Sales vs. Finance: What Great Business Partnership Really Looks Like

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From DataRails, this is FP&A today.

Welcome to FP&A today. I'm your host, Glenn Hopper. Today on the show, we're

Glenn Hopper. Today on the show, we're doing something a little different. If

you've spent any time in FP&A, you've heard the phrase finance business partner thrown around. It's become one of those aspirational titles that everyone wants on their LinkedIn profile. But what does it actually look

profile. But what does it actually look like in practice? And more importantly, what does the other side of the table actually want from you? Here at FP&A today, we decided to find out. So we

brought together two people who live this relationship every day.

Stephanie Troy is VP of sales at DataRails. She started as a senior

DataRails. She started as a senior account executive about 4 years ago, and has worked her way up through the team lead, sales manager, and director before stepping into the VP role earlier this

year. She talks to her CFO daily. She

year. She talks to her CFO daily. She

knows what sales people need from finance, and where that partnership breaks down.

Swati Bagri is head of FP&A for a major global FMCG company, covering the Middle East and Africa region. She's a

chartered accountant with 14 years of experience at some of the biggest names in consumer goods. She's also a returning guest. If you caught her

returning guest. If you caught her previous episode, you know she brings serious insight to everything from zero-based budgeting to commercial finance strategy. Today, we're putting

finance strategy. Today, we're putting them in conversation with each other.

What does sales actually want? What does

finance need sales to understand? Where

do they align, and where do they clash?

This is the first in a series we're calling business partnering in practice.

We'll be doing similar episodes with marketing, IT, and operations down the road. Let's get into it. Ladies, welcome

road. Let's get into it. Ladies, welcome

to the show. Thank you. Thank you. Happy

to be here.

Let's start with a fundamental question.

Stephanie, this one's for you.

As VP of sales, what do you actually need from your finance team to do your job well? And you can be honest here.

job well? And you can be honest here.

Where do finance teams sometimes fall short? Yeah, good question. I think

short? Yeah, good question. I think

something that sales leaders need and sales teams in general is just revenue visibility. So, clear insight to what's

visibility. So, clear insight to what's going on with the economics of the business when we're thinking of customer acquisition cost, payback, LTV by segment, things like that. I also think

deal economics is super important. So,

understanding which deals drive long-term success versus short-term success or short-term revenue. I think

it's super easy to bring in a quick sale, but if that quick sale isn't what's best for the company, then it's obviously not something we want to be selling or what's healthy for the business. Um, so along with that, that

business. Um, so along with that, that kind of goes into strategic guardrails.

So, strategic guardrails, I think is something that every finance leader should be speaking to their salesperson about or their sales representatives, sales team, sales leadership, all of that. We all want to be aligned with

that. We all want to be aligned with what the company needs and what's best for the company and the forecast model.

I think the forecast model is typically where finance and sales meet. We talk

about head count planning, we talk about revenue coming in, predicted revenue, things like that. So, I would say those are the things we need. Where finance

falls short, I would say sometimes it's just lack of reality of what's going on in the world or sales process. I think a lot of the times departments can stay pretty separate and they don't get involved in what the day-to-day looks

like. For good reason, everyone has

like. For good reason, everyone has their role, but in reality when we're talking about forecasting, finance having a grasp on what a deal cycle looks like for that company, what the

economic situation for buying impact is right now is super important, too. So, a

lot of the time, I think it's lack of visibility is maybe where finance can fall short and the truth is uh the inverse is true for sales, too. Lack of

visibility into what finance wants. So,

I'm I'm curious to hear what Swati would say there. I'm sure you're going to ask

say there. I'm sure you're going to ask her that next, but yeah, I would say that's where it falls short and kind of what we need from finance.

Yeah, and I think what you hit on there is something that I I can think back to my earlier finance roles where in finance you can kind of be in this ivory tower of what we're just we're finance,

we do our thing over here, and the rest of the business is happening around us.

And I think actually going out, working with the other organizations, with the other departments, and understanding what happens there gives you a level of appreciation for what goes into that.

And I think that's a big part of of business partnering. So, Swati, how

business partnering. So, Swati, how about from your side?

No, and I totally agree. Like, I've been in in in the finance field for last 14, 15 years, right? And I've seen that transition happen. The entire spectrum

transition happen. The entire spectrum or the expectation of finance has changed from being the accounting and doing work in back end to actually becoming business partner. And I

remember very early in my career and uh MD uh in one of my uh companies came to me and said that either you're sales or you help sales.

So, at first I thought like, what a weird thing to say to somebody in finance, right? But over time I've

finance, right? But over time I've realized that what he meant was that every function in the company ultimately kind of supports growth and it it exists to support growth. So, for me, I think

as finance business partner, it means moving from being a score keeper of the business and like kind of being an audit keeper or gatekeeper to being a co-pilot. And um

co-pilot. And um at the end of the day, it's not just about reporting numbers, right? It's

about understanding first yourself as finance, how the business actually makes money, and uh and then supporting the sales team to be actually able to make money and with all the things that

Stephanie kind of explained, it may be slightly different in an FMCG world.

Like, you know, you need to know how promotions work, how retailers negotiate, how what the consumers demand, uh and these are the things that actually drive the P&L, right? It's it's

different, but it's still not so different when it comes to different industries. So, the expectation kind of

industries. So, the expectation kind of remains the same, right? And when we as finance are able to do that, I I I really feel that the partnership is

really strong and we actually become a partner to the growth and and, you know, not just a gatekeeper. Yeah, well said.

And I um I guess thinking of an area of where potential conflict could come up would be pipeline and the accuracy of the pipeline and what we call the

pipeline and all that. And I know, you know, from FMCG, it's a little bit different than a a SaaS platform, but maybe, Swati, let's stick with you and I

think I guess you're dealing more with like product innovation pipelines. And

Stephanie, you would deal with like deal pipelines.

