. I've just done all this work on studying the game and I'm just going for a read. This is back to 1998 poker.

What's going on? Why why am I a field-based player?" That's always

field-based player?" That's always looked down on. They're fieldbased

compared to a logic. So, I think it's just trying to connect all those pieces and realize that intuition is actually really smart. It's like super like the

really smart. It's like super like the supercomput that drives everything.

Millions billions of data points that are coming together in one moment in a split second. Like, how crazy is that?

split second. Like, how crazy is that?

and to learn to lean into that. I think

uh I think the players need to learn.

>> Yeah. Because that knowledge is there, right? Even all these hours of solic

right? Even all these hours of solic like you said, it's not like you basically go it's not like you just go pure back on the feeling like you know or hotel or something, right? No, it is all this you I feel like a lot of

players they kind of get in their own way and try to memorize all these kind of things. Whereas if you would really

of things. Whereas if you would really ask yourself the question and like I said trust yourself and give yourself permission and give space in your decision-making process for your knowledge like well what do you actually

think wacko well if you ask me you know and then that's where kind of the intuition comes up I think a good example is like for example you go into uh I always ask students like if I do

oneonone is like what do you do before a session and sometimes they show me like five pages of like notes that they that they overload themselves and like yeah this

Maybe you should just write down like like I said okay focus on the key key things in the hands and from there trust yourself that you will be able to figure it out and then from that state of trust

and curiosity and confidence you'll be surprised what actually comes out way more and way better results than trying to memorize all these things that you have written down in your list like it

gets you in the wrong state and from that state you cannot access all the knowledge that you actually have especially if you are have already

played poker for a long time, right?

>> Yeah. Yeah. I think I think um I think that in this in in this regard of uh of getting in your own way, one

thing that helps me and I again I I I fall back into like the wrong patterns like all the time and I think it has a lot to do with ego is that there's periods of time where I'm trying to play

good, right? And I think that's a really

good, right? And I think that's a really bad habit to try to play good because you're trying to be someone you're not, right? Like if you ask like the wack if

right? Like if you ask like the wack if you ask Waco what's the right play and wo would answer the wrong qu the wrong give the wrong answer then you're [ __ ]

anyway. So so so like if I say what's

anyway. So so so like if I say what's the right answer and Serio comes up with the wrong answer then it doesn't matter how much I think how much like if Ser doesn't have the right answer I'm not

going to have it. So I might as well make the mistake. So I think dropping ego is is I think what like because I find it myself like when I'm trying to play good I stop asking Serio. I start

trying to be like let's try to be more like this other player. Let's try to try to figure out how to get this thing right or that thing right. And and at some point when I realize

I have to ask myself as you said and if I get it wrong, if asking myself gives the wrong answer, then I must might as well just get the wrong answer now and and

look at it later and figure it out. Then

just try to avoid the wrong answer. Just

just make just make a mistake and and then figure it out later.

>> Yeah. Which then comes to the complicated relationship with mistakes and how you internalize making a mistake. Is it a judgment that you're

mistake. Is it a judgment that you're not good enough? You're not smart enough or is it something a learning point? Is

it oh didn't know what to do there.

Interesting. I will tag that look at it later. Sergio, what's been your

later. Sergio, what's been your relationship with mistakes as you've been trying to trust yourself and realizing Sergio doesn't know the answer in that spot? How have you been able to internalize that in in game and both

after game as well?

Uh yeah, I think I think I I definitely I definitely have like this this running problem with with like ego and and and

this like trying to play good and and when I get in that mindset, I really start not wanting to make mistakes, right? And that is like I think that's

right? And that is like I think that's fatal for your strategy. Like once you start not wanting to make mistakes, you're going to miss so many plays that you would have figured out. Uh and and

so yeah, I don't know. Uh I think I think it's ego. I think

it's ego. I think if if I want to improve at this, I just have to make I just find need to find ways to like low just dropping my ego

entirely and not trying to not trying to play in a way that is not my natural way to play. Like if a play is natural to

to play. Like if a play is natural to me, then that's the play. And if it's wrong, then too bad. Uh so yeah, it's hard to do that.

>> Yeah, exactly. It's like the ego is in the way in terms of what's blocking you from having access to that. Because you

think about it, you are able to play your best you could in that moment. Just

allow yourself to make good decisions without having to be good, be smart, be right. What gets in the way of that?

right. What gets in the way of that?

It's just the ego that wants to be smart, wants to be clever, wants to uh show that you're good at something. Um

yeah, it kind of reminds me Rene, I think it was one of your priming statements for session. And I think you wrote something like today I want to have fun, want to be curious, and I want to trust myself. Something like simple like that. It's like that state if you

like that. It's like that state if you could just cultivate that like how how much more like good decisions would you make? How much more fun would it be? How

make? How much more fun would it be? How

much more would you learn in that process just by allowing yourself to to trust yourself. I think this comes down

trust yourself. I think this comes down to we often treat poker a bit too seriously like we're too attached to being right. We're too attached to being

being right. We're too attached to being smart in the moment. Not realizing we're playing a game. It should be fun. You

should be learning. You should be wow.

Look at all these all the things that are happening. I'm trying my best to

are happening. I'm trying my best to navigate this as a limited human. I'm

struggling like every other human, but this is really interesting what I'm learning in this process. So, I think the more we can drop that ego and just kind of live in that moment, um yeah, you don't hopefully you don't need to hit rock bottom to get there in terms of

allowing yourself to to play freely.

>> Yeah, 100%. I think especially what you said about uh yeah I think I think that the seriousness that we like when when

when I look at like how high stakes players like talk about a certain matchup or it's like it's very ser it's like life or death. It's like uh it's

like this guy is worse than me therefore I must crush it. It's like dude it's just just a [ __ ] game. like just play the guy. Maybe he beats you. Maybe you

the guy. Maybe he beats you. Maybe you

win. You're going to have fun. You it's

going to be a story that you can tell your grandkids one day. Like just just just have fun. Uh and I try to tell that myself because it's really easy to get absorbed to like this this seriousness

of of is Yeah. Just try it's like we it's like we're adults now. It's about

money. It's like it's it's about making money. Like I don't know. Like I think

money. Like I don't know. Like I think it's better to just see it as a journey and uh but it's hard. I mean I I definitely get I definitely don't get it

right all the time.

>> Yeah. I think the more your identity and selfworth is tied to being smart and good at poker, the harder that becomes just to have fun. If you're having to battle to prove your to validate yourself to yourself or your peer group

and you haven't had the success you want in poker or you still feel like you've got a chip on your shoulder, it becomes harder and harder to uh actually practically do that. So yeah, I think it's a work progress for almost everybody. So yeah, hopefully it's a

everybody. So yeah, hopefully it's a good good reminder to players who are working on that. I want to touch on something before I forget. H we noticed a picture of you on a down swing. You

were painting. You painted this like really like interesting painting. Is

that something you've turned to as a kind of coping mechanism like maybe to uh get your emotions out there or how have you used painting especially during down swings and what what does that give you that that process?

>> I think I think art in general I've always been very artistic like I've always since like all my friends from my hometown are musicians. I played in a

band with my friends like I've always drawn a lot. I've always painted.

Well, painting I picked up more recently but um I think it reminds me I think like in a

way poker is a sport in a way, but in another way it's not because you're never actually going to

get like that meritocracy that that is more um common in sports, right? like the best

wins, right? In poetry, you're not going

wins, right? In poetry, you're not going to get that so clear-cut.

So, I think it's better to see it as a journey, as an experience, as like something you're doing so that when you're on your deathbed and you look back, you're like, "That was a [ __ ]

blast, right?" like it's I try to look

blast, right?" like it's I try to look at it as a journey and sometimes I forget and I guess in the seriousness in this like hyper competitiveness and hyper like

um you know winning and losing is the most important thing in the world and I guess just like making art or like or f or I like going to the museum sometimes right

focusing on those and and trying to remind myself like it's it's more of a journey than anything else it's it's not really it's it's yeah it's just uh I try to look at it like it's something

I'm doing. So that again like when when

I'm doing. So that again like when when my grandkids ask me like about my life, I'm like I lost so much money is this guy. He was

like like I can like all those things that it's now are like getting on my nerves that I'm able to tell them as like a badge of honor, right? So um

yeah, I think it helps me in that way just reminding myself that it's that it's all like a journey.

>> Yeah. And I think also art like brings you back to like the moment. Like art is like an expression of the now. It's

expression of the current moment you're in and what you're kind of feeling.

Whereas often in poker we're trying to get somewhere. We're trying to get a

get somewhere. We're trying to get a result. Whereas art kind of brings you

result. Whereas art kind of brings you back to that what we talked about having fun, being creative, um giving yourself permission to fail, give yourself permission to do a bad painting or whatever it is. So yeah, I think it kind of links well to what we're saying about

that that state of trying to get back to or just being in the moment, having fun, being curious. I think art can be a

being curious. I think art can be a really good expression for that as well.

So it sounds like for you it's it's always been something you've you've went back to.

Yeah, 100%. Yeah, especially Especially what you said about uh giving Yeah, it's an environment where you have permission to like there's it's supposed to be bad.

Like the painting is supposed to be look kind of off and and funny. So that's

that's kind of like a good analogy.

>> I seen in your 2 plus two thread you said poker is a sport, not a science.

What makes you feel like poker corres?

Well, poker in a way it's not sport because of that meritocracy uh point but in another way it is as opposed to how

people like people are are thinking that what they people confuse theory with with practice a lot right people confuse uh the kinds

of exploits you can do in in your mind when you have two hours to come up with them versus in the moment the kind of strategies the balance balance that you

can come up with. And like for example, you you could be playing against a player and if you look at poker as a science, maybe you see him get the

blocker wrong or the suit wrong, you're like, "This guy, this guy's bad, right?"

But you would never be like if you saw two people in a boxing match and one of them at at one at the round 12 he's like he drops his his shoulder a little bit.

You you would be like oh this guy sucks.

No, he's like he's [ __ ] tired and this match has been going for for a while like like people are are missing that that uh

mistakes and and imprecision and fuckups and all those things are part of the game is is is a integral part of the game, right? Like energy

management for example, right? In in

boxing the biggest difference between a good boxer and a bad boxer, the good boxer can last for longer, right? Uh well, maybe in poker there are things like that and no

one really considers, right? Like can

you go can you lose four buyins and be less tilted than your opponent? Can you

like those little considerations that seem like um I mean they're kind of obvious when you point them out, but they're more like sport oriented. Like you think about it

sport oriented. Like you think about it like like a sport.

>> Yeah. I think it's dealing with the limitations of being a human and trying to realize, okay, we've got many leaks.

We're trying to perform our best, but as a human, we're very limited with our energy, our focus, how we deal with emotions, how we deal with down swings, how we're trying to execute this simple/complex strategy that we're

trying to uh to to figure out against this opponent type in this moment in time. So, yeah, I feel like with that

time. So, yeah, I feel like with that like sport is a really good analogy for that because it's very similar in terms of competition. There's just two humans

of competition. There's just two humans who are doing doing their best. Nothing

is kind of complete. You never really master sport. you never there's always

master sport. you never there's always someone who comes better later down the line who's a bit more advanced a bit more who push the sport forwards and I think poker is kind of the same whereas science kind of has more hard rules there's right and wrong you can prove

stuff disprove stuff there's hypothesis you work towards and it feels like solvers kind of trick us into thinking oh there's solvers therefore there's a science of poker let's just study the solver and then I get my degree in poker and I can beat everyone in the world

then all of a sudden you realize wait a second there's some benefits but there's also a limitation with that model as well so I think it's a I really correlate well with what that kind of analogy as well of the sport. All right.

So, you mentioned like habits. You care

a lot about building skills over the long term. I think this is a really

long term. I think this is a really important thing because I feel like a lot of people are after quick fixes and they're after kind of how do I get to the top? What's my top five habits I

the top? What's my top five habits I need in the next six months to get to to where I need to be? For you, you think about habits in terms of long-term skill progression. So, for you in terms of

progression. So, for you in terms of being a successful poker player, what are some of the skills you feel like are important to develop over the long term that you need to put a lot of time into building?

Um well again it's it's like all of the above is uh is looking maybe starting with the solver reviewing hands trying to think about things exploitatively

trying to think about is like is doing things every day in the right direction like I don't believe in this like grindset mindset like the let's yeah we

need to like run a thousand miles every morning hey maybe some people can I'm a lazy [ __ ] So I I can't do it. Uh so I

at least for myself I always like try to figure out how can I do this in a way that when things are going wrong when I don't want to do it when like how can I

do it for years and years to come right so I think that's a big part of it just yeah just all all of the above uh but in

a sustainable way. Are you grinding hard, studying solvers, reviewing hands, but still not getting those results that you know you're capable of? You're

putting in the time and effort, but without clear direction, that effort does not pay off. That is why I created the Mechanics Leakbuster program, which

is the exact system I used to make over seven figures playing online poker and have since taught to hundreds of students so they could do the same.

Through our league finder stats and pop-ups, you will gain clarity on your biggest leaks and tendencies, insights on how your strategies have been performing in game, and the impact

variance has had on your results. But

knowing your stats is only the beginning. In the program, we dig deep

beginning. In the program, we dig deep into the root causes behind your leaks and tendencies and use a proven sevenstep system to fix them for good and gain the skills to improve and

continuously evolve. As a poker player,

continuously evolve. As a poker player, you'll study more effectively, overcome leaks and tendencies that felt impossible to break, and rebuild trust and confidence in your game, finally

seeing your hard work pay off as you move up the stakes. So, if you're ready to stop guessing and start improving with clarity, break through the patterns that have been holding you back, and

take your game to the next level, join the Mechanics Leakbuster program using the link down below. Yeah, I think it's again it comes back to simplicity. It's

often what's the goal and what are the behaviors that move me towards that goal over time and can I do those consistently? How many hours of

consistently? How many hours of grinding? Is it five? Is it eight for

grinding? Is it five? Is it eight for you? How many hours of studying? What

you? How many hours of studying? What

things I need to do for my mind and body on a regular basis? And can I do do them day after day after day through down swings through upswings? And just get those kind of reps in. And I think for a lot of people, they go through periods of kind of high motivation. Everything's

dialed in and then they go they're like low motivation and things kind of fall apart. I think the kind of key to

apart. I think the kind of key to longevity to high performance is dialing in those kind of non-negotiables. It's

like every day you're kind of fine tuning skills. You're doing things that

tuning skills. You're doing things that move you towards your goals, at least in the direction of your goals. And

sometimes that means taking a break. It

means easing off a bit because you have self-awareness to realize you're burning yourself out. But I think sometimes we

yourself out. But I think sometimes we again over complicate it feels like a common theme of this conversation. We

over complicate what we think needs to happen when in reality there's a lot of small things just done consistently. So

for you, if you could simplify your life and look at the things that move the performance needle and move you towards your goals the most. If we could simplify that three or five maybe daily habits, what are the most important ones for you?

