Quiet Quitting: Why Women Are Emotionally Checking Out of Their Marriage

Modern women, millennial women are quiet quitting their marriages.

These women are staying in marriages when they actually could leave.

So why did this concept resonate with so many [music] women?

The term quietly quitting gave people a voice to what they were already experiencing. [music]

experiencing. [music] The mental load of managing the house and being the CEO of the kids. I feel

like I'm treated like I'm Google.

You're speaking for a lot of women right now. As you're saying this, I'm thinking

now. As you're saying this, I'm thinking all the women are saying, "Aren't we managing everything?" Yeah.

managing everything?" Yeah.

For the longest time, I [music] was like, "Do you even like me?"

Wow. I'm getting emotional.

Women in midlife are saying to [music] their husbands, "You haven't changed.

And I'm evolving. You're not growing.

So, this [music] relationship's not growing. They're stuck in stasis. And

growing. They're stuck in stasis. And

the women are ready for their second act."

act." Look at all the amens.

Hello there, and welcome to the Oprah podcast. I'm so glad to be with you all.

podcast. I'm so glad to be with you all.

So, last fall maybe you saw this article or your friend or your sister may have forwarded to you. This was uh everybody was forwarding this article and

everybody else. It was called the women

everybody else. It was called the women quietly quitting their husbands. It was

in New York magazines the cut and it just it just ricocheted across the internet hitting a real nerve for many

women. It was about women who are over

women. It was about women who are over the age of 40 who instead of going through the the drama, the expense and

the ordeal of divorce have started to just walk away back away emotionally but did stay in their marriages. They

quietly quit their husbands. And I

remember reading this and thinking, I know a lot of women who are doing this.

Watch this. Women are quietly quitting their marriages. That's the headline of

their marriages. That's the headline of the Big Cut article that's got everybody talking.

So, I just learned about quietly quitting your marriage. That is a new term to me. But I do understand it because there is a something significant

that is happening [music] once women turn 40 and up that they're like enough is enough.

Did you see that article about women quiet quitting their husbands? So

instead of getting a divorce, they're just like emotionally checking out of the marriage and keeping the rest of their life intact. It is genuinely shocking how many men are so passive and

just like self-consumed that they don't even register when she has totally withdrawn.

I've seen a lot of talk on this app about women of a certain age who are quietly quitting their marriages.

They're staying married, but basically [music] they're like, "Forget you. I'm

doing me."

Well, that's the summary. Uh, Monica

Corkran Harel is the journalist who wrote that article for the cut. Monica's

here. Where did the idea come from?

It was so interesting. I was on a call with my editor and she said, "We're doing a package on midlife divorce. Do

you have any ideas like people fighting over custody or how you preserve your money?" And I actually whispered to her,

money?" And I actually whispered to her, "What about women who are divorced but not divorced?" And she said, "What are

not divorced?" And she said, "What are you talking about? they're secretly

filing for divorce. And I said, "No, they're acting like they're divorced, but they're staying married." Because I had heard women, you know, I'd go out for a girls night and nobody was in a

rush to get home. Or women were saying, "I'm going away on vacation." And I'd say, "What about your husband? He's not

coming." Or I just found that husbands weren't coming up as often in conversation. And I realized these

conversation. And I realized these couples were almost like it reminded me of toddlers when they're in parallel play. They're playing with toys next to

play. They're playing with toys next to each other, but they're not engaging.

Yeah. And you wrote about this. I was so struck in the article when you wrote that your mother didn't speak to your father for a year and he didn't notice.

It's so shocking. And I was a kid and I remember sitting at the dinner table and my mom would nudge me, pass the salt. My

mom uses a lot of salt. Her blood

pressure is through the roof.

Yeah. and I was like 10 years old and I would pass it to her and I I understood that something was going on that they weren't getting along but I didn't realize that they hadn't topped in so long and she would ask when ask your father if he wants his shirts to go to the

cleaners. Yes.

cleaners. Yes.

And you would ask your father and then he would give you the shirts and never think anything of it.

You know I was 10 years old but I recently talked to her about it and she said after a year my dad said is something wrong? He hadn't even noticed.

something wrong? He hadn't even noticed.

The other thing that struck me in that article, you said that you could see the rage in your mother's narrowed eyes and her gazing at him sometimes from behind

and you could feel it in her chicken catch.

Yes.

Yes. What did you mean by that?

I just knew she was angry.

I mean, as a kid, you can pick up on emotions.

Yeah.

It's interesting. I talked to her the other night and she said, you know, I was hurt and then the hurt turned to hate.

Wow. So, I probably missed out on the hurt. Maybe I didn't recognize that, but

hurt. Maybe I didn't recognize that, but I definitely saw the hate.

