Reels Expert: I Made $2M With One Video (Steal This Viral Hook!)

Today's guest has mastered the art of short form content.

Not to flex, but I'm pretty good at social media marketing.

Always ahead for her age. She bought her first real estate property at 15 years old, got married at 16, and now at 20, is generating millions of dollars a year on Instagram. So, Ava, you just turned

on Instagram. So, Ava, you just turned 20. How much money did you make last

20. How much money did you make last month?

700K.

In this episode, we'll break down her secrets to achieving consistent virality on social media.

Step one, I would go to the Instagram explore page, type in my niche. I would

say like a hundred videos over a million views.

Unveil the blueprint for becoming the dominant voice in any niche.

Step two, take the hooks from those videos and I would write 30 scripts with those viral hooks, but my own niche expertise and explore the viral secrets top creators don't want you to know.

Step three, I would Jurgens, welcome to the Jack Neil podcast.

Happy to be here.

Awesome. Yeah, Ava just came in uh from Las Vegas. She was at acquisition.com

Las Vegas. She was at acquisition.com workshop with uh Alex and Leila Hermoszi. So yeah, pretty cool to have

Hermoszi. So yeah, pretty cool to have you here. I've was just telling you

you here. I've was just telling you before, I've been a big fan of her content for a while. I think the advice she gives on Instagram is super pertinent for short form content and just seeing her growth. I mean, how many

followers have you gained in the past like two years?

Um my business Instagram is 2 years old, so it's like 0 to 500K on that Instagram. and she also has really uh

Instagram. and she also has really uh good business model that's generated her a lot and she's 20 years old which is very rare to be making uh this kind of money at 20 but we'll get into that. Um

so Ava what's the most amount of money you've made from an Instagram reel.

Um basically how it works just the funnel to explain it. if someone watches a video and at the end of the video I'm

like, "Hey, comment xyz and I will send you information about my service." So,

we had one of our videos where we basically explained how to grow an Instagram from scratch and it got 7.9

million views, 13,000 like leads. And if

people sign up with me, I do like a monthly reoccurring done for you service. They're paying anywhere from

service. They're paying anywhere from 2,000 to 4,000 a month to work with me.

So, we got a lot of clients. Obviously,

not all 13,000 of those comments converted, but we got a lot of clients and I want to say like 2 million in annual revenue from that one video.

Got it. So, you got roughly how many clients from that video? It was about 100 200.

Uh, I want to say 100 something. But,

yeah, they basically turn into reoccurring revenue clients annually.

That'd be 2 million.

Interesting. So that one video, when was that posted?

August of 24.

August 24. Okay. So almost a year ago.

And wow. So from that first video, how long

wow. So from that first video, how long had you been doing Instagram? Uh like

that new brand up until that point. Was

that just a few months in?

Yeah. Oh, that was like a year in. I was

sitting around probably like 100k followers, but that probably bought brought in also like 200k followers and a ton of leads. So that like really really took off. Um the Instagram and

the business.

Now how many clients would you say you service with the business?

Yeah, we service around to say 350 to 400.

Interesting. Okay. And then what do you do for each of those people?

Yeah. So for the done for you service, basically we spend like 10 to 12 hours every single month researching the top performing short form content in that client's niche. And we only work with

client's niche. And we only work with business owners. And then we take that

business owners. And then we take that research and they have to fill out like onboarding documents in the beginning.

And we create viral scripts out of like the viral hooks we researched, the topics that clearly work. And then we just make the value of the video kind of specific to them, what they teach, and

everything. and then they film the

everything. and then they film the videos, we'll take them back, we'll edit them, and then we post them for the client. So, it's like a monthly service

client. So, it's like a monthly service where we're either making 15, 20, or 30 reels for them. And it's like primarily Instagram reels, but we'll also repurpose on like Tik Tok, YouTube

shorts, all the short form platforms. So, essentially, one video converted to about $2 million a year in revenue. Um,

yes. And then from there, you've kind of just been maintaining and growing that amount of clients and trying to scale your systems to service as many people as possible. Like how many people would

as possible. Like how many people would you say are on your waiting list that like you can't service but like you have leads for?

Uh, we actually don't have a waiting list. I'm like we have a ton of SOPs. So

list. I'm like we have a ton of SOPs. So

when we hire someone, we're able to onboard really quickly.

But yeah, we basically just have a ton of SOPs. So, it's not like something

of SOPs. So, it's not like something that we have to build out a weight list for, but we are pretty selective. I

would say we're more selective now than before of just like what niches we work with. Um, just to make sure they're all

with. Um, just to make sure they're all like very solid ones that have grown on social before. So, like personal

social before. So, like personal trainers, dog trainers, or just like any niche that has kind of case studies or social proof that we've already done or just like on social media already that we know can grow.

It's just fascinating. I I just don't understand how you can scale to that many people and maintain quality. Um but

it's obvious that you have because these people stay on recurring revenue. Like

how do you how many employees do you have?

A lot. So we have a mix of 1099 contractors and W2. So it's over 100 right now.

Jesus Christ.

So it's a lot of people.

100 people. Oh my gosh. Um Okay. And

then did you when you first started the business, were you like how many employees did you have before that video took off? Like were you kind of

took off? Like were you kind of scrambling to just fulfill as many people as possible?

It I would say we had like 30, but we were like pretty comfortable then. But

then once that video came out, we had to hire really quickly. But I will say with any agency, like you have to learn to keep quality up at that scale. like it's

definitely been a learning curve and I've definitely made mistakes but I've learned so much and I have obviously so many SOPs now, so many managers in place, uh just so many I guess points to

check quality. But yeah, a lot of

check quality. But yeah, a lot of quality control has been implemented and a lot of just extra positions just to make sure it stays the same because it can get bad really quick if you're not careful.

Yeah, it seems like you're more focused on maintaining the clients that you have than trying to get new ones. Is that the case?

Yes. Uh yeah, for sure now. That's where

I'm at. Uh just trying to retain them as best as possible, get them the best results. Um obviously I want to grow, of

results. Um obviously I want to grow, of course, but it's you got to care more about the clients you have than the clients you can get.

Okay. So Ava, you just turned 20. What

was it? Two months ago, 3 months ago.

Uh March, like end of March. So two

three months. Yeah.

How much money did you make last month?

I want to say 700K.

Oh my god. I'm sorry. It It just throws me off every time people like say these numbers. You made $700,000 last month.

numbers. You made $700,000 last month.

And then are do are your expenses high for your business?

Um I want to say they're a little bit under 50% of revenue. So yeah, I mean that's pretty average for an agency.

Yeah. So you're making $700,000 a month at 20 years old, which is ridiculous. Uh

is like when did this kind of journey start for you? I'd love to just kind of know like the um what were you like in high school? What were you like in

high school? What were you like in middle school? Have you always been a

middle school? Have you always been a scrappy entrepreneur? Um like how did

scrappy entrepreneur? Um like how did you find success at a young age?

Yeah. Um I'm so different from when I was 14, but uh originally like going into high school, all I kind of cared about was like my friends. I had

straight A's. Like I was a good student.

I wanted to be successful, but I probably I didn't really think about being a business owner uh for when I was that age. But then um I don't remember

that age. But then um I don't remember or actually I do. So my social studies teacher when I was 15, he started

talking about Andrew Carnegie and like him just being scrappy and starting his own company and being so successful after being like growing up so poor. He

like it just was so inspirational. So, I

just searched up on Google like how to be successful or something stupid. Uh,

and like the best books to read to be successful. And then that's when Rich

successful. And then that's when Rich Dad Poor Dad popped up. So, then I was 15. I didn't have my license. So, I made

15. I didn't have my license. So, I made my sister drive me to Target after school and I got that book. Um, and then when we got home, my dad was home, which was super weird, but he had like a mask

on and we were like crap. And he had CO.

So, this was like right when the pandemic was starting, but we had to quarantine for a week. So, I was off of school and I read that book probably like 2 days in and I was dating um my

boyfriend at the time. He was my boyfriend Ben and we I made him read it right away and then we were like, "Oh my god, like why wait until we're 18? Why

don't we just start a real estate investing company now?" So, we did, which was so hard to do uh when we were teenagers, but we basically direct mailed. We cold called every day after

mailed. We cold called every day after school uh because we went the offmarket route trying to find properties to do like long-term rental investments. And

eventually after 3 months of doing that every single day, we finally got someone to say yes. And we got a duplex in uh it's like right outside Milwaukee. And

that was our first investment. And then

we kind of did that all throughout of high school um where we got short-term rentals and long-term rentals. Um, but

it was I always say this, but like real estate's pretty miserable because like you're talking to people on the phone who like you're trying to get them to like sell you their house.

Yeah.

And they like hate you obviously. Like

you get called a vulture, you get screamed at and like it's just not fun.

Um, but after high school, so I graduated after my junior year, I just went full-time into real estate and I started posting just short form content on social media about it and just being

young in business and like as a teenager in real estate. And like within the first month, I got like 50,000 followers just from posting short form content.

And then I just realized it was so much better than real estate. And I was like, "Wow, I could probably do this for other business owners." because building your

business owners." because building your personal brand back in 2022 when I graduated, that's when it's like really started kicking off and became like a like the term personal brand. So, I

started doing that for other people and just cold outreaching with like my Instagram account um just to business owners I saw online and I got a few

clients and I kind of started off just like editing for them uh just the shorts but then that eventually turned into me starting my business Instagram then building out the full done for you offer

and that's like the only service I have now just dialed in on making that perfect but that is kind of how that all happened. Got it. So, let me back up a

happened. Got it. So, let me back up a bit on the real estate. Where did you get the capital to kind of invest in these properties?

So, Ben, he I forget where he I think it was just YouTube, like Ryan Pana on YouTube. If you're familiar with Ryan,

YouTube. If you're familiar with Ryan, he um posted a video about couch flipping where it's basically you find a couch on Facebook marketplace for pretty cheap. You buy it, you clean it up, you

cheap. You buy it, you clean it up, you just take better pictures, and then you put it back out. And we were making like $3 to $500 just flipping couches on

Facebook an hour, I would say. $300 to

$500 an hour. But the only problem with that is like you have to wait for the couches to come on. But we did that the entire summer. Uh so we got like a good

entire summer. Uh so we got like a good chunk of cash um that we were able to use cuz property properties outside of Milwaukee like they're not like a lot uh

they're not what people are used to.

They're anywhere from like 100 to 200k.

Um, so you didn't you don't need a huge down payment. But in order to buy it,

down payment. But in order to buy it, you have to like cosign if you're if you were our age because we were under 18, but there's like different ways you get creative. Co-signing or getting getting

creative. Co-signing or getting getting an LLC in like your parents or a guardian's name and then eventually getting that when you're 18. So,

and were your parents involved in real estate like investments?

No, they are not. Like I mean they have a house but not for investing.

Got it. Do you mind me asking like what line of business are they in?

Yeah. So, my mom was a teacher and then my dad, he uh W2 up until I was 10 and then he started his own company. It's

pretty boring, but it makes money. So,

it's basically uh he makes phase converters, which is like if you have a frozen yogurt shop and you want to plug your big frozen yogurt machines in like an outlet, it won't work because it

needs so much power. Can't just plug it in a regular outlet. So you get a phase converter to get more power and then you can plug it in that and it will work. So

that's basically what it is. But he

makes like big electrical machines for like bigger businesses.

Yeah. And then your boyfriend uh now husband Ben, you basically made a video when you were 14 saying that you were going to marry your current husband.

Yeah. So

I remember when I first saw Ben in the math hallway, I was like, "Wow, this is the most muscular hot dude I've ever seen. And we were like 14, so I was

seen. And we were like 14, so I was like, "Wow." Um, so two weeks later he

like, "Wow." Um, so two weeks later he was my boyfriend, of course. Just

kidding. But yeah, uh, we hit it off right away. Um, thing with Ben is like

right away. Um, thing with Ben is like he it was just never awkward. We were

friends right away and he's like such a socially awkward guy. So it was weird that like he felt the same way. But

yeah, Ben's my best friend.

And then what was the video you made?

Yes. So that was probably like a month into our relationship. I was just like I basically my mom recorded a video while my friends were over and I was like I'm

going to marry Benjamin William Otto and we just had that play at our wedding.

Play this at my wedding here. Play this at a wedding. This is me

here. Play this at a wedding. This is me at 14 years old on December 8th on a Sunday um in 2019. And I'm telling you, I'm a freshman, by the way, and I'm

telling you right now that we got married to Ben Otto.

So, that video we got, that video was when I was 14, we got engaged at 16, and then married at 19. So, we just played that video at our wedding, but I posted that on social media, and I think that

is probably my most viral video cuz it got 50 million on Instagram, like 60 million on Tik Tok, and it got like in People magazine. We went on the news for

People magazine. We went on the news for it. Um, but yeah, it was pretty crazy.

it. Um, but yeah, it was pretty crazy.

Interesting. And is is that the video that kind of got you into social media or did you post that just kind of randomly after you were making real estate related content?

That video specifically was it was like me reacting to that video at my wedding.

Reaction content does so well, especially in like real life situations like that. So, I think that is why that

like that. So, I think that is why that went viral. And like I don't edit my

went viral. And like I don't edit my videos, but we got our wedding footage back in October and I was like I know this this is going to work. So I just edited it and I posted it after like 10

minutes and it did.

Was that the first viral piece of content you made or had you gone viral before?

No, this is when my Instagram was already pretty built up. This was in like I want to say September or October.

So pretty recent. But that was like probably my biggest video.

Okay. So to get into some of the virality related stuff uh because you service 300 400 people on going viral consistently. What would you say is the

consistently. What would you say is the number one mistake people make when trying to go viral social media?

Yeah. So people just like sometimes I always like to say everyone thinks they're a great marketer. Um but

they will just post videos that they come up with and kind of expect it to go viral. Um, and then eventually when it

viral. Um, and then eventually when it doesn't, they'll just give up. But the

thing with content is there are so many case studies out there of people in your niche that have already gone viral. And

what you can do is you can just search up your niche in the Instagram explore page and you can click accounts and you can find like the top 10 to 20 people in your account or like in your niche. You

go to their accounts and you basically want to look for videos like we call them outlier videos, but it's basically videos that just get a significantly amount or like a how how should I word

this?

