Selling 600+ Million Books, Success Principles, and More — Jack Canfield

I'm sitting there and all of a sudden

this chalkboard appears, green

chalkboard like in school and a hand

comes out and writes chicken soup and

script on it. And I said to the hand,

"What the hell does chicken soup have to

do with this book?" And a voice said

back, "When you were a kid, your

grandmother gave you chicken soup when

you were sick." And I thought, "But

there's another book on sick people."

And the voice answered back, "People's

spirits are sick. They're in

resignation, hopelessness, and fear." So

I went, "Chicken soup for the soul." and

I got goosebumps.

>> Told my wife she got goosebumps. Told

Mark, he got goosebumps. Called her

agent, he got goosebumps. Went to New

York, met with 21 publishers, seven a

day for three days. Nobody got

goosebumps.

Jack. Jack. Jack. It is so good to see

you.

>> Glad to see you, my friend.

>> And I'm so thrilled that you're here and

that we're seeing each other again.

>> Yeah, this is fun.

>> It has been a long time. And as I warned

you before we started recording, I said,

I really doubt people in my audience

have the full context or even partial

context. So I want to give them some of

the backstory because

one could make a compelling argument

that I owe my career as such to you

because you made the introduction to

Steven Hansman who became my book agent

at the time. He was a suppose former

superstar editor on his way to becoming

an agent. So we were both starting out

in a sense and you made that

introduction but there's even more

backstory that I have to share with

folks. That would have been 2005 2006. I

was around 27 28 at the time much

earlier. This would have been when I

just moved to Silicon Valley. I was

riding around in my mom's handme-down

POSOS minivan, which was broken in every

way imaginable, listening to Personal

Power 2 on cassette tape to and from my

job as I commuted on 101. I was eating

at Jack in the Box in the parking lot of

a Safeway a couple nights a week cuz

that's what I could afford. And I was

volunteering for a group called the

Silicon Valley Association of Startup

Entrepreneurs, which is a mouthful, but

SVC. And I had volunteered, which I

still recommend to folks because I knew

nobody. Nobody knew me. And I always

tried to do extra jobs as a volunteer.

And eventually they said, "Wow, this kid

really likes working for free. Let's

give him more responsibility. Hey, would

you like to organize some speakers for a

main event?" And I thought to myself,

"Absolutely. This is a great way for me

to meet some of my heroes. And I invited

Trip Hawkins of Electronic Arts. I

invited you because of the Phenom. Of

course, we'll talk about it, but Chicken

Soup for the Soul. I invited all sorts

of folks. And that was the first time

that we met. You graciously agreed to

come to that. And here we are, God knows

how many to almost 20 years, more than

20 years later, and I'm so happy to have

you on the podcast. So, thank you for

all of that. It's just it's these are

these sliding door moments where there's

no way I could play the alternative, but

the what if certainly looms large. What

if you hadn't said yes to come to that

event? What if I hadn't reached out and

said, "Jack, all these notes I have from

this lecture I've been giving to this

high tech entrepreneurship class, is

there anything here?" And frankly, I

hoped you would say no because I didn't

want to write a book. And you were like,

"Actually, I think there's something

here." here and before I could say

anything, you started making

introductions

and here we are. So, thank you for

everything, Jack. I really appreciate

it.

>> Let me just say, you're someone who

knows how to take advantage of an

opportunity. You've done really well.

>> You know, you got to take your shot when

you can take your shot.

>> That's right.

>> It's been one hell of a ride. So, I'm

thrilled to have you on and I was

looking through some of the materials

beforehand. We're going to run out of

time before we run out of topics.

But

ultimately we will rewind the clock and

go back to some of the beginning

chapters. But I have to ask because

there is a bullet here. The story behind

more than 300 million copies sold in

China. How does that happen?

>> Well, because I'm imagining Chicken Soup

does not have the same connotation over

there. So I I don't even know if the

title's the same.

>> Well, what happened is a company called

Oni Publishing and they decided to

publish the book. And what's interesting

is we had a contract that they would pay

us 10 cents for every book sold in

China. But on was half owned by the

government and half owned by private

equity. So they decided to make it a

textbook to teach English to kids in

high school with Chinese on one side,

English on the other. And they printed

millions and millions of books

>> because it was in the schools which was

the government side. We didn't see one

penny of millions of books sold.

So I learned how to write better

contracts in the future. But the fact is

a lot of Chinese people have had major

transformations because of the books

have taken off and they have sold them

in the general public as a result of

kids learning about them in school

showing it to their parents so on and so

forth. So it all works out all paid off.

But that was a major lesson for us. You

know you got to be really really careful

when you're when interacting with the

Chinese and making deals. They're very

very clever.

>> You gotta be you got to be careful.

There is an expression I'm not going to

say that everyone uses this, but in

Chinese, which is

which is if you can trick them, then you

should trick them. And not saying

everyone subscribes to that, but you got

to have your wits about you for sure.

>> Part of the reason I love doing this

podcast is it gives me a pretext for

doing a bunch of internet so on my

friends without seeming like a stalker

or a crazy person. and I really had no

understanding or grasp of your

childhood, your upbringing, anything

like that. Could you speak to a bit for

folks just

>> the basics of where you grew up, what

you learned or didn't learn from parents

or household, things of that type?

>> Well, I was born in 1944. My father was

in the Air Force. World War II was going

on. He trained bomber pilots, actually.

And uh so from the time I was born till

the time I was six we lived in three

different states with you know military

bases. I don't remember much of it at

all but when I was six we moved to West

Virginia which is where I mostly grew up

in Wheeling West Virginia steel town

coal mining all that kind of stuff. And

my father was an alcoholic and he got

violent when he was drunk. And my mother

decided to divorce him when I was six.

So we went to live with my grandmother

and I actually lived in the attic of her

house for years. And then eventually she

met my my stepfather who would just come

out of the Navy. I grew up poor, you

know, we were not wealthy at all. And so

my father was one of these people when I

went off to college, my stepfather, he

he said to me, he gave me $20. He looked

over me in the eye and he said, "Now

there's that." He says, "If you need a

helping hand, look at the end of your

own arm. There'll be no more gifts

coming from me."

Okay. So I learned early on, you know, I

I worked my way through high school. I

was a lifeguard of the country club

pool. So I was always I had this thing I

was in but not of. I was in the country

club meeting girls whose parents were

but I wasn't of that. And I went to a

private military school from the fifth

grade till I graduated high school. My

rich aunt had a son named Jack who died.

If I was you talk about kismmet and

fate. If my name was Bob, we'd not be

talking right now. But because I was

Jack,

>> she adopted me after his death and sent

me to a private school in town. So I got

a much better education than my brother

or anyone else. And but I again I was in

but I wasn't of I wasn't a doctor son. I

didn't you know the president of the guy

who owned the the Cadillac dealership.

That was not my my crowd yet. I got to

hang out with those kids and eventually

got into Harvard uh on a scholarship

play football. I was a football player.

I was honorable mention all state. I was

an end. All that kind of stuff. And I

grew up thinking you know you got to

work really really hard which I did. I

worked my way through Harvard. I cut

grass. I cleaned the dorms. I did all

got up and served food at 6:00 in the

morning and I fell asleep immediately in

French class.

I was so tired, you know. I remember one

day I'm totally asleep in this class at

9:00 in the morning and his professor

comes over and he shakes me awake and he

says, "You can leave now. The class is

over."

>> It's a very understanding comment from

the teacher.

>> I know. I know. Well, whatever. And then

I m I majored, this is interesting, I

majored in Chinese history, which is

interesting why later I learned that I

had past lives in China and Tibet. And

so it made sense to me. But at that time

it was this my freshman year I got all

C's and everything. Here I was a

student, high school, get to Harvard. I

always say I graduated in the half of

the class and made the top half

possible, you know. So there were a lot

of smart smart kids there,

valadictorians from their schools. And I

said to my counselor, I need I need an

easy A for my sophomore year. Says,

well, this guy, he used to be the

ambassador to China. He gives everyone

an A. Why don't you take his class? And

he knew Chongqai and Maadong, he had

slides of everything, you know, and I

got the A. But I fell in love with

Chinese history for some weird reason.

So that was my major. So I always tell

people, prepare me really well to do the

work I do. It had nothing to do with it.

My senior year, I took an elective

class. I said I need letter easy A and

someone said take Sockre 10. Sockreil

social relations 10. It's an encounter

group. You just sit in there and talk

about your feelings and everybody gets

an A. So I went over there and I took

the class and I fell in love with human

potential. Oh my god, there's this thing

called psychology and people and human

behavior and feelings and you know

motivation. So I said, "Well, how do I

get into that?" They said, "Well, it's a

little late. You would have to get into

psychology. You had to have studied as

an undergraduate and I hadn't." They

said, "Well, you could sneak into

psychology through education." So, I

went to the University of Chicago, got a

master's degree in education, taught in

an all black inner city high school for

two years and, you know, got teacher of

the year my first year and, you know,

became I went to Jesse Jackson's church.

I became friends with people in the jazz

community. Really got deeply I would say

probably for a year I I almost wished I

was black because I thought white people

are milk toast. And these black guys,

they got they got energy and the poetry

and the songs and the music and the

dancing and the anger and the fear and

all that. So then basically I started

realizing my students were not

motivated. They didn't believe they

could learn cuz they were black in the

inner city and they didn't have role

models. And that became my passion. How

do I motivate them to achieve? And I met

W. Clement Stone, my mentor. He was a

self-made. He was worth $600 million in

1968, which is when I was there.

>> That's wild.