Yeah. Or certainly resentment. Certainly

resentment. Well, the reason the catchy line struck me so is that it reminded me and I think everyone who read that article that even when you think you're

hiding it, it comes through in other ways. You know, you felt it but you

ways. You know, you felt it but you didn't know what you were feeling. So,

what has been the reaction from readers?

The reaction has been very emotional.

The reaction has been we're doing this podcast about it. Yeah. Yeah.

I still get um messages from women every day. In fact, I just heard from a woman

day. In fact, I just heard from a woman who told me that she set up a private Instagram account so that she could find community and she said she was so ashamed because she's a psychologist and

she said, "I should not be quietly quitting, but I need to meet other women."

women." So, the reaction it continues.

It it hasn't stopped. If anything, it seems to have grown.

Yeah. And how do you feel being the woman who unleashed this for us?

I feel great about it. I really do. I I

knew I was opening a Pandora's box, but when Pandora opened that box, what she left in the box was hope. And I like to think that this is maybe going to

hearken some change. And I also want to say I feel like as a kid, I couldn't do anything for my mom. And in writing this article, it felt like I made up for not being there for her.

But but isn't it true too that husbands are quiet quitting within the marriage also?

Yes. I think in a lot of cases they're reacting. I don't know that they're

reacting. I don't know that they're initiating. And I think some men just

initiating. And I think some men just live quietly quitting.

Mhm.

They're just not as engaged in their relationships.

So why did this concept resonate with so many women? Nedra Glover Tawab is a

many women? Nedra Glover Tawab is a licensed therapist. You've seen her here

licensed therapist. You've seen her here on the OpER podcast several times before. She's a New York Times

before. She's a New York Times best-selling author and relationship expert. Her brand new book is The

expert. Her brand new book is The Balancing Act. Welcome back to the

Balancing Act. Welcome back to the podcast, Nandra. And Julie Manado is a

podcast, Nandra. And Julie Manado is a therapist and the best-selling author of Secure Love: Create a Relationship That

Lasts a Lifetime. We welcome you, Julie.

Okay. What do you think this idea of quiet quinning? Why is it now just

quiet quinning? Why is it now just resonating in such a way that we haven't been able to formally articulate before?

Well, most people don't quietly quit their partners. They quietly quit

their partners. They quietly quit emotional disconnection. So, I like to

emotional disconnection. So, I like to think of emotional disconnection is the disease and quiet quitting is the latestage symptom of the disease. Um,

and when I say emotional disconnection, I also mean just the pain of continuing to reach for something and still ending up feeling hurt and alone. Um, there's a there's a quote I love, a Sue Johnson

quote, that the only thing couples are ever really asking each other is, "Are you going to be there for me when I really need you?" And when the answer to that question is no enough of the time

and it can be over, you know, small things like needing comfort after a long day and just getting distracted responses or sharing something important and feeling dismissed. Um, these little

small things accumulate over time and they can actually do as much damage to a relationship as big things like affairs.

So, repeat that question cuz I know that that that resonated with a lot of people. The only question you're ever

people. The only question you're ever asking in your marriage is, "Are you going to be there for me when I really need you?"

Emotionally, you agree with that, Nedra?

Yes. And I'd say that the term quietly quitting gave people a voice to what they were already experiencing. I don't

know if my grandparents had that term and and many other couples that we know who shared separate bedrooms or separate lifestyles. We didn't have a term for

lifestyles. We didn't have a term for it. But now that we do, it's like, "Oh,

it. But now that we do, it's like, "Oh, yeah. It's me. It's this other person.

yeah. It's me. It's this other person.

It's, you know, we can think of so many people that this applies to." And as we're seeing, people are connecting with it.

Yeah. People were just checked out.

Yeah. Because they weren't getting what they want. And what do you think that

they want. And what do you think that women are not getting from their spouses that leads them to actually quiet quit?

It's the support. It is the emotional connection. It is the do you like me?

connection. It is the do you like me?

It's do you do you even see me?

Do you even see me? Do you like me? Do

you hear what I'm saying?

We often in relationships think about how it was in the beginning when someone was courting us and there were all these signs that they were interested and 5 10 years later we don't see any of that.

And so now people are like am I even here for you? Do you see me?

Where where is this relationship? What

is it now?

Yeah. Well, you know what that is? I

used to say this all the time that I found in every guest the experience of people wanting to know, do you see me?

Do you hear me? Does what I say mean anything to you? And I think that that is a fundamental issue in every relationship. Do you see me? Do you hear

relationship. Do you see me? Do you hear me? And does what I say mean anything?

me? And does what I say mean anything?