How do you each handle the reality that, you know, the forecasts can be optimistic or, you know, when they first come in, it's got to be a partnership in understanding those

pipelines. So, I guess, Swati, sticking

pipelines. So, I guess, Swati, sticking with you, what are your thoughts on how to smooth over that that pipeline communication between product and

finance? To be honest, I've seen um

finance? To be honest, I've seen um obviously when, you know, sales team or commercial team comes in, they come out with a lot of optimism. Uh but for me, I think looking at it over the number of

years that I've had, I feel like it's not necessarily a bad thing, right?

Sales team are naturally optimistic because their job is to kind of pursue opportunity and push that growth, right?

That's their job expectation. And if

everybody in the room is very, very conservative, I think, you know, companies would never take risk. Like,

we wouldn't grow, we wouldn't innovate.

And that's where, like, finance should come in or it actually, from my perspective, comes in to bring that structure to that optimism. So, in in FMCG, for example, we we deal with

something called innovation pipeline, right? When a new product or idea is

right? When a new product or idea is presented, we are very excited with the early volumes, strong adoption, rapid growth kind of a thing. And our role

finances to kind of slow down and ask questions. Not stop the idea, but ask

questions. Not stop the idea, but ask questions. Like, you know, it could be

questions. Like, you know, it could be things like, what repeat purchase behavior can we expect? What happens to the margin once the trade promotions and retailer margins come in? One thing that

has really helped me is to separate the ambition from the commitment.

And ambition should always be big, and I agree. But that and that's where, like,

agree. But that and that's where, like, the organization will move forward. But

the company still needs a base forecast that supply, production, operations, like, literally everybody in the value chain can rely on. And that's where finance can come in and and provide that

visibility and that groundness to the whole process. So,

whole process. So, um I always feel like ambition will build the pipeline, but assumption will build the forecast. So, instead of arguing whether forecast is optimistic, we build multiple scenarios. And

scenario planning is my favorite thing to do even now.

Uh being in the region, that's where, like, it's like literally every day multiple scenarios. So, that's the way I

multiple scenarios. So, that's the way I think, uh you know, business can responsibly drive innovation and growth without losing the ambition. Really, really well

said. And I think, obviously, again,

said. And I think, obviously, again, different between FMCG and and SaaS, but Stephanie, on your side, looking at the pipeline, looking at the forecast,

there's the annual plan and then your your quarterly forecast and all that.

Maybe walk us through management of that pipeline and where the communication is between sales and finance on on tracking that and and on forecasting. Like who's responsible for

forecasting. Like who's responsible for what and how do you how do you get aligned? Yeah, I think what Swati said

aligned? Yeah, I think what Swati said is actually very spot-on. I tend to be a little more conservative in my forecasting approach where I think others on my team are a little more ambitious, but there's no point of a

forecast if it's not as close to accurate as possible, right? So, we we have to have a reality there and something in between. So, I tend to focus on deal quality and pipeline quality rather than pipeline size. I

think most traditional forecasting systems they teach you in sales or that you learn through other companies or bigger companies in the world is that you know, you take a percent of what's in the pipeline based on the amount of deals that are in there. We look at uh

previously sold, we take that percent and it's an equation, right? But that's

just not the reality, especially in the software space in the market we're in today with AI, how quick things are changing. So, for me, it's having a

changing. So, for me, it's having a really good grip on pipeline quality and that's hard to do as the bigger the company you get. So, stage progression, economic buyer engagement, competitive

positioning, deal timeline credibility, things like that are super important. I

follow what I consider a more traditional approach uh approach, which is commit and upside. So, I submit my commits. My commits mean basically 100%.

commits. My commits mean basically 100%.

I'd say 99.9%. There's always that, you know, 0.1% of the deal might go not go through, but commit means it's coming in. My team can count on me for that, my

in. My team can count on me for that, my leadership team. That's what I'm

leadership team. That's what I'm reporting to my C-suite, my CFO specifically. And then we factor in a

specifically. And then we factor in a percent of that upside. How many deals we have in our pipeline that have a shot, whether it's this month or this quarter, depending what we're looking at. And historically, out of that

at. And historically, out of that upside, what percent closes? So, that's

kind of how I get to my forecasting there. So, I look at again my commits, I

there. So, I look at again my commits, I have my team submit those. We have a pretty strict process in what's considered a commit, what's not. It has

to have certain things done, right? We

have to you know, be in the signature process.

We have to have confirmed vendor of choice. We have to have legal process

choice. We have to have legal process done. We have to have negotiations done.

done. We have to have negotiations done.

All of those things to be in place to consider it a commit deal, but yeah, I would I would say I take more of a conservative approach rather than just counting everything in commit and upside. Otherwise, we would definitely

upside. Otherwise, we would definitely over promise under deliver. So, I think it's it's finding something in the middle there that works for both and then trying to pull historical data as

much as relevant, but again, in the software space things are changing so quickly right now.

Every quarter is almost quite different than the last and how deals were sold, why they were sold, why people bought.

So, forecasting is just dynamic in our business. We forecast on a monthly

business. We forecast on a monthly basis. We run our team to a quarterly

basis. We run our team to a quarterly quota, but I do forecast monthly to my finance team. Okay, and you said when we

finance team. Okay, and you said when we were talking before the show, you you said you're talking your CFO every day about a healthy deal versus just closing anything and just that open line of

communication that you have. I'd love

for you to unpack that and explain, you know, from your side what makes a deal healthy and how does finance come in and and help with that as needed? Yeah, it's

such a balance and I think this is what really the VP of sales should be doing in every company is doing what's best for the company while bringing in as much revenue as possible. I think when you you know, you think down the sales

organ, you think starting as an account executive or a salesperson, you don't care what you're selling. You want to get as many deals on the board. You want

to grow your number, things like that.

But as we go up the ladder and we think of doing what's best for the business, healthy deals is one of my main conversations I have with my CFO. And

that communication with the CFO is so important because I don't know what's best for the company in that sense. I

know what what a good client looks like.

I know what a good customer looks like.