Like a higher amount of views than their average.

Yes. So like I I do what's called the 5x rule. So I'm like, okay, if it gets 5x

rule. So I'm like, okay, if it gets 5x views and the accounts followers, that's like a viral video in my mind. So we'll

add all of those to a spreadsheet from their page. And then we will write out

their page. And then we will write out like the hooks. We'll write out how many views it got, the topic of the video, like the format it was filmed in. Um,

and we'll do that for like 10 to 20 videos for each creator, um, for those 10 to 20 creators. So, you're getting a list of like few hundred reels that are like the best performing in your niche.

And then you just use the hooks and the topics from those videos in your own content, but make the value your expertise and like your actual

actionable valuable advice. And that is what works. And even still like when

what works. And even still like when you're starting a new account, you can do that. But the first little bit you

do that. But the first little bit you just have to like push through and get through because it's a slow growth like when you are starting a new account, but if you stay consistent and you do that method, you will grow a lot faster than just trying to post whatever you want to

do.

And what have you learned about social media virality uh like in the past few months that maybe you didn't realize a year ago, two years ago? Like what

what's been new or has everything kind of been the same for a while? I would

say obviously content's always changing.

Um, but I would say probably the importance of like the three main hooks.

So there's like visual hooks, so what you see in the first 3 seconds. There's

written hooks, what you read in the first 3 seconds of a video. And then

there's the verbal hook, so what someone says in the first 3 seconds. So using

all three hooks and optimizing those.

And then also it's something we call formats. So, like if you look at short

formats. So, like if you look at short form content, subconsciously you don't realize it when you're scrolling, but if you intentionally scroll, you'll see some people use like a whiteboard. We

call that whiteboard format where they're like like maybe revealing things under paper on a whiteboard. Or we have like talking back and forth format where like two people might be dressed or one person is dressed up as two different

people and they're like doing a little skit talking back and forth. Or there's

talking head where you're just talking straight to the camera or there's audio B-roll where there's like a trending audio and then there's text on the screen. Um, but there's a ton of

screen. Um, but there's a ton of different formats and what I love to do is if I ever get a viral video, I will just recreate it in different formats and it usually does very well.

Which of those formats would you say is the most valuable? Like if you could only be really exceptional at one um, and you wanted to use it to grow your business, what would you say is the most valuable? I would say the people who can

valuable? I would say the people who can consistently go viral and have the best personal brands like do talking form because I would say like if you look at an audio B-roll video versus a talking

form video, you always get more followers, um more likes, more engagement, more leads through talking form videos, even if they get less

views. Um but I would say anyone who can

views. Um but I would say anyone who can go viral just talking to the camera, that's like the best. um because it's the least engaging. Um so if you can do

well with it, that means like what you're saying is super valuable and people don't need like all the ADHD things to like stay on your video.

Yeah, that's interesting. I see like this big emphasis on short form content particularly among business owners where they're like, "Oh, we need to have like the best edits like um and like the best

graphics, etc." But does like does editing really go far in a video?

No. I would say like if I had to rank things, I would say it's the hook, then the script, um then the format,

um and then probably the editing.

Interesting. Okay. And then of the hooks, you said, uh visual hook, written hook, auditory hook. Uh, I would say it used to be verbal, but now it's visual

because I mean people have always listened to things on mute, but now like if you're scrolling, there's so many people doing so many things and like so many visual hooks. So, you have to have a good one too if you want to make people stop.

And what goes into a good visual hook and like what really makes people stop scrolling on Instagram?

Yeah. So, I would say there's a ton of different visual hooks and like some people think like, "Oh, I have to do something crazy." But you can literally

something crazy." But you can literally it can just be like you sitting down in a chair, like just a motion or like what we do a lot for clients is like if we're doing like a personal trainer. This is

how my client went from 150 to 130 lbs in XYZ time and like have actual like pictures of the client's before and after on the screen. Um, so that could

be a visual hook. um or like a above angle. So it's like the camera's up here

angle. So it's like the camera's up here instead of just like right here. So it

doesn't have to be that complicated, but we just usually um when we're scrolling, if we ever see a new one that follows the 5x rule, we'll just add it to our little sheet. But there's just a ton you

little sheet. But there's just a ton you can do.

And for you specifically, because I would imagine when you do this type of service business, you can't teach someone all the factors that go into a video. Like you can give them the

video. Like you can give them the script, the research, maybe an idea of the format, visual hook, etc. But like, do you think about your clothes? Do you

think about like your hairstyle? Do you

think about like the tonality of your voice for certain things? Like how many factors and variables are at play?

Yeah. Like I would say that's kind of the hardest part. Everyone like we kind of leave the tone and well we'll ask clients if they want like their scripts to be funnier, more

professional, serious, like an authority but tone and like how you dress. I mean,

tone's important, but like how you dress um and stuff like that, like it's probably things we care about less. But

when we give a client a script, we basically at the top we have like three different sections. It's like the notes

different sections. It's like the notes section, which gives a breakdown of like what format it is and how to film that format. Then we have the script section

format. Then we have the script section and it's just we put the script in bullets. And how we have clients film is

bullets. And how we have clients film is we're like look at a bullet and then say it to the camera and then look at the other bullet then say it to the camera and we'll cut out all the pauses and

then we have the caption um which is just the caption we put on the platforms. And then the subtitles, how important are like good subtitles for videos?

Um I mean I would say back in the day they were like more important but now like it just doesn't really matter. I

feel like a lot of people are tired of like crazy stuff, but it's important to have captions because so many people listen. Like I think it's 80 to 90% of

listen. Like I think it's 80 to 90% of people listen to content on mute. So

it's like you kind of have to have them.

And there's also like the if you're on Facebook or Instagram, uh particularly a lot of people are international, so it's like easier for them to read English. Um

also it's really interesting as far as like gaining followers. Like what's the most amount of followers you've gained from a video? It's probably that one video I was talking about earlier.

I want to say we got 100K from that video, which is insane.

That's like that's one video out of two years worth of posts. So, it's not common, but you do get those outliers if you post over a really long time period.

What kind of content do you have to make to get more followers, would you say?

Yeah. So that video was like pure education, you know, how to start your Instagram, grow it from scratch, and like step by step value, like from the

beginning up until the end. But that was like so so valuable.

So I the typically the videos that like are funny or memes, those will get you views, but they're not going to get you followers. Like people like to follow

followers. Like people like to follow people who give them value. That's what

I've found the most. So very valuable educational videos. And that's why I

educational videos. And that's why I feel like for Mosie, for example, he's grown so quick because all of his stuff is so tactical. It's so actionable even though it's kind of like more niche.

Like he's not in like a Mr. Beast type of niche, obviously. So that's how you grow, especially when you're a business owner, just providing so much value. And

then how do you feel about the uh like if I had to branch uh speaking content into some niches, it would be like motivational speaking content uh entertainment and then education. Like

I've noticed that sometimes when I post more motivational content that will like grow in followers and then same with education like you mentioned uh but entertainment kind of like you said

doesn't really gain that many followers.

But how do you think about brand? Cuz

it's called personal brand launch and it's kind of like you're helping people go viral, get more leads, but how do you think about like the brand portion of things?

Yeah, that's a good question.

This is one like I I don't know. I have

like I think my perspective on brand has shifted a lot, especially that I've grown more. Like I'm a lot more

grown more. Like I'm a lot more protective about what I post now. Um,

I think before like I was fine if I like post a funny post and stuff, but now I just like want to make sure everything is super valuable, but I think I kind of

follow a similar ideology as Hermosi when it comes to that where it's like, have you ever heard him give the like flower bouquet analogy?

No. It's basically like you have a bouquet of flowers and every single flower like kind of makes a certain like what I like to phrase it is like you have your main niche which is like it

could be fitness and then you have like your subniches which is like weightlifting, cardio, um maybe it's like a fun one where it's like I don't know maybe you make like protein

desserts or something and whenever like people think about you they just associate you with all these things. I

think that's just kind of how I see a brand. When someone looks at someone or

brand. When someone looks at someone or a company and they just associate it with certain things, I guess more tactfully with you, I see like all your videos are very colorful.

Uh you usually wear like a comfy looking hoodie with comfy looking sweatpants. Um

like the captions look as though they're handwritten or something. Uh or the subtitles. Um how do you think about

subtitles. Um how do you think about like those things?

Yeah. So, I mean, brand's all about consistency, and I think really with social media, as long as you show up as like you, you'll be just on brand all the time. So, like sweatuits, I have um

the time. So, like sweatuits, I have um a Nike sweatuit and probably 15 different colors for summer and for winter, like each, so probably 30. I

have sweatuits. I have a black sweatuit and like I have five versions of their black sweatsuit. I wear it so much. Um,

black sweatsuit. I wear it so much. Um,

but that is on brand for me because that is just me. Do you just like get really cold or is Milwaukee super cold?

I'm cold all the time and I live in Wisconsin so wow I just said that totally like Wisconsin.

Um but yeah, it's cold there all the time. But it's great. It's kind of like

time. But it's great. It's kind of like the weather here kind of reminded me of it. Like 70 while the UV is like 10.

it. Like 70 while the UV is like 10.

That's what we've been getting lately and it's been pretty nice.

H interesting. So okay, just congruency in what you do dayto-day with what the social media looks like. Is there any part of your life that you don't kind of

show on social media as much?

Um, I mean, I I pretty much talk about most parts of my life, but I would say my relationship is probably like the least I talk about, but I still bring it up sometimes.

And you were telling me that Ben also runs a business. Um, I'm just curious to hear about his business as well.

Yeah. So, Ben started a lawn and landscape company when he was 13. Now,

he also has no plowing for the winter.

But yeah, he is kind of like the same deal. He gets like reoccurring mowing

deal. He gets like reoccurring mowing clients, so it's like a good reoccurring revenue. He has three crews that just go

revenue. He has three crews that just go out and do the stuff and then he does like landscaping projects as well. So

those can be like 10 to 25k jobs.

And then what's kind of your guys's routine or like what does your daily routine look like? I've seen

you wake up at 3:00 a.m. have this

really insane discipline.

Yeah. So, it's even worse now. For the

past year, I've probably woken up at like 12 a.m. every day

because I'm a psychopath. But, um

12 a.m.

Yeah.

So, I had so much work to get done before I came here. I woke up at 11:30 yesterday.

11:30 p.m.

That's when you woke up. So, you're

pretty tired right now?

No, I'm good. I'm used to this.

Chilling. Okay.

Yeah. So, basically, I will get up at 12:00 a.m. I will work for about like 4

12:00 a.m. I will work for about like 4 to 5 hours and then I wake Ben up and then we go to the gym. Um, we do like we'll lift. Um, and then afterwards

we'll lift. Um, and then afterwards we'll come back and he gets ready and leaves for work cuz obviously a lot of his stuff's out on the field and he's not completely out of his business yet.

Um, he still helps his landscaping crew a lot. So, he's pretty much gone um

a lot. So, he's pretty much gone um until two and then I'm home pretty much all day. Uh just I mean in the morning

all day. Uh just I mean in the morning I'll do my deep work and then during the day I usually do a lot more admin tasks, management, um just kind of like what needs my attention at the moment cuz obviously

when you're CEO your days never really look the same. You just go where you're needed. But then around three is usually

needed. But then around three is usually like when I'll start winding down. Ben

will come home. He might have some like quotes later on, but I will just literally rot the rest of the day. I

will read a book. I will watch TV or I'll hang out with Ben. Um, just because I usually stop when I'm kind of like burnt for the day.

So, why do you wake up at midnight every day?

Um, honestly, I've just found like I've done a lot of different things and that's just what I found works for me.

Even though it sounds psychotic, I'm so used to it because I've been waking up since like at least 3:00 a.m. since I

was 15.

um just to get and get the real estate stuff done before school or um at the time like when I first started I was like the type who would read all the books before getting started. So I'm

used to getting up early. Um but it's just the one time of day where nobody bugs me. Not even Ben. Like he's still

bugs me. Not even Ben. Like he's still sleeping and I actually can just get everything done.

And what does your deep work look like?

Like the first four hours of your day.

It's just whatever is going to grow the business the most. So it might be making SOPs. It might be making content for PBL

SOPs. It might be making content for PBL like scripting. Um or it might be hiring

like scripting. Um or it might be hiring like going through applications. It just

depends on like what's going to grow the business the most at that moment.

And like what do you not outsource? Like

what are the things you do yourself? You

said it's hiring SOPs. Like you actually go through and make the SOPs and you go through and hire every employee in the business. uh not as much anymore, but I

business. uh not as much anymore, but I would say with agencies in specific, if you don't use your agency, you have a

problem. Like you need to use what you

problem. Like you need to use what you are trying to sell. So, a lot of that stuff, like we even have our clients like review their own scripts to make sure it's good. Like I'll still review my scripts and stuff, make sure that's

good. Review like edits before they go

good. Review like edits before they go out. But um I would say for now what I

out. But um I would say for now what I haven't outsourced yet is people creating the SOPs. Like I'm insane. It's

like every single mouse click of a process I will have written down just so it's not messed up. And I have the written versions of every SOP and

like also the video version of every SOP like doing the process. So I have always done that but I am in the process of hiring a director of operations just

someone who can do that.

And what have been the most important hires in your business that have like really scaled it?

Yeah. So I think with agencies as I we were kind of talking about earlier quality when you scale an agency I think your success is based off of the

talent you hire and a lot especially because this industry is pretty new like coming up in the past decade it's really hard to find good people so

you just have to have good pay and a good team that's motivating each other but I would say like the most important part of having a successful agency

that's good at scale is just hiring really good people with very niche skill sets. So like ideiation for example,

sets. So like ideiation for example, that's something I'm hiring for right now and it's just something I've been trying for I think two months, but this is

normal for these like niche roles. uh

just putting out an application every single weekend to try and find someone and like you'll always eventually find someone. But you just it's all about

someone. But you just it's all about volume and just getting enough applications and just finding that that one person.