>> For me, it's I find it pretty important and and I I've heard different very different opinions. But for me, doing

different opinions. But for me, doing like a quick warm-up, uh, like reviewing hands or doing the whatever, like drilling in the solver, just doing whatever before a session, just like 10,

20 minutes to me, it's that's quite important habit because, and again, I've heard people that say like it's actually bad because it kind of like uses up your energy.

But maybe my problem is that I'm too dispersed throughout my day. like if I'm if I'm not in poker right now, it's I need some time to like slowly get myself

into it. So, I think that's definitely

into it. So, I think that's definitely part of it. Um,

you know, hand review is I I don't think I think I don't think what I do is special. It's just doing, you know, half

special. It's just doing, you know, half an hour, an hour a day and doing it well. Just doing like

well. Just doing like like Yeah. Not looking at a hand because

like Yeah. Not looking at a hand because you need to study more like because you care because you actually care about you find it interesting because this is an interesting hand. What happened the so I

interesting hand. What happened the so I think you need to find ways to like excite yourself about uh poker in general just trying to care

about the because it is interesting. So

and so you have to make it fun for yourself.

Uh yeah. Uh but but I would say that that

yeah. Uh but but I would say that that the important part is that it's deliberate that that it's like that you're not doing it for the sake of it.

That if it's 30 minutes that is like 30 true minutes of true thought put into the game. Uh because some people say I

the game. Uh because some people say I study six hours and it's like how how many of these six hours are like air?

like how how many is I don't believe it.

I I'm calling [ __ ] on that.

[laughter] >> Yeah, I think that's really important as well when you're trying to like learn from what someone else is doing. It's

very easy to go, oh, you do the 10 20 minutes of drilling, you do the highness review, and you think it's like a tick a box game. Okay, I do that as well. But

box game. Okay, I do that as well. But

it's the intensity you bring. It's the

curiosity you bring. It's doing it because it's moving towards your goals and it's full engagement whilst you're there. I think a lot of people kind of

there. I think a lot of people kind of miss that. they kind of simplify things

miss that. they kind of simplify things to just like a checklist when in reality it's like you've got to do this intentionally because you care because you want to be there and give your all to it. Very different to the six hours

to it. Very different to the six hours of watching videos and say it's a a six hour deep study block. So yeah, I think that's a important thing to note there as well. Uh Renee, for you, what are

as well. Uh Renee, for you, what are some of the most important habits that you've been doing recently that help with performance?

Um actually in a similar way to what SA actually said if you get into a poker session you kind of have to get your brain in in the right state. Uh so for

me I think two things are kind of crucial. I always do some sort of

crucial. I always do some sort of meditation or breathing before play. I

just notice it calms down my brain and like breathing exercises specifically or for example possibly followed up with a cold shower. I noticed that I just never

cold shower. I noticed that I just never I reduce the amounts of time that I kind of choke in game. So I just feel way sharper. I don't panic. So I think

sharper. I don't panic. So I think that's that's like very crucial for me.

Um another thing that's very important is kind of what Sarah just said, reviewing hands, but I kind of look more at hands of things that I want to see more of. So I kind of I call this kind

more of. So I kind of I call this kind of a highlight reel. So I have a folder with hands specifically that show like good plays that I've been making and that I want to see more of. So I kind of

go over that. Let's say I have 20 hands or 20 concepts that I want to that that I really want to kneel down. I go, "Oh yeah, that that was great. That was

great. That was great." And then guess what? If you if you look at 20 great

what? If you if you look at 20 great hands of yourself, you know, in there there are things that you're like, "Yeah, this is good. This is what I need to do more of." And sometimes, you know, it can be like team specific. Oh, this

has been slacking, so I'll put a couple extra hands. You know, it's not like

extra hands. You know, it's not like great hero call or a great play. Like

it's it can be easier things than that.

Just remind us that like this is important something something very easy but important to remind yourself. So

yeah, and then you sit down and basically you already saw all the spots.

You're like, yeah. And then you go play and you notice the situation game. Oh

yeah, this is the hand that I saw. This

is what I was setting out to do. And

then you kind of automatically do it.

I'm a very big believer that how you play is a uh is a reflection of the stage you're in. And the stage you're in is determined by what you did before you start playing. So, and that kind of line

start playing. So, and that kind of line I think aligns nicely what Sarah just said about kind of the sport element, right? And that we are humans. We have a

right? And that we are humans. We have a brain. You cannot just expect to sit

brain. You cannot just expect to sit down and that greatness comes out. It's

not a science.

>> Yeah, I've tried the the meditation thing a few times. I think I think it's pretty helpful. I think also

pretty helpful. I think also for sure, maybe I should add it to my my roster, but but another thing that I think helps with like this like mental

stillness in game is like doing reviews of hands that are really really tough because it helps myself like when I'm in game and I face those like really tough

decisions like your your brain is like this like it let's say you face like you have like the exactly the hand that doesn't want to face to shove and you get shelled on, right? And the first thing your brain goes is the [ __ ] Why

this time? I like can't you shove when I

this time? I like can't you shove when I have the knots, bro? Like just why do now? And that's like precious time that

now? And that's like precious time that if you get used to like reviewing hands that are really tough.

You train your brain to is even if you don't learn anything about the hand, you're practicing the the act of facing the really tough decision and going into like puzzle mode like okay, let's figure

this out. It's it's it's actually a fun.

this out. It's it's it's actually a fun.

It's actually fun. I actually I actually want you to show off. I have the hand. I

actually want you to show up because now I get to do my little puzzle, right? I

think that that also helps me a lot.

Yeah. So, I would then, for example, grab that hand uh and put that in my precession. And if

I look at that hand, that hand is there because of how how I managed to figure out this tough spot, right? So like it's not like the hand itself but sometimes I put in a hand just because I like the

way I came to a decision in that hand or I liked me isolating the most important factor in that hand. You know, like a hand, if I would send a hand to you, you would not get the same thing from the

hand that I would get because it could remind me just for example a certain feeling that I had in that moment. Or

for example, there could be a hand that I check back based on like a timing tell >> for example. You can't you wouldn't be able to see you have a player >> like you you don't recall but I recall very exactly that because of the timing

I played this hand. So I have that hand in my presession to remember to as to remind me that timing reviews something about your opponent's holding and it's something I should take in consideration, you know, so stuff like

that.

>> Yeah. Yeah.

>> I actually maybe I should do that because I have this problem very often that I forget things like I there's things I do well and then I spend like

one or two months that I forget to do that thing that was great. So maybe

maybe that actually reminding myself of like what things I'm good at can be like a pretty good exercise.

>> Yeah, it it just also helps with confidence building. Like you said, I I

confidence building. Like you said, I I was very similar in the past where I would kind of make a plane but like yeah, of course, you know, of course I should make this play. I think I'm a good player. So, you know, you kind of

good player. So, you know, you kind of rub it off and that kind of is kind of a waste. I remember I did a session with

waste. I remember I did a session with uh Jared Tendler about this long time ago and he told me to start reinforcing and kind of build like a bank of proof that I can be confident about my game. I

was like, "Huh?" So, and for example, there's players that do this like before the session, they look at hands, but they often look at hands that they played wrong. Like, oh, I shouldn't make

played wrong. Like, oh, I shouldn't make this mistake anymore. I shouldn't make this mistake and I shouldn't make this.

Well, guess what? If you if you if you do like a highlight reel of all the things that you did wrong before you play, probably you don't feel as confident as if you would get the same situation but a good execution, you

know, of the situation. So, it's like a highlight reel or a confident bank, I think I've also heard it called in, uh in uh uh in sports psychology. Uh so,

yeah, definitely uh I would definitely recommend uh trying that out. [snorts]

Um I I wanted to touch on one thing that you said with Adam. I think you one of the click moments for you is that when you were back to playing 50NL, you said to yourself, okay, I'm going to play 50

and L, but in a way that I get the highest win rate possible. So, you had a clear intention. Now, probably

clear intention. Now, probably everyone's like, yeah, okay, I also want the highest rate possible, but there is something almost magical about setting that clear intention, right? And being

very precise.

What what is it practically that you changed? And I'm curious what about that

changed? And I'm curious what about that approach you still apply now and what of it has evolved because I can imagine that you know getting the highest win rate at 50NL maybe getting the highest

win rate at 5k is different but I'm sure there's still overlap.

>> Yeah. I I think that the the main overlap is the the mindset. It's like

the look like when you face a problem your brain is going to find is always going to find solutions but depending on how you ask the question you're going to get different solutions. So I think how

you ask the question is is important.

uh at 50 and I mean the reality at 15NL is that people are constantly telling you what they have like that's the main thing right and and when I

when I um just drop the [ __ ] remember like I had to move down to I dropped the [ __ ] I'm like I'm not a poker genius I'm just like uh how do I

make the most money possible play 15 it's like when I ask that question some is like oh I I think that he has this maybe. I mean, I could be wrong, but I

maybe. I mean, I could be wrong, but I think he has this. Let's try to like do this and see what happens. And and and that's that's really what it is. Like,

so my recommendation if you're playing 50 is just like pay attention to what people are telling you that they have and do what you think is better against

that. and and obviously sometimes it's

that. and and obviously sometimes it's not going to work because they don't have that always but um yeah just I would say at low stakes if you treat

everyone as face up all the time on average whatever you do is going to work on average obviously not every instance but on average >> how does at at high stakes I mean >> yeah I was going to ask like how does

this philosophy/mindset look like applied at high stakes right now for example for you >> yeah so it doesn't apply is so directly like people are a little bit more structured like they've studied with

solvers and they're trying to like oh the seed sizing in this spot um but I guess there's more there's

subtleties right like you're you're maybe trying to figure out um I don't know it applies in in more

subtle ways like people can have a bit of a wrong range not like a fully wrong range change the construction but like a little bit of a wrong range construction and then maybe you can make a play that

wins a little bit more than it should.

Uh but also I think I think it's like when you ask the question right instead of like how do I play good if you ask like how do I make money you come up with

more creative like I find myself that I think most of high stakes at least the way I approach it is about trying to figure out other

players right it's not so much about like doing something against everyone all the same it's more about like trying to figure out each player And I find that sometimes the solutions

I find to certain problems is something I never did against anyone else.

Uh so and but the only reason I find that solution is because I'm trying at least to ask the right question

>> and that is how do I beat this specific opponent like at high stakes you know obviously because the pool gets smaller you play more against specific individuals. So you know exploiting and

individuals. So you know exploiting and tailoring your strategies towards individuals become more important. So I

guess in your evolvement towards high stakes that became a more important part of your process. Was it maybe like at 15l you're focusing more okay what does a pool on average do wrong? How can I exploit that? And now it's more based on

exploit that? And now it's more based on individuals.

>> Yeah.

Yeah. Like at 15 I could probably just like put a like put my hand over the screen and not even see who it is and I would just treat them all the same. Uh

oh actually I mean actually when I when I remember back at 15 there's like certain player tag that come to mind it's like oh this guy oh he did this thing uh I think it's just like when you ask

the right question your focus starts finding [ __ ] that seems amazing like I remember read that I had on on on players at 50 and L that I remember one

specific player that I had a read that I knew exactly when he was bluffing and exactly when he was value betting. So

the win rate there is like immensely right like it's it's insane. So, um,

yeah, I think in terms of like the sport aspect of of poker, focus is like such a precious like focus is like the most precious resource. And

precious resource. And if you find ways to ask the right questions, to place your focus in the right things, you're going to come up with ways to increase your win rate that

I couldn't I couldn't tell you what it is because it's going to be something that that you're going to be creative on your own and and and figure out.

You mentioned uh that obviously like at higher stakes your uh the opponents get tougher but I think we also had a brief chat before this conversation about that

we aligned that the greatest opponent is actually yourself like we often focus on in poker uh that you know we have to beat all these opponents. How much is it

about beating the opponents that you're playing against at the table compared to beating the greatest opponent in my opinion, which is yourself?

>> Yeah.

>> Yeah. I mean, I think it's I think it's all related, but I think at least in terms of mental game, if if anything, if if it was just because of mental game,

it's better to see it as as a battle against yourself because that allows you to drop your ego a little bit. when you

see it as a fight against other people and I need to be better than this guy like that's really a bad question to ask like how do I become better than this

guy is is terrible question right uh so I think I think CN I I tell myself I don't do this

perfectly but I tell myself to I try to have like a solistic view of poker like my opponents don't even exist they're just like data points. I'm just

like going through my own uh journey and they're just like little data points that are appearing on my screen. I'm

just like trying to figure out how how like what does this mean? Like with all this data that they're sending me like how can I use it uh to solve my little puzzle like I don't I try to tell myself

to not really care uh that there's someone at the other side of the screen really.

So yeah, it's more about my myself myself also like the emotional aspect like uh figuring out like like what you said

the that the way you place a reflection of your state at at that given time. Uh

so trying to to understand to discover yourself to figure out like how can I know in which state I am and what that bias leads to? What kinds of mistakes

should I be kind of like a bit more like looking after? Um how can I improve my

looking after? Um how can I improve my mental state? How can I maybe increase

mental state? How can I maybe increase my volume when I'm really feeling myself and like reduce volume when I don't think I'm I have it at that time. Right?

That's hard. I I think honestly if I I think at this point I think I have a decent degree of of understanding of when I'm like I call it like my mojo

like when I have my mojo I kind of I kind of know and if I just increase my volume a lot when I have it and reduced it when I don't that would be like huge for my

>> So how do you know that you have your mojo? What are like the first signs?

mojo? What are like the first signs?

