Sam Altman | This Past Weekend w/ Theo Von #599

Today's guest is uh well, dude's a

straightup tech lord, let's be honest.

He's uh he's one of the leaders, the

world leaders in the development of AI.

Um he started Open AI, which is known

for uh having chat GPT.

Uh we had a fascinating chat about the

pros and cons, um the fears and hopes,

everything I could learn about uh about

artificial intelligence and where we're

headed. TBD baby. Today's guest is Mr.

Sam Alman and I'm very thankful for his

time

[Music]

>> and I will find a song. I will sing it.

[Applause]

>> You know, we had a residential architect

do this office. We wanted it to feel

like someone's like really comfortable

like country house or something like

that.

>> Yeah. Not like the big corporate like

sci-fi castle.

>> Yeah, that's what I was I was like a

little bit like, oh, is it going to be,

you know, will there be a drawer bridge?

Will we be uploaded into a suite? Like

what will happen to us? You

>> don't want that. We going for like

residential.

>> Yeah. I was like, how do we even get

through the firewall? How many like hit

points will we need to get through? You

know, it got very Dungeons and Dragons

uh in some of my like um imagination

sometimes.

>> Yeah, we want people to feel like super

comfortable and tried to get pretty far

in that direction.

>> It feels like it. and your staff's very

sweet, nice people. Um, you have Thanks

for hanging out, man.

>> Absolutely. Thanks for appreciate it.

Uh, yeah, I haven't seen you since I

fell out of my chair.

>> Fell out of a chair at the inauguration.

>> That was really like quite a way to meet

you.

>> Yeah, I felt so embarrassed. And you

were one of the faces that I looked up

and saw and I was like, "God." And that

was my first moment like, "AI build us a

better chair to be honest with you."

>> You and you did nothing, right? You were

just sitting there and it just

collapsed. Nothing.

>> I remember that.

>> And it was just so embarrassing. I was

like, "Oh, of all people me and here I

am in this place." And uh

>> I think it was perfect because

everybody's got to have some sto when

people are like, "Oh, was the

inauguration?" Like, everybody's got to

have some story to tell.

>> Yeah.

>> And that was an incredible story for us

all to tell.

>> That's a good point. I do remember

looking at people for help, though. And

oddly, your eyes I I was like, "Oh my

god, he could help." You did look like a

beacon of help in the distance.

>> I tried to help.

>> Um

>> You have a baby. You have a new Yeah.

>> child. It is.

There have been like a lot of

experiences in life where everyone tells

you something's going to be great and

then it's like, okay, the people are

right, the consensus is right, it's like

even better than I thought it was going

to be. But this has been the strongest

example of that ever.

>> Like I knew it was going to be great and

it's like way way better. It's

impossible to describe. There's nothing

I can say that's not like very cliche

>> and it's totally amazing.

>> What is like one of your And it's a you

have a young boy. Yeah. And what's

something like that you think is like

neat or like what's one thing that kind

of like is bringing you joy with it?

>> Watching

the speed with which he like learns new

things or gains new capabilities. Yeah.

Is just unbelievable. It's like every

day it's like oh man

>> he just couldn't do that before and now

he's like grabbing stuff and passing it

between his hands and uh getting to like

watch it dayto day is just an amazing

rate of change. And then I don't like

again I realize it's like

you know I realize that like everything

about babies are very finely tuned over

a long period of evolution to make us

like love them and be fascinated by them

and it's like a neurochemical hack. But

I love it. It's great. It's so strong.

It's so intense.

>> So it's really like almost like a coffee

for your heart or something kind of

>> I don't even know how to find I've tried

to like come up with an analogy to tell

because now I'm like telling everybody

you got to have a lot of kids. It's

really important.

>> Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.

>> And I've been looking for an analogy of

what to explain and and then I always

just say like I I don't know how to

explain this. It's just it is the best

thing I've ever done by far. I feel like

a completely changed person. And I was I

was like thinking the other day like

there used to be all these other like at

this point all I do is work and hang out

with my family. I like I don't

>> I don't like really get to do a lot of

hobbies anymore. It's busy time at work.

>> I don't get to hang out with my friends

that much. Uh

and I and I don't you know there were

like all these things where people tell

you like oh you got to baby come and you

got to go you know take that spontaneous

international trip because you're not

going to be doing that again for a long

time. And I was like oh that is kind of

sad. In practice you don't do it that

often. I at least didn't do it that

often and I don't miss it at all. I like

remember that that used to be a

possibility. Now I can see that's not

going to be a possibility for a long

time and I'm thrilled with the trade.

>> You're moved on.

>> I'm so happy.

>> Um how old is your child?

>> Four months. Oh, that's a funny like at

five or six months they start to get

like fun and you can like they're still

like they can't go anywhere, you know,

but they're like intrigued and stuff.

They start to like smile or process

more. I don't know how you guys say it,

but um

>> yeah, he's totally like turned on

though, like really aware, understands

things. It's super cool.

>> I have a thought sometimes that this

will be one of the last like maybe 40

years that we conceive children in the

body. Did you have any thoughts about

that?

I've definitely heard a lot of people

say that. Um

I haven't thought about it hard myself,

but yeah, I guess it does make sense.

Like

I guess that does make sense.

>> Like God, you were in your mom's butt.

It's crazy. You know, you pervert or

whatever. Like like I think in the

future people will be it'll be kind of

done like in a

>> in a vet or something.

>> Yes. In like a nice vet. You can go see

it on the weekends or whatever. And like

>> doesn't that just feel like off to you?

Like I can totally intellectually like

understand that that may be the better

way to do it.

>> Oh yeah. It feels way off to me. I was

trying to I thought you would like it,

>> you know? I thought I thought

>> I mean

>> like or I thought you that would be like

a thought like I guess I like that for

me that's one of like my futuristic

thoughts, you know,

>> like I can totally accept that that will

be what everybody does and that it's,

you know, easier and we can like make it

healthier for the child and the mother,

you know, the mother doesn't take the

health risk. But man,

so intellectually I can say that and

then like emotionally it feels like ah

something is off of that. Yeah.

>> Oh yeah. Yeah. Cuz then the family like

on the weekends the parents would come

and like tinker on the glass or whatever

or the dad would put like a um you know

like a go falcon sticker on the thing or

you know what I'm saying? People would

like decorate it all up or write little

messages on there. Um,

>> you know, I think there's another like

another take I have on all of this is

that there in this world that we're

heading to of like crazy sci-fi

technology becoming reality, the the

sort of like the deeply human things

will become the most precious, sacred,

valued things

>> and that we'll really care about like

the human experience more than ever. And

maybe it won't go that way. I don't

know.

>> Yeah. Do you uh No. And that's some of

the stuff we want to talk about and

thanks thanks so much man for sitting

down. Um, do you think your child will

go to college? Do you think like what do

you kind of think that looks like?

>> Probably not. Um, if I had to guess,

like I I think Well, I only went to half

of college.

>> You You did you drop out?

>> Yeah,

>> dude. You guys all I freaking dropped

out. I didn't get [ __ ] You dropped out.

Wang dropped out. Zuckerberg dropped

out.

>> Um,

>> probably a lot of other people.

>> And you?

>> Yeah. Yeah. Okay. Well, hey, we're both

here so

>> Oh, it worked out fine.

>> You're right. You know, you're right.

Never mind. I'm sorry. I'm being

self-defeating. Um, yeah. What does that

look like when you think about that?

Like, yeah, with AI, with so much new

information coming online, right? And so

much like data being collected and like

um information being uh carpooled and

and maybe which is a term.

>> So, you you and I never grew up in a

world that didn't have computers, right?

Like, and our parents were like, "Oh,

this there weren't computers." And then

there were and it was this big crazy

adjustment. It took them a long time to

figure it out. to us like computers just

always existed. They were just I mean

maybe they were kind of new but they

were always around

>> and and then like you know a kid that is

like

there was there was this video on

YouTube I saw like maybe 12 years ago

something like that that 14 years ago

that has really stuck with me. It was

like a little baby in a dentist waiting

room or something picking up one of

those old glossy magazines and going

like this.

>> Oh, I remember that. And to that kid, it

was just like a broken iPad because that

kid had just like grown up in a world

where like there were touchscreens

everywhere.

And my kid will never grow up will never

ever be smarter than an AI.

That will never happen. You know, kid

born a few years ago, they had a brief

period of time. My kid never will be

smarter.

>> But also,

they'll never they'll never know a world

where like products and services aren't

way smarter than them and and super

capable. they can just do whatever you

need. And in that world, I think

education's going to feel very

different. I already think college is

like maybe not working great for most

people, but yeah, I think fast forward

18 years, it's going to look like a

very, very different thing.

>> Yeah. Yeah. Do you think there Oh,

here's that video right here. This kid.

>> Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. All right. I was wrong

about the dentist. It was Or maybe

there's a few of these.

>> He's like, "Somebody charged this

magazine." He's yelling. How would you

recommend to a parent right now to

prepare their children for like an AI

future kind of like are there certain

curtails that you would start to put in

now? Are there certain like um you know

adjustments where you like get them in a

certain training or have them start to

watch certain models of things online?

Like what does that you know

>> I I actually think the kids will be

fine. I'm worried about the parents.

>> Ah

>> if you look at the history of the world

here when there's new technology like

people that grow up with it they're

always fluent. They always figure out

what to do. They always learn the new

kind of jobs. But if you're like a

50-year-old

and you have to like kind of learn to do

things in a very different way, that

doesn't always work. Yeah.

>> So, I think the kids are going to be

fine. I mean, I do have worry like I do

have worries about kids in technology.

Like, I think this scrolling the kind of

like, you know, short video feed

dopamine hit, it feels like it's

probably messing with kids brain

development in a super deep way. So,

it's not that I have no worries. I have

like extremely deep worries about what

technology is doing to kids. But in

terms of kids ability to like be

prepared for the future and use a new

technology, they seem really good at

that.

>> Yeah.

>> Always through history.

>> That's a good point actually. Yeah. It's

like if you just grow up with it, it's

just like having it's just totally

normal. It's like having kneecaps or

whatever. You're just kind of used to

it.

>> You can't imagine the world where it

doesn't exist. You just

>> Yeah.

