Salomon Ligthelm's Super Bowl Commercial

My work is at its best when it's as analog as possible. I haven't shed a tear for anything that AI has created yet. So, I don't know. I mean, move me

yet. So, I don't know. I mean, move me and and and maybe it changes the conversation, but if everything's just going to be cool, I've seen that. I'm

seeing it all the time.

>> Every now and then, I like to check in on director Solomon Lelm. Not only do I super respect how he approaches his craft, I can always count on him to give

me his honest point of view. Some

directors need to consciously destroy their image in order for the story that's underneath to really shine through. Otherwise, the story underneath

through. Otherwise, the story underneath doesn't shine through. The images are doing all the shining.

Today we're breaking down his recent Super Bowl commercial as well as the massive 64page treatment he submitted that won him the job. In the treatment, I really leaned into a very unique point

of view that I wanted to take. You know,

that intro and approach section. I don't

think I've crafted the words more than I have cuz it was one of the closest aspects to my life that I could explore in a commercial. I didn't want to do anything that was part of the American

church industrial complex because that's not what I want to be a part of. If I'm

going to make it, I needed to make it in a way that felt really truthful and honest.

>> Solomon Lelm, welcome to the podcast.

>> Thank you. Thank you for having me, man.

So good to be chatting again.

>> The one who dies with the most toys wins.

50 million Americans can't be wrong because winning is more fun.

>> Your smile is brighter than snow.

>> Look at this amazing demonstration.

>> I want to feel more beautiful >> in a search that has continued for centuries and its promise of more and more >> overseas. Don't lie.

>> overseas. Don't lie.

>> I'll be the top of the town.

>> You've got to learn to get more pleasure out of this. You'll get more more pleasure out of this. Here come more daredevil drivers full of fantastic pricks. This just in. You don't want to

pricks. This just in. You don't want to be less. A series on the changing

be less. A series on the changing American market. Come consumer.

American market. Come consumer.

>> You've got to learn to get more pleasure out of this. If you'll get more more more pleasure out of this.

>> Well, Solomon, if there's anyone that I trust to get introspective and philosophical with, it's you. Um,

>> I don't know. I don't know if that's a good thing or not because sometimes I I'm like, "Oh gosh, I wish I could just lighten up." But uh I I I lighten up

lighten up." But uh I I I lighten up when I'm on holiday, but that's about it.

>> No, no. I I think I think it's a good thing. I I think uh I think it's an

thing. I I think uh I think it's an incredible thing, you know, but I want to take a moment and just zoom in on this really thoughtful campaign you worked on for He Gets Us. Um as the

director, give me a synopsis. I mean,

what is this?

>> What is it? Honestly, I think I mean that's probably the question a lot of people ask and they've asked it, you know, the first time this campaign

launched 4 years ago. I think people were like, "Oh, what is this about?"

Because when these spots come on, uh particularly at the Super Bowl, there's sort of no obvious cell um in the images

or in the messaging. So it's only sort of at the end of the um of the films, each one of these films over the last four years that you sort of understand

what it's about. Um I think initially uh when I was approached for this campaign, I I wasn't honestly I wasn't sure how whether I want to engage. Um I come from

I think we spoke about this. I come from a uh from a religious spiritual background but I but I always want the

work to sort of uh the work that I do the work that I do I wanted to transcend

pure religion um because I think religion has so many connotations um and baggage to it. Um but then my EP at

Pretty Bird, she was like, "You know what? I think you should look at this. I

what? I think you should look at this. I

think you should look at this campaign.

Uh she got the boards in and she was like, I think you'll resonate with what it's trying to communicate. It was very sort of humanist the the the intention

and the deck that I got. And she was like, I think you can bring a lot of yourself to this. At the time, there were four different spots uh part of this campaign. More, which is this one

this campaign. More, which is this one uh that we're currently looking at. Be

is another one. Lo um do was another one. and don't was uh so those four

one. and don't was uh so those four films and then this additional film got added in called load of questions um and I did look at the campaign and I

thought yeah you know what this is this is something that I resonate with a lot because it was transcending

um in my view sort of the American church industrial complex that's sort of how I called it in the treatment and I didn't want to do anything that was part

of the American church industrial complex because that often um there is so much baggage. There is so much nationalism baggage with that that

I'm like I'm that's not what I want to be a part of. I do want to be a part of the message that was spoken 2,000 years ago by someone who changed the world. I

really believe in that. Um, but if it was going to be anything dogmatic, I I don't want to have anything to do with it. So, in the treatment, I really

it. So, in the treatment, I really leaned into a very unique point of view that I wanted to take, which is um I

want to sort of look at culture at large. Um, and and

large. Um, and and what I liked about this particular campaign, it wasn't political. Like I

think on both sides of the political aisle you can go like let's look at more for instance you can go yeah man like I I just some somebody sent me some

comments from New York Times cuz this got got posted on the New York Times as one of their uh successful campaigns I guess of of of the year and like reading

the comments of atheists or skeptics going you know what I don't I don't really believe in Christianity or religion or anything in particular, but

actually I do believe that we have fallen into the trap of excess and I sort of applaud anyone who's going to take that on and critique that. Um, so

the message felt universal in that way.