Um, when when I have it, it feels like I'm not trying to play well. I'm not trying to

appease the any like outside uh system or structure. I'm just

like I just maybe I'm maybe I'm even losing, right? Maybe maybe I'm losing in

losing, right? Maybe maybe I'm losing in the session and maybe I lost eight buyins, but I like I can definitely tell I kind of have very losing sessions, but

if I have my mojo, I'm like I'm feeling I'm like yes, like uh cuz because I don't know, I can just tell because let's say you're playing someone heads up, right? And you get coolered five

up, right? And you get coolered five times for stacks, right? But there's

something that you think is working that's like making you like five blinds every few hundred hands in EV, right?

And when you do it, you feel it. It's

like I think this wins like a few blinds. Like I can feel that that it

blinds. Like I can feel that that it wins a few blinds. Yeah. You're going to get stacked and lose four blinds, but you still feel like So, okay. So this is

the sign for me when I feel like I have my mojo is when I see myself finding very big edges like I just sit at the table and I'm just playing and suddenly

something comes to mind like this is the this is a big one right if I'm and sometimes I don't feel that for a while sometimes I'm playing it's

like I'm not getting those that sense then it's a sign that I'm really not like yeah I'm not in my a game, let's

say.

>> I love this. And this comes back to again the philosophy of it. It's all a battle against yourself. It's a battle against you trying to get in that right state, right? Find find your mojo. It's

state, right? Find find your mojo. It's

you. It's always a battle against you showing up. It's a battle against you

showing up. It's a battle against you showing up curious and, you know, looking for things to pick up on, right?

Because sometimes, you know, you feel like you're just a bit in a rut. You go

in autopilot. Again, it's a battle against yourself, right? right? It has

nothing to do with your opponents. And I

like it because it all it it does all start with uh like a a fundamental truth or belief that people indeed do have leaks, that people give away all

information all the time. And that then that tied to a goal of okay, I'm not here to just make sure that I'm winning, but I want to have the highest win rate.

That's when you start to look for things, right? Like, oh wow, this this

things, right? Like, oh wow, this this is this is insane. I I I definitely agree with you. Like there's nothing better in poker than to having done your homework and you see you just click the

buttons and even though it doesn't go your way, you see the exploits working and you just feel the money come to you.

Even though it doesn't come to you, you feel it come to you. There's a certain amount of confidence because you see it like it works, it works, it works and he doesn't notice, but you know, uh, and then you just feel it coming to you. And

it doesn't matter that he coolers you or whatever. It's like you're you're in

whatever. It's like you're you're in peace because you know, right? you get

your evidence from other hands. Uh so

yeah, I can I can I can very strongly relate. I I saw you mentioned that

relate. I I saw you mentioned that um you believe that there are multiple different successful ways of playing poker like you see this at high stakes as well, right? Different strategies can

generate EV, people, you know, have different views on different points. Um,

[snorts] how do you how has your strategy evolved uh over the years and how would you

describe your current approach?

>> Yeah, I think I think there's basically like two I think there's basically two major approaches to poker from like a

sport point of view. It's almost I think I'm really bad at chess, but I like watching chess content. And they also have this kind of like dichotomy of like the really like sharp player

that tries to create like very volatile situations and like the really like controlled player. I think that's like

controlled player. I think that's like the two major like some what I find at high sticks that some players their edge comes from like trying to like dry up the game like make making the game very

dry and very like boring almost and then trying to like outmaneuver you in that like very dry environment.

And I think that the other kind of player is the the opposite where you're trying to like make something big happen. Like if if things dry up, you're

happen. Like if if things dry up, you're going to lose, right? Like I think I'm more of this type of player. things get

boring.

Um, maybe I don't lose, but I feel less comfort. I guess I'm just a chaotic

comfort. I guess I'm just a chaotic person. I I uh yeah, I guess I'm a

person. I I uh yeah, I guess I'm a chaotic person. I feel more comfortable

chaotic person. I feel more comfortable when things are kind of getting out of hand, right? I like it when when when

hand, right? I like it when when when I'm doing something and the other guy knows that and he's trying and everything is like is going insane. It's

kind of like that that environment. I

think it's it's a personality type. I

think it's a how comfortable you are with uh chaos and uh or or structure, I guess.

>> What is the most chaotic strategy you've experimented with?

>> Uh it's it's almost like I don't even try to do it's it just comes out naturally. like I think you give me a

naturally. like I think you give me a strategy or a or a data point and my way of addressing it

is very it leads to observed situations. uh

uh whereas other people maybe like for example some players would say like you need to make sure that your exploits are hidden right so that the opponent

doesn't doesn't ever realize but I think that at a certain level people realize anyway like even if you

make your exploit like small it it becomes kind of obvious quite fast So, I don't know. I maybe maybe players

who play against me could could probably agree with this that when I'm doing something, it's kind of like it goes crazy quite easily. And it's not it's not necessarily that I'm hyper

aggressive because I'm I'm I'm not like I'm I'm more of a blue line uh guy, but I guess it's more like the willingness that I'm that I have to go into like a

really weird like into the street poker basically um straits.

>> So you kind of back yourself if you feel like you have a good read, you're willing to go quite outside of the box in order to to follow that read.

You know, there there's guys that are like, "No, they feel like they have something and they go one pip too wide or you know, but you're like, "No, okay, this is my read all in or nothing."

>> Yeah. Or also like the level of confidence that you need to make an adjustment, right? If I kind of feel

adjustment, right? If I kind of feel like maybe this is good, then I'm probably going to do it. Whereas other

players are maybe waiting for like let's let's make sure that this is good before because this is like if if I do it and it's wrong like the solver is like daddy

is gonna wag his finger at me. So uh I'm more like look I don't know if this is good but I feel it. I feel like it.

Let's just [ __ ] it. Let's try it.

>> I can relate that actually. I feel like I've evolved in in this area. In the

past, that same feeling would come up, but I don't feel like I was confident enough. I would then mark the spot,

enough. I would then mark the spot, always take the passive route. So, I

would not follow my my read and I would review it afterwards. Nowadays, I feel like I I'm kind of the same as you. When

I feel like it's good at the moment, I'm like, "Fuck it. Let's just do it and we we will reevaluate after." So I I feel like my confidence in my own reads has increased that I'm now able to just pull

the trigger. Uh whereas in the past I

the trigger. Uh whereas in the past I would recognize the same situation but I would not pull the trigger. I needed

more I needed more evidence in a way right.

>> Yeah.

>> Yeah. I think I think part of it is like in increasing your confidence and but also part of it is like reducing like the threshold of conf like you don't need to be like so confident like

I don't think I'm a very confident person I'm just like willing to [ __ ] it up right I'm just willing to to you know this is bad well it's bad I don't know >> yeah it it comes two ways in order to

make the play obviously you need a certain amount of confidence and you need to do the work right to establish the read But you know there's always

this this kind of uncomfortability and willingness to be wrong that you you cannot only only study and try to feel as confident in order to at some point you have to just accept that by doing

this you also going to be wrong sometimes and I feel like that's kind of the moment where it clicked for me. It's

like I'm every time trying to build confidence with this study with strategy blah blah blah but I also need to take a leap of faith and just trust myself and then if it backfires that's okay. So

that I feel like for me was kind of from a mental game uh uh perspective kind of the final step that I had to take. I

don't know if you can relate or if you never had any any issues on on that on that side.

No, I definitely like as I said when I started playing poker I like I I had it in me to to like just through playing other games like I I had

it in me to just like figure it out on my own but I was stopping myself, right?

I was uh for sure like there's there's no way it's this easy, right? There's

there's no way this works. Like this is too basic, right? That's why that's why I like telling myself like poker is simple. It's so like when I come up with

simple. It's so like when I come up with this objection like no this is too simple. It's like okay yes then that's

simple. It's like okay yes then that's that's the right that's the right answer. Um

answer. Um so yeah it definitely is also something that has come with time but it could have come earlier if I just uh didn't

believe when other people were like rambling about solver [ __ ] If I just didn't believe them, then I would probably have gotten there faster.

[laughter] When you uh started to play the the higher stakes, how did you notice the the players played different and how did

you uh go about adjusting to that? Like

how smooth did that transition towards high sex go for you?

Um, I think every time I move up, I have problems. And it's because I think unconsciously, even if I don't realize, I think that it's going to be

different. And I think that there's a

different. And I think that there's a quantitative, no, a qualitative difference like that the players like I

feel insecure that somehow the way I think is not going to work. the things I come up with, my process, my approach is not going to work. And so I always have

trouble uh with that. I would say that in general at high stakes is just it's very is it's just people.

It's just humans doing human stuff, but their intuition and their unconscious ability

to get a lot of small things right is going to be much higher.

And also they experience is very apparent like wis the wisdom that players have that when they look at something they

are they understand what's happening much better than uh than someone who plays lower stakes like uh

I feel like a lot of like for example when it comes to like levely war I don't even like that that term But when it comes to like leveling wars,

uh, usually if you go to like 200 NL, everyone is going to fall for the level zero, right? You do the level zero and

zero, right? You do the level zero and and everyone's, but when you gain some wisdom and you realize that every time you do the level zero, you lose and you lose and you lose and you lose and you lose, it's like, okay, let's try level

one, right? And then maybe you don't

one, right? And then maybe you don't lose all the time. It's like, okay.

Right. And I think through that process of like repeating things, high stakes players get to a point where it's not so simple to see one thing and be like,

"Okay, level one, click the button." No,

like you have to pay attention and and it's it's def it's just harder to you're you're playing people who unconsciously

play better and who understand what they see better. That's I would say the

see better. That's I would say the difference.

How did you deal with the fact that decisions become less clear once you start to play higher opponents or tougher opponents? Because, for example,

tougher opponents? Because, for example, at 15 L, it's easier to isolate that most important factor in the hand because the decision is quite clear because he turned his hand face up.

Obviously, the more they kind of uh kind of hide their information and the more it's like, okay, this spot is closer, the more smaller nuances, like the more you're basically being forced into solver land where you're indifferent.

Obviously, people, you know, still have leaks, etc., But how did you deal with the fact that decisions are less clear and there's a bit more uncertainty and I

guess less control once you start to play uh tougher opponents maybe less situations where you really feel like oh yeah the money flows to me here or is it just a matter of no I'm going to find

it.

>> Yeah it's uh it's hard. I I it's like I'm still learning. I'm still

progressing. But I think that like what I'm kind of finding out for myself is that it's it's still it's it's still about like it's just harder to

find that thing that matters. But

there's still the thing that matters.

And sometimes it's different than uh some because these people have studied for years and they've studied with for thousands of hours and they've played

for thousands and thousands of hours and so their systems and why they do things can be much more complex, right? But

there's still like it's like you have like a spaceship, but one screw is always bad. like you can if you take out

always bad. like you can if you take out one screw the whole thing comes crashing down. So

down. So it's I don't have the the full answer. I mean

I wish I had the perfect answer, but I think it's still about like trying to be creative and asking the right question like how do I beat this guy? How do I beat this guy? I'm not I'm not going to try to be better than him. I'm not going

to try to outplay him. I'm not going to try to to just Yeah. to be more than him. I'm just

just Yeah. to be more than him. I'm just

going to try to win a lot, right?

And um yeah, so it's hard. I I don't think I I have the the full answer, but that's what I try to do. So, it seems like it's still it's still kind of the

same as at 50NL, but obviously you had to build the skills like when you were playing 50, you wouldn't be able to find out how to beat a 5KNL player. You had

to first apply that process on a 50NL player, then 100 LL, then 200NL, and then the things you find on the surface at 50NL, you don't find anymore. So, you

learned to dig deeper.

>> Is that kind of how how you describe it?

>> Yeah. It's it's almost like you can't like because I remember at at let's say at 100 L or 200 L like coming up with a little trick, right? like, "Oh, I think

maybe people here they think like this and therefore they're just going to call always or whatever." And so, let me come up with a trick. And then I remember having conversations like, "How would I do if I was playing against Lionus?"

Like, would I do this or would I do the opposite? Because maybe he thinks like

opposite? Because maybe he thinks like it's like you don't know. like you have to play a lot and you have to see a lot of things and be like oh

it's more common to think in this way than this other way. Uh or people who have this player profile people who usually like GTO players or the MDA

players or this they they have through experience you learn like oh they tend to approach this problem from this perspective like you learn um I don't know I guess

I'm I'm not saying something like groundbreaking. It's just uh it's just

groundbreaking. It's just uh it's just wisdom basically.

>> Do you feel like also the only the only way you learn for example the only way you learn how liners would react is to just sit down and play line is e easier said than done. I feel like a lot of players maybe also listening you know I

feel like a lot of players they they have trouble moving up because you know they feel like they're not ready or they first have to do this for that. For you

it feels a bit the opposite. you're a

bit more willing to jump in there, you know, how have you been able to or what is kind of your mindset that you're able to just jump in and kind of see what happens

>> without obviously obviously you're backing yourself up, right? You're doing

the work, >> but I feel like a lot of players kind of over overp preppare and therefore they never take that leap of faith and jump in.

>> Yeah. Honest I think like sometimes I like even like beat myself up a little bit for for like I'm a little bit of the

not enough table selection type of person, right? And so uh to me it's just

person, right? And so uh to me it's just a very natural thing to do like to just be curious about like what would it be to play against David Jones and then I

just sit him heads up and just play him for a few thousand hands and it's like are you are you dumb? Are you crazy? I

mean, probably losing. I mean, I'm almost certainly losing, but I think maybe I can get something out of this.

Maybe maybe even just like seeing if I understand why why he did something makes me build like this library of of

wisdom. Uh, I don't know. So, it's it's

wisdom. Uh, I don't know. So, it's it's something that for me it's very natural.