And I think if you're in relationship with somebody and you no longer feel seen or heard, it means you also don't feel validated or valued. And that's

that's sort of it, right? What's

happening, would you say?

Yes, absolutely.

Yeah.

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So, I want to bring in some of our uh audience members who are going through this right now. Uh so, Handy, how are you?

Hi. Yeah,

I'm doing well. Thank you. It's an honor to be here.

Pretty in that green dress.

Thank you. Thank you.

Yeah. So, what's going on?

Well, I um am here I I can relate to every single thing that was said here because I've been married um to my husband for 19 years. We have two teenage daughters,

19 years. We have two teenage daughters, a senior in high school and a junior in high school.

And um I saw a quote a while back and it said, "Do you want to be loved like this for the rest of your life?" And the

answer is no. And so for the past three years, I've been on this journey of tapping into me, healing me, going within the stillness and silence

within. And the more I grow, the more

within. And the more I grow, the more I'm getting push back from my husband.

And the more I express, I want to be emotionally connected to you. This is what I desire. This is what

you. This is what I desire. This is what I need from my partner. It is a a dismissal, a denying that I'm doing that or a twist.

And how does that dismissal show itself or manifest itself? Does he say you're lying or I don't see what you're saying?

You have a cush life. You have a good life. I'm here. I said, 'Yes, you're

life. I'm here. I said, 'Yes, you're physically here, but you don't know anything that's going on in my life.

We've se slept in separate bedrooms for years. Um, it started out because of

years. Um, it started out because of snoring and it was a grief for me because my husband I felt like that time at night like we could come together and talk and yeah,

that was a real grief um for me. So, I've reached kind of the end

for me. So, I've reached kind of the end of this chapter with my girls soon to go off to college and um I want to connect

with my husband and he says things like, "Why can't you just coexist and be married? Why does everything have to be

married? Why does everything have to be a Disney movie?" And I'm not wanting Disney. I'm wanting connection.

Disney. I'm wanting connection.

Yeah. All right. Well, you know what? I

was just thinking and as I was preparing for the show today and all of you who are speaking about your personal relationships, I often wonder this, what happens when you go home? First of all,

I think it's really courageous of you, brave of you, bold of you to share this uh with the world and so many other

women in particular and also men listening are seeing themselves in your story. But what happens when you go home

story. But what happens when you go home after you've shared this with all of us?

Well, everything I'm saying here, I've said before. Okay. And one thing I want

said before. Okay. And one thing I want to be clear about is that I love my husband so much. And I see with a little bit of effort how we could connect and,

you know, be that stable family for our girls, but I cannot do it alone. So, um,

I have to speak my truth because, you know, I just need more. Are you and your friends talking about this?

Oh yeah.

Yeah. The way Monica described in the article, are you all talking about it?

Yes. Especially in my age group. I'm 44

and our our kids are, you know, flying the nest to go off to college and so we're we're about to be in this next chapter and it's an uneasy thing. Like

what does that look like?

So what's your question for our experts for Nedra or Julie? Um, I have just tried every approach

possible and it's always met with a blog with glimmers of showing up and that there's love there and that he wants the

same thing. But unless I'm happy handy,

same thing. But unless I'm happy handy, things if I'm not happy, things get wobbly. And I just want to know for me

wobbly. And I just want to know for me what what can I do um that perhaps I haven't said or tried before. You know,

maybe my approach is wrong.

You know, you asked the question, do I want to be loved like this? And I was hearing a different question. Am I being loved right?

Am I being cared for? What does care look like in this relationship? Has

there been any conversations not about love because he's saying, "I love you.

Look, you have a home. You have these things. What you're talking about is the

things. What you're talking about is the care."

care." Yeah.

Yeah.

I don't feel connected. I don't feel attuned. I don't feel cared for. Here

attuned. I don't feel cared for. Here

are things that would make me feel cared for in this relationship.

And Nedra, also isn't the isn't the important question, [clears throat] am I being loved? Because of your point is

being loved? Because of your point is from his point of view he may say I'm showing you I love you because look I pay the bills or you have a house or you're living this cushy life but isn't

the question am I being in the love am I being loved the way I need I need and that can evolve in a in a 19-year marriage you know I've been married 16

years and the things that I've needed over the years have shifted during different periods of time and so yeah in relationships and friendships like we grow and change.

Yes.

And so the things that made you feel loved and cared for maybe 10 years ago like that security that was really important at one point

but what you need now is this emotional part that's not being met. Yes. So

having more conversations about that and also it sounds like you've done a lot and I wonder if there is space for do I

want to continue in this way and be patient with him growing or is there something else that I need to consider here right

yeah I feel that Elizabeth Winkler says we don't ever step in the same river twice so we are ever evolving and I say growth is essential in a relationship

and I and I think that you saying being patient with um him and that's where I put my ego in check too. I don't want to be responding in ego and I think that's

a beautiful thing and you know we have this window left before our youngest goes off to school. Um so that's really beautiful. Thank you

beautiful. Thank you Julie.