Is that ideation for your brand or for your clients?

Clients cuz I do a lot of it right now and that's why I work so much.

So you're coming up with the ideas. So

you're looking at the outlers and then kind of coming up with an idea based off that or what do you mean?

Yeah. We have like researchers who will research it and then I'll just review the client's onboarding document. I'll

review the research and I'll kind of create ideas. So, I'll do like, okay,

create ideas. So, I'll do like, okay, this is what I want the hook to be. This

is what I want the value to look like of the video. Now, here's also the format I

the video. Now, here's also the format I want. And then we'll give it to the

want. And then we'll give it to the copyriters.

But it's super unsustainable like because we have so many clients. So,

that's why I also kind of have to get up. Um, but we're definitely looking to

up. Um, but we're definitely looking to get people, but I'm not going to let that go until I find someone who's like me.

I would guess that a bottleneck you might have, and correct me if I'm wrong, is that was such a bottleneck.

Uh, that the virality portion, like for your clients to get really good results, I I would guess that the scripts that have done really well or the videos that have done really well, you've had at least some involvement in those

particular scripts and like you reviewed them or is that not the case?

No, it is. Um because right now I'm in almost every script set like that we have that's going out. And like I think something as a business owner I've had to learn is like I mean I was out of the

business for a while but then I saw results drop after I got out. So I had to go back in and now we have to hire.

Like I just have to be more intentional with hiring. But because we're missing

with hiring. But because we're missing that person right now I'm still in every single day.

So that's 30 scripts for each client a month.

It's either 15 20 or 30.

Okay. So 20 and then 400 clients. That's

what 8,000 scripts a month.

Yeah. It's like super unsustainable.

And do you like go through all those?

So basically for the ones I can't do ideations on, I review after they're done and I'll just make replacements if that's needed cuz like our copyriters are still like good at ideiation, but

like obviously I've been doing it like the most I have the brand. So yeah, but if they have the hooks and they have the client, like they can still make great scripts and then you just make some

adjustments after. But I have one other

adjustments after. But I have one other person on my team, Jane. I love her. Uh

she's like the same skill set as me. Um

and she helps a ton on the reviews and she's the only other person I trust to like do that without my review after.

But both of us combined like we are both at our breaking point.

Yeah. I mean, it sounds like a I what I'm impressed with with your business is that you haven't um gotten shiny object syndrome and been like, "Let me just drop a course. Let me drop something that everyone can buy a million times."

And I'm sure you think about it every day when you're reviewing all these scripts, but like what's kind of kept you from doing that and like looking at other options?

I know if I like I want to make this service like perfect before I ever do something else. like I want to make it.

something else. like I want to make it.

I just want to be the go-to short form content, you know, creation agency for business owners. And I just will not

business owners. And I just will not stop until that's the case. And that

just means literally refining the product and making it better every single day. And until I feel like it's

single day. And until I feel like it's perfect, I probably won't do anything else. And I'm very like picky. Like

else. And I'm very like picky. Like

yesterday I got it's kind of an odd situation but Adobe they like wanted to become part of like

the editing part of the service but I just said no even though it was a lot of money and it I mean Adobe's great but I just like I don't want anyone to

have any like control over it. Like I

just want it to be mine and I just want to make it perfect, but I don't want like any other service or product I could make to like take my time away from doing that.

So, what are you guys using to edit the content?

Uh, we like uh Da Vinci, Premiere Pro. I mean, we use a mix of different ones, but like

basically we have editors are are like our mo we have out of like all of our 1099s, editors are the most cuz like editing is so timeconuming and until AI

can like fully do it, we still need a ton. And we just basically rank our

ton. And we just basically rank our editors like, okay, they can do basic edits, they can do medium edits, or they can do like really good ones. Um, and

then whatever. Like we just have like a for we have a ton of different editing styles and when a client comes on with us, they can choose from like a bunch or they can find one off like on their own and then we'll just do it.

What's the most common editing style people request? Is it like, oh, I want

people request? Is it like, oh, I want it to look like Iman Godzi or Alex Ramosi or uh it used to be Alex, but I think it kind of went out of style like his old old captions if you know what I'm talking about

with the emojis and stuff. Yeah. Um, but

now I would say a lot of people actually go for more simple captions like you know what Leela does where it's like kind of like on her on her talking head videos. She does just like does very

videos. She does just like does very simple captions and people like little light ones. Okay.

Yeah. But we also have like a lot of other ones too um that people like that are more complex. But I wouldn't say it's like they're not like

I can't think of anyone who like would like like it's not like a herozi style.

It's not um one of the big ones, but they're just like kind of like their own customized ones that we get a lot as well. But

yeah, they'll pick one of those and then we will get the we have like all the editing styles ranked and then we'll just give, you know, a basic edit to a basic editor. um and kind of like medium

basic editor. um and kind of like medium edit to medium editor and you get the idea. But we just have the editors use

idea. But we just have the editors use whatever they like and as long as it looks like the reference then it's fine.

So for someone who maybe can't afford your service or like you couldn't work with them for whatever reason, what employees would they need to hire? What

process would they need to do for growing their personal brand? Let's say

they wanted to do just fitness educational content.

Yeah. So, basically what I would do is obviously make your Instagram account.

Um, but I would say the first thing is I explained the research method earlier.

So, I would do that, but I would also do one other research method, which is you go on Instagram, go to the explore page, you hit the search bar, and then you just type in your niche. So, if it was

like dog training, you just type in dog training. Or you could create like I

training. Or you could create like I like to create like five to 10 keywords that relate to that. And then once you search it, you click the reals tab. And

I wish I could show you this visually, but then you will just come across literally like the most viral hooks in that niche. And if you like scroll on

that niche. And if you like scroll on that reals tab after you do that keyword research, you want to look through all the videos that have over a million plus views and just save the hooks that you

would use. And then typically what I do

would use. And then typically what I do is I just make sure they follow the 5x rule and then I'll add them onto a spreadsheet. And then those are like

spreadsheet. And then those are like I mean Instagram SEO kind of sucks but like it really does. Yeah.

Yeah. I mean Tik Toks is really good compared to Instagram but I don't like to use Tik Tok as a reference cuz Instagram is harder to go viral on. So

like I like to use Instagram for ideiation better. But yeah that's

ideiation better. But yeah that's probably the research I would do along with like finding the top 10 to 20 creators. And then after basically

creators. And then after basically basically what I do for clients, I would just write probably a batch of like 15 to 30 scripts with, you know, the viral hooks, the viral topics, but with your

own, this is so important. You don't

want to copy viral videos. That will

just make you look like a fraud. So you

want to add your own like value in the meat of the video. So your own actionable advice. So, like if you're a

actionable advice. So, like if you're a dog trainer, you want to show people how to teach their dog step by step how to sit or like I saw this one girl do like how I taught my dog to shut the door and

I thought it was like the coolest thing and she gave you the stepby-step advice.

I hate or I don't hate but like when people give like fluff, it just never works. I mean, it doesn't never work,

works. I mean, it doesn't never work, but it just is a lot harder to go viral when you're giving fluff um than opposed to like actionable value that people can actually take away right away.

So write scripts with your own expertise and experience um on how to get you know people XYZ result. Make 15 scripts um use different formats. Test everything

out on your account. So if you are starting from scratch, I like to try a bunch of different topics, a bunch of different formats in your niche and then you post like 50 to 100 videos. Try and

post every single day. And then

basically after 50 to 100 videos on a new account, you can kind of see, okay, what worked better, what formats worked better, what hook hooks worked well, what topics worked well, and then you

just start doubling down on, you know, those hooks, formats, and topics. And

you just keep doing that over and over again, and you will grow over time.

I want to ask about two things. The

first is the fluff portion. Can you

define what you see as fluff in most content? because this is something I

content? because this is something I have to help a lot of people with when they ask me for advice on their videos.

But I'm not just cutting things that aren't valuable. I'm cutting things that

aren't valuable. I'm cutting things that aren't valuable and things that aren't interesting. Like both of those two

interesting. Like both of those two things. But how do you think about it?

things. But how do you think about it?

When I think of like fluff, um, let's see. Like fluff to me and like I'm pretty picky. Like I like things to be really specific. But if I'm a

personal trainer and I'm giving advice, I'm like, "Okay, walk every day, lift every day, eat healthy." But like actionable value would be walk 10k steps

every single day. Do this exact 4day split. Um, and then like have them show

split. Um, and then like have them show the split. Um, or like for calories like

the split. Um, or like for calories like use this tde calculator online. Subtract

2 to 300 calories. Uh, that's your calorie deficit. eat this every single

calorie deficit. eat this every single day, eat one gram of protein per pound of body fat. Like it's very clear what they need to do and like they want to save that stuff cuz it's actually

helpful. So it's like that's what I

helpful. So it's like that's what I would say fluff versus real value is.

Interesting. So just be as specific as possible and as helpful as possible. How

about when you're telling like a story?

Like if you were to tell us the story of how you did this at 20 years old. um

like what do you consider fluff in that instance?

So yeah, I like consider educational content and storytelling content completely different.

Okay.

But basically in our client scripts, if they have the 20 scripts package, we will have four storytelling scripts and 16 educational.

I think storytelling they do well, but like it's there's it gets it can get repetitive, so we don't like to do as much. But people love like my story

much. But people love like my story videos or just like how they grew, like how they grew or their personal transformation. Yeah, people love that

transformation. Yeah, people love that stuff. And I wouldn't consider like that

stuff. And I wouldn't consider like that stuff fluff if you're telling a story, but like educational content is where you see the fluff. But storytelling is completely different. Um, I think you

completely different. Um, I think you can be a lot more like as long as you're vulnerable and you know there's a good payoff at the end of your story, it could do really well because it's

definitely been more popular lately.

If you could give us an example like what's a story you find yourself telling all the time like when you meet people like here's how I grew this business.

It's the one I already told. It's like

the cuz people always ask like oh how do you get into this? Um, so I would just tell them like, "Oh, I started in real estate, da da da da, posted content, did well, got into this."

So yeah.

And why do you choose like those parts to include?

Is there like any thought to that?

I would say mainly because they're all just vital to telling the story. Like I

got into real estate and because I saw all these other big real estate people like I want to start posting on social media. It did really well and I was

media. It did really well and I was like, "Wow, real estate sucks. this is

fun. I'm gonna do this instead.

Yeah, I did notice how you crafted the story. I was like, it's very interesting

story. I was like, it's very interesting like the parts she left out, but it's the most crucial thing needed to understand it well. Um, another thing I wanted to ask you about with your

clients. So, you do 15 to 30 videos for

clients. So, you do 15 to 30 videos for them a month. Do you ever think that if you did like a couple videos for them, like the more experienced one, if you just did like four really good videos,

that would be better? And just like how do you think about quality versus quantity in general?

Yeah, I think about that all the time.

Um, I would say like I try to treat the 30 videos like I was doing four, if that makes sense. Like I

don't like to give a client a script unless I feel proud of it and that makes it so much more time consuming. But I do think like if you

consuming. But I do think like if you really did just hone in on four, I think personally I wouldn't like that because you're not testing as much. You're not seeing what

works as much. So I think it might actually be worse cuz if you can just test a bunch and then just study what works and then double down on that, like I think that's way better.

And when do you ever like are there any videos that you put a significant amount of time into that it's been worth it or is it usually just not worth it? I would

say a like every single one of my videos, there's so much time into it.

But I think the videos I spend the most time are when I find like real life examples of the point I'm trying to make cuz like you have to go find the case studies and

leave really good editing notes and stuff. But it always makes it worth it

stuff. But it always makes it worth it because people get the visual and they can actually see it and it's not just like words they're hearing. So I would say it's worth it.

And then tell me about some of your clients uh that you've worked with. What

have been like some crazy success stories? Does any I'm guessing this is

stories? Does any I'm guessing this is the case, but do any of your clients make like significantly more money than you from the service?

Yeah. So, there's one in particular. Um,

there was this one I was nervous to take on. His name's Carl and he's like an

on. His name's Carl and he's like an older gentleman, probably like 65. He

has like 10 kids, but that's not relevant. It's cool. But yeah, he is in

relevant. It's cool. But yeah, he is in the franchise niche. And the reason I was nervous was because I don't know anyone in the franchise niche. I tried

to do research and like there wasn't really anyone. So, I was like skeptical,

really anyone. So, I was like skeptical, but I was like, "Okay, I'm just going to, you know, really really try on these and like I basically just researched other niches and try to convert it to his."

his." And franchising is like he basically is a franchise broker.

So he works with like a ton of popular franchises and then he works with clients and tries to get them or like suggests certain franchises that would work for them and if they start it he gets a commission.

So like Wendy's Chick-fil-A or like what kind of franchises?

Like those but not Chick-fil-A. They're

like very like in-house kind of and very selective. But like I'm trying to think

selective. But like I'm trying to think like Great Clips Molly Made. There are

some restaurants but can't really think of off the top of my head. But then

basically what we did is cuz he was starting from scratch too, but we looked at like a ton of different niches as I said, did research and then converted them over to his and we did like videos

like or Burger King or um like Crispy Cream or Duncan and like just like those comparison videos I would say. Well, we

posted like 3 months worth of content and we were like under 100 followers and I was like what the heck? but it's also just kind of part of having a new account. So then on our fourth a new

account. So then on our fourth a new account. So then on our fourth month we

account. So then on our fourth month we got our first viral video. I think like 9 million views and it was breaking down how much you make owning a McDonald's

franchise I think. And we took that exact video script and format and then just replaced the restaurant in it and it just kept going viral and viral. So

then we also um took that original viral video and we made it into an audio B-roll video and that one got like 10 million views. And

we have just kind of started replicating that format and then like pinning to um different franchises against each other to show you what makes more money. And

like those three things consistently go viral for him. So now that we have that, we just every single month script videos that are different versions of that with

a CTA that leads to, you know, uh his like franchise broker stuff. So yeah,

and he like basically makes like 60K for every single person he gets and he gets like hundreds of leads. So,

and what does he do exactly? like he'll

take someone and be like you'd be good for this franchise and broker the deal or so like his target audience is people who are in 9 to5 like manager positions and could just manage our own franchise.

