President Barack Obama in Conversation with Marc Maron | WTF Podcast

How you doing?

Good, buddy. How you doing?

We've aged.

I know. I'm a little hunched over, but

you look like you're walking. Okay. How

you doing, Mr. President? It's good to

see you.

Nice to see you.

How you been?

Well, you know, I'm nice to meet you.

How come he's in a suit, man?

Everything else is in the wash.

Yeah, I know. Suit guy.

Like I had a when when you were first

on, I was like, "What am I going to

wear?" And I'm like, "Well, I just wear

the plaid shirt, I guess." Well,

you're casual.

Yeah, I am. Cuz cuz I knew you would be

here. I think this way. the uh

got the few basketballs.

Well, uh yeah, I'm signing them because

I we stuff gets stacked up that I'm

supposed to sign.

Believe me, you remember my old garage,

right?

Yeah, it's it's

it's it's it's similar.

It's Yeah, a little neater.

Yeah,

but not much.

Okay.

Rolling on both.

We're rolling on both.

Good.

Yeah. Everything's good.

I can I say before we start or Sure. you

know, whenever you want to start.

To me,

I can't imagine anything tougher or more

terrifying than doing standup comedy.

So, once you do that,

Yeah.

I mean, everything else is

is easy.

I won't say easy. I'm saying

not as frightening.

Yeah. The the the

to me standing alone on a stage and

hoping a bunch of people laugh at your

stuff.

Yeah. It's uh Yeah, it you get used to

it. Yeah.

But not unlike I'm sure uh your gig.

Yeah.

Uh you know, sometimes it's not going to

go exactly right.

It's not always going to you're not

always going to uh hit it out of the

park,

right?

But I guess what I'm saying is at a

certain point for you, there's got to be

just you had a lot of reps.

Yeah,

reps are helpful, man.

Reps in talking to people and reps in

comedy. But it's weird with both for me

because uh I I seem to get just as

anxious and and and

it never goes away.

It's not for me because

I I I don't know if it's part of my

preparation, but with standup, it's a

little less where like I know that a

part of me lives up there.

Yeah.

That that that I exist on that stage.

Uh and so I don't freak myself out as

much. But with conversations, I I don't

generally know what's going to happen.

And the anxiety is different. But uh but

yeah, I I still keep it fresh by being

terrified.

Well, look, there's uh Bill Russell.

Yep. Bill Russell,

greatest uh greatest champion of North

American sports. Y

kept throwing up even after. Yeah. Right

before games.

It's true, right?

Yeah. Yeah.

I mean, you got to have a little bit of

a few butterflies otherwise. Did you you

don't get it?

You know, not not just having a

conversation,

right?

Um

you know, if if there's a big speech

that I've got to give. Yeah.

Um then there's still a little bit of

a little bit of fear.

A little bit of adrenaline.

Yeah.

Yeah. A little bit of like, all right,

let me make sure that

Yeah.

You know, I got

Yeah. You're ready to go. You're

focused.

I'm focused.

Lit up.

I'm I'm pumped up.

Are are we are we just going to dive in

here or how you

We're already doing it.

We're already doing it.

I do want to ask you I got a weird

question I want to ask you and I I

decided to start with this as opposed to

end with it. And it's it's kind of

business,

but it's important for me. It's

important for the show. I'm going to I'm

going to ask you to for your signature

on something.

Absolutely. What do we got? Is it a

commutation? I can't do that anymore.

No, no. This is uh I I created this

pseudo legal document to to honor this

is our last episode and this is uh this

is something I wrote and I it's uh it's

honest but I I I wanted to witness and

and you're here.

So to all concerned this is dated 101325

the date of the last show. I Mark Maron

hereby formerly release Brendan McDonald

from the professional responsibility of

listening to me talk from now and in

perpetuity. Brendan has listened to me

talk no less than 10,000 hours over the

last 22 years, often several hours in

one sitting. That's a lot, even more

than I've listened to myself talk.

Brendan is free to talk to me socially,

but that is entirely up to him. If if he

chooses if he chooses to do so, I will

be delighted and promise not to abuse

the privilege. It has been a

life-changing ride on my yammering, and

I am forever grateful to Brendan for

keeping me at my best. I I am I am more

than happy I'm gonna sign it to you sign

it. I will witness it

and uh this is kind of a commutation. I

mean essentially

Brendan is released.

Yes. It's a it's a from me from you. You

know I have a sense that uh

he kind of liked hanging out with you.

Yeah. It was a it's been a hell of a

partnership.

I mean it may be a little Stockholm

syndrome.

No. No. He He won't let that happen.

Yeah. I'm completely aware that I have

not had that impact on his brain cuz if

I did, we'd both be in trouble. He's

like the better half of he's protected

me. You know, I'll say [ __ ]

and and and it'll go on. Uh I'll record

stuff and in the back of my head I'll

think like Brendan's not going to he's

not going to leave that in.

No, not really.

Yeah. It's

Well, you got to you got to have he's

like your super ego.

That's exactly right. and he's a a

functioning part of my memory. Yes.

Like I don't remember like obviously I

remember our conversation but there's

been 1,600 and more almost 1,700

conversations.

That's a lot. So how are you? So so tell

me how you're feeling. I look congrat

first of all congratulations.

Yeah.

Second of all I'm honored to be on your

last show. How are you feeling about

this whole thing uh transition uh moving

on from this thing that has been

well uh one of the defining uh parts of

your career in

16 years a long time.

I mean well I mean I I maybe you you

could help me. I I feel okay. I feel

like I'm I'm sort of ready

for the break but uh but there is sort

of a a fear there of uh you know what do

we what do I do now? I mean I'm busy

but not unlike your job. I'm gonna

compare my job to the presidency now. Is

that

I think it's pretty similar.