>> His best friend was Napoleon Hill, who

wrote Think and Grow Rich. And together,

they wrote a book together. And then

also, he wrote a book called The Success

System that Never Failed. That's where I

learned about motivation and setting

goals and having vision and values and

working hard and using affirmations and

visualization, all of that.

>> Jack, could I pause you for a second

because there's so many different

avenues we can go down here. Sure.

>> I want to come back to W. Clement Stone

600 million just we'll come back to that

because that's a mind-boggling number

especially at for that point in time but

any time even now but if we back up for

a second teacher of the year first year

in Chicago what

made that possible what do you think

contributed to that

>> I think what happened was this school

probably 5 years earlier was all white

and Jewish and then there was this black

invasion they would call it into the

community and there was this white

flight out to the subb suburbs. So what

happened was a lot of the teachers

didn't really want to be there. They

wanted to go with the the kids who went.

So there was a certain kind of malaise

and almost an upset that they had and I

think a lot of them didn't treat the

kids very well.

>> And the other thing is nobody was

teaching African-American history. I was

teaching history and you know American

history and world history. And I I found

a book called Before the Mayflower and

it was by a guy named Ron Bennett and it

was a book about African-American

history which is a paperback. I think it

was like 3.95. I bought one for every

one of my students and I would teach

black history along with white history.

You know, history is always written by

the victors. So basically, white history

is our history.

>> And they didn't know any of this stuff.

The fact that I would do this and the

fact that I was loving and kind and

motivational and believe they could do

everything, it made them, I think, just

like me because I was on their side.

>> And then they started the

African-American club, African-American

studies club. They asked me if I'd be

their sponsor. I said yes. So that was

another thing. I ended up coaching the

swimming team because the guy who was

supposed to do it had majored in

basketball. He was a fizzed teacher. He

didn't know that much about swimming. I

had swam competitively in high school

and it was a waterfront instructor and

summer camps in Maine and teach kids to

swim and all that kind of stuff. And I

think the last part of that was that I

was starting to do these human potential

activities in my classes. You know, I

get them into pairs and have them do go

back and forth say I can't. Then I have

them go replace the the sentence with I

won't and which feels stronger, which

feels more true, which is, you know, and

they go, yeah, can't's really a victim

word. So I was doing maybe 10 minutes of

that every day along with teaching my

history.

>> And I think that's kind of why the big

moment for me, this is so cool. You

know, you have these little moments in

life where you get affirmation from

outside. So Sammy Davis Jr. was at

school. He was going to do a talk to the

kids. cuz he'd written a book called I

Can and he was there when I got the

award. They given me the award the same

day and I'm walking off stage and he

looked at me and he said, "You must be

really cool to have gotten that award

from those kids." And I I think I lived

on that for days.

>> I mean, that's a hell of a compliment

from a hell of a hell of a person and a

hell of an entertainer.

>> Yeah. And you're like 22 years old or

something, you know? It's a big deal.

>> Yeah. The right words at the right time.

I mean, just like you were probably

offering the right words at the right

time to a lot of those students.

>> So, if we flash forward to W. Clement

Stone, how did he make $600 million?

That's just I not to fixate on that, but

I mean that's a non-trivial sum of

money.

>> Three ways. Number one, he started a

insurance company called Combined

Insurance, and it was really low

premiums. In other words, the price you

paid for it.

>> And he believed everybody could afford

something. And he wanted to ensure the

people that often wouldn't be insured by

the big companies. And because of that,

and then he also hired people that were

not college graduates to be salespeople.

And then he had a training system. This

is so cool. Think about this. So here's

a training system. He'd tell them what

to do. You maybe a one day class. He

said, "Now we're going to go tomorrow

and I'm going to go in." He's teaching

these kids who never graduated college

to sell to CEOs of banks and companies.

It was intimidating for them.

>> He said, "We're going to go in. I'm

going to make a sale. at least a

presentation. You watch what I did. And

so goes in, they do this the

presentation. Either sold or didn't.

They go out for coffee afterwards. What

did you notice I did? You did this. You

did this. You did this. Okay, but you

missed that. Next time, watch that. They

go in, they do it again. Do that about

three or four times in the morning. And

the fourth time they're going in and he

just turns to the kid and he goes, "This

one's yours."

He just stepped back and a kid, maybe he

made it, maybe he blew it, but

afterwards he go out and say, "Okay, you

missed two things. We're going to go to

the next one. Watch me do those two

things." Next one, he go, "This is

yours." By the end of the day, they knew

how to sell.

>> That's incredible.

>> It was amazing. So, he had salespeople

all over the country selling these low

price insurance things. Second thing he

did, he was a genius when it came to

real estate. He invested in a lot of

real estate. The coolest thing he ever

did, if you go into Chicago on rails,

it's a big area where they, you know,

bring beef in and they were processing

beef all those days. And it's also a big

central distribution point for

everything. There's a place, it's just

huge wide, like six rails wide going

into the maiden station. And there was

no more real estate to buy. And so he

said to the guys who that own the

railroad land, he said, "Can I buy the

air rights over the railroad tracks?"

And they said, "Sure." So if you go to

that part of Chicago, there are all

these buildings over the tracks, which

he got a 100red-year lease on the air

rights, and they built these huge

skyscrapers, which he then got the

royalties for, the commissions for, the

rents for, whatever. So he was just very

creative. And the third thing he did, he

invested well in everything else as

well. So a lot of it was an investment

and then he also produced a success

magazine started by W. Clint

>> and he was a speaker he had books he

sold and the magazine Agmandino who

wrote the greatest salesman.

>> Mhm.

>> So I'm working in the Stone Foundation

at one point. So I quit teaching. I

worked for Stone.

>> Why did you quit teaching?

>> Because Stone offered me a job.

>> Okay.

>> Stone said, "We have this achievement

motivation program. and we're teaching

teachers to do it to go into the

schools. We don't have anyone that's

inner city experience. You do would you

come work for me? And it was like more

than I was making as a teacher. And I

went, "Yeah, okay." And it's him, right?

So working for him was amazing. He just

took everybody under his wing. Loved

them. Imagine you're young, you're 23

maybe, and he says to you, "Work in my

foundation. Go teach this stuff. If

there's any training you ever want to

take anywhere, it's on me. Go for it." I

took 37 weekend workshops that year.

>> You're the edge case. He has to budget

for.

>> Yeah. It was like a grant from the

government or something. So I took all

these workshops, you know, everything

from Carnegi to Gestalt therapy and body

work and meditation. And so he funded

all that which was great. But he really

was an amazing being that just I learned

so much by being in his presence. You

know, I'll tell you a story. So, I got

an intake interview first day. And he

says to me, "Do you take 100%

responsibility for your life?" And I

said, "Uh, I don't know." He said, "Is

he or no answer, son? Think."

I said, "Well, based on I don't even

understand it, probably no." He says,

"Do you do you ever blame anybody for

anything?" "Yeah." "Do you complain

about anything?" "Yeah." "Do you ever

make excuses why you didn't achieve

something?" "Yeah, you don't take 100%

responsibility." So he introduced me to

the whole concept of 100%

responsibility. And then he said to me,

"Do you watch television?" I said,

"Yeah." He said, "How many hours a day?"

I said, "I don't know. Good Morning

America, the news, maybe a movie at

night, you know, 11:00 or something like

that." Said, "That's three hours a day."

Says, "Cut out an hour a day." I said,

"Why?" He said, "Because that'll give

you 365 additional hours a year to be

productive. Divide that by a 40-hour

work week, that's 9 and a half weeks,

that'll give you a 14-month year. you'll

be much more competitive than all the

people in your field if you do that. So,

I did that. You know, he was teaching me

in the freaking interview like, you

know, so it was it was cool.

>> What were some of the things that really

stuck with you after you got the job?

Whether it was through osmosis, whether

it was through direct teaching, like why

did that job and that mentorship had the

impact that it did? Were there any other

examples or stories that come to mind?

He challenged me because I mean as an

educator I was probably making back then

30,000 a year if I was lucky. You know

that was like now people make a lot more

inflation.

>> But what happens is he said I want to

challenge you to make $100,000 a year.

>> And if you do it it's only because of

what I taught you. And he taught me to

set goals

to believe in them to visualize it as if

it's already happening. I have an

affirmation. I'm so happy and grateful.

I'm now whatever.

And I started doing that and I took the

goal of $100,000 seriously. And every

morning I'd wake up and I'd put a Oh, I

put $100,000 bill on the ceiling that I

didn't even know one existed at the

time. Banks actually trade them back and

forth. But I took a $100 bill. I

projected it with a remember overhead

projectors.

>> Sure.

>> I projected it onto a piece of flip

chart paper, traced it, added some extra

zeros, and then I put that on the

ceiling. Every morning I wake up, I see

that say my affirmation which went at

that time God is my instant supply and

large sums of money come to me quickly

and easily as I earn $100,000 a year.

And maybe a month or two into it, I'm in

the shower and I had a $100,000 idea cuz

I'd written a book called 100 ways to

enhance self-concept in the classroom.

And I used to get a quarter 25 cents for

every book that got sold. I said, "Wow,

sell 400,000 books I get $100,000." That

was my first $100,000 idea.

>> So, to make a long story short, because

I could do a half hour in that story, I

literally started to

sell more books. I started a bookstore,

literally a mail order bookstore where

you could buy my book and had one

product. And then my wife at the time

said, "You know, we're selling that

book." I know what happened. She had

ordered something in the mail. Have you

ever order something in the mail and it

comes and there's like five flyers for

other products they have in the in the

box?

>> Yeah, sure.

>> She had done that. She said, "Why don't

we sell other people's stuff?" So, we

added other product and I hired a high

school kid to come in after school and

to sell the books, you know, ship them

out and so forth. So, long story short,

I did not make $100,000. I made $92,328.

