Real Tips for Your Demo Reels & Clips | The Business | SAG-AFTRA Foundation

So in a in one sentence describe what

you do and in another sentence why you

love it and let's go down the star the

down the line starting here.

>> Okay. Uh I'm a talent manager. I work

primarily with actors. I represent a few

filmmakers. Uh why I love it is uh as

someone who uh also started as an actor,

proud union member, um I wanted to be

the kind of representation uh that I

felt I was looking for.

>> Uh I'm a talent manager and what I say

for people who are sort of outside of

the industry but looking inside and

trying to explain our weird job is the

way that I see sort of talent management

is like you're hiring the CEO of your

business and your artistry. Uh, and then

why I love this job, I'm a very

vicarious person and so I enjoy sort of

being attached and in a small way part

of other people's dream paths. Uh, the

people in my life who inspired me the

most always sort of like lived for

others and this is by a small part of

doing that

>> and he stole the good stuff to say.

Uh also in talent management um you know

there isn't much that we don't do in

terms of advising counseling um

marketing positioning actors being in

the emotional trenches with you guys

like being inherently v vulnerable. This

is the longest run runon sentence ever.

Um but basically like our job is to be

whatever you need us to be and to figure

out how to get you to where you want to

be. Like that's a nice way to put that.

And then I just I love people. I love

actors. I love making things like come

together for everybody. So I wish I had

the bandwidth to like help everyone. I

don't. Often times we find I'm talking

too much. I will be that person on this

panel. Anyway, I just love actors and

we'll leave it at that.

>> Ciao.

>> Yeah, I really want to say I'm the CEO

of your demo reel just because I thought

that was so good.

>> There we go.

>> Yeah, that's such a good line. I'm going

to say that for everything. Tell tell my

wife that when I go that will go.

>> I get 10%. will not go well. Uh I'm an,

you know, I'm an editor. I've worked in

this industry in various capacities.

I've been a producer, uh editor, writer,

all this kind of stuff. I've done

everything. I've always come back to

editing every every time. Um and the

first job I ever had in Los Angeles was

editing demo reels and I've kept that

going ever since. So it's like 20 years

of that. And uh I really like editing

because it's like solving a problem. And

in this case, the problem is like and

for actors it's like how do you really

present this actor? How do you get the

best out of out of their material? and

how do you get them to the next level of

their career? And that's a problem I've

just always liked solving.

>> I'm going to add I've worked with Joe

for 14 years.

>> Yes,

I've been doing demo reels for over 40

years now. That's all I've really ever

done. I haven't been a producer. I did a

couple short films, but as an editor, I

just love the challenge of making scenes

better on people's reels. I've had to

reshape everything so the other actors

aren't not in the scene as much. And

sometimes it's helping certain certain

lines that my client doesn't doesn't

really like in there. How to fix that.

And just the helping people. I've always

been a people person. And I love when

clients tell me their real got them job.

So,

>> all right. Round of applause. Thank them

for being here.

We thank you for being here. All right.

First thing, how do you view or think of

demo reels and clips? anyone who wants

to jump in.

>> I think that's all kind of managerial

stuff. We're we we

make those demo reels, but where where

they're actually use the tools and how

you guys market with them. That's more

your

>> I think you should see every clip that

you have sort of in your possession as

an arsenal uh as a as a as a different

>> wonderful words

>> but as a different sort of way for us to

be able to present you for an open

opportunity for you to be able to get

and so the breadth and the depth of what

you have in your sort of arsenal is one

of the most important things especially

for a developing actor and by that I

don't mean it in a pjorative way like oh

you're developmental no one cares about

you I mean that you need someone in

court on a day-to-day basis to pitch you

for every opportunity. The marketplace

is not ringing my phone, James' phone,

and Tara's phone in order to try to hire

you. So, you are in this position and

you need to arm us specifically with the

best stuff, the most varied stuff of you

being your best, not your worst. um in a

sort of pathway that is suggestive of

the types of casting that is the center

of mass of what you think that you can

book right now until you're not

developmental anymore and have a little

bit more command of the marketplace.

>> Joe, I saw you were wanting to chime in.

>> Oh, no. It's like that um I do see like

that you know, you know, editorially I

look at it and it's like and it's got to

fulfill certain um you certain

parameters, right, to make to make it

work. like your headshot has to achieve

certain things, your real has to achieve

certain things. Um I I kind of who was

it that said like you know what what

makes you take a movie and he said it

was like three good scenes and no bad

ones. Who was that? You remember that?

Like have you heard that? Uh and and

that's the way I kind of like think of

demo like it's it should all be good and

it should represent you at your

strongest and it's like it's like how do

we make that out of what you out of what

you have? And so uh I you know that's a

I I do I I do feel like like editorially

we should know uh the the structures and

you know the the you know editorial

context and all that kind of stuff and

like that's all stuff we should be able

to bring to it and make it understand

that like the psychology of the reel

that we're putting together not just you

know the form but also like why do you

put one scene first why do you put the

next scene second like right that that

creates a context through justosition

and that has to be understood as an

editor And so you're that's something

that you also have to bring to it

because putting scenes in a certain

order make it make a difference and and

representing the actor in a certain way

makes a difference and and the same

scene the same 10 scenes or that's maybe

a lot same five scenes in a different

order will have a different result and

so you kind of have to know that and you

know it because you understand uh

editing conventions and context.

>> What's the bandwidth you think someone

has to watch a whole reel? It kind of

depends on Oh, just ask me or was it

>> Well, probably more from a casting and

producing directing perspective, you

know. How long are they willing to

watch?

>> I'd say sometimes seconds.

>> Yeah.

>> Like, but let's let's speak to that. So,

so they're going to only look at it as

long as they need to look at it to make

a decision on yes or no.

>> Yep.

>> But as you get further and further in

the process, they ask us for more. So I

have clients who have 20 minute reels

because they have 20 minutes of footage

from eight episodes of work. That's

outstanding. And so when we're moving

into a test phase or trying to convince

people like that somebody can do it,

like I can go out and like here's like

three hours of work that you possibly

haven't seen just because of how much

media there is. Look how incredible they

are. What do else do you need to see?