Thank you.

I've got a lot of people

who over the last 16 years have grown to

rely on me.

Yes.

And

you've got a lot of fans just around.

Yeah. And

in unlikely places.

Oh yeah.

Yeah.

As in here.

Yeah.

Yeah. The uh but like you know they they

need something right. that that there is

a a feeling of like how am I going to

feel, you know, less alone? How am I

going to deal with my mental this or

that? And and how am I going to find,

you know, a way to exist in the world

that we're living in? I mean, I'm not

offering them solutions, but I am

commiserating

and it's comforting.

They trust you.

Yeah. and and and they feel as if what

you're going through

and what they're going through occupies

a similar space, right? And so they

don't feel like they're traveling this

journey that can be frightening alone

sometimes.

That's right.

And and yeah, there's a power in the

human voice, you know, that you

you grow attached to.

Yeah.

Yeah. So when you left, what did you do

for your mental health with the weight

of

Well, look, how old are you now?

I'm 62,

right? So, you know, u you you've still

got a couple of chapters left. And my my

theory was

u somebody gave me advice right before I

I I was leaving office. Uh, and it was

don't rush into what the next thing is.

Take a beat.

Uh-huh.

And

take some satisfaction looking backwards

and saying, "Huh, you know what? Didn't

get everything done that I wanted.

Wasn't always exactly how I planned it,

but there's a body of work there that

I'm proud of."

Right?

You know, pat yourself on the back for a

second.

Just be a little brain dead for a while.

Uh, you know, I I've

uh read a bunch of books that had been

stacked up by I had a big uh

deficit with my wife that I had to had

to kind of work my way out of, right? Uh

so we went on a lot of trips and

hung out and and and you know just had

nice dinners and and slept in. Um and

then I think you know what what this is

an opportunity for for you it was an

opportunity for me was figuring out all

right um what's my next highest and best

use what's my what what's what's a new

purpose

that

u scratches that itch and it it may not

come to you right away. The podcast was

kind of a random thing, right? You said,

"Well, let's try this out." And and you

didn't know it was going to go for 16

years. I I assume when you did the first

show.

No, we didn't know anything.

You didn't know anything. You were

trying to figure it out and and and so

but but you probably have an inkling of,

you know, what you just described about

people trusting you. you connecting

partly because you're willing to be

vulnerable in front of people and and

and kind of let them know

uh you know what's going on inside your

gut. Um there's a power to that.

What what's another way of channeling

it, right? That that may be different

than you playing a character in a movie

or right,

you know, you or even you doing standup.

there's there's something more raw,

honest, exposed about what you do when

you're just having a conversation and

connecting with people. And so the

question is, well, is there another way

for me to

catch that?

Yeah.

You know, but you don't have to rush

into it. I guess my main thing would be,

you know, take your time,

right?

Unless unless you really got some bills

to pay.

No, no, I'm okay. But like it feels like

the like I remember when uh you left and

the you know there is this sort of a

vacuum and and in terms of like my

obviously my responsibility to to my

audience is is different

but how do you sort of

you know did did you feel the weight of

that responsibility? Yeah. I I mean what

what was unusual for me was obviously

a lot of u what I represented Yeah. a

lot of what Michelle and I had tried to

project the values

our thinking about America.

Um

you know

my successor seemed to represent the

opposite

right

not seemed did. Yeah.

And so I think there is a lot of anger,

a lot lot of

sadness. Yeah. Uh some fear uh among a

big chunk of the country. And I and you

know one of the problems with um the

American political system is although we

have political parties, we don't have a

parliamentary system. So, so basically

the president, in my case, uh, Democrat,

I leave office and there's no obvious

person who's now the shadow prime

minister, the leader of the party for

the Democrats, right? And so there there

were a lot of terrific people who were

doing good work, but

you know, we have this weird situation

where you don't have a a designated

person who's

right,

speaking on behalf of the whole party.

So, um, I actually found myself drawn

back in to, uh, uh, day-to-day politics

or commentary more than I had wanted to

be

after the second

after the Yeah. in 2017, 2018. Um, and I

thought I was going to be able to remove

myself more from

being out there in public and was going

to be able to concentrate on what I

really wanted to do, which was

uh coach the next generation of

leadership.

Sure.

Um, you move from player to coach

essentially.

And I I kept on being uh asked to to

comment on news of the day and look at

this outrage and

yeah,

why aren't you out there more and and

and that kind of thing. Um and look,

that's flattering.

Yeah.

And uh you know, it's it's an indication

that you made a connection with people.

Sure. Um,

but I I I tried to be a little bit

disciplined about

recognizing that

I I'd moved on to a new phase where I I

did not have formal power.

I have some hopefully moral persuasion,

some some credibility.

Yeah.

But I didn't have formal power. And and

so more than anything for the long term,

what I could do that would be most

helpful would be to start promoting

up lifting up shining a spotlight on

those, you know, that next generation of

of leadership and talent uh new voices

because part of what also happens is,

you know, um

you know, as you get older, Michelle and

I joke about this,

um

no matter how much you you want to

pretend otherwise

you're starting to get a little out of

touch. You're not completely, you know,

plugged into the zeitgeist

and it happens naturally.

It just happens. Yeah. I mean, look, I I

don't My brain doesn't register Tik Tok.

Yeah. Mine neither.

The same way that it does my

16-year-old niece.

Right.

Right.

You got to get a guy to do it for you.