Yeah. So the the goal here the endgame is emotional connection. That's what

happen.

And so now we have to work backward from there and say, "Well, what's getting in the way?" And 100% of the time when I'm

the way?" And 100% of the time when I'm working with couples, the very same thing is getting in the way. And it's

these negative communication cycles they're getting stuck in when they try to talk about the problem. So you bring the problem to him and you're like, "Look, I'm I'm dying over here. I'm

alone. You know, help me out." out and then he hears criticism that taps into his shame and he doesn't know how to talk about that cuz he never learned how. And so what he does is he, you

how. And so what he does is he, you know, says something to push you away, blames you, whatever. Then you feel dismissed. So we've got to get you guys

dismissed. So we've got to get you guys out of that cycle.

And what needs to happen first is he's got to be open to learning how to start talking, to start speaking vulnerably.

And what if he isn't?

If he isn't, then we have to go, okay, where do we go from there? So the first thing is, you know, there there are a few different things you can try. One is

what can really help and it's not a guarantee. Of course, there's no

guarantee. Of course, there's no relationship advice out there that's a guarantee is instead of sending the message, here's what you're getting wrong, here's what you're getting, you don't want to get help, you don't want

to get help, lean into the resistance.

Lean in and say, listen, I understand you must have really good reasons for not wanting to get help. Something is

threatening about that. I don't know what it is, but I'm willing to hold that with you and try to understand it even when I disagree because of course you disagree. You and I both know that you

disagree. You and I both know that you need help for this to work, right? But

sometimes when you can just kind of lean in is you're wanting more validation, right, around things that he doesn't see eye to eye with you on. And so if we can do that and model that and say, you know

what, listen, I'm willing to understand more about what is so scary for you about getting help. Help me understand.

That's that's basically you saying, "Look, I'm here with you. Let's do this as a team." And a lot of times when people feel that understanding and validation, their nervous systems do start to feel safer and open up.

I'm not thinking he's going to open up about that, but okay. [laughter]

I'm not thinking that somebody enjoy your cushy life is willing to now share with you what his fears are about.

I've seen it a thousand times.

Okay. Well, no more than we all do. So,

there you go.

I know it. I'm telling you what I have found over and over is that when couples learn to do vulnerability, um, the relationship symptoms do start to ease up.

Okay.

I'm hoping that does.

Okay. Thank you. Kesha's here. You're

living this in real time, right?

Yes, very much so.

And posting on TikTok trying to help other women going through it.

Yeah.

Tell us what's happening with you.

Yeah. Well, about back in May, um I think I like to say that parameopause came and tapped me on the shoulder and said "Kesha well that's what parameopause is.

It will it'll tap you on the shoulder."

Yeah.

And it said, "Kesha, marriage shouldn't feel this way."

So for 16 years, I had been bridging the emotional gap in our relationship. If a

hard conversation needed to be had, I was the one facilitating it. if repair

needed to be made, I was usually the one to start the repair, even if it wasn't my fault. And um I came to him with that

my fault. And um I came to him with that and talked about my grievances cuz this even extended into, you know, how we operated in our home. If something in our home needed a decision, it was me

making that decision. Um so I came to him with that and for the most part, he didn't disagree. Um, but the main thing

didn't disagree. Um, but the main thing I got from him was, I don't know how to fix it. So, I asked him if he'd be open

fix it. So, I asked him if he'd be open to moving it to separate rooms cuz I I needed time to center myself and figure out what this was going to look like.

And he agreed with that. And my hope was in that time period that he would come to me, that he would, you know, bridge the gap. You know, I spent 16 years

the gap. You know, I spent 16 years bridging the gap. I wanted him to I don't know why I thought this but be my night and shining armor and say hey I'm gonna fight for this I'm gonna fight for you here's what I'm gonna do these are

the things that I've started and in the time period after we separated I got primarily silence avoidance separated within the same house yeah okay yeah so we we separated went into

another room and he he did not bridge that gap and so it got to a point where I realized that I needed to emotionally separate I needed I was because I was

devastated. I was grieving what I

devastated. I was grieving what I thought my marriage was. I was waking up crying, going to sleep crying, starting all over everything. I was um just fully

just devastated. Um so in grief, in

just devastated. Um so in grief, in grief that in grief of that so something you said that struck me, I don't know if you if you resonated with you all too and you all listening to us right now.

