Risking It All: Inside High-Stakes Documentary Storytelling

I watched Silence of the Lambs the night before. Uh cuz I was like, "Okay, like

before. Uh cuz I was like, "Okay, like how do I how do I talk to people?" I was like, "Okay, she's behind glass like talking to Hannibal Lectctor and there's some distance." Everyone I knew was

some distance." Everyone I knew was like, "Are you safe doing this?" And I was like, "I don't know." Like I I I guess like I we'll find out.

We'll we'll find out.

Hi, welcome to the Unscripted Files. My

name is Maline Cunningham. I am a development producer in the unscripted industry bringing you candid conversations with the minds behind your favorite form of entertainment. Today I

have a documentary producer on the podcast and we talk a lot about high-risk storytelling. Whether it's

high-risk storytelling. Whether it's immersing herself in an unknown culture or coming face to face with a serial killer for an interview. We dive into all the ways she approaches this

ethically as a storyteller and as a producer. It's a really interesting

producer. It's a really interesting conversation. and can't wait for you to

conversation. and can't wait for you to hear my chat with Jennifer Tini.

Hey Jennifer, welcome to the Unscripted Files. How's it going? Pretty good. How

Files. How's it going? Pretty good. How

are you? Excited to be here.

Oh, I'm so excited that you're here.

Everything's good over here. It's It's a Friday, so you know, I can't complain. I

was saying I know. I was saying that I love your background. looks like the background of someone who is really welltraveled and it looks like a collection of a lot of different things which I can't wait to dive in with you.

You've been all over the globe for your projects.

I I've been to I've worked in um 80 I've been to over 89 countries and worked in like 40 maybe. That's crazy. The

passport is stamped, baby. We got it going on. I love that. I want to get

going on. I love that. I want to get into one one project that really stuck out to me when I looked at your IMDb was this project for Discovery back in 2020

called Expedition to the Edge. And it's

about this this family who is wants to sail to the most to the Northwest Passage like it would be it would essentially be the most north anyone has

ever sailed essentially. Right.

Right. Yes. So basically

it's really perilous. It's like a very perilous journey. It's not a joke

perilous journey. It's not a joke for sure. And so essentially how this

for sure. And so essentially how this project sort of happened was because the ice has been melting due to global warming for the first time they had this

opportunity. the Sea Gypsies, which is

opportunity. the Sea Gypsies, which is kind of a rag tag group of sailors, including a family. Um, and they've done all these expeditions all over the world

from the Amazon to Antarctica. And this

one specifically, it started, I believe, over in the Marshall Islands, and they went all the way up to Alaska and then made the journey. And the goal was because the ice was melting, they had

this very small window to be able to actually sail as far north. Then

potentially the goal was to reach Greenland to go all the way over. That

is so wild. It's like we I hate that the opportunity was there because of climate change but also so fascinating and really really risky. So how did So you were part of the development phase for

this and helping sell the project. But

how did you find out about this group of st like how did this project fall in your lap? The project fell on my lap

your lap? The project fell on my lap because I had previously worked on a project where it was called patrol with director Brett Algood and the you know I

was working in my development desk job and they called me up one day and said we have an extra seat on this puddle jump. We're going to Nicaragua. We're

jump. We're going to Nicaragua. We're

going to live there for a month. Like do

you want to come? And in that moment, I was like, I needed to get out of this desk job. And I said, "Okay." Like I I

desk job. And I said, "Okay." Like I I booked a flight, quit my job two days later, flew into the um northernmost tract of the Amazon, uh the India

reserve, and with a few people with Brad and other team Camo, and we were picked up from this small airport that had a dirt runway. and they came in their

dirt runway. and they came in their hollowedout canoes and they we threw our gear into these canoes and we rode into the rainforest and we essentially just

rode for a couple of hours and then they said, "Okay, this is where we're going to make camp." And it was a fully treelined area and they machete the the

tribe completely just cleared the area, swung hammocks and we lived there for quite a while. Every day had its own

challenges. But it definitely was a

challenges. But it definitely was a complete pivot from sitting at my desk.

But after that really had from that experience, I wanted to be making things. I think that was what I missed.

things. I think that was what I missed.