>> Yeah. That's a good point.

>> I remember when I was uh in school in

like junior high and Google first came

out.

>> Mhm. And all the teachers like freaked

out and they're like, "This is the end

of education." You know, I get if you

Why do you have to memorize history

facts in history class if you can just

look them up instantly on the internet?

You don't even have to learn to go to

the library. And the answer is like,

yeah, maybe memorization is less

important, but with these new tools, you

can think better, come up with new

ideas, do new stuff. I'm sure the same

thing happened with the calculator

before.

>> Yeah.

>> And you know, now this is like this is

just a new tool that exists in the tool

chain. And what about like say if there

is somebody though that's like learning

history right now, like they just

started their second year of college.

Oh, that Celsius. Yeah, that thing will

definitely you won't be able to blink

for a month, homie. That thing will

Yeah, you'll sneeze and release 5.0,

dude. You'll freaking Are you guys at

4.5 already?

>> We're 4.5 already. 5.0 is uh I think

it's going to be great.

>> Oh, it'll come out fast if you add that

Celsius to what I'm saying.

>> Maybe the researchers need it, not me.

But uh you know, we'll get them some.

>> Yeah, that thing will get you there,

man. Um so say there's somebody just for

example like that's learning history

right now. They're in their second year

of college. They're they're taking

history. Is that are there some subjects

in like like they they're going to be a

historian? Is that still a viable space

of work? Uh as AI moves forward, do you

think? Honestly,

>> I I assume there will be some version of

it that is uh I I think it's very hard

to predict exactly how something

evolves. Um I or predict exactly the

jobs of the future going to be like the

you know not that long ago it would have

been very hard to predict either of our

jobs if you go back a hundred years the

idea of like this CEO of an AI company

or a podcaster like you know probably

would have been things that didn't seem

to be the most obvious evolutions of the

things people were doing at the time.

>> Yeah. Hey, you just seemed almost

probably crazy even in trying to explain

those to someone.

>> You would. And now, in fact, two of the

job I heard that the job that young

people most want is some version of your

job.

>> The job that young people most want is

to be uh, you know, podcast influencer,

uh, YouTube, they want a YouTube

channel, like whatever it is, they they

like six, seven year olds, they don't

know how to describe it, but that's what

they want.

>> And a lot of people also want my job.

They want to do like a startup or they

want to work on AI. And these just

didn't exist.

>> Yeah. So like the rate with which the

new things come along is is fast and

also trying to predict what they are. I

don't know. The thing I say all the time

is no one knows what happens next. It's

like we're going to figure this out.

It's this weird emergent thing. Does the

current job of a historian exist in the

same way? I would bet not quite. But

another thing I believe is that humans

are obsessed with other people. Like we

are so deeply wired to care about other

people, to care about stories and

history, our own history is extremely

interesting to us. So I would say

somehow or other we're still going to

care about that. There's going to be

some kind of job doing that.

>> Man, that's cool. G I guess I I if

when I take that avenue of thought like

okay there will still be this historian

or somebody it'll be some evolution of

that. Right. That does seem kind of cool

to me because there's a level of

creativity in there. There's a level of

like faith and spontaneity in there that

I think is kind of exciting. So yeah, I

guess I hadn't really thought about

that. Sometimes I get stuck in this

doomsday thing like I just see like you

know like the history book closes and

they're like we have enough we have all

the history over here you know it

>> you know people used to say like oh

there's no need for more music we've

made perfect music like why does anyone

need anyone to create anymore and that's

obviously ridiculous or they would say

there's that famous patent office quote

everything that humans ever possibly

need has been invented there's nothing

left to do

>> I have heard that but here we are

>> here we are and and like

>> someone asked me the other day like you

know how long is it until you can make

like a AI AI CEO for OpenAI. And I was

like, probably not that long. And they

were like, well, aren't you really sad

about that? And I was like, no, I think

it's awesome. I'm for sure going to

figure out something else to do. I'm

excited to do that. Like, I think that's

great.

>> Right. So, you could create something

that would have your job, but then you

could do something else.

>> Totally.

>> But then how do you know that you'll

still get paid for your job? I guess

like

>> Well,

>> that's kind of a big question. I I kind

of think that

>> but yeah I guess the framing of that

question might be better like say there

are jobs that get curtailed by

>> there will be some

>> okay

>> I think it's important to be honest

about that there will be some jobs that

totally go away

>> but mostly I think we we we will rely on

the fact that people's desire for more

stuff for better experiences for you

know a higher social status or whatever

that seems basically limitless human

creativity seems basically limitless and

human desire to like be useful to each

each other and to connect with each

other and do stuff for each other and

focus on other people seems pretty

limitless, too. So, I think throughout

all of history, there have been these

predictions like ah, you know, we're

going to

we're going to like all be on the beach

and work an hour a day or hour a week or

whatever and we're going to have

unlimited wealth and and I've never

heard that. I would I love that.

>> I mean, they used to say this. They used

to like the industrial revolution,

people were like, "Oh, you know, we just

figured out how to automate like man's

lot in life. There's nothing left to do.

We were going to have these machines do

all the work.

>> Makes

>> sense probably.

>> And you watch these machines doing all

this stuff that only people used to

physically do. And everybody panicked

and said there's going to be no more

jobs. And we figured out new stuff to

want. Now, here's an interesting thing.

If you could go back to that industrial

revolution time and people before that

were, you know, really on the grind,

>> working super hard trying to like kind

of have enough food to survive.

>> Go back to those people. Look at our

jobs today. Would those people say we

have real jobs or would they say you

have unbelievable abundance,

unbelievable wealth, so much food to

eat, incredible luxury, and you guys are

just like playing a game to entertain

yourselves. Is that a real job or not?

And they would probably say where they

sit, what you guys do is not a real job.

You guys are, you know, you're too rich.

You're wasting your time. You're trying

to like

>> Yeah. You guys are a couple of dang zest

lords out there freaking playing Uno in

the park or whatever. They They would

not I don't think my grandfather would

be like, "You have a job." He would

still be like, "You need to get a job."

>> Yeah. Totally. And when we look forward

another hundred years of what people are

doing, they'll probably

>> think they're working very hard. It'll

feel very satisfying, very intense to

them. They're really like they'll feel

engaged. They'll be making other people

happy. They'll be creating value for

each other. But if we could look forward

that hundred years at those guys, do you

think we would say they're working or

like man, you have like AI doing

everything for you. You're just trying

to entertain yourselves.

>> Yeah. Like, oh, you guys have it so

easy right?

>> But I think that's beautiful. I think

it's great that those people in the past

think we have it so easy. I think it's

great that we think those people in the

future have it so easy. Like that is the

beautiful story of us all contributing

to human progress and everybody's lives

getting better and better.

say we're able to get to that space,

right? Like the move like the movement

that happens with AI and with just

technology which will advance quicker I

think which is one thing that AI feels

like to me it's a fast forward button on

technology and on uh possibility because

things can be information can be

quantified so quick and a lot of like uh

more menial tasks even though they're

not really menial in people's lives um

but menial hypothetically uh can be done

quicker to get a lot of the framework

for things done fast. But how will

people survive? Like how do we adjust

our structure of finan of like if some

people own the companies that have the

AI and then a lot of people um are just

using the AIS and the agents created by

AIs to do things for them. How will

society like societal members still be

able to financially survive? Will there

still be money? What is that? Does that

make any sense? That question.

>> It totally makes sense. Uh I don't know.

Neither does anybody else. But I'll tell

you my current best guess.

>> Okay.

>> Well, I'll say two guesses. One, I think

it is possible that we put, you know,

GPT7 or whatever in everybody's chat

GBT. Everybody gets it for free and

everybody has access to just this like

crazy thing such that everybody can be

more productive, make way more money.

Doesn't actually matter that you don't

like own the cluster itself, but

everybody gets to use it. And it turns

out even getting to use it is enough

that people are like getting richer

faster and more distributed than ever

before. That could happen. I think that

really is possible.

There's another version of this where

the most important things that are

happening are these systems are

discovering, you know, new cures for

diseases, new kinds of energy, new ways

to make spaceships, whatever. And most

of that value is acrewing to the like

cluster owners, us, just so that I'm not

dodging the question here. And then I

think society will very quickly say,

"Okay, we got to have some new some new

economic model where we share that and

distribute that to people." Uh, I used

to be really excited about things like

UBI. I still am kind of excited like

universal basic income where you just

give everybody money.

>> Yeah, you hear that term a lot. Yeah,

universal basic income. Yeah, I heard

you and Rogan talk about that too a

while back.

>> I still am kind of excited about that.

But I think people really need agency.

like they really need to feel like they

have a voice in governing the future and

deciding where things go. And I think if

you just like say okay

AI is going to do everything and then

everybody gets like a you know dividend

from that it's not going to feel good

and and I don't think it actually would

be good for people. So I think we need

to find a way where we're not just like

if we're in this world where we're not

just distributing money or wealth like

actually

I I don't just want like a check every

month. What I would want is like a

ownership share in whatever the AI

creates so that I feel like I'm

participating in this thing that's going

to compound and get more valuable over

time. So I sort of like universal basic

wealth better than universal basic

income. And I think

>> I don't like basic either. I want like

universal extreme wealth for everybody.

Um but but even then like I think what

people really want is the agency to kind

of co-create the future together

>> and

and in a world where it's like the AI is

mostly coming up with the new scientific

inventions at least we've got to still

have humans like invent the new culture

and have that be a very distributed

thing.

>> Okay. I guess yeah I I I see what you're

saying but would that be like an

American thing do you think? like since

they were invented here or do you think

I'm just wondering what does that look

like you know

>> the economic model of it all or the

whole thing?

>> Yeah. Or like is there a dividend of the

company that then is divided up between

the masses sort of

>> I mean a crazy idea but in the spirit of

crazy ideas is that if the world there's

like eight roughly eight billion people

in the world. If the world can generate

like

eight quintilion tokens per year, if

that's the world, actually let's say the

world can generate 20 trillion quintil

20 quintillion tokens per year.

>> Tokens of

>> like uh each word generated by an AI.