I It's not just the te the the the the

technology itself. It's that

I'm not plugged in. I'm not relating to

Yeah.

the cultural,

you know, stream in the same way that

somebody who who's 20 or 25 or even 35

is. But that's an interesting point is

that, you know, human connection, you

know, Tik Tok and like when you and I

did the podcast 2015,

the landscape was was not as gluted. You

know, Instagram didn't have the power it

does. Tik Tok, I don't even know if it

was around.

No, not that I remember.

And, you know, there was a a way of of

making a real connection. And it seems

like a lot of these platforms now like

Tik Tok is just an inundation

of stuff that like what a like I know

when I talk to you and I can feel it and

and you can hear it that there's a human

connection,

right?

And it seems like you know that's

necessary.

Yeah. It I listen I've been wrestling

with this for a while. You know um

people talk about me being the first

digital president and and that's true.

Obviously the internet existed before me

and but but you know I when I came into

office in 2009

you know the smartphone was not yet

widely around um and so the smartphone

comes out around 2010

Facebook Twitter a lot of social media

is just taking off um

it seemed optimistic

it did right so so you know there's

there's all this sense of this is human

connection.

My campaign wouldn't work. I I joke

about the fact that

um I was an early adapter of all this

social media, not because by the way I

was so uh smart. It was that

my campaign was broke enough that I had

to rely on a bunch of 20 and 25 year

olds volunteering in our office. Yeah.

And they'd say like, "Hey, uh Senator,

um this is a website." I said, "Ah,

website, great." You know, so sounds

good. Sounds good. And say, "So you can

have pictures and you can have even

video on there and see this little box

like people can can click it and and

they can contribute money, right?"

And I'd be like, "Really?

That's good.

That well that's that seems useful." And

and then they say, "And this one, they

can like volunteer." And I' I'd be like,

"Well, that's great. Yeah, let's do

that."

And and so I probably I mean part of the

reason I was elected was we were

adapting all these new media. But you

know this dates myself when I talk to

audiences I was like my social media our

social media was MySpace.

Yeah.

And Meetup

right

now. Meetup is the one that I always

tell people is the most interesting to

me.

I don't even know what it is. I missed

So, Meetup was, you know, it was it was

a social media

early. Yeah.

Early early uh application.

And you could send basically text over.

So, so let's say there were a bunch of

volunteers up in Idaho.

Oh, yeah. Yeah.

And you know, Idaho is not a big blue

state with a lot of delegates. So, we

don't have the resources to send a whole

staff,

right,

paid staff up to Idaho. But we have, you

know, a few volunteers, uh, some people,

some supporters. They send us a message

saying, "Hey, we're Idahoans for Obama."

Yeah.

And, uh, we'd we we'd love to to build a

we think, you know, you can win this,

uh, state. And so, we go, "All right."

So, we'd send a bunch of information

through Meetup and we'd give them the

app. And basically what the app would do

is you could send out here's Obama's

positions on things, here's, you know,

dates of debates and this and that.

But the main thing it did, hence the

name, was it would help these volunteers

organize themselves to meet up

in person.

In person.

Yeah.

In a church basement, in a bar,

right?

In a VFW hall, whatever.

And what I always tell people was

wonderful about this rudimentary app was

they'd show up when they actually met in

person and maybe they were assuming that

they were all thought the same way and

right

were were had the same positions on

everything and they'd show up at some o

you know Obama volunteer meeting and

you'd have a you know what looked like a

ex army sergeant with a crew cut and

you'd have a a black young black woman

with a nose ring and you'd have

a suburban mom, you know, with some

kids.

And it turned out that by virtue of

meeting in person, you kind of realize

people are a little more complicated.

Sure.

Maybe they don't agree with me on

everything right?

Maybe they're and that's a good thing,

right? So, so it creates this friction

and this interest

and and it it it forced people to kind

of say, "All right, well, you know, it

turns out that I don't have to agree

with everything to to work with

somebody,

right?"

And then out of out of those meetings,

they'd have to go out and start knocking

on doors and that's the ultimate meetup

because now you're you're you're forcing

yourself to talk to strangers who

definitely don't agree with you on

stuff, but there was that sense of

human interaction. Yeah.

In all and and that that that gave

people a sense of how somebody could be

a good guy but also have blind spots.

Somebody could be, you know, uh seem

like a real jerk and yet there's this

redeeming quality. They they they

sense that you get living in a

neighborhood, right? Oh, yeah. which

which is like you go to the soccer game

and all the parents are sitting around

and you know some guy or or gal may may

not be your cup of tea but then you see

him hug their kid and you go oh

and

you know what

he's all right

he's all right

well and that's foundational to

democracy working

correct

and and what happens now is that uh with

you know us and them and with uh all

these social media platforms you know

being uh individual's reality,

right?

So there's no conversation. You just got

people blasting away at your face all

day.

And and and the and the whole reeling

thing, the algorithm.

Yes. Yes. Yes.

It does capture your mind and send you

down a very narrow track in a way that

And it's interesting for me. I I said

like my brain doesn't work that way,

right?

But I'll be honest with you. With me

it's mostly like sports videos.

Yeah. Sure, but I I see how this

mechanism works where you can just get

on a track and that algorithm is

powerful and you will suddenly be

consumed by this thing for half an hour

or and you look up and you've wasted a

whole bunch of time and and but what

it's also done is it has narrowed your

world significantly. And and if if you

get on on a political or social track on

those reels, um it's hard to break.

It'll break your brain.

It'll break your brain.

And it's and it's it's it's so uh

terrifying and disturbing that where you

don't and also the dopamine part of it.

It's that people don't have necessarily

whether they do or not, it it'll

annihilate the their sense of values.

It'll annihilate principles, you know,

in a way because it works them up by

delivering this thing.

Well, it it is well known. I mean, this

has been documented that uh you know,

the the design of phones, the way social

media apps are set up. A lot of that is

science based on uh that that arose out

of,

you know, figuring out how to make

addiction right?