Do you know how much he's doing roughly?

No, I don't. But I know like sometimes he'll just text me like, "Oh, we got five deals this week and that's like 300k." Yeah.

300k." Yeah.

Oh my gosh. Geez. Uh, and then has there have been any other success story that stands out to you like um of someone that took a while to grow?

Um, I would honestly say, I mean, I have some that like grew really quick, some that took a while, but I would say another person that took a really long time was myself when I first started my Well, I

originally I have like a personal account and then a business account and I started posting the social media stuff on my personal account and it just like wasn't aligned with my business content.

So, it didn't do well. And you'll find that when you try to post a new niche on a profile you already built up surrounding a niche, it just doesn't work. Um, so

work. Um, so I started a different business, Instagram, or personal brand launch, and I think 3 months it was the same thing,

just like under 100 followers, posting every day. And then the fourth month, I

every day. And then the fourth month, I got my first viral video. And same deal.

It's just the same thing that happens every time when you make a new account.

takes a while, but you'll eventually get your first viral video and then you just double down on that. That is how you grow a page.

Is there anything ultra specific that feels like a hack on social media? Like

anything with trial reels, anything you're doing with testing on TikTok?

Like I know a lot of people do multiple pages for testing with different types of hooks, like a bunch of crazy stuff.

But is there anything like that that you've looked at recently? I wouldn't

say recently, but I think for a long time we were one of the not the first agency, but we were one of the I guess first short form agencies to really take

research serious. Like we have always

research serious. Like we have always been doing like 10 to 12 hours of research a month to like every single month too. It's not like just the first

month too. It's not like just the first month. And like we just do that

month. And like we just do that religiously so we can study what works and we also just double down on what works and researching and doubling down on what works for that person. It just

does wonders. That's like all you need to do.

It's funny you say this. I mean I'll probably cut this out but maybe not. Um

just like a lot of the secret sauce of why this podcast has done well is because I noticed I was like I asked all the other big podcasters because I kind of knew them. It's like how much research do you do like to craft the

clips ahead of time? and they're like, "Oh, no. We don't even think of it like

"Oh, no. We don't even think of it like that." I'm like, "Oh, well, you can just

that." I'm like, "Oh, well, you can just find a guest." Like, let's say you went on another podcast, had a viral clip, just take the exact same hook and get them to retell the story differently. No

one does that. Can you believe that? Um,

it's been a major attribution to any views I've gotten on this podcast. But,

um, I definitely agree with you that research goes a long way. And for for YouTube specifically, do you like I I I think YouTube and short form can be really

similar, but people will find like outliers on like even smaller pages and then like use those titles and thumbnails. Do you ever do that?

thumbnails. Do you ever do that?

100%.

Yeah, I think that's so important.

Definitely. Uh yeah, the thumbnail outliers is where this all started. Like

view stats by Mr. Beast has been super helpful um for coming up with stuff. But

is that like so on Instagram we have like something called sort feed and it's like it like will automatically sort someone's videos on their profile.

Oh that's maybe my hack then.

Yeah.

So there's this thing it's called the sort feed extension. It used to be free.

It's like it turned like $40 for like it's a lifetime. Like you'll get it for your life if you pay 40 bucks and it's so worth it. But if you go on someone's Instagram page and you click reels, you can click the little puzzle piece in the

corner of your screen and you can basically select, you know, 100, 500, all of their reels and it will sort them from most to least viral.

We use this. Yeah. Okay.

Did you make a video about this?

Yeah, that's why I use it for sure.

I use it every day.

Yeah, it's awesome. But is like that what view stats is for YouTube?

View stats is a little more interesting.

Um, but that tool is really helpful because no one has built anything for Instagram that can sort the videos. Uh,

but and then Tik Tok recently came out with a thing where you can sort people's profiles by most liked or most viewed, etc. But view stats like you can search

uh like a good example, I had this thumbnail um of a guy holding up a hoodie and it said $500 million a year um because like he has a brand called

Comfort Clothing that makes 500 million a year. I have like literally seven

a year. I have like literally seven other sweatsuits.

That's interesting. I was wondering if you wore those because like Yeah. Um

I wear Nike for like videos, but I have a ton of theirs.

Yeah, comfort's nice. But um essentially we took that thumbnail and then post it on view stats and it will show other things of people holding up hoodies or holding up t-shirts with text on them.

And then we kind of reorganized the thumbnails based on the outlers. Um or

if you I don't know search certain keywords like body fat, it'll show all the outlers for body fat and then you can make it specific to a podcast. Um

but yeah, I mean if I like I use it for short form content too because if you go on YouTube, find an outlier, you can kind of take that as a visual hook, you know what I mean?

Yeah, I do that too actually. I'll find

like those on YouTube where they have like obviously they went very viral for like a small account and we will use like their thumbnails can be really great visual hooks or like their titles can be good verbal hooks or written hooks.

H how important is the thumbnail for Instagram?

Not important. I mean like yeah people might see it on the explore page and click it but like I have never like intentionally made a thumbnail in my life.

And then so you're 20, you make $700,000 a month. How do you invest this money?

a month. How do you invest this money?

Yeah, I invest it into index funds.

Boring answers of the best. Um, index

funds. Gotcha. Just and that's it.

Nothing else.

Yeah. I mean, obviously like I don't like I don't take out much money from the company. I take out me and Ben split

the company. I take out me and Ben split our expenses and it's like 2500 a month each for each of us. And then I also

take out 5K to invest in index funds because if I invest until I retire, which I'll never retire, but if I invest until like I don't know, let's say like 65, then I will have 25

million. If I just keep investing my

million. If I just keep investing my five grand into index funds and I could double that and I could do 10 grand a month and I probably retire with like double if I start now. So it's boring

but it works.

Yeah. So, okay, that's pretty frugal, I would say, to have 5K, but I live in Wisconsin, so yeah.

Yeah.

Just you see all these other uh 20-year-old millionaires like doing all this crazy stuff, traveling the world, spending 100K at the club or on villas, etc. Um, has that just never like

aligned with you or anything? Like,

is there anything that you purchased that was material that was a bit expensive?

Honestly, never. I mean, like besides like the investment properties, but I drive like a mediocre car, live in

a mediocre ranch.

I don't know. I buy like Instacart groceries. I don't know. Um, we do have

groceries. I don't know. Um, we do have a nice like gym membership, but that's pretty much it. Yeah, I think I will. I

mean, I don't know why like I've been investing the same amount even when we made like 50k a month. So, I just need to up that. But yeah, I don't really care about that stuff. I do want a nice

house one day, but I think part of me is also just like, wow, that's like what I want is probably really expensive.

H what keeps you from getting a house right now?

Um I don't know. I think it's just like I've never bought something big and nice like that for myself. So I think part of me just isn't ready.

Yeah, I'm I'm big on not getting a house right now. uh because it just seems like

right now. uh because it just seems like less convenient for the business, you know, because if you're like in an apartment, all the things are taken care of, all the amenities. Uh

like our place for instance, we have a gym uh that's like you walk out of our door and then it's the door to the gym.

So, I'm just like all about efficiency.

Um she really wants a house though. Um

but no crazy lavish expenses. What's

like something you've purchased that like since you've had some money that's been helpful for like investing in you, you know, like walking treadmill?

Oh yeah.

Like chef, personal chef, like anything like that?

Um, I will say like once we started making money, we never shop. Like it's

all Instacart, Door Dash, Uber Eats. I

will say we do cuz like some of that stuff the business will pay for. Also,

all my sweatuits, my walking treadmill for sure. I walk. So, I like to walk. I

for sure. I walk. So, I like to walk. I

like to get it over with. I'm all about getting things over with. That's what I think about. So, I'll walk four miles

think about. So, I'll walk four miles right when I get up when I'm working just to get it done. Um, and then probably our gym membership. We do want

a home gym, so that'll probably be like our next big thing. So, that'll probably be like a couple tens of thousands. But

yeah, it's all I can really think of.

Were you guys athletes in high school?

Oh, yeah. I mean, I wasn't. I've always

like went to the gym. Um, I think I started freshman year and I always just did like either a four or six day split and then Ben in high school, he wrestled

a ton. Um, he did like club and then he

a ton. Um, he did like club and then he also did school. I don't know if you guys familiar with like Ben Ascrin, but he's like the only big wrestler from

Wisconsin, but he has like his academy.

Um, so Ben like went there and so he was really good at wrestling and went to state every year. And then also football. He loved football, but not

football. He loved football, but not like enough to ever go to like college for it or anything or make it worth it to go to college, but uh yeah, so he always did sports and then now we just

go to the gym together. And what's kind of your uh mission or goal with all of this uh long term? I really do like what Alex

and Leela do, but like where they obviously they're in private equity um and they work with a lot of businesses and help them grow um and invest in them potentially that with Ben, but I don't

know like right now we're just really loving growing our own companies. But I

know I probably want to have all like his business and my business and other businesses under a portfolio in the future. So that's probably

future. So that's probably 5 years from now we'll start.

So you plan on doing the exact business you're doing right now for five more years.

I can't promise that. But like I'll for sure own it for a long time but I don't want to be doing like daily what I'm doing right now in five years. I want to grow. I want to get out of that. I want

grow. I want to get out of that. I want

to I feel like I went really hardcore back into working in the business and I need to get back out of it once we get the right people. So that's like my goal

within the next 6 months. But

yeah, long term I don't want to just do this forever. I see bigger things. I

this forever. I see bigger things. I

want to be a billionaire. I do. I think

that's just like a goal because I know I can do it. Not even for like the money because obviously I don't even buy stuff now, but just to prove to myself that I can.

Okay. Would you sell the business you have right now? I know there's interesting multiples on uh service business. Is it like 2 to 3x of yearly

business. Is it like 2 to 3x of yearly revenue or agencies? It's 6 to9.

agencies? It's 6 to9.

It's 6 to9. I guess it's recurring.

Okay. I didn't think about that.

Yeah. If you have contracts, I was thinking of coaching businesses for some reason. That's a little less.

Um that's actually service. I actually

learned that at the workshop yesterday.

6 to9x. Okay.

So, what would be your goal revenue with this business before you sold it?

Oh, I want to build this to at least like I want to sell it for if I did for at least 100red million.

Yeah. I don't know. Like I don't I think the money excites me less than like being the best uh for short form content for business

owners, but I know if we are, we'll just make a ton of money.

Interesting. And what do you think would aside from removing yourself from the day-to-day uh stuff, like what do you think would 10x the business?

Just time. I mean, it's already growing so quick. Like after that video in

so quick. Like after that video in August, we were growing like we grew I think like 200k just that month in

reoccurring revenue and like with social media you just have the power to do that with your business. So we can grow it

fairly quickly but to 10x it. Yeah. It's

just time and consistency.

Have you thought about moving to Puerto Rico with that much cash flow?

Why? Puerto Rico. I learned this recently from a guest. Uh it's the only place in the US you can move to uh like keep your residency and you pay I think

it's 3% income tax and then 0% capital gains. Um maybe it's 6% but I don't know

gains. Um maybe it's 6% but I don't know what it is in Wisconsin, but it probably be like 40% 50% a year goes to the IRS.

But yeah, it's 40%.

Puerto Rico's 3%.

Yeah. I I if some really wealthy people live there. It's a nice place. I would

live there. It's a nice place. I would

recommend checking it out. Um there's

like this place called Dorado there and it's Do you know the Ritz Carlton? Like

Yeah.

Um it's essentially like built by them and you just basically live in this like Dorado bubble of like all these nice amenities, etc. Um and it's not too expensive to live there. It's fairly

cheap. Um and yeah, you don't pay any taxes. It's pretty interesting. Yeah, I

taxes. It's pretty interesting. Yeah, I

like my my quarterly tax bill is like multiple hundreds of thousands. It

sucks.

Yeah, LA's pretty rough, too.

Yeah, I can imagine.

Um definitely want to get out of here.

But I I'm like big on if I think I can make more money in Los Angeles than like a place like Texas or Las Vegas at this stage just because primarily because I host a podcast and a

lot of people come through here.

Yeah. Um, people usually come through Vegas, Los Angeles, and Miami, but the other parts of the country they don't really come to. But someone told me I could move to Puerto Rico and fly people out and it would be cheaper. And I was

like, this is true. I wanted to ask about Minihat in general because you're kind of one of the first people to use it super effectively. Like, uh, what's your Minihat system secret sauce on

that? That actually reminds me like this

that? That actually reminds me like this is random, but I've gotten like reached out to by Many Chat to work with them a lot, but I just like literally anything that will take me away from PBL will

like I just won't do it.

But anyway, I use them cuz I love them, but I never like do affiliates or anything. But Many Chat, like Do you

anything. But Many Chat, like Do you want me to break it down just in case?

Yeah. Yeah, for sure.

Okay. So basically what many chat is is when people say as like a call to action on Instagram, comment the word cake and I'll send you you know whatever. So it's

when you like share like lead magnets with people or you know freebies, landing pages about your service and it's like the best way to get leads from Instagram because people will just

comment that word and then they will get automatically sent a DM from you to that link.

How do you use it differently than other people? um like in a more effective way

people? um like in a more effective way like is there anything like in the funnel specifically?

Yeah. So, I would say like I I think a big part of like why I grew really fast during some periods is cuz like sometimes I just use ManyHat a lot

more and I'll create a lot more freebies and especially when you create a really really good freebie that like was clearly like it took you a lot of time and it's not just something that you can

make in chat GBT or something you can like is a Google search away like those are so valuable and what's an example of one of yours?

Yeah. So, I think one of them that took me so long was it's called an a thousand. It was like it's a freebie

thousand. It was like it's a freebie with a thousand hooks. So, it's like a thousand videos that follow the 5x rule that are like good educational content examples from business owners and then

like those hooks templatized so people can use them themselves. So, like it has the link to the viral video and then the template templatized hook for a thousand.