>> Okay,

>> just making up a huge number here. We'll

say okay 12 of those go to, you know,

the normal capitalistic system, but

eight of those eight quintilion tokens

are going to get divided up equally

among 8 billion people. So everybody

gets 1 trillion tokens and that's your

kind of universal basic wealth globally

and people can sell those tokens like if

I don't need mine I can sell them to

you. We could pull ours together for

some like new art project we want to do

but but instead of just like getting a

check you're get everybody on Earth is

getting like a slice of the world's AI

capacity and then we're letting the like

massively distributed human ingenuity

and creativity and economic engine do

its thing. H

>> I mean that's like a crazy idea. Maybe

it's a bad one, but that's the kind of

thing that I think sounds like someone

should think about it more.

>> One of the big fears is like purpose,

right? Like human purpose. Like work

gives us purpose. And also I think the

idea that we are the ones advancing

humanity gives us purpose. Like we are

the

like yeah like we have some

control over our own destiny. maybe

gives us this sense of purpose

and it feels like that we would lose a

sense of purpose or that purpose would

be adjusted like if AI is to really you

know continue to advance so quickly it

feels like our sense of purpose would

start to really disappear.

Do have you had thoughts about that?

>> I worry about this a lot. It's so I

think people have worried about this

with every big technological revolution

but I agree that this time it feels

different like

>> Okay. Yeah. Because if say you had an

axe and somebody came out with a saw,

you're like you're like, "Yeah, that's

it."

>> Or even if they come out with like a a

robot that cuts the tree down, it still

feels fine. But like

>> creativity, intelligence, I think cuts

so deeply at the core of whatever we are

and how we how we value ourselves.

>> Um,

one example we can look at this right

now, I think one area where AI is having

a big impact is on how people write

software for a living. And AI is really

good at that. and it's really changed

what it means to be a software

developer.

I haven't heard any of those software

developers say they they even though

their job is different that they don't

have meaning. They still enjoy it.

They're operating at a higher level. Um

and I'm hopeful at least for a long

time, you know, 100 years from now, who

knows? But I'm hopeful that that's what

it'll feel like with AI is even if we're

asking it to solve huge problems for us.

Even if we ask it to say like, you know,

go discover a cure for cancer,

there will still be a lot of things to

do in that process

that feel valuable to a person.

>> Mhm.

>> You'll still asking it the questions.

You're still like helping guide it.

You're still framing it or whatever it

is. You're still like talking to the

world about it. And

and I think all of human history

suggests that we find a way to put

ourselves at the center of the story and

feel really good about it. Like you know

if you kind of think like

we used to think that the earth was the

center of the solar system and then

we're like very humanentric view and

then we're like okay fine the sun is the

center of the solar system but the solar

system is at least the center of the

galaxy and now oh man there's a lot of

galaxies and oh man now we're this like

tiny speck in this like very huge

universe

and

and yet we still manage to feel all like

a lot of main character energy. And so I

somehow think even in a world where AI

is doing all of this stuff that humans

used to do, we are going to find a way

in our own telling of the story to feel

like the main characters. And I think in

an important sense, we will be. And

that's really good. I also like, you

know, probably already today

there could be a very compelling version

of two AIs talking like this.

And I don't think I would want to watch

that. Like I think I I really do feel

deeply wired to like care about the real

person behind it. I think that's like

deep in the biology,

>> right?

>> Yeah. That's the part that I think a lot

of times it's like even though you can

get into like these wormholes of like

possibility and these fear holes of

possibility or um kind of this dystopian

ideas that in the end I'm like I'd

rather probably watch something that's

real. You know, it's like because I'm

real. You know what I'm saying? like I

don't want to talk really to a robot.

I'd re, you know, Yeah. I think in the

end there's going to be a part of you

that wants to continue to just talk to

um talk to humans. Do you uh

what's like one of your fears? Like

what's a fear you have of AI? Like if

you have like a fearful space that it

could go like I know you mentioned it a

little bit

>> this morning. I I was testing our new

model and I got a question. I got

emailed a question that I didn't quite

understand. Uh, and I put it in the

model, this GPT5, and it answered it

perfectly

and I really kind of sat back in my

chair and I was just like a, oh man,

here it is moment

and I got over it quickly. I got busy

onto the next thing, but it was like a I

mean, this what kind of we were talking

about. I felt like useless relative to

the AI in this thing that I felt like I

should have been able to do and I

couldn't and it was really hard, but the

AI just did it like that. Yeah, it

>> was it was a weird feeling.

>> Yeah, I think that's I think that

feeling right there that's the feeling a

lot of people kind of have like what's

going you know when does it happen?

What's going to happen? Um but I think

some of it is it's like you it's hard to

conceptualize until you're further

along.

>> I I'm all to totally I don't think we

know quite how that's going to feel. You

just have to like approach it step by

step. Another thing I'm afraid of, and

we had a,

you know, a a a real problem with this

earlier, but it can get much worse, is

just what this is going to mean for

users mental health. Um, there's a lot

of people that talk to chatbt all day

long. There are these sort of new AI

companions that people talk to like they

would a a girlfriend or a boyfriend. Um,

and we were talking earlier about how

it's probably not been good for kids to

like grow up like on the dopamine hit of

scrolling, you know, or whatever.

>> Yeah. Do you think that that how do you

keep like um AI from having that same

effect like that negative effect that

social media really has had?

>> I I'm I'm scared of that. I don't I

don't have an answer yet. Uh I don't

think we know quite the ways in which

it's going to have those negative

impacts. Uh, but I feel for sure it's

going to have some and we'll have to I

hope we can learn to mitigate it

quickly.

>> Um, can AI can they pull up pornography

and stuff like that too or No.

>> Sure.

>> Oh my god.

>> God, I didn't know that.

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Yeah, I don't even need to know that.

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Um what legal system do does AI have to

work by? Is there like a legal like are

there like we have laws like in the

world, right? like in the human world is

in does AI have to work by any like

legal laws you know

>> yeah so I I think we will certainly need

a legal or a policy framework for AI um

one example that we've been thinking

about a lot this is like a maybe not

quite what you're asking this is like a

very human centric version of that

question people talk about the most

personal [ __ ] in their lives to chipt

it's you know people use it young people

especially like use it as a therapist a

life coach uh having these relationship

problems, what should I do? And right

now, if you talk to a therapist or a

lawyer or a doctor about those problems,

there's like legal privilege for it, you

know, like it's there's doctor patient

confidentiality, there's legal

confidentiality whatever.

>> And

we don't we haven't figured that out yet

for when you talk to Chat GPT. So, if

you go talk to Chatt about your most

sensitive stuff and then there's like a

lawsuit or whatever, like we could be

required to produce that. And I think

that's very screwed up. I think we

should have like the same concept of

privacy for your conversations with AI

that we do with a therapist or whatever.

And no one had to think about that even

a year ago. And now I think it's this

huge issue of like how are we going to

treat the laws around this?

>> Well, do you think there should be like

kind of like a like a slowing things

down before we move there kind of cuz

Yeah, it is kind of wild. That's one of

the reasons I get scared sometimes to

use certain AI stuff because um I don't

know how much personal information I

want to put in because I don't know

who's going to have it.

>> I think we need this point addressed

with some urgency. Um and you know the

policy makers I've talked to about it

like broadly agree it's just it's new

and now we got to do it quickly. Do you

talk to ChachiT?

>> I don't talk to it that much. One of the

one of my

>> because of this.

>> I think it is. It's because it's like

>> I I think it makes sense.

>> I to not talk to

>> No, no, no. like really want the privacy

clarity before you use it a lot.

>> Yeah.

>> Like the legal clarity.

>> Yeah. It's scary and it's like well how

long does it take lawmakers to come up

with that and then it feels like it's

moving so fast that it's like it doesn't

even ma that that sometimes it's like it

doesn't even really matter. It's like

are we even waiting for the laws to be

put around this or or what's going on?

Does it feel like it's moving too fast

for you sometimes?

>> The last few months have felt very fast.

It feels faster and faster, but the last

few months have felt very fast.

>> Yeah. Yeah, I was watching this guy um

Yosua Benjio.

>> Yashua Benjio.

>> Yosua Benjio. And he's kind of like some

people call him the father of AI. He may

be self-proclaimed. I'm not really sure.

Um but he certainly seemed to be kind of

like a lifeguard for AI, like thinking

about like, well, you know, how do we

keep the pool safe? You know, how much

water should be in it? You know, the

chlorine, what, you know, how many

lifeguards do you need on duty? That

type of thing, hypothetically. Um, and

he said and he was saying that some AIs

they they have like deception techniques

inside of them like that there were AIs

that would rather give you an answer

that was possibly pleasing to the user

than to give them the factual answer. Uh

and then he was also saying that there

were um AIs that were developing some of

their own languages to communicate with

each other which would be languages that

we don't even know. Um what is that how

how do you guys curtail that when those

types of things come up? What does that

even kind of fe feel like to you guys?

Or are these just problems that happen

in new spaces and you figure it out as

you go?

You know, there are these moments in the

history of science where you have a

group of scientists

look at their creation and just say, you

know, what what if what have we done?

What maybe it's great, maybe it's bad,

but what have we done? Like maybe the

most iconic example is thinking about

the scientists working on the Manhattan

project in 1945 sitting there watching

the Trinity test and just you know this

thing that had it was a completely new

not

not human scale kind of power and

everyone knew it was going to reshape

the world and I do think people working

on AI have that feeling in a very deep

way you know we just don't know like we

think it's going to be There's clearly

real risks. It kind of feels like you

should be able to say something more

than that. But in truth, I think all we

know right now is that we have

discovered, invented, whatever you want

to call it, something extraordinary that

is going to reshape the course of human

history.

>> Dear God, man. But if you don't know, we

don't know.

>> Well, of course. I mean, I I think no

one no one can predict the future. Like

human society is very complex. This is

an amazing new technology. Maybe a less

dramatic example than the atomic bomb is

when they discovered the transistor a

few years later.

>> The transistor radio,

>> the little transistor part that you know

made computers and radios and everything

else. But we discovered this completely

new thing that enabled the whole

computer revolution and is in this

microphone and those computers and our

iPhones and like the world would be so

different if people had not discovered

that and then over the decades figured

out how to make them smaller and more

efficient. And now we don't even think

about it because the transistors are

just everything. We have all this modern

technology from that one scientific

discovery. And I do think that's what AI

is going to be like. We had this one

crazy scientific discovery

>> that led to these language models we all

use now.