There's so much of the development process where you just want to be out there and you want to be physically making something. And that was what

making something. And that was what documentaries provided for me. And you know, in this this instance, it's like you just had to kind of take that leap and book the

ticket and go. And um so from Brad all good, I had met Nico Edwards who was part of the Sea Gypsies. And he had been filming their expeditions and really

documenting what they were doing and we were trying to figure out a broader audience for the Sea Gypsies project.

And so that's sort of how that came to be. um when they were deciding to do

be. um when they were deciding to do this one specific expedition, it made sense to have them film this entire expedition,

they were going to film it anyway. So,

taking that idea and then being able to try to get it to a bigger platform for a larger audience. No, it's really

larger audience. No, it's really interesting. So, this is broken up into

interesting. So, this is broken up into six parts for discovery, but did you also like package it as a feature too?

Well, so they the sea gypsies have have had many projects. They've had a film in the past. So much there's so much of the

the past. So much there's so much of the story as you know, you know, if you're filming for over a year, there's a lot more than six

hours of footage. So, um it's always a hard to be able to figure out and navigate like, okay, what is the story?

you know, there's a lot of other parties involved at that point. And so there's always going to be the story you you make what actually ends up coming out and then there's so many other versions

that could possibly be. So,

right. Do you think this project, this sort of limited six-part series with no celebrity attached, you know, no

well-known sort of TV talent would sell in 2026?

I would love it to. I think it's it's a little harder when you know I think there's such an appetite for ordinary people doing extraordinary things and you know there there's there's an

audience for that but I think as far as the landscape with limited streamers and networks you know they're they're wanting something that's a little bit

more splashier and which may not be the you know hero story from Iowa or you know the man next door or you know those types of stories, but there I hope that

there's more of a landscape for those types of stories moving forward. I do

too, and I agree. I understand the pitfalls of well, we want this, we need this to be highly returnable, we need it to be franchiseable, you know, we need it to be tentpole talent. But when I

look at this and I just look at sort of, yeah, we're going to spotlight this group or this family or this group of friends who are yeah, doing something extraordinary, taking a risk, doing

something that is has a time constraint.

It's really incredible. And I I want these projects to sell more. I want to see more of this. So I I'm hopeful for that. A lot of your projects seem to

that. A lot of your projects seem to have sort of even even not so directly right this project speaks to climate change and I know that a lot of your

projects tend to have an underlying impact storytelling piece. Is that

something that was intentional for you or just kind of happened because you are drawn to projects that have a larger message and effect? Well, I think the

for me I you know if the amount of work that goes into making a film I hope that it will say something you know whether it's on the social impact side or you

know something different and so the hope is that no matter the film or if it's short or if it's scripted you know doc

series or whatever it is podcast that whoever's listening will be able to take something from that apply to their own life or just change the way they think

or feel about something, open their eyes to a new group of people or a culture that they've never heard of before. Cuz

I think especially in the documentary space, we have this ability to share a glimpse into people's lives that most audiences will never have crossed

paths with. So, you know, you're taking

paths with. So, you know, you're taking these taking audiences that maybe have never gotten a passport, have never left their home town, their home state, and

you're able to bring them into a world that's completely unlike their own, yet there's so many similarities to the individuals and the protagonists and the people that it really opens up their

eyes and their world, even even if they're they're not leaving their couch in their living room. Um, you weren't on the crew for Expedition to the Edge. You

weren't on the boat, but you mentioned before this project where you were extremely immersed in the storytelling and what you were doing. I want to dive

more into that project and what it means as as a storyteller, as a producer to take up space in another culture, how you approach it, how you do it

responsibly, how you approach these creatively and also ethically.

Absolutely. So, specifically for patrol, the beloved directors of this, one of they one of them lives in Central America. Um, the other one did Peace

America. Um, the other one did Peace Corps work in Nicaragua. So they're very and they speak the language. So they're

very deeply connected to the subject.