I know someone who's going to implement well, who's going to be engaged in our platform. But down the line and the

platform. But down the line and the economics of it and the stickiness of that client, that's really where I need my CFO's advice and well hey, these deals ended up being profitable for us or these these are the deals we lost

money on. So, I think when you're

money on. So, I think when you're starting off on talking about healthy deals for a business, it's starts with reflection. What didn't work in the

reflection. What didn't work in the past, right? What didn't work, what did

past, right? What didn't work, what did work, who are our top clients, what do those deals look like, what what was that sales process like, what was promised to them, what was communicated, all of that. But, I would say for a

healthy deal what makes it up is definitely right customer profile, clear business value, sustainable pricing, has expansion potential and low risk for return. Those are definitely I would say

return. Those are definitely I would say specific to the software space, but those are kind of what we look at when we're doing or considering what's a healthy deal or not. And then of course, there's always deals that are a little

unhealthy that come in where we have to get really close on negotiations. Maybe

we go under to bring the client in for the big win and then that's when I meet with my CFO and discuss is this worth the risk, right? Is this maybe it's a big logo, maybe it's a big sports team, we want to bring them in, but we're

going to lose money on it, but is that going to help us in the long run and grow our business, right? So, that risk there is really what goes into the aftermath of not selling a healthy deal and talking about it. So, I think

finance comes in a lot there when talking about the margin impact, what my discount thresholds can be. I like to talk to my CFO every quarter. We have

we call it like quarterly list pricing and then I give my director team what they can approve discount-wise. So,

those discount thresholds help us know if we're in profitability or if we're in the negative, things like that. And then

just overall long-term revenue quality.

So, those are typically what I'm talking to with the CFO about for healthy deals.

That's great and that's you know, you love being on the the other side of the table on the finance side. You love

having a head of sales who's thinking like that and and having that open dialogue. That's

dialogue. That's uh really refreshing to hear and I get and Swati, I think you're dealing with a whole other level of complexity in what you I mean, you would think

at FMCG trying to figure out what the complexity is there beyond just what's in the industry, but if you're handling Middle East and Africa, that means you've got currency fluctuations

because of all the countries, you've got geopolitical instability, complex supply chains. I'm sure I couldn't even

chains. I'm sure I couldn't even imagine.

So, how do you communicate risk to the commercial teams without being seen as a department of no? Because if they're looking at, you know, this is our These are our goals here regardless of everything else that's

going on. It's It's got to be an

going on. It's It's got to be an interesting balance there. I mean, I'm I'm glad that we're having this conversation now when when you know, not just the usual currency fluctuation

and geopolitical tensions are on a high.

We also have supply chain disruptions, right? Like

right? Like It's It's difficult to get product in a company like ours where, you know, products come from different places. So,

in my capacity, if I just highlight risk, it's easy to be seen as a team that blocks the idea because at times you need to use a different source to get your products in, and that could mean increase in cost, right? And it's

It's It's Um it's very normal when you have a market like Egypt which is in hyperinflation. So, that kind of adds to

hyperinflation. So, that kind of adds to the pressure as in how do you forecast how much to sell?

You know, what kind of margins do you want to give? What kind of discounts do you want to give, etc. So, what I've learned in the process is not just about identifying risk. It's also translating

identifying risk. It's also translating it into something actionable. So, you

know, without sounding like I don't want to support you. But the way to proposition this is to This is This is risky, so we shouldn't do it. I I I mean, I would never say this to my sales

team, right? I would say, "Okay, so if

team, right? I would say, "Okay, so if currency moves by, let's say, 10%, this is what happens to the margin, but we have guardrails that our margins needs

to be, whatever, let's say, X%. Right?

What are the things you can do? 1 2 3 as in your plan A, plan B, plan C to ensure that we go back to being on the same margin. Could we adjust pricing?

same margin. Could we adjust pricing?

Could we think of an alternative source?

Could we think of launch timeline if it's a new product? And and when when you approach it like that, it is not shutting the idea. You are helping the

sales team make a more informed decision, I would say. And I I really think that's the role of finance, right?

Helping the business see the corners. I

mean, and not closing the road completely. So, this is how I like to

completely. So, this is how I like to work and especially being in this region and in in so much of, let's say, uh changes that happens constantly around

me. Yeah, and with all this complexity,

me. Yeah, and with all this complexity, you still have to have have a forecast.

And I know the complexities around forecast again a little bit different.

So, Stephanie, you mentioned that your deal cycles what, 20 to 60 days and like when we spoke before the show, you were saying a quarter of your Q4 deals didn't even exist until

mid-December. And then, Swati, you've

mid-December. And then, Swati, you've got these longer product development timelines that when you start down the road, you don't know what the situation's going to be. So, I'm wondering how the rhythm of

be. So, I'm wondering how the rhythm of the businesses shape how you work with your counterparts. Like is there

your counterparts. Like is there I don't know that I I know very different industries, but I wonder if there's anything each industry could learn from the other. And maybe uh Stephanie, if you want to take first shot at this one. Yeah, I'm sure there's

more we can learn especially too. I our

typical deal cycle is about 20 to 60 days, but we do have some enterprise deals that are much longer than that, right? So, that's just I would say the

right? So, that's just I would say the normal range. So, I'm sure there's a lot

normal range. So, I'm sure there's a lot I can learn from Swati and how she has her team forecast to her as well and how they predict pipeline. But for us, as you can see, it's highly dynamic. We are

in a very high velocity space especially specifically in the FP&A space. That is

a really quick sales cycle compared to other tools in our space. So, my team is is working a lot of deals at once. It's

extremely dynamic. Deals appear late in the quarter like you mentioned, they don't even exist in our pipeline. So,

that's another piece of forecasting that we learned. Hey, walking into So, for

we learned. Hey, walking into So, for March is a great example. We're at the end of Q1 right now. Walking into March, I'm midway into March, I have a pretty good idea of what my quarter's going to look like right now. But, I know there's

probably going to be anywhere from five to 10 deals that still don't exist that are going to close this month. So, and

that's based on historical months. And

in Q4, it's even bigger as you can imagine. Q1's a little different, but

imagine. Q1's a little different, but so, we're we're we're thinking things like that. We're predicting things.

like that. We're predicting things.