I just uh I think it's good. I think

it's good to like a certain amount of volume in your whole database is not going to be like make or

break your win rate. So I think like you know playing tougher table this is actually something my my sports psychologist pushes me a lot to do like

too much like you most most psychologist would be like uh be careful with gambling. I'm He's like, "Uh, you should

gambling. I'm He's like, "Uh, you should play uh this guy head on." I'm like, "I don't know. I mean, it's maybe it's a

don't know. I mean, it's maybe it's a bit much." He's like, "Uh, or or he

bit much." He's like, "Uh, or or he said, or maybe I say like, I I'm going to take a shot at higher stakes." And

then my psychologist is like, "Okay, yeah, then uh uh maybe you should play this guy, whatever." And no, no, I'm going to wait until there's a good table and then I'm going to play the higher stake, right? I'm going to take the shot

stake, right? I'm going to take the shot properly. I'm going to wait for and then

properly. I'm going to wait for and then he's like, "No, no, no. Wait for the tough table and then take the shot." So,

I think I don't know. Uh I think we're both kind of uh we have a loose screw somehow. [laughter]

somehow. [laughter] >> I think I think you you highlight more the upsides and you're okay with the potential downsides of it. You're okay. You know,

you know why you're doing it. It's the

experience. the outcome is like you know assuming that you know you don't put your whole role on the table the outcome is like okay if I lose go buy it you know I I learned something >> so it's I feel like people are too

afraid of the possible downside and they don't see the upside the way that you just explained it maybe >> yeah so I think there's multiple

multiple things like first of all yeah like if you play enough volume at good tables then it's fine to have a losing win rate on a

few thousand hands that you play. Uh,

but also I think it's like the the time frame that I see things at. Like I see things at like five years down the line, right? Like I look at my poker career

right? Like I look at my poker career like a fiveyear thing. Uh, and to like in my mind I'm going to be the best player in the world. Like no no question

about it. Like in my mind is like it's

about it. Like in my mind is like it's going to happen. It's it's it's logical.

It's like when I told my mom it's it's just it's it's kind of obvious. Like

it's logical. Uh so just going through like a down like every time I think about like a downswing that I had last year I don't look at them with like despair or like oh this was so bad and I

just like that was such a good learning experience right uh like playing these player like that was such it helped me so much right and so because I have this

time frame where my bankroll it's a bit kind of like a maniac way of thinking but like maybe my bank roll doesn't mean so much because who because we have five years I'm going to be the best in the world. So, who cares how what my

world. So, who cares how what my bankroll is now? Uh

so, uh yeah, I think it's it's also like the time frame that I see things at.

>> Yeah, that that makes a lot of sense. I

mean, if you have full belief that you're going to make it, then what does it matter if you take a shot and it doesn't work out because you know in the end it's going to work out.

>> Exactly. [laughter]

Um, I was wondering like looking back at your career, what has been one of the most or the biggest strategical breakthrough moments for you?

Uh, the big the biggest strategical breakthroughs. Um,

breakthroughs. Um, I think my biggest strategical breakthrough was this is so wacky.

The like again there's a group like a Discord server where I like post my ramblings and and they they take some of the words that like the words that I say

and they just turn it into memes because I'm kind of like sometimes I I go off the rails just talking about [ __ ] And for me, like a a strategical

breakthrough is like the realization that ranges aren't really real. Like

uh like you can play your range and you can think that you have a range, but maybe I don't think that you have a range. Maybe

I don't agree with you. And it's not clear who's right. Right. is is not even you that you're playing the strategy and you are saying like this is my range. I

can look at it from a different point and say, "Nah, you're wrong. That's

actually not it." And so, I think that looking at the game that way definitely is kind of like my biggest jump in in scale is when I

realize that I can just not agree with someone. Like, they can say that they're

someone. Like, they can say that they're rand.

It's not [laughter] like um I don't know. Like I don't want to like say too many things about how you could figure it out, but like for

example, if you if you're live and someone is just range betting the flop, right? And they just range bet the flop,

right? And they just range bet the flop, right? And the I mean the range is just

right? And the I mean the range is just range betting. The range is the entire

range betting. The range is the entire opening range, right? But maybe what if what if you've seen that every time he

like I don't know taps his foot like slightly stronger, right? Or every time or he talks a certain way or he makes a certain phase or then then he doesn't

know what his range is. Like you don't you you the problem is you can't know what your range is at any time. like you

can say what it is, but you're not necessarily right because it's it's two people with different opinions and different point of views and you're not

always right about your own range.

So, um I think looking at it that way helps me a lot.

How did that realization change how you both played the game, but also how you experienced playing the game?

How did your experience play of playing change?

>> Yeah, it's it's it's like it's hard to it's hard to say but it's it's like I think when I was playing at midstakes I didn't have like this approach

and it's like a very respectful game.

It's like oh you're saying that your range is this?

>> I'm going to believe you and I'm going to play my range like this. But then

let's say from my point of view now as as a better player than I was back then if I go back down to 500NL there would be a lot of things that they

are doing that they think is a certain range and I'm actually more right than them on what their range is. Uh and so

doing that against weaker players is like huge.

And even even as as a strong player, like you don't actually know, you can't know what your range is because you the decisions you make it all depends on how much information other

people have about why you did what you did, right? If if other people know

did, right? If if other people know exactly why you are doing what you're doing, then you might think that your perceived range is a certain thing and and maybe the other guy knows that it's

not. Uh

not. Uh yeah, it's hard to to without getting too concrete, it's hard to like picture what that would be, but it's just like

infinite. It's just infinite things,

infinite. It's just infinite things, infinite reasons why you could think that your range looks like it's something and

it's not or someone else disagrees and you're not necessarily right or he's not necessarily right. I'm curious like you

necessarily right. I'm curious like you actually talked uh uh earlier with Adam when you started your poke career. Was

there ever any like role model or example that you had that you could make this work other than like obviously you had to believe in yourself but it obviously also helps if you have people

around you like coaches or role models that you can be like hey this guy did it I can do it as well.

Yeah, I think in terms of role models in in my life, not really like I mean at the very beginning I mean like at the very beginning I would just I I had

played poker before like just recreationally a few times like I knew what it was right so and I knew that some people make money so that was like

my motivation there. Later on, I found out about you, about Yuri Pelle, like all these like I would spend a lot of time like watching videos and and doing

all these things.

So, uh yeah, definitely like your approach um kind of like mirrors mine.

Uh well, I guess mine mirrors yours really. It's the other way around. Um

really. It's the other way around. Um

um also I've I've I've been lucky enough that be actually being so solver

autistic actually did help me in a in a big way which was I knew a lot of solver [ __ ] way before I could play the game.

Like way before I was good, way before I could uh make good decisions, I knew a lot of solver [ __ ] So I could hold

conversations with way better players than me and that helped me a lot. Like I

could hold my own a little bit. And so I made some friends that were better than me. I uh I discussed a lot uh in forums.

me. I uh I discussed a lot uh in forums. was like I'm I'm like I'm I'm a very like debating person. So I I I spend a

lot of time like on two plus two and Discord servers just like arguing and a lot of the players I talked to were clearly way better than me. But maybe in

the technical aspect I could at least like be in the conversation. I could

understand what they were saying. I

could say my own side of the thing. Uh

so I think that was actually a pretty big impact in in me improving.

>> What is the the best advice that you've been given by like these coaches or guys, role models or like people that that kind of helped you uh in your road

moving up? Any any best advices that

moving up? Any any best advices that stick out?

>> Uh you have you have this the the why and not the what, right? Like that's

a that's also an important one. Yuri Pel

has like this idea about like placing your focus outwards rather than inwards. Uh so I mean I guess I'm I'm

inwards. Uh so I mean I guess I'm I'm I'm everything has already been invented. I

I definitely don't say anything new. Uh

>> but you sure give your own twist to things from from what what we've been saying. I think this is also something

saying. I think this is also something that I think you wrote in the questioner that you feel like your approach to poker is a whole lot different. So

obviously while you take information from people I feel like one of your strength is that you don't just randomly copy it. You try to understand it and

copy it. You try to understand it and then like the artist that you are right you already noticed the painting you mentioned that that that you paint as well. As the artist as you are you kind

well. As the artist as you are you kind of make your own piece of art with it.

>> Yeah. Yeah. I think I think that also I think one of the this comes back to something I said before that it's my recommendation to

to uh players who are playing lower stakes is that they come up with a group of players that they kind of disagree

uh about things.

This kind of comes back in a way to it where I one of the reasons why or one of the ways in which I improve is by maybe

these players I was like arguing with or talking about about solver stuff with I would not not but by what they said about like their advice them itself but

I would notice like what they are thinking about much better than me and what they were much better at at at solving than me and that has always

helped me a lot like studying with someone and noticing that he has a certain like but he has a certain pattern that oh like this this is and like oh like he always thinks in this

way and I can't do that so let me try to learn to think that way right and that has helped me a lot I think it helps like patching your your weaknesses but

also it helps you like having a broader understanding of of human psychology, I guess, like how different type of players think.

>> On the contrary, do you what is like some of the, you know, if you spend a lot of time on forums, Discord servers, uh, consuming content, what is kind of the worst advice that you've been given

or that you feel like is often given in the poker community? Oh, too much. Too

much.

>> It's uncountable, right? [laughter] It's

impossible, right? No. Uh,

right? No. Uh,

>> [snorts] >> Yeah. Yeah. No. Uh

>> Yeah. Yeah. No. Uh

I would say the worst advice just any advice that kind of like leads you astray from the right question basically

like uh there are better like if you're playing 10 and L there are players who play 200 and L 500 that are just like

much better than you but they don't know what they are doing that it's working.

They they don't know the out of the hundred things they're doing, they don't know what 10 things matter. And so the advice that they could give you could lead you astray from like you could be

right about what matters as the 10 player. You're just bad at it. But but

player. You're just bad at it. But but

you need to stay focused on on the basically any advice that has to do with like make sure that you get the you know make sure like the hand selection and the frequency and this has to be perfect because otherwise this is going to

happen, right? any anything that's in

happen, right? any anything that's in that vein is complete [ __ ] in my opinion.

>> All right, write that down. Ladies and

gentlemen, something that you pointed out also under the you mentioned earlier the importance of self-awareness. You

said that I think the main thing that you see is that people are really bad at knowing what they're bad at which actually you thought was one of the most important skills uh needed in order to

improve. How do you go about identifying

improve. How do you go about identifying what you're bad at and about improving your game and how has that process evolved over your career?

>> Well, that definitely relates to this idea of talking to either better players than you or different players than you

because they will very quickly bring to light what you're worst at. Right? If

you're honest with yourself, it's going to be quite obvious what they are better at you than you at. Uh so

definitely like yeah, I I think like trying to do the poker thing on your own is too hard. Like you have to find a group

too hard. Like you have to find a group and uh even if it's just one person like you and and and learning from what they do better than you. That's that's a big

one for me.

Also, um I find like analyzing my game is important for this as well. Like

every once in a while, I like go back analyze my game, maybe my database. I go

through things Martans. I try to figure out like what is my the worst thing I'm at? Like let's just try to find the

at? Like let's just try to find the worst one. And that always not only not

worst one. And that always not only not only it's good for like practical reasons but also like it excites me about studying. It excites me about

about studying. It excites me about improving when I see that I'm doing something very wrong now. I'm I have more of a drive to right something to fix like I feel good about that. So I

think yeah having doing a lot of like selfanalysis in whatever way like it could be a million different ways like database review um looking at all all of the marked

tasks that you've marked like in the last whatever like any way that you can kind of like detect your worst mistake. Uh but yeah also the biggest

mistake. Uh but yeah also the biggest thing is comparing your worst trade to someone else's best trait. I think that's the biggest one.

trait. I think that's the biggest one.

Yeah, these these the this complic this the this kind of complement each other uh very nicely. Like I I can definitely relate with you also in what you were talking about previous with Adam like poker is most enjoyable when you have

things to work on right so when you when you have leagues that you're improving when you are when you have strategies that you can try to apply uh deploy in game that's when poker's most exciting

right if I have nothing to work on I immediately feel it like you feel empty it doesn't matter if you won or lost you feel kind of empty you're kind of going through the motions it's like ah yeah you know you can have won I don't know

how much money it doesn't matter because you feel like you have not used this session to improve. So for example, if I analyze my database, surprise surprise

guys, I find plenty of leaks. Uh how do you prioritize like what to work on?

[snorts] Uh, I guess I mean something that happens on a common node, something that happens in a

big pot, something that happens uh yeah, something that you believe is counter to what works also because you

could you could have like a leak, but you might look at it and be like, I mean, maybe it even works to have this leak.

So focusing on things that you don't believe work at all probably the opposite and yeah just again big big

situations common situations >> you uh I know you mentioned a couple times already right you do a lot of coaching as well you mentioned database reviews obviously data you know it

reviews a lot of information and it's very helpful if players want to improve their game you know you can you can basically identify what your leaks But in your opinion,

what does data not tell you about a player? So let's say for example, I sent

player? So let's say for example, I sent you over my my data. Can you still be surprised or are there still things that you cannot cannot find in the data?

>> There there's a lot of things that you cannot see. So you have to like pair it

cannot see. So you have to like pair it with you have to pair the data with like ideas, right? Right? So, for example, if

ideas, right? Right? So, for example, if I'm looking at someone else's database and I look at a league, I usually ask him questions like, "What do you do with this hand in this spot?" Or uh or I just

tell him the league and why do you think you have this league? Like, do you think it's you're afraid? You do you think you are greedy? Do you think like why where

are greedy? Do you think like why where do you think this comes from? I I I just ask questions and and I try to put together and and this is what I do with myself. I try to put together like what

myself. I try to put together like what I'm seeing with what maybe I go in the solver and I look at the hands that are doing certain things like what am I not doing right

and why uh so I guess that's yeah it's it's important to again the why like like you

say the the it's not the what it's the why because you could have if you have an imbalance but every hand you're playing is like reasonable and

you're actually doing something that works is much different than if you have an imbalance because actually individual hands you're playing wrong. Like that's

much worse or that you're doing something that is like counter to what is common sense.

>> Yeah. You might hit a certain frequency but the range with which you hit the frequency is completely wrong for example.

>> Right. Right. And but I I think when you again when you have some experience, you get a like I've done database reviews where I've taken a player's database and

it was like maybe he plays like 200 NL or something like that and the stats look like flawless. It's like wow this is amazing.

I mean I know that it's going to be complete [ __ ] and that they play terrible because that's just it's just it's just it's the case. It has to be the case.