Um, and so there was sort of an entryway that I was like, you know what, I I think that it will resonate with people even if they're skeptics or they're not believers. and and and hopefully that's

believers. and and and hopefully that's sort of the the the the door opening for people to go, you know what, let let me look in into my life and and look at

where things have just sort of like uh I've been on autopilot and just buying and buying and partaking and maybe maybe there is something deeper calling me,

you know, and I that's sort of what I got really interested in and I thought maybe I could lend my voice to this.

This piece for sure has been seen by millions of people and everyone has thoughts and it's created some really good discourse. But I think, you know,

good discourse. But I think, you know, one of the biggest reasons that it's been seen so much is because it aired during the Super Bowl. I mean, Solomon, you've directed big commercials before.

Um, in this case, there's no larger stage in advertising. From a visibility standpoint, this is the ceiling. Um, did

you know while you were making it that this piece was going to be aired in this way and did that impact how you approached it?

>> Uh, it's it's a yes and a no. Um, so

there were two films that were being considered for the Super Bowl placement.

One was more and the other one was load of questions. So those two films, Load

of questions. So those two films, Load of Questions, um, is it's not part of this deck. it became sort of an addendum

this deck. it became sort of an addendum deck because they sort of brought it us brought it to us last minute and go hey can you also pitch on this this is another film that we're considering for

the Super Bowl. So it was then sort of in editorial where finally the decision was going to be made to which film uh

which film sort of wins out in terms of that placement spot for uh for the Super Bowl. and um load of questions like I

Bowl. and um load of questions like I think is a beautiful film and it it asks very honest uh sort of innocent questions in the beginning through the

through the through the eyes of a baby or through the eyes of a child. The

whole film is sort of asked these questions are asked through the eyes of a child and they they're very innocent naive questions in the beginning and then they sort of stack and become a little bit more existential bordering on

spiritual questions by the end. Um, but

as we were sort of looking at more and loaded questions, it actually felt like more um had its pulse on where culture was at a little bit more. And I'm

excited about that because I think if you look at some of the previous campaigns that he gets us have done, um they've been a little bit more like

emotional and um uh maybe a bit more classic in their approach, but more felt a little bit more modern um in a way.

And it was you're sort of like using the language of culture to subvert it and to critique it. Um, and again, didn't fully

critique it. Um, and again, didn't fully know. I mean, the hope was that one of

know. I mean, the hope was that one of these films, particularly in in my case, I was hoping that more actually would go to the Super Bowl and then Yeah. And and

then finally, it won out.

>> Let's get into the technicals a little bit. I mean,

bit. I mean, your approach to shooting this, I mean, because you had, God, four, four pieces, different pieces of content, um,

deliverables in the same shoot, correct?

Is that how you guys did it?

>> Five. Five.

>> Five. Yeah. So,

>> what was that like? What did it take?

How many days did you shoot? What was

the crew like? Where did you shoot? Give

me some Give me some context. Yeah, it

was uh we shot for seven official days and then we added two smaller days uh onto it just so that we had so much to

shoot. Like there was again five five

shoot. Like there was again five five spots and and they weren't five sort of like single take or simple setup shots like if you look at more like it's it's excessive. There are so many scenes. is

excessive. There are so many scenes. is

there are so and almost every spot say for one um is large and sprawling in terms of just how many people we're capturing. I think we had like

capturing. I think we had like 140 uh main talent uh and then 300 extras I think. So it was it was a big

shoot. Um and so on paper we had seven

shoot. Um and so on paper we had seven days but in actual fact we had nine. We

had two down days. We had five days shooting two down days and then another two days. and we just I decided to go

two days. and we just I decided to go take a small crew to the desert on our two down days and just go shoot some additional desert stuff. And so that's what you can see in that like frame

right there. Um we shot in LA. It was

right there. Um we shot in LA. It was

really important for for this film to feel like it's a a US uh feeling film. I mean certainly more universal than necessarily just US but I

think capitalism uh can probably have its and consumerism probably has its sort of like greatest

um target in the US. Um so we shot in LA and part of shooting in LA is also we just we very much realized that the industry has sort of been suffering and

we wanted to get people to work. Um, and

uh, yeah, chose LA because great locations, but also crew that I trust and uh, can I can get a lot out of the locations um, because it's all so

compressed and close together and we needed a great variety of locations in a short traveling distance. Yeah, we just had the best crew. Um we shot with LOL