We're getting basically daily updates at this point. I'd say the last like 15 to

this point. I'd say the last like 15 to 20 days of the quarter, I'm collecting a daily commit and upside for my directors, who are collecting it from their AEs, and they're more in the know with, you know, boots on the ground their deals. So, momentum can shift

their deals. So, momentum can shift quickly, and then I'm having those conversations with my CFO. Not only my CFO, but my onboarding team, my customer success team, right? How much can they prepare to take on? The CFO's also

having those conversations with their team when it comes to head count. So, it

affects everything. We always know like in software, quarter end is massive compared to month end and things like that. Um so, we're finance and sales

that. Um so, we're finance and sales where we meet is forecasting weekly, discussing weekly, analyzing deal velocity, tracking pipeline creation mid-quarter. We're looking at, okay, all

mid-quarter. We're looking at, okay, all the ops we've met with this week. And

this week's a great example. We're on

the 18th right now. So, looking at this week, how many ops did we convert into qualified ops? Okay, out of those

qualified ops? Okay, out of those qualified ops, what do we think is going to close based on historical close at this time near quarter end. So, it

definitely comes down to a model as usually everything does, but we're looking at that, and then um we're looking at other timelines, too. It's

just, you know, what what's the market doing? How are people buying software

doing? How are people buying software right now? Are people making quick

right now? Are people making quick decisions right now? Are they not?

Again, with AI, everything is changing.

I would say what both sides can learn though in working together in this, especially in my company, is just long-term planning discipline, and knowing things can change super quickly, and being agile, but again, being

realistic. So,

realistic. So, I think I really like what Swati said earlier about sales drives the ambition, but I think you said finance drives like the reality. I think that's super

the reality. I think that's super important as we're getting closer and closer to quarter end, especially in a business like ours, where things are changing truly on a daily basis.

Yeah, Swati, I think that's a a great handoff point to you on on your side. I

totally agree with what you said, Safi, right? And and for me, I think

right? And and for me, I think forecasting rhythm is kind of very much shaped by how quickly business converts the decisions that you take, right, into revenue. So,

in FMCG, if I talk about it particularly, I think business development cycles are usually long, obviously never like 40 to 60 days. Um

it can take some months, sometimes even years, right? Because, you know, there

years, right? Because, you know, there are decisions like CAPEX that needs to come in, which will also depend whether it's a greenfield project or a brownfield project, and that could take up to years. Right? So, forecasting

happens a lot earlier, when let's say when I say around pipe, innovation, distribution, consumer adoption, etc. And we spend a lot of time aligning on

assumptions, and not just the numbers.

Uh so, I I I feel like in industries with shorter cycles such as yours, FMCG could probably benefit from

frequent pipeline reviews and agility. I

I feel given that we have such longer innovation cycles, for example, we are not as agile to act and not very easy to change assumptions because we spend so

much time uh reviewing the assumptions.

Uh while I believe what, you know, more uh industries with shorter uh let's say timeline or deal cycle could learn is more structured scenario planning. And

like you rightly said, you need to have your models in place to be able to give all these scenarios. And and consumer goods have been doing this quite a lot.

So, at the end of the day, I think forecasting is just to mimic the tempo of the business.

In FMCG, the tempo is a bit slower compared to let's say a SaaS company where the tempo is like 20 to 30 days.

And and yeah, so for me, I think that's that's how forecasting mimics the business.

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So, what happens when sales wants to launch a new product or enter a new market? Maybe sometimes

on the first pass of it, you see the numbers just aren't aren't quite working. Can you push back

working. Can you push back constructively and still, like you said earlier, you still want to support innovation, you don't want to be the office of no, but there's got to be uh that well, this is this is kind of

going back to exactly what you you discussed before. I think this is where

discussed before. I think this is where um finance partnering kind of becomes interesting, right? If if numbers don't

interesting, right? If if numbers don't stack up in the first pass, I I believe the idea is never to shut it down immediately, right? Uh I think the first step as finance business partner

is to usually understand where the assumptions are driving the economics, right? Like, is it pricing? Is it cost

right? Like, is it pricing? Is it cost structure? Is it expected volume growth

structure? Is it expected volume growth uh that you need to bring. So, once you start peeling the onion, and that's the term that I usually use at work as well, like let's peel the onion, you start to

have much more constructive conversation with the sales team, and sometimes even a small change can make a big difference. Like, it could be a bit of a

difference. Like, it could be a bit of a pack size, it could be the margin, you know, having a differential margin with your distributor, and changing the pricing structure, changing

only to a few trial market initially, seeing the results, and you know, and then then bringing going full go live, right? Or or rethinking the promotional

right? Or or rethinking the promotional strategy. I've seen quite a few ideas

strategy. I've seen quite a few ideas that look viable on paper, but after kind of reviewing the detailed assumption and the go-to-market approach, they didn't turn out to be

successful. And it is And some which

successful. And it is And some which didn't look good in the first pass turned out to be really successful launches. So, so as finance is not just

launches. So, so as finance is not just about evaluating these idea, it's also helping shape it become more commercially and financially viable in long run. I think too, I want to comment

long run. I think too, I want to comment on something you said that's important.

I think sales leaders often can have these big ideas and ambitious thoughts, and you know, what they want to do with the product, or what they want to bring it to the team, and things like that.

But you mentioned something that is key.

Sometimes the smallest movements make the biggest impact. That is something I really like to look at data-wise with my CFO as well, as looking at like if we increase conversion rates by 1%, how

much does it actually impact revenue? If

we do just a slight price increase here, price increase there, whatever it is, or maybe price this differently than we did last quarter, but we up this one here, and we don't charge for this anymore.

It's those small things and those small tweaks that make, I think, actually the biggest impacts and drive long-term success, because it's not completely stopping everything you're doing, or stopping your tried and true. It's

adjusting, but it takes flexibility from both sides. It's And I think

both sides. It's And I think traditionally CFOs are risk averse. We I

mean, And work in the the company I'm in now, we sell the CFO. So, that's all who we're talking to all day long every day and we're hearing their point of view on this and it's it's interesting. But, if

you have a finance leader who's willing to be flexible and a sales leader who is willing to maybe not go for the big thing and just try the little things at first, I think that's really where the magic happens between sales and finance because

like you said, it's sometimes the smallest things make the biggest impact.