So, usually from talking to them, I will start picking up on what those things are. It's like usually like if someone

are. It's like usually like if someone has flawless stats, they're probably like [snorts] hard pushing for those stats. they they know what stat they

stats. they they know what stat they need to be pushing for and they are making an effort to reach that stat very consciously instead of what I say is

that to you need to reach the right frequency not because you're like making sure that it has to be like perfect every time but more so because you're a

reasonable person you know how to play hands and you're not very biased to one towards one direction, right? Like for

example, if a person is very good at finding stationing spots, but he's terrible at finding overfolding spots, his main

issue is not that he's a station, is that he's actually not finding the like it's not the the problem is not that he's going to mud in the spots that he

finds the good calls. It's that he's missing the other side, right? So it

usually has to do with with bias with being very biased.

Uh and even if you're yeah if you're balanced I mean you're obviously we know that that's just [ __ ] That's not

true. But uh it can be a lot of small

true. But uh it can be a lot of small decisions that are still biased hand by hand.

So yeah uh it's hard. I don't know. It's

uh >> I I agree with what you said like basically reaching the correct frequency should be a result of playing your hands well. You shouldn't play your hands for

well. You shouldn't play your hands for the sake of trying to reach a frequency.

>> Yeah. Exactly. Exactly.

>> Have you ever been surprised? So for

example, if you do a lot of work with data huts and try to exploit people, have you ever been surprised where like how can this guy win so much? He's so

bad. and and what or maybe also the opposite and what kind of is the lesson that you learned in in that?

>> Oh, I mean I've learned a lot of lessons in that in that uh in that regard. Uh I've had I remember

so I've I've always liked I don't like coaching like a million hours per week.

Like I try to keep it small, but I I guess I have a small brother. Like I'm

I'm nine years older than my brother. So

I have this kind of like instinct of like trying to like teach people. So

even when I was playing like 200l myself, I was like maybe teaching 10 player right?

And I right now almost nothing would surprise me because I'm very aware of what kinds of really absurd strategies you can have that are really winning,

right?

But, uh, I remember back then one I remember one guy I was winning like 12 blinds per 100 at 25 and L over 400,000

hands. And I was like, I need to look at

hands. And I was like, I need to look at this. I I need to look at this data. And

this. I I need to look at this data. And

I look at I looked at it and it was absolute garbage. Like it was like the

absolute garbage. Like it was like the worst. It wasn't even good. like it

worst. It wasn't even good. like it

wasn't good in like a in like a like spicy. No, no, it was it wasn't good in

spicy. No, no, it was it wasn't good in any possible way. Like there was no way you could look at that and be like this is good. And but talking to him, he told

is good. And but talking to him, he told me like yeah, I just wait for a table with two fish. [laughter]

It was that simple. He just waited for a table with two fish. And that's when even I had my real like [ __ ] maybe I should say select a little bit better

cuz that was like insane win rate and he was just like very hard table selecting at 25 and L. So of course >> how did that change your view of what is

good at poker or what is the definition of being a good poker player?

I guess I guess it to me comes in two different it's two different I think that poker is a job on one hand and it's a game on the other hand and when you're

wreck battling mostly you're playing a game mostly you're having having fun mostly you're being part of a sport you're being

competitive but that's not your job that's how I would put it it's good to do and I do

not too much probably, but that's not my job. My job is to play tables that are

job. My job is to play tables that are profitable. So, I think that's kind of

profitable. So, I think that's kind of like the I mean, it's pretty obvious, but yeah.

>> How can you or have you tried like applying that same battle mentality towards recreationals? Because I feel like a lot

recreationals? Because I feel like a lot of time we're naturally intrigued to put our time into opponents who make our life tough. But if you look at the

life tough. But if you look at the return of investment of putting five hours into Seru's game so I can squeeze out a little 0.5 BBB win rate here and

there, if I would put that five hours into like a frequently returning recreational, I could have probably increase my win rate 10 BP.

How? But obviously there's less of like direct necessity because I feel like you know I'm already beating the recreational.

>> How is this something that uh that that you struggle with or is how do you view this situation?

[snorts] >> Well, I I think that if I I believe like as many bad things about my game, I think that playing against recreational

is like one of my best uh parts is one of the best parts of my game. So I you know but but it wasn't always right like yeah I had this issue and I think it's

again it comes back to ego like you're playing again 50 now whatever and your ego is I want to I don't want to win the most in this pool I want to be the best

player in this pool and those are two very different things. Uh so if you put the question like that like how do I win the most in this pool you're like oh

maybe I should play really well against fish. Um, so yeah, I think it's is the

fish. Um, so yeah, I think it's is the most 100% the most important thing.

>> Yeah, because I kind of asked that because you kind of phrase it. Okay,

that's kind of my job. And then I kind of interpretated as like, okay, maybe you you find that less enjoyable than wreck battling, but maybe if we can get the same mindset of wreck battling towards that's kind of how I kind of got

to the got got to the question.

>> Oh, okay. Okay.

I mean, I think in I think I do f I mean, just being honest, I do find it less enjoyable. Like, I don't think I

less enjoyable. Like, I don't think I can uh change that. Uh but I still do find it very enjoyable because it's I

would I think what I try to do is like the other way around. Like I try to I almost try to view all players as

nowadays. Like when I was playing 50

nowadays. Like when I was playing 50 mil, I needed this distinction. I needed

to be make sure that I understand when am I I'm playing a fish and when I'm playing a rag and draw a line, a very hard line and change my strategy.

But now since a lot of things I figure out more intuitively, I can tr I find myself treating both fish and rags much more the same.

Not and it's not a disrespect to the regs. It's more like a realization that

regs. It's more like a realization that we're all very stupid. [laughter]

It's more like uh this game is really really difficult. That's more like and

really difficult. That's more like and so when I'm playing against the rag, I'm not giving them like a superhuman ability to balance or a superhuman

ability to do this. I'm just treating them the same as a fish. It's just

obviously the thing they do is not going to be Yeah. It's just about finding It's just

Yeah. It's just about finding It's just about finding reads, right? It's about

finding reads and uh and and figuring out how you need to play against each player. And in that, at least in that

player. And in that, at least in that sense, playing fish should be the same as playing Rex, except that against fish, you should be finding reads like

every other hand that you should be like taking notes and seeing like, oh, this sizing was a blah, oh, this sizing. And

you should be like constantly realizing that oh he likes to check with the set.

Oh, he likes to do and and I that I find very fun to like build like even even if it's I just play the fish one time just trying to build a

a big uh library of all of the things he's doing and and trying to like it's like a puzzle. It's like trying to like put this puzzle together.

Yeah, I think I think I think that's great. That's a great advice. And again,

great. That's a great advice. And again,

like I like it like everyone is stupid, but we're in a we're stupid in a different way. So, your job is to kind

different way. So, your job is to kind of find out in which way this person is stupid. Aka, he's just a human just like

stupid. Aka, he's just a human just like us, you know, like like you said all the way in the beginning.

>> Yeah. I guess I guess I mean it's it's not that we're stupid. It's just that we have such a high le like when we look at

solvers and we talk poker off table, we have such a high threshold for what is good that no one no one reaches that bar

ever. Zero people reach that bar. So it

ever. Zero people reach that bar. So it

it's not that we're stupid. It's just

that the game is much harder to play than people give it credit for. Right?

It's it's people people think the game is very complex but that you can actually play.

>> That's like the gap between what you said like the science of studying poker and the sport element of executing consistently right the performance aspect and understanding and and kind of

I don't want to say it's not appreciating it's kind of respecting the fact that there's a gap I guess that's probably the word. Uh yeah

something to take in consideration.

Adam, you're a you're an expert in uh in closing that gap. Uh what do you feel like are some of the most common differences between like let's say you

have a very good player who's more of a scientist, right? But his results are

scientist, right? But his results are already not coming away. What are like the most common like performance hurdles these type of people run into? is is

part of it also first acknowledging the fact that it's not a science like Sarah just said and that we're actually playing a sport here.

>> Yeah, I think that would probably be the starting point realizing that you're not executing your strategy perfectly and then it's in which ways are you struggling to execute your strategy and generally it kind of falls into two camps. It's either mindset problems

camps. It's either mindset problems which fall in the camp of emotions, self-awareness resilience perspective skills that you're you haven't learned.

Then there's more performance skills like focus, like presence, like energy optimization, stress mastery, which are kind of different skills. And the high stakes guys generally solve the mindset problems quickly and they go into the optimization camp and they're trying to

squeeze edge. Whereas players who get

squeeze edge. Whereas players who get stuck in the scientific mode often have got biases, mindset problems that are continue to hold them back. And the

problem they fall into is they don't realize the tendencies that they think are kind of strategy leaks are coming from mindset leaks over and over. They

don't realize, as we said earlier, that your state is impacting your strategy.

They don't realize that this bias this they're over calling a spot is coming from a mindset leak that they could address and work on. They don't realize that the emotions they're experiencing are causing them to feel like they want to call in a spot that um is causing a

consistent trend. So yeah, I think the

consistent trend. So yeah, I think the the scientist should turn the lens on themsel and they should internally go where are my tendencies? Where are these leaks coming from? And yeah, basically what's the kind of root cause? So once

you see the data, you look at your your sample, okay, interesting. I've got this leak here. Where's what's causing that

leak here. Where's what's causing that tendency? And very often it will go to a

tendency? And very often it will go to a bias. It would go to an emotion. It

bias. It would go to an emotion. It

would go to a a lack of self-awareness.

So yeah, I think the scientist kind of personality. As long as they turn the

personality. As long as they turn the microscope internally to themselves, the part of themsel that is actually the root cause, they will have a lot of benefits because often the work is a lot of reflective work, a lot of asking

questions using your curiosity that you've naturally got. But a lot of those players look externally. They think it's all a strategy game. They look for the solver. They see a leak. Okay, I need to

solver. They see a leak. Okay, I need to study more. It's like no the leak's

study more. It's like no the leak's coming because you've got a internal uh mindset leak that's causing that problem. So the first thing is piecing

problem. So the first thing is piecing that together. Understand that there's

that together. Understand that there's mindset leaks as well as technical leaks and then go on your journey. And as you know Rene said you probably as well it's a long journey. It's a long journey to fix mindset leaks to try to perform

better. And I think the the key kind of

better. And I think the the key kind of lesson is you never arrive. You never

arrive at peak performance. It's always

a state you're trying to get to. So

you're always trying to perform better.

You're trying to figure out where you are currently. What can you do to

are currently. What can you do to optimize your performance? How can you improve your focus? How can you bring more curiosity, fun, attention to what you're doing? How can you have more

you're doing? How can you have more energy in in the moment? So, it's a constant battle to try to perform at a high level. I think that's where high

high level. I think that's where high stakes players get that more because they they realize they're trying to to to perform at a high level where I think other people like the scientist approach can think you at some point arrive there. You have the answers like, okay,

there. You have the answers like, okay, I'm a peak performer now. Now I now I crush. And in reality, it's like, okay,

crush. And in reality, it's like, okay, it's every day. You got to show up in the right way and try to get the best of yourself. So yeah in amongst all of that

yourself. So yeah in amongst all of that there's uh lessons to be learned but yeah I think it's a it's a journey of self-discovery understand where your blockages are generally from a tendency work it one by one don't over complicate

simpify isolate one variable one tendency ends and work through that way take a look at this hand that I played cut off opens I flat the bottom with 75 suited and the small blind comes along

we go to a flop of 654 small blind checks and the cutoff makes a cbat is this standard I'm not really sure nowadays So we can find out what is

actually the correct strategy in multi-way pots due to a big update that GTO wizard has released in which we can solve multi-way. Now the first thing

solve multi-way. Now the first thing that we notice is that the small blind is actually supposed to dunk 58% of the time. If it does go check towards the

time. If it does go check towards the initial razor, he should not be doing any seabbing, which kind of explains why the small blind wants to dunk. If it

does see, it's 1% of the time that is supposed to do it. We can see that 57 is indeed sometimes okay to raise. However,

the sebat frequency is obviously not really representative for what I think we saw in game. So, we can go over to the note lock function and up frequency

and see what that does to our strategy.

Something that's interesting to note is that now the small blind went from dunking 58% to only dunking 33%. If the

swapper does check and the cutoff sebats, we can actually see that 75 suited now mainly prefers to call. This

is probably partly due to the fact that a cutoff puts a lot of money in with quite strong hands, but mainly for the fact that the small blind is now checking way more hands towards him and

therefore we're up against two ranges that are actually pretty strong. So

taking in consideration that I thought in game it was probably close to a range check. It's very easy to be

check. It's very easy to be overseetting. Therefore I decided to

overseetting. Therefore I decided to raise the flop blocking the main hands that villain could be happy with facing a raise. Think a 56 suited pocket fives

a raise. Think a 56 suited pocket fives or 78. If he has an over pair I think

or 78. If he has an over pair I think he's straight away in a tough spot and even if he would call with an over pair I still have a lot of outs. However,

what I did not take in consideration in game is that the small blind, especially if he doesn't lead, maybe because he also thinks the cut off is going to see too much is very much uncapped. If you

combine all multi-way pots in your regular six max game, it actually is a pretty big contributor to your win rate.

And if you play big anti-game or live, the number of multi-way pots that you're going to play is going to go through the roof. So given the frequency with which

roof. So given the frequency with which has occurred, the fact that it's a little bit of a bigger pot than regular single race pots, and the fact that it's a very unexplored field makes studying

multi-way a very big opportunity to gain an edge in today's games. So go check them out. gto wizard.com/mechanics

them out. gto wizard.com/mechanics

to get 10% off of your first subscription. But without further ado,

subscription. But without further ado, let's get back into today's episode. All

right, I'd love to do a little bit of rapid fire with you, Sergio. So the

rules are very simple. You're just going to answer each question as quickly as you can. If if you go off on a tangent,

you can. If if you go off on a tangent, it's fine. But basically, short answers,

it's fine. But basically, short answers, whatever comes to mind is is the name of the game. All right.

the game. All right.

>> All right. First one. What's the most overrated concept in poker?

>> Alance.

>> What's more plus av curiosity or discipline?

>> Curiosity.

>> What's the simplest idea?

>> Close. Yeah. What's the simplest idea that made the biggest difference in your game?

>> That ranges don't exist. [laughter]

>> What's the most underrated skill at high stakes?

>> This is dumb. Well, isn't that is that a skill? That's not even a skill. Just

skill? That's not even a skill. Just

Yeah, >> I'll come back.

>> Good judgment. Good judgment.

>> Good judgment. Great. What's more

dangerous? Entitlement or self-doubt?