You said, "I wanted him to be my night in shining armor." And I'm wondering if if that's part of the problem is that everyone has this vision or a lot of

people have this vision of the night in shining armor that we have an idea of who should be in this this person should be in this relationship.

Yeah. I heard a little bit of romcom love right?

Yeah. I want this problem. And then he swoops in and he figures it out and he saves the day. And we see that over and over on TV.

Yeah.

Um but in real life, people don't figure things out without us telling them. Um

sometimes the the separation that we encourage pushes us further apart. And

what could be more helpful is being really clear with people. Um it sounds like you reach reached a place of burnout, right? when you're carrying a

burnout, right? when you're carrying a relationship for so many years and it's like okay when are you going to jump in and this person is like you've been doing it

so you're 100% and they're zero or you're 90 and they're 10 you know they're like what's wrong I've been doing 10% all along and you're like nope I'm going to 20 so it's you're at 10 and

I'm at 20 now what that's essentially what what happened yeah so are you still grieving within the relationship are you still grieving I feel like I've successfully fully

detached to some degree. Of course, I have moments where I kind of mourn things, but at the end of the day, I I don't think this is going to work cuz I can't be in a marriage by myself.

Everybody went, [laughter] "Amen, Kesha." Amen. Amen. A amen to

"Amen, Kesha." Amen. Amen. A amen to that. Yes. You wanted to say, Julie,

that. Yes. You wanted to say, Julie, well, I I mean, there's there's a lot of layers here. I think that to first of

layers here. I think that to first of all I think you're doing the absolute best job you can with what you have you know and the grief is basically your nervous system saying there's been a

death here and the death is the loss of what I had hoped this relationship would be and you know there is it's hard you know that um but there is a lot of

empowerment on the other side of that because being in a situation where you're reaching for something over and over and not getting it is very disempowering.

And so I just, you know, I'm I'm happy that you were able to to get through the the painful part.

Absolutely. Um disempowering is a great word because for the longest time I was like, do you even like me?

Yeah.

You know, why would you let me carry all of this on my own? And I I I think it was just he was just illquipped.

Honestly, I he was just not taught.

Yeah.

And and how does he learn if he has no practice?

That's true. But how does he learn if he doesn't try?

There's there doesn't seem to be willingness there.

They have to be open to learning, right?

That's the that's the deal breaker, right? You know,

right? You know, does he have the capacity?

That part. [laughter]

Does he have the capacity?

I don't think so. I I really don't.

That's a whole another thing. Yeah.

Yeah. That's a whole another thing. If

the person actually doesn't have the capacity to learn or to want to learn or to want to try or to Yeah.

Yeah. So, can I ask my Yeah, please do go.

Go. Go for it.

So, we have 15-year-old twins and we've been cohabitating in this way for about a year. The plan is eventually to

a year. The plan is eventually to separate completely. Um, but I don't

separate completely. Um, but I don't know, I'm getting emotional. I don't

know if I'm hurting them by us being in this household together. Um, and they're watching us and we're cordial with one another. There's there's no animosity.

another. There's there's no animosity.

Um, but us being in this house in this way, am I hurting my kids by doing it this way?

Yeah. So, I when someone asks me, you know, is this healthy or is this not healthy? The question I always ask is,

healthy? The question I always ask is, what does your nervous system have to say? So, if you're walking around, you

say? So, if you're walking around, you know, and and your kids are walking around feeling anxious or tense a lot of the time, then that that is a a sign that maybe it's time to consider some

other options. M

other options. M you guys seem like you're, you know, in somewhat of an easy environment and things are working. So, I think this is a season of your life and you're doing a fantastic job with what you have.

Thank you.

Yeah.

Thank you. I feel I do feel that way.

We've been pretty transparent with them and for the most part they're like, "Look, mom, we just started high school.

We're sorry y'all are going through that but so yeah, that's really the sentiment."

And you know what? That's a testament to you that your children aren't wanting to take care of you. So, you're you're doing a fantastic job. Yeah.

Thank you.

I just saw you nod though, Monica, cuz you were in a household where your mother didn't speak to your dad for a year. And how do you think that impacted

year. And how do you think that impacted you?

So, interesting. I got married at 38.

And I never thought about this, but the reason I got married so late is because my mom would have left my dad if she had had the financial resources, if she'd been autonomous. She didn't go to

been autonomous. She didn't go to college. So, without thinking of it, I

college. So, without thinking of it, I delayed my marriage until I was fully independent. Having said that, my

independent. Having said that, my parents didn't talk at all and it sounds like you and your husband are really have it out in the open and your kids you have a discussion about it. My mom

never talked to me about it. So,

I just had to make my own conclusions.