Figuring out how to make slot machines.

Sure. Sure. I mean, there's a reason why

all these pings and lights and

you know, stuff comes up on your phone

when notifications come if you haven't

silenced it on your phone, right? Just

that sense of that. The only game I

really play is uh on my my phone is Word

with Friends with Pete Susan, my my old

photographer from the White House.

Sure. Took our picture.

Yeah. And um and it's just a way for us

to stay in touch.

Yeah. There's a very particular ping

that comes up when he's played.

Yeah.

And

if my if I haven't turned my phone off,

it I I could be in the middle of

negotiations on a you know nuclear

treaty.

Yeah.

And that thing goes off, there's a part

of me that's like, you know what, I got

to I wonder what he played. Right. So,

so all that is shaping

um the political environment in ways

that even when you and I talked in in in

what 2015?

Yeah.

It it that didn't exist. And now the

interesting thing is podcasting

Uhhuh.

Um

is

obviously it's gotten segmented and and

and it's getting chopped up so that

people don't listen to a whole

conversation

on the video. Yeah. on the video and all

that stuff.

There is still, I think, a power in just

people listening to conversations if

they listen to the whole thing.

Sure.

That

I

I think is different.

Yeah. I I you know, you you and Rogan I

guess came up

Yeah. started right around the same

time, right? And it it was interesting

to me when,

you know, people started criticizing,

I don't know, Bernie or somebody else

for going on Rogan,

right?

It's like, well, why wouldn't you?

Yeah, of course. Go go go go go. If if

you have time to go have a conversation

with somebody that

you know then

that is consistent with democracy to to

to me engaging in a honest conversation

that's not just yelling not just trying

to score points but all right I'm going

to take time to listen and then I'm

going to

kind of share how I'm I'm thinking about

things. um still valuable

that that part of it is valuable and and

the fact that we can have access to that

um that that we can we can in some ways

participate in that conversation I I I

think is is actually not the big the the

big problem. The problem that happens

with podcasts is that they get all

chopped up

and then then it it it gets put up on

the on the the video stream and

um

the content economy. Yeah. The one thing

that we did was always keep it audio. So

then we were kind of it's harder to to

clip audio. Correct.

And and full and the people that listen

to my show Yeah.

are in for the whole conversation. And I

and I think what you're talking about

which you know I try to kind of under

understand or or wrap my brain around is

that there's a tribalization happening

uh in terms of even if Bernie you know

goes on Joe you know that you know

Bernie is focused and he knows what he

wants to say

but you you know in when it's taken out

of context or it's or it's you know

solely looked at by a bubble of people

that the the message can become

obscured. Right. And diminished.

Yeah. But but look, there's this young

state rep, uh, James Tico, who was on

there a while back out of Texas.

Oh, that guy's good, right?

He's terrific. Really talented young

man. And and you know, u

it it does require a certain confidence

in your actual convictions to debate and

have a conversation with somebody who

disagrees with you on a whole bunch of

stuff. What makes him so good though?

Because there is something grounded

about him that you had it too.

I I I you know what

so so in our foundation a lot of the

work that that I do is is is working

with young civic leaders, political

leaders, journalists, human rights

lawyers, not just here in the United

States but around the world. And one of

the first things I say to him is

uh

know what you really believe,

right?

Like that's your starting point,

right?

And if you know what you first of all,

if if if you understand your

convictions, you got a moral compass,

you got a code, you you've spent time

wrestling with what it is that you care

about and what you believe.

Yeah. then it's a lot easier now to be

open and actually listen to other people

uh and

as opposed to constantly trying to beat

off anybody who might contradict

right

uh you know your your your current uh

perspective and I think a guy like him

uh

he's his starting point is let me let me

say what I believe and and it doesn't

mean that anybody in public life and and

by the way, anybody who's married,

anybody who's in a relationship, you

know,

it doesn't mean that you you you can't

practice the art of diplomacy that you

can't say

compromised

in ways that are are more likely to be

received,

right? Um, you know, but it it it I

think now more than ever what people

long for and and the word authenticity

gets overused. I think what people long

for is

uh some core integrity

that that seems absent. just a sense

that

ah you know the the person seems to um

walk the walk doesn't just talk the talk

well there's a vulnerability to that.

Yes.

And there's a vulnerability to you know

having that integrity and having those

principles where if you're going to do

it you know straight.

Yeah.

That you know you have to leave yourself

open

uh to what's going to come back at you

and still stand strong.

Correct. and and and and sometimes it's

going to be uncomfortable and and

painful.

Yeah. Look, and and and I and I think

that that's

um you know, there's been a lot of

post-mortem about Democrats and

Yeah.

progressives and you know, I saw you

know your your standup where you said

you know

you know somehow you know we we we

figured out how to be so annoying

and we annoyed the average American into

fascism. Yeah.

which which cracked cracked me up

because there I I wasn't as funny about

saying this but even you know four five

six years ago I'd say you know you you

can't just be a scold all the time. you

you you you can't um constantly lecture

people

without acknowledging that you've got

some blind spots too and that life's

messy and uh you know and and and so the

the vulnerability I think comes in in

saying right I've got some core

convictions

I've got

beliefs that I'm not going to compromise

but I'm also not going to assert that I

am so righteous and so pure

and and and and so insightful that

there's not the possibility that maybe

I'm wrong on this.

Sure. Or that, you know, other people if

they don't say things exactly the way I

say them or see things exactly the way I

do that somehow they're bad people. and

and and and so there was this weird

what what I saw uh in

and and and I think this was a fault of

of

some progressive language was um almost

asserting a a a holier than thou

superiority that's not that different

from what we used to joke about coming

from,

you know, the the right and the moral

majority and you know far away and a

certain fundamentalism about how to

think about stuff that I think was

dangerous

but because it was also a single issue.