And sometimes like this year it was like

we need to see him a little bit sexier.

So we're like all right let's let's pull

those photos out. out and it's like he's

sexy too. But it was again it's

as frustrated as we are that it's like

we only need to listen to three to five

seconds that also tells you like how

much somebody knows the project they're

working on. Like I don't have to be in

the room. I can listen to a self tape

and know if it's good.

>> Yeah,

>> I've been in that scenario actually. I I

remember I used to uh work in casting

and one specific casting director would

turn around while the actor was reading

and be like, I can just hear them

telling the truth. And I thought that

was fascinating. So, excellent point

that these buyers, specifically casting

directors, are so entrenched on what it

is that they're looking for that, you

know, they can tell fairly quickly. And

it's a it's an added benefit of

firepower that if you are sitting on

more footage that you know it presuming

you're working with representation

there's like strategic timing on h what

they're seeing and when they're seeing

it.

>> I just love that you're actually getting

feedback and bringing that back to the

actor's portfolio.

Is that difficult to get get that

feedback

>> from who? on from casting producers,

directors get feedback on a particular

actor's profile and what they're

presenting, what their demo reel looks

like, what their clips look like, and

they actually chime in and let you know,

hey, we need to look see them more sexy

or whatever whatever it is. I mean,

speaking to that one specifically,

because of where we were in the test and

we were working with the producers who

had decided they're like, "This is our

cast. give us everything we need to get

them sold to studio and to get them sold

to the network. So that's something that

happens in a like in in that type of

space. But generally if we're getting

auditions for someone that's our

feedback. If a cl like again repeat

business that has to do with the actor

that has to do with the type that also

has to do with their marketing

materials. Like sometimes like for

whatever reason a client's like reel

just isn't working and we'll just go and

be like, "Hey, we have to re-edit this."

Um the nice thing now is a lot of us can

re-edit things. We don't need knowing

that we have like 5 seconds of attention

span. Like I don't necessarily always

need a full demo reel. I can be like I

have this exact clip that's going to

show you exactly what I need or I have

this exact audition that's going to show

you something that they don't have yet.

You know, that's the new thing. That's

the newer part of this space with having

self tapes. It's like yes, we want to be

in the room, but like I can also show

the body of your work that you've also

auditioned for. And I I do have some

management companies that have some of

their clients have maybe an 8 to 10

minute reel, but then they also have

those reels broken up as individual

clips on there's a few different

websites um that do that and they can,

you know, specifically target, you know,

don't watch the real because we want you

to watch, you know, this particular show

where he played the judge or whatever.

So, I think it's hard for an actor to

say, "Well, what if they only watch

three to five seconds of my reel? Like,

what about all this other stuff on the

reel?" And it just depends. Sometimes

they'll watch a four or five minute

reel, and sometimes they'll watch a

10-minute reel if it's something much

more it's a much bigger part. So, it's

kind of hard to say. You just got to put

your best stuff on and hope the order is

right. And you can always do two or

three different versions with different

order. And you know, so

>> Matt, were you about to chime in?

>> I don't know. I think there's a whole

bunch of workshop it.

>> Yeah, there's a whole bunch of nuance to

this because it really depends on who

you are, your position in the

marketplace, the role that you're going

after, and where you are in the casting

process. So, if you're someone who's

blind submitting or being blind

submitted for a role that's an under

five or a small co-star role and they

look at 3 to 5 seconds of your reel,

that's justified because you're probably

going to have three to five seconds

maybe on screen. If we're talking about

who's going to be the lead of the next

Netflix series or HBO series, then

chances are someone like the three of us

have had to have a long conversation and

spun a really beautiful narrative on why

you, who maybe the position in the

marketplace is down here, deserves a

shot at something that's going to

potentially change anyone's life who

gets it, but especially yours. And the

delta between the two is the the ground

that we have to sort of climb in order

to make you viable for that role. So, if

we're sitting over here, and I'm

pointing at him because we used to work

together. Um, if we're

leaving I'm glad you clarified things.

>> If we if we sort of sit on the phone

with casting directors and we've spun

this beautiful tale about how you did

this and this and this and your

education and the class that you're in

and we have their sort of the momentum

for them to watch exactly what we send

to them, they'll hit play on whatever we

send to them. Yeah.

>> So, for me, it's it just better be

really effing good

>> and and it better be towards the role

that we are aspiring and trying to get

and sort of weave. And so

>> agreed,

>> it's hard for me to say like a cart

blanch sort of you need this and this

and this and this and this and that's

why I sort of said you need everything

so that we have the ability to pick and

choose exactly what we think could be

good for that role at that period of

time based on where you are in the

casting process.

>> Okay. So, you know, actors that have you

folks in their corner, you know, they

could be considered very lucky, right?

And some people don't have reps, right?

and you're submitting yourself and they

don't have someone to pitch for them or

they have a rep that just isn't pitching

and they the actor is doesn't know that

they're not getting pitched. Right. Show

of hands experience this. Okay. Yeah.

I'm speaking to your heart now on that

one. Right. So on that note, how long

would you give your current material

on whatever platform like Actors Access

for example before you would switch it

out?

And then is there a way to sort of get

it checked or get feedback or do you

have any notes on that or any thoughts

about what could be potentially tweaked

or just just advice that ethicacy of

your self tapes or the self tapes or

auditions that you're submitting and you

have representation. You don't need to

look any further. About 10 years ago

when self taping became the majority of

the pre-ereads that sort of uh casting

process sort of took over. You guys got

an immediate casting director with

immediate immediate casting feedback. I

think we spend the first couple hours of

our day watching self takes and takes of

our clients and their work. We know

exactly what we're sending in. Whereas

10 years ago, you would just get a call

from your client after they walked out

and say, "Oh my god, I did such an

amazing job." And then you would call

the casting director who you knew

because of the 8 to 10 hour workday. And

they would only see people every 20

minutes exactly how many people they saw

that day and win. And so when I got to

get on the phone with that casting

director and hear she went to their

notes and said, "Oh, Angela, she did

such a good job, but she missed a beat

on scene two, that was the tangible

feedback I could call my clients and

give them." And it was incredibly

validating in certain ways because they

had that, oh, this is what the decision

maker, the gatekeeper said about my work

in that specific day. Now you, the first

line of defense is, are you turning in?