And so I think that's something that's that can be tricky in the doc landscape because you think if no one's going to tell this story like can't I you know

but I think there's there's also the question of making sure that you're telling the story. You're not coming in as this outsider and you're spending the time with the individuals and you're

surrounding yourself with a team of people that you know whether they're from the community or they're well-versed in the subject. I think for documentaries,

subject. I think for documentaries, every single film I feel like I get a master's degree in that subject and it's all thanks to the people that are on the

film, the subjects on the ground. And I

think you have to approach it any new project with just complete transparency and curiosity because like you're coming in sometimes you know nothing and you're like I'm I want to

learn everything and I want to be on the same page as you and to be able to better tell your story. I love that. If

you don't mind, can you give me a top line of patrol? Like what was your goal there? what story you were trying to

there? what story you were trying to tell as you guys went and lived with with this culture and with these people.

Yes. So, patrol is about the illegal cattle ranching in Nicaragua. So,

conflict beef is a big issue. America is

the biggest buyer of conflict beef in Nicaragua.

Conflict beef. I'm like, this is it's the Drake versus Kendrick. That's

literally what I've never heard that.

That's crazy. So, if you go to the grocery store and you read the label of a beef product, sometimes it doesn't necessarily have to say where it's from.

And so I believe there's new laws and regulations where companies have to actually address where where the beef is actually from because if it's from

conflict areas similar to palm oil with the orangutans and borneo and different things like that where um there's actually like chalk that needs to be like ethically sourced from places too

and like a lot of products will now say like where they're actually sourced from. So, so the the project was

from. So, so the the project was essentially about this group of indigenous individuals who came together

on a patrol to kind of go up against the the government and the illegal cattle ranchers that were coming in and destroying the last tract of the Amazon, which is their home. And there's a lot

of communities that live in in this region and it's a reserve, but they're not being protected because unfortunately cattle ranching is a big business and

they're coming in and they're burning the rainforest. You know, we we learn

the rainforest. You know, we we learn this in kindergarten that the rainforest is, you know, essential. um is the lungs of the earth, you know, but it's the

age-old story that people are out of greed are, you know, destroying forests that are, you know, interfering with wildlife and communities of people. So,

the story was really just highlighting and shining a light on that.

Did you find yourself ever in a risky situation and how do you guys handle that, you know, when you're in the middle of conflict? Yeah. I mean, what is So, how do you handle that? What I

want to hear about maybe a situation that you were in that you had to think on your feet and make a smart move.

Right. Well, a lot of it so one of the shoots that was in Nicaragua that I was I was not there for thankfully. Um the

directors they were shooting there in the India reserve and a hurricane for the first time climate change. A

hurricane actually crossed oceans jumped uh Nicaragua and the entire reserve was just completely obliterated and they were stuck there and they had a

satellite phone and they were told too late that someone like that what was coming cuz they had no idea when you're in the forest. Um, when we were there, we had a satellite, one satellite phone,

and that was the only way to contact the outside world. You were sort of just

outside world. You were sort of just off- grid. And so, you're having to deal

off- grid. And so, you're having to deal with, okay, how do you charge batteries?

How do you do you have a generator?

Like, what are all these things you need? Meanwhile, you're completely

need? Meanwhile, you're completely getting mauled by ticks and um mosquitoes. And, you know, it's it's

mosquitoes. And, you know, it's it's definitely it's not for the faint of heart. And you know at night we would

heart. And you know at night we would hear jaguars circling the camp and they're like do not leave your hammock like just stay tight, you know. And so

there were so many instances you're you know you're in order to take a shower you're you're in the canoe the hollowed out duck canoes where the monkeys are pooping in it and you're you've got a

bucket of water with these crazy like piranha fish in the in the river and you're trying to like just clean yourself with water and you know it's

constant everyday challenges.

So on top of that, you know, the environment of it all. Um, you're you're battling a lot of things. So thankfully,

like on that shoot, we didn't encounter, you know, too much of a military or government push back, but I know things have changed a lot now in the country. I

mean, listen, you wanted a break from your day job.

Yeah.

Something interesting and immersive, and so you definitely got what you asked for, but it's but there's also like I think of the technical challenges, too.

just around like even little things like keeping your keeping stuff charged, offloading your cards, like I just think like even those pieces I'm like how are

you guys logistically managing this and I know it happens all the time but as a I just can't imagine sort of those because it's a risk too as well right

like with your media. Yes. And that's

something that I know at at one point there were, you know, the drones were confiscated. You know, there's things

confiscated. You know, there's things that happen and you're like, okay, you have to in these types of scenarios.