But I went like, "Okay, this is a

success."

>> Yeah. Then my wife says, "Do you think

it'll work for a million?" I said, '

Only one way to find out. So, literally,

we set a million-dollar goal, and that

happened with Chicken Soup the Soul.

This second year, I got four checks.

Tim, you know this because of your

success with the books. The first time

you get a check for a million dollars

for three months royalties, you go like,

are you kidding me?

It changed my life, you know?

>> Yeah. I mean, that's a juggernaut of a

success. But people probably don't

realize quite how much rejection went

into that. But maybe we could start at

the beginning in at least the Genesis

story. Where did Chicken Soup for the

Soul come from? I mean, people have seen

Everyone listening has seen this book at

some point. Chances are, unless they're

18 perhaps and have like never been into

a dentist's office or a physician's

office or an airport or fill in the

blank, right? I mean, it's ubiquitous.

How did it start?

>> I was going around doing workshops for

teachers on self-esteem, motivation,

that kind of thing. And I was always

telling stories just because I noticed

when I was a high school teacher, if I

was talking historical facts, kids were

looking out the window. If I was telling

a story about an escaped slave who

became an ambassador or my own story or

something from Jet Magazine or Ebony

magazine, the kids would pay attention.

So, stories capture us. and all the

great teachers, Buddha, Jesus, we know

they they told stories and parables and

so forth. So one day somebody said,

"That story you told about the Girl

Scout who sold 3,328 boxes of Girl Scout

cookies in one year, is that in a book

anywhere? My daughter needs to hear that

story." I went, "No." And over a course

of a two months, I must have had four

people a day say, "Is that story in a

book? Is that story in a book? That

story in a book." So I'm coming home on

a plane from Boston to LA where I was

living at the time. And I I said, "How

many stories do I really know?" So I

wrote down every story, the dog story,

the Girl Scout story, the puppy story,

the Mount Everest story, whatever. There

was 70 stories. So I said, "Okay, that's

a book." So I made an commitment that

every night I would write work on a

story and at the end of the week I would

have two stories. And if I did that for

a year, I'd have 101 stories, you know,

108 whatever. So I did that and when I

was about I don't know five six through

I had breakfast with Mark Victor Hansen

who became my co-author and we were

having breakfast in Beverly Hills at

this place all these human potential

leaders would come to this breakfast the

inside edge it was called and so Mark

said what are you working on I said I'm

writing this book and he said you should

let me finish it with you I went that's

like telling Stephen King you should be

co-author because he's five, six of the

way through the book. How do you justify

that? He says, "Well, some of the

stories you tell you stole from me."

I said, "Maybe three, Mark. Come on."

And he said, "But I'm a much better

salesperson than you. I'll be the

upfront voice person." I said, "Well,

give me 30 more stories and we'll talk."

I had 70 at that time. So, he said he

said, "Okay." Came back, he did it. So

basically it was a marriage made in

heaven cuz he really was good at getting

the word out. We were in a mall once if

you believe this Tim. We're in a mall

where these I think it was B. Dalton

bookstores. They were in a lot of the

malls.

>> Yeah, I remembered B. Dalton.

>> Yeah. And so we're doing a book signing

and there's nobody there. So Mark goes

out into the mall and he just starts

walking up and down the mall yelling,

"Are you guys crazy? There's a book

signing in Bon right now with these two

amazing authors about the best book in

the world. you all should be in there.

And so he's doing that and about 40

people came in to be Dalton and then

Mark walks up to the front of the room

where I am ready to do the little talk

before the signing. They all like

gasped, you know, like you're the guy

who was in the hall. You could do that.

I was too shy to do that. So

it worked out really well. But you know,

you talked about rejection. We were

turned down by 144 publishers once we

had a manuscript and took us over a year

to sell the book. You know, when I think

about that story and I think about, you

know, the 4-hour work week, which was

also turned down, Steve and I got front

row seats obviously to this by 37, 39

publishers, something like that.

Imprints within the publishers maybe,

tell me if this resonates or not, but

the reason like you can have a bad idea

that gets rejected, right? Just because

something gets rejected a lot doesn't

mean it's a good idea,

>> right?

>> But in this case, I had tested

everything in the classes. So, I knew

what worked. I knew that the material

stuck so to speak and you had been

testing these stories also in front of

audiences and people had been asking you

where can I read this in a book.

>> Yeah.

>> But was there anything else that

contributed to the perseverance to go

through that many rejections?

>> I think it's what you just said for us

too cuz we had tested these stories over

and over and told them. We got standing

ovations. Many of the stories in there

the first book were what often are

called in the speaking business your

signature story.

>> Mhm. that other people had let us use

with their signature stories. So, we

knew they were tearjerkers. They were

inspirational. They made you laugh. They

made you feel like you want to call up

and tell your mother, "I gotta read you

this story." So, basically, we knew

that, like you said, you knew that from

your experience. What I find in the book

world, especially in the New York

publishing world, is everybody wants

something that's a copy of something

that already worked.

>> Sure.

when you come along with something

radically new like your idea was and our

idea was. Up until then, no collections

of short stories had ever worked because

they were all fictional and they were

too short to like get engaged with the

characters and really like go, you know,

get involved. Whereas all these stories

were in categories like on love, on

overcoming obstacles, you know, grief

and so forth that are the human things

that everybody lives with, which this is

why they're so touched by it. and we

just knew to stick with it, you know,

and we would have self-published

eventually and I would have made a lot

more money, but I didn't really want to

be a publisher. I wanted to be a speaker

and a writer.

>> I'm going to read something here. You

can tell me if if this needs some

factchecking, but this is from Thrive

Global. This is a Q&A with you. So, here

we go. It's just a paragraph. Eventually

went to ABA, the American Book Sellers

Association, and went booth to booth for

two or three days. And on the final day,

this one new publisher employee said,

"We'll read the manuscript." Some people

wouldn't even take it. And they read it

in this case and loved it. And they said

they publish it. We said, "How many

books do you think you'll sell?" And

this is their response. "Oh, 20,000 if

you're lucky." And then your response, I

think this is you. Well, we want to sell

a million and a half in a year and a

half. I said, this employee laughed. And

then a year and a half later, we'd sold

1.3 million copies. to sell 1.3 or 1.5

million copies is so hard. I mean, it is

so hard to do unless you happen to be

very very lucky somehow in capturing

lightning in a bottle, but usually

there's a lot of elbow grease behind it.

So, two things. Well, actually it's

guess it's just really one thing. What

went into selling that many copies

over a year and a half? And were you

still using affirmations? Was that still

one of the ingredients in the cocktail?

>> Yeah. And then we were doing the mindset

work. I always say it's mindset, skill

set, and ready, set, go. The set, go. I

wanted another set. Uh it's take action.

It's action. So someone had told us that

the book, The Road Less Traveled, the

author of that book had done five

interviews a day for the first year.

Five interviews a day. Scott Peek. And

that book was on the New York Times list

for 12 years. 5 12 weeks.

>> Yeah. I think it's a record. I mean, you

you were really close, I think. Maybe

you still are. I don't know. But the

reality was I thought, well, if that's

what works, let's do it. So, Mark and I

actually had gone to five best-selling

authors and then read about Scott Peek

and we talked to John Gray who wrote

Menor from Mars. We talked to Ken

Blanchard who wrote the one minute

manager. We talked to Barbara D'Angelus

who wrote a book on love and then

another book on TM that someone had

written that was successful. And we

said, "What should we do?" And they all

said, "Do as many interviews as

possible. Get in front of everybody." I

know you did the the blogger thing,

which was brilliant. We did the radio

thing. Now it's I think podcasts are

better than radio. I always tell new

authors because the people listening to

them,

>> they're your audience. There's a focus.

Whereas radio, they have a bigger reach,

but not everybody's your audience.

>> But anyway, five a day, every day for a

year. So we we created what we call the

rule of five. It's a book by John Kramer

called How to Sell a Million Book,

something like that. It's a great book.

We bought the book and we took every

idea that was in that book and we made a

post-it, little 2x3 postit, put it on

the wall. And if you went down the wall

of our company at that time, Self-Esteem

seminars, it was just covered with

post-its. And every day we'd take

something off and either do it five

times or take five postit off and do

each one time. Call a church. Can we

talk in your church? Can we We call five

PXs in the military and we say, "Are you

carrying our book? Can I send you one?

If you like it, will you carry it? Call

bookstores. Are you stocking it? Can we

send you one? If you like it, will you

carry it? Call them back two weeks

later. Did you get it?" It was like

nonstop. We were giving talks at

churches on on, you know, Sunday

morning, Wednesday night, you know,

whatever. They ones that have

bookstores. We do signings. We signed in

the parking lot. I spoke at every damn

conference there was. I didn't care

where it was or how long it took to get

there if it was there. And we did radio

shows that were like at 2 in the

morning. Maybe a trucker driving through

Montana will hear it, but maybe he'll

like it. Maybe he'll buy it. Maybe he'll

tell his daughter and the daughter will

tell her friends. And so, literally, it

was that level of nonstop activity. And

it was interesting because we we were

pretty amped up in the beginning and we

talked to the psychic guy and he said it

would be as he was in trance. You go. It

would be as if you would go into a tree

with a very sharp axe and you would take

five swipes at that tree every single

day. Eventually, even a redwood would

have to come down. You know, we went,

"Okay, rule of five. That's what we're

going to do."

>> What prompted the trip to the psychic?

Do you remember?

>> Yeah, I do. We knew his wife

>> and she was a friend of ours and then he

kind of turned psychic, if you will. He

was doing these readings and they were

they were awesome. So, we just thought,

well, why not? Let's ask him what we

should do.

