Riz Khan - Linguistic imperialism?

by travelpod member helen welcome is the english language actually destroying the

world's diversity rather than uniting it the term globish has been coined to describe how a global version of english has grown in popularity and it makes people ask whether the widespread use of english is hurting the linguistic

cultures of countries or promoting multinational ties due largely to the economic cultural and military dominance of Britain and the United States English has become the world's language when it comes to conducting international

business and diplomacy there are an estimated 328 million native English speakers and as many as a billion people around the world learning it as a second language but at what price

to their native language and cultural roots on today's show we ask is the worldwide spread of English promoting global understanding or is it simply linguistic imperialism you can join our

conversation by calling into the show or by sending us an SMS or an email now joining me now for the discussion is journalist and author Robert McCrum who's in addition to co-authoring the international bestseller the story of

English has just written globish how the English language became the world's language he's in London and in Copenhagen we have Robert Phillips and a linguist and professor emeritus at the Copenhagen Business School he's best

known for his research which denounces linguistic imperialism and looks at the relationship between language and power gentlemen I welcome you to the show and Robert McCrum if I could start with you there in London and just get a quick

summary of what globish is it's a term that I guess many people wouldn't have heard yet well globe is not my term it was invented by a Frenchman in fact who was

in Japan in the 1990s and what he spotted in when he was in Japan he was a man called Monsieur Jean Paul Maria he spotted that when non-native speakers

Japanese speech speakers of English used English in conversation they did better linked conversationally with Koreans and Vietnamese and say well other non-native

speakers than they did with English or Americans in other words the non-native speakers do better when they when they have a slightly simplified version of the language than they do when they talk to somebody who has it where there's more nuance and

more variety and he kind of term globish and I borrowed it let me ask you that what the difference is between this language well what's the difference between globish and pidgin English what

a pidgin is is some is the first generation of contact language between peoples who are not from who are communicating with each other who don't who don't share it so a pidgin what will

it will evolve in some like the Caribbean on the slave ships during the during the period the middle during the slave trade and then period the middle passage and the creole is then the second generation pidgin but a pidgin is

is much more it's a contact language is much much simplified and what what I'm talking about in globish is something which is more of a lingua franca okay let me bring in professor philipson here sound good to have you with us - they're

from Copenhagen and asked if everyone learned globish wouldn't it have a wouldn't that knowledge have a Democrat a democratizing effect on those who aren't already native speakers of

English well I agree that the Frenchmen who invented the term is right that people often understand others who are

using English as a foreign language more easily than native speakers native speakers make far fewer concessions to other users of English but this doesn't mean that the kind of approach that he

has to learning the language is relevant for learners of the language in other words there's no quick fix to learning English if English is a school subject if it's used in in higher education in

universities then what people need to have is competence which is related to the the diversity of English when it's used by Americans by Australians by South Africans by Indians they need to

be able to understand the diversity of types of English whereas in terms of what they need to produce they need English which can express their own cultural identity and their own specific

needs and the needs of the business community which this French guy was particularly focusing on are very limited by comparison with what general education does okay well the Robin Makram we had an

email if I may put to you from from Bangladesh we are viewers right and you know from around the world Michelle Ahmed wrote in saying English does not pose any threat to the cultures or mother tongue of the countries it infiltrates and

those countries choose to give it away how much how much power does a country have to stop the onslaught of English in your opinion Robert well I mean obviously a country like France for

example they become very defensive about the spread of English in within French culture but III must say I agree with the gentleman from Bangladesh mother tongues are very very powerful it far

more powerful than I mean globish English is it's a it's an asset it's a very ephemeral it's very it's very limited as dr. Phillip Sanders pointed out it has a very limited role and I think we should also at this point draw

a distinction between the written the spoken but I think the truth is that the mother tongue is that is the essential tongue and so that in Bangladesh and all

across India you'll find the ordinary man and woman will be using them other tongues in the home on the street and in all kinds of social situations but if

they need to communicate with one another for business or cultural purposes across India then they will then default - globish okay Robert a quick thought in your book you say essentially that the English language

has become a source of of power in itself and you highlight how people in countries all over the world are taking the language out of its imperial context and appropriating it for themselves and

you use al Jazeera as an example explain how mmm sorry can you repeat that last but must be up to you you cite al Jazeera as an example of that of how the