This isn't this isn't like a larger budget film where they've got, you know, three months of prep leading up to it and what have you. You're like, it's so run and

have you. You're like, it's so run and gun. Like if you know if the cops are

gun. Like if you know if the cops are trying to confiscate your cameras, you've got to like have the camera all the media cards like tucked in on your clothing so like they don't confiscate

those or you know different different things hiding things hiding memory cards in your shoes and different things like that. But that's it's there's definitely

that. But that's it's there's definitely a risk but it's also it's interesting with um any of the true crime stuff too.

It's like you're some of these cases, you know, like you're encountering a lot of situations that I don't think most people would voluntarily put themselves in. So,

in. So, yeah. What do you feel like was your

yeah. What do you feel like was your biggest takeaway as a storyteller from that particular project?

The biggest takeaway was um integrating and really being on the ground. I think

there's there's a lot of times where on projects you're working remote and you you're sending a team out, but I think to better understand the people, the

story, the community, it's imperative to actually be on the ground. And I know a lot of times you're sent out in the field and what have you, but it's like

that's such an honor to actually be meeting the subjects and be living how they live and really integrating into

their lives. And I think it it really

their lives. And I think it it really helps to be a better storyteller because you're able to have a glimpse of their POV and better

help tell their story to the world. and

whatever platform that may be. I think

that that's super important because everyone's lives are so different. And

having that opportunity to actually sit next to somebody in their home or in the jungle or, you know, be eating what they eat and, you know, just walking a day, you know,

in someone else's shoes, as the saying goes. I think that's the biggest

goes. I think that's the biggest takeaway. And I think it's it's hard

takeaway. And I think it's it's hard sometimes because our lives are so busy and we get swept up and everything, but it's like if you have the opport if you

get the call that there's a seat on a puddle jumper going to the jungle, like take it. Like just say yes. And I think

take it. Like just say yes. And I think that's the whole thing with like serendipity, too. It's like you

serendipity, too. It's like you serendipity doesn't just happen while you're sitting at home. like you have to actually walk outside of your house and for things to happen. So, and that's

also the best way to hear and learn about stories too. So, it's just actually I love that taking that chance. So,

I love a say yes attitude always. I want

to know, let's take it back because I want to know, you know, what led you get this call to get on a puddle jumper, but why you like what experience has, how did you get into the industry and what experience led you to the point where

someone was like, Jen is the person we need to call? Well, um, growing up, I loved movies. I I had always wanted to

loved movies. I I had always wanted to work in some aspect of film. Um, behind

the camera, I loved taking pictures and, you know, making videos as a child. and

um love the Wizard of Oz and was just really inspired by, you know, Singing in the Rain and these movies that are like about the making of movies and you get this little glimpse into like what it

would be like to actually work behind the scenes in the movies. And so I I went to college in the South as a student athlete, but I grew up dancing and so I always wanted to work in

Where did you go to school?

University of Alabama. Roll Tide. Oh,

you did roll tide. Okay.

Yep. Um, so I was on the dance team there and but I knew I wanted to come out to California and so every summer during college I came out and interned

over the summers and um that's sort of how I got the start of just like okay like what is the path and I sort of took

the unconventional path. Um, I right off the bat, um, was worked for a director and then was just sort of navigating my way through the narrative development

space. One of my first jobs was at RKO

space. One of my first jobs was at RKO Pictures, which they had a moment. I

think they just consolidated again, but that was just such a again. Yeah. Um, but working at at some

again. Yeah. Um, but working at at some of these like iconic places, I ended up was over at Warner Brothers and it was just the like walking around the studio

lot is just like no matter how many times you're on the Warner Brothers lot, it's it still feels special. It still feels like this magical place. Whether there's

nothing shooting there or there's a lot shooting there. it any chance you can go

shooting there. it any chance you can go and walk around their like their their prop area with their store with like all of their different things from like the

Casablanca piano to the chandeliers from Phya. I think that's what's there. Um

Phya. I think that's what's there. Um

but so that's sort of how I got my start. I was on the um the development

start. I was on the um the development side, worked a bunch of different production companies and then one of the one of the development jobs I was uh I

took my vacation and I was like I got to just go do something crazy, something so different and I'd always wanted to go to Kenya and so during my allotted week

vacation that I was given um which people should take more time off that's a real thing.