>> How old were you or what date was this?

Either one. Roughly when the first

Chicken Soup for the Soul came out.

>> 93. I was born at 44. So, what is that?

49 years old. Something like that. And

when it hit, right, when you sold the

1.3 million copies in a year and a half

or whatever it added up to be, how did

that change your life

>> dramatically? In what ways did that

affect your life?

>> Well, it allowed me to move out of a

very small house. It allowed me to get a

better car. All that kind of stuff. I

think more so it was an affirmation from

the world that the work I was passionate

about was needed.

And so it wasn't just the money, it was

the the the confirmation that my

intuition, that my passion was correct.

You know, you're probably familiar with

the concept of icky guy, which comes

from the Japanese where if you love to

do something, that's one thing. Are you

good at it? Does the world need it? And

are they willing to pay for it? So all

four of those have to come together for

this thing that you're passionate about

to actually work. In this case, it did.

So I thought, okay, my purpose is

needed. it's going to work. I can make a

living at it. So, that was a big

confirmation of that, I think, more than

anything. And yeah, I bought three

sweaters, you know, in different colors

and all that kind of stuff. I went

through my nevo reef stage for sure. If

the sweaters were the extent of the

neuvo ree, then I feel like you have

very good restraint. The title itself,

chicken soup for the soul, because that

ended up to be such an incredible format

also for extending that into a million

different verticals, right? Chicken soup

for the fill in the blank soul.

>> Yeah,

>> this I suppose is a nod to the intuition

or unorthodox approaches. But how did

that title come to be?

>> We had an agent who was going to take us

to New York and meet with publishers and

we didn't have a title. So Mark and I

said, "Well, we we're both meditators."

So we said, "Well, let's just meditate

and ask the universe, source, God,

whatever you want to call that energy

for a title." So Mark would go to bed,

Mark's really hyper. He'd go to bed

tanning mega bestselling title, mega

bestselling title, mega bestselling

title. I would just go and I would every

morning I'd sit for an hour and I'd say,

"Okay, God, give me a title." And

on Wednesday, two days, nothing

happened. Third day, I'm sitting there

and all of a sudden this chalkboard

appears, green chalkboard, like in

school, and a hand comes out and writes

chicken soup and script on it. And I

said to the hand, "What the hell does

chicken soup have to do with this book?"

And a voice said back, "When you were a

kid, your grandmother gave you a chicken

soup when you were sick." And I thought,

"But there's another book on sick

people." And the voice answered back,

"People's spirits are sick. They're in

resignation, hopelessness, and fear." We

were in the first big recession, 1993.

The Gulf War was going on. Downside, a

lot of things that are happening now

were happening then. The economy was

tanking and people were losing jobs. So,

timing was good in terms of people

needing inspiration. That played out

well. So I went chicken soup for the

spirit, chicken soup for the soul, and I

got goosebumps.

Told my wife, she got goosebumps. Told

Mark, called Mark, what do you think of

this? He got goosebumps. Called her

agent, he got goosebumps. Went to New

York, met with 21 publishers, seven a

day for three days. Nobody got

goosebumps.

So basically that led to the 144

rejections. And you're right, we went to

the American Book Setters Association

booth to booth. We had, we're both

wearing backpacks full of these

spiralbound like 20 stories from the

book, the best stories. Did you publish

this book? Will you be interested in

this book? You know, and most people

wouldn't even take one, let alone. And

then Peter Vzo, who's the guy who did

publish it, you know, and you're right.

He said 20,000. And we said no. And he

laughed. He laughed out loud at us. And

later he said, "Yeah, you know," he took

out an ad in New York on a billboard

thanking all the publishers that

rejected Chicken Soup for the Soul.

>> Was it laugh as in I don't believe her

or was he like, "That's some kutzbah."

>> No, he laughed cuz he thought we were

freaking crazy. He thought we were

>> insane.

>> You guys were nuts. You know what

happened was the first shipment he made

was 800 books to I think it was Barnes &

Noble, might have been Borders and they

sold 80 books the first week. He said

when you sell one/tenth of your

inventory the first week that's a

phenomenon. Next week 92 the next week

150. He said something was happening. It

just shocked him. And they reached a

point where literally they had they

started with those presses that do this

kind of thing, you know.

>> Mhm.

>> And now that then they had to go to a

rotary press like you see in the movies

when the newspaper's getting printed.

>> And they had three shifts just doing

nothing but printing chicken soup for

the soul.

>> Wow. And I remember one December the guy

who was in charge of the money, the CFO

of that company told his staff, I never

knew this till later, he said, "Don't

take any more orders for delivery in

December. I don't want any more revenue

for tax purposes this year.

>> And meanwhile, right, you're following

the rule of five. You're calling the

churches, you're speaking in on Sundays,

you're calling the PXs, you're doing all

of the things, right?

>> Were there any particular

>> breakthrough moments or interviews?

Looking back at these hundreds of things

that you tried, were there any that

really seemed to help the book break

through?

>> You know, as far as interviews go,

being on Good Morning America definitely

made a big difference. Being on Fox and

Friends, in other words, major national

TV shows, which didn't happen

immediately. You start out local and you

basically create some reels of you, you

know, someone that can talk and they'll

consider you if they're a producer on

the big shows. But those big shows, we'd

be on them and the sales would just

boom, you know. But the word of mouth

more than anything, I think, Tim, what

we noticed was we'd have these big sales

and then nothing would happen for a week

or two and then there'd be a big sales

and then nothing and it would take like

people a week or two to read the book.

They'd tell everybody the word of mouth

was crazy and it was like a chain

letter. It just kept going and going and

going and going. Geometric progressions.

I think the other thing that was really

big for us was a company called Skill

Path. They were doing sometimes you get

these marketing things that say, you

know, we're going to be doing a workshop

on AI and we're going to do it in

Davenport, Iowa on Monday and it will be

in the middle of Iowa on Tuesday and

we'll be there. So these people running

around doing seminars everywhere

>> in little towns that we would never get

on.

>> Is it like learning annex back in the

day? similar or different?

>> Well, the learning annex and I spoke at

those places as well. It's similar, but

but here's the value of this. What

happened is let's say you're a trainer

for this company. You're going to five

cities in Iowa in a week.

>> Mhm.

>> And you're going to teach the same

course and there's someone else teaching

how to communicate with your boss,

someone else teaching how to use Excel,

whatever. And what happens is that those

are places we never would have gone. And

in the back of the room, they were

selling our books. M

>> so we got a lot a lot of book sales in

places and then that word of mouth thing

would take over and it would just keep

exploding exploding exploding exploding

exploding

>> and what's fascinating is I had sent the

book to the guy who runs that company

and said you know would you sell this

book as part of your back of the room

because I knew they did back mostly

audio programs back then they were like

$60 for six cassettes and so he said

well I don't know there's no money in a

book you know and whatever so then he

was a Christian and he always led the

Wednesday night men's group or

something. He always like to start with

a Bible story. And he gets to the group

and he doesn't have a Bible story in his

mind. He opens up his briefcase. There's

a chicken soup book. He reads the story.

It makes him cry. He goes in, he reads

the story to his Bible group. They go,

"Can you read any more stories?" That

night he read seven stories from the

book to his Bible group. He went, "Maybe

I should reconsider."

So they did. I want to emphasize

something for folks and this is through

my own lens and bias of course but

part of how you can improve the

likelihood of word of mouth with a book

like that or any book really if you're

dealing with especially I think

non-fiction stories is practice it in

front of live audiences you just get

such valuable feedback it is not the

same speaking as someone who's done 800

plus podcast episodes. It's not the same

as virtual feedback. You like being able

to see faces, see when people are

getting distracted, see when they're

taking notes,

>> to hear what they ask you after you're

done teaching or presenting. It allows

you to refine your material so well. I

have thought actually I'm sitting here

in Austin, Texas right now and I've

there I have an idea for a short book,

which of course I've been trying to

write a short book for 20 years. cuz I

haven't yet succeeded. But I have this

idea for a short book and I've thought

about maybe reaching out to UT Austin

here to teach a class just to work on

the material and try to present it

because it worked so well for

particularly the first book. And for

people listening who might think well

times have changed now it's all about

Tik Tok and this and this and this. Yes,

certain things have changed but a lot is

still the same. So, I just wanted to

speak to the live audience piece of it

because I think it's so powerful.

>> Well, I never write what I haven't

spoken about a lot first for the exact

same reason you're talking about because

I get real feedback about what lands,

what doesn't land, where did I confuse,

where didn't I give them enough

information, where was I redundant, you

know, etc. And people now they get a

book and they instantly go to create an

online course which they haven't taught

live you know and least at least teach

it online live before you just record it

you know and put it online. So yeah it's

it's crazy what people don't do that

they should

>> to maybe just put a a bow on the chapter

of chicken soup for the soul. I mean,

you've got some crazy accolades related

to this, right? The Guinness Book World

Record with seven chicken soup books on

the New York Times bestseller list

simultaneously.

That was in 1999. There there are so

many bullet points that I could list off

that are just

completely nuts, right? When you think

back to somebody saying, "Hey, if you

sell 20,000 copies, you'd be lucky." And

then and then flashing forward to some

of these, you ended up selling the name,

the backlist, so 220 plus titles, all

future royalties, the trademarks, etc.

How did that happen? How did that come

to pass and why did why did that happen?

>> I think two things. We got kind of

burned out on the process. So when we

first started it, we were doing a book

or two a year and by the end we were

doing like eight or nine books a year

because the publisher wanted more

because everything has an arc, you know,

and so what happened was the success was

starting to dwindle. There was a little

saturation in the market perhaps. We're

niching books now. They don't where the

first books had universal appeal across

the board. When you start doing sports

fan soul or golfer soul, you know, you

start to limit the size of the audience.