And that like actually making that probably taught me the most about content I've ever learned. But yeah,

that um took probably like 300 hours to make cuz you had to scroll like I had a bunch saved of reals I love and a huge bank of those, but I was super selective about what I put on the freebie. I

probably scrolled through like 20,000 videos to find, you know, the other like 700 I needed. That's a really good one because I saw people after you did that

uh start selling ebooks of that and running literally copy and pasted.

That makes sense. Yeah, that's the thing about a lead magnet is people can just monetize it differently than you and steal it because you're giving it away for free.

Huh.

Do you run any ads?

No.

Yeah.

Jesus. Sorry.

Yeah. Do you just like like what's the I might cut this out, but just like my genuine curiosity is like what's keeping this from like being bigger? Like do you have too many leads and you can't like

fulfill on all of them?

It's really just about me getting out cuz like right now like I will always work as much as needed to get it done but like there's only so much I can work. So

why don't you charge more?

I could. I just I don't I don't know. I

mean, I raise my prices quite frequently, so I've raised them probably.

They've probably doubled in the past 6 months.

So, it's 6K now or No, I actually I want to say year. So,

it used to be like half of what it is now. But also, we've built out the

now. But also, we've built out the service a little bit more. So like we like to do for example like we'll do setup many chat for you and um we had to

add like customer success managers so we added in like milestones checking calls cuz that's what people really wanted. So

it's built out more so we also had to charge more but the price has probably doubled in the past year but like I don't know I feel like we're at a good price point but I know I could charge more if I wanted.

Interesting.

Yeah cuz I I tried to sell like a similar thing. I just tried to sell the coaching

thing. I just tried to sell the coaching aspect. Um, and like I was trying to

aspect. Um, and like I was trying to charge people like 70 80 like 90k packages over like 6 months. Uh, cuz I've had a lot of

months. Uh, cuz I've had a lot of success coaching people in the past. Uh,

but it essentially what I realized was the price wasn't an issue for them, but what they wanted was services. So, I was like, I could literally sell like

services similar to yours for like 80k.

So, I just like I think I got on a call with one of your sales reps way back just to see what the pricing was and I was like, "It's only $3,000." There

hasn't been anyone that you've sold like a super high ticket package to.

No, like anytime someone comes to me for like coaching or anything, like I hate calls.

I don't do calls. Like even this is like wild for me. Yeah.

Um, so I try to do calls as little as possible and like I just I just like helping people like do the grunt work and the service and like I feel like

with business owners too, they want people just to do it for them.

Exactly.

Yeah. So that's why the done for you model works so well. But I think we will probably raise their prices again soon just because I do like the clientele that we get with

a higher price point. They kind of get it more. Um, and I love the people who

it more. Um, and I love the people who just like trust us to do what we do best and like don't I guess like try to redo all the work. Like I said earlier, like everyone thinks they're a great

marketer. Like

marketer. Like they just trust us. They trust the research we've done. They trust the scripts and they just trust the process.

Do you have any churn or do you have like any failures? I'm assuming it's like a little bit but not much.

I mean, every agency has churn. And I

think with content, organic content, it's something that takes time. So like

when we have people churn, it's because of two reasons. One, they just don't want to wait. But like remember how I was telling you it took Carl and myself 3 months to get our first multi-million

view viral video. Well, those changed our accounts and our businesses and our lives, but most people can't wait three months. Um, with like when you're

months. Um, with like when you're starting a new account and you need to consistently post, when you have like a bigger account, we can just study what already worked for you and do research based off that. Like we can grow you

faster. But if you're starting scratch

faster. But if you're starting scratch from scratch, like people um who aren't willing to wait, they might churn. And

then also like the only part of our service that isn't done for you is the filming because it's their personal brand. So people who just don't end up

brand. So people who just don't end up filming.

Have you thought about doing the filming part for them or is that pretty logistically tough?

I mean because it's their personal brand like it just wouldn't make sense like because it's more so like them just not wanting to be on camera or I guess sometimes it's not. It's them

not having the time. But like, yeah, some people just like can't can't film. They just don't like it.

Interesting. I'm guessing it's a lot on the iPhone. I've ran into a lot of

the iPhone. I've ran into a lot of people who are like, "Oh, like I need someone like a video crew around me all the time." I'm like, I don't think you

the time." I'm like, I don't think you would do well.

Yeah. I film all my stuff on my phone.

Yeah.

Yeah. Even my VSSL. Like

what I'm so impressed by you just from personal perspective is like I have the worst shiny object syndrome ever. Uh

which is why I did a podcast cuz it was like like how can I be like find out about people's businesses um like new ones all the time just cuz I crave like

this novelty but um like it's just so impressive that you just dialed in on this one thing and take nothing. Like

where do you get that from you think?

Yeah. Yeah. So, I feel like there's like I feel like every entrepreneur has ADHD, but I feel like there's two types where it's like one's kind of like shiny object and then the other one is like hyperfixation.

And like I'm the type of person where I will eat the same things every day. I'll

wake up at the same time every day. I

will watch the same shows over and over again because I know them. I'll read the same books over again. Like I am just so used to like I don't know. I hyperfixate

a lot and I think that's why. But also

it scaled so big. So now I like I don't have any desire to like start anything else from scratch. I mean in the future yeah um that business with Ben. But

what kind of people do you look at for just general business advice for mentorship uh for social media understanding virality like who are you

looking to there? Yeah, I would say like business-wise for Mosy obviously.

And then for um social media, a lot of it is just like consumption, but scrolling intentionally versus like

subconsciously.

Um and then there's this one girl on Instagram. She's like or on YouTube. She's kind of like a hidden

YouTube. She's kind of like a hidden gem. I feel like she does not get the

gem. I feel like she does not get the credit she deserves. But she breaks down specifically YouTube content so well, but a lot of it transfers over to shorts. Her name is April Lynn Alter,

shorts. Her name is April Lynn Alter, and you should check her out. Like,

she's insane. Like, her videos are so value packed, and it like motivates me to do the same with short form content.

Like, when you watch her video, it's like the most valuable thing you've ever seen. I can't explain it. You just have

seen. I can't explain it. You just have to watch it.

Interesting. Do you have any like particular bits that you've learned from her or is it really just how she crafts the videos themselves that you're looking at? Yeah. So, I always

looking at? Yeah. So, I always understood the concept of outliers on people's page, but like she kind of came up with that term and she does the exact

same thing on just YouTube and like I'm like and she talks about formats on YouTube all the time and like all that stuff just transfers over to content and like I've always understood like the

concept of formats and stuff but like she kind of put it into actual terms. Mhm.

We were talking about shiny object syndrome a minute ago. Like what have been some of your shiny object syndromes you've had in the past year with this business? Like I know Tik Tok shop is

business? Like I know Tik Tok shop is really big. There's like softwares you

really big. There's like softwares you could do a course. Like what have been some things that you've been tempted to do but maybe just um you haven't really thought about it.

Um I would say like I'm pretty loyal to like I'm like super loyal to everything but this business I'm very loyal to and like I don't have too much of that. But

I will say the only other thing I have kind of like wanted to do but I know it will take time away is like starting a YouTube channel about short form content. There's one person I really

content. There's one person I really like. His name is Callaway and he's like

like. His name is Callaway and he's like I say in like the past few months he's recently started posting and he's already grown his channel like 60k. Um

and he does it really well. And

obviously April and Alter who I mentioned earlier, like she does it so well and like I would love to do that and I know it would probably get a ton of leads as well cuz like long form you just build a different type of trust

with people. So I think it would work

with people. So I think it would work really well but I don't know. I just

I've also been advised by people like oh no you shouldn't do that. So I'm like okay.

How about organizationally? Like um what are some how do you organize your business to like scale? Yeah. So, I

would say like I know this is just so like scrappy, but Google Drive, we have all of our SOPs in Google Drive. We have

all of our client scripts, our client videos, files. Like every client gets a

videos, files. Like every client gets a folder. It has their unedited content

folder. It has their unedited content folder, their edited content folder, their scripts folder, and then like um we do stories for some people too like

um and we'll just use ManyHat through that as well. So their stories folder and it's just like very neat in there and we'll have like in those folders will be like May 2025, March 2025. So it

just all kind of like lines up. But

yeah, pretty much Google Drive and then softwares that I use would be like go high level um for a CRM. Many chat

obviously pretty simple obviously like Google Drive, Gmail.

Do you have any advice for posting on social media? Like uh do you make sure

social media? Like uh do you make sure the people are in the US? Do you make sure it's like an iPhone posted at certain times, like that kind of stuff?

Yeah. So, all of our account managers like are US-based because of that reason. Um, because it's just for the

reason. Um, because it's just for the best if the IP is in the US. Um, and

then I used to be actually like a huge proponent of manually posting. Uh,

because I always did like different split tests with like different third party platforms, meta and then manual and manual always outperformed. But then

a month ago, I redid it with Meta and it was the same.

So, everyone on my team loves me now because they don't have to manually post anymore.

That's good to know. My team will probably like that as well. Um,

yeah, I like never trusted it. And I But like Meta, it was the same cuz I did it on my account, too. I was like, "Okay, if I'm going to try it, I'll do it on mine." And it was the same. Yeah, that

mine." And it was the same. Yeah, that

was a big one for us on I can't remember what platform specifically didn't work when the IP was outside of the US or No, it was it was like we would use a VPN

but the SIM and the iPhone wasn't from the US. I think it was YouTube and Tik

the US. I think it was YouTube and Tik Tok it didn't work well but Instagram and Facebook was fine but now I just make sure it's all posted in the US except except for Facebook and Snapchat

spotlight I think. Um

but are you posting on Facebook pretty consistently? Um, yeah, but I have like

consistently? Um, yeah, but I have like the automation set up. So, if it just like if you post on your Instagram, it will automatically post on Facebook.

Huh. Interesting. We We set it up to where it's differently posted, but it's because you can put a link in the Facebook caption. Um, which is like a

Facebook caption. Um, which is like a huge conversion thing. She actually

taught me that. Um,

you know what? I'm going to I'm just going to write that down really quick.

Just give me a second. So, what exactly do you do? Yeah. So, you can post on Facebook the link for whatever you're promoting. Like, say it's this podcast,

promoting. Like, say it's this podcast, I could post a clip of us and I could put the cap the link directly in the caption for it.

Okay. And that's like, is that a real or just a post?

Uh, either or. Yeah. Can do reals.

Oh wow.

But it's crazy.

I have to post that on on Instagram. Be

like, "Hey guys, you can do this."

Yeah. And then you can also do pin comment on Facebook um with the link in there, which is nice. You used to be able to do that on shorts, but can you get ManyHat to work on Tik Tok?

That's new. Yeah. Um, as of like two months ago, I haven't set it up yet.

I haven't been able to get it to work, but I know it would like crush if I could cuz no one's doing it, you know. Um,

that's what I was thinking about with Tik Tok shop, too. I wanted to launch like a some low ticket product just to push my videos more because if you scroll on Tik Tok, I don't know your opinion on Tik Tok versus Instagram. I

don't like Tik Tok anymore.

I don't I don't like Tik Tok. I don't

even use it.

Yeah, cuz you scroll and there's um it's only like edits because they're trying to push cap cut um like cap cut templates and then it's um

just Tik Tok shop ads and then it's sponsored post and then occasionally you'll see like a viral video or like a normal viral video that's not an ad.

But Instagram it's like there's no ads on it. There's no shop. Um, a big one

on it. There's no shop. Um, a big one too is I think they silence so many, this is just my opinion from like having a predominantly male audience. Uh, like

they silence so many conservative creators on Tik Tok and like anyone in the conservative politics side or like any like alpha masculine stuff that they all went to Instagram. So like Tik Tok

is kind of girls um and then Instagram is kind of guys. I don't know.

I agree with that.

Yeah. But I think Instagram, this isn't a word, but I think Instagram is like Tik Tokifying itself. I think the value of a follower has decreased cuz I think

more people treat the reals tab like a for you page and it's kind of getting like a little more like Tik Tok. I would think Instagram your followers are way more

valuable than they are on Tik Tok. Cuz

on Tik Tok people will follow you but they only go on the for you page. So

they won't like see you really ever again. But Instagram followers a little

again. But Instagram followers a little bit more loyal. But I think the real tab is kind of turning into the for you page.

Yeah, I agree.

But I still think like Instagram all day like will change your business. So yeah,

YouTube shorts sucks. My personal

opinion. I don't know.

Actually, I just hit 100K in my personal YouTube. Can't wait to get my plaque.

YouTube. Can't wait to get my plaque.

Nice. Um but yeah, the YouTube algorithm is so weird. It doesn't make any sense.

I do think too like I've seen people ruin their YouTube pages from posting shorts and getting followers from shorts that like they're they won't watch their long form videos so they won't get pushed out.

100%. I mean me me the big mistake I made with this podcast is that I had a crime niche and then I didn't make a new channel. Um you probably saw that and

channel. Um you probably saw that and were like what is this guy doing?

No. My dad So my dad was like so he's like into crime and I was like no he used to do that. Like it's not like that anymore. Well, the goal of the podcast

anymore. Well, the goal of the podcast originally was to do famous crime cases of people, but I couldn't get anyone.

So, I just switched it to business.

So, it just became business. I was like, I'm more more interested in business anyway.

Mhm.

And then some videos started to work, but even my viral ones, like I have a couple podcasts with like a million views, and they all the viewers are old

viewers from the crime channel, which is so strange. It's just people who so

so strange. It's just people who so happen to watch that video.

Yeah, YouTube algo is kind of strange.

How important are Instagram stories? And

do you have any like advice for Instagram stories?

Yeah so I like I love Instagram stories. I think

they're the best way for leads and like you can be pretty salesy on stories cuz like your uh most loyal followers are going to be looking at your stories every single day. So, if you post

personal content and then also just social proof of results your product or service has gotten before and after pictures, not written, you will get leads if you just link your landing page

or you put a many chat CTA on the story.