Yeah, and to be honest, usually when I talk to my sales partner, I use this kind of emotionally verbal to say like, we're working for the same company.

We're trying to achieve the same objective.

I'm trying to help you. Let me help you help me to help you. And that

conversation really makes a lot of difference. When you make them believe

difference. When you make them believe that you're trying to achieve the same objective and and you need them as much as they need you.

So, so yeah, that that really shapes the conversation and and so far I've seen that it drives like the best results.

And at the end of the day, if the sales aren't coming in, Yeah. one of not a vote for here. So, it always does come back to revenue to an extent. So, I

think that alignment and that recognition of being on the same team and we're all working towards growing this company is is exactly what's needed.

And as I'm listening to you guys talk about this, I'm picturing the finance approach when you need to change your number. You're just in the model and you're you're trying to pull

these levers that are just happening in the model, not out in the real world.

And Stephanie, as you were going through that story, I'm thinking sales market sales marketing go to market.

Yeah, which I've the groups that are actually dealing with the customers might have a better idea and understanding of what that customer demand actually is and what product mix

resonates with the people that you're you're trying to close the deals with and everything. Whereas, in finance,

and everything. Whereas, in finance, it's just, well, what if I change this from 12% to 13%? And it's you know, it's not really based on anything other than trying to get that end result. And as

you're going through product mix and pricing, it's like, yeah, you can do all this in the model, but whatever happens in the model isn't reflective of what the demand's going to be out there. So,

that's kind of an That's an interesting way to look at it. That's why like finance having an understanding of the market is so important cuz as you said, it's so much easier said than done to be like, well, Stephanie, tell your team to

increase their conversion rates by 3%.

It's like, trust me, I would if I could if it were that easy, right? So, it's

it's having that understanding of reality and that and then the time it takes to get to that reality. We're

always trying to improve like conversion rates or whatever the rates may be, close rates, whatever it is, but it takes time to get there. It takes

training, it takes rep development, it takes the right head count, the right team, things like that. And And one thing that I've also seen working very well is actually going out in the market, sitting in some of these

discussions with uh with let's say the customers, the distributors, you know, having being part of these margin negotiations, being part of these innovation and launches, etc. You know, traditionally finance was a back office

job, right? You would never be present

job, right? You would never be present there, we would never have these kind of conversation. And what I've seen and

conversation. And what I've seen and that has helped me also to be a better business partner, I would say is actually going into the market, understanding how our products are placed, having this conversation regularly with the sales team.

You know, and that also kind of reflects when I do these scenario planning that I may say that, you know, 2% here and 2% there, but that may not be a reality because I've sat in these distributor

negotiations and they will not budge in even 0.5% forget 2%. So, these things I I believe like it's industry agnostic, every finance

person to be a better business partner needs to be present in and understand the cycle in and out. Only then they'll be able to add the real value. Yeah,

absolutely. And actually, before we move on, I do think, Stephanie, maybe from the flip side of that, if you need head count or want to invest in some new sales tech or, you know, wherever

you need a capital allocation, what's the most effective cuz you have to you have to kind of be a sales person to some extent to finance. So is there a what's the most effective way to make

the case and what mistakes maybe do sales leaders make if they're if they're pitching for additional resources?

Right. It's funny you say that. My

leadership team will joke like here she goes into pitch mode again. So it's

you know, you're always selling us something but it's I always tell them like everything in life is sales, right?

You're always you're always getting something you want but um it's different if it's head count. We do have a capacity model. So we're looking at

capacity model. So we're looking at that. We're looking at

that. We're looking at what our goals are, right? Do we need to is it head count that's going to help us get to our goals? Is it working at or making our team more efficient now and things like that? So I would say for

head count it totally depends on the company's goals.

Um for me you know, account account executives are willing to take as many calls as you get them. So it's never the idea of will

them. So it's never the idea of will your team work harder? It's do I need more people who are going to work just as hard to get to those goals? So for us I would say it is as simple as a capacity model. If it's something that

capacity model. If it's something that I'm asking for new tech or uh something to enable my team for more sales enablement, I'm coming to the meeting with my CFO with facts, with data, with

risk assessment. What is the risk if we

risk assessment. What is the risk if we don't do this? What revenue are we what pipeline leakage are we having by not doing this? What are we leaving on the

doing this? What are we leaving on the table? Things like that. So I think it's

table? Things like that. So I think it's very matter of the fact of here's the data. This is why we need it. This is

data. This is why we need it. This is

why I personally believe in it and put my name behind it. This is why it's best for the team and why it's best for the company. As the VP like I mentioned

company. As the VP like I mentioned earlier, talking about healthy deals I always think what's best for the company and then what's also going to get us the most revenue and I try and meet the idea either in the middle or maximize both.

So usually when it comes to spending more of the company's money, it's showing up with data, facts solid reasonings and I only present something I believe in. If it's

something I half believe in, I'm not going to bring it to my leadership team.

I'm not going to waste their time and I'm most likely not going to waste their money, you know? So it has to be something I'm fairly certain that it's going to make an impact on the team.

Yeah, and everything you guys are saying, I mean, this sounds like perfect business partnering, and we're all I was talking to a guest the other day. He

said, "We're all shareholders. We're all

going for the same goal here. It's not

about This isn't what finance wants.

It's what, you know, or it's not what sales wants. That's what is best for the

sales wants. That's what is best for the business." So, finding that that

business." So, finding that that business partnering relationship, and I do think it's really come a long way from the Stone Ages back when I started in in FP&A, and I'm wondering

and I'm I'm going to put you guys on the spot a little bit or ask you to call someone out on the on the carpet. But,

either of you have examples of business partnering where maybe it hasn't gone so well or, you know, just compare and contrast going well versus a one that

that went poorly. And from your approach, what or from your vantage point, what separated those two experiences? Whichever one of you has a

experiences? Whichever one of you has a has a story, I'll let you jump in, and then we'll see if Are you may both have one, so I'll pick.