And so we're doing all these books and

we kind of got tired and I kind of got

burned out at the level of not another

one man one armed guy climb on Everest

story or onelegged you know blank I mean

I should have been inspired and it was

like h

>> yeah right

>> not another my mother died and she loved

bluebirds and a bluebird landed on her

window sill so I knew it was my mom and

it probably was but after a while I'm

tired of hearing that you know I knew I

was getting a bit jaded you know like

>> yeah Is it not the thing? You know, and

also I think I was tired. So the guy who

was the CEO of our company at the time

kind of noticed all that and said,

"Would you like to sell it?" And I said,

"Well, for the right price, you know."

So we sold it for tens and tens and tens

and tens and tens and tens of millions

of dollars. So yeah, it was a it was a

good offer. Happened at the right time.

So that's how it happened. And while

let's just say in the as you're noticing

the saturation and the niching down and

when you're checking in with yourself,

you don't have a a full body yes, right?

You're like, "Oh my god, another blue

bluebird story. I just don't know if I

can do it." Were you doing things in

parallel that you then kept doing after

you sold things off? Because for a lot

of people that could become their

identity and once they sell it, they're

like, "Oh my god, what do I do now?" And

they have this void that could be really

terrifying.

>> Yeah.

>> And I'm just wondering how you thought

about

>> what you did after that and if you

already had something in the hopper or

if

>> there was another plan.

>> During that whole time, I was running

seminars like three, four, five, 600

people seminars. Sometimes 700, 800

people in a room. I did one seminar in

India that had 7,000 herbal life people

in it for three days only. They only

spoke Tamil. The whole thing was

translated, you know. And so I had that

going. That was always happening.

>> And the chicken soup was kind of like it

was a parallel track to my workshops and

my seminars. And so basically, yeah,

that was always there. So I knew I could

go back to that and not go back to that,

but just shift my energy over to that.

And I did. And that's when that's when

Patty, my my business partner, said,

"You really should consider putting all

these success ideas into a book." And

that's what led to the success

principles, which is the second kind of

chapter of my life, if you will, in

terms of that being, but I was always

teaching success ever since W. Clement

Stone wasn't like I was like, "Oh, I'm

gonna quit being a corporate person and

I have no other idea what I'm going to

do, which is

>> I can't see how it would be scary." And

I have a first edition copy of the

success principles, how to get from

where you are to where you want to be.

Because before the four I think the when

when was the pub date on the success

principles?

>> 2005.

>> 2005. Right. So it came out two years

before the 4-hour work week. And I think

I have a brief cameo in there probably

because of the kickboxing stuff.

>> Yeah.

>> Or something else.

>> I tell that story. Yeah.

>> Yeah. So, I have a signed copy

at home at my parents house. Actually, I

keep it right where I can see it. So,

I've had that ever since. And what was

it like stepping into the success

principles? Were you nervous about that

because the bar had been set so high

with Chicken Soup for the Soul? Were you

able to let go of that? What was that

experience like?

>> Well, there is a little bit of an

identity thing. I became known as the

Chicken Soup guy, you know, and I had to

like let go of that. I Some people still

see me that way, which is fine. Mhm.

>> But no, I think for me it was a very

natural transition. It was a book. I

knew how to sell books. People would

say, "How long did it take you to write

that book?" I'd say 20 years because I

was collecting all that all that data

about what works in terms of success,

you know. And the actual writing took

about a year and a half. I would write

from about 7 at night. Sometimes I'd all

of a sudden I'd hear birds singing and

it would be getting gray. Oh my god,

I've been up all night typing. know

>> it's that bluebird again. I'm kidding.

>> Well, I had a regular job, you know,

which was to run my seminars.

Fortunately, most of them were on

weekends and evenings, but basically I

would go to bed at 7:00 in the morning

and sleep till noon, 1:00, then get up

and do my business again and then write.

So, thank God my wife could put up with

all that, but she did and it worked out

really well. But yeah, it was not that

hard. And I like writing. I like word

smithing. I'll give you an example. So,

I have a chapter in there about the guy

who wrote Sleepless in Seattle, the

movie. And the next chapter is about a

guy who is a coffee roaster. It's all

about perseverance and not giving up.

And he's up in Seattle and he's

roasting. He's sleeping on these coffee

bean bags cuz he couldn't afford an

apartment. Now he's Uber rich, you know.

But what happened was one of his major

clients was a coffee shop down in Long

Beach, California. And he would ship the

beans through UPS and UPS had a strike

and I was able to go, "Wow, blah blah

blah." I was writing Sleepless in

Seattle. In Seattle, this guy was also

sleepless, you know. I love that being

able to make those kind of segways and

stuff, you know.

>> Yeah.

>> And then his chapter is called Going the

Extra Mile. And basically I said he when

the strike happened he said I can't let

this guy flounder and not have the beans

he needs and he drove them himself

1,250 mi from Seattle to Long Beach. I

said he was willing to go more than one

extra mile. He went 1,250.

Playing with words like that is really

fun for me. Yeah.

>> What was the reason for continuing to do

the seminars? because you're presumably

you'd done very well financially from as

you mentioned some of the royalties from

Chicken Soup for the Soul. Was there

something you got personally from doing

the seminars? Was it kind of an

insurance policy of sorts to have an

additional revenue stream? Like why did

you keep doing so many in-person events?

>> I love doing it. I know you participated

in a lot of sports and you got really

good at them fast because of the way you

play. But whatever your favorite sport

is, you play it because you love it when

you're playing it, you know. Yeah. And

>> for me,

>> nothing turns me on more than being up

in front of a group sharing ideas and

stories and experiential exercises where

people interacting and watching their

lights come on, their eyes get bright,

their awarenesses happen, the

breakthroughs happen, you know, all of a

sudden they're coming up and they say,

"Oh my god," you know, and then watching

them name their children after me and

write their first book and, you know,

leave shitty marriages and stop being,

you know, letting their husbands abuse

them and that just I love it. I'm kind

of sort of retiring right now.

>> Mhm.

>> And literally that was the hardest part

of that decision was like so I had to

get my wife to agree that I could do x

number of workshops a year

and other people are doing all the work.

I'm not renting hotels and filling them

and doing all that kind of crap I used

to do. I used to have 12 staff. Now I

have two, you know.

>> What is your age now, Jack?

>> 81.

>> All right. You are sharp as a razor's

edge. And I just I I have to ask two

questions. Number one, what what do you

think contributes to that? Maybe you

just you also have some fantastic

genetics. I don't know. But you're very

very sharp. You have a lot of energy.

And then the related question is, and

I'm not questioning the decision, but

why retire? Why change what you're

doing?

>> I realized there were things I want to

do that I haven't done. I want to become

a really good chef cook.

>> I want to learn how to oil paint. I play

the guitar mediocrely. I want to learn

to play the piano. All these kind of

hobby things that most people do as they

go along in life.

>> I've kind of pouted them up at the end.

>> I have a 12-year-old grandson who I

absolutely adore who's the coolest damn

kid. He's he's an old soul kind of kid

and amazingly talented. I want to spend

more time with him. I want to spend more

time with my wife. I think I owe her

that after all the time she's put up

with me being on the road. and I enjoy

being with her and I want to just

explore things because they're fun, not

because I need to.

>> And so I want to read a book because it

interests me, not because I'm getting

ready to write something or I'm getting

ready to, you know, whatever. It's

funny, I never thought I would retire. I

told everyone for years I would never

retire. And then I was doing an Iwasa

experience done in Costa Rica and I

literally I'll tell the story real

quick. So

>> yeah, please. The intention that we were

to hold that night was forgive the

unforgivable. And I thought, I've

forgiven my parents. I've forgiven

people who embezzled from me. I've

forgiven people who stole from me. I've

forgiven the guy who bullied me in

school. Forgiven both my ex-wives, their

lawyers. You know, I've forgiven

everybody. What What's left to forgive?

But I'll do it. I take the medicine. I'm

lying there on my mattress and all of a

sudden Vladimir Putin's face comes up. I

thought, "Oh god,

I got to forgive Vladimir Putin, who I

think is one of the more evil guys on

the planet." So, I literally started to

see his childhood. I saw what motivated

him. He wants to be seen as majorly

significant, that he did something

outrageously huge, like put the Soviet

Union back together.

>> How does he do that? You start bringing

all these countries back that they gave

away like the Ukraine and Poland and all

those places. So I finally forgave him

and I I felt this energy just like leave

my body. I didn't know I had such the

animosity toward him. And then the next

thing I see is my door to my office and

the office opens and the first three ft

of my office is like a shrine to how

significant I am. It's like

>> the Guinness Book, World Record,

magazine covers, awards, honorary

doctorates, people that made me honorary

sheriff of this town. I've got more damn

stuff, you know? And I realized, oh my

god, part of my motivation has been to

feel like I did I was worthy of being

here, you know? I made a difference. I'm

significant. Now the huge philanthropic

loving serviceoriented heart in my body.

But I realized like how many honorary

doctors do you need? I'm doctor doctor

campfield. You know it's like I would go

away for 4 days on a trip to give a

commencement speech to get another

doctorate and I leave my wife and my

kids. You know it was crazy. And so I

had that awareness and I thought you

know I really need to slow down and take

a look at all that motivation. And part

of it being 81 was my 80th birthday last

summer, 81st birthday in August. I just

realized, you know, there's a lot I want

to do that I'm not doing. And I'm going

to just shove all this work stuff to the

side. Not totally. I've got four books

I'm still writing, so I'm not retired.