I went and I taught at a school in Kenya and um the when I got there the teachers were on strike and so they're like we actually need you to teach like can you

teach math and science and all these different things and um wow the um after teaching um for the week I the the school really really wanted a

music program and so I was like okay like I am not musical I played piano when I was like five but like that's it like I'm not maybe I was like I played violin in like middle school cuz we were

forced to pick an instrument. But um but so when I came back to LA, I ended up being put in touch with two women working on a documentary about recycled

orchestra called Landfill Harmonic and originally approached them to expand that project. The recycled orchestra

that project. The recycled orchestra that could be expanded to all different territories, could we go to the school in Kenya? So much opportunity there. and

in Kenya? So much opportunity there. and

they said, "Well, we're not going to do that until the film is done, but you can help us with the film in the meantime."

And so, I got to work helping them with whatever I could. And I learned so much about the documentary process, you know, an independent documentary trying to

raise financing, but also had this huge impact campaign with it. and you know seeing the direct impact of the community that was associated with the

film, but also people that actually you know watched it and that was something that really that sort of just was this huge pivot moment where we were the film

ended up showing at AFI Fest and we had they brought in all these kids from around Los Angeles to fill the Chinese theater and it was completely packed. I

think there's like 900 seats in that theater maybe completely packed 900 with kids from the community and the film is mostly not in English and you had kids

from all over the community and it completely just opened the eyes of everybody and it's like oh this is what I want to do like it's not just

entertainment there's also this underlying message and there's there can be a takeaway to a film while still be

entertaining and And um the I met Brad all good for the patrol project on that project and as many things go it's who you know and they're like do you want to work on this like I know you like to

travel like here's this and and I think that's something too is which has helped me a lot along the way is just being very nimble if you will where my friends will call me and be like where in the

world are you like that's the their the best thing because I'm like in India or like oh I like I'm somewhere. I'm in

Nicaragua or wherever it is. And I think that's definitely helped because being able to just pick up and go, I think that's I don't know how much longer, you know, that will last. So really trying

to savor that moment in time.

Yeah, I think being a yes, like I said, being a yes person is a huge deal and being able to not ask too many questions and just go is the way a lot of incredible things

get can get made.

Absolutely. There's another project that you have that's really fascinating um that's a it's a podcast but it's falls in the unscripted space. It's

really a true crime project. Uh where

you had to investigate tell the story of the did you say it was the female Charles Manson the Charles Manson of South Africa or

something?

I want to hear about Queen Havoc. Like

this is so fascinating to me. So, Queen

Havoc is one of the many projects that has taken many different forms. And I think that's that's something that's been a big huge learning lesson of this where now when there's a project, you

have to say, okay, what's what serves the story the best? Is this a podcast?

Is this a a short documentary? Is this a scripted project? Like, what is it? And

scripted project? Like, what is it? And

also, is there a project that you can start with to then hopefully use that to launch pad into other projects?

Mhm.

So a lot of there was this a boom in podcasting and a lot of companies were utilizing podcasts as a way to you know

test out stories per se. But also there was a there was a moment where a limited series were also very popular in the

podcast space. And during that time, I

podcast space. And during that time, I worked on Quain Havoc with School of Humans and iHeart. And we had the incredible opportunity to actually

physically go to South Africa and record this podcast. And initially, you know,

this podcast. And initially, you know, we had set up interviews and everything was, you know, we had a pretty packed schedule going in, but we also gave

oursel the flexibility where, you know, once you start talking to somebody, they're like, "You've got to talk to this person or we got to send you here, here, here." And so it just started as

here, here." And so it just started as this like, you know, we started in this one spot and we ended up bouncing around to all these different people and we ended up getting so many more interviews

because we were open to meeting new people. We weren't so strict on the

people. We weren't so strict on the schedule, which I know that can be hard sometimes to break out of, but yes, but we really allowed ourselves to just

sort of let the project take us where it needed to. And we ended up getting able

needed to. And we ended up getting able to to meet Quain Havoc herself, Cecilia Stein, in prison. And so that was such a I was going to say, is she incarcerated?