English language is used as a source of power in a way explain what you meant by that having a bit of trouble with it

with the hearing yeah um with Al Jazeera I mean now how would you say a channel like Al Jazeera you know you're saying it can be used English language can be used by outside sources that don't have

it as a native language and then they utilize it as a sort of effectively as a power would create a sense of power with it well I think in the case of Al al

Jazeera and of course like any other global TV station it's a way of spreading ideas and and and the infinite the cultural influence of a station

through the language and of course it I think one of the one of the phenomena we have to deal with at the moment which is absolutely new in history of the planet

is that for the first time in our in recorded history it is possible for the English language in some form to be both transmitted and received anywhere on the

world I mean this this program could be transmitted probably as being both transmitted and received all over the world and it will be and there will be within a radius of its of its reception

point somebody or meant more many people who will understand it and that is an absolutely absolutely unique phenomenon it's a it's a real breakthrough in in

understanding and I think those of us I don't believe myself believe that it's necessarily going to be a source of global harmony but I think that you have to agree that if people can talk to each

other then this is a step forward okay well dr. Philips on an email to you may funny sir this came in from a viewer by the name of a Rizvan Khan saying members line through the it says though the

colonists are long gone English has stayed and flourished because all new technologies invented and introduced by those who speak it as true the technology is often very English centric why do you think that is when there are

such big consumer markets outside the english-speaking world I don't think that's correct in any case I was in Korea last week and I tapped one key by

mistake and that meant that or what was on the screen then was suddenly Korean rather than English so it's it's not true that all invention is taking place in English but I had to come back to

what was said earlier because al Jazeera presumably also functions in Arabic and that's because there are very large numbers of people who have Arabic as their main language who do not

understand English and when I talk about the risk of English being an imperious language one needs to remember that any language can serve either good or evil

purposes it's a question of what functions it has and when for instance Robert McCrum writes in his book that english is the language of ordinary

people as well as the language of power and authority well it is the language of ordinary people but only in countries like the United States Great Britain South Africa no not even South Africa

because english is the language of power here and most South Africans cannot use English and this means that the history of the British Isles of the United

States was trying to impose one language at the expense of others and largely succeeding most of the indigenous peoples of America and Australia have been forced to assimilate to English or

French and this means that this was also the pattern that was attempted in the colonial period in much more diverse context and has not succeeded in the same way but it does not affect that

english is the language of the elite and not the language of ordinary people okay we have Ramsey on the fine from on the phone rather from Ramallah Ramsey what

would you like to ask I wanted to comment on the situation of the Arabs unfortunately I feel that the use of the

Arabic language has deteriorated and Arabs and the Arabs education assistants have to pay more attention to the proper

resources we Avera Bukh I don't mean ancient classical Arabic I mean modern Standard Arabic to be able to absorb English as a second language and still

maintain their cultural identity so they're you know a push and a pull and you have to write Rumsey that's an interesting point and actually Robert McCrum there's an interesting you know point there about Arabic and it's very

common in Hindi movies in Bollywood for example for more and more English words to creep in and it's now almost this sort of combination of English as of as it's often called mmm-hmm and yet and

the same thing happens in singaporean english and hong kong english it's it's the capacity of the language to infiltrate the local language and you can either deplore this and see it as

dr. Phillips and I think implies see it as a sign of Imperial dominance or you can say it's a it's it's just the nature of the language and it's it's it's a harmless and I don't think I mean I

think they get the give away in his remarks is here when he refers to the Aboriginal peoples of America and Australia I mean yes of course the settlement of North America and of