So, I would post a story a day with some sort of social proof or before and after or lead results of clients.

What's the most amount of money you've made from an Instagram story? Oh, it's

like very like I would say 500 clicks a day is like what I get from stories to the landing page and like it's just so consistent. I I I don't

know the exact metrics on what that converts into. We are setting up

converts into. We are setting up tracking right now, but that is one I should set up because I don't know, but it could be maybe 3,000 6,000 a day if those clicks led to one client,

something like that.

Okay. And then stories. Um, do you have like an email list set up?

Yeah, but I don't I don't really do it very often. I should do it like I should

very often. I should do it like I should be better. I have an email list and for

be better. I have an email list and for a while I did it like weekly, but I just kind of stopped writing emails.

Yeah, it it's something someone was telling me to do cuz it's a valuable way to own your audience.

It is. It is. And I know I should do it and the Hermosi team always says to do it, but I I Do you collect emails on the landing page?

Mhm. So for like some freebies, I will just link directly to like the freebie so they can get it right away. But for

like the a thousand hooks one, they have to opt in. So that's where we will collect the emails.

Did you Were you the person that made the video that it was like it might have been someone else. It's like here's how you set up a mini chat automation that makes them follow you first.

No, I haven't done that.

Gotcha. That was something I did recently that started converting crazy.

I had no idea that was a thing. Is that

a thing? Okay, I'm writing this down, too. Okay.

too. Okay.

Um yeah.

Wow, that's crazy.

I did that on the Hormosi when he collab posted me and I was gaining that video got like 3 million views, right?

So, the original account it was gaining like it had a million in 2 hours. Um,

and he collab posted it and then it started gaining me like 2,000 followers every like 10 minutes. Um, and then the account got banned that day and I was like, geez, that was so inconvenient timing. But

timing. But yeah, I changed it. It used to be like collect an email um for the newsletter, but I was like, I'd rather have people follow me.

Wow, I did not know that was a thing.

So, they just have to follow you and then they get the freebie or what?

Yeah, it's like um make sure you're following me so I can send this to you and then Oh, so it's like is it is it like um a button they have to click or is it just like a message and once they follow you

it will trigger?

Yeah. Yeah. So, it's if they don't follow, um, it goes, "Make sure you're following me so I can send it to you."

And then they click just followed after they do it and then they get it and then if they already follow you, they get it right away.

Yeah.

Okay. Wow. That is so genius.

Yeah. Um, that's been pretty helpful for us. But do you have any uh just personal

us. But do you have any uh just personal curiosity like ideas for marketing a podcast uh with short form content? Like

how would you be thinking about it?

I would do exactly what you're doing.

clipping like collabing with the people because especially because of the like highc caliber guest you have on.

How do you feel about the uh I've been making it was for my old page but I've been making some content that's like uh here's what Alex Ramoszi taught me in 144 minutes or like this is what I I

flew to Vegas to see Alex Ramos and here's what he told me. Like do you think those videos are important for getting people to care about long form content or do you think just the clips is what you would think about? No,

I would do a mix of both.

But I mean, how many videos of those have you done in the past and how have they done?

I've done like five or six marketing videos and they all got like several hundred thousand or like a million views.

Okay. If it's working then just double down on it.

Yeah. I I just I couldn't tell if like I think about congruency a lot. Like

people see this thing and they want more of this thing. So I'm like how does me talking about doing a podcast make them want to watch it? I guess was my thought. But I don't know.

thought. But I don't know.

I guess just a general question like how do you make people care about you and like how do you build like a cult on social media?

Yeah.

Or do you just think about it from um this is the video convert to this funnel? I would say

funnel? I would say obviously make valuable educational content, but like if you look at Hermosy

for example, he like is just or Leela like they are just people. You get to love their personality and like all their little quirks and over time like

you learn so much from them and like you just know them for certain things and that's kind of like how you make people love you. just showing your personal

love you. just showing your personal like your personality in your videos, just not being fake.

Like the sweatuits and stuff like that's just my thing. And I think those little things just add up. But like you have to you have to post for a long time and you

just have to be consistent with the things you do. But like I think those little things that people notice that just is comes with like posting for years.

Mhm.

But I like I'm trying to think of a good example like there's this one girl in the fitness niche I love because in her videos she talks about like volume

eating for example but she'll like post like or she'll add little like meme what are they called like sound effects within her videos and it just makes it

so funny and like you can just tell she's a funny person. She has like a very strong Irish accent and like I've only seen like three of her videos, but that made me follow her cuz I just kept

seeing it and I I don't really follow many people and like just those little things um just made me like really like her personality even though she was sharing the same advice as a lot of other people.

Do you think those things are important for making money though? Like the having different elements of your brand? I

talked to Alex about this and I was like, "Do you think it makes you more money that you talk about fitness um and like your nutrition and what kind of clothes you wear?" Um, and he kind of

hinted at no, not really.

Yeah, cuz he used to post more about that stuff, but then he basically said he got the least amount of leads from that stuff. So, I think really obviously

that stuff. So, I think really obviously focusing on your niche and your content, but adding those little things in within like videos about your main thing. So,

like I talk about Ben occasionally, but only in videos that primarily are talking about like what I do or business cuz I never want people to follow me just for Ben because that's not what I

post about.

How do you use AI in Chad GBT to go viral? Um, I would say the biggest

viral? Um, I would say the biggest mistake is using it to write your scripts. Um, we'll see people doing that

scripts. Um, we'll see people doing that a lot.

You can use it for research. I think

it's great for research, but using it to write your scripts, I wouldn't recommend unless like you completely refine it after. But I think it's great for

after. But I think it's great for research or for example we'll do like clone videos where it's like you're comparing like I said like with Carl the two franchises and you're getting all

the numbers and it's like okay you have Burger King, you have McDonald's, you need to like how much do you have to invest in each franchise up front.

What's the first year of revenue look like and all these things you can just type in like a prompt and it will just give you that information right away instead of having to manually research

it like on 50 different sites. So yeah,

it makes research a lot faster.

How about you specifically for your business? Like what's been the most uh

business? Like what's been the most uh useful way you've used AI? It might be a similar answer, but like how do you use it on a day-to-day basis?

Yeah. So for copywriting research, but for editing, I think it's super it's super helpful. And I think I'm excited

super helpful. And I think I'm excited for it to get to a point with editing where, you know, it will cut down the process and the time a lot more because I feel like editing still takes forever,

especially with more customized editing styles. But auto captions, that was

styles. But auto captions, that was already a huge game changer and that came out like years ago. So yeah, it's only been getting better, but I'm excited for the day where it can take over editing.

What does it do for you now? just

automatically cut the silences or um I would say like auto captions and then some editing styles it can do but you have to kind of refine it a lot after um but it's been helpful with that

but since like short form is kind of different like I could see it in a long form podcast cutting out all the silences or the ones that like automatically switch the camera to whoever's talking can be so helpful.

Yeah, that's that's how we've used it particularly. Um I'm kind of picky with

particularly. Um I'm kind of picky with it though and tell my editors to redo it. There's one called Autopod that's

it. There's one called Autopod that's fairly good.

Oh, yeah. I have someone in the podcast

yeah. I have someone in the podcast niche and we literally just wrote a script about that, like how to use it. But yeah,

interesting.

And like what do you think?

Yeah, it's just uh it's not it's not great cuz I'm just picky about how I want it.

Like I want like I think about a lot of content from the emotional perspective.

Like if I say something profound, I would have the camera cut to your face there. But the AI is not going to do

there. But the AI is not going to do that automatically, you know, um because like the good content is in things that AI can't pick up right now. I wish there was prompts you could write

like uh edit this video and remove anything that's like emotionally uninteresting and like I wish it could pick up things like that. Um or like

remove everything about this topic or remove like when they speak in this tone. Um that kind of stuff would be

tone. Um that kind of stuff would be nice with AI. But

have you played with any of like the Google VO uh stuff yet?

No, I haven't.

Gotcha. Yeah, I played with that yesterday or the day before. Um

what exactly is that?

It basically it's the first AI that can make videos from prompts with speech.

Oh.

So I could like make a video of us talking on this podcast. It wouldn't

look like us. Um but it could say things in a very conversational way. Um you

used to be like you could do that before but you would have to like use different softwares. But it's the and labs and

softwares. But it's the and labs and stuff.

Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.

But it's the first time that you can like straight prompt to videos of people like interviewing each other or like talking about a product. Um

it's kind of scary.

Yeah. You I'll have to show clips of it.

Uh it's really like realistic looking.

Um yeah, I've seen I saw this video today and it was like so random. It's like a 2023 AI video of Will Smith eating

spaghetti and the 2025 version. And it's

crazy like how much AI's improved.

What's one small detail in a video that makes a huge difference?

I would say getting to the value as quick as possible.

Obviously that kind of sounds so obvious, but a lot of times with short form content, people will say the hook and then they'll say like four other things and then they'll get into the value. Just get to the value straight

value. Just get to the value straight away right after the hook. And then

also, I guess just some more little things, making sure like putting your script in Hemingway, which is just a site and you can make it under a fifth grade level so a lot of people can understand it. And then also cutting out

understand it. And then also cutting out like kind of similar to my first point, but all the fluff. So every single unneeded word or sentence, just cut out.

Mhm.

Why the fifth grade reading level?

Because people are stupid. Like most

people are stupid and they won't understand it. So just make it dumb. And

understand it. So just make it dumb. And

then why like fifth grade specifically though? Like

though? Like because most people like statistically in the US are under a fifth grade reading level.

Yeah, that is why.

Yeah. So you got engaged at 16.

Mhm.

Do you think everyone should marry their high school sweetheart?

Oh, hell no. No. Uh I just think I got so lucky with Ben. It's just so rare to meet someone young who is literally like

the boy version of you. um who loves business, who loves working out, who is also kind of introverted,

who just has the same like religion, political beliefs, literally everything the same. Um so we kind of knew right

the same. Um so we kind of knew right away like we did all this hard stuff together. We all had all the the same

together. We all had all the the same values. We were each other's best

values. We were each other's best friends. So it's like who else would I

friends. So it's like who else would I ever marry in my life than Ben? So it

just made sense. But I I think if like you just like love each other or you're just attracted to each other, which that's like a lot of what high school relationships see and you don't have like other things, then no.

What are the benefits of getting married so young?

Um I mean a lot of people were like why?

But we were just kind of like why the hell not? Um,

hell not? Um, I don't think there's like specifically I don't know like special benefits about getting married young, but it's just like something beautiful about

committing yourself to one person for the rest of your life and just like knowing that, you know, I just knew from the start obviously that me and Ben were

going to be together for life, but I think it was just such a rare situation.

Yeah.

When did you first meet him?

Uh, 14. He like was like the new guy at school freshman year. So yeah, snatch that up.

So funny. It reminds me of my friend Bailey in high school. Um she there was this new guy at school and she was like 14 and all the girls were talking about

him and she's like Dibs. And then she like went up to him and they dated from age 14 all the way to uh like through high school and then they got married like as soon as they got out of high

school. and like she was just so like uh

school. and like she was just so like uh locked in on him. Um

exactly the same.

What's something you had to unlearn about content that you used to think was true?

Think on this one.

Yeah. So, I used to think that you had to make videos like complex, I guess. Well, you're like sharing the value, but like you need to make it

you need to shove as much value as you can in a video. I used to think like you had to make content that was super super high value that no other people were talking about and

you just got to dumb it down. Kind of

what I was saying earlier, but you just don't want to make it complex. You don't

have to sound super smart like when you're trying to do it. That's not the goal. The goal is to get the viewer to

goal. The goal is to get the viewer to understand what you're talking about. So

just weigh dumbing it down and not shoving so much value in a video but just focusing on one concept and making it really easy to understand.

People don't care how smart you are.

Yeah. No one cares.

They just want to like get the value from the thing.

That's a good one actually. Um

yeah, cuz we've had people come to us and they just want to speak in like their target audience is like lingo, but they might not know the lingo or they're

like, "We have to make this for one person, but they're treating it like ads. This is organic social media. You

ads. This is organic social media. You

have to be super broad so you can appeal to a ton of people and then you niche in the CTA, but people are going a niche hook." So they're like, "Uh, do you have

hook." So they're like, "Uh, do you have back pain?" and you're like, actually,

back pain?" and you're like, actually, no, that's not a good example. It's um,

you know, do you live in, you know, insert small town in your whatever.

Like, you don't want to do that. This is

not an ad. Like, you want to start off very broad.

They call it like the broad narrow niche framework. A super broad hook to apply

framework. A super broad hook to apply to a ton of people. Narrow value that applies to your target audience, but also a big group of people. And then a niche hook. So, I mean, a niche CTA, so

niche hook. So, I mean, a niche CTA, so you're only getting your target audience as leads. H

as leads. H because that way you get high watch time and if you like you niche it down, you're going to have no watch time because people are going to scroll. So

that's probably it.

That's good. Um if we had to make if we had to craft like the perfect video right now for a podcast like uh I think it would be very helpful to the viewers

to like actionably see what you might do. Uh so let's just take it about your

do. Uh so let's just take it about your story. like what would be like the

story. like what would be like the perfect question to ask you that like you think would be viral?

Probably something with a hook that was results based which was like if you had to go from zero to 500k in 6 months what

would you do in like 60 seconds and then I would break it down like step one, step two, step three, step four. Very

actionable, very tangible. And then that would probably be it. just like a CTA to follow or something. But

interesting. Let's try it for science purposes. If you had to go from zero to

purposes. If you had to go from zero to a million dollars a month, No, no, no.

It'd be if you had to go from if you had to go from if you had to go from zero to a million dollars in six months, how would you do it?

Do you want me to answer?

Sure.

Okay. So, it's gonna be kind of repeat from what we talked about, but I'll just answer.