And there's a there's this crazy amazing

Australian agent and I love and he's

very old school and he used to say at

the very beginning of my career he said

every audition needs to grab you by the

eyeballs because if you're hitting play

and your representative who wants you to

get the job who wants it to be amazing

because he or she has signed you and

wants you to be that person who you guys

both have aspired to be. If they hit

play and aren't excited about what

you've done and they represent you and

potentially make 10%. Then your

feedback, if you don't get anything from

your reps, is probably it wasn't an

amazing tape.

Sorry. And I would add uh for those that

don't have representation, I think uh

you should have somewhere in your

circle, in your network, a handful of

people who you whose taste you highly

regard, highly respect. Ideally, they

have a vantage point that's

uh that makes sense uh for them to be

reviewing your materials and make sure

that it speaks to them. So, like for

example, for those of you that are

submitting on Actors Access and LA

casting, if you're not getting traction

there, that's kind of a starting point.

You know, it also it also is dependent

on what you're submitting on. Um, but be

sure that you are if you can't get the

kind of feedback that you can get from a

working professional being your

representative that somewhere in your

network you've cultivated that and I'd

say at least three to five people and

truly dig into that work and say what's

the feedback here? Would you watch this

as a filmmaker, as a casting director,

as a producer, as a as an as a fellow a

working actor? Like what do you think?

>> Yeah, that's amazing tip. I'm actually

going to turn to Joe and and um

>> Paul

>> Paul about No, I got you

>> uh on this one first. Let's talk about

length and let's talk about where you

cut in and potentially start a reel or a

clip, you know, is it the climactic

scene part of the scene or you know

where would you start and how long would

a demo reel be and how much how long

would a clip be? I think we both

probably have varied takes on that, but

>> Great.

>> Yeah.

>> Usually if you for me, if I've got about

a four minute reel with maybe six or

seven pieces, that's kind of good. If

you get the best 30 to 40 seconds of a

scene, I'm not into these one minute

montagey kind of reels where you can't

tell what the hell it was. But if you

you don't start right at the most

critical crying part of a dramatic

scene, but you have a little bit of a

build and you get out of it way before

the end of that moment, right when it

kind of peaks, go into something funny.

Um, you can tell by watching stuff where

you've seen enough. It's usually around

30 to 40 seconds. What do you think,

Joe? Somewhere in there.

>> Yeah, that's typically a sweet spot. 30

to 40 seconds. I mean, sometimes it can

go up to a minute. It really does depend

on the scene.

>> Great. Yeah. I mean, yeah,

>> but you also, you know, this is also

like the at the end product, right? When

you've pulled out all the other actors

as much as possible, you know, you leave

them for structural support. You can't

they have to,

>> you know, you have they have to say

stuff to you. Acting is reacting, right?

>> Jump cuts.

>> No. Yeah. No jump cuts. I've seen those

before. People jump cut reels or But

it's like I always um start with the

strongest thing. You have You kind of

have to You just have to start with your

strongest thing. And I I usually kind of

like a process like the first one is the

strongest and then I usually like to

find something that's good that

juxtaposes the first one and kind of

create some range right away. If you got

like you know an interrogation scene

followed by another interrogation scene,

we haven't really learned that much

about you. There may be nuances in those

two scenes but it's like one after the

other just feels like too much. if you

can vary like drama and comedy like at

least in in a certain tone that tends to

be that tends to be good and it keeps

the the the watcher going uh and and it

keeps it uh interesting and so

ultimately it's like I'm not super I

don't care that much about the overall

length of a reel as long as the scenes

themselves are tight and you get in and

out you know you start on you end on you

as much as possible you know you keep

the scenes tight you keep them moving um

because the truth is as the you know the

our managers have already said it's

they're gonna stop watching when they

want to stop watching. There's really

every reel is a speedre unfortunately.

Uh because they'll just be they're done

when they're done. And so it's like if

you are watching um you know so the more

you can hook them in with this thing

that like moves the better off you are.

I mean that said it's like you know

don't be crazy. I mean it's like you

don't necessarily like sometimes they'll

see if they see like a 10-minute run

time they might be like you know it's

like uh like the and not just because

they think you don't have 10 minutes of

good material but because they're like

well

>> it's annoying that you do that.

>> Yeah. And it's also like you haven't

edited the scenes down is probably what

they think, right? Because like it's so

long because you've just you've got like

three minute long scenes in there, which

is tends to be what happens. I mean, we

were talking about before about how

length is like I did a real for Brian

Cox once, right? It's like 12 minutes

long. Don't do that. That's not for

everybody, right? It's

but but you know, it was for him for his

purposes. So,

>> I was going to say though, so one thing

with that though, so when we're editing,

like yes, you want things to move along,

but don't lose the breathing of the

scene.

>> Like so often it's like I just cut cut

and I'm like the breathing is what

really makes your work sing, especially

like if you get that opportunity. Of

course, if you're doing, you know, a

guest star or a co-star and you're just

facilitating things, there's not going

to be that breathing room. You can you

can make it a little bit more your scene

without making it look super obvious.

Sometimes you're like, "Oh, they're the

most important person in Castle." Oh

god, that's a really dated reference.

Um,

>> it's not so bad.

>> I didn't even watch that show. That's

bad.

>> Oh my god, that was like year one.

>> I think Hard Castle and McCormick would

be a more of a dated reference. Castle's

not so bad. I'd still put a Castle on a

real if

>> I don't even know why that one came out.