Australia and other parts of the world involved terrible genocides of local tribes and there's a great a great need for the preservation of the of the language of those tribes but generally

speaking the imposition or this settlement of English around the world was not of that of that sort and the point of my book is to say that actually

in the 21st century my point what I'm trying to say about the 21st century is that really for the first time you find really probably see there in your

travels that you'll see people using English without really any sense of the linguistic imperialism that dr. Philips and refers to him it's now being used in

a much more neutral way and I think there is a case for saying that glavish is for the first time comparatively imperiousness free will get a response from the professor just

remember we have to take a short break when we return a look at that and also look at how perhaps languages are dying around the world and what might be done to preserve them we'll be right back with more of our discussion in a moment don't go away

welcome back we're discussing the global spread of English and its effect on world languages and culture joining me our journalist and author Robert Crumb who's joining us from London and linguist Robert philipson who's joining

us from Copenhagen and dr. Phillips and I want you to get a response to what Robert Crumb was saying about the more general use of English rather than this or imperialistic use now as I bring that up but also it's interesting to know that the language most spoken by native

speakers is Chinese which is by far the largest and I wonder if you could also add into that the thought of how Chinese influence around the world which is growing might actually have an impact on the way Mandarin and perhaps some

Cantonese might actually emerge in language culture as well okay but I disagree with the analysis of Singapore

because all instruction is through the medium of English in schools in Singapore from the beginning of school from grade 1 and this means that the ancestral languages meaning Chinese

Malay and so on are only learn two subjects so that the pressure on people to drop their languages in favour of English is massive and it's now the case that half of the families of Singapore

actually use English as the home language so there's very clear evidence there that because of government decisions English is being promoted at the expense of the other languages and if you take the Arab world which there

was a question about in a moment ago there are many elite Arabs who go to English medium schools often anglo-american schools and who go to universities which use the English

medium exclusively and this of course is part of the explanation for why the Arabic language has not been developed as a language of science and technology it is of course used in business English

is not the owner is can we talk about coming to the mouth so here on one second Robert just let the professor finish and I'll come back to you in just a second professor going I've been to

the Emirates a couple of times and in the Emirates many kids who arrive at an English medium University who are Emiratis meaning wealthy have not had their Arab developed enough in school because they've been doing with medium schooling

and their English isn't good enough either and this is a crazy situation it has to do with government's not thinking through their own language policy how to get people really competent in a local

language and how to give them in addition really good competence in English interesting point and Robert I want you to respond to that and also the fact that I guess people are pushing for English as a language they can have a global competitive advantage when it

comes to doing business absolutely I just want to take up the case of Singapore the case of Singapore is very interesting it's like a language laboratory and I've watched it for the no not closely not not for obviously not

as closely as dr. Philips and I've watched it reasonably closely over the last thirty years and of course the language policy of Singapore does reflect essentially an authoritarian

regime making it no doubt bad choices but the the attempt by Lee Kuan Yew who I interviewed actually many years ago was to try to solve the linguistic

incoherence of of the island and the island itself is a country as it is o is our state which has been trying to benefit its people economically through this very well they've tried different

things they tried Mandarin and then they've gone back to what they call the English first policy but it was it was done in good faith I think by the government which is indeed an authoritarian government it was an

attempt to liberate the people from the ink in coherence of the linguistic inheritance okay look at the caller in from the UK Imams on the line with us go

ahead please go ahead please a man oh yeah nice to speak to you good to speak to you les mu passion huh yeah I'm

always African I came from Sierra Leone and then we have 16 languages in Sierra Leone and 16 tribes with different olives but with a communal force of