She is incarcerated. And um so essentially they 2019 I think that's when they actually went to prison. So this was a recent

story and it it's you don't really think that when you're you know so many podcasts are done from your home, you know, like you're not actually going out

and interviewing people in prison and what have you. And um that was also something where I I love being out in the field and I think it takes a certain

person to be like sure like I will walk into this prison and sit down with somebody. Um

somebody. Um and you really have to you have to have a certain level of courage to just go okay like I'll do it. Yep. And just

figure it out. And um that project specifically, I I remember I had no idea what it was going to be like going into

the prison. I'd never been to a prison.

the prison. I'd never been to a prison.

I guess looking back, I I I really had Now that I think about it, I had it that was my first time.

Never been to a prison.

So going to a maximum security prison in a foreign country is very different.

They have very different laws. And um I you know I had written down questions.

You can't have your phone. So like I'd written down questions on a note card like some you know beginner like person. I was like I don't know what like what I had put it in my

pocket and they're like absolutely not.

You cannot do that. Like we're not doing that. So you can't bring anything in.

that. So you can't bring anything in.

Mhm.

I watched Silence of the Lambs the night before cuz I was like okay like how do I how do I talk to people? Like I I know this is not the best case study for this, but I was like, "Okay, she's

behind glass like talking to Hannibal Lectar. There's some distance." I think

Lectar. There's some distance." I think that was the biggest takeaway. I was

like, "This is safe." Like everyone I knew was like, "Are you safe doing this?" I was like, "I don't know." Like I I I guess like I we'll find out.

We'll we'll find out. But I never felt not safe. But and you when we get in

not safe. But and you when we get in there the you just nobody is behind bars or nobody it's in it's in a room and they're she's just sitting next to you

like we're just a couple of gals chatting about the weather you know and it's just such a different such a different experience and I think because of that you know actually being immersed

in this world and you know sitting next to somebody you know versus over the phone cuz so much so much is over the phone now and so much is over Zoom and

um I think that's the biggest push is just to like get back out there and get back in the field. But

I totally agree with you. I mean I think some of the even and podcasts have evolved from our like serial days to now they are vodcasts on the homepage of

Netflix. But for me, even though it's

Netflix. But for me, even though it's audio only, that immersive piece, I think of I think of uh Up and Vanished and podcasts like that where Payne

Lindsay like was like, I'm gonna get in there like an investigative reporter and and it's very, you know, it's it's exactly what you were doing. And as a listener, even without these visuals,

knowing that you're in the space, knowing that you're there, it's so much more of a heightened experience. And so,

I agree. I hope there's more. That's

just we're we listen it all comes down to like budget which I hate to talk about but of course I hope that there's more understanding that these things are necessary right

did you feel in danger at all in the room or did it did it actually end up being No I mean it's definitely you're playing a game of chess to figure out how to

actually communicate and get information or just have a conversation knowing going in knowing what someone has done and like you're

just navigating that conversation is it's very tricky. But no, I I really didn't feel I mean, of course, there's moments where you know, in South Africa, there's load

shutting where they cut power in certain regions for certain times and like it gets dark and so like there's different.

It's just such a different experience actually being there and being immersed in that. the um no I don't think that

in that. the um no I don't think that it's I think there's always like the the cost of like the risk you know going into any of these projects where I mean you think about all the projects that

are nominated or you know these are journalists that are going into war torn countries and like they're investigating like these cases and you know and they're really putting

themselves in danger to tell the story and I think that's it's it's so admirable that it's like there's They just want to get these stories out there and this is maybe the only way,

right?

I think that's that's another level.

Listen, that would go on my CV.

Mhm.

Can interview serial killer under intense circumstances. Like that would

intense circumstances. Like that would go on my It's It's crazy because you think, you know, if you go going back to other jobs, it's like, well, can you answer

the phone? Can you do certain things?

the phone? Can you do certain things?

And I'm like, I I if you've worked on a documentary or any unscripted, you can pretty much do anything, you know, if if you can I agree. The skill set that you gain is

I agree. The skill set that you gain is crazy.

It is. You mentioned some other, you know, the documentaries now that are getting nominations and things. I'm

curious what you've watched lately that you really love or admire or, you know, any any documentaries that you feel like have really pushed the boundaries. Um,

I'm curious kind of who who you admire nowadays in the industry.