But again, if you if you look like the

star in a show that's like and you've

got like three lines, it's like maybe

they cut that creatively. But don't miss

out on the opportunities where the the

work can breathe and that sl like

sometimes you're like is it boring

sometimes? But sometimes it's really

deep and you're like whoa look what they

did in that. Um but I mean

>> I would agree with that,

>> right? Like it's we love it when we have

that. Now is that fun to watch? Like

sometimes like there's something to be

said with like kind of what I do is I'm

like if I'm bored I'm done. So like when

I'm editing I'm like I'm bored and I'm

bored and I'm bored and it's really sad

that my attention span is that short

because that's

>> I think everyone's is.

>> Yeah.

>> It's bad. It's just like you know like

and I do that in reading. I do that in

everything in TV watching but like

editors now what you have to cut like I

was watching fences and I was like wow I

forgot what it was like to have a scene

that didn't have montages connecting it

keeping my my my brain like engaged. I

was like wow I forgot about this. I had

this great client named David Klennon

who I'm still working with and he uh he

had had an episode of Barney Miller this

really he used to recur his different

characters on Barney Miller and he had

this one scene is Jesus and the scene

was four minutes long and there was no

edits in it. It was just ensemble the

cast were just [ __ ] brilliant fish

all these guys you know and it they so

back in the day it was different.

Nowadays, you kind of got to

>> keep it cutting a bit. But I agree with

you. If there's a good moment to hold

on, it's that's on your client. Yeah.

Hold on it for a little bit.

>> I think it's a matter of taste and what

the production is, who shot it. I mean,

if it's like if it's like a scene out of

a Chris Nolan film and you're driving

the scene, you probably want to let that

scene cook, you know, two, three, four

minutes, whatever. Uh, I'm very much a

fan of uh I like footage from each

project. I'll make a demo reel depending

on market position of that actor. But if

they have the credits and they've been

leads or they've had really strong

supporting scenes, I like having footage

from each project to show dynamic to

show arc. Um it is interesting on the

cutting 30 45 seconds. I think again

that's a it's a point of view. It's a

matter of taste. You know does the scene

have we gotten enough out of scene

because you know depending who directed

the scene the beats might be repeating.

It's really you really need to assess

like if the scene is just beautifully

executed beginning middle end you

you know, I I would encourage you to

probably keep that scene particularly if

you're driving it or if it's a great

tennis match between you and the other

actor.

>> I would say those are averages 30, 40,

right? Because I agree with what you're

saying because it's like reals are

decontextualized by nature, right? You

as actors cannot earn in a demo reel

what you earn in a show. You cannot get

that dramatic moment at the end of it

that like brings everything to a to to a

to a point that like you you've earned

something. All you can do is say, "Do I

believe this?" That's all that you can

get across in a demo reel. You can't

earn anything. So, as a result of that,

"Do I believe this scene?" And if I have

a scene that needs to be slow and I've

cut it fast, I don't believe it anymore.

And so, you have to like kind of let

those things breathe and make it work.

And these are, you know, it's it it's

contingent on what the material is,

right? But um and and that's why, you

know, having edited for a long time is

helpful, right? Because I can get the

sense of what can come out and what

can't, you know? And I edit TV shows

during the day, right? That's like my my

main gig. And it's like even then it's

like we're always like pulling stuff out

like with, you know, very seasoned

showrunners and very seasoned like, you

know, people directors and we're like,

let's see what this looks like when we

pull this out. We're like, okay, that

can that scene can live without that

beat. and then another one you're like,

"Nope, couldn't." Right? So, that's the

stuff that you have to figure out as you

go along.

>> What if an actor has a credit for

something, but they did not get their

footage? Does that directly impact their

portfolio that they're presenting?

Because you said you would love to have

footage from everything that's on their

resume in their reels and clips, but

what if they didn't get footage? I mean,

is that frowned upon or looked at?

>> Was it good?

>> Do we want it?

But but in in all seriousness

people don't do you mean they didn't get

the footage they were cut out of the

show or they just never could get a hold

of a cop

>> or both or both.

>> Well if they're cut out of it that's up

to them tough editor and director and

stuff like that. And it's possible a lot

of times clients of mine have been able

to get footage

>> or it used to be in the old days you

would wait for it to be out on DVD and

you would wait for the deleted scenes

and then you could do that. But they

don't do that anymore.

>> I got some unaired footage for a clan. I

mean, excuse me. It was an unaired pilot

and we were able to get the footage, but

that was just making a call to the

producers to get it.

>> That's the only way to do that.

>> Yeah. If it's streaming somewhere

sometimes, like I have a client that's

in Australia and we were having a tricky

time getting access to where it was

airing, but someone knows where to get

that. So, I just knew where to make the

call to pull that.

>> Probably a little bit more for like

indie projects and and and maybe student

films and people starting out. sell it

as a second coming,

>> you know,

>> until it comes out. That's it's like you

you might have two scenes in something,

but I sell it as like the greatest indie

that's ever been developed and I'm like,

look how amazing they are. I'm like,

>> again, I think the most important thing

is is are you incredibly good in it or

does it show like your voice, your

essence, and your your sort of artistry

through this work? Whether it's a

student film, whether it's like a like a

short scene, whether it's three minutes

on a Nolan film, the most important

thing is that when you convince someone

to hit play, that it shows exactly who

you want out there in the marketplace.

So, I don't care as much if you're

bartender number six on 14 things in a

row and your resume looks like an

impressive sort of monster of momentum

because eventually I'm not going to be

able to pitch a demo reel of six seconds

clips of you asking if you want a cherry

in the drink or not.

>> Like, you're going to eventually have to

like level up. And then sometimes it's

it's way more beneficial to send what

what I call like internal momentum and

external momentum. So external momentum

is the thing that everyone sees. It's

the TV shows, the films, the the sort of

u material that gets exhibited for the

the audience. Internal momentum is the

stuff that we use to say this person

just tested for this show. He or she

didn't get it, but look at the audition

that they did to impress HBO, CBS, uh

Warner Brothers, whatever it is. They

want to watch that piece of content even

though it's not produced. And what I

would say is you should treat that stuff

as special as potentially some of the

credits that have showed your external

momentum because for us and the buyers

and the sort of sellers that we sort of

deal with on a day-to-day basis, they'll

take that more seriously as long as

you're presenting it with the level of

intentionality that it is.