Cwley um who is amazing amazing painter um with light incredible collaborator um and we shot on for Perth

um Kodak >> market come consumer >> you've got to learn to get more pleasure out of this you'll get more more more pleasure out of this

>> the job was so sprawling that there were like particularly in war and in load questions that we had to sort of plug holes like more was actually written actually more and loaded questions was

written with a lot of stock footage in mind. um because because we wanted to

mind. um because because we wanted to create the sense that this is sort of a a a re a reality a perennial reality

sort of all the world uh across and so initially we I did an initial cut and I had two days to put a a sort of a

director a cut together but there was literally no time uh before uh agency and client had to see it or agency had

to see it and then Um, there was so many sort of uh p so much time spent trying to get this edit into a shape that felt really

interesting. And um eventually I think

interesting. And um eventually I think it was the day before we had to present the client and the agency had sort of like uh gone in a direction and then I had sort of kept in a different

direction cuz we weren't in the same city uh when we were cutting.

And I found the key, which is these uh these audio clips from 1950s um infomercials and commercials. And I

wanted the imagery to stay really modern. Um but I wanted the problem to

modern. Um but I wanted the problem to feel perennial. And so these older audio

feel perennial. And so these older audio clips mixed with images that felt really modern was like a really nice combination to make to make the film

feel quite modern uh and contemporary um but still make it feel like the problem uh of excess and consumerism is you know

decades, centuries, millennia old.

>> Um and so that was sort of the key.

>> Yeah. I mean, a lot of the sound bites you're using, that's kind of where the all this was born. And it wasn't the intention. I think when I wrote the

intention. I think when I wrote the treatment, I was like, um, I we initially had Britney's gimme gimme more track that was going to be the track on

top of it and it was going to tell a lot of the storytelling. And uh, like then the reality of like, oh, are we going to get that song? Um, started to set in.

And then I just started thinking trying to think about it in a different way.

How can we still sort of communicate the idea um but do it in a different way?

And then finding these audio clips was that really was like that was the lynch pin. Um that that gave us um a fresh way

pin. Um that that gave us um a fresh way into it.

>> I mean I feel like filmmakers scoff at the idea of using stock or someone else's work in theirs. You know what's your stance here? You know I think there's a natural and appropriate use of it sometimes. Personally, this is to me

it sometimes. Personally, this is to me an example of that. But where do you stand on that idea?

>> Yeah. I don't know why people scoff at it. I I love it, honestly. Like I I I

it. I I love it, honestly. Like I I I mean, I love shooting as much as I can that's uh within sort of my control to create a a a reality, especially if it's

something that feels really tailored and that feels really bespoke. Um like the B film, like that's there's no stock in

that. that is completely um completely

that. that is completely um completely all shot by us. Um but for more like they were just stuff that I wouldn't

have access to shoot you know with the limited amount of days that we had. Um

uh and the the the complexity of some of these bigger scenes that we have that we just wouldn't have wouldn't had time

for. Um, I needed to rely on on on stock

for. Um, I needed to rely on on on stock to do it. And I I honestly I use it all the time. Like I did it in Riad season.

the time. Like I did it in Riad season.

Um, I did it in my film Beyond the Endless Light. Uh, I use it I use stock

Endless Light. Uh, I use it I use stock footage fairly often. A lot of times I also use stock footage like you can see there. Like we knew that stock footage

there. Like we knew that stock footage was going to play a part of it because there was some of the older stock, some of the stuff that feels like it's from

the 50s and 60s. uh like this stuff that was 100% going to be stock and you would know that it was stock.

>> Dude, you're not going to go shoot this on your shoot when when you when you only have so much time and resources for your primary scenes. You know, there's no it's so totally unfeasible for you to

go shoot stuff like this.

>> Yeah, exactly. And so that's been like, well, that stuff exists on on on Getty or I think some of that stuff we got from Stalker or they provided it and

some of the stuff was from Film Supply.

Um, and I mean I love honestly I love particularly I love stock for cosmos and

textures and the stuff that's maybe not like a I want to say narrative specific um it's not a character or or um

storytelling between two people. It's

texture to build the world, to build um to three-dimensionalize the space, the location a little bit more. Um, but I have absolutely no problem against stock

footage. I think they can be very, very

footage. I think they can be very, very powerful assets. I mean, so many films,

powerful assets. I mean, so many films, so many films I've used them 100%. I

feel the same way. I mean, I'm a believer in film supply. I've got a lot of my own footage up there. And you're

right, like a lot of the stuff that sells are the more textural, the in between elements, the things that people just don't have the time and resources to go out and shoot every little element.

>> Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. No, exactly. And I've

done it I've done it honestly since the since the start of my career. Um I've

used I remember some of the earliest stuff I cut with pre-linger uh pre-linger archives which is sort of like a royalty-free uh archive site. It's like Library of

Congress is like where you can find still images that are sort of in the public domain um that are like very old and I've utilized that so many times.

And then I did a I did a video maybe 12 13 years ago um uh called um I've been on this mountaintop a Martin Lu like

that basically used the Martin Luther King clip and all that stock footage that I used was basically super low res stock footage from um from the

pre-linger archives. Um I've gotten

pre-linger archives. Um I've gotten stuff from like NASA's Cassini missions uh for multiple uh videos of mine. So, I

I love it. I honestly love the right stock.

>> Yeah, it has to be it has to be the right thing for sure. We touched on it, but I want to dig into the treatment a little bit. Um because this thing is a

little bit. Um because this thing is a beefer. I mean, I know you guys were

beefer. I mean, I know you guys were concepting more than one piece here, but we're talking about 64 highly designed, beautiful um images. Talk to me about

your process here in in in writing this one. I mean, you had a team of people

one. I mean, you had a team of people helping you with this thing, right?

>> We Yeah. I mean, we we always I think music videos is usually the one space where I'm doing everything from beginning to end or short short films uh

or narrative films. Um commercials.

Yeah. You often working with a treatment writer that's helping you out and a um a visual research. Always visual research.

visual research. Always visual research.

Uh, this one I This one is actually one that I because it was so personal, I said to the guy that I usually work with, Joshua Sullivan, "Hey, dude, let

me just take a stab at all of this. Uh,

just let me just write it out because there's so much in here that is so it's so unique to my point of view that

I'm not expecting someone else to sort of carry for me. Um I I need to attack it. Uh I sort of need to give the first

it. Uh I sort of need to give the first run through that's just raw me and then it can be polished. But I also spent I mean then with Joshua we spent a lot of

time polishing uh polishing it together.

But uh like all the you know that intro and approach section just like how the films what they mean to me and then how to

approach them. I think I don't think

approach them. I think I don't think I've crafted uh the words more than I have in this uh than I had with this

with this film cuz it cuz it was very personal. Um like it's like one of the

personal. Um like it's like one of the closest aspects to my life that I could explore in a commercial. So, it it meant a lot to me that it felt true to

if I'm going to make it, I needed to make it in a way that felt really truthful and honest. And honestly, dude, the biggest thing that I felt

I just I felt so I I was maybe also the most anxious with this job cuz I so badly did not want to betray

the the heart behind it. not not just with the films themselves, but also with like how the set was being run because I

was so aware that we had limited time.

We're going to see so many people um that I just didn't want the set needed to feel sacred in a way. People's time

needed to feel sacred. People's

being needed to feel sacred. And if we were just churning and people felt like they were dispensable, then it sort of like runs against everything that this

thing is trying to communicate. So

>> yeah. How did How did you do that? Give

me an example of how you protected that on set.

>> Well, one of the things that um that I did, which I don't typically do, is on the first day, usually there's like a safety meeting before you start

shooting. Um, and the safety meeting is

shooting. Um, and the safety meeting is led by the first AD and and he sort of just talks to everyone about the run of the day and how things were going to run.

>> And I just I asked Jesse, Jesse Fleece, who was the first AD, I said, "Look, I don't usually ask this, but do you mind if I just say like a couple of words?"

And I sort of just set up the idea that we're going to be moving fast and that um invariably there's going to be a lot

of uh stress on the set, but I just said knowing that I'm going to have to be responsible myself and that's always the hardest thing when you're asking something of other people like

>> you know that you're going to lose all that trust if you break it yourself. Um,

so, >> so it's a it's a it's a highwire act of just the ask was I know we're going to have to run around and everyone's going to be stressed

because we're moving so fast, but I just ask that everyone treats each other with grace. um uh in spite of all the stress

grace. um uh in spite of all the stress that invariably happens when a set is this big and there's so many people involved just that's the ask if if everyone can just treat each other with

grace because I mean yeah it would just break me if someone left the set and going ah that sucked you know >> that was not a great experience >> I mean dude did I know what this yeah I

think we all know what that set is like uh I don't think I've ever walked off a set but I've certainly wanted to and as a director you never want your set to be that set. And uh

that set. And uh >> I think it was cool just getting ahead of it, knowing what the energy was going to be. And then fostering that energy of

to be. And then fostering that energy of of safety, I think is so important. So

important.