>> Entitlement is more dangerous.

Self-doubt is to some degree a bit of it is good.

>> I feel like self-doubt is more you haven't struggled with that as much because of your high belief system whereas entitlement you run into more frequently.

>> I I think I think I have I think I have a I have I think it's almost like I have both sides very strongly. I have like a lot of self-doubt and a lot of like

almost arrogance. So, it's uh it's like

almost arrogance. So, it's uh it's like on on the one hand, I always think that what I'm doing is not good, but on the other hand, I always think I'm going to figure it out. So, I think both sides are good.

>> Yeah, I think those two in tandem is actually a very high stakes trait. You

have a lot of confidence in yourself, but also a bit of paranoia, fear that you're doing it wrong and you need to improve. So, yeah, I think they're in

improve. So, yeah, I think they're in tandem skills. What's more dangerous,

tandem skills. What's more dangerous, ego or fear?

>> It's more dangerous, ego or fear? I

guess I guess fear is more dangerous.

Both are, but I guess fear is worse.

>> Why do you choose fear?

>> Um, I think fear can stop you in so many different ways. At least ego is going to

different ways. At least ego is going to ego is going to lead you into destructive directions, but you're going to learn the lesson at some point, but fear is

going to stop you too much from the from the get-go.

>> Love it. Which mindset advice have you heard, which is total nonsense in your opinion?

>> Uh, I don't know. Oh, I think I think mindset mindset advice tends to be pretty common sense. It's

just that you need to hear it a bunch of times until you do it. So, it's can't think of like a really bad mental advice.

>> One emotion that still gets in the way of the tables. Any emotion you still experience often?

Uh I think I think the I think the emotion that everyone feels at the tables is is usually fear. But I think that is what

usually fear. But I think that is what you're fearing is what changes from person to person. Everyone every for everyone it's fear but I think but some

people fear failure some people fear losing money. Some people fear So for me

losing money. Some people fear So for me it's fear. Uh, I'm not going to say the

it's fear. Uh, I'm not going to say the what, but uh, I think I think it's for everyone probably.

>> What's the biggest lie that poker players tell themselves?

>> That they that they can play the same way they can think in a controlled environment.

>> They think they've got a range, but they don't.

>> What's your favorite non-poker book that has improved your game?

Oh, I'm not much of a reader to be honest.

I'm terrible. I should read more. But um

>> favorite outside of poker maybe from your sports psychologist would have applied to poker in a good way.

>> I guess I guess it's just again emotional awareness. It's something that

emotional awareness. It's something that probably like we are in poker so to us it's like oh yeah emotional awareness is the most important thing in poker.

Probably if you ask to I don't know like whatever field they would say uh similar thing like it's probably just a useful

thing to have all around.

>> Good job. You survived the rapid fire.

Yeah. So three topics came out there which I'd like to go deeper into. We've

got the emotional awareness, we've got fear, we've got wisdom. I think those were themes that have come out throughout this conversation, things I'd like to go a little bit deeper into. So,

you mentioned emotional awareness being a key skill for poker players. Why do

you feel that's true? Why do you feel like poker players need to be aware of their emotions? Because I think you've

their emotions? Because I think you've got two camps. You've got one camp who's aware that emotions get in the way and they need to work on their themselves to uh build a more awareness emotions, but also how to deal with emotions to

experience them and not let them get in the way. You've got other camp which

the way. You've got other camp which think that emotions are just a bit of noise. we can just logic our way through

noise. we can just logic our way through emotions. We don't need to deal with

emotions. We don't need to deal with these messy things. They're not

practical. So for you, why do you feel like emotional awareness is a a box, a Pandora's box that po players need to go into?

>> Yeah, I think that people who think they are not emotional, they are they're just wrong. I just I just think that if you're a person, you

are extremely emotional and most of your decisions, most of the things you do across your entire life come from emotions. And this is not something you

emotions. And this is not something you can stop. So, uh,

can stop. So, uh, ignoring it is just not going to allow you to learn. That's that's the like you're gonna the thing is you're going to make emotional decisions. Are you

going to learn from it or not? That's

really the question. So um by trying to be aware uh you you know you understand yourself maybe helps you understand other people

as well which is also a helpful thing in poker and many other areas. So, um,

yeah, I just Yeah, I I think that poker is about like at the end of the day, poker is about having good judgment. Like you're facing

a it's like being a judge in a in a court of law, right? You're facing like a guy who, you know, is he a criminal, is he guilty, or is he innocent, right?

And you have to make a judgment. And

I'm sure that it must be really hard emotionally to be a judge, right? Because you're facing all these like tough situations where you maybe like hate the person or love

the person or right. And so here's is is is the same like you have to figure out like do I dislike this guy or do I I do I am I might get annoyed at this thing that he's doing or do I like you need to

understand those things because if you don't you're going to make very bad plays basically. Yeah. I mean that's

plays basically. Yeah. I mean that's basically >> yeah it's understanding like emotions are driving decisions. I think that's a a piece that people miss sometimes. We

think we're very logical. There's a

great book predictably irrational which kind of goes into the the concept that we make decisions based on emotion then rationalize them later and then we we missed that part that the we felt like doing something we thought we made a

really logical decision and as players that's massive because all your biases tendencies come from missing that signal that there was a a feeling that you went with and you think it was logical. So

for you in terms of like building emotional awareness let's say you're starting to realize okay I'm I'm experiencing certain emotions at the tables and they're leading me to take certain actions. Let's say you're

certain actions. Let's say you're noticing a bit of frustration. And when

you feel frustrated, you generally be a bit more aggressive. Maybe you're cold down lighter because you don't like folding. How do you start to work with

folding. How do you start to work with that? I think a lot of players might dip

that? I think a lot of players might dip their toes into the waters of emotional awareness and they go, "H, well, I know I feel this and I know I act this way, but it's just very hard for me to navigate that." For you, how have you

navigate that." For you, how have you been able to uh go from emotional awareness to actually practically helping to to work with emotions?

Um, so I I think that for me at least and when I what I what I observe or observe from other players, I don't think it

ever like disappears. I think the game at every level is probably about emotions.

Um, so I don't think it ever disappears, but at to me I don't think I've done something like actively to but I just

try to notice and I think that in general when we notice things they are are some like our subconscious we're

going to start working on those things without realizing. So I guess just

without realizing. So I guess just taking note of being open right about things. I think um

things. I think um yeah like when I'm frustrated about that like there's two different schools of thought like the you can't talk about um

bad beats or down swing. You can't talk about those things. That's just like a no no, right? Because if you do it you're a you're a [ __ ] and you're a complainer, right? I'm more of the

complainer, right? I'm more of the thought that you are a [ __ ] if you're like self uh you're like why me? Why does this this

happen? Like that's that's being a

happen? Like that's that's being a [ __ ] But if you're just complaining and you're like dude this [ __ ] sucks.

Like this this this this is insane. Like

what the [ __ ] is happening? like you're

just venting. Um just being open about how you're feeling about things is uh I think is good in general. But you have

but it's a very narrow line between that and being a little [ __ ] I don't know where the line is, but [laughter] it's a very thin line.

>> Yeah. I think it's how much it paints you as the victim and how much it just says the situation and acknowledges this sucks. If that's done in like a short

sucks. If that's done in like a short time frame and just acknowledges reality, this is abs I don't like this.

I lost this pot. I'm on a down swing.

This is not a nice feeling. I think

that's a that's very almost like courageous and vulnerable to to share that size. But as you said, you very

that size. But as you said, you very quickly get into whining and complaining and you can definitely tell the difference in the tonality when someone's just like whining about a hand of bad beatings. They almost want a bit of pity. They want you to feel sorry for

of pity. They want you to feel sorry for themselves where the other person might just be going look this feel. I'm just

getting rid of this feeling. I'm just

like have an outlet for this feeling.

Then I think the kind of the challenge players face is not turning that into a narrative. All right. One of the

narrative. All right. One of the challenges I feel players fall into is when they're on a downswing, what they do is they look at their graph and they look at the highest point and then they look at the lowest point and they go over the last eight weeks I've been on

this downswing. And then every time you

this downswing. And then every time you speak to them like, "Oh yeah, I've been in a downswing for eight weeks. Oh, but

nine weeks my downswing's lasted." And

they tell tell the story around the high points or the low points. And they're

now enforcing that they're on a downswing. And that makes them feel like

downswing. And that makes them feel like things aren't fair. all of a sudden they feel injust around that. I think there's a very big difference between venting in the short term. Great great release of energy, great way to get some people to

listen to you to go you're not alone on this journey, get some support if it's in a a good group and then they turn that into a narrative of I'm the guy on the downswing, feel sorry for me, then all of a sudden it comes into this things. It's a careful line you've got

things. It's a careful line you've got to got to tread there.

>> Yeah. Interesting. Yeah. Interesting

mention about awareness as well. I think

this is a key point I've observed as well with myself and clients. When you

become aware of stuff, it often fixes the problem itself. I say that not 100% but there's an element of you understand something better that awareness itself opens up other opportunities. And if you look at a lot of biases like if you

study every cognitive bias, you will see a lot of them coming in yourself and you you'll get a point like ah this one really sort of applies to me and the bias doesn't go away. The bias still stays there. But because you're aware of

stays there. But because you're aware of it, it's no longer a blind spot. That

awareness creates new options, new opportunities. So you go, oh, I have a

opportunities. So you go, oh, I have a bias to do this in this spot.

Interesting. I'm aware of that now. Oh,

here I am in this spot. Still feel the same. Still feel like doing the same

same. Still feel like doing the same thing. But now I'm aware that my bias

thing. But now I'm aware that my bias normally takes me that way. Okay,

awesome. You create a little bit of space with that awareness to do something else. Now, the more reflective

something else. Now, the more reflective you are, the more you look at your decisions and kind of critique them, the more opportunities you've got to change them. But yeah, I think to anyone who's

them. But yeah, I think to anyone who's just thinking about where do I start with this? Just build a repertoire of

with this? Just build a repertoire of awareness. Understand yourself, build

awareness. Understand yourself, build self-awareness, emotional awareness, what to do next becomes your your life's work. But just if you don't do nothing,

work. But just if you don't do nothing, just build loads and loads of awareness so you know exactly who you are and you get accurate kind of representation of tendencies. I think that's a a good

tendencies. I think that's a a good starting point.

>> Yeah. Yeah. 100%.

>> All right. Other things I want to touch on is fear. So you mentioned everyone's kind of biggest obstacle is fear. Why do

you feel like fear is such a challenge specifically for poker players and what are some of the ways fear holds you back?

So, I think like when we're making decisions in poker, we're like waiting two sides and we're trying to

to feel out like which one waits more, right?

Uh but the moment you fear something, one of those sides is gonna is gonna have more like a little bit of an extra

weight, right? And all of your decisions

weight, right? And all of your decisions are going to become slightly biased not towards money but away from something else that has nothing to do with it

could be losing money in the short term.

It could be uh looking stupid, right? So

like a loss of status. It could be a loss of uh it could be it could be like almost like

self hate like fear of like looking later at the s like hating yourself for it like the the punishment that you're going to receive from yourself. Uh it

could be I don't know it could be all sorts of things but it's basically like running away from something is going to bias all your decisions. So you need to

try to know what you're afraid of so that you don't run away from that in every little decision.

>> Let's say you've spotted a fear. Let's

say it's a fear of making mistakes. I

think that's quite a common one. This

fear of failure, fear of losing, fear of looking stupid, but fear of mistakes and especially how it makes you feel is a common one. Let's say someone's noticed

common one. Let's say someone's noticed that and they can see they're they're running away from it a bit and maybe they're start to rely on solvers a lot to kind of make them feel better about their decisions. How do you tackle the

their decisions. How do you tackle the fear in your life when you've when you when you've spotted a fear? How do you go, right, I can see myself moving trying to move away from this. How do I

practically move towards it?

>> Yeah, it's it is very hard for me. Like

I find that the the times where I end up stopping running away from my fears is when they become so real that there's

like there's nowhere to run, right? Like

that I wish I could learn a better way, but usually I just keep have to be learning the same lesson, which is like I'm afraid of something. I'm afraid of something. I'm afraid of something. And

something. I'm afraid of something. And

then that thing that I'm afraid the most of happens big time.

And then it's like no I'm not afraid cuz it happened.

>> I'm here, right? Um

so uh like for example a down swing or whatever, right? Like having having if

whatever, right? Like having having if you're afraid of h of going on a down swing right?

For I wish I I had a a good solution, but to me it's like having such a huge downswing that you're like this is life.

This is what it is now. like we're just [laughter] like yeah it's I guess it come like getting over the fear comes

from acceptance of the reality that it's not just a fear it's actually going to happen like that

I think that that uh that helps that it's not just an abstract like it's it's there like it will happen >> yeah and I think it's come to that realization that You need to confront

the fear. I think often fear is like hid

the fear. I think often fear is like hid in the shadows. Fear is like a big bluff. The fear is just like if this

bluff. The fear is just like if this happens, you're ruined. And you're like, "Oh no, if it happens, I'm ruined." And

then you play out the fear or you experience the fear and you realize it's not not a big deal. So often with the fear, what I like to do is I like to magnify them. So like say the worst case

magnify them. So like say the worst case scenario, let's say you're fear scared down swing, go, "Yeah, I go a down swing. I lose it all. Everything. Every

swing. I lose it all. Everything. Every

single thing I've ever earned." And you sit with that feeling. What comes up?

And you realize, "Oh [ __ ] I don't want to I don't want to confront this fear.

This is this is this is horrible stuff."

And you realize very quickly you're scared of the worst case scenario because what a story you've created about that like a narrative that exists with that. So you go into that narrative

with that. So you go into that narrative and you go okay worst case scenario now what and very quickly you realize you'd be okay. They generally wouldn't die

be okay. They generally wouldn't die unless there something like you jump off a cliff or something but most time it's like okay lifestyle changes I'm in a bit of a tough situation. Got to grind harder knuckle down and get to work and

6 months 12 months I can sort this out.