English in Sierra Leone it made it very easy for us all to have one general language so that's a very big what

should I say it's kind of an advantage for us so to say English is becoming an increasingly I don't believe at all it's very good

for the world okay let's go to have one English for one language that will we are we all came out in kicking it mom let me let me let me put that question to dr. Philips and also with an email

that touches on that from the UK from Tariq al Basha who says does the decline of other languages in exchange for English have political and economic outcomes for those countries and I wonder professor

what our view of Imam they were saying along with the serve email it suggests that there may be some benefit then if there is if the language is replaced by something like English well obviously

the proportion of people in former colonies in both the British and the French colonial countries in Africa is very very small and clearly english is the language of power that's why

everyone wants to learn it that makes sense but on the other hand when for instance a writer like Gogi from kenya has been a very successful novelist in english and chooses to write novels as

an alternative in Kikuyu it's because he wants to reach a different audience and if you want all of the languages to thrive because they're important for people's heritage their new lead

policies which in fact encourage multilingualism in education not either or not either african languages or English and this is exactly what is being done in many parts of the world

and interestingly just to go back to Lee Kuan Yew he now regrets not concentrating more on Chinese because as you mentioned earlier Chinese is in fact incredibly important and is increasing

importance and the Chinese know that actually dr. Philips in a quick question for you about what what is coming out as fairly disturbing news experts are saying that by the end of the century half of the world's roughly 6,000

languages are likely to go extinct that's about one language dying every two weeks and I think earlier this year the UN identified 18 languages with only one remaining speaking out how would you

describe what the impact is for the loss of a language for a national people well there's a pecking order of languages in any given country and English happens to be at the top many

places but not everywhere there's a need for many languages but the pecking order means that if English is dominant for instance other languages Swahili may be

important in Tanzania and then the rich diversity of hundreds of languages in countries like Nigeria and Tanzania will be disappearing as time goes on and that

is a tragedy because knowledge of how to manage biodiversity cultural diversity are embedded in the languages and that's why it's important that the risk of half

the world's languages being out being finished by the 2100 or even more is in fact a very considerable one because of mismanagement of language policy in the

country in particularly in education a Robert McCrum we had an email from Greece if I could put you from Vicky nikolaidis who wrote in saying I'm fortunate to have English as my first language yet I'm sad because the

language isn't particularly flexible enough to meet the needs of different cultures now I wonder you know when you have this kind of situation where people say it's you know English is an advantage but of course it has its limitations is it just simply a case

that people have no choice but to embrace English it's the language of the air is the language of the sea it's the language of so much technology and still dominates the Internet is it a case of having to literally embrace English with

no choice yes because I mean I think that's true obviously there is a sadness involved in this one but one regrets that but it's clearly it is a lingua franca and that's what that's as Latin

was a thousand years ago that's the role it plays and it had it had it brings with it problems and obviously for it for that for your Greek correspondent

it's a disappointment that it's not more flexible and more useful to her but and but she had you know she had her mother tongue and she probably knows other other languages from the region so that

English is to get back to the multilingual point it become as part of a menu of options linguistic options available to agree to a Turk to a

Cypriot and if they agree can the Turk which that wish to communicate about something of serious consequence politically or economically they will they will default to probably that's defaults to the lingua

franca which is English and that is in my view promote some kind of harmony and that's probably a good thing okay professor just a minute to go so I just want your view on you mentioned about the poor policies of governments in terms of preserving their languages is

it simply the responsibility of governments or is there another way to police the loss of these languages and loss of linguistic strength that that certain nations might have just a brief

answer well obviously there should be much more bottom-up movement because people who speak as a small language typically do want to maintain their language and one knows from the way Welsh and now Scots Gaelic are being

promoted much more in the United Kingdom that this is not at the expense of learning English but I'd like to say one more general point and that is you don't get far in in Latin America with English

you don't get far in southern Europe with English so the idea that English is the only really important language in the world for cultural economic political and all sorts of other purposes it's simply not true there is a

much greater linguistic diversity okay well gentlemen there I have to stop you on fortune because we're out of time a fascinating conversation we conducted in English I wish we could have done it in others but thank you very much for

joining us thank you very much thinking of the pleasure thank you thanks thanks for being with us and remember you can follow the show on Facebook and see what we're up to there you can give us your feedback on the topics and post your

questions and comments on the next show divided democracy as voters in the United States prepare for the midterm elections we examine the stakes involved and ask is the vote being hijacked by big money and

political extremists on both the right and left be sure to tune in for that for me and the team we'll see you next time