>> Yeah. And the thing is that actually has to be that has to be for every set. That

has to be for every set. You like I I I I would Yeah. I would hate if someone feels that that way on a on on a set that I'm leading. You know what I mean?

It did. It would It would break me.

>> Yeah.

>> Yeah.

>> Speaking of breaking, in our past episode, you said that you're not afraid to break the frame. You're not afraid to make a game time decision and say, "Hey, look, this is what we planned, but this is what we're going to do." What's an

example of that on this shoot?

>> 50 million Americans can't be wrong because winning is more fun.

>> Your smile is brighter than snow.

>> Look at this amazing demonstration.

>> I want to feel more beautiful >> in a search that has continued. Well, I

can tell you this much. There is so much that's on the cutting room floor um that didn't make it. Um because you think like we had, you know, we had this big

scene at a carnival that we sort of built out for a load of questions and it just didn't make it. I mean, the the um

the shoot with a girl in front of the mirror that was going to be basically one girl um doing multiple wardrobe changes and it's it was going to be a

flutter cut uh between all there's sort of a reference for it in the treatment somewhere that was like ah that was sort of the idea and then we walked into this location and there were just mirrors

everywhere and we're like oh how about if we sort of just change the idea and it's a bunch of girls in front of mirrors and they're sort of all taking selfies of themselves and I was like

that was just the better idea like you did it there was sort of scale to it the the location was cool so I I want to say it almost happened for everything like I

think if you look at the story boards and you look at what we did especially for more you wouldn't recognize the film because the film the film was really

discovered in the edit like once we find the once we found those um those old 1950s clips. I think this is one of the

1950s clips. I think this is one of the only scenes that I I can literally walk you through this thing and go, "Oh, that was in the storyboard. That wasn't. That

wasn't. That wasn't. That wasn't. That

wasn't. That wasn't. That wasn't. That

was in the storyboard. That wasn't. That

wasn't. That wasn't. That wasn't. That

wasn't. That wasn't." You know? So,

yeah. Yeah. I mean, um, that's always the interesting thing, man, is like I know when I'm working on a project that I'm shooting something and I'm something is in the back of my head telling me

that, you know, this may be used in in so many different ways. Ways I didn't intend, ways that I don't know about yet. Um, you know, and sometimes that's

yet. Um, you know, and sometimes that's just the nature of the shoot. Was that

just the nature of this shoot?

>> It was. I mean, I think I got You get nervous. you get nervous leading up to a shoot because one of the things that was communicated

to me by the agency was we want each one of the four films to feel really distinct. And when you're sort of like

distinct. And when you're sort of like walking onto seven days or like nine days of shooting and you're shooting this scene for more and you're shooting that scene for be and you're shooting that scene for do and you're shooting

that scene for don't and you're shooting that scene for load of questions like like like this like crazy. Um, you're

not shooting everything for more at the same time and then going to be like we're in this location jumping around.

>> How do how do you have your head around that?

>> Well, I came up with a rule. I came up with a couple of rules basically and if you look at the films like um more was

going to be frantic energy um shot at 24 frames per second. Maybe a couple of uh images were going to be at uh like high speed. um do was basically going to be

speed. um do was basically going to be we start everything in normal speed basically locked off cameras or dolly dolly moves and then doing three frames per second and six frames per second

versions of it because it sort of needed to feel like Kona Scotty or like Samsara and and it's about people being busy and

being in the rat race. Um more was about excess. So it was so much of so much of

excess. So it was so much of so much of it was about what was happening in the frame shot at real speed or 24 frames per second. Um and then B was highly

per second. Um and then B was highly stylized really really controlled like one to two frames per setup and it was

about people being in finding themselves in societal expectations that's really crushing for them. Rolling

>> and set >> and action >> camera light.

And we were going to do a moving light gag that as we come from a wide shot, uh, this light gag will come on, the the environment light would fade down and

light would come on on their faces and you would sort of see them isolated uh feeling the pressure uh of of of them

not stacking up to society's expectations. Um, and then you'd come

expectations. Um, and then you'd come into a close-up to see the the person's face as they're sort of like dealing with that societal pressure. So, we had

all these rule sets and then loaded questions was going to be almost more like a Terrence Malik very ethereal uh piece where it was a lot about um

reflections and refractions and visceral um uh animal touches. um you know the next scene for instance of this is of a dog that's dying and and you're

exploring these existential questions.