Yeah. that they if you have progressives

like you know and how you straddled this

stuff in in general with being you you

know constantly trolled and attacked by

the right and then you have the left who

are like well he droned a lot of people

and then it never goes

I I'd get my ass kicked

right

just

but but it seemed like the intention on

on your behalf and I noticed this is

something that happened to me recently I

was in Canada you know for a couple days

and uh

and I was talking to somebody up there

and and and and I said the the best

thing that that that Trump has done is

bring your country together.

They they they do seem to be uh rallying

around the the maple leaf. But it but it

was it was fundamentally like you know

despite whatever differences they have

and it is a par parliamentary system up

there. But as individuals that however

they were leaning culturally right or

left that when you know the bullying

started and the tariffs started and the

threats started they were able to to go

down to their core beliefs of what their

country meant.

Yes.

And and what it what it meant to them.

Correct. and and how they were, you

know, going to come together and and,

you know, rebuild from the inside

so we don't have to deal with this.

But it struck me as to like, you know,

well, how how are and I know the answer

to some level. How are we not capable of

it? How is it that most people don't

understand the civic responsibility or

the civic structure of how this country

is supposed to work outside of the

people that are shamelessly

uh against it?

Yeah. Look, I I mean,

I think the the the way I describe it,

America has always had

waring narratives.

I mean,

a lot of American history is is a war of

ideas,

right? And and you know, I I gave a

speech probably my the the

speech that is closest to my heart that

I gave throughout my presidency was the

speech I gave on the 50th anniversary of

Selma, the the the march on Selma over

the M Pettis Bridge. And you know, I I

talked about that clash

being as important as as

Gettysburg or Appamatics.

You've got on one side John Lewis and a

rag tag band of, you know, Pullman

porters and maids and clergy and couple

rabbis and college kids

and they're marching from one side and

on the other side you've got um

you know folks with billy clubs on

horseback and fire hoses and dogs and

all that And

what what John Lewis represented was the

narrative that says we the people means

just what it says

that we hold these truths to be

self-evident that all men are created

equal.

Uh, and on the other side was the fact

of

slavery and

conquest and hierarchy and domination

and if you didn't have property, you

didn't vote and women weren't involved

and and and that was always part of

America too,

right?

And

and and

the question has always been,

can we

pull off this experiment in which people

are showing up from all over the place?

They're not tied together by blood. They

don't necessarily worship

God in the same way or worship God at

all. They they they they speak different

languages. They they have all these

weird foods. They they they show up with

these odd customs and and and some of

them were dragged here in chains and and

and

some of them had had their their land

taken from them and their culture

destroyed

and and out of all that, can we create a

a a a shared creed,

right,

that

allows us to live peacefully together

and get stuff done. And on the other

side, there has always been the idea

that no, no, we the people means

something very particular.

Yeah. At each stage and and look, this

led to ultimately civil war, but even

after civil war, you got Jim Crow and

reconstruction and the clan and you

there's always been this fight

over what is the the true story of

America. And and I believe deeply in

this story that yeah, if we can pull

this off, if if we can actually treat

everybody with decency and respect and

compromise and make democracy work, it

shines a light for the entire world,

right? And the other path of of tribe

and a zero- sum game and everything's

dog eat dog and a competition and you

try to take advantage of the other

person because they're going to try to

take advantage of you and if they don't

look like you and they don't believe

what you do and they have a different

faith in you that that they're a threat

to you, that is the path that leads to

things like World War II and the

Holocaust and

uh you know slavery.

and and and pull pot and

and

and Rwanda and you know we've we see how

that plays out and and so the question

is

you know can we can can can the better

in my mind can the can that better story

win and I and I think that after World

War II you and I are basically the same

generation. We grew up in a co a

monoculture

with and and as flawed as it was, you

know, with TV and Walter Kronite, we

were all watching the same things. We

were seeing the same things. We were

listening to the same things. There were

groups that weren't represented. There

was, you know, bias in it. Women didn't

have power,

you know, and were stereotyped in all

kinds of awful ways.

uh the LGBT community was just invisible

and forced in the closet.

There was all kinds of flaws to it, but

it but there was a common narrative

that said, "Yeah, you know, we can all

pledge allegiance to the flag. We can

all uh you know, feel that we are

fullfledged,

you know, true

you know, blooded Americans,

uh, because we believe in these these

certain these ideals. And what you're

seeing right now is a reassertion

of this idea of like, nope, if you don't

look a certain way, you don't think a

certain way, you don't

practice a certain faith, um, you know,

you're not a real American. And and I

started to see this during my that

that's what birtherism was about, right?

Yeah,

that's that's what when Sarah Palin was

talking about real Americans versus

right

I guess the unreal Americans, it was

that that was already boiling over. And

I say all that because I think that um

I think the majority the vast majority

of Americans I still I think still

believe in in that creed that sense of

of unity that that that sense of a

shared narrative but it's not reinforced

a lot in the media. And that's where we

get back to this whole issue of social

media. you you don't hear

that

that um

that sense of of what we have in common

except during the Super Bowl and a

couple other Yeah. maybe during the

Olympics.

A sense of unity, a sense of like people

helping each other. Like I believe that

what you're talking about, you know,

politically in in terms of of what we

spoke about earlier that people are

different and some may have different

beliefs, but there was a compromise that

could be met and that tolerance in and

of itself was is is conditional to

democracy working.

Forbearance, I think, is the the formal

term that political science use. You

have to put up with folks.

That's right.