>> And that is going to change the course

of society in all kinds of ways. And and

of course we don't know what they all

are.

>> Damn. I was hoping you knew by the end

of that sentence or I was hoping you

would you know like that's what we're

cuz we don't know you know like that's I

think the tough thing.

>> There's no time in human history at the

beginning of a century where the people

ever knew what the end of the century

was going to be like.

>> Yeah.

>> So maybe it's I do think it goes faster

and faster each century.

>> Mhm.

>> Certainly like you know in 1900 you

couldn't have predicted what 2000 was

going to be like. I think in 2000 you

could even less predict what 2100 was

going to look like.

But that's kind of why it's exciting and

like that's kind of why people get to

figure out and unfold the story as we

go.

>> It's kind of bizarre because there's a

part of me that's like this guy's out of

his mind. This guy is a is a is a wild

wizard. You know, there's a couple

different things. But then there's also

this part of me that's like this guy is

this hopeful guy what who's like

involved in this crazy space and he kind

of has this whimsical energy about the

future which is in a crazy way a nice

energy to have about the future

generally is that something could happen

or that things are possible. Um, so it

just, yeah, it's all kind of like I

don't know. It's fascinating

to me. Um, Sam to kind of pivot a little

bit. There's, it feels like there's a

race right now in AI, right? Would you

say that there's a race between

companies in AI?

>> It certainly feels that way.

>> Yeah. And it almost feels like you guys

are the new Formula One drivers or you

guys are like the new like uh it's like

um Mario Andredy or you guys are the new

like uh Bubba Watts and all the you know

it's almost like these are the new race

cars that everybody's kind of watching

position themselves. Um

what is the race for? Because you hear

about AI and then you hear about AGI

uh and then you hear about super

intelligence. What is what is this race

that's going on? How real is it? And

what is the race for?

>> When I was a kid, the race was like the

meahertz race and then it became the

gigahertz race. Everybody wanted a

computer with a faster processor. Oh

yeah. You know, Intel would come out

with this one and then AMD would come

out with this one

>> and every like it turned out that those

gigahertz measurements eventually were

not even that helpful. Like you could

have one that had a lower number and it

was in practice it was faster. And

eventually, I think it was Apple that

realized they should just stop talking

about the clock speed of their

computers. And you probably don't even

know what the processor speed of your

iPhone is today.

>> Yeah, it's true. Yeah, that was a big

thing and it kind of disappeared.

>> And I think the same thing has been

happening in AI where everybody was

racing on these benchmarks. You know, I

score this on this benchmark and this on

that one. And now people are realizing

that like, okay, the benchmarks are kind

of saturated. We went through the

equivalent of our megahertz race with

our benchmark race and now people kind

of don't care about that as much and now

it's like who's using the model, who's

getting the value out of it, things like

that. Um, but

but I do think people still feel like

we're heading towards some milestone.

what the milestone is, they disagree on,

but maybe it's maybe it's a system

that's capable of doing its own AI

research and its own sort of

self-improvement. Um, maybe it's a

system that is like smarter than all of

humans put together, but they feel like

there is some

finish line to cross. I actually don't

quite feel like this, but I think a lot

of people in the industry that there's

some finish line that we're going to

cross. Maybe it's this like

self-improvement

moment. Maybe you call that super

intelligence. Um, and I think there is a

sort of

there's like a race to get somewhere,

but people don't agree on where it's to

or something.

>> What are you racing towards? You feel

like

>> It's a great question. Um, I don't have

like a finish line in mind. There's

nothing I could say to I don't think I

can articulate anything where I would

say like this is mission complete. But

if I if I had to give like a self

referential answer there, you know, the

moment where we would rather give our

research cluster like our, you know,

GPUs that we run all of our AI

experiments on, the moment where we

would rather give that to an AI

researcher rather than our brilliant

team of human researchers, that does at

least seem like some kind of very

different new era.

>> Yeah. And at that point, who's even we?

I feel like it's just you kind of like

wheeling the stuff across the hall in a,

you know, like who's going to, you know

what I'm saying? Like, you know what I'm

saying? It starts to get this idea like

if we keep if ever, if things were to

keep leaving the the people and go to

the computer,

>> you're just shoveling coal into the AI

hypothetically. You know,

>> again, I assume that what will happen,

like with every other kind of

technology, is we'll realize like we

there's this one thing that the tool's

way better than us at. Now, we got to go

solve some other problems. So, let's put

our brain power there. I I somehow don't

think it'll ever feel like we all just

get to like push a button and go on

vacation.

>> Got it.

>> Um like we will I think as one one

version of this is as uh as capabilities

go up because as we get better tools the

expectation goes way up too. And so

we've got to like

>> yes we get much better tools but we have

to do way more to remain competitive.

>> Well I think there's this hopeful idea.

Say if you come up with all these

>> or maybe not like maybe maybe the AI is

just better than us at absolutely

everything and we just sit there being

like all right that was cool.

>> Yeah because well at a certain point if

something has all the information right

if something has all the information and

it can think and and and ponder and uh

pontificate and serve multi options of

answers. Aren't we then working for that

thing? Like that's what I start to

wonder like if it's the smartest thing

in the room.

>> GPT5 is the smartest thing. GB5 is

smarter than us in almost every way. you

know, and yet here we are.

>> So, there's like there's something about

the way the world works. There's

something about this doesn't mean it's

true forever, but there's something

about what humans can do today that is

so different. There's also something

about what humans care about today that

is so different than AI that I don't

think the simplistic thing quite works.

Now, again, by the time it's a million

times smarter than us,

>> who knows?

>> Is part of you want to kind of get

there? Like how do we get where like I

open the door and you and I say excuse

me sir and it's just my computer in

there. You know what I'm saying? Like

>> you know when

when I was a kid

I

I sort of thought about these

technological revolutions that happened

one at a time. There was the agriculture

revolution a long time ago and that

freed us up to do these other things.

And then there was the like there was

the age of enlightenment and there was

the industrial revolution and there was

the computer revolution and all these

things happened and I thought of them as

like these distinct things and now I

view it as just this one long

compounding exponential where

all of these things come together. Each

piece of technology is built

continuously overlapping on the one that

comes before

>> and we're able to just do more and more.

And so in some sense AI is this big

special unique different thing. And in

some other sense it is just part of this

long arc of human progress. We talked

about the transistor earlier but like

>> that was way more important in some

sense to AI happening than the work we

do now. And all this stuff has to like

compound compound. You got to build the

internet. You got to get all this data.

You got to do all these things. And

and I want that exponential to keep

going. There will be things way after

AI. We'll invent all sorts of new

things. We'll go colonize space. we'll

go, you know, build neural interfaces.

Who knows what else we'll do?

But I think at some point AI fades into

that arc of history. We build, we don't

we don't even think about it. It's like

transistors, which you don't even think

about today. It's just another layer in

the scaffolding that humans collectively

have built up bit by bit over time. And

where you sitting our day, you get to

open that door. You have this like

computer that only has one interface.

You just it says what do you want? You

say whatever you want. It happens. and

you figure out amazing new things to

build for the next generation and the

next and the next and we just keep

going.

>> Yeah. I think the the part that I think

gets spooky is I can't build any I can

build some stuff but I can't build like

any technological stuff. So then I'm

like dang dude well I'm not going to

what am I going to build over there?

Okay. So, right now I can write

software, maybe you can't

>> and I have a little advantage if I want

to go build some technological thing.

Very soon you can make any piece of

software you want cuz you just ask an AI

in English. You say, "I got an idea for

an app. Make me this thing."

>> And the whole thing just happens.

>> So, that's a win for you. Maybe it's a

little bit of a loss for me. I think

it's kind of cool for the whole world.

>> Yeah.

>> But

>> like this is this is going to be a

technology that anybody can use. You can

just like with natural language you can

say this is what I want and it goes off

and writes the code for you, debugs it

for you, deploys it for you

>> and then you can say how do I use what I

just created.

>> Yeah. But if you have a great idea, AI

will just make it happen for you.

>> And this is a new thing. Like this is

this I think this will make technology

the most accessible it ever has been.

>> Got it. Okay. Then that seems a little

bit different. I think there's this idea

in my head that I'm going to have to

figure out all this coding. I have to

figure out all of these different ways

to do things to even have a possibility

of of use of myself in the future.

>> No, I think this is uh without talking

too much about the future and what we're

going to launch like the fact that you

will be able to have an entire piece of

software created just by like explaining

your idea is going to be incredible for

humans getting great new stuff. Cuz

right now, I think there's like a lot

more good ideas than people who know how

to make them. And if AI can do that for

us, we're really good at coming up with

creative ideas.

>> Yeah. I mean, that's one of the things

that people like to do. Um, do you think

right now if if humans, regular average

humans, most humans could vote to keep

AI going or to stop AI? What do you

think that they

>> Great question.

>> What do you think that they would vote?

>> This is like totally kind of I don't

have any data for this. I would bet most

people who use chatbt, which is a lot of

people know, they would say like keep it

going. And most people who don't would

say it's scary, stop it.

>> What do you think?

>> Yeah, I feel like most people would say

stop it, I think. Or pause it, take the

wheels off of it for a month, that kind

of thing. Siphon the gas out of the

tank, you know, like that kind of thing.

Put sugar in it. I think there like that

kind of thing, you know.

>> What are you most afraid of with it? Or

is it just that we're not going to have

purpose and we don't know how it's all

going to go?

>> Yeah. I mean, those are some of the huge

parts. But I think like there's like um

probably that I think that in the end I

think there's a general feeling of like

well if all the trucking jobs disappear

you know if those become automated and

um

and like yeah if everything becomes a

robo tax like you know will that feel

you know where will those people go for

jobs will everybody just be dancing on

TikTok trying to get people to tip them

for trends and stuff you know like

there's part of that I had this dream

years ago that it all ends with

everybody's driving an Uber and

literally holding each other at gunpoint

to be each other's passengers, right?