So the the rules of how we were going to shoot each one of these films were very distinct and that helped me to sort of like jump from okay we're shooting 2 hours this scene these are the rules

we're shooting 2 hours now the next scene these are the rules and that's how we >> so you had to be prepared technically with crew and gear in order to shoot

>> any one of those scenes at any given time back to back.

>> Yeah, pretty much. And I think the ones that we had to be the most prepped on was for B just because of this lighting change. Um that was sort of the biggest

change. Um that was sort of the biggest one that we had to get right. And

sometimes I sometimes you also have to remind everyone like hey which which scene are we on again? Is it B or more? It's B. Oh let's

again? Is it B or more? It's B. Oh let's

get the light in. You know let's let's set it up right. So yeah it was a it was a process.

>> I want to bounce back to the treatment for a second. I mean, when you're writing your pitch, forming an idea, you know, how often does it hit you all at once? Like the general vision for I

once? Like the general vision for I think I know what this could be, or does it sometimes not come until the end or at all?

Um, I don't think it often, well, let me put it this way. This was a hard project because it couldn't all come at once because there were four different

problems, four different films. Essentially, it became five that needed to be solved. And so, I had to think about each one of them individually. And

so, but let's treat each one of those films as a treatment unto themselves. I

think often often times you're looking for the point of difference between what they gave you and then what you add on.

And it's not just difference, it's like elevation, too. Like what what truly is

elevation, too. Like what what truly is the thing that you're adding to it that they go, "Oh, that was not what we had in there, and you've you've you've

elevated it." Um, and always that's

elevated it." Um, and always that's that's always what I'm searching for.

I'm not looking to I'm not spending a lot of time thinking about what scenes I could change for them. Like, that's not what I spend a

them. Like, that's not what I spend a lot of time on because that's not really important. Um, what's really important

important. Um, what's really important is the conceptual framework, the story, like what are you fundamentally tweaking changing adding reframing

for them. And that should be able to be

for them. And that should be able to be said in a sentence. I think you want to say that in a sentence so that when they go to their client, they're not confused by the whole script and the scene that

you changed and then they're talking then they, you know, they're expected to go, "Oh, remember that scene with the car where this was doing this? Now he's

doing that." No, you're gonna walk them into corners and they're not going to be able to speak clearly on your behalf because there's always an agency trying to sell this idea to a client. So, my

approach in my approach section, I spend the most time on that. And I go one to two to three things that they can sort of go, Solomon's going to do this and

this and this. Um, and I spend a lot of time on trying to find that unique hook and the unique angle. Sometimes it

doesn't come and then you're like, "Ah man, I feel a little naked putting this in." But that's that's that's

in." But that's that's that's creativity. You can't It's not a slot

creativity. You can't It's not a slot machine where you win every time. Um,

you try your best.

>> But yeah, it's a pretty important section. The hey, this is who I am and

section. The hey, this is who I am and this is what I think about the project.

Because I assume the powers of be whoever's looking at it is expecting that when they open up a treatment. I'm

sure they're like, "Okay, this is coming from a very passionate person who wants to, you know, put themselves into it."

And I think your like your idea of of very clearly stating what that is up front, I think is really smart.

>> And I think it's two things. It's like

point of view. So, who are you and how are you connected to the work? And then

maybe three things point of view, the specific insight and then the clarity of that insight because the insight may be there but it's getting lost by by by raising too many other things to

importance. And so it's like you want to

importance. And so it's like you want to go this is who I am. This is how I'm connected to the work. This is the thing that I'm doing with the work and here it is very clearly one line. You can take

it to your client and sell that as my thing. Um I used to just write in the

thing. Um I used to just write in the beginning and I'm like why why am I losing? I thought the script I made the

losing? I thought the script I made the script so much better but it got lost in the script. They needed to understand it

the script. They needed to understand it somewhere in the approach uh very clearly under a heading. Um this is what he's offering and this is how he's connected to it and here it is very clearly.

>> Um >> yeah especially when your treatment is 64 pages long I imagine it's easy to get lost.

>> Exactly. Exactly. You just want that to be you want that to be clear. So, this

one was this one was more tricky. I knew

that maybe the biggest the biggest thing that's going to help me with this one is sort of my personal point of view and then I'm going to have to write the approach for four different films. So, I have to treat all of them very

differently because they're not the same. But the through line through which

same. But the through line through which all those films are going to be funneled is something very personal to me. Um

because I s and maybe there's a lot of people that sit in this space but particularly for what this is trying to communicate

um I I maybe sit in quite a unique place where I feel like I understand the critique of culture

h but I also understand the critique of religion and the American church industrial complex in America. there's

there's a there's a there's a very strong tension there and this campaign wasn't saying that like the American church industrial complex is amazing and >> like I had to really acknowledge in my

treatment like if we're going to sell that um that's not what I'm interested in really uh because I think there's the American industrial church complex falls

into consumerism as well. It's equally

as guilty. Um, so I'm not going to do anything that's going to try and sugarcoat that. You know what I mean?

sugarcoat that. You know what I mean?