>> That's fine if you've got a manager that

sets that up. But if you're doing a demo

reel and it's all just auditions, people

aren't going to know if what you know

you just were at home shooting

auditions. So that's that's what I want

to transition.

>> And I do think that it's auditions.

>> I'm not saying you shouldn't use pieces

of self tapes in reals. I use them all

the time and there there's some great

moments. But

>> without someone behind the scenes

saying, "Oh, this was just watched by

some producer in HBO. It's got to just

be its own true moment of work and it

could have just been you shooting it in

your garage." So

>> yeah, it needs to stand out on its own.

And again, like to use the word taste

again, like really getting, you know, I

call it like your advisory board if you

don't have representation, like these

people really need to give you that

feedback and say if you were getting

this cold, would you be of interest?

Would you be intrigued? Would you want

to meet this person, call this person

in? Um, interestingly, I had a a meeting

with a British actor. Uh, he was

actually lead of a show, but the show

hadn't come out yet, so he had no

footage yet really. and uh he his agent

sent a monologue tape and it was

actually edited and it was fascinating.

I think he must have used two or three

cameras. So, it started off wide and it

reminded me of like I think what some

casting directors at least back in the

day used to do uh where they'd start

maybe more 3/4 and then as a scene

starts to reach its apex, you know, if

this is a meaty scene, they move into a

close-up. And so he he cut into a

close-up. Again, this was a monologue

and I was like, "Okay." Like usually

it's tricky me watching a monologue on

camera. You know, I like to experience

things like that on stage, but it just

kind of reminded me of how you can

without representation get dynamic on

your own and make something

interesting that speaks on your ha

behalf. I think that's another word that

floats around in our business a lot, you

know, outside of the other adjectives I

know get used, but interesting is one of

them. And it's like what's something

that makes that would make someone

curious about you? And sometimes, you

know, I I can't get this quote out of my

head that Matt just said about this

agent being me like it's got to grab you

by your eyeballs. I I feel that way,

too. I cuz it's it's it's you how you're

presenting yourself, but also I get I

get taken in by like lighting and is

there grain on the film? If it's shiny,

does this work with the material you're

doing? It's kind of the whole

presentation. At the end of the day,

we're we're in a, you know, a very

visual business. So like it's you being

interesting as well as just kind of the

overall picture. So yeah, all this to

say with regards to self tapes and

things, I I personally

in my perspective, I I don't like a a

demo reel of just self tapes, but I do

believe in self tapes on their own in

that, you know, again, if you're looking

for representation, you can at least

take some creative liberties in terms of

like if you're going to shoot in your

garage, please use an interesting

background. Please make sure you're

you're lit in a way that is flattering

for you and

>> and especially the sound.

>> And the sound needs to be crisp. We need

to hear your words. We shouldn't be

having to lean in or have to rely on

headphones to hear your sound. Again,

all these things, run it past your

advisory board. Make sure it's it hits

A's with everyone.

>> I think that's a great idea. And I and I

do think that probably at least 50% of

the time when I finished a reel, it goes

through a group of friends, obviously

the agent and the manager. But not only

that, two or three trusted friends, and

then we'll always go back and do some

revisions, either they're minor or

switching the sequence of things or a

little bit of a trim here and there. But

you can't nail it the very first time

you finish a reel. You got to show it to

some people and get some feedback.

That's really important. I I think this

is all really important to bring up

because we have actors that are ranging

from just starting out to seasoned and

some of the actors that are either just

starting out or they're frustrated

because they're still developmental

is the budget because you're spending

money on shooting reels or you know edit

and then editing and then the upload

cost to your profiles. So being able to

streamline and be picky and figure out

exactly what you need to do because

sometimes an actor's budget is not that

big. So to that note, um what what are

the most important things that should be

up there? Are there most common roles?

Like let's say you're just starting out

and you're you're wanting to get that

co-star role as the bartender or the

waiter or the what or a doctor or a

nurse or a lab tech or any of those.

What are the most common things of all

those particular archetypes that should

be on an actor's profile who's really

trying to break into to those beginner

roles,

>> the exact type of casting that they

want? So if you uh went to med school

and dropped off at dropped out after two

years because you wanted to sort of

pursue acting or or this type of

artistry and you know that you are going

to be able to artificially compete at a

much higher level than the average

person trying to sort of spew medical

jargon in a way that people who might

not have had that sort of formal

education would. Then the easiest way to

pierce through the noise of the

difficulty of our marketplace right now

is exactly with that. So understand who

you are right now and then of course as

your career continues to grow as you

move through the developmental phase of

your actor or as as your career you can

start to expand the field of view of how

the marketplace starts to see you but

don't try to go hey I can do this this

this this and this great but what are

you best at right now and then like a

trunk of a tree you can start to branch

off but what's the trunk and make sure

that when whatever whether you're

submitting to representation or casting

or self-submitting that you're making

sure that people see you for your

superpower, for like what you are

amazing at and that you know that if

you're in that casting room or doing a

tape and that you're sort of looking to

the left and to the right of you that

you've got that X factor over everyone

else and then say it with your chest and

then put it on tape and then send it to

whomever and and then what I would say

from just earlier real quick is like

don't divorce yourself from the

responsibility of marketing yourself. We

were talking earlier about the

importance of business and marrying the

art and business. And until you have

someone who is willing to take 10% of

your business to take over these roles,

you need to be in charge of it yourself.

So, if you're not banging down doors or

if you're not trying to take time during

acting class to get these scenes on

tape, like how many of you have an

iPhone or a phone that has a camera?