Retired.

>> The road warrior, you know, the three

weeks in the Asia.

>> Yeah. The road warrior, the travel.

>> Yeah. All that. I'm not doing that

anymore.

>> I love how four books is the retirement

plan, you know.

So that's Jack's version of lazy. I'm

going to come back to that in a second,

but before we get to that, what do you

think has contributed to you being as

vibrant, full of energy,

>> right,

>> and as sharp as as you are?

>> I think several things. Passionate about

what I do. In other words, I follow my

joy, follow my passion, you know, so

there's not not a lot of resistance

between what was coming through and what

I want to do.

I can't say I'm fearless totally, but

I'm I very few fears in my life anymore.

Just, you know, if I want to do it,

we'll do it. That inner struggle is

mostly gone. That uses up a lot of

energy and causes disease in the body. I

don't have a lot of limiting beliefs

anymore. One of the books I'm writing is

about a belief change process that I've

co-developed with somebody that

literally works. So, I've cleared just

tons of that stuff. I'm a big fan of

Byron Katy. Do you know her work? Yeah,

her work is amazing. People can find

PDFs online also of the work which are

super helpful. The turnarounds and so

on.

>> I did that work for years. I've not ever

been with her, but I did her work and

just, you know, I don't get upset about

anything. It just is what it is. You

know, that whole idea, it is what it is.

I can my desire to change it can also be

what it is, but it's not out of anger or

out of upset or it shouldn't be that

way. It's all just called, you know,

whatever. So, that is a big piece of it.

I meditate regularly. I cleanse. I told

you before we came on that I'm in the

eighth day of a 10day cleanse. So, you

know, all this stuff coming out of my

body, detoxing. I do saunas regularly. I

I won't say I'm exercise every single

day cuz that'd be a lie, but I exercise

enough to keep things moving. I only

listen to comedy channels on my XM

radio. I laugh a lot.

>> I think laughter is very healing. I love

your digital detox concept, which I

actually put in the 10th anniversary

edition of the success principles.

>> Amazing. I think I didn't know that.

>> Yeah, I have to send you a copy. Can't

believe I didn't do that. But anyway, so

I think that organic food when I was in

graduate school at UMass in Ammerst,

probably it was 23, four, something like

that. My best friend, we played raetball

every night. He was the owner of a

health food store. So I got into the

organic thing, the supplement thing, the

the cleansing thing, all of that really,

really early on. And then doing the

Iawaska, the plant medicine. Anything

that's not clear comes up and out. So

that's all good. And I'm very loving. I

get massages regularly.

All the things people tell you to do,

I'm mostly doing, you know, for

longevity for me.

>> It's a good list. I'm taking some notes

for myself. I need to add add a few more

in the rotation. So you mentioned the

Iwasa. So let's talk about that. I was

surprised. Not because I would expect

anything

otherwise, but I wasn't aware that you

had these experiences. Is that something

that goes back many decades or is there

something that prompted you to engage

with plant medicine?

>> No, it it doesn't go back many decades.

I mean, I did not smoke pot in high

school and college. It made me fall

asleep. So, my drug of choice on

weekends was a couple beers or, you

know, bakatonic or whatever. And uh

that's another thing I stopped drinking

quite a bit ago. But the reality was I

think I in graduate school, this is so

funny because the guy who eventually

became the head of drug education for

New Hampshire is a person who introduced

me to masculine and peyote and things

like that, but I only did a few

journeys. Never I did LSD once, I think.

Never did cocaine. I was afraid of all

that. I didn't want to get addicted and

I seen people who had

so none of that for years and years and

years and years. And then Lynn Twist who

runs the Patchimom Alliance was taking

people down to the rainforest in Ecuador

to help raise consciousness about let's

save the rainforest. And I went on one

of those trips and one night one of the

journeys, one of the things you do is

take Iawaska in the jungle with a real

shaman that's there. And I did that and

I had an amazing breakthrough

experiences and so I became interested

in it.

>> How old were you when when uh you had

that first experience, would you say?

>> I'm thinking 20 years ago maybe with

Lynn. Yeah, something like that. And

then when I learned about Rhythmia, I

thought, well, I want to do that. And

the thing I like about Rhythmia, for

those who don't know, it's a center in

Costa Rica. It was founded by a guy who

was, in his own words, a total [ __ ]

He was a womanizer, a drug addict, a

drinker, got the fights in bars all the

time. And so eventually, he was going to

commit suicide because he couldn't get

his life together. He'd been in and out

of rehab so many times. And he was worth

about $60 million, I think. But he was

miserable. So he said he was going to

commit suicide. Somebody said, "Don't

commit suicide till you go to the

rainforest and work with this guy named

Muganda." So he looks him up and looks

like a resort. And he signs up to go

there and gets down there and the whole

thing was a I mean the resort images

were [ __ ] It was an old house,

dirty mattresses, cockroaches, you know,

all this stuff.

>> Hotel paradise. Yeah.

>> And it was funny cuz when he got there,

he tells this story. He got there and he

flies down, you know, private jet, that

whole thing. He gets there and Mand

meets him at the airport. He says, "Get

my bags, man." Mana is this African guy

and he says, "Look at your own, man. I

don't carry your bags."

He was just used to being treated like a

king, right? So they get to this place

that doesn't look anything like the

brochure. And he's about to leave and he

says, "Come on, man. Lie down." He gets

in there about eight people lying

headtohead in the middle of a circle in

the garage on mattresses. They do

eyeball game, which is an African thing.

>> Hell of a introduction. Yeah.

>> Yeah. But it it totally rocked his world

because what happened was he ended up

going back to his grandfather and he

realized his grandfather had been

sexually violating him his whole youth

and he had totally repressed all that.

That's why he was so angry was he was

repressing. And then finally, I love

this last line. He's lying there and

Muganda just taps him on the head and

goes, "Happy birthday, man. You were

reborn."

And he was. And so he decided what he

wanted to do was help people have his

experience. And the second time he did

said, "You're supposed to open a center,

but don't do it with I do with Iawaska."

So he started that center. So I've been

down there five times. Do four journeys

every time you're there. of 20 journeys

and they've been life-changing for me.

Just literally life-changing. I think

that's another reason I'm so light and

just, you know, it's all good.

>> Yeah. The pharmacology of Iawaska in and

of itself super super fascinating for

people who might be interested. also

outside of the the DMT which is found in

the chakruna this the leaves of this

shrub actually related to the you know

the coffee plant but the actual vine

itself contains a lot of interesting

properties and there's I think it's

ESPD50

the psych ethnobotanical search for

psychoactive drugs there's a compendium

there's a presentation from that that

goes into the some of the potential

properties around neurogenesis and so

from the beta carb blades and so on

themselves in the vine. So even the vine

has some very very interesting

properties. What have you observed as

someone who's been a practitioner, a

student, a teacher in for lack of a

better term self-development space for

many decades now? What do you think is

often missed or undertaught

that I mean you've seen lots of

different waves of different things that

have become popular, fallen out of

popularity. Is there anything you wish

folks paid more attention to?

>> I think several things come to mind. I

don't think about that very often, but

several things come to mind as you ask

the question. Number one, I think most

people don't understand the impact of

unconscious limiting beliefs. They watch

the secret, they visualize, they affirm,

and then somehow it's not working. They

don't know why. And so it's it's always

like either fear or limiting beliefs or

just lack of willingness to take action.

you know that that basically corrupts

the process. And I think for me why I'm

writing a book about this limiting

belief process is I've just worked with

literally thousands of people because I

twice a year I've been doing these free

sessions where I'll get like 700 people

sign up and I'll do this belief process

with them and I'd say 99% of the people

have a major breakthrough. You know, I

had a woman got rid of arthritis in like

20 minutes. You know, I mean, ridiculous

stuff. And so these beliefs we're

holding on to that usually got formed

between the age of 3 and 8, somewhere in

that range because of some experience we

had, usually a traumatic experience. You

make a decision that's never going to

happen again. It's not safe to say what

I want. It's not safe to ask for things.

It's not safe to be sexy, make noise,

whatever. What happens is that we don't

realize we have that belief. And so we

do all the things we're supposed to do

and it doesn't happen. And it's very

frustrating. And sometimes people give

up on the whole human potential movement

because they're doing all these things

that the gurus are teaching them, but

they're not dealing with this block.

It's kind of like I'll tell people it's

like calling up Domino's Pizza to order

a pizza and then having this other voice

call them and say, "Forget the order."

Then you wonder why isn't it showing up?

you know and so all this work that that

so many of us taught in the secret and

so forth that seems to be a missing

piece for a lot of people I would say

and fear which is based on limiting

beliefs is my experience which we

imagine bad things happening in the

future it's a it's a visualization

process usually or a thought process

which we can intervene on as well but I

think those are the two big things that

people don't understand very well and

then I think what we're seeing today

that I'm more aware is the power of

community, the power of support, the

power of not being alone, that there are

people there to hold you back in line

when you go off. You know, my sister

just called a couple hours ago and was

having a really tough time and just

spending 10 minutes with her, she was

back where she needed to be. But if she

didn't have anyone to call, which is

increasingly true for her as she gets

older and doesn't have a lot of friends

who've died and so forth,

I think that's really critical. And I

think more and more people are becoming

aware of that. It's why you're seeing

all these communities evolving.

>> Mhm.

>> And I think one of the reasons that

plant medicine's taken off is because it

deals with all those limiting beliefs.

They come up and as we say arhythmia,

what's coming up is coming out. So don't

resist it. And you know,

>> yeah, that's a good one. You get to

clear it.