I mean, I think the big Jimmy Chin and Chai with Free Solo. I mean, I think that was the big that was such a big turning point, I think, where you have

you can have cinematic documentaries and that's such a good touch point because in that project, you know, you may be sitting on your couch, you may not be seeing a documentary in a theater, which

is like amazing if you do and there's the opportunity like to actually do that, but it was such a incredible film where you were brought into this world that you knew nothing about. I've gone

rock climbing in a gym a couple times, but like I know nothing about this specific maneuver.

Way harder than it looks, by the way.

Exactly.

Muscles are sore that you don't even know that you had.

Oh, it's so wild. And they did such a great job. And there's a lot of other

great job. And there's a lot of other documentaries like this now where they're really bringing you into this world where when they're actually doing certain maneuvers or like you know how

how big of a deal it is if they get it or you know in some of these like soccer documentaries where you're like I know nothing about this. If you teach someone a little bit of the mechanics of like

this crazy maneuver or this play in any of like the sports films or anything, it's like you're able to actually have audiences root for you and the people in

and it's like such a cool experience to take audiences along on this journey that you know they're going from they're going in knowing nothing and then by the end

they're like I can't believe he got this one hook, you know, maneuver. or

whatever it is. So, I think films like that I there's there's so many films that are hard-hitting and I think this year at the at the Oscars they said the

sad shorts or something. I think that's why they described Conan O'Brien described short documentaries.

Yes.

And I think the the hope is to, you know, on any of these projects that are very heavy is to have a little bit of levity to it and have some, you know,

some side of it that isn't doesn't make it as much of a a sad short. So, yes.

Well, and you you're no stranger to shorts. I know you have a ton on your

shorts. I know you have a ton on your slate. You mentioned something earlier

slate. You mentioned something earlier when you were talking about Queen Havoc about what form a a a doc a non-fiction project should take. So you have this

sort of marketplace strategy of what's going to work. But then there's also what what does the story deserve? What

can the story actually prop up? Is a

featured dock too long? Can we actually tell a more impactful story in short form? So, I'm curious, you know, when a

form? So, I'm curious, you know, when a non-fiction project comes across your desk and it's not quite so obvious what form it should take. It's just an opportunity. How do you go about

opportunity. How do you go about figuring that out? I think some of it depends on access and the story. So for

some documentary projects, I have some that are like putting ideas together from scratch is you know as most some people you as well like probably do where you're like this is just going

from a nugget of an idea like can this be expanded? Should it be expanded into

be expanded? Should it be expanded into a feature or is there really only enough story for a short? Um I think that's that's the

short? Um I think that's that's the struggle because you know features has um a better landscape to possibly sell and there's more platforms for features

but at the same time it's like are you really stretching this out too much where like you don't want your audience to go this could have been a short you know

but I think it's also depending on the story so for for some subjects they don't want to be on camera so it's like okay if you really have to tell this story, maybe a podcast is the better

route because they don't have to be on camera. And if you don't want to have

camera. And if you don't want to have half your film with blurred out faces, maybe that's the route. Or maybe it's a scripted project that is loosely based

on their story. Or maybe there's a different route that ser like serves the project better. Or maybe it's a piece of

project better. Or maybe it's a piece of the story that could be a part of other stories.

That's something too is, you know, is this enough of an idea for a full feature? I think that's like that's

feature? I think that's like that's always such a question and you want to your whole of heart says yes yes yes it is but

it's you know time will tell and I think that the other hard thing of recent is like there's so much pressure to know how the story ends like what's the full

story and that's also such a hard thing for documentaries where you know you think about I think the movie Blackfish the one about the the killer whales.

Pretty sure I saw an interview with the director that it originally was about the trainers. It was not about the fact

the trainers. It was not about the fact that these killer whales like all the conservation side of it sort of that wasn't really a part of the story until they started doing a little bit more digging and research and shooting and

they're like, "Oh, we have to pivot."

And that wouldn't have been allowed should that be somewhere that's like, "What's the full story? How does it begin?