So, that age appropriate communication is valuable.

I just want to share this because this thought just came into my mind as you were speaking. I remember doing an

were speaking. I remember doing an interview with Adele and she was talking about leaving her marriage

and she said and you know nothing was really wrong. I was just unhappy

really wrong. I was just unhappy and he had done nothing. I had done nothing. I was just unhappy and I wanted

nothing. I was just unhappy and I wanted my son to have a happy mother.

Yep.

And so I think there's some value in that. I mean she's Adele. She can leave.

that. I mean she's Adele. She can leave.

She's independent and can do whatever she she wants. But I think that there is also some value in showing your children a happy mother.

What would you say to that, Nedra?

Seeing your parents happy is a gift that some of us do not get to experience, especially happily in love with not even their other parent, but someone.

Just that model of what a loving home can look like. I will say for you, it does sound like you're in an amicable situation. So, it's not um stressful to

situation. So, it's not um stressful to the kids and it's beautiful that you're having that open communication and also them seeing you happy matters.

Yeah.

Yeah.

Thank you, Jess. I hear you are feeling like you're tired of managing everything too.

Exhausted. I think that the mental load of managing the house and being the CEO of the kids and knowing where everybody has

to be at every moment alone.

Didn't really I didn't realize I was doing it until maybe the last few years. And now he'll ask a question like where is practice or what are we and I'm thinking it's the

same place every Tuesday for the last six years. How do we not know yet? Come

six years. How do we not know yet? Come

on.

I feel like I'm treated like I'm Google.

Where is it? How do I get it? You know,

and there's like this weaponized incompetence behind it. You're better at it, so you'll do it. You always do it, so you'll do it. And so, I think for me, it's not so much about quiet quitting

maybe than marriage as it is like the role I have in it. I don't My kids are 19 and 17.

Yeah.

You're speaking for a lot of women right now. As you're saying this, I'm thinking

now. As you're saying this, I'm thinking I mean, all the women are saying, "Aren't we managing everything?" Yeah.

you know, um I just feel like now maybe there's a little bit of time to figure myself out and I'm realizing, wait, I'm still moming. It's just not as much

still moming. It's just not as much these two and I'm realizing, you know, I'm doing it over here, too.

Look at all the amens.

You know, this isn't new. People are

calling this a phenomenon, but this isn't new because women have been doing this for years, as you were saying earlier. We're just calling it something

earlier. We're just calling it something different. But what feels different

different. But what feels different about it is that such modern women, millennial women like yourselves are quiet quitting. That's the point of the

quiet quitting. That's the point of the cut story. Correct, Monica?

cut story. Correct, Monica?

Yes. These women are staying in marriages when they actually could leave, you know, financially. They have

careers. Um they're staying for their kids. What I found really interesting,

kids. What I found really interesting, and this pertains to modern women, you know, in the past you would say to a boyfriend, "You've changed. you're not

the person I met. And now women in midlife are saying to their husbands, you haven't changed and I'm evolving.

You're not [clears throat] growing. So

this relationship's not growing. So

that's I think one of the biggest challenges in midlife marriage for modern women and husbands is that the women have grown. Yes.

And in many cases, the men have not.

Yes.

Yes.

They're stuck in stasis and the women are ready for their second act.

Amen.

Amen.

Amen. Amen. Okay. What is your question for Nedra or Julie?

My question is, am I withdrawing because we're in an unhealthy spot and something needs to change or is it because I've given up doing any vulnerable work?

You know, it it makes me think of what is your role in other relationships even outside of this because I'm hearing a lot of responsibility and taking on

duty. So, is that your role in the

duty. So, is that your role in the family, your role at work, your role in friendships? like

friendships? like how do you step back in a way where you can preserve self in a lot of scenarios and it sounds like

there's been a lot of overgiving at home to the the point that people are like I I don't even know like what what should we do here because you've taught people how to treat you yeah hyper independence it's killed me

yeah and your kids are 19 and 17 now you know 19 and 17 you're working yourself out of that parenting role. So,

they should pretty much be able to figure out where their own soccer is, right? And sometimes for people to learn

right? And sometimes for people to learn the things that we already know, we have to just leave them. When I work with couples, especially with younger kids and the mom is like, "Oh my gosh, I have

to do all these things before he takes the kid." Let him leave the house with a

the kid." Let him leave the house with a illquipped diaper bag. And that's how he learns how many diapers to pack.

We have to let people fail. Drive to the wrong location.

Hard. So hard.

And let those kids redirect you. And

then you'll figure out where soccer is.

You'll figure out the entrance. Turn

your phone off. Don't be available. Let

them figure it out.

It's good advice.