>> I want to come back to something that we

spoke about or you spoke about early on

with W. Clement Stone in his his intake

interview when he asked you, do you take

100% responsibility for your life?

>> And the reason I want to revisit that is

that I grew up in a family where there

was a lot of complaining. There was a

lot of fingerpointing, a lot of blaming.

and the villain would change depending

on the context. And I've I've worked

very hard to

try to correct that training for myself.

And

most of the time I would say I do pretty

well, but there are certainly times when

I seem to revert back to that early

experience and find myself complaining

about maybe I don't complain, but I

blame. Right? Maybe it's just

internally. Maybe I don't give voice to

it, but there could be some blaming.

How do you encourage people to take more

or 100% responsibility? What are the

steps for people who recognize that's

what they want to do but perhaps have

the habits of blaming, pointing fingers,

complaining?

>> Well, I'll start with a story couple

therapist told me once. She was working

with a couple and they were arguing

about whose fault it was that something

had happened. And a therapist said,

"Well, I'm glad to see you agree on

something." And he said, "What?"

>> Well, you obviously agree that if you

can figure out whose fault it is,

somehow that's going to make your life

better.

>> That's really That's outstanding. Yeah.

>> So, basically, I teach a little formula

equation if you call it like E plus R

equals O. Event plus response equals

outcome. So when there's an event and

you blame somebody or something, the

government, the bank, the economy, your

mother, your sister, your neighbor, the

boss, whatever you're blaming for this

experience you've just had.

That event plus your blaming does not

produce a better outcome. So we all want

a better outcome. We want to experience

joy freedom peace love success

abundance, you know, whatever the

outcome that we want, health, longevity,

whatever. And certain behaviors do not

do that. So, I've never found a place

where blaming produced a better result.

You don't feel better.

>> No.

>> And you don't solve the problem in a way

that really gets you anywhere because

you've just blamed somebody. And it's

amazing how much our culture supports

blaming and complaining. I used to call

bars ain't it awful clubs. You know,

every profession has their own bar they

go to. The firemen go here, the police

go there, the lawyers go there, the

doctors go there, and they [ __ ] and

moan about everything that happened that

day. Like, you know, the the economy,

the president, the minister of the

hospital, whatever. So, the reality is

it lets off steam and you get agreement,

but you don't get resolution. You don't

get breakthrough. You don't get better

results. So if you look at E plus R

equals O, there's only three responses

you have any control over. Your

thoughts, your images, and your

behavior. That's it. You can't manage

time. You can manage your thoughts in

relation to time. You can manage your

visualizations in relation to time and

your behavior. We think we can control

things outside of us. We can only

control our response to things outside

of us and notice what kind of outcome

that produces. And what you've done

magnificently and what I've done a lot

as well is look at who are the people

that are succeeding. What are their

responses to certain events? How do they

relate to this situation? Which ones

produced the better results? I mean,

you've been your book, The Titans book,

is just amazing. All these people

telling you what worked.

>> Thank you.

>> If you haven't read that, by the way,

guys, please do. It's incredible. So,

what happens is blaming. We just

discovered we talked about it. And it's

incredible what people blame. I mean,

look at our president right now. He's

blaming everybody for everything. You

know, it's just it's unfortunate. But he

does, but it's not producing

particularly great results as a result

of it. Complaining. In order to

complain, you have to have a reference

point of something better you prefer.

So, I can't complain about my girlfriend

if I don't have an image of some woman

who's better than my girlfriend.

>> Right now, the reality is that nobody

ever complains about gravity,

>> right? You've never seen an old person

walking through the mall all bent over

going, "Gravity. I hate gravity. Wasn't

for gravity, I would be all bent over.

Gravity sucks." You know, never seen

that. Why not? Because you can't change

gravity. Everyone knows gravity just is.

So we don't complain about it. So

anything you're complaining about, you

have to have a reference point in your

mind of something better. Better job,

better country, better president, better

whatever. And what happens then is we

when we become aware of that

we have this better option that we're

not willing to risk creating. So

therefore we complain about it. It lets

off steam. It gets people to go

together. Yeah, I know my wife's the

same way. You know, whatever it is, but

we don't get a better result. So, you

know, I always say imagine a situation

where every woman in the world dies

except my wife. big big big thing comes

down from outer space zaps the earth

with some energy field my wife happens

to be in a lead mine that day she's the

only one who survived would I come to

work and complain about my wife no why

not it's the only one there is no option

right so we wouldn't complain about it

right so basically if you're complaining

then my response to that is what would

you prefer what would you have to do to

create that

>> you know one of my friends runs a a

workshop he was over in in Europe. He's

a European corporate consultant. And one

of the questions he asks people even

when they're pissed off at the company

they work for, he says, "On a scale of 1

to 10, how would you rate your quality

of life working here?" And they go,

"Three." He go, "Why so high?

It's not a zero. Something's going on

there, right? So why so high?" Which

floors them to kind of breaks the chain

of their thought. And then he goes, "So

what would be an eight for you?" Never

goes to 10 cuz that's too big a leap for

people. What would be an aid for you?

Well, this would be happening. This

would be happening. What could you do to

help generate that result? What could

you do to help make that happen in your

company? Because that's really what you

have to do. You can't just sit there and

[ __ ] and moan. Nothing's going to

change.

>> Yeah. You mentioned Tools of Titans, and

I I wanted to just not to push the book,

but it brought to mind because I put

together these books mostly as reference

books for myself. And Tools of Titans

particular was an example of not wanting

to let learnings from these interviews

fall through my fingers like sand

through an hourglass.

>> And one of the essays in that book is

taken from Joo Willink, who's a famous

Navy Seal commander. He's done a million

things since. His first public interview

ever was on this podcast ages ago. He

has this People can find videos of this

too, but it's just called good. And so

if you'll indulge me for a second, I

just want to read a second.

>> Sure.

>> Just a minute or two of this. So this

good, this is the title. And Jaco has a

great video of this for people who want,

but it's also in the book. So good. This

is something that one of my direct

subordinates, one of the guys who worked

for me, a guy who became one of my best

friends, pointed out. He would pull me

aside with some major problem or issue.

This is when Jaco was in the military

that was going on. And he'd say, "Boss,

we've got this thing, this situation.

It's going terribly wrong." I would look

at him and say, "Good." And finally one

day he was telling me about something

that was going off the rails. And as

soon as he finished explaining to me, he

said, 'I already know what you're going

to say. And I asked,"What am I going to

say?" He said, 'You going to say good.'

He continued, "That's what you always

say. When something is going wrong or

going bad, you look at me and say,

"Good." And I said, "Well, I mean it

because that's how I operate." So I

explained to him that when things are

going badly, there's going to be some

good that will come for it. Oh, the

mission got cancelceled. Good. We can

focus on another one. Didn't get the new

high-speed gear we wanted? Good. We can

keep it simple. Didn't get promoted?

Good. More time to get better. Didn't

get funded. Good. We own more of the

company. Didn't get the job you wanted?

Good. Go out, gain more experience, and

build a better resume. Got injured?

Good. Need a break from training? It

just goes on and on and on. And then he

says, just to maybe put a pin in it. He

says, "Now, I don't mean to say

something trit. I'm not saying to sound

like Mr. Smiley, positive guy. That guy

ignores the hard truth. That guy thinks

a positive attitude will solve problems.

It won't, but neither will dwelling on

the problem. No. Accept reality, but

focus on the solution. Take that issue,

take that setback, take that problem,

and turn it into something good. Go

forward." And if you're part of a team,

that attitude will spread throughout.

And I feel like

you reflect that. And certainly Jaco is

sort of an archetype of of many types.

And it's also, for me at least, makes it

clear that it's it's something you train

yourself to do, right? But if it doesn't

come naturally all the time, just like

an exercise habit or anything else, like

this is something that you have to

condition yourself to do with reminders

and practices. Are there any reminders

or practices that you have for yourself

to stay on the rails, so to speak, with

the the 100% responsibility?

>> Yeah, I guess so. I've always got

something I'm working on, and you have

to have like something that keeps it in

your focus, you know? Mhm.

>> So if I'm engaging in some kind of

negative selft talk then I take and I

create an opposite affirmation. I'll put

that on some postits and put on the

refrigerator door and on my bathroom

mirror and stuff like that because we

know it normally you probably have other

data than than I do on this but

neuroscience tends to tell us that it

takes about 66 days to change a belief

and it could take longer depending on

who it is and how badly that belief is

ground into you through the trauma of

its creation. But generally it requires

repetition. There's a guy, I forget his

name right now. He's a he's a head of

peak performance at West Point. He wrote

a book about it. And one of the things

when I read the book that he does is

when the students are wanting a

behavioral change, they create an

affirmation and he teaches them every

time you walk through a door, reach up

and touch the door jamb and then say

your affirmation. Now I have a

repetitive system that's built in that

tells me to do that. They think about

how many doors you go in and out of

every day. Into the bathroom, into the

kitchen, out of the kitchen, into your

car, back out of, you know, whatever.

And so, it's that level of repetition

until it becomes ground in. They don't

have to repeat it.

>> I mean, I know my phone number. I don't

have to repeat it. Well, I did when I

first got it, you know,

>> and you want to get your new ideas like

that. I always say if you can build in

four new behavioral shifts a year, think

about in 10 years, you got 40 new

shifts. That's a lot. Mhm.

>> For example, when we read the the what's

the book? U shaman

from Mexico.

>> It's Carlos Castanito.

>> No, different one.

>> Different sha from Mexico.

>> Yeah, this is me being sharp and he

went.

>> Anyway, he had these the four

agreements. That's the guy the book.

>> Oh, this is Don Miguel.