Stephanie, do you want to comment on that, and we'll You know, every company's different. I think it totally

company's different. I think it totally depends if you're in a really large company, if you're in a startup, if you're what your leadership structure looks like. I think in in some cases in really

like. I think in in some cases in really large companies, sales leaders may not even have that direct connection to the CFO. It may be totally separate where

CFO. It may be totally separate where they're reporting to the CEO, and CEO gets something from the CFO. So, or so that to me, that's bad business practicing right there partnering right there, right? If you don't even have

there, right? If you don't even have that direct connection to the CFO, or if you don't have those weekly conversations, if you're only going to them for either deal escalation, commission approvals, or like, you know,

one-off like situations, that would be my worst example of business partnering.

It's just lack of communication and lack of alignment, you know? I I don't know.

I I'm trying to think of a specific example. Maybe one will come to me.

example. Maybe one will come to me.

Swati, do you have one that comes to mind? Um look, I've been on both side of

mind? Um look, I've been on both side of the spectrum, right? And I I would say the the difference is quite striking.

When I was in India, and this is obviously long back, and finance has evolved since then.

Um I was involved in a product launch, uh which was an extension of a chewing gum uh category uh in India.

And uh you know, we ran the numbers, the margins were extremely tight because because of the way the commercial team or the sales team came in with the amount of promotion they want to do, the cost of distribution, and you know,

where they want to be present because chewing gum is a category where you want everywhere, right? You want it literally

everywhere, right? You want it literally at your aisle, you want it in uh GT, which is very big in India, etc. And margins are extremely different across

different uh channels. So, instead of stopping the discussion, I mean, we sat we sat together, unpacked each of the assumptions that the team came with. We

looked at pricing tiers, we looked at pack sizes, which cities we could launch. Like I was earlier explaining

launch. Like I was earlier explaining that, you know, we could we could pick and choose and see where are the assumptions not making sense. And And

And once I think the sales team saw the numbers clearly, they started adjusting their strategy themselves.

We eventually decided a tiered uh margin strategy for different channels and also different pack sizes.

So, I would say because we were brought in earlier in as finance in the discussion, we were able to launch a very big category which became a sizable

contributor to the gum business of a company which was not the market leader in India. Uh so, I I feel like uh the collaboration did not feel like an approval process. It felt like, you

approval process. It felt like, you know, together together we are going through the assumptions, we are trying to work it out together because the ultimate objective is to kind of launch the product, to expand the

category, to grow the business.

And yeah, that's how that's the that worked really well in the end. But, I

have also seen cases where finance was not involved. Like Stephanie, you

not involved. Like Stephanie, you mentioned rightly, right? There are

companies where you know, the sales head doesn't have a direct relationship with the CFO. And

that's when, you know, the finance team are brought in really late to the conversation.

After you've had multiple round of conversations with about the deal or the strategy with the distributor, with external partners, etc. And at that point, if finance raises a

concern, it may feel like we are being blockers or, you know, we are we we are not taking risk. We don't have We are risk-averse, etc. Right? And that

naturally creates some tension. So, I

think for me, the biggest difference between good and bad business partnering is the timing and the mindset and and that makes all the difference.

Yeah. And as you were talking about that, I'm thinking we're in this calm spot where we're depending on if assuming you're on a a calendar year for

the planning cycle, but last year's or this year's budget is behind us. We've We've already put it.

behind us. We've We've already put it.

Now, I'm sure we're already doing reforecasts and and everything around around that, but it's too early to be thinking about the 2027 budget.

So, maybe this is a good time to bring this up and maybe we can plant a seed with our listeners. And I guess because our listeners are primarily FP&A folks, we'll we'll stick with you for a minute,

Swati.

As we head into planning season for next year, what does finance need from sales during that time to be able to build realistic forecasts?

What's your expectation? What's sales

coming to you with? And then

maybe it's more collaborative, I don't know. But, what's the baseline that you

know. But, what's the baseline that you want from from sales before you even get started?

I think before we move to the numbers, Uh, one thing that each every in every company finance and sales need to work together is to answer a very simple question, which is where is our growth

actually coming from next year. Once

that story is clear, numbers will follow and they'll follow more naturally. Uh,

and then you can go about answering all the questions about competition, demand, uh, margins, promotional intensity, etc. But, what are the things you would do as

sales to be able to drive that growth is the most important question that I feel like we should answer together and see if it is realistic or not.

Yeah, and Stephanie, from your side, when we think about the numbers, like you don't start building a budget and then have an annual plan. So, I think senior leadership gets together, you

make your annual plan, the budget comes from that. Uh, so

from that. Uh, so where does sales fit in the planning process? It's not It's I know it's not I

process? It's not It's I know it's not I mean, yes, the company wants to grow every year, but it's not just pick a magic number that we grow to and or maybe it is and you say, "Okay, we can

do that if you give me these resources."

I guess from your side, what role should sales play in the in the annual planning process and what should they come to the table with?

Yeah, we actually did something a little interesting this year. Uh, we did a leadership offsite, which was basically everyone in the company, VP level and up. Actually, we did director level and

up. Actually, we did director level and up. We went up and we met up in person

up. We went up and we met up in person with our C-suite and we did this in November. So, talking about kind of

November. So, talking about kind of going into 2026 and we they said, "These are 2026 goals. As VPs, come together and give us the plan of how you're going to get to that goal and how each of your

departments are going to contribute."

So, for me, it's clear, it's revenue, right? But, for my number, it also

right? But, for my number, it also accounts I have to talk to customer success, what their churn looks like.

Okay, if you're going to have X amount of churn, you're predicting this, then I need to bring in X amount of revenue.

And then from there, we not only tell them of what we need or have how we're going to reach that goal, but it's what we need from them as a company or finance team to get to that goal. And so

then it's working with finance on, "Okay, well this was our plan we put together." And then we like to think

together." And then we like to think because I think it's important from each perspective to present like finance presented their plan to me and said, "This is how we thought you'd get to your goal." And then I presented, "Oh,

your goal." And then I presented, "Oh, this is how I plan to get to my goal."