Even in my own personal work, there's a film that I'm working on called Iconoclast. Um, that's really that

Iconoclast. Um, that's really that wrestle. Um, and I didn't think I would

wrestle. Um, and I didn't think I would ever get the opportunity to sort of and maybe I maybe I haven't yet. Um maybe

it's really you can only do it in personal personal work where you can wrestle really with those two sides of like wanting to uh wanting to be something in the world

and you're driven the Marty Supreme dream of dreaming big but also wrestling with like what happens when that dream doesn't succeed and you've sold everything in order to make that dream a

reality. Um like uh I I love being in

reality. Um like uh I I love being in that tension um and exploring ideas that exist in that tension.

>> Yeah, absolutely.

So, you just turned 40. I know enough about you to know that you're not one to live your life passively or without aim.

You're a man of intention, Solomon.

>> Uh how has turning 40 ft to you?

>> Uh sore on the body, I won't lie.

Um, you know, maybe the mind gets sharper, becomes more resilient. Um, uh,

you you you hopefully grow with with, uh, with with wisdom and don't lose your childlike wonder. Um, but the body

childlike wonder. Um, but the body definitely uh the body definitely takes a hit. Um, so, but I'm grateful. I I'm

a hit. Um, so, but I'm grateful. I I'm

I'm very grateful uh that I'm in general good health. Um, but there's definitely

good health. Um, but there's definitely a I definitely feel a sharper focus and I think everyone in my family would say, uh, just slow down, Solomon. You're 40.

That's okay. Like, cuz I'm like, "Oh, okay. Now, I want to just make the film.

okay. Now, I want to just make the film.

I don't want to do any commercials right now. I don't want to do any music

now. I don't want to do any music videos. I just want to make the movie."

videos. I just want to make the movie."

But I've also tried to make the films. And I think sometimes a posture of surrender is something that I'm man

continually learning. uh learning to

continually learning. uh learning to become comfortable with like the world out there says I'm gonna say it again. The world out there says like

it again. The world out there says like you got to Marty supreme everything but actually it's not always possible.

Sometimes you have to surrender because there are things so out of your control.

Um and that's a hard lesson to learn.

>> 100%. I mean I just turned 34 and I already feel like the time the the clock is just racing. It's racing, dude. And

I'm having to >> tr it's so hard for me to just be present right now if I'm honest with you. Um just because I feel like things

you. Um just because I feel like things are things are moving fast faster than they ever have.

>> Um so but I think it's it's really good to find time to >> I mean meditation whatever it is for you to kind of be present and to to not need to accomplish everything you want to

accomplish in order to be happy.

>> I mean we're we're getting deep here but yeah.

>> No that's it. I mean that's that's that's that's the idea of some of these films, you know, like just be just just be content. It's it's

hard to say, but actually the action of switching off and turning things away like that uh restraint is uh that's such

an important action. Um we all know it.

I mean I it's actually hard to talk about because we're so guilty all the time but >> Yeah. Yeah. Um, back to the film

>> Yeah. Yeah. Um, back to the film industry, what do you think is overrated right now in this in the film industry particular?

If I look at if I look at all the stuff that's like getting hyped up on Instagram and and those places, it's

really heavy cutting, fast moving contrast, super high contrast, a lot of black and white and then color and um

and it's cool and a lot of that stuff is like edging also on like AI AI doing a lot of that as well. Um,

but I haven't been moved yet by it.

Like, I've seen cool stuff, but I haven't been moved. I haven't I haven't shed a tear for anything that AI has created yet. So, I don't know. I mean,

created yet. So, I don't know. I mean,

move me. And and and maybe it changes the conversation, but if you're not going to move me, if everything's just going to be cool, um, I've seen that. I'

I'm seeing it all the time. I want to be moved. I I watched Hamnit and I was

moved. I I watched Hamnit and I was destroyed. And you don't make that with

destroyed. And you don't make that with AI. You don't make Hammet with AI. So

AI. You don't make Hammet with AI. So

>> yeah, cool imagery. I mean, you and I are in the business of of creating, fostering elevating understanding breaking apart cool imagery, you know, and I think uh maybe it's just cuz I'm

me in my position, but I you get fatigued with it. And it's not just because you see the same thing over and over. It's just because uh you see a a

over. It's just because uh you see a a blip, a spark, a very quick moment of something looks really cool and then it's gone. and I have I have zero time

it's gone. and I have I have zero time to understand or to live into what I'm what is trying to be conveyed, >> you know.