Step one, I would go to the Instagram explore page. I would hit the search

explore page. I would hit the search bar. I would type in my niche and then I

bar. I would type in my niche and then I would click the reals tab and I would save like a hundred videos over a million views. Then I would step two

million views. Then I would step two take the hooks from those videos and the value or the general topic of those videos and I would write 30 scripts

basically with those viral hooks but my own niche expertise as the value. I

would post those videos every single day on one account and I would just repeat that over and over again until I got my first viral video and then I would step three double down on that viral video,

the hook that was used, the topic that was talked about. Um, and I would just change the formats up and I would just keep posting that and you will grow.

Okay. So, it's it you were talking about followers. I was thinking you were

followers. I was thinking you were talking about was that about dollars or No, it's followers.

Followers. Okay. That's what I would do for followers.

For a million followers. Okay. Got it.

Okay.

I would add visuals to that. So like if I'm explaining the research process, like add a screen recording doing that.

H got it. Yeah, that was pretty good.

That was interesting watching you do it.

Uh because it was like that's like my unscripted like I'm so bad on scripted. I won't lie.

Same. Honestly. Um

but that was like my 7.9 million view video.

Huh.

The hook was what was it? Not to flex, but I'm pretty I I don't know if I can swear on this.

No, no, you can.

Okay. It was not to flex, but I'm pretty good at social media marketing.

And then the written hook was that what what you just said, the hook for that.

And then the value of the video was a step-by-step breakdown I just gave, but a lot better um because it was scripted. And then a CTA.

So I might say, "How are you so good at social media?" And that would be like viral. What? The cursing thing is

like viral. What? The cursing thing is really interesting. Um I've noticed like

really interesting. Um I've noticed like a lot of your videos you curse in the hooks.

Yeah, I I won't lie. I swear like a sailor.

I've been trying to be really good here cuz I didn't know and I want to be You can cuss a lot. I I assumed you were Christian so you did it or something.

But like that is my one thing I'm like terrible at.

Yeah, cuz like I just was with a friend group that started cursing when they were 12. So I've just been doing it for

were 12. So I've just been doing it for so long. But I'm trying to be better.

so long. But I'm trying to be better.

But so to break down like what you just did there, like it seemed like your tonality and speeding like your the speed at which you said the words change. Like do

you try to get in things quickly?

Yeah, with shorts you got to talk fast and I always try like with my tone. I

call it like the know-it-all tone.

That's kind of what I go for in my content and it works really well. But I

also need to talk fast especially when you're giving a huge breakdown like that to keep it under 60 seconds.

Yeah. It seems like there's a lot of confidence like that you're the authority. Is that something you like

authority. Is that something you like worked on or is it just kind of what you had naturally?

Uh yeah, it's definitely something I worked on, but like not really intentionally. When I first started

intentionally. When I first started content, I literally screamed at the camera like cuz that I was just like I didn't have a mic so I was like talking so loud and it's terrible to look back

at. But yeah, I think over time and just

at. But yeah, I think over time and just like because of the results I've gotten, I've just been a lot more confident and I just know what I'm saying is what works.

Maybe you won't be able to speak about all these, but uh what are some opportunities you've turned down on social media?

Mhm.

Yeah. The only thing I've ever promoted on social media was personal brand launch. Like I don't do I get I mean you

launch. Like I don't do I get I mean you probably are the same. I get so many emails about services like big brands of just like

ManyHat, Adobe, all like Whoop, the newest one. I think

newest one. I think the Whoop bracelet or Oh, That's what it is.

Yeah. Yeah.

Yeah.

Iman Godzy's thing. Yeah. Yeah.

Yeah. All those I just turn down just cuz I know it will distract me. And I

hate being like under someone else's control like having to do stuff for other people that like the service do that in the past.

No.

It's interesting that you know that because it's something I haven't really like but it's if you do do brand deals you kind of subjugate yourself to oh now I can't talk about these set of things if I want these to continue.

Interesting. So it was never like your dream to be like influencer girl with all these sponsors.

No no I hate traveling.

You hate traveling?

Yeah.

Have you been like outside the US?

Yeah, I hate traveling. I'm such a homebody.

Yeah.

Yeah. You have to travel a lot for podcast. It's

podcast. It's Yeah, I can imagine cuz you usually go to guest cuz like I mean when you're talking to people like Andrew or like all these other people,

you probably have to travel a lot.

Yeah, this is a logistically tough business. I think you would

business. I think you would I would hate it. hate this business interviews like with Yeah. I don't

Yeah. It's like always trying to like book a like she's like Jack, can we please book the hotel like two days in advance and the plane tickets at least 2 days in advance. I'm like no I can't get it until this guest says it in this

wording that they're doing it. Like you

can't even prepare the research until like I I I don't know until it's just a very obvious message that states they're going to do it and they have a time in mind. you know, someone like you. I was

mind. you know, someone like you. I was

like, "Okay, this will be easy." Like,

she's going to be here on time. She'll

probably be here earlier. Like,

yeah, I was actually here like 30 minutes ago, but I just sat in the car.

Funny enough, the earliest um the person who arrived earliest to the podcast ever was Andrew Tate.

Really?

Yeah. He arrived like 30, 45 minutes early before his team even got there. Um

and we're like, "Bro, what are you doing here?" Like, it's so confusing.

here?" Like, it's so confusing.

That's impressive.

Um but yeah, like no, everyone else is like so late.

Yeah. like difference between girls and guys.

We haven't had an extreme amount of girls. Like it's really just been

girls. Like it's really just been Candace Owens, Laya Hermoszi, and then the top two girls from Beast Games.

Jenny Hoyos. You know, Jenny Hoyos, she's like watch her episode with you.

And she Yeah, I've known her before the episode that I watched, but yeah, she's incredible.

Yeah, I think every girl has been pretty on time.

Yeah, that that's never been an issue actually. I've noticed just like with

actually. I've noticed just like with this might be controversial, but I do love working with girls and women

specifically just because they seem to have a lot more attention to detail and they care more and they're more

personable and like when I've worked with men in the past, they just end up getting let go because they don't care as much and like the client

doesn't like that and I've just I've had like girl and guy account managers and I'm not opposed to hiring a guy account manager.

I would only hire girl account managers who had your business.

Every single guy I've ever had as an account manager has gotten let go.

Interesting. Are there any roles in the company that are like guy specific?

Usually probably the editors sales and editors. There are quite a few

and editors. There are quite a few editors that are male. Yeah, for sure. I

would say primarily male editors, but sales, I mean, we've had girls in the past, but um we only had actually one,

but she like lasted maybe a week and a half. Um

half. Um but the guys like they just crush. I

feel like they're so hungry and since the commissions are in their control, like they control how much commissions they get, like how many people they close, so they're just so much more motivated and I think they're really good at sales.

Yeah. The sales rep I spoke with from your company was really good. He like

recognized immediately that I wasn't going to buy and like just It might have been Joe or Charles or was it like an older man like maybe not older man but like 40s?

I can't remember. or I feel like it was on Zoom without his face or maybe it was just on a phone call. Um, but he just identified quickly that I wasn't buying and then stopped giving like the information about the program or

something and I was like, you're smart. Um, but

you're smart. Um, but that's interesting. Have you was it hard

that's interesting. Have you was it hard for you to hire sales people for the company or did you just have a lot of experience with uh like doing over the phone sales for the real estate?

Honestly, I feel like sales is just one of the ones where you hire people who aren't super set in their ways. They're a little more like

their ways. They're a little more like you usually hire people who are more experienced at their skill set. But with

sales, what's great about it is you can hire someone who hasn't really done it too much before, but they're hungry and they don't have all the bad habits that most sales reps have because they aren't trained right.

Do you guys have a fairly high close rate? Yeah. I mean, I would say it's

rate? Yeah. I mean, I would say it's average, like 40%.

I don't know if that's average. Is that

average? I feel like that's particularly high.

Oh, I don't know. I mean, when I go to the workshops at Hermosi, like that's what they say. Like they Well, from what whenever I tell them mine or cuz like sometimes we'll talk more about sales, sometimes we'll talk more about

marketing, but usually when we talk about sales, they say what I have is like pretty standard. H. And that's like a warm lead or a cold lead or warm. Warm. All of my leads are like

warm. Warm. All of my leads are like very warm. People who've been watching

very warm. People who've been watching my social media for probably months at least.

And how do you filter that out?

What do you mean?

Like uh they go to VSSL and do they get on the call immediately or how does it work?

So my funnel is the many chat comment.

They get DM'd the landing page and then there is like so much like a social proof on the landing page, kind of a process breakdown, benefits, results, all that stuff. And then they can book a

call and then after they book, there's a VSSL before the call.

What are like some things you definitely should not do on Instagram that people do to try and grow? Like buying

followers buying Oh my god, that will destroy your account. M

account. M we have so many people who like not so many people but we've had a few that have bought followers and like it just destroys your account. Like if you buy it just make a new account. Give up on

the account because it will destroy your account.

H what are some other things that will hurt the account? We talked about posting outside of the US.

Yeah. So like posting on a third party platform um just to Instagram specifically. it

just won't do well even if it's a great post. Or I would say never fall for like

post. Or I would say never fall for like the engagement hacks that you have to do like oh you have to engage 15 minutes a day or you have to do XYZ comments after

you post a video or you have to post at XYZ time. All that's BS. Don't even

XYZ time. All that's BS. Don't even

listen. Um let's see what else. I guess

like just when you kind of like we talked about earlier, if you're in the fitness niche and you post a video about I don't know like your cat, it won't do

well if your audience like if you built up an audience for people who follow you for fitness.

Does that matter on Instagram anymore though?

Um I would say still yes cuz like when I try if I ever try posting social media stuff on my personal page it just won't do well.

H interesting.

Yeah. What's one question you wish people would ask you about social media, but they don't?

Probably what do I not need to do?

Because I think on social media, unfortunately, especially in my niche, like there's so many things that are promoted that you should do. Like so

many things that people think they have to do to grow an account. Like I was talking about earlier, like engaging on social media and stuff like that. I

think people should ask more about like what they can eliminate.

Um I think because with our even like with our company processes, we always are trying to figure out like what we can subtract or automate to make our lives easier because there's so much

noise and so many fake things that you don't even need to do. And like there was like during my huge growth phase, I didn't even have time to go on Instagram at all. Like I wouldn't even engage on

at all. Like I wouldn't even engage on the platform. my assistant posted for

the platform. my assistant posted for me, so I wouldn't even be on it and I still grew. So, there's just probably

still grew. So, there's just probably What do I not need to do?

It's a really good answer. Uh, do you scroll on uh Instagram consistently to like always try to stay in the know of what's going on or do you not find that important?

I used to not as much, but now lately I have been.

Um, especially like making that a thousand hooks lead magnet. I guess that just changed everything. So now I kind of make it I have on my literal like

to-do list every single day 20 minutes of intentional scrolling and that's I will for like 20 minutes a day, but strictly for either to learn stuff and post stuff about content if I'm seeing

like a trend or something that's working for business owners or stuff that we can do for clients. Like do you ever try to invent anything like new ideas like nothing that's like technical

statistically proven to be an outlier?

Yes. And sometimes it works I would say cuz like on my personal page I got engaged at 16 wasn't something I studied or that 50 million view video that

wasn't something that I studied. It was

just something I had a really good feeling would do well because it's so controversial.

Yeah. I have noticed a lot of my really big ones have been out of the box that I haven't seen anywhere, but it's usually taken from somewhere, you know, like you can usually tie back and be like, "Oh, I

took it from this person." Like you probably saw this video. I had like a compilation of guests saying, "Good question. That's a good question."

question. That's a good question."

I did see that video.

Yeah.

I think that's when I So, like I obviously knew about you, but I saw that video specifically and that's why I followed your like original Jack account. like the just the Jack one.

account. like the just the Jack one.

What made you follow it just that video?

Just because like you're like, "Oh, that's good marketing." Or like you're like, "Oh, he's had all these guests."

Like what made you Well, I've seen your face like a million times and then I saw this really good piece of short form content and whenever I see, you know, like people with good content that I can also like use for

myself as inspiration or for clients as inspiration, I'll always follow.

Interesting.

Yeah. Cuz I asked, it's so funny. Um I

talked about this. It's a really meta concept that that after that video came out, all the guests started saying good question on the podcast. Um like

I think I've already said it.

Yes. Like at a really high rate and then every single comment on my videos were like dang this guy asked good questions.

Like um people would say to me in person like, "Bro, your podcast is great. Like

you ask such good questions." I'm like like you this didn't used to happen.

It's like you're implanting you're literally influencing people's um opinions. You know what I've noticed

opinions. You know what I've noticed about you is like you're very neutral on podcast. Like I feel like you're very

podcast. Like I feel like you're very calm and like you don't force your opinions on people or you don't judge people for what they say or

anything which I feel like is rare cuz people always want to talk and always want to like influence I guess their opinion on people's answers. But I really like you

people's answers. But I really like you as a host for that reason.

I appreciate that. Yeah, that's been a really intentional decision. Um,

like we haven't uh hosted some of our past controversial guests a second time because we didn't want to fall too much into a niche. But

yeah, I think there's a lot of power in being neutral. Um, I think it creates

being neutral. Um, I think it creates better content if people feel comfortable that this person like you don't know if I'm like have certain political beliefs, but you know

that I talk to a lot of people with a different with a lot of different types of ones. Um,

of ones. Um, yeah. Actually, I have a question about

yeah. Actually, I have a question about one of your guests. You don't have to add this in, but you did the one I forget his name. He's like the very religious one.

Cliff and Stewart Connectley.

Yeah, I listened to that. I really

enjoyed that. That was like one of my favorites.

Yeah, they're really great. Um that was a they're so like I just love how they always reference like the Bible and stories and yeah, that was a tough one. It's so funny with

podcast that like the amount of preparation you do for each one is so vastly different. uh like something like

vastly different. uh like something like this since you didn't have many interviews and I already already understand social media a bit like it's less prep required than Cliff and Stewart which is study the entire

history of the Bible and Judaism and Islam and like cross-co compare everything and then come at them with questions you know or like I don't know Robert Green we're having

on next week like 48 laws of power and it's like read all of his books ever you know and then like study all the historical figures who've used it. It's

It's a really funny one. Um

Yeah. Yeah. Especially like people like Hermoszi cuz like if you don't consume his content or his books like there's so much out there that you'd have to That was tough too. Him and Tate like I

watched every podcast they've been on to make sure there was there was stuff they hadn't heard.