And it helps us show alignment and also understand how each other thinks. I

think finance and sales brains are very different, you know? Very one's very numbers-driven very spreadsheet-focused, very mathematical, where I would say I'm more creative. I'm

more, you know, I'm more leaning into like social things and psychology and things like that, right? So it's it's really, really interesting to see where numbers meet creativity and come

together. Um

together. Um I would say that's our what we did this year worked really well for us and and we came up with a plan and we're executing the plan and it's it's fun to see there's ownership on both sides, right? It's not just finance saying,

right? It's not just finance saying, "Hey sales, here's your number, figure it out." And it's also not sales making

it out." And it's also not sales making excuses, which a lot of sales leaders can do and say, "Oh, the market this, the market that." Or, you know, um it's Q1, it's slow. All these different things. You kind of meet of the minds

things. You kind of meet of the minds and you meet in the middle and come up with a plan together and it puts accountability on both sides.

So that's that's what we did this year.

It was it was a fun exercise and it was it was really good to get into the mindset of each other. I I I just want to add listening to this I I I really feel as a finance person, you know, budgets are traditionally considered to

be a finance activity, but they are not really a finance exercise. I really feel that budget is more of a strategic alignment exercise and if we treat it like that, it becomes really easy and

everybody plays a part to achieve that budget. It also puts more ownership on

budget. It also puts more ownership on someone else besides just the CFO. So

for all the finance leaders listening, not that I'm saying delegate, but you know, it it's it shares the responsibility and it gives more ownership and it's when I'm presenting the vision to my team, I have a stake I

have ownership and I say, "I came up with this idea with my CFO and this is what we believe is the best for the company and this is what I think we should do to get us to our goals and then and then I'm I'm then echoing that

down to my my leadership team underneath me and we're talking about okay, great.

Now let's strategize underneath that and it it creates a good effect. But yeah,

it it takes it completely off of finance and gives them more accountability and ownership.

Can I suggest one thing because one thing that we I really did this year is also to go and present the budget to other functions like R&D, HR, etc. These are some of the functions, you know, in

a lot of companies which have no clue about what the plan is for next year and you know, kind of doing that and bringing them on board to align to one common purpose that we are trying to

achieve let's say for 2026 really help drive the conversation a lot of discussions that we wanted to have later on let's say when it comes to having a new product development or you

know, bringing in more savings given we have pressure on the P&L and things like that makes it really easy when everybody understands the common purpose that we are trying to achieve. If we want to have a new go-to-market strategy, we

will need more people, right? And then

HR should not say that we cannot hire more people because there's a budget constraint.

So, you know, just bringing everybody on board makes a lot of a difference and one thing if I were to suggest for people entering 2027 or planning their budget for 2027 to

bring in other functions which are supposedly their support function, but once you bring them part of the ecosystem, you would see that a lot of things become easier as you as you try

to deliver the year. It also helps just company culture and like relationships of understanding your fellow colleagues like sometimes you may find maybe we have conflicting goals, you know, like

with a especially with a sales team versus like a finance team or sales team versus like a customer success or implementation team. It's you know, it

implementation team. It's you know, it sometimes it's different and if you ever find a goal that could be conflicting or opposing and then all of a sudden now we're working apart, right? Like we're

not working as a company and growing together. So, I think presenting your

together. So, I think presenting your goals, especially on a leadership level, to the other departments and having visibility of, oh, this is why they're selling deals this way or this is why they're not bringing in these types of

deals and this is why they formed the contract this way or whatever it is, it gives more clarity into working for the greater good of the business and if it steps on another department's toes, it gives them it gives them the chance to

raise an objection or that red flag and talk through it and make sure again the goals are working together, not, you know, pulling each other or pulling apart from the departments.

Yeah.

As you guys were talking, Swati, I was thinking about um so, Stephanie, you said we're talking about sales being on the creative side and um sort of the the meeting of the sales

brain and finance brains and I completely agree. Like I I get I think I

completely agree. Like I I get I think I was telling you guys before the show I wear the Aura Ring and if I'm ever on a sales pitch, my stress just goes way up, but I could be in the middle of the

messiest spreadsheet in the world and just I'm in full like meditative mode.

I'm in restorative mode and everything.

So, it's I do think the brains are wired differently and that's why, Swati, when you were on the show and mentioned that you were taking improv classes, [laughter] that I thought that's something I would expect from like the sales side, but it

seems out of character for someone in finance. So, I guess I just hard left

finance. So, I guess I just hard left turn from what we were just talking about, but it just it just came up to me and I I really think that's fascinating.

So, I'm wondering how are the improv classes going and it's I'm it's been a while since you've been on the show. So, if you're still keeping up with that, I'm wondering how is that changed you as a business

partner? So, I just had my first kind of

partner? So, I just had my first kind of showcase last week and it went really well. You know, one of the reasons I got

well. You know, one of the reasons I got into improv was because of its core principle of yes and uh so, instead of shutting an idea completely, you acknowledge it and then

you kind of build on it. So, this has been a really powerful mindset that we need in business partnering as well, right? Um, because I I realized working

right? Um, because I I realized working so many years in finance, we are default to pointing out what's wrong with an idea.

And it creates a natural friction when you kind of shut down an idea. But when

you start the conversation with some sort of curiosity and say yes, and how can we make this work?

Um, the whole dynamic changes. You kind

of feel like you're on the same team.

You're going to the same party. And

I think improv, personally for me, has helped me get more comfortable with uncertainty and thinking on my feet because you don't have a script that you prepare for and go and perform on stage.

And in business also, you're not going to have the perfect information ever, right? There will be decisions that will

right? There will be decisions that will still need to be made. You will still have to do uh, numbers. You'll still have to do

uh, numbers. You'll still have to do your budget. And that's where, of

your budget. And that's where, of course, scenario planning, my favorite thing to do in the world comes in.

But it it enforced something important, right? Analysis alone isn't enough.

right? Analysis alone isn't enough.

Finance professional also needs to be good communicators. If I cannot explain

good communicators. If I cannot explain insights in a way that resonates with the sales team, the numbers are really not going to influence any decision.