And that's generally what for most of the fears that we let's say you shot at a new level, you get destroyed for a bit, your ego gets bruised, you got to move down stakes a bit. It's always

generally these kind of short-term moves. And once you internalize, okay,

moves. And once you internalize, okay, if the worst case scenario happens that I could possibly imagine, what would I do? And you have like a action plan for

do? And you have like a action plan for that. I do these steps. I get I'd be

that. I do these steps. I get I'd be okay. I'd handle it. All of a sudden,

okay. I'd handle it. All of a sudden, like it's like the bluff. You've called

the bluff. It's like, okay, can't get me now. I've just just saw your bluff and I

now. I've just just saw your bluff and I know you're not going to get this one through. So, I think with fears, it's

through. So, I think with fears, it's challenging because we often run away from them straight away. H. So yeah, I think again awareness is such a big skill here because once you're aware of your fears, you can start to confront them. And I think most people kind of

them. And I think most people kind of wait for experience to teach them. So if

you got a fear and you learn the hard way by living experience, then obviously over time you can internalize that you didn't die and you survived it. But also

you can like literally roleplay and negatively visualize what that would look like. And I think it's a good

look like. And I think it's a good practical way to kind of navigate fears or at least like confront them because I think fears are hard when you don't confront them.

Yeah.

>> All right. Final topic that came up was wisdom. And I think this is it's come up

wisdom. And I think this is it's come up throughout the conversation. So I'm glad we've got a chance to go into it because you mentioned earlier like how experience at the top level is so important. And we could just go okay

important. And we could just go okay well two people start out and they both do a million hands. So they both got lots of wisdom and we know for a fact that that wouldn't be true that they could go in very different paths and regardless of the experience they have

you know the exact same experience exact same things happens. One could be very wise and one could just have a lot of experiences. So, how do we start to

experiences. So, how do we start to cultivate wisdom from experience?

Because there's going to be some players who have maybe played five times the amount of hands as you. They maybe

studied a few thousand hours more than you, yet they don't have the wisdom from that experience. So, how do you start to

that experience. So, how do you start to think about, okay, the the experience I'm having, I need to make sure I'm extracting wisdom from them or they're leading towards wisdom. I know it's a tough topic, but any comes to mind

there.

Yeah, I Yeah, I mean I think there's uh so what I see in players who really like make good use of the time

they spend in poker um in my experience is first of all like doing it very deliberately right like

playing focused like paying attention trying to I think it's good to try to see meaning in things too much better than not seeing enough, right? I think

some players just see things happening around them at the table and they're like, "Ah, maybe this guy RNGed or ah maybe it's better to lean on the side that maybe this means something and

after many many many many hands you start kind of like seeing the pattern better than if you're like agnostic about everything." Just like I think I think it's good to like have

hypothesis. Try to like have your own

hypothesis. Try to like have your own hypothesis and try to like be very deliberate when you play. See if they play out the way you think you they

should play out or not. Uh talking

poker. I think this is honestly the biggest the big one. Talking poker a lot with good players. If they can be a better player than you, then even better. If not someone who has a

better. If not someone who has a different perspective, right? having a

lot of conversations.

Uh, and yeah, playing against worse players than you, playing against better players than you.

Like a lot of things I've learned come from the frustration of a better player. Like something I've played against player who I know that are better, but I'm still I still want

to play them and they keep doing something. I just they just keep owning

something. I just they just keep owning me like time. I don't know if they're doing it on purpose. I don't know if they're just like randomly taking that line. I don't know. But it feels like

line. I don't know. But it feels like every other hand like they're just doing the thing over and over. And I think running into those walls also like

giving it a lot of thought. Um

I think also yeah like you said something about like yeah someone could spend like work twice as much for twice as many years and maybe get less results

than than someone else. And I think a lot of it for me and maybe this is not necessarily a good thing is like I'm always thinking about poker almost not

always but like I think about it so much. So maybe I'm not actively playing.

much. So maybe I'm not actively playing.

I'm not studying, but there's like a certain idea that is bugging me. Like

it's like I this I don't understand this or this player is doing something and I don't know what what's happening here and that really like bugs me a lot and it almost like consumes me like I can be

doing something I just can't get it out of my head. So, uh, I think being, I guess being passionate about it, being deliberate, being focused, trying to

bring the joy and the love for the game out. If you do it without joy and love,

out. If you do it without joy and love, it's probably not going to yield the same results.

>> Such a great answer. Yeah, that that's literally covered every angle in terms of how you can do the same things the same amount of time, but get very different results. and just all the kind

different results. and just all the kind of avenues you touched on from being deliberate, curious, always always asking questions, trying to find meaning. A great quote you wrote which I

meaning. A great quote you wrote which I wrote down uh too much meaning is better than too little meaning. That's the one I'm going to reflect on after this conversation. I think it's a very good

conversation. I think it's a very good point because too much meaning means you got the brain engaged. You're trying to solve the problem. You're trying to ask questions that don't have maybe a simple conclusion. Um so I think there's so

conclusion. Um so I think there's so much in that that's cultivates wisdom. I

think as you mentioned like wisdom is like realizing that the patterns these simple patterns to go back to the very first part of the conversation the simple patterns are there but we need to learn them and the wisdom comes from

piecing together all these data points over a long period of time or obsessing over it 24/7 to ah that was the simple nugget that I now have okay awesome and you almost got to work very hard to get

those that wisdom which is the the simple version of the all the cored data points yeah really good I'm really glad you you answered that way because it answered a lot of my questions I had all All right, just a few um reflection questions for me and then I'll pass over

to Rene to to close us out. What would

you say is the most important lesson Poke has taught you?

>> Um I think be maybe it comes with age in of itself, but I think before I played poker, I was a very like I was I was

very much like this. Pretend that I'm not taking making decisions emotionally.

Pretend that I'm a very logical person.

pretend that I'm very rational. And I've

learned that when you pretend that you actually make the most emotional decisions when you're pretending that you're very rational. And that getting

over that allows you to make kind of a little bit better of a decision even if not fully rational still. I think that's

kind of like I've become a much more uh I I mean I've heard people like going like the other way, but I think for me poker since since I play poker and again

maybe it just comes with age. I think I just like like remember people's birthdays more. I just I just feel like

birthdays more. I just I just feel like a more emotional person in general. I

don't know. I don't know how if it's tied Maybe it's not tied together at all. Maybe it's just age. But but yeah.

all. Maybe it's just age. But but yeah.

Yeah, it's interesting like you said like is it just you and some people go the opposite way. I was thinking does that like relate to uh those two archetypes you set out in terms of high stakes players where you said someone

are like really structured, rigid and some are like more chaotic and they like like the chaos. And I think the ones who like the chaos need to learn to navigate emotions better because they have less structure. They're more driven by

structure. They're more driven by intuition feel. They're living in the

intuition feel. They're living in the kind of um the fire so to speak of vulnerability in terms of what could come out. Whereas the more structured,

come out. Whereas the more structured, the ones who rely more on a framework.

This is exactly how we're doing it, maybe they learn less emotional lessons, maybe they can rely more on a framework that plays a certain spot in a certain way and they can kind of grind that that out. So yeah, I wonder if there's a

out. So yeah, I wonder if there's a correlation between emotional growth and how intuitive your style is and how much you gravitate towards the chaos because if obviously if that is your style, I think emotions become like the dominant

factor in a lot of decisions. So yeah,

maybe it's a a magnifier of of that growth as well.

All right. What was your definition of success and has that changed over your career?

>> Um, my definition of success, I don't know if I ever think of things in that way.

Um, I don't know. I I don't I think I never feel successful or unsuccessful. I think when

I had no money, I felt like I had no money, but I I didn't like I could I was still like, you know, I could uh I had

like the same level of confidence and the same like it was very similar.

So, I don't know if it's uh I don't know what is the definition of success.

I don't know. Honestly, I don't know.

I couldn't tell you why I dri I'm driven to do like I don't know why I chose poker as a

career exactly. I don't know why uh I'm

career exactly. I don't know why uh I'm so competitive. I I don't know. I'm not

so competitive. I I don't know. I'm not

really looking for success. I don't know what it is.

So I'm not sure.

>> No. Very interesting. I'm haven't heard that response, but it's actually very it's an authentic response because it's almost like success often is a label. We

give something and very often we chase something that we think will validate us or give us a kind of gold at the end of the rainbow whether it's reaching a certain stake certain amount of success whatever and we get there and we're like

ah actually that wasn't success that wasn't what I really wanted. And often

like success is just the ability to do what you want with your time. It feels

like for you a lot of your drives are from growth, improving, getting better.

I've read recently that the kind of three drives we have. One's kind of the pleasure drive. We do things for the

pleasure drive. We do things for the short term, how it feels. We've got kind of aggressive drives which are more like competition. We do things to uh yeah

competition. We do things to uh yeah kind of drive things forward which is again again more like the competition drive. And then we've got the gen

drive. And then we've got the gen generative drive and the generative drive is more about creativity. It's

more about what makes us improve, grow, get better and it's all just about expressing ourselves in in a certain way. And that's when you think about

way. And that's when you think about that drive like there's not really a success outcome. You don't really arrive

success outcome. You don't really arrive there. Whereas the kind of pleasure

there. Whereas the kind of pleasure seeeking and the aggressive drive they kind of push towards this is what success means. So yeah very good that

success means. So yeah very good that you uh avoid that question in the way you did because it it kind of represents like how you think about your career your life in terms of less about getting somewhere and more about the journey. So

in amongst that as well you've mentioned a few times that you think about the long term like you think five years in the future. I don't think that's a

the future. I don't think that's a normal perspective and I think I say normal in terms of not coming. So for

you like is this have you always projected your goals quite far into the future? Um, and yeah, how do you how do

future? Um, and yeah, how do you how do you kind of link what you're doing now to future goals? Because I think a lot of people set shorter goals. I'd say

most people's perspectives will be in the kind of six to 12 months range rather than 5 years and they're kind of working towards getting somewhere whereas you feel they've got more of a you're going to be the best in the world in 5 years and it's much more open and

much more what I'll get there. Have you

always been someone who set like a longer perspective and how does that link to how you function dayto-day?

Uh, >> no. I I I haven't always been like that.

>> no. I I I haven't always been like that.

I I don't I think I'm only like that for poker. I think it's just I I've realized

poker. I think it's just I I've realized very early that in poker that's the only time frame that makes sense. And I'm a very impatient person.

So with poker, I've always tried to make like a conscious effort to think about things long term. Like when I find myself thinking about things short term, I make a I I give myself a pointer. It's

like, hey, let's think what's what's my fiveyear uh plan? what's my where am I going to be in five years, right? So,

it's more of like a patch that I have put on I'm naturally I'm a very very impatient person. Um but in poker that's

impatient person. Um but in poker that's completely useless. So, yeah.

useless. So, yeah.

>> So, with that long-term vision, how does that how do you still stay driven in the moments? Because I find for myself,

moments? Because I find for myself, let's say I set a goal too far in the future, it feels too removed. it feels

like ah I can cruise for the next three six months I got five years and we're very good at kind of um linking effort to outcome over over time. So if the goal is very far in the future it's can

sometimes be challenging to show up in the best way but it feels like for you especially with poker that that's not true. So how do you keep yourself

true. So how do you keep yourself engaged in what you're trying to achieve over five years on a short-term basis?

Uh so I have many smaller goals as well, right? Like I try to have goals but

right? Like I try to have goals but they're not results based.

So I think that's like for shorter term I don't think like by this time I want to move up a stake or by this time I want my bankroll to be this or by this time I don't have those kinds of goals.

I just have like in five years best in the world. Uh, and then shorter is like,

the world. Uh, and then shorter is like, okay, in the next couple months or in the next month, actually, I have very, very, very, very short-term goals. Like,

maybe I find a leak in my game or I find something I don't like how I do and I need to fix it now. Like, it needs to be like when I find something I'm not doing

perfectly up to my standard, it needs to be done now. Um, so that's where my impatience translates the most. It's

just I have to it's it's almost like I'm I'm it's almost like it's about building the strategy itself and and I'm very impatient about like optimizing

everything about it and and all those things.

>> Yeah. Perfect. It's almost like patience on the macro and then impatience on the micro in terms of zooming in day-to-day.

you've got very clear goals, clear objectives, things you're working on, which is the kind of pieces that you're building towards that kind of long-term goal. So, you've got that short-term

goal. So, you've got that short-term hurry, but like a a longer term patience. Yeah, I think it's a perfect a

patience. Yeah, I think it's a perfect a perfect perfect blend there. Rene, for

you, how how long of a time frame do you set your goals? I know you've got a child now, so you've got more of a short-term lens that's um needs your attention. How do you think about your

attention. How do you think about your own port career and how far ahead do you think?

Difficult question.

I don't really put a time frame on things mainly. I don't know. I've never

things mainly. I don't know. I've never

really been like, "Oh, I need to reach this in this year." But but I can relate. For example, if I think about uh

relate. For example, if I think about uh when I was most engaged in poker, I did have like a long-term goal and I broke that long-term goal down in steps. But

there was never I never put time pressure behind it. It's like, okay, I'm now going to try to do the things and they come when they come. I don't know.

I never I never I've never been one to put Yeah. time pressure behind goals. I

put Yeah. time pressure behind goals. I

don't know. For me, for me, I I don't think the necessity has really been there. And I feel like it adds more

there. And I feel like it adds more stress and pressure to it that I don't really like that much. And I don't really feel like it has hindered me so

far in my career. So, yeah, that's kind of my my thoughts on it. Um, Sergio, I I was I was wondering what is what is something in poker that you remain to

have the most trouble with? What is like the hardest thing in your opinion about being a professional poker player?

For me, it's the balance. I think it's related to to just this last topic. I

think it's the balance between enough drive to because it's a competitive environment, right? You you

have to stay sharp. You have to stay on top and it's like balancing that with also how do you like right like life balance

like all those things. I think that's really at least for me is is very tough.

I I just can't I haven't figured it out yet.

So, how don't you like not not letting the competitiveness rule your life in a way?

>> Yeah. Like I don't know.

I mean I it's almost like I can't even stop myself. Like when I'm when I want

stop myself. Like when I'm when I want to compete and want when I want to get my you know work in, when I want to study, when I want to play,

um it really takes up a huge portion of my life, right? like I don't have time for I mean I do have time for all the [ __ ] It's just that at that time if I'm

really like focused in poker I just can't pay attention to a lot of other things.