Like get in my cuz that's how bad like

somebody's like I need to fair more than

you do. You know, my whole family's in

the back seat sit shotgun we'll get you

to wherever you know like people are

literally holding each other at gunpoint

to subscribe to their Only Fans and

stuff like it's just that um dystopian

or whatever. Um, so I guess part of

that, but then there's a deeper part

where it's like, yeah, what comes out of

us if it feels like a lot of the regular

stuff that gives us purpose that we know

right now gives us purpose? Is there a

new evolution of our purpose? Is there

like a blooming inside of us? Is it this

utopian place that you almost think of

as like a heaven idea where you know

people's are fed and have enough you

know can take are provided for can take

care of themselves

I guess that's that that's it or what

because purpose gives people work work

gives people so much of their purpose

and so for to lose those things what is

it what happens you know and I know I

kind of keep asking that over and over

again you don't really have the answers

and that's it's okay of course how could

you we're not in the future

>> I mean I think people really do love to

be useful to each other and people love

to express their creativity as part of

that.

>> And

as the long-term trend of society

getting richer has continued, more

people I think are able to do get closer

to sort of expressing themselves in the

best way that they can. May maybe like

you know as recently as

five or six hundred years ago not very

many people got to be artists. The world

wasn't that rich. There were a limited

number of patrons that could like pay

you to create art but there were more

than zero. And before that there were

almost none. And then you got this

beautiful Italian Renaissance and all of

this amazing art uh because there was

like excess capital in the world. And

now a lot more people can be artists or

a lot more people can start startups

which is another like for me that's like

my expression of creativity

>> right

>> um or more people can create content.

>> Yeah.

>> Uh and

>> and this idea that

people can find whatever way they can to

express themselves, their talent, their

vision. um for kind of collective love

of other people and a care for putting

their brick in society's progress.

I think that can go really far. Now,

what art in the future looks like now

that AI can make art or help make art, I

don't know. It'll probably be kind of

different what startups will look like

in the future when people can kind of

just say whatever they want to their AI

and it can make this off of them, right?

Then it will kind of be different. But

but I think it's such a bad bet to

assume that either human creativity or

human fulfillment from being useful to

other people ends. I think we're just we

stay on this exponential and like each

year, each decade, our collective

standard of living goes way up. The

whole world gets way richer. We all get

more. We all expect more. And

even over like the course I was thinking

recently like food is so much better

than it is when I was a kid. Like the

world has just figured out how to make

food better. Like we, you know, know how

to we figured out organic vegetables or

whatever it is. I don't know. It just

tastes much better. And like I think

that's great. I don't want to go back to

eating like the frozen carrots or

whatever.

>> Yeah, I guess that's a good point. But

then there's some like I saw this thing

the other day. It was like a K. They had

like one of those robo kitchens or

whatever. You know when you order food

from like something Dash or whatever and

then you uh but it's like Hank's ribs

and then it's like Marty's Pizza and

then it's like Susan's salami shop but

they're all the same place, you know?

>> And when you get that from window Dash

>> Yeah.

>> Uh you don't you don't like you feel

like something's missing, right? You're

like, "Ah, this is fake. I can tell. I

get less enjoyment." You would rather

get that food from like the dude who's

been making it and perfecting it on the,

you know, that little pizza shop on the

corner for the last 20 years, right?

>> Because that's like part of like that

dude is part of the experience. That

authenticity is part of the experience.

>> I don't think that goes away with the

like fake robotic thing.

>> Okay.

>> Yeah. Because I think I start to feel

like we're in this universe where it's

like you're walking down the street or

something and like a Whimo goes by and

it's like eat now and you're like but

and you already did eat. It's just got a

bad reading or something. It's got a bad

valve in it or something. You're like

yelling at it. There's nobody in there.

And you're like, "I already ate." And

it's like, "Sit down and eat now." And

it just like [ __ ] uses like a t-shirt

cannon to just like shoot a burrito at

you. And then you're sitting there,

you're eating that, you know? And then

the GLP car goes by, right?

>> It says, "I can help you out."

>> Yes. And it's like obviously you've

overe and you're like, "I didn't even

want to eat. That thing's messed up,

right? You're yelling at a car that has

no driver in it." And then it shoots you

with three GLP1 darts in the neck. And

now your wife don't even recognize you

when you get home or whatever. You know,

>> the fact that you find this so

off-putting, I think is a sign for

optimism.

>> Yeah.

>> Like a good point.

>> You're wired. You're going to be

resistant to that. That's not going to

make you happy. That's not going to make

other people happy. Now, maybe we get

tricked. Like social media tricked us

for a while. We got too addicted to

feeds, whatever. But we realized like

actually this is not helping me be my

best. you know, like doing the

equivalent of getting the like

burrito cannon into my mouth on my phone

at night, like that's not making me

long-term happy,

>> right?

>> And that's not helping me like really

accomplish my true goals in life. And I

think if AI does that, people will

reject it. However, if chatbt really

helps you to figure out what your true

goals in life are and then accomplish

those, you know, it says, "Hey, you've

said you want to be a better father or a

better, you know, you want to be in

better shape or you, you know, want to

like grow your business." Um,

if you want, we can change that goal and

I can help you scroll TikTok all night

or, you know, eat the burritos or

whatever and I'll give you the GLP1

shots and I'll make you as healthy as

you can. But like, maybe instead I can

try to help convince you you should go

for a run tonight. M

>> and I think if AI feels like it is

helping you try to accomplish your goals

and be your best that will feel very

different than the last generation of

technology.

>> Yeah. And you know what and that's where

I'm like and that's where a kid growing

up right now to them that would probably

some young people might be like that

makes the most sense. I'm a little older

generation might be like oh that seems a

little but that's always how things are

generation to generation.

>> Always how it goes.

>> Yeah you're right. And maybe this is

just like a quicker evolution of things

and for young people it's going to make

so much sense and for older people it's

and you're just going to be like get off

my you know avatar lawn or something you

know. Um

>> but that's the way of societal progress.

That's just how it goes.

>> Good point.

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Um, there's there's definitely been a

lot of talk about like tech and

governance, right? And I know we touched

on it a little bit earlier. Um, and

there were people like lobbying in the

uh in Trump had a big beautiful bill for

like a 10-year ban on uh state

legislation against AI. Um, what do you

think about that? Like letting it be

this rogue space.

>> There have to be some rules here. There

has to be some like guidelines. There

has to be some sort of regulation at

some point. I think it'd be a mistake to

let each state do this kind of crazy

patchwork of stuff. I think like one

countrywide approach would be much

easier for us to be able to innovate and

still like have some guardrails, but

there have to be some guardrails.

>> Do you have you met with governments and

like government leaders to have

discussions like that? Like are they

meeting with you because they might they

>> Yeah. Yeah, they do meet with us. They

haven't done anything big yet, but

they're talking about it.

>> Do they meet with you to try to keep

information out of um you guys' data?

we, you know, for all of the paranoia

about that, I don't think we've ever had

someone come say like, I don't want it

to say this negative thing about this

politician or this whatever. Uh

the the concerns are like, what is this

going to do to our kids? You know, are

they going to stop learning? There's a

lot of concerns about that. Um is this

going to spread fake information? Is

this going to influence elections? But

we've never had the like you can't say

bad things about the president, Trump,

or whatever.

Um, what about

>> bias is a big like they they do want to

know like, you know, if it'll say bad

things about one candidate, it'll say

bad things about the other.

>> Could you guys make it do one or the

other? Like can you guys favor the back

end or like

>> We totally could. I mean, we don't, but

we totally could.

>> You could.

>> Yeah.

>> Wow.

>> Yeah. I think like I

>> How do we know you How do you like do we

give you guys lie detector tests? Like

how do we know?

>> We have to like test the system. I mean,

you can anyone can like test the AI and

say if I say this, does it say this? If

I say that. Oh, that's a good point. But

you you touch on a really big point here

which is like hundreds of millions of

people talk to ChachiBT every day and it

probably has like a big impact on

what they believe and so I think

society's interest in making sure that

we are you know a responsible neutral

party should be huge. Now people do test

it a lot and I think that's good but

like we got to be held to a very high

standard there. But how do we like just

as regular people or how do like regular

people just hold you guys to a high

standard? Like is it the I guess it's

politicians responsibility or I mean

these guys are idiots on their like

80year-old dudes giving thumbs up. That

one guy couldn't get the Wi-Fi on.

Remember that guy? That guy couldn't get

the Wi-Fi on. So I'm like how do we

>> I mean there's a huge amount of people

that test our systems all the time

looking for any errors, any bias, any

anything.

>> I guess that's a good point is we can

test this.

>> You can tell. Yeah.

>> Right. people can test it on this end.

Um,

as as AI grows, like how big do data

centers need to be?

>> Is that a concern of you guys?

>> I went recently to one of our new data

centers under construction in Abene,

Texas.

>> This is about like a approximately 1

gawatt facility. Huge. You know, it'll

be the biggest data center ever built by

the time it's done. And you stand in the

middle of that and the scale of this

project

just hits you. so big. That's like one

little That's like one little part of

it,

>> dude. That's like eight Costco.

>> Uh, you know, there's like 5,000 people

there doing construction on it and this

thing is just standing up, making

progress every day.

>> And you stand in the middle of this.

>> And are you in a chariot or whatever?

Like, how do you even

>> You're like in a little ATV.

>> Oh, okay.

>> Uh, it's like a dirty kind of

construction site. Um, but it the scale

of this thing and then you kind of go in

every room and you look at all the

cables, the power, the cooling systems,

rack after rack after ser of server of

servers. It's humongous. There's like

they're standing up these like power

plants right in the middle of it.

There's

>> Oh, yeah.

>> It's crazy.

>> It looks It starts to make our planet

look like um a software board, like a

>> It does. You know, when you see it from

the air, I was really struck by that.

But I was like, "This looks like the

motherboard of a computer."

>> Yeah, it looks like the motherboard of a

computer. You start to see like how the

planets in like a lot of these like uh

sci-fi movies, a lot of them look have

that R2-D2 look on the outside of them

because they've been

>> covered in data centers.

>> Yeah. Which is kind of wild. Do you know

where we're going and you're not telling

us? Do you

>> I don't I don't.

>> You promise, dude?

>> I don't know. I mean, I have all my

guesses. Like I do guess that a lot of

the world gets covered in data centers

over time. Do you really?