>> The barriers of entry for our business

have have never been lower. And while we

were sort of complaining earlier about

how casting, you know, gets all of these

tapes, that means that they're looking

at least at 5 seconds for for you and

your work. And so you have

opportunities, but it's much harder to

get. So you've got to be ravenous and in

your sort of desire to want to break in.

And for those people who are, it's never

been more equitable.

>> So yeah.

>> So then that footage shot on an iPhone

is good enough

>> to me. So, um, I'll add to that. So, we

work so like I know how hard you guys

work to get a demo reel and to get and

like to get a student film, which

they're student films and sometimes

they're great and sometimes they're just

I don't know how they pass the class,

you know, at USC. I'm like, "Oh, bless

you guys. That's a really expensive

spend."

>> Who were your parents?

>> I know. I was like, "Woo!" Um, but put

together the best demo reel you can. But

here's the thing with you can send me

tapes of you working on on on like doing

a self tape, do a monologue, do

something, show me what you can do. And

oftentimes I will ask or if you don't

have it, I'll send you sides because I'm

like, there's something here. I don't

immediately know who you are right now.

I think you might be this

>> and I will send that to see if you've

got it because like again, like none of

us are ever signing, but we're kind of

always looking. It's like like dogs.

You're never ever looking for a dog, but

you kind of end up finding dogs and then

and you love them. Like how did I end up

with a parrot

and a tortoise? So like I end up with

Anyway, so we're always like we love you

guys so much. So, if your demo reel

isn't quite getting it done, it doesn't

all like depend on a demo reel anymore

because again speaking to barriers to

entry, like you can be creative, but

definitely like watch TV, watch films,

see what's being made. Like when

Portlandia was coming out, everybody was

like, I love Portland and I'm like

seeing all these tapes for Portland.

Like guys, there's only one, you know,

and there's there's not a hundred roles

that are going to be series rags on

that. Like, you'd love it, but like

definitely like know where you fit in

the market. Also be really true to your

like really understand where you are in

the market and not who you want to be.

Like so often I have people who come in

and they're like their whole entire

career is this really greatlooking like

super cleancut approachable and then

they walk in they're like I want to I

want to do drug rolls. I'm like that's

going to be hard. You know I had one

client who came in with dreadlocks but

his entire career was suits and lawyers.

Like, dude, I will sell you in this, but

they're not going to buy you in that. A,

like, that's a separate conversation

because they should, but the other but

in terms of where the market is, you're

going to go out for the drugy guys and

you're really not that guy. Like, and I

hate this and we'll make the we we'll do

the fight. But anyway, just know who you

are and and market yourself in the best

way possible.

>> Embrace being typ cast is good.

>> Also, we only get 10%. You guys still

have to do 90. Like that doesn't mean

like don't do anything. My reps have to

do everything. If nothing's happening,

it's because of my reps. I'm like you

guys are also helping us. Like who you

meet, who you've had lunch with, who you

happen to bump into and you're like,

"Hey, wow. I kind of ran into this

person and they did actually like me."

You know, those things are helpful.

>> I've seen you but I've actually like

seen this. I'm thinking like I have a

client like a longtime client who didn't

want to embrace the type casting. He

kept getting cast as a thug, right? And

so his reel was like a bunch of thugs.

And then at some point he goes, "No, I

want to go a new direction." And it's

like, "Let's re-edit this reel." And we

re-edited re his reel and it definitely

took his career a new direction. He

didn't work at all. Um

and and so and so we were like, "Okay,

maybe we need to go back to this." And

what was the key for him to to get the

thug role on like a big show? That's

what it was. It he he leaned into it

until he got the big show. And actually

now his career he's doing all kinds of

roles. He managed to break out of it but

he had to get to that level first and

once he had that credit he was able to

he it enabled him to do some other kind

of stuff. So he was able to do it but it

kind of took leaning into it first. And

you know, I know I was saying earlier

this is a very visual business, but uh

the way that I work and Matt was

speaking to this as well earlier. Uh I

believe we I believe very much strongly

in what someone's essence is and like

that is what's undeniably you. No matter

how much you try to dress or change

something up, uh someone can just have

edge

in a suit, like they're the person that

is going to hit you, you know, boiler

room style or, you know, or they just

have something about them and that's

interesting. So, again, going back to

like what's interesting when you're like

putting together that material. Um,

I think there's a way to strategically

set yourself up so you're not just

so that you're not boxing yourself in

too much. I think if you focus on making

your material, your demo reels or your

self tapes lean into what truly your

essence is. Again, something else your

advisory board can weigh in on. How do

you see me? what do you think, you know,

when you first met me, what was my

energy? You know, what would what were

you where would you see me at? And just

take a poll and then be like, okay,

what's a what's an elevated way of

presenting this? There is a very you can

always do straightforward and I get it.

Like sometimes you just want an end and

you're like, can you just see me as the

doctor or as the nurse or as the cop?

But you we have to give credit to the to

the buyers and particularly the casting

directors that hire you. They're very

creative people. they can see something.

Their job is to see you for who you are

and what where they think you can

authentically live in some of these

parts before you can get to a place of

actually being like well I actually have

range. So I I just I I would encourage

you all to those who don't have

representation yet are like you know

taking those strides like be thinking a

lot about um where your essence sits if

especially if you're thinking okay I

really want to break out into a a

network procedural or um I want to break

in I I'm I I I belong in the YA space.

Okay. But okay, so what is kind of your

core personality and how does that kind

of interestingly translate in the

material that you have to present

>> and it's not bad if you're not something

like I have never been called chill in

my life

and and so it's like when an actor comes

up and tries to say like oh I can do

this this this and I was like not from

any of the experiences I've ever had

with

>> Yeah. But like ball buster in charge is

an energy.

>> That's not bad though. So it will reduce

the amount of opportunities that I'll

have if they find out that I'm not chill

it's no closer and closer to making sure

that the opportunities that you're

getting are more aligned with the things

that you're going to book which is good.