>> I mean I can definitely recognize myself in this as well. Do you feel like this is just almost like the standard if you want to reach high stakes poker? Is it just a

necessity? like the people that don't

necessity? like the people that don't have this, they don't reach it because I do feel like it's a trend. I

watched the I think it needed for a period of time but probably I think now I'm getting to the point where I realize it also brings

a lot of issues that approach because for example uh like results in poker especially at

high stakes when volume is lower than at midstakes right you could go and also like mixing stakes right you lose big on the big stake and win in the small

stake, right? And so

stake, right? And so if at mistakes you could actually be the have this obsession and because you're going to play so many hands at the same

stake, your the periods where poker is not bringing you that like uh like hit of of dopamine are going to be rather short. But at high stakes when there's

short. But at high stakes when there's less volume and more mixing of sticks, you can actually get withdrawal from that like hit for a long time if you

don't have uh and that can actually make your strategy worse. It can make you play worse. The fact that now you have

play worse. The fact that now you have fear, for example, fear that if poker goes wrong, I'm not gonna get that hit for three months, right? like that's

going to make you play worse even when it's going well because because you fear that that withdrawal. So I think I think there's a point where it's actually

beneficial to find balance and and I watched David Jones interview and he said that he's actually does not like that at all. like he he's like, you

know, he has his study time and he has his play time and then he [ __ ] off and goes to whatever and he doesn't remember poker until the next study time. And so

I and I I think there has to be like a shift at some point and I'm probably running into that point, but I don't fully know how to figure it out.

>> On the flip side, what do you think is the the nicest thing about being a poker player?

I think it's freedom.

It's the ability to expand your abilities, expand your horizons, express your

uh I think I think there's something nice about poker is that everyone has an opinion and no one knows which opinion is right. And it's an opportunity to

is right. And it's an opportunity to really like put your put money on your opinion and and broadcast it out there

and and see which one actually uh I don't know there's there's so many things. If you're a competitive person,

things. If you're a competitive person, it's really nice. If you like freedom, it's really nice. I would say those two for sure.

>> I can definitely re relate with that.

Like in poker you can express like your way and also I I definitely relate like the the learning opportunities the things that you find out about yourself

right like oh interesting oh I have this tennis oh so there's there's so much more uh than yeah just playing cards and trying to make money right there's so such it's it offers so much

opportunities um if you could do a one-on-one coaching session with any person in the world who would that be and what would you ask him >> I don't I think

I think it would be David Jones because it's one hour.

I think that maybe my style like in this regard like what I said like maybe you want to like have a different style affect uh influence you. I think if it's

just one hour, I would just have a conversation with him just to see if I'm on the right if I had like the right idea, right? Like am I kind of like did

idea, right? Like am I kind of like did I get it right? Like

are we are we like do I get it right?

[laughter] Like it would be nice to because it's Yeah, it's tough because in poker no one's gonna no one's going to tell you what the [ __ ] happening. So

you kind of have to trust that your idea is the right one.

talking about uh uh poker, the future of poker, how do you see the future of poker and is online poker that

last month or two have been like abysmally bad? But I don't think I don't

abysmally bad? But I don't think I don't think it's going to die. I think that um I mean I don't know maybe that who knows but the

the reality is like people have different fears like one of them is like people are getting too good. Uh no I mean that's that's not really I think I

think poker has this nice feature that when someone gets too good they make so much money that they don't play anymore.

So that's that's so no one ever gets that good. [laughter]

that good. [laughter] Um uh another one is like cheaters. I mean

I don't see it like I I play all kinds of players at high. I don't I don't p I mean there are for I'm sure that there

are but I see a lot of very intentional plays. I see a lot of very human ideas

plays. I see a lot of very human ideas behind why people do what they do. So, I

don't see that happening because I think I think the main reason is because high stakes players know for the most part that it's kind of [ __ ] Like playing like a solver is

kind of [ __ ] So, why would you even like it wouldn't even work. Um,

so, uh, I don't think that's going to end poker. The only way poker could end

end poker. The only way poker could end is if fish stop liking it. So, could

that could happen? Yeah, it could happen for sure. But, you know, if that

for sure. But, you know, if that happens, then I guess I'm [ __ ] [laughter] I don't know.

Uh, what are you currently uh most curious or excited for when it comes down to poker strategy? Let's say I uh send you a message and we want to do a strategy session. What topic would I

strategy session. What topic would I need to propose in order to spark your interest? Oh, but I think that I think

interest? Oh, but I think that I think it comes down to the play style thing, the two archetypes of players. I think

I'm very drawn to fundamentals, fundamental topics, topics that have to do with how things work at a very like basic level.

Uh, so I think those topics generally excite me more like maybe like a toy game of how the river changes when you add like a little hand here or how you remove one hand or how you change the

run out or like those like very fundamentals.

So for example, let's study like button versus big blind through a pot check.

That's like okay like I'm I'm out. I my

my attention is already like in [ __ ] other continent. So

other continent. So uh yeah, for me it's it's more about like fundamentals and and and like basic topics, the ones that I like most

>> and uh preferably with someone who thinks very differently.

>> Uh yeah, although I guess in this this is more like like the fundamentals are more like true or false like they're more like the way they work. I guess I

guess uh different opinions are more for like the softer the more like judgment based part of the game.

[snorts] >> What would you like the main takeaway for our audience to be of the conversation we had today?

>> I don't know. I guess

I guess I will say one thing. I think

I'm not yet at the highest elite level possible, but I'm pretty sure I can say that

really strong poker players are not these genius robot machines that are like made of a different kind of material. They're like some kind of like

material. They're like some kind of like alien. I think if you're a a viewer and

alien. I think if you're a a viewer and you're like playing lower stakes and you're like you don't trust yourself because maybe you're not enough. It's

like I mean the reality is that until you push yourself, you're not going to know.

Like who knows? Maybe maybe you're not.

Who who knows? But if you don't try, you're not going to know. And and

there's a lot of I think confidence has helped me for sure because there's a lot of points where you're going to run into such a

big struggle that if you don't think you can do it, you're not going to be able to um

get past it. So I think you need that belief. So yeah, it's is you are enough,

belief. So yeah, it's is you are enough, my friend. [laughter] That's the

my friend. [laughter] That's the takeaway.

What a great conversation that was.

Thank you very much, Sergio, for coming on and sharing your wisdom. Adam, main

takeaways for you from the conversation we had today.

>> Yeah, it was a great conversation. We

went deep on many topics, some of my favorite topics as well, which are which I enjoyed going into. The first one was awareness. And I think we started the

awareness. And I think we started the conversation with saying awareness is the number one skill in poker. And then

we kind of covered it from so many different angles how important it is to build awareness in terms of understand your biases, understand your tendencies, understand your leaks. We went into emotional awareness as well and he

touched on how all our decisions are made through emotion whether we like it or not and being aware of that to uh uncover the patterns in your players, your tendencies is so important as you evolve as a poker player. And yeah, I

feel like if anything any poker player takes away from this conversation, awareness has got to be front of mind because that's going to be the gateway to everything else that we talked about later. The other one topic that led from

later. The other one topic that led from that was fear and the ego. He mentioned

that the ego for him personally comes into play when he's on up swings and generally the ego gets humbled when he kind of realizes he's not as small as he thinks he is and he goes back to the basics of trust himself and playing for

enjoyment. And then he mentioned

enjoyment. And then he mentioned alongside that fear being a big obstacle that holds him back but also holds many players back. And he mentioned kind of

players back. And he mentioned kind of early on like kind of scared of being exposed. And lots of conversations were

exposed. And lots of conversations were merging back around which I really enjoyed in terms of we started fear in terms of talking about solvers and talking about how we gravitate towards using solvers because we fear being

scared. Then we talked later how fear

scared. Then we talked later how fear holds players back from not making mistakes looking stupid not mistakes. So

like loads of these concepts were coming together in terms of things that obstacles that hold you back. And when I asked him ego or fear, which one's the most dangerous, he said fear? He said

that's the root of everything. And I

think it was really good that he said fears come in different shapes and sizes for all of us, but being aware of your own fears and how to push back on them.

It's really important. We did a bit of a a dive on how to overcome fear as well, which was good. Next one was perspective. Was throughout this

perspective. Was throughout this conversation, I was loving his long-term vision. want to be the best player in

vision. want to be the best player in the world in five years and just the confidence that that's going to be a reality like built in so deep that it's like yes it's logical fact of course I am and then with that like how in the

short term he links that with trying to get better so if you want to be the best player in the world in 5 years time your daily actions best line up with that you best be improving you best be instilling ways of learning that are good that are

helping you move forward and and improve which I think um he talked about like skills he's working on parts of his strategy and really trying to uh yes just fine tune his him and then when I pinpointed him or I tried to ask him

what success was as definition he didn't have one and I think that was really good cuz he kind of almost like success isn't a thing like he's not he's not trying to arrive somewhere he's not trying to get some some achievements he's just trying to be the best in the

world that can be classed as success to some people but Tim it's like no I'm just trying to logically go for this pursuit of getting better every day so I think it's it shows he's very much in tune with just getting better which

links into poker is a sport not a science I very much agree with this and we talked about all the performance avenues and how we're just humans and we we touched on humans from different

angles. Are we stupid? Are we incapable

angles. Are we stupid? Are we incapable of executing complex strategies, but what we realize that we're just trying to execute a performance and there's lots of restraints and variables that make it challenging. So, as a result, we

can't necessarily perform our best and we've got to treat pocket like an athlete and understand the variables that lead to high performance. At some

point, he said, what did he say about focus? Focus is the most precious

focus? Focus is the most precious resource. He he said that in terms of

resource. He he said that in terms of what we're focused on and he mentioned skills like energy man man man man man man man man man man man man man man man man man man man man management he mentions um understanding presence which was a skill of basically making sure

that you're trusting yourself and you're going with your reads again we mentions the ability to get out your own way and just have fun enjoy poker not letting the ego I think his his definition was

not playing trying to look smart not trying to play to be good just playing for for its own sake which I thought was really refreshing and trying to to get that state more frequently and then finally the last thing wrote was

knowledge to wisdom and this was a really I think this is like a master class on how to learn if you watch that back I think the way he touched on the variables they take all the boxes in how to learn effectively in terms of

deliberate practice in terms of being present being curious asking meaningful questions going deeper looking for leaks asking for wise and really like understanding how to get better at something I think it's a really key one

I think a lot of people are thirsty for knowledge I think this came up with Justin Lieber how we were kind of overloaded with knowledge but kind of lacking And wisdom was kind of the takeaway there in terms of we we lack

wisdom and wisdom is very precious but very hard to get to but wisdom is almost like the simplicity of oh I just do that when you know you know it's it's very easy. So I think there's a lot of topics

easy. So I think there's a lot of topics that came from a mindset perspective linked into a strategy side came back into a mindset side. So it was really interesting to uh to hear all those things linked together. How about

yourself? What was the the main topics for you?

>> Yeah I agree. I definitely loved how the how the how all elements of poker kept on overlapping in the conversation.

Obviously something to point out how we started the the the the conversation that poker is simple and that basically he came to that conclusion after he dropped the [ __ ] right we're not a

solver this thing takes a million things in consideration I tried to copy this but that's not going to work and then when he kind of stripped it down and brought it back to like the main principles he said ah if you cut out the

noise and actually poker is quite simple right and then how do you do that he said well by asking yourself the right question and the right question should be around isolating the most important factors in the hand. So what moves the

needle the most in terms of EV and this is something you know you can play around with in in solvers. You can

nodlock a little bit and you can see okay well if I change this if I change that what has the biggest uh change in EV for example we talked a lot about um

uh how state drives your decisions as well and that we have to leave room for intuition and not get in our own way. So

often we might do and that's what he also said right that doesn't necessarily mean that he simplifies strategies right he's not talking about simplified strategies because that's something that you have to do if you try to memorize a

solver but sometimes he might do something very complex but it become it comes from intuition it comes from asking yourself the right question I think he said pio would explode if you

give him 30 sizings but a human if you just uh ask the right question could actually implement that so it's all about asking yourself the right questions and and in your decision-m

process, keeping it simple but leaving room for intuition in that moment, right? Smaller nuances, etc., etc. Um,

right? Smaller nuances, etc., etc. Um, he also he said he said the great quote ranges don't exist uh or at least uh you know their ranges are not going to be

exactly the way you think it's going to be or actually that the person he might even I think he said he might say that he's range betting but he might not be range betting. He now says that he range

range betting. He now says that he range betting because he has a combo that wants to range bet or he said let's say you play live the way he throws in his chips might identify that okay even

despite his range betting this range bet might be or this part of the range bet might be stronger or weaker depending on how he throws his chips in or maybe how fast he acts etc etc. So ranges don't

exist. And basically what that kind of

exist. And basically what that kind of opened up for is that it opens it it it tells you that people give away information, right? That's I think a lot

information, right? That's I think a lot what it came down to as well that people make mistakes. People give away uh um uh

make mistakes. People give away uh um uh information and you can exploit that and you will only look for that if you have a bigger goal. And that's really something that I really liked the intention of goal. He wanted to become

the biggest winner at 50NL and he was like well how do I do that? And then for example, he later said also that he was very good at exploiting fish. That's

something probably that he learned as well because he was like, well, if I want to make make the most amount of money possible, then probably getting the most out of the fish is very important, right? But also just opening

important, right? But also just opening up, okay, how do I win the maximum with his hand? Oh, wait. Maybe I should look

his hand? Oh, wait. Maybe I should look at what my opponent does. Oh, my

opponent is turning his h face up. Well,

now I have a decision with my hand versus his hand, right? Oh, now the decision became easier. So tying that kind of uh uh because people often don't look for all these things because they don't have a bigger goal. There's no

necessity for them to try to show up in a better way, right? So tying these things together, I thought was uh uh I thought was really nice as well. In

general, a lot of uh a lot of great wisdom in this conversation. So I want to thank Sergio again for coming on. I

want to thank Adam for co-hosting this podcast with me. I want to give a shout out to our sponsors, GTO Wizard Coin Poker. Remember, if you want to make

Poker. Remember, if you want to make more progress in your poker career, go check out mechanicsofpoker.com. Work

with Adam and me. I want to thank you guys for staying all the way until the end. Uh, leave a like if you like this

end. Uh, leave a like if you like this podcast. Subscribe to the channel and

podcast. Subscribe to the channel and I'll see you guys in the next