Drive to the wrong location. Really?

[laughter] They'll get there late. It'll be fine. I

know. I know. I I know you just you're thinking I can't do that. I can't I can't do that.

I really can't.

Okay. So, Nedra, in your book, uh the balancing act, you write, you say, "Yes, independence is healthy. It's strength,

but hyperindependence isn't a strength.

Too little dependence on others leaves us feeling alone in our deepest struggles and crisis." And this is this is this is calling your name, is it not?

Absolutely.

Is it also calling your name, too?

All of you. 100%.

Yeah. So, what do you want to say about that hyper independence?

Step back. Step back. Get out of the way. It is hard.

the way. It is hard.

It's hard to let them go to the wrong location.

Also, it also lessens the resentment that people won't help you. Well, they

can't.

True. So, true.

No one can help you cook a meal if you're like doing everything and you know how to cut this, right? And you

know, let people mess up. Let them

figure it out. Get out of the way. if

you have to leave the house, if you have to turn your phone off, what whatever needs to be done for you to allow people to practice the things you already know.

Yeah.

So, give them more things to do without you being in the middle of it.

Julie, yeah. So, that I couldn't agree more. We

yeah. So, that I couldn't agree more. We

got to get you stepping back. So, now we have to figure out, well, what's the block to stepping back? The block is the pain you're going to have to feel temporarily when you jump off that cliff. And you're going to have to feel

cliff. And you're going to have to feel feelings. It's scary, right? You're

feelings. It's scary, right? You're

going to have to feel out of control.

Things might go wrong. How are you going to feel? What's the fear in that? You

to feel? What's the fear in that? You

know, what's it going to be like to think your child is, you know, sitting there at soccer for 30 minutes when your husband can't find them? That's terrible

feeling. I mean, it'll probably work itself out, but and it's probably a catastrophized fear also. But we got to sit with that. We got to go. Okay, hold

on. Let me just take a breath here. What

is this urge about that's making me want to just jump in and and micromanage here and make sure that he's getting everything right? Well, I'm scared of

everything right? Well, I'm scared of the consequences. I'm scared of my

the consequences. I'm scared of my daughter feeling alone and feel some of that pain because you've probably felt that pain in life before. Your body

knows what it's like to feel alone and stranded. You don't want your child to

stranded. You don't want your child to feel that way, right? Right. And so it's about learning to sit with those emotions and process them so you don't just have to, you know, try to stuff them down and keep going forward. Agree.

Thank you. You're welcome.

Uh my producers in preparing for this show spoke to a number of husbands uh who said there's another side to the story that they too feel uh emotionally

disconnected because they've been ignored by their wives for the children.

They feel disconnected and they feel lonely because all the attention goes to everything except them. So what do you want to say to women about what their

partners might be feeling?

We have more jobs than we thought. We

thought the job was taking care of the kids, but it's also remaining a partner.

And sometimes when the kids come along, we put so much energy because they're these beings that need so much of us that we do forget about our partners.

And we have to not manage both equally, but we have to pull each other in and acknowledge that this is a stressful new situation and we

have to continue to prioritize the connection and the marriage and not just parent. And I think part of the issue is

parent. And I think part of the issue is that the modern woman, you lovely women in your 40s are asking the question, how why do I have to do it all?

Oh, yeah.

Is that is that is that what you're finding?

Yes. And I just want to say I don't want to blow up anyone's marriage, but in my report, you already have. [laughter]

What I found was now you're trying to moonwalk it back after you wrote the article that went viral, but now like I don't want to blow up anyone's marriage. But

all of the men felt blindsided and I spoke with many therapists who echoed this and divorce court uh coaches and men, they were shocked and they didn't

act until women took action. So talking

and talking, men didn't hear it. They

heard wa wa and then when they saw the suitcases whether they were yours or his it was all of a sudden what can we do? I

don't want this to happen again. I just

this was a common theme. I was shocked that these men were blindsided but so was my dad. He didn't realize that my mom felt this way.

The thought you asking him to would suits go to the cleaners never occurred to him that that was a problem cuz that's the way you all communicated in the house. You actually started the the

the house. You actually started the the article talking about the the kind of woman your mother is now that when you see her that she's got the la describe what happened to your mother when she finally got out.

When my mom finally left my dad, she had such a renaissance. I mean, it was like her life started again and it's been so great to watch. It was tough for her,

but the other side was magical. She

really got to be who she always wanted to be. And in fact, she told me that had

to be. And in fact, she told me that had she not been with my dad, she would have been an artist living in the West Village painting.