Horosi is the hardest person to interview ever by the way cuz the way he thinks it's like I'm like would this I'm like would your businesses have been more successful if you prioritized your relationship

sooner? He's like, "I don't know."

sooner? He's like, "I don't know."

Yeah.

I don't I don't really think about it.

Like he won't think about anything in the past, you know? Um

and then he's like, "That word doesn't make sense to me." Um

yeah, I listened to that episode. That

was funny. There was just like some of those like very short answers and you're like, "Okay, next question."

Yeah. Um

Mhm. I did like how you like switched up the last question and I'm pretty sure that's a real that did well for you.

Yeah, that was the one they collab posted that was doing pretty well. Um,

cuz even before this, I like made it a daily habit to listen to your podcast at the gym. So, I like have my notes up and

the gym. So, I like have my notes up and I just have random facts about you. I I

studied you before I came here, too.

I've never had anyone do that. Yeah. I

think one other person who was CIA said they watched the podcast. Uh, that's

pretty rare, actually, that people are like, "Oh, yeah. I've been watching it."

Um, why shouldn't you copy big creators?

Because people will know. Like you see copycats of like huge people in every single niche and think about how

embarrassing it is for people to see that video that you've created and been like, "Oh, this is just a copy of XYZ."

Like, copy the hooks cuz those work and they probably copied hooks, too. But

make sure your value is different because if you are just copying other people, then you don't really know anything or you don't look like an authority. And

if you if one person sees you copy a video, you are like ruined. Your

reputation is ruined in their mind forever. They won't trust anything you

forever. They won't trust anything you say because they'll just think it's copied from another person.

How many people should you copy for one video? Should it be like five different

video? Should it be like five different things from five different people? How

do you think about that?

Um, I always recommend like if you're posting as a business owner, some of that value and education should just be from your own personal experience and the results you've gotten. But

obviously, if you're like an educator on like a like a crime, for example, like what you kind of used to do, you don't make that up. That's just like based off

of resources. So, I would just say

of resources. So, I would just say multiple at least three if you're making like a short about it, but also just because if you're doing like something like crime,

there's going to be so much different information everywhere, so you kind of need to cross check things anyway.

What inspired you to do um your niche?

Um, was there anyone in particular doing it at the time at a high level? Oh, I yeah, I would say there's people like who like specialized in Instagram growth, but it

wasn't necessarily like short form content based, but I just I love it.

It's so interesting to me and I love marketing in general. Like I love people like Russell Brunson, a huge fan of him and anyone who just talks about funnels and how that works. So, I think it was

just an appeal to the niche. But yeah,

it kind of just all started from just posting shorts as well. Did you go to his events back in the day?

No, I was too young.

Yeah.

And now like does he do events anymore?

Probably funnel hacker, but like I don't use clickfunnels so or anything but I used to use go high level.

Yeah, I use go high level now.

Who's that made by?

I have no idea. But it's really good for like agencies.

What's one part of your childhood that you feel is really important to understand you and who you are today?

Yeah. So, we talked a little bit about loyalty so far. And I think growing up, I grew up surrounded by men who lied,

cheated on their partner, watched porn, and had wandering eyes. And I grew up surrounded by women who accepted it and said, "Ava, that is just what men do.

Ava, that's just a guy thing." And I refuse to believe that like men are resp like men are in control of what they do. Um, and I think growing up

they do. Um, and I think growing up surrounded by people like that, it just made me really really know that I could never be with a partner who does those

sort of things. And there's this verse in the Bible. It's like, but if he looks at another woman less flee, he's already committed adultery in his heart. If your

right eye causes you to stumble, gouge it out and throw it away. For it is better for you to lose one part of your body than have your entire body thrown into hell. If your right hand causes you

into hell. If your right hand causes you to stumble, cut it off and throw it away. For it is better for you to lose

away. For it is better for you to lose one part of your body than have your entire body thrown into hell. And it's

basically saying that mentally lusting after someone and physically being with after like with someone and kind of doing those acts while you still have a partner, that's

they're all cheating. There's not like certain levels. One's not worse than the

certain levels. One's not worse than the other. It's all cheating. And I think we

other. It's all cheating. And I think we live in a society today where there's just so much access.

So you're really able to see it's like a blessing and a curse because you're really able to see with all that access like who is truly

loyal and like And where do your morals come from? Like

have you always been religious from a young age?

Um yeah. So my parents my parents are amazing by the way. like

they raised me to be I had older parents.

They had me in their 40s, so they're older and I think them just being wiser when they raised me.

Definitely helped with who I am now. But they were always very consistent with things like church. Um obviously had like a

church. Um obviously had like a rebellious phase when I was like 13, 14, but I like didn't want to go to church.

My church was boring, but now I'm like very dedicated. Every Sunday I'm there.

very dedicated. Every Sunday I'm there.

Christian Catholic or Lutheran.

Lutheran.

But I'm not like I could be any, but I just go to a Lutheran church.

That makes sense.

Mhm.

And then you grew up with sisters, brothers or Yeah, I have an older sister.

Got it. Is she like on a similar entrepreneurial path or is that She's like We're kind of like equal opposites. She She's redhead. We look

opposites. She She's redhead. We look

nothing alike, but she is very dedicated. But when it comes to school,

dedicated. But when it comes to school, like 4.0, straight A's, graduated with honor. She just graduated college this

honor. She just graduated college this past um in May. So, but she's like going to be the best employee. Like, she is just I want her, but I know she'll never

work for me.

Very similar situation with my sister.

Yeah. She's like she's about to graduate college. She's like an becoming like a

college. She's like an becoming like a doctor of neuroscience. But like

wow.

She I wanted her to work for me when I was like 18 19 like to be a writer for the crime channel cuz she's the only person that can write like me. I think

like genetically speaking like it makes sense that she can kind of like think like me. Um but she's just we just clash

like me. Um but she's just we just clash super hard. Um

super hard. Um but what's your take on college as a 20-year-old that makes $700,000 a month?

I mean personally I hire based on experience not a degree. If you have results that is all I care about and the best companies actually I would say

bigger companies care about college like Google, Amazon but I would say a majority of businesses don't care about that. They care about

results that you've generated. And then

personally, I think if you're not getting a degree, like if you want a job that doesn't need a degree, then don't go to college. But if you want to be a dentist or a vet, go to college.

But anything else, just start right when you graduate. So then you can fail and

you graduate. So then you can fail and live with your parents until you succeed. And you'll have all those four

succeed. And you'll have all those four years just to fail, fail, fail, and you'll you'll eventually succeed. Um,

but I think college is a waste of time and money if you're not using the degree you get.

Finding success at a young age. I spoke

to Aman Godsy about this and he said that the one regret he had was Oh, I know where you're going with this.

Just kind of like never got to experience uh going to parties and like having friends and that kind of thing. Has that never really been a concern for you? And just if you knew that you were guaranteed success at an older age, do you think you would

have lived differently when you were younger?

I before I met or before I got together with Ben, I kind of had that phase of I just I I wouldn't say to the extent

you would have in college because I was still pretty young, but just not doing the best stuff um or just being too young to do certain

things.

But I kind of had that like party phase and I just looking back am I wouldn't say ashamed but I'm just not proud of

her and I wouldn't really want to be her. So, it just depends like if you

be her. So, it just depends like if you know drinking and doing that stuff is like what you think you'll look back on and that will be the good old days for

you, then yes, go to college, do your thing. But I don't know. I I personally

thing. But I don't know. I I personally think I'm probably have such a niche opinion on it. So, I most people probably wouldn't agree, but I just I

don't want my life to be I don't want to ever be like that again.

What's like the part of your life that you're like most look forward to every day like in your routine? Um, is there like anything that's super exciting for you or is there anything like upcoming

that you and Ben are doing that you're really excited for?

Yeah, I would say I have two parts of my day that I love. I love working in the morning. Um, drinking my coffee, being

morning. Um, drinking my coffee, being alone, and just like getting to do what I love. I think that's my favorite part

I love. I think that's my favorite part of the day. And then I love after work just hanging out with Ben. And whether

like we're hanging out or I love to read. That's like my one like guilty

read. That's like my one like guilty pleasure. I will read all the time. Not

pleasure. I will read all the time. Not

like business books, like just like regular books. And I just love reading.

regular books. And I just love reading.

Um, and there's this thing it's called book or like book talk or book Instagram where people just talk about books. I

love that. Um, yeah, that's my thing.

But anything with Ben. Um, and I would say like this might sound depressing, but like I just have like very few friends. Just have a couple like may I

friends. Just have a couple like may I would even like there's friends from high school that now go to college that like we'll hang out maybe three times a year. Those are like my friends, but

year. Those are like my friends, but like my true one friend is just Ben.

But I love Ben and I only need Ben. So,

do you give a lot of merit to IQ and success level um when it comes to social media or business? Like have you done IQ test?

Honestly no really. Like Alex and Ila would say they

really. Like Alex and Ila would say they don't consider IQ that important, but um I'm curious if you like think about it with your relationships if it's important for you to be a successful entrepreneur.

Um, I would say it's more just about like the person, their morals, and just basically when you look at someone, never believe what they say. Just

believe their actions and the results they've gotten people and what they do daily. And that's what I judge people by. And that's how I also hire people. So like, you're not allowed

hire people. So like, you're not allowed to ask in interviews, do you go to the gym? But that's illegal. But you can ask

gym? But that's illegal. But you can ask them like, "Oh, what are your hobbies?

Like, what do you do dayto-day?" Stuff

like that. And you can just see based off of that. Like what kind of person they are.

That's a really good piece of advice.

Yeah. For interviews, what other things do you ask that have been like golden questions?

Yeah. So, something I have done for a very long time, which I love, it's not necessarily a question, but I do tests.

So, for like copywriting positions or editor positions, we'll just do paid tests. Um, after we we'll do like the

tests. Um, after we we'll do like the application, we'll do a paid test and then if they pass that, we'll do culture fit interview.

What kind of test?

Just like if it's an editor position, we'll have them edit a short for the test.

Okay. Okay. You mean Yeah. Gotcha. I

thought you meant like personality test, but you mean like kind of like a trial literal test. Yeah. Yeah. Okay. Um, and

literal test. Yeah. Yeah. Okay. Um, and

those work super well just to weed people out because some people I mean I'm I can easily spot it now, but they'll just use Chad GBT on their application. So then they don't actually

application. So then they don't actually know anything. Um, so you can see with

know anything. Um, so you can see with test and weed people out really well.

Um, so that is my best my best hack.

How do you know if someone is using chat GBT when messaging you something?

Here are the phrases.

Here's the truth. Um, skyrocket.

I'm sorry. I'm trying to think of all like the terms you hear when Chachi writes something. Um, but here's the

writes something. Um, but here's the secret. It just says like you can I can

secret. It just says like you can I can now recognize like how it talks and like how it word stuff or like things like the double dash.

Double dash is clos like I see that in applications all the time. Immediately skip.

the time. Immediately skip.

It's unfortunate because I use the double dash in my writing and now I'm like damn it people think I'm using Chachi BT. But

Chachi BT. But yeah, we had an issue with that. Um,

clients were thinking that and we were like oh my god shoot. So we in our SOP it says no double dashes.

H interesting.

Mhm.

That was something I was going to ask you about, but I didn't want to make you look bad. Is like it like can this all

look bad. Is like it like can this all just be automated with chatbt or is it like actual grunt work?

I mean it's all grunt right now. If one

day it would be as effective, yes, that'd be great. But right now it's just not.

I've never been able to successfully train Chap Chad GBT to write how I write.

Yeah, me neither. I was able to at first when it came out like fairly well and then it just got worse over time. Like I

noticed chat like I don't know. It was

like it had too much.

I don't know. I think they dumb down the model honestly um to make them more money. Probably makes sense.

money. Probably makes sense.

But who's the most impressive person you've ever met?

Probably Alex Heroszi in person.

H.

And you've never observed anyone aside from Alex perhaps that actually No one I've met. If we're talking about like the question was, have you ever met, you know, someone

or seen someone like that? No, I

haven't. Besides Alex. I I haven't personally talked to Leela, but I bet she's the same way.

She definitely was. Yeah. Um

Yeah, it it was interesting meeting those two for sure.

They're very different, but they work well together.

Yeah. I think a lot of people assume they have different beliefs for some reason, but it's all pretty much the exact same stuff.

Yeah. I think they have the same beliefs and then her their skill sets obviously you're if you listen to both of their episodes with you, they're both about very different kind of parts. Like he's

obviously the visionary and then you know she kind of implements but like they would just obviously that works perfectly together. And then I guess

perfectly together. And then I guess last question here. Uh, what's the best piece of advice you've ever received?

Treat everybody like they're an undercover Jesus.

You'll notice how much better and kinder you are to people.

Treat everyone like they're an undercover Jesus. Where did you hear

undercover Jesus. Where did you hear that?

Some religious person online. I I don't remember who exactly, but all I know is little advice sticks, but that really has

cuz I used to just be the type of person who would like never compliment people, like strangers, never compliment strangers. I would just put my head down

strangers. I would just put my head down if I was walking past someone so I didn't have to smile. But it's

definitely changed the way I even handle like little interactions dayto-day.

How else have you found it useful? Yeah.

Um, I would never say like I was ever a mean person. Like I'm always kind of a people

person. Like I'm always kind of a people pleaser, but I find now that I'll go a lot more out of my way to make people on

my team or Ben or just anyone I interact with like just treat them better and leave a the best impression I can. I

can't explain it. Just treat everyone like they're an undercover Jesus. It'll

change your life. Well, everyone, uh, this has been your guest, Ava Jurgens.

Uh, where can people find you really quick?

Personal brand Launch on Instagram or A Jurgens on Instagram and pretty much all other platforms. This is the Jagil podcast. Appreciate

you coming on.

Yeah.