What's what are the act breakdowns?" and

like what is this full scope and I think that's the flexibility I feel like has changed a little bit where everyone wants to know how it end you

know yes you can give it you can say yes here here's what we think but we also need the flexibility and the time to go okay like could this

pivot to be something better and I think if you have that ability which a lot of times falls with independent projects where you have right

you ha you're not you know forced into a certain container of what this has to be and that's I think that's the tricky thing is and the the push is to actually

be able to have that time to go give it some air and go okay is this the story you know are we closing the door to all these other

possible endings because we're set to this parameter of what it what you originally wrote the story as.

So, yeah, I think that's that's the hardest thing.

Luxury.

Yes. Yes.

Yeah. No, I mean, listen, getting to finding the story and getting to figure it out is a luxury, you know, in again an industry that's so riskaverse, budgets are tight, which is why the sort of doing a lot of storytelling on things

that are already adjudicated or it's based on an article and we're going to retell it, but like going into something that feels open-ended is a bit of a luxury. Um, but it's interesting. I

luxury. Um, but it's interesting. I

actually I feel like the era of the short dock is like about to explode in a big way. Regardless of Conan's comment,

big way. Regardless of Conan's comment, you know, Netflix is putting short docks on their platform. I think buyers are going to get a lot more um you know, hip to acquiring them.

I don't know. I I think I think they're about to have a big moment. And I say that as someone who has several in the works right now.

Yes.

Uh for and for a lot of different reasons. Again, it comes down to

reasons. Again, it comes down to funding. Can we get some brands on board

funding. Can we get some brands on board to back it? you there are quicker. It's

a lot of different factors, but there is there's beauty in obviously the doc feature and and there's a place for them. But I do think the short is gonna

them. But I do think the short is gonna and it's tough too and you know this doing the the festival circuit shorts get the literal short end of the stick on the festival circuit too. We're

starting to like there are shorts only festivals but they're typically not prioritized and features get all the buzz and like but I do think things are starting to change as

again as budgets become less and less resources become less and less but filmmakers are still trying to make things happen and so I think we'll start to see them get hopefully a little more

love on the homepage and at the awards.

I want to know if there's a world that you haven't dove into that you're curious about.

Well, I um think the Well, some some people are getting more into verticals, I would also like to keep pushing the short docks. So,

short docks. So, Mhm. While I have sort of been in a

Mhm. While I have sort of been in a bunch of different spaces, I I do think the short docs is a valuable space and especially with how things are moving

forward with verticals and you know with social media and how people are consuming projects as well. I think I think this short docs will have a resurgence or we will make it happen. So

we will make the we will make the resurgence happen.

Um, are you what's Let's see. I'm

curious to know like is there what Okay, you've been to 89 countries. What do you want to be

89 countries. What do you want to be your 90th? I I'm trying to hit 100

your 90th? I I'm trying to hit 100 countries this year. So, I have a Okay.

I know. I know. Um, I have never been to Japan. I know that's kind of a crazy

Japan. I know that's kind of a crazy thing. I think like

thing. I think like there's all there's like if if you've traveled outside of the United States, you've typically gone to London, Japan,

or Costa Rica, I feel like that's such a true Italy. Also Italy.

Italy. Also Italy.

Yes.

You've got this like convergence of those are sort of like the main places.

I feel like the bulk of people have been at least one of those.

And so I've never I've never been to Costa Rica or Japan. I I want my goal is to to climb Mount Fuji.

Um Oh, wow.

That's so I'm I'm hoping to do that this year. I know it's um it's a little hard,

year. I know it's um it's a little hard, but I'm up to the challenge.

You interview serial killers, baby.

There's There's nothing that's too hard.

I know.

I love it.

It's true. I love that. Well, it's been so amazing to hear your perspective and your story. What you do is so incredibly

your story. What you do is so incredibly important and crucial. So, I'm so happy that I got to have you on today to share. Thank you so much. And fingers

share. Thank you so much. And fingers

crossed for Japan this year.

It's gonna happen. It's I will I will summit Fuji this year. So,

I love it. Manifestations.

I feel the need to add many more to-do list bucket list things to my list this year. Thanks to Jennifer. Hope you

year. Thanks to Jennifer. Hope you

enjoyed that conversation. And don't

forget to like, subscribe, rate, review, and we will be back next week with another long- form conversation with another creative in the unscripted industry. Thanks so much. See you next

industry. Thanks so much. See you next time.