>> But I don't know cuz maybe we put them

in space. Like maybe we build a big

Dyson sphere on the solar system and

say, "Hey, actually makes no sense to

put these on Earth."

>> Yeah.

>> I wish I had like more concrete answers

for you,

>> but like we're stumbling through this.

We maybe, you know, have a little bit

higher confidence than the average

person or can but there's so much we

don't know yet.

>> No, I that's the craziest thing about

you, Sam. And and I I think this is a

compliment somehow, dear God. And it

Yeah, it is a compliment. You're like

It's like you're like, "Come with me

through the universe." And you're like,

people are like, "What's it like?" And

you're like, "I don't know exactly, but

and then we're all go." It's like we're

all going. It's like, um, I don't know.

You're just somehow the most like uh

you're this like this charming kind of

terminator. It feels like, and I hate to

say Terminator, that's a crazy term, but

like uh but you're this like I'm like,

"Okay, I'm curious. You somehow seem so

optimistic about it. I'm it it adds to

my curiosity." When I was a kid, I

assumed that there were always some

adults in the room. Someone had a plan.

Someone knew everything that was going

to happen. Someone had it all figured

out.

>> And I sort of think why people like

conspiracy theories is it's nice to

think that someone's got a plan. It's

nice to think someone that

>> uh, you know, has it all figured out.

And then I got a little bit older and I

sort of started to suspect there are no

adults in the room. No one People have

plans. I have plans, but no one has all

the answers. No one knows where it's all

going to go. Uh, and now that I am the

adult in the room, I can say with

certainty, no one knows where it's all

going to go. Like, I'm the guy in the

room and I have some guesses and I have

some plans. Uh, and we're working really

hard. But like, you know, we try to

always say what we think the

possibilities are,

>> what we think is most likely. Often

we're right. Sometimes it's in the

broader set. And sometimes it goes in a

totally different direction than

anything we thought. And you know, we

keep trying to make progress, figure out

more. We try to tell people, not just

tell, we try to show people by like

deploying these systems and say, "You

can go use it. Don't just take our word

for it. Try it out. See what it can do."

>> Yeah.

>> Um, but like I can say with conviction,

the world needs a lot more processing

power. But if that looks like tiling

data centers on Earth, which I think is

what it looks like in the short term, in

the long term also, or we do go build

them in space, I don't know. It sounds

cool to try to build it in space, but

also really hard.

>> What about like the environmental

effects of those and stuff? Like there's

been like, you know, there's been

articles written and I don't know how

much of it is real or not real, right?

Because who knows what to believe, but

you'd have to think that, you know, it

takes water to cool them, right? It

takes power to power them. You know, um

there's some in like Arizona and Iowa

that there's been like repercussions

within the environments there in the

communities. uh what and and a lot of

those companies don't have to report

those things because it's considered

proprietary, you know. Um what do you

think about those fears?

>> Um

>> or how do you guys manage that? Like do

you guys talk about that? Do you meet

with environmentalists? Like what does

that all look like?

>> I think we need to get to fusion as fast

as possible.

>> Get to what?

>> Nuclear fusion. Uh I think that is the

>> Oh [ __ ] What is it? where you basically

knock two small atoms together and it

makes a bunch of energy but no carbon,

very clean, doesn't generate, you know,

doesn't really harm the environment and

power can become like abundant and

pretty limitless on Earth and we get out

of all the current problems we're in.

>> Are you guys investing in that?

>> We are and I think AI can help us figure

it out even faster. So that's like a,

you know, if you have to like burn a

little bit more gas in the short term,

but you figure out, you know, the future

of energy with that AI, it's a huge win.

And would you guys sell tickets to that

or what do you think that would be like?

>> Yeah, I think we

>> are going to watch that [ __ ] I mean,

yeah, people go to monster trucks. You

don't think they'll roll up to watch

those two things hit each other?

>> The atoms hit each other. It's pretty

hard to watch two atoms hit each other,

but maybe with the, you know, somehow we

can do it.

>> Or what if they did like those sperm

races where they put them under those

big things or whatever?

>> I love those sperm races.

>> Kind of crazy.

>> I

>> I'm like, dude, there's enough of that

going on.

>> Look, I think the

uh Yeah, there will be some way to watch

Fusion. And it'll be awesome and it'll

be like loud and bright and theatrical

and it'll be making huge amounts of

energy. Um even if you can't watch the

two atoms hit, you'll watch them

collectively produce a fireworks. Um

>> but we're going to need that. Do you

think if we're going to get to

>> I think so.

>> If we're going to get to uh AGI or or if

we're going to get to super

intelligence, do we need that?

>> I bet we can get there without it. But

to provide it at the scale that humanity

will demand it, I think we do need it

because people the the the desire to use

this stuff, people are just going to

want more and more and more. And

eventually like the the two things that

I think matter most, the two kind of

critical inputs are intelligence and

energy. The ability to like have great

ideas, come up with plans and then

energy is the ability to like make them

happen in the world and also to run the

intelligence. And I think the story of

the next couple of decades is going to

be that demand for these goes up and up

and up to crazy heights. And we better

find out how to produce a lot.

Otherwise, someone's going to feel like

they're getting screwed.

>> Yeah.

Dang, dude. I can't tell if I'm excited

or scared. Maybe I'm both. And maybe

it's all the same.

>> You have to be both. You have to be

both. I don't know if it's the same

thing or not. I think it is kind of like

they do feel related to me always. Um,

but I don't think anyone

could honestly look at the trajectory

humanity is on and not feel both excited

and scared.

>> Yeah.

And maybe that's always been the way

throughout time. And also then this is

where we are. What are we going what are

you going to do? You know, like this is

where we are. And so that's what's going

on. Um,

I I saw where you and Joe Rogan spoke

about there possibly being one day like

an AI president, you know, where like

what if you had this one kind of let's

just use the term supercomputer or this

agent that was created that knew all the

information and knew all of the problems

and knew the best ways to solve them.

Um,

I is that do you think that something

like that is becoming more and more

possible one day? I don't know

everything that it takes to be a

president, but I do know it like takes a

lot of things that I don't have to do

and that that people are going to well

maybe I could reframe it to an AI CEO of

OpenAI because I do know what that job

is like.

>> Okay,

>> that should be possible someday. Maybe

not even that far. Like I think the idea

to look at an organization to make

really good decisions, there's a lot of

things you can imagine that an AI CEO of

OpenAI could do that I can't I can't

talk to every person at OpenAI every

day. I can't talk to every user of

CHACHT every day. Um I cannot synthesize

all that information even if I could.

But an AI CEO could do that and it would

have better information, more context.

It could, you know, massively

parallelize this. And I think that would

lead to better decisions in many cases.

>> Yeah. Because wouldn't a supercomputer

something that has all knowledge, which

you think we'll get there?

>> I do.

>> You do.

>> Or I mean all knowledge is a hard thing

to say. I think it will have vast vast

amounts.

Will it be able to tell us about God or

anything? Do you think?

>> I'm super curious about that. Uh,

I think it will be able to help us

answer questions about the nature of the

universe that we currently can't. And I

feel very confused and very unsatisfied

with our current answers. And there is

clearly, to me at least, something going

on well beyond our current capability to

understand. And I would love to know

what that is.

>> Do you think it could help us learn

more? Yes.

>> Would it does I wonder if God has a

chat GBT or whatever or just wonder he

got he has the first one or whatever.

But yeah, I'm just so curious like how

would that work? Um how does how does

Open AI make money?

>> We sell Chacht. You pay 20 bucks a

month. Some people pay 200, but very few

or relatively few

>> perverts. I think they are

>> uh mostly hopefully they're just working

super hard and using it for to be more

productive at their job.

>> And then we also sell an API

>> so businesses can use and they like pay

us every time they make an API call.

>> Okay. Um

do you think uh like there's a lot of

these like kind of tech lords that are

rocking right now, right? And you get

thrown in there, you know,

>> sometimes I'm like on the periphery.

Yeah.

>> Yeah. Or you get certainly like Yeah.

like these council these councilmen kind

of like do you think there's bad artists

um amongst like these tech lords in

these in these AI realms? Do you think

there's bad artists out there?

>> What does bad artist mean?

>> Just like people that want for evil and

not for good.

>> I think most people

don't wake up I think very few people

wake up every morning saying I'm going

to try to make the world a worse place

or I'm going to actively try to do evil.

Clearly some do, but I think most of

these people running the big tech

efforts are not in that category. I

think people get blinded by ambition. I

think people get blinded by competition.

I think people

get caught up like very well-meaning

people can get caught up in very

negative incentives. Negative for

society as a whole.

>> Um, and by the way, I include I include

us in this. Like we can totally get

caught up in we can be very well-meaning

but get caught up in some incentive and

it can lead to a bad outcome. Um, so

that's kind of what I would say. I think

people come in with good intentions.

They clearly sometimes do bad stuff.

>> There's a lot of talk about like

Palunteer and Peter Teal and their

company about being like a um, you know,

they got a deal with from Trump about to

have this surveillance or not a

surveillance state, but to create a

database on most of uh, America, but I

it starts to feel like a surveillance

state, you know. Um, do you feel like we

will need something like that in order

for uh the future? You know, do you feel

like something like that is included in

the future?

>> So, I don't know about that

specifically. I I mean, I think

Palanteer and Peter do a lot of great

stuff. Uh, but I again, I can't comment

on this specifically.

I'll say generally I am worried that the

more AI in the world we have the more

surveillance the world is going to want

cuz the tools so powerful the government

will say like how do we know people

aren't using it to make bombs or

bioweapons or whatever

>> and the answer will be more surveillance

and I'm very afraid of that. So I don't

I think we really have to defend

rights to privacy. I don't think those

are absolute. I'm like totally willing

to compromise some privacy for

collective safety, but history is that

the government takes that way too far

and I'm really nervous about that.

>> Do you guys feel like the new government

kind of or do you feel like the

government is still like a real thing?

>> I don't feel like the government anyway.

>> You don't? when the US government bombed

Iran recently. I remember waking up that

morning and seeing that news or whatever

time it was. Uh,

and I was like, "Oh,

that's what actual power looks like."