If they as long as they're not actively

hurting you,

right,

you've got to put up with them. and and

you can battle them and and ultimately

it gets sorted out in politics and the

the winners get to

move their agenda forward and the losers

lick their wounds and come back later.

Yeah.

But there's always that sense of Yeah.

But but we're not going to call each

other vermin,

right?

And we're not going to try to crush you

if you lose.

That's right. But the

we're not going to target you. But the

brains have been, you know, broken, you

know, through exploiting grievance and

anger. And, you know, in talking about

the left that the fact that so many uh

decided to not vote out of protest

because they didn't feel that the, you

know, the situation in Israel, the

ethnic cleansing of of Gaza and whatnot

was not going to be dealt with by Kamla

or however that goes. So you get this

protest vote of people not willing to

make a compromise for what you used to

talk about as the incremental progress.

Yeah. Well, and and and look, that

that's the thing that I spent a lot of

time talking to younger leaders about

this, and it's there's no simple

solution to it, but I will say that

part of what a liberal democracy

requires

is

an acceptance

of partial victory,

right?

And not not perfection. You know, when I

was in the White House,

I'd sit around on any issue with my

cabinet or my staff, senior staff, and

we'd go around analyzing everything. And

at some point, I'd say, "All right, I

think I've got all the information. If

we do X, is this going to make things

better?"

Because, and I'd say I'd tell them

better is good.

Yeah.

We're not going to get to perfect,

right? If if you're telling me that the

Affordable Care Act is going to ensure

50 million people, do I think that's

better than if we had a if we were

starting from scratch and I can get a

singlepayer plan instituted and and and

get that through Congress and suddenly

we had universal healthcare and we had

taken the profit motive out of do I

think that would probably be a smarter

way to Absolutely.

Right.

But since I can't do that yet,

I don't have the votes for that. How

about this? Yeah, we can make it better.

We can make it better, right? And and

you know

this

um

this sense that

things aren't worth it

unless we get everything we want.

I think uh is

is either a recipe for disappointment in

in a democracy but also maybe in life um

or it leads to this weird cynicism where

you just withdraw entirely.

That's that's

and that's part of what happened to uh

too many of our folks. Um, we we I I

think we we we decided, all right, if

I'm not going to get everything,

then that justifies doing nothing. I

It's interesting. I had a conversation

with Malia, my daughter.

Yeah. This was probably 3, four years

ago.

And she was saying to me,

"Dad, you know, I'm talking to a bunch

of my friends and and this climate

change thing, you know, they're just

everybody just feels like it's hopeless

now. It looks like, you know, we just

keep on

throwing this crud into the air.

People aren't listening to science

and we're going to blow through these

targets that the scientists tell us, you

know, if we don't keep it at

a 2% Celsius increase. Um, you know,

we're going to have these catastrophes

and it doesn't seem like there's any

chance for us to do it. So, a bunch of

my friends now say, you know, what's the

point,

right?

Like, u, you know, it's too late. So,

what should I tell them?

And I said, well, you know what? It's

true that we probably will blow through

this target. Um because it's really hard

for humans. It's never been done before

to completely re-engineer our energy

sources in one generation.

Yeah.

And there's greed and profit motives and

just getting people organized and legacy

systems. It's it's hard, but actually

we're making some progress. I said,

you know, if if we're able to stop the

increase at 2.5 instead of three,

it'll there will still be a lot of

disruptions and and flooding and drought

and wildfires and some bad stuff will

happen. But you know what? that half a

centigrade

difference that could be the diff that

could make a difference in in a billion

people's lives,

right? Totally.

And I and I and so I I told her I said,

"You tell your friends,

well, that's worth working for."

Yeah.

You know, it it doesn't mean that we

won't have some really serious problems

because of climate change,

but that's the reality.

But that's the reality. But you know

what? that half% difference that that

that could be in entire coastal

villages. It could be, you know,

what happens in Bangladesh where

hundreds of thousands or millions of

people can eat instead of not eat.

Yeah.

It could affect whether or not people

can make a living where they live as

opposed to trying to cross the oceans to

migrate to places where they can and and

and all the political conflicts that

come with that. that that mentality of

understanding we should be doing better

than we're doing.

Yeah.

We it's it's a shame that we're stuck

with

um this crazy, you know, short-sighted

approach to climate, but well, let's

let's see what we can get done. That I

think is the mentality that all of us

have to carry with us. Well, I I think

what you were talking about about about

cynicism and disengagement is now

there's a level of fear.

Yeah.

That is is real,

right?

And and and justified.

Totally. So, you know, what happens, you

know, in terms of what we're talking

about, all the things that were that you

live through and and and we live through

whether we were kids or not, the

progress that was made,

uh, civil rights, gay rights, women's

rights, uh, you know, things, uh,

policies that were meant to, you know,

make an attempt at at sort of expanding

democratic ideas. And you always had

this core group of the other side that

have been you trying to dismantle this

from, you know, since the New Deal. But

now, you know, and look, the the left

and and people like me, you know, you

you throw around the words, you know,

fascism in relation to authority just

willy-nilly,

right?

And you you talk about authoritarianism

as if it's something that happens

everywhere else. And I think right now

you have a lot of people who are still

locked into this like it could never

happen here. But at some point don't we

have to wake up and say it's happening?

I think there is no doubt that

a lot of the norms,

civic habits,

expectations,

uh,

institutional guard rails that we had,

that we took for granted

for our democracy

have been weakened deliberately.

I don't think they're destroyed, but I

think they have been damaged and it's

and and they've been systematic about

it. I you know, when I when I used to

travel around the world,

um you know, this is back when uh

democracy promotion was still

bipartisan right?

Yeah.