Uh, sales team will do whatever they want to do. So, I feel like uh, being in that shoes has kind of helped me look at things in a different perspective. I've just finished the

perspective. I've just finished the great beginner course on improv. And I

obviously I plan to continue to be able to be more and more comfortable in being in this chaos and in being in this yes and situation.

And Stephanie, on the flip side of that, I feel like this yes and is probably, I don't know if it came naturally from naturally to you from the time you were a little kid or anything, but it

certainly it's got to be a a skill that you've learned. And I think about in a

you've learned. And I think about in a non-business partnering relationship, the sales personality, and then sort of the finance perception of sales of oh, they don't even care about margin.

They're going to close the deal at you know, at any cost or whatever just so they can get their deal closed. And then

finance has that reputation for being, you know, the office of no, and they're going to block everything. And I'm

wondering I I feel like you're doing a lot of that same sort of improv work, and you have to adapt your communication style when you're working with finance.

I mean, how does that work, and do you have to meet them halfway, or or when you go into pitch mode when you're talking to finance, how how does that work? Yeah, or yes, and I do meet them

work? Yeah, or yes, and I do meet them halfway, but um you have to meet everyone halfway as a leader in any company, right? You can't

go in with just me, me, me, what I want.

It has to be present the facts. What Why

do we want this? Why am I asking you for this? Why Again, with finance, a lot of

this? Why Again, with finance, a lot of it is what is the risk? Are you willing to take the risk? I always really respect the line of what's their decision versus what's what's mine,

right? Mine is at the end of the day to

right? Mine is at the end of the day to bring as much revenue as possible, but again, to do what's best for the company. But it's and a lot of the time

company. But it's and a lot of the time in most companies, revenue can trump almost any decision cuz again, without revenue, a lot of the rest of the company doesn't exist. But no matter if I know even if I know I'm going to get

my way on something that I know finance may not be comfortable with, I always make sure I give them the respect and the opportunity to make their decision and talk it through with me, and always make sure that I understand why they

chose the decision they did. So, I think yes, of course I meet them halfway. I

think they meet me halfway, too, and reputations like that exist for a reason. In every company, there are

reason. In every company, there are there are people like that. There are

more, you could say, rigid finance personalities and more um bossy, kind of bullish sales personalities that are just kind of, you know, taking, taking, taking where finances sometimes has to,

you know, put their foot down, things like that. So, I think again, from the

like that. So, I think again, from the leadership perspective, the alignment is so important because what's happening at the top is always going to trickle down.

And so meeting each other halfway, being able to have constructive conversations, and really having respect. They're in

their role for a reason. They're the CFO for a reason. I'm the VP of sales for a reason, right? And I think if we both

reason, right? And I think if we both respect each other's role and expertise, then we can come to a decision together.

Yeah, again, when we're talking to finance, it's really presenting risk.

It's It's just like in sales, we call it using like your sales EQ, your emotional intelligence. What is going to speak to

intelligence. What is going to speak to this buyer? So when finance is

this buyer? So when finance is How am I going to present this in a way that they're going to receive it, right?

So what is the risk in this? Why do we want this? What are the numbers? What is

want this? What are the numbers? What is

the margin? All of that. And then

letting them make their decision and respecting their decision. And if I don't If I don't agree with it, pushing back respectfully.

Yeah, I love that.

We're getting to the end of the show here. I do think this has been just a I

here. I do think this has been just a I mean, I feel like we're singing Kumbaya.

We're sitting around the campfire.

Everybody's happy.

Um and I but I I know that there are people out there who are not in this well-run business partnering um situation. So I wonder from both of you,

situation. So I wonder from both of you, and maybe um Swati, what would you say to sales about working with finance? I

think if it's just one piece, I would say bring finance into the conversation early. Sometimes, you know, finance gets

early. Sometimes, you know, finance gets involved once the decisions are made, strategy is defined. And at that stage, our role kind of gets limited to being

reviewing the numbers or challenging assumptions. And

assumptions. And it doesn't help either parties. It

creates a lot of friction. Uh but when finance is involved earlier, we can often help strengthen the idea, right?

Whether it's through pricing, cost structure, scenario planning. And the

best partnerships can only happen and business can grow profitably, mind you, profitably, is when sales and finance are aligned around the same goals and

you know, not just close but building profitable sustainable growth. So, yeah,

when both sides see each other as partners and not gatekeepers, I think that's when I think magic happens and that's what that would be my suggestion

to any sales folk watching this. Great.

And And Stephanie, how about to the finance professionals, which is going to be you've got a big audience here of of the other side of the table? What

what's your piece of advice for them? I

would say take a genuine curiosity in what's going on in your sales team sales processes. So, as you're planning,

processes. So, as you're planning, you're being strategic, you're thinking of goals for the year and how you're going to roll out goals, listen to calls and I would I would actually even put some of this

back onto the sales leadership is send your finance team sales cycles, you know, if most sales teams these days use call reporting systems, we do a lot of call reviews in our company, but send your finance team a call where there was

a ton of friction, but maybe you still won the deal or maybe you lost it. Give

them examples of what hard and true deal cycles look like and I would urge the finance professionals to have an actual interest, right? Know why your team

interest, right? Know why your team isn't bringing in deals, know why they're stalling. It's not not to for

they're stalling. It's not not to for them to give sales feedback, but it's for them to understand the mind of the buyer and again in every product it's different. In my company, my buyer is a

different. In my company, my buyer is a CFO and so it's a lot easier for my CFO to understand some of those things, but in other companies it's See what See what the market is saying.

Listen to it live. Listen to how your team is talking to them and how they're responding and I think when they can actually have visibility into the sales process, they'll understand and they can start suggesting more things to change

in the budget or more things to change in their numbers and improve them by actually knowing what's going on rather than just making assumptions of you know, hey, sell this without you know, including everything else that's going

on in the world or the sales process.

So, I'd say have a genuine curiosity in the sales team and learn more about the process. Yeah, perfect, perfect. Well,

process. Yeah, perfect, perfect. Well,

guys, I really appreciate you both coming on and and and both of you sounding like absolutely brilliant business partners and and sharing your insights with our audience.