You know, that we're in like a maybe

someday we get there. But it was like a

really stark reminder of however

important we think this is. It's like

there are people that have just like

this unimaginable power and might and

can kind of do whatever they want. And

that's definitely not us. Yeah. Yeah. I

think that's been a lot in the Middle

East recently is just like it's just

such a gross displays over there

sometimes of inhumity.

>> Absolutely.

>> It's sad. Um what do you think a guy

like then like Palanteer or Peter Teal's

endgame is? Do you think he has an

endgame? Because I think he seems like a

dark lord to a lot of us and it's like

he does you think he has an endgame that

is like happy?

>> I think Peter is one of the most

brilliant people I've ever met. Uh I

think

>> Oh, he's smarter than me. That's for

sure.

>> I think he does get characterized in the

media as this like evil mastermind

>> as a villain. He does. I never met him.

>> I met him. I We're very close friends.

Uh I

>> I should have brought it up then.

>> No, it's all good. No, no, no, no. It's

all good. I I I don't feel that energy

from him, but I at all like I

in fact I think he's been one of the

most important forces at least in my

life for questioning assumptions about

the path that society was on and maybe I

was like oh I thought this was all going

well but maybe we are in a tax

stagnation and maybe we really do have

this huge economic challenge that no

one's talking about and and so I think

these people who are just very

that think very differently. He would

call it very contrarian is

super important to a society. Now on the

other hand um

you know maybe he

um maybe he sometimes does things like

this that don't do him any favors when

it

>> you would prefer the human race to

endure right?

Uh,

>> you're hesitant.

>> Well, I Yes.

>> I don't know. I I would

I would um

>> This is a long hesitation. So many

longesitation. There's so many questions

and

>> should the human race survive?

>> Uh, yes. Okay. But, but

>> God, I mean, 22 seconds it took him.

>> Yeah. So if he were if he were maybe

like

a more typical person, he would have

just said an immediate yes and then said

what else he wanted to say. And it took

me a while with him to understand that

his brain just works differently.

>> And society needs some of that. Like he

has these super different takes and then

he doesn't have maybe the circuit in his

brain that makes him immediately say yes

and then say what he was going to say.

>> But you know

>> his processors. Yeah.

>> I'm very grateful he exists because he

thinks of things no one else does. Yeah,

I you know, yeah, you have you want

there novel thinkers have changed things

throughout time. Sometimes for the

better and sometimes for the worse,

sometimes for the indifferent, but novel

thinkers have have you've always like I

don't know, it's always been part of

humanity.

>> I'm probably super different and super

weird relative to most people, but you

know, maybe I have some ideas as part of

that that are like valuable to society

collectively. And if I had this sort of

very standard mindset, I wouldn't.

>> That's a good point.

Yeah. Well, do you think, and I'm just

going to ask you, bro, honestly, do you

think a lot of these guys have I mean,

you know, it's not like, you know, Love

on the Spectrum is like a big show,

right? People, you know, it's like, and

those people are in love [ __ ] Every

half people I know are just, you know,

>> barely, you know, they're crying in

parking lots or whatever. But, um, you

know, their spousal issues, whatever.

But anyway, what I'm saying is, do you

think that uh some of the creators now

and some of the the tech lords are

almost have some tech built into them?

Like almost a I don't want to say like

an autism, dude, cuz

>> you couldn't say that.

>> Okay.

>> I think so. I mean, yeah. I I you know,

to take the kind of like harshest look

at us collectively, I can, you know, are

we a little autistic on the whole? I I

would say probably.

>> Okay, dude. I knew that [ __ ]

>> But that's all right.

>> No, no, that's what I'm saying. years

ago I was meet first time I ever met

some people with autism I was like dude

these guys are computers right like a

lot of these guys are just you know

they're some they're kind of like a

little bit of a cyborg in some way in

the way that they think right

>> you know look I'm you are this like

impossibly charming cool guy and I'm

like kind of a lot more computery than

you

>> not much though

>> we can have it we can still like

>> figure it out

>> yeah and I I really don't mean as an

offense but I think that we may need

that in people to get whatever's next in

the world you You think that's

realistic?

>> Yeah. I think society needs like this

very broad diversity of people. You need

some people like me. You need some

people who are more normal than me. You

don't want too many of me. But like

>> Yeah. Yeah. You don't want too many of

anyone thing. Yeah.

>> Yeah. I'm just always I'm like, "God,

yeah, these people are able to see

things differently and quantify things

differently." Do you always feel

because some tech guys are they just

have a different understanding of

possibility, right? A different

understanding of feeling and thing. Do

you feel human all the time?

>> I do feel human all the time, but I feel

like I I have noticed that I think

extremely differently about the future,

about exponential change, about

compounding technology than than almost

anybody else that I kind of come across

in regular life. So

>> that's cool.

>> I feel extremely human. I feel like, you

know, driven by crazy emotions as much

as anybody. But I am like very aware

that I have a different lens than a lot

of people. Have you met some people in

tech space and you're like, "Whoa, that

guy is only like six or seven%. He's

low. He not a lot of human in it."

>> Yes.

>> Yeah. Okay.

Um, do you think it's inevitable that AI

or AGI will merge into our bodies? I

know you've talked about this before in

the past. As things go along and advance

quickly, do you start to see that a

little bit differently? I know you've

talked about how you don't think it's

like a glasses thing or something like

that.

>> I'll tell you a fascinating story.

>> Okay. I was with a friend last week

>> and did I offend you by asking you that?

>> Not at all. I thought that was a great

answer and I really appreciate it

because yeah, some of us are we can't

conceptualize sometimes how you guys are

thinking. It can't I I can't even like

we feel like we can't figure it out, you

know? So, it feels like it's almost like

a unique it's like are we all evolving

into this new kind of species and that's

where we meet the future at anyway and

you're just like the dang Paul River out

there, you It's like

>> for better or for worse, it's I think

whenever you see someone who thinks

differently than you, it's like like I'm

fascinated by you. I don't quite

understand how you do your thing. I know

I couldn't do it. I know you like just

understand the world differently than

me, but I think that's cool and I'm just

like all right, I'm glad.

>> Yeah, that's how I feel.

>> I think it's just thanks for just

talking to me about it cuz sometimes I

think I get afraid to say that.

>> I don't think I don't think you should

be afraid. I don't think anybody would

be offended by that. Um, I was talking

to this friend of mine though about how

he uses CHBT and he's been using it a

lot for a couple years now and he

noticed recently that he start he

started giving it personality tests.

He'd upload any personality test he

could find to Chachib and say based on

what you know about me,

answer this. And he had never he had

never like told it here's my

personality. it had just learned it from

the questions he asked over the years

>> and on everyone he tried it got exactly

the answer and the exactly the outcome

he would get

>> and so that's not like he didn't get

uploaded he didn't get merged he didn't

plug something into his brain but

somehow like the pattern of him had

gotten imprinted into this AI

>> wow maybe we're not as complex as we

think we are

>> or maybe we are and AI can just learn it

really well AI can like represent these

very complex things. One of those two.

But that was a real moment for me of

like, wow, you know, the merge maybe can

happen in a very different way than we

thought.

>> Yeah. Yeah. Because you think of it as

this thing kind of taking over your

system and like, you know, your dad

presses a button and you can't use the

car, you know, you can't move for a

month or whatever.

>> Yeah. I think it it kind of has that

sort of energy. Um,

>> you just you just finished the

acquisition of this a little bit more

like day-to-day business. You just

finished the acquisition of Johnny Ives

um hardware company um

their hardware company. So clearly you

have some like thoughts or

interest in how like hardware and AI

match up for each other in humanity.

What was that about?

>> There have been two revolutions in

computers in history. There was the

keyboard, mouse and screen. that thing

that was invented down the street in I

think the 70s uh where

you know the people at Xerox Park

figured out what has become the modern

computer interface and then in the early

to mid the early 2000s I guess Apple

figured out this idea of touch on a

device and really those have been the

two big ones.

I think now there can be a third. I

think AI is it so changes the game that

you can design a new kind of computer

based off of a really smart AI where you

can give a complex instruction to a

system. It can go do it. You'll trust

that it gets it right. You'll trust it

to act on your behalf. It could like

maybe be aware of everything going on in

this room and it could like kind of not

just be on or off but like lightly get

our attention if it wants us to know

something or maybe more aggressively get

our attention. It could really be like

following what we're talking about here

and remind us both of things later. Um,

and current hardware just can't do that.

The current kind of computers we have, I

don't think are a fair, they don't honor

what the technology is not really

capable of. So, I want to make a totally

new kind of computer that isn't meant

for this world of AI helping you all the

time. I'm super excited about it.

>> You are?

>> Yeah.

>> Um,

I you guys this thing called agent that

you guys had showed me earlier. I can

take this out if I mention it. I wasn't

supposed to. It was pretty fascinating.

It was cool to see it.

>> It is. Yeah. This This is a new thing

that we just did. Um, but the idea that

an AI can not just answer questions for

you, but it can go actually do stuff on

your behalf as your agent. It can go do

research for you. It can go book

something for you. It can go buy

something for you. It can go like, you

know, change some things in the world

for you and think more and use tools.

Like

I think most people think of ChachiBT as

this app that you can ask anything, but

it'll become this thing that can do

anything and that'll change how you use

computers. It'll change how you do

things in your life, you know, if you

>> Yeah, I was watching the guy do it and

it was just kind of fascinating. He was

showing like one time he'd went to like

a website and bought something that he

needed. And then now moving forward, he

could just be like, "Hey, go to this and

make sure to get me these or go to uh go

here and see go to the restaurants I

like and see if there's any table

available for 7:00 p.m. tomorrow." And

it was able to book it and do

everything. It was like having a

secretary right there.

>> It totally when I first started using

it, I was like, it was one of those

moments where I could tell that, oh man,

doing this the oldfashioned way is going

to feel like the stone age so quickly. M

>> you know I'm going to like try to tell

people someday like

>> do you remember when if we wanted to do

something we actually had to go like

click around the internet and like you

know look for a table and then if we

wanted to move it we had to like call

the restaurant and that's going to be

unimaginable because of course you just

tell your AI to do those things for you.

>> Yeah. Yeah. You feel like you would

almost just tell it to go eat too you

know

>> that's the fun part.