You know, George Bush was for it, Bill

Clinton was for it. Yeah.

I was for it.

U

Marco Rubio apparently was for it,

right? So, so it it wasn't controversial

for me to go to other countries and say,

you know what, it it's a good idea for

militaries to be under civilian control,

you know.

Yeah. Because

um

when when you have

militaries

that can direct force against their own

people,

that is that is inherently corrupting.

And so when you now start seeing the

politization of the military

deliberately right

they just landed in Chicago.

Yeah. That that

Uh what when you have

what what looks like a deliberate end

run

around not just a concept but a law

that's been around for a long time posit

that says you know you don't use our

military on domestic soil un unless

there is a extraordinary emergency of

some sort. short

that when when when you see an

administration suggest that ordinary

street crime is an insurrection

or

or a terrorist act

or a terrorist act.

You know that

is a genuine

effort to weaken

how we have understood democracy

then that that was understood by

Democrats and Republicans.

I always try to

I mean it's it's almost too easy of a

thought experiment.

If I had sent in the National Guard

into Texas

and just said, "You know what?

A lot of problems in Dallas."

You know, a lot of crime there

and uh I don't care what Governor Abbott

says.

I'm I'm going to kind of take over law

enforcement because I think things are

out of control. I It is mind-boggling to

me how

Oh yeah.

Fox News would have responded.

Yeah. I I I mean there were times where

I remember there there was there was a

moment I don't remember what year this

was where

the military just had regular exercises

in Texas out of one of the bases Fort

Wood or

and uh

and I Ted Cruz and and a number of other

folks were out there lending credence to

the fact that I was preparing for you

know the the whole black helicopter one

world government I was about to take

over Texas

and this is like a sitting US senator

was like kind of

retweeting about what what what's going

on with these exercises

secret ops

I didn't even have any I I didn't

monitor military exercises because you

know what that was the Pentagon's job

that was the secretary of defense and

the joint chiefs of staff

and the cocoms

that was their job to to prepare and

focus on military readiness and then

they'd report to me. The the point is

that we have blown through just in the

last six months a whole range of

of not not simply assumptions but rules

and laws and and practices

that were put in place to

ensure that

uh

you know nobody's above the law and that

we don't use the federal government to

simply reward our friends and and and

punish our enemies. And the same thing's

obviously happening in the Justice

Department. So people are right to be

concerned.

the the interesting thing and and and

what I've been trying to do when I've

been speaking about this publicly is

just to remind folks,

you know, just as was true during the

McCarthy era and and has been true

throughout our history.

What's required in these situations is

a few folks

standing up and giving courage to other

folks and then more people stand up and

kind of go like, "Yeah, no, that's

that's not who we are. That's not that's

not that's not our idea of America. M

we we don't want

masked,

you know, folks with rifles and and and

machine guns on patrolling our streets.

Yeah.

You know, we we we we want

we want cops on the beat who know the

neighborhood,

local neighborhood

and and the kids around and and and

that's how we keep the peace around

here, you know. We we don't want uh you

know kangaroo courts and trumped up

charges. That's what happens in in other

places that we used to scold.

Yeah.

For doing that. You know, we we want

like like our court system and our

justice department and our prosecutors

to be and our FBI to be just playing

things straight and looking at the facts

and not meddling in in in politics the

way uh the way we've seen later lately.

And I think if enough people start

not not being in a fetal position, but

also not being just not worrying about

it and and detached from it, but but

being vigilant, but also saying, "H, you

know what?

We Yeah, we can stand up to this. You

know,

we can call it like we see it."

Yeah. You know,

you know, we need we need people who

have whatever platforms they have to be

able to say, "No, that's not who we

are." And to be willing to get

attacked on X.

Yeah.

By whoever

for doing that. And And it's not easy.

Yeah. Because sometimes you fear for

your life.

Yeah. and and and you know there's this

whole process of doxing and

you know I always used to Michelle and I

talk about um

the fact that

you know a lot of our friends we used to

call them civilians cuz if they got

criticized you know on the comment page

about something Yeah they'd be freaked

out and we're like you know what I mean

we we've had so much you know incoming

over the course of 10 years. Now, we

chose it or at least I chose it. Mich as

Michelle will point out and then she was

subjected to it.

Um that that yeah, we you do get a

tougher skin, but I understand how it's

hard when suddenly your email, you know,

your email or or your you phone is

filled up with hostile, nasty,

trolling garbage.

Trolling garbage. Right. And and you've

gotten used to it, too.

But I but I tell you,

you know, it's not like

we're not at the stage where you have to

be like Nelson Mandel and be in a 10 by

12 jail cell for 27 years

and and break rocks. We're not at that

point

right now. There's just a little

discomfort. And so when I say for

example, if you're a law firm,

you know, you saying to

we're going to represent who we want and

we're going to stand up for uh what we

think is our core mission of upholding

the law

and maybe we'll lose some business for

that, but that's what we believe. That's

what's needed. You if you're a

university president, say, "Well, you

know what? this will hurt if we lose

some grant money from the federal

government. But

that's that's what endowments are for.

Let's let's see if we can ride this out

because what we're not going to do is

compromise our basic uh academic

independence. If you're a business and

you say, you know what, you know, we're

we're we're not we're gonna

we we think it's important because of

what this country is to

hire people from different backgrounds

and and and we're not going to be

bullied into saying that we can only,

you know, hire people or promote people

based on some criteria that's been

cooked up by Steve Miller.