I think you started saying you could notice her jewelry from a block away or Oh, yeah. My mom is a loud woman and

Oh, yeah. My mom is a loud woman and she's from Brooklyn, but in that marriage, she was quiet and now she's loud again. So,

loud again. So, yeah, that's so interesting. Do you feel yourself being repressed too in the marriage at all?

Yeah, I I did have I had to shrink myself to accommodate this marriage.

Yeah. Um, and now that I've had this platform, I I've see myself emerging into this woman that I never knew that I could be.

Wow. Jess, same thing.

I don't feel like I've shrunk myself. I

feel like I've just needed to take over.

And so, I'm so busy doing all the things. I don't have time to be small

things. I don't have time to be small cuz stuff needs done, right? Cuz you're managing everything.

right? Cuz you're managing everything.

Cuz I'm managing everything. Yes. Yes. Yeah. So, one of

everything. Yes. Yes. Yeah. So, one of the things Julie you say in your book, you write that emotional validation along with understanding is arguably the single most important element of a truly

satisfying rel relationship. Emotional

validation. So, how can women get emotional validation from their husbands, especially those who who are feeling that they've tried this without success?

Yeah. You know, first of all, some people don't want to validate because they think that if I emotionally validate you, then I'm going to um give up my own needs or give up my own perspective here or I have to agree with

whatever it is that you're saying. And

that's not what validation is.

Validation is, hey, even when we don't see eye to eye, I'm still willing to step in and kind of understand your feelings over it. So, I think when men can learn that this there's success in

this, it doesn't mean giving your own needs. And actually, it takes way less

needs. And actually, it takes way less time to validate someone than it does to get in an argument for an hour because you're not feeling validated.

Right? You know what's going to be validating? Thank you all for listening

validating? Thank you all for listening to this this podcast. I know

throughout the land there are people watching and listening to us who are feeling very validated from just hearing this. I think being able to articulate

this. I think being able to articulate it and put a name on it, that it is quite quitting, that other women throughout the world also feel this

makes people feel like they are seen or heard and that you're not the only ones, right? And I'm sure you discovered this

right? And I'm sure you discovered this when you started uh your Tik Tok.

Oh, absolutely. I I had no expectation that anyone would watch them. I was just I'm a perger. I like to get it out and I Well, let's take a look at one of the things you did on the Tik Tok. Pick a

want to talk to the woman in a long-term relationship. She knows it isn't

relationship. She knows it isn't working, but she feels stuck. Where you

at, friend? Come to the front. I see you in the comments. I've been with him 30 years. This is just my life now. I can't

years. This is just my life now. I can't

support myself. I don't even know how I'd leave. And then somebody always

I'd leave. And then somebody always says, "Just leave."

"Just leave." Let's be serious. It's easy to say that when you're not the one who has to rebuild your whole damn life. Yeah.

[applause] And what's what's been what's been the response Kish?

Just women coming out of the woodwork telling me that I've given them words to something that they've been feeling for so long.

Um validation. There's just so many women who think that they're alone. I

keep hearing, "I thought I was the only one. I thought I was the only one." And

one. I thought I was the only one." And

it it's been incredible the outpouring of just support for my own situation.

Yeah. As I started the show, this podcast, I was saying I think there are probably more people in this situation than are actually getting divorce because the divorce rate for women in

their 40s has, you know, leveled. Uh

it's women over 50 and over 65 that the divorce rate has gone up so so so uh severely. But I think for women in you

severely. But I think for women in you all's age age range, a lot of people are just pulling back and waiting to see what the next move is going to be. Yep.

Yep. Well, thank you. Thank you all so much for being a part of this conversation. And thank you to Julie and

conversation. And thank you to Julie and her book, Secure Love, is available wherever books are sold. She's also the creator of the Secure Relationship. It's

an online platform that reaches millions. And thank you again to Nedra.

millions. And thank you again to Nedra.

Uh her brand new book is called The Balancing Act, available everywhere also. And thank you, Monica. You started

also. And thank you, Monica. You started

all this here for for sparking this conversation. Uh, and to all of you for

conversation. Uh, and to all of you for coming and sharing your stories. I hope

this episode will do exactly what we're talking about, that it will allow you to know that you're not alone in your marriage. And my hope is that you find

marriage. And my hope is that you find some some some peace and contentment no matter what path you choose for yourself. We'll meet up next time. Go

yourself. We'll meet up next time. Go

well, everybody. Thank you. [applause]

If you could relate to our guest stories today and feel like you have also quietly quit your marriage, I encourage you to check out Julie Manano's book, [music] Secure Love, and Nedra Glover

Tawab's book, The Balancing Act. Their

books might just help you understand what isn't working in your relationship and [music] help you find a new way forward. You can buy each book right now

forward. You can buy each book right now by scanning the QR codes on your screen.

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