>> Yeah. Oh yeah. That's

>> No one likes booking the table. Everyone

loves sitting there eating.

>> That's a good point. Huh. Yeah. Yeah. It

won't take away the fun part. That's the

thing I think you got to remember that

it won't take away the fun part.

>> You're going to do the things you want

to do. There's a lot of things in your

life you probably don't love doing. Like

booking an open table is maybe one of

them.

>> Yeah. And then you'll have like

oldfashioned be like I'll book it. You

know, you're like, "Dad, what do you

mean? Get off the phone or whatever.

Don't call him you freaking weirdo. Use

a freaking use your agent."

>> Totally.

>> Like I'll book it. Um there's there's

like a lot of like you know Zuckerberg

recently like kind of was poaching guys

around town, right? And I'll say it, you

don't have to say it. allegedly. I'm not

saying he did. He hired one of my

buddies. But what I'm saying is, um,

there's this hypothetical that he was

like kind of poaching guys around town.

Is that Did it Did that feel like a

mafioso move in the community? What was

that like out here on out here in the uh

tech trenches?

>> I mean,

you know, they want to get into the AI

game. I understand it. So, and if he's

going to do this, he needs to hire some

people. So, bring it. So, bring it.

>> So, bring it. Yeah.

[ __ ] yeah, dude. I'm gonna upload myself

into this plant in a second. Okay. No,

but no. Does it Do you kind of like the

competition? Is that fun?

>> It is to It's Yeah, compet Like winning

is fun. Yeah. And I expect to win.

>> And you got to love the compet. That's

part of it, right? It makes it fun.

>> I think what it would be like if we

didn't have competition and drama in the

world.

>> It would be so boring.

>> Could uh

>> actually, can I say one more thing about

that? the best improvement I made in my

life in my like personally in my life

and for my own happiness over the last

couple years. A lot of bad [ __ ] has

happened to us. To me, it's been like a

crazy intense experience. And I just

decided that I was going to like learn

to love the hard parts. I was like, you

know what? If I'm in this crazy moment,

if I'm in this like crazy thing, if I

like feel my emotions are high, I'm

going to like make myself learn to be

grateful for that, to love it, to find

enjoyment in the in the tension, in the

competition, whatever. And actually it

worked and it it kind of needed to work

cuz like so many things go wrong in any

given day. But I was like thinking about

you know someday I'll be like retired on

my ranch. I'll be sitting there watching

the plants grow and I'll be missing the

excitement and the drama and the anger

and the tension and the whatever. And so

I'm going to be like grateful for it and

like learn to have fun with it.

>> And now it like I cannot believe that

that mind shift mindset shift worked but

it did. And were there practices like in

a moment like say like a moment came up

like some of the early ones, right?

Because I agree with you that like

having some mindset like I used to hate

traveling like every week traveling for

work but then one day I was like dude

you have to travel for work.

>> Deal with it.

>> You may as well find you may as well

[ __ ] cuz for years you've been just and

right there suddenly it wasn't bad

anymore.

>> That happened for me too.

>> Was there like a just a practice or was

it just this verbal reminder like I'm

going to do this.

>> I just kept saying it to myself.

>> I was just like someday you'll miss

these moments. you may as well find a

way to like find the

happiness and kind of great gratitude

for them in the moment.

>> Yeah.

Um, a lot of these guys have bunkers.

Zucky has a bunky. I know that somewhere

out in Hawaii. People have bunkers. Do

you have a bunker?

>> I have like underground concrete heavy

reinforced basements, but I don't have

anything I would call

>> Hold on, hold on, hold on, dude. Look,

I'll let you I'll let you keep me on the

ropes in a lot of this conversation, but

I am going to call that out as a dang

bunker, dude. Sam, that's a bunker.

>> Wasn't there a basement in a bunker? A

one a place you could hide when it all

goes off or whatever.

>> I No. Yeah, I have been thinking I

should really do a good version of one

of those, but I don't I don't have like

a I don't have what I would call a

bunker, but it has been on my mind. Not

because of AI, but just because of like

people are dropping bombs in the world

again. And you know, like

>> That's a good point. That's a very good

point. Yeah. Basin right there. Part of

a house building typically used for

storage, laundry, extra living, space,

or utilities. And then bunker built for

protection. Often military or emergency

related myth meant to withstand

explosions.

>> We don't have that yet. Do you guys do

this just for me or do you use chatbt as

the fact check?

>> We did this just for you.

>> I appreciate it.

>> Um,

>> this is nice. If could we ever could we

ever have instead of so you start to see

say if AI comes over and there's this

whole new kind of like um you know I

believe that one of the things that's

been happening there's been like a lot

of like ICE raids and people getting

like taken out of their homes and um uh

you know um there's been a lot of

crackdown cuz part of me believes that

they're having to get everybody

documented or online basically because

they're going to start to have this p

like uh this like facial recognition

everywhere. Like I have this idea of

that. So yes, this stuff had to happen

because in in a year or year and a half

you wouldn't even be able to be outdoors

anywhere anywhere without a drone or

something noticing you or some camera

noticing that you're not supposed to be

there or you're not there with

documentation, right? Whatever people's

thoughts are on that. But just so part

of me starts to see like, oh, okay,

that's going on. Do you think we could

ever then down the line have new

countries like delineated by like almost

like a new AI landscape? Like remember

when on Snapchat if you were in a

certain realm you could put like a

filter on something and they almost

created these new like glo like geo

barriers and stuff. Do you think we

could potentially be looking at

something like that one day?

>> I I know that what you just said is

going to happen. I know that we're going

to have like cameras on, you know, all

over the place and it's going to make

the cities way safer because everybody

like if you commit a crime, they'll have

like a facial recognition hit on you

right away. But man, do I find that

dystopic? Like you do,

of course. Like I, you know, is it like

a good trade if it means like people

stop getting murdered in the streets?

Yeah, sure. We agree to like give up

some privacy for that. But it it sits so

uncomfortably with me, you know, in like

London or whatever. You see those

cameras on every street corner

and you're just like you get used to it

fast.

>> Yeah.

>> But you're just like it feels like

>> privacy is important and and like you

you really are like there's nothing I

can do to live in the world and avoid

all these cameras and maybe it's worth

it for society collectively but it it

it it feels like we really do give up a

lot to get it.

But could there one day you think if we

had that then we could have whole new

countries kind of that were

>> what do you mean by new countries in

this case?

>> Like say if there was this new kind of

this new like layer right of sur a

surveillance layer that's kind of in the

in the air

then could that be divided into

different realms? Oh yes, totally. That

can I think there's all kinds of weird

ways that that can happen. But but the

surveillance layer is so uncomfortable.

>> Oh yeah, it's going to be a nasty

blanket. Um is there anything else that

you wanted to talk about you wanted to

get out that you want me to ask you

about?

>> No, that was great.

>> Oh, why are there Why does Chad UBC have

that hyphen thing?

>> We we got to do something about that.

Um,

you know, we have this team that figures

out what the model's personality should

be like and how it should behave.

>> Mhm.

>> And a lot of users like M dashes, so we

added more m dashes. And now I think we

have too many M dashes. But that's the

answer is it was just like users liked

it, we put more in. Now it's like a

little bit of a meme and it's kind of

it's quite annoying to me. We should we

should fix that.

>> But you're thinking about it, too.

>> I think we'll get it fixed very soon.

>> Okay. Uh before you go, Sam, and thank

you so much for your time today. It's

been awesome. We appreciate it, man. Um,

it's helped me get to understand you, I

feel like, a lot. I think maybe

differently than I I don't know if I had

a perception. I didn't know what to

think.

>> What's the before and after?

>> Uh, the before was like a little bit

like um

I guess I almost thought kind of like

not as hopeful,

but I don't know why. Maybe that's just

my own I think it's attaching my own

perceptions of what I think about AI and

stuff or the possibilities of

technology, you know, like that kind of

stuff like that energy. I think I was

probably attaching it to you and now I

feel like like more whimsical about it

kind of like um or not whimsical but

like

>> let's see what can happen,

>> right? And so I think

>> I think it's not just let's see, it's

like let's try to make it good but let's

realize that you have to like you don't

get to see all the way down the road.

You kind of got to go one turn at a time

and you like light up a little bit more.

>> Yeah. Yeah. I think Yeah. I don't know.

I I just I'm really I'm really thankful

for you. Even let me tell you what I

thought what what what I was like

judging and then uh and then sharing

like kind of where I thought what I

thought now. Um in 20 years, what do you

hope your legacy will be?

>> I you're going to have one.

>> I mean, yeah. I guess I you certainly

don't

>> I don't think anyone sits around while

they're in like the middle of the game

thinking about, you know, what the

review is going to be after. At least I

don't. Um and

but this is a big review you'll have.

>> I have never been that motivated by like

what like I want to like play the game

the best I can. and I want to like, you

know, do the best work I can, have the

most fun, have like have the most

impact, do the most interesting stuff.

But then, you know, you retire and then

you die and then like life goes on and

people as they're supposed to go on with

life and forget about you and this whole

thing of like I'm going to live for how

I'm remembered after I die and my legacy

and like

you're dead, you know?

>> Do you have one of those deals where you

saving your heart with those people?

>> What do you mean?

>> Your brain, sorry, with the people over

there.

Cryionics. You have a Cryionic deal?

>> No, I uh

>> Have you been approached about it?

>> I have been approached by it. There was

like a

>> That's You haven't even [ __ ]

approached me. I haven't asked for

anything.

>> There was this like Y company or company

that I like helped out a long time ago

by like giving some small deposit to and

then like I never followed up on it so I

don't have anything in place.

>> Okay. But maybe a Yeah, maybe just a

down payment somewhere down there. If

things get weird, we'll we'll go knock

on their door. Um yeah, but thank you so

much, man. James Basher says hello. He's

a friend of mine. He's a great guy. And

uh and we just appreciate you so much,

Sam. Thanks for your time.

>> Thanks for thanks for doing this. I

really enjoyed it.

>> Thank you for your time today. I thought

it was very informative.

[Music]

>> And I feel like I must be corner stone.

[Music]

Oh, but when I reach that ground, I'll

share this piece of mind I found. I can

feel it in my bones.

But it's going to take