Yeah.

you know, we all have this capacity, I

think to

to take a stand and and and ultimately,

this goes back to something I said

earlier about convictions. You know, if

if con if convictions don't cost

anything, then they're really just kind

of fashion. They're not really

conviction. And and I do think that our

generation, yours and mine, Mark, cuz

again, we're about the same age, we were

so accustomed to things kind of getting

better consistently over our lifetimes,

less little less racist, a little less

sexist, less homophobic,

little more

generous.

that

um it was easy, I think, to say, "Well,

yeah, I'm a I'm a progressive,

but it didn't really cost us anything."

You know, we we could take positions on

things that we thought were

um

correct.

Correct.

Yeah.

But they were never really tested. And

so, well, here here's the test.

and and and and and I think I think

ultimately a lot of people will pass,

but I I think they haven't realized yet.

No, we're being tested right now. I I

think people and that includes young

people, right? Like I

understand there are consequences to the

choices

that we're making. If if you decide not

to vote, that's a consequence. If if you

are a Hispanic man and you're you're

frustrated about inflation and so you

decided, ah, you know what, all that

rhetoric about Trump doesn't matter. I'm

just mad about inflation. And now, you

know, your sons are being stopped in LA

because they look Latino,

maybe incarcerated for a few days,

and maybe, you know, without the ability

to call anybody, might just be locked

up.

Well, that's that's your that's a test.

there there's a there's some clarity

that's that's coming about right now

that I wish you know it'd be great if we

weren't tested this way but you know

what it's um

we probably need to be shaken out of our

complacency anyway.

Yeah. And it it what's interesting about

the test and standing up and what you

said the difference between fash fashion

and uh you know standing up is that

people if people are comfortable in

their own lives and and they can

convince themselves that it doesn't

affect them.

I mean that's the biggest challenge.

Yeah. and and also

on the list of of you know universities

and uh law firms and businesses is that

you know corporations yes

are are a different animal in in

relation to the bottom line and to

whatever which way the wind blows

politically and that certainly with the

destruction of of DEI policy they're not

beholdened to uh to tow a democratic

line and that that becomes the biggest

fear in terms of certain freedoms.

Well, look, I mean, we you saw what

happened with Kimmel and and

I mean the consolidation of media. It's

interesting. We were talking about there

there used to be sort of a monoculture.

Yeah. Three TV stations.

Sure.

And PBS.

But you know be partly because it was

coming out of World War II

and I think people had been sufficiently

scared and traumatized by what had

happened in terms of propaganda and

Hitler and all this.

Yeah.

We set up a bunch of structures that

created journalistic standards and

factchecking and clear lines between

opinion and fact and uh and and now

we've got

just as media is just as concentrated

but none of the rules. Right.

Right. And it can feed some of our worst

impulses and and and tell each segment

of people um out there uh you know just

feed back their own biases and

prejudices back to them and and and make

money on it. it. This whole point about

corporations, this is something I've

been thinking a lot about also, is that

um

I do think so much of what's been

driving political instability everywhere

is this

widening massive gulf in

opportunity, wealth, income, right? uh

within countries, between countries. Um

I mean, the idea that that some people

now have three400 billion dollars on

their way to a trillion dollars and

you've got uh you ordinary people still

trying to figure out how to

eat

eat and and and pay the rent. Uh in that

is driving a lot of this, right? And and

part of

what

I think we have to spend more time

thinking about is

some old-fashioned values that that

aren't based just on money and how much

you got and material con uh you know

concerns and and and I'm

uh I am somebody who believes that you

know market based economics is actually

not only the best way to create enough

stuff for everybody to be okay, but I

also think it it's tied to freedom.

State-run economics generally don't work

pretty work very well.

But

so much of our culture now, so much of

what we teach our kids is geared around

buying stuff and having stuff and

posting it on Instagram and then

Right. It's it's winning to some,

right? Winning is now defined

solely by material

uh goods, how much you got and to some

degree fame. that be that's become

another currency. Right.

Right.

And and I do think part of

what our conversation needs to be more

about is and and it used to come out of

the church or you know out of

you know um

the stories we told our kids

was this sense of oh you know what

character matters, honesty matters.

community and family and loyalty and

kindness

matters.

Those are the stories that

that's part of our political project,

right? Is

is reaffirming

that stuff.

I I I think you were asking how I

navigated some of these um conflicts and

and I'd get attacked from the right and

I'd get attacked from the left. One way

I did that was trying to tell people

what I really thought. But, you know,

the other thing was

I actually had some pretty old-fashioned

values, even if I had, you know,

progressive or new fangled ideas.

Yeah.

You know, if I talked about trans

issues,

I wasn't talking to down to people and

saying, "Oh, you're a bigot." I'd say,

"You know what?

It's tough enough being a teenager.

Let's treat all kids decently. Why would

we want to see kids bullied

or shamed

or shamed? Why would we want to do that?

Why wouldn't we want to just, you know,

what if it was our kid?

Yeah.

Right.

And and I think spending more time

talking about why those values are

important. Um not being cynical about

them, not being ironic about it.

Yeah. But saying, "No, no, that stuff

matters."

Sure,

that would make a difference.

All right. Well, we've got our work cut

out for us.

Yeah.

You know what? I I think we're going to

be okay. And I think that part of the

reason you had such a big fan base

during this 16-year run is there was a

core decency to you and the

conversations you had, maybe slightly

edited by Brendan.

Yeah. Thankfully,

that that

I I think speaks to who we are and

yeah, we can't take this stuff for

granted. But I

my my experience is most people are

really decent

and and and I think that's why when they

hear somebody else who is it it uh it

gives them courage and gives them hope

and and uh you should be proud of having

done that.

Well, thank you, Mr. President, and

thank you and I'm I'm glad I made the

trip. If you came to my house the first

time, I'll come here and I hope to uh

talk to you again.

We'll meet uh halfway next time.

Okay, buddy. Thanks, man.

All right.