>> What about the age of clips? Let's say

for example, you are usually that

ballbuster take charge leader type

character as a lawyer and a doctor and a

nurse and you know running the lab or

whatever, but you have stuff that is

older but it's so good. You know what?

How old is it before it's not good to

use anymore?

>> I think Hollywood has such an amazing

recency bias that I actually do have a

pretty strong opinion on this. I think

that you have to lead with the thing

that's the most recent and impactful.

>> 100% agree.

>> Yeah, you have to definitely lead with

the new stuff, but you got to [ __ ]

Seinfeld oop, excuse my language, tag

the end of the reel with it. I mean, if

there's certain shows I think that are

timeless shows that are okay to keep on

towards the end of reels, but don't put

them near the beginning because you were

on an episode of Seinfeld. You know,

that's just goes as a button at the very

end of a you got to put the new stuff

right at the top. I I always tell

people, can they hire this person?

>> That's that's the that's the the answer

to me is like, how old can they hire

this person? I mean, if if you don't

look like this anymore, you probably

shouldn't do it. And if you have

Seinfeld on

>> that's the barometer.

>> That's it. If you don't if that person

can't be hired anymore, why is this

person on your reel? Like you you are

now a different person, right? Um, I

have I have put people like like when

it's Seinfeld or something like that,

you put it on like I've put it on like a

historical reference like I'll did a

I've did a reel for like Bruce McIll,

right, who was on um Animal House. That

clip that Animal House clip is still at

the end of his reel, but it's just for

fun.

>> That's exactly

>> right. I I you know, um it's just for um

I'm trying to think I've done a couple

of those where it's like I like big

actors from um Adrien Barbau. I did a

real for for her, right? We have some

stuff at the end of hers from like

Escape from New York and stuff like

that, but it's historical reference.

It's not higher, you know, 1977 Adrien

Barau.

>> No, exactly. Yeah, but it's

entertainment at the end of a real and

shows historicity.

But yeah, you can't put it near the top.

That would just be sad. And you I was

going to add so not just the the a like

a recency bias but also our our

technology has changed so much. So what

used to look good like 10 years ago you

have to update your footage now. So

always when you're grabbing real grab

the highest quality version that you can

possibly get. It'll still probably suck

in 5 years but you're going to get more

mileage out of it than if you grab it at

like 720. Cuz 720 like a year and a half

from now is not going to be the same

720. You know what else though? On that

same token, sometimes a show like ER or

something gets remastered and it looks

amazing and then it's like a show a clip

that you thought you didn't didn't look

usable anymore. Now it is. You just like

>> you still look like that

>> and you still look like that. Right. But

I've I've seen that happen plenty of

times when stuff gets up to like 4K or

HD or something like where it wasn't

before. You're like, "Oh my gosh, look

at that." Like we can actually use this.

>> Yeah. So it can

>> I mean we've done that with clients who

have like careers expand 20 years and

we're showing the breadth and the depth

of their work. We'll have them go and

get everything like redone and like hey

go go pull the the 4K or the 1080 or

whatever on it so we have it again for

those situations when I have to have as

much tape as I possibly can to have as

big of an arsenal great word that I can

possibly have to get my client what they

want. So, if I'm trying to push him over

the edge for a series RG, if I'm trying

to push him over the edge for, you know,

a lead in a feature film or or whatever,

I'm going to use everything I possibly

can find to get it done.

So, a lot of you have mentioned focus in

terms of what are you good at or what

what are you right now? The the

requirement has been always have a a

comedic reel and a dramatic reel. So,

I'm speaking specifically to that,

right? Is that still sort of the

requirement is to make sure you have a

comedic reel and a dramatic reel and

whatever your type casting is right now

in both of those spaces,

>> I would say. So I like I've had actors

that I've pitched that have only had

drama and the casting director is like I

think they're great, but can they do

comedy? Um, so I would say so and

obviously some dramatic scenes might

have some levity to them or feel comedic

or darkly comedic and you know I think

that can go either or. I think it's is

it truly funny? You know if it's if it

actually makes people laugh if your

advisory board thinks it's hilarious

then by all means like put that on your

comedic footage. But yeah I I'd say keep

the two separate just for efficiency

purposes. You're submitting to

representation. That's how I'm going to

look at it and kind of assess, you know,

how where your skill set is.

>> Were you about to chime in?

>> No, I mean I I I know I have done many

general reels that have both. They're

the most fun to do obviously because

they show the most range and then you

also have a drama reel and a comedy

reel. Um, but I think that when I've

seen people when I just look them up on

IMDb, like a new client of mine, they

just have one reel that pops up. That's

oftentimes both things to put together

because they're no one that's on IMDb is

going to want to go through that thing

that says videos and click on that and

then go to look at different things.

They're just going to see whatever pops

up. So I think if you have one that can

you can mix it together and make it

fairly short

>> to be important to do.

>> To be frank sometimes you don't have the

material to sport two reels.

>> So you just have one good general reel

and that's going to work better. I mean

it's going to work better for you than

it's like just trying to like extract

something that doesn't necessarily work.

So, I mean, a lot of clients that I have

can't really put two good separate reels

together like that. If you can, that's

great and it's worthwhile if you

>> So, on that note, in a clip versus a

real, are you just going to have one

scene of you as a lawyer or or for

example, or are you going to take three

examples of three different times you

played a lawyer in a clip because you're

pitching that client to play a lawyer on

a show? So, I'm just using that as an

easy example.

>> You got to use what you have, right?

Okay.

>> So, if you've played a lawyer three

times, you're clearly pretty good at

legal jargon. You're pretty you that

that whippy snappy back and forth gotcha

sort of moment. And so, that could

constitute real. But if you're if you're

trying to get something different and

you only have the one thing, then that's

what you need to use. But I'm I'm a I'm

a clip person. Um, I think that the

clips that you send create a real sort

of in the buyer's mind of who you are.