>> Um and maybe maybe we're just talking about the commercial world here now, but uh I'm with you. Fatigue is setting in and I think it will set in as um our

access to unbelievable imagery becomes more and more attainable.

>> Yeah, it necessitates point of view, right? like it necessitates people to

right? like it necessitates people to tell a story, to tap into something. I

actually really like when imagery isn't perfect. Like I really do love when

perfect. Like I really do love when lighting isn't perfect um and but the story is transcending

um is transcending those imperfections and and and often times I actually think some directors need to consciously destroy their image in order for the

story that's underneath to really shine through. Otherwise the story underneath

through. Otherwise the story underneath doesn't shine through. The images are doing all the shining. Um, and so yeah, like Derek Se France, I think

legitimately breaks his frames, makes them ugly. Not ugly, like they're

them ugly. Not ugly, like they're beautiful. They're like close-ups and

beautiful. They're like close-ups and it's human faces, but they're not they're not these like paint beautiful paintings. They're humanist. Um, and I I

paintings. They're humanist. Um, and I I honestly I I love that. I love Seion France. Like I love his commitment to

France. Like I love his commitment to raw authentic humanity, like anti- AI.

I mean, I'm not anti- AI. I I feel like I am.

And but I'm also in this space. It's

this it's this carnal spiritual wrestling that we're all uh fighting the whole time. Um, but I know

my my work my work is at its best when it's as analog as possible. Um, but I'm

not immune to the the quick fix of of of AI for for a writing idea or I wish I was. Um,

was. Um, >> yeah. Yeah. I it's a great tool in

>> yeah. Yeah. I it's a great tool in certain ways, but when it comes to generating images, Yeah. I think I think uh it's not necessarily the thing that's

going to stand the test of time. Um

that's my opinion. This might be the same question, >> but what what's underrated in the film industry?

>> What is underrated?

>> You know what you're asking?

You're asking me, so my point of view is going to be unique, right? So I can't answer that objectively. Um, but I I

wonder if films like uh Stalker or Andre Rublev like Tarovsky's films will ever be made again

and will connect in the way that they have. I don't know I don't know how well

have. I don't know I don't know how well they connected at the time in which they were made but they I mean they move me so deeply. I just

watched Andre Rublev which is a very sort of inaccessible film I'll admit but because because there's no it's not titilating

um it's not uh it's not it doesn't create a high but it's a film that washes over you. It's the same thing with Stalker. It's to some extent the

with Stalker. It's to some extent the same thing with uh 2001. It's the same thing with the Decalog films. Like I believe that good films I can watch many times. great

films I can watch once and then they they they they have an aftertaste. They

have a long after taste. They stay with you. They embed themselves in you.

you. They embed themselves in you.

You're mulling them over over and over and over again. And they're often very spiritual films. Um and I wonder if the

appetite for making those films or will return. I think Khloe Xiao's film Hamnet

return. I think Khloe Xiao's film Hamnet touches on that. Um it was an amazing film. Sound of Metal

film. Sound of Metal had me in that same space again. And

that's those are the films I want to make. You know, I

make. You know, I >> totally and and here's the thing, like I don't those films will never go anywhere. We will always have those

anywhere. We will always have those films. I just wonder if they will become more and more niche. Like sit down with a niece or or nephew, right, who's had

their head on the phone 24/7 since the day they were born and then expect them to get anything out of that. That's

tough. So

>> you're right.

>> Here's here's my take is and it's it's it's maybe a bad take, but real real the real will never be mainstream

again.

It'll be niche.

>> What do you mean?

>> Okay. So So

you know how we consume fast food? Like

fast food it's so easy for us to consume. Most people don't go out to

consume. Most people don't go out to enjoy a Michelin star restaurant meal.

They don't have the means. They don't

have the time. They don't have the capacity. And so what do we all mostly

capacity. And so what do we all mostly settle for? We settle for fast food.

settle for? We settle for fast food.

It's quick. It's easy. It's not good for us. But that's that's just the way it

us. But that's that's just the way it is. If you look at film, if you look at

is. If you look at film, if you look at analog, if you look at cassettes, all these things that are like beautiful, they move us. there there's something

you know analog there they are analog but I think AI will become fast food and

real will become the niche craft so I that's it's made it's a very cynical take >> no d I that's how I feel honestly

>> that's how I feel yeah the real will never be mainstream again sadly >> well thanks so much dude >> pleasure brother hope that was helpful

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