>> Don Miguel Ruiz. Yeah, there we go. So

my wife and I decided we'll take the

four agreements and we'll work on each

agreement for 3 months. And so for 3

months that was the agreement, you know,

not making other people wrong, thinking

positive, etc. And we had to like

reinforce that and we had little signs

that told us what to focus on and so

forth. So I think it's important to do

that because as you know, we are so

distracted today now with AI and

scrolling through Instagram and I mean I

even get caught in that occasionally. I

go looking for something on YouTube and

next thing I know I'm watching old

reruns of Jay Leno.

But I think that uh yeah, reminders are

important.

>> Yeah, I'm going to use the doorway. That

is a great cue. It's actually something

if people want to read Exploring the

World of Lucid Dreaming, doorways are

also really helpful for some of that.

People can check out Steven Leair if you

want to go into a really weird town. And

also for people who might be wagging a

finger at me, I know that Carlos

Castonado was not a shaman, but it was

the teachings of Don Juan. I think a

Yaki way of knowledge. That was the book

that I was thinking of.

>> That was one of the first books I read.

That was a great book.

>> It's a compelling book. I mean, whether

it's real or not, it's a fun read.

>> Yeah.

>> So, I'm looking at a blog post. This is

from jackampfield.com.

Productivity tips. And

you, like me, I'm sure have quite a few

blog posts, but you've got I'll just

read the headlines here for a second.

There's clean up your messes. Two,

focus. Three, just say no. Four,

practice the rule of five, which we've

talked about a bit. Five, meditate. And

this is going to seem so mundane, but

I'm very curious if you could expand a

bit on clean up your messes and how you

go about doing it. because I have a few

Achilles heels as I suppose we all do

and one of them is I collect so much

goddamn paper. I am a hypographic

notetaking maniac and I just have paper

it metastasizes to cover every flat

surface that I have and I try to take

photos here and there and digitize but

it's messy and it really agitates me.

And I'm not saying that that's ideal.

Maybe it shouldn't bother me, but how do

you think about why is number one of

five on productivity tips? Clean up your

messes. And how do you do it?

>> Well, you're talking to a fellow person

who needs the same rehab, just so you

know.

>> I take more notes at a conference than

almost anybody. And I've got literally

books full of notes and taking notes

when I'm listening to stuff and podcast

things. I think the problem is that

every time you look at all that, it's

taking your attention.

>> Mhm.

>> And so the research that I've read says

we have the ability to hold about seven

attention units at a time. And so what

happens is that you'll notice the

research also like if a waitress if you

haven't paid the bill yet, any good

waiter or waitress can tell you what you

had.

>> Mhm.

>> As soon as you pay the bill, you ask

them 10 minutes later, they don't

remember anymore. They don't need to.

>> Yeah. So what happens is all those

attention units are being taken up by

things that are incomplete. So messes in

my world are incompletions. So anything

that's incomplete. Now that can be that

thing you started you didn't finish. It

could be that letter you were writing

the book you're not finished up the

notes you have over here. But what I've

learned to do is find a place for those

things. You know like lots of filing

systems. I have filing systems in my

computer. I have filing systems I about

10 drawers in my office that are file

drawers. And so things go in those

places. And if I need to remember

something to do it, I have a what's

called a come-up file. So let's say I

need to do something March 28th, I have

a folder called March. So on the 1 of

March, I go through that folder of

everything I put in there and then I put

it into my calendar for those days or I

can put it in now, you know, like call

Steve on March 28th. But if there's

papers related to that, things we're

going to talk about, whatever, it goes

in my March file. So it's there. It's

not in my visual cue.

So what happens is whether it's a

relationship and we've all had that

experience of walking through a grocery

store and seeing someone down the aisle

we don't want to talk to so we go

another a hope we evade him you know

because it's incomplete. So all that

energy is taken up because it's not

complete. All the things you've never

said the upsets the thank yous the

acknowledgements the wanting

acknowledgements and not having got

them. They're taking up space in your

head. So everything you can close up,

it's almost like you're taking a piece

of paper off the desk and pretty soon

you have a clean desk. Do you know Dan

Solomon's work, the strategic coach?

>> Yeah, he's got some great stuff. He's

got some great stuff.

>> Well, one of the things I learned from

him, he doesn't have a desk. He's got

three or four offices with conference

tables and he'll go into one and say,

"Bring over that stuff." And he'll work

with one of his people. They do all the

things they need to do. They walk out

with all the papers. He's done. Doesn't

have that pileup [ __ ] that I deal with

and you deal with. But the reality is

that everything is incomplete. You're

walking through the hall of your house,

you see a little crack in the wall and

you go, "Oh, it needs to get fixed."

>> Pretty soon you won't see that crack

because you have to block it out of your

awareness to pay attention to other

things. So now things are not getting

handled that need to get handled. And

also if you do keep paying attention to

it, that's time you could have spent

writing your book or thinking about your

project or loving your mother or giving

good feedback to your girlfriend or

whatever. So, the reality is it's really

important to clean that up. And there's

financial messes, there's garage messes,

there's, you know, the attic, the tool

drawer, the door that has the leashes,

the Oh my god, I can feel my cursor is

all p piling up as you're listening.

Sounds like sounds like you're in my

house on my nanny cam.

>> I'm going to send you I have a a sheet

of like 21 things you need to clean up.

I used to work for a company called

Insight Training Seminars. And if you

were a trainer, you had to clean all

that up because you had to be living

that you were complete. And you couldn't

teach it if you weren't living it. You

know, there's, think about it. Financial

records, your checkbook balance, stuff

in your car, clothes that don't fit

anymore. I mean, you go down the list of

all that stuff. I literally had to go

through my clothes at one point. I'm a

shirt [ __ ] I love shirts. You know,

>> this is another thing we have in common.

No, I have so many t-shirts. It's just

unacceptable. It's indefensible.

>> I know.

>> I know. But I had to go through and kind

of clean it out, you know, because it

got to a point where I couldn't even put

anything in the closet. And so the rule

is if if I haven't worn it in the last

60 days and it's not a tuxedo or

something like that, it's gone.

I love all the decluttering books that

are out there and, you know, all that

kind of stuff. One person said, "Go

through your house, take everything you

haven't used in the last 30 days, put it

in a box, label the box, what's in it,

and if about another 120 days go by and

you haven't used it, just throw it out

cuz you're not you're never going to use

it again."

Well, I'll tell you a dirty little

secret, which is, you know, I moved

eight years ago from San Francisco to

Austin, and I moved all my stuff from

California into storage because there

was a gap where I was shopping for a

place, and I didn't have anywhere to put

all this stuff. It has been sitting in

storage, all that stuff, for 8 years.

And I have not I have I get a bill for

it every month, and I'm like, I should

go down and take a look at that. And I'm

like, I cannot allow myself to look at

that stuff cuz I'm going to want to keep

all this junk that I haven't needed in 8

years. So, it's my ignorance is bliss

approach.

>> It's a small tax to pay at this point.

>> Oh, yeah. Stuff.

>> George Carlin does a really good routine

on stuff. If you can find it, it's

really amazing.

>> Oh, I will find it.

>> Yeah.

>> George Carlin, what a genius. Also, his

his late night bit on heaven and hell.

People can look that up where it's like

the, you know, where in heaven the

French are the cooks, the Japanese the

lovers and this and this and then in

hell x y and z. It's also worth checking

out.

But decluttering the 21 things that I

need to clean up. Please do send that to

me.

>> Yeah, I will. I will.

>> Is that something we could share in the

show notes for this episode? Okay. All

right. Perfect.

>> I think it's even a page in my book. If

not, I'll I'll get it for you.

>> All right. Perfect. Jack, we've covered

a ton of ground. I don't want to take up

your entire afternoon on a a Friday, but

is there anything else that I'm not in

any rush whatsoever, but is there

anything else that you'd like to talk

about that we haven't covered? Anything

you'd like to say, request of my

audience, anything at all that you'd

like to bring up that I haven't already

prompted? I would just say, you know,

kind of self- servingly that if you

would like to know more about my work,

the book that Tim talked about, it's not

his 20th anniversary edition, the

success principles, how to get from

where you are to where you want to be.

It's really the basis of everything I

do. If you haven't read a Chicken Soup

book, start with the first one. It's

really brilliant. One thing I did, Tim,

I haven't done it for all my books, but

I did with that book, I literally after

we'd probably edited every story five or

six times, went out to Colorado to a ski

resort in the summer, took three days,

read every story out loud.

>> Mhm.

>> Because what I know is when most people

read, they're subocalizing in their

brain. They're not speed reading.

>> Sure.

>> And if it didn't sound, as one of my

actors says, coming trippingly off the

tongue, I would rewrite it.

>> And that book went on to sell 105

million copies. So basically I think

that was a good thing to do. So I always

tell people like you said you know get

feedback but also read it out loud. How

does it sound to you? You know

>> and then make sure you get I always say

get feedback from at least 20 people.

First teenage soul book we had an entire

high school suspend classes for a day.

Over 1,000 kids read all the stories. So

we had an Excel spreadsheet. They all

graded every story on a scale of 1 to

10. That book went on to sell I think 6

million copies or something like that

you know. Oh wow.

>> Feedback. I love what Kim Lynch says.

Feedback is the breakfast of champions.

You know,

>> feedback is the breakfast of champions.

>> And most people avoid feedback because

they're afraid of what they're going to

hear. And you got to know that we call

it constructive feed forward, you know,

constructive feedback.

>> But anyway, I would read that book. Go

to my website jackcampfield.com.

There's all kinds of things there you

might be interested. And it's

interesting. I don't normally say this,

but last night for some reason I was

looking up something and I couldn't

remember it and I thought