And so, uh, I would rather send, hey,

this is a real from something that's 10

years ago that's pretty iconic that they

were amazing in, but here's a self tape

from something that they got a call

back. They met Ben Stiller on. They did

this. They did that. to try to create

that kind of uh energy around getting

them to watch it because that whether it

was a self tape or whether it was

something you put together in your

garage is going to be the thing that's

going to be a little bit easier to try

to get someone to engage on you and your

material.

>> Yeah. I'm I'm just saying I wasn't sure

if you we really answered your question

and I don't really know the answer to

that question. If you have like a lawyer

clip, you know, and a doctor clip that

has one or two quick pieces from other

shows put together. I always thought

that a clip was just one particular

thing, but I'm not sure about that.

That's a good sort of

>> I mean, the perspective may be that you

just think of like, oh, okay, this is my

lawyer clip and it's one scene and

here's an example of me being a lawyer

and you just pick your best one,

>> right? You know,

>> that's what I normally have thought

like this idea for me. Yeah, I would say

choose the best one, too. I I I can

definitely see Matt's perspective in it,

especially

>> if maybe they're all three very strong,

but I again, I would take it a step

further and be like, are you repeating

the same beat? If it's like three of the

same like scenes where you're like

counter you're cross-examining someone,

it's like

>> again, think about does someone want to

watch you do this three times versus

like one's cross-examination, one's like

going back and forth with a colleague,

one's like, you know, you're you're

consulting with your client, you know,

then sure, you're you're an attorney,

but now we're getting to see just

different beats, different sides of your

range,

>> and then clearly they're experienced at

being an attorney. So that sort of

>> I once did a really great clip that was

just a legal clip where someone played

all the different part. They were the

judge, the attorney, and the witness and

they asked themselves questions and they

>> as a as a as a clip universe. Wait, as a

clip or as a real?

>> That's just a fun little It was a clip

we did. It's just more like for

entertaining.

>> That probably has more views than that

person's real.

>> Yeah, that's so interesting. Okay, one

final question, then we're going to open

it up to Q&A. Uh, slate shots. Does

everybody remember Slate Shots

requirements on Actors Access where you

have a clip that's attached to your head

shot and the the the uh the word on the

street is like that filters my my

audition up higher to the top. What's

everyone on this panel's perspective on

that who wants to chime in on this?

>> Well, they know I have a strong opinion

on this.

>> Yes. And I want

>> tested the waters and they're like,

"Hey, we might ask about this." like I

have a very very strong opinion here. Uh

so we at my company we don't use slate

shots. It's not how we market our

actors. Um we have actually found we

signed a client the client had slate

shots for every single photo they had.

They had a lot of photos and the moment

we took their slate shots down we could

get them out. Before that they were

hardly going out. And when I was talking

with a friend of mine in casting, I was

like, "Hey, when you're looking through

submissions, are you looking at reels or

are you looking at slake shots?" And

they're like, "Oh, it just depends.

Sometimes I'll pull a slake shot and

sometimes I will pull a real

generally speaking, most of your work is

well, I really hope it's better than a

slate shot.

I just really do." So, um, and and as

far like I'm just gonna also speak to

the algorithm. Like

no one got

no one booked this the lead on a series

from a slave shot. I'm sorry. It's just

never happened. Like it that that

ignores every person who made calls.

That ignores your work. That ignores all

the great things that you did. Like that

like the algorithm isn't what makes this

happen. Yes, it can definitely like get

you up there, but I certainly again, we

had clients on our ro two maybe. And

we're like, get rid of those things

quickly. It's not how we market them.

It's not how we position you. We didn't

personally find it to be like super

helpful. So, like, and if I'm sending

you in for a comedy or like it's a

drama, but I needed somebody with some

energy and so you're smiley and you do a

multicam slate for a drama, I'm like, I

just shot myself in the foot, you know?

like I don't need that. I've got your

work.

>> I would just say as just a counterpoint

to that, um it's an opportunity to show

your personality. And if you go over the

top, of course, it's going to be cheesy

and it's going to be bad. But let's say

you're auditioning for like True

Detective or something and and the tone

of that is very dark and very grim and

you have this uh interrogation scene or

something and then at the very end of

it, because we're no longer in the room

as much as we used to, it's not like

you're walking into the room, you're

warming up, you're shaking everyone's

hand, you're saying hi. they get to see

the natural energy and essence that we

all care about so much and then you drop

into the character in the work. That's

the one 4 second opportunity at the end

of something to kind of give it to them.

And so I think as like a slate shot as

something that's generic that that is

like uh at the end of every sort of

audition that gets tagged on probably I

I completely agree with you. But if it

is sort of an opportunity at the end of

a big audition that you're really proud

of and you want to sort of show a

different angle um to in an organic

authentic way, I think it's kind of a

positive thing. I've had people not not

definitely not book jobs, but definitely

be like, "Oh, they're that too." And

then it kind of shows the range of that

person.

>> Do you mean as a slate as opposed to a

slate shot, right?

>> Yeah. Okay.

>> Yes.

>> Okay.

>> So, break down slate shot. They click on

the picture and a video comes up and

you're like, "Hey, my name is Terra

Wild."

>> Oh, no, no, no.

>> Yeah,

the horror

>> I would agree. I um

>> it's my the way I like to market my

actors. Uh I like to sell less is more

sometimes. Create some intrigue. Who are

you? How can we get them to know you?

There's who they're getting to know in

your work. Sometimes I think a slate

might do more than what is needed or

have casting get to a quick decision and

be like, "Oh yeah, maybe not." Um, so I

agree with Matt in that, uh, yeah, I've

had some, you know, and and it has to be

done in good taste, but I've had some

actors find clever ways to button their

audition to say just in case you needed

to see a little something else in this

character, you do that in your slate.

that is at the tail end of an audition.

>> A slate shot, right? That's too

>> But a slate shot for me personally,

yeah, marketing wise, I uh I think it

>> I I it just doesn't allow me to f market

you in a focused way. And I I I don't

respond to them when I when I see them.

>> I love this. You guys

amazing group.

>> All right, let's give them a round of

applause and open it up for Q&A.

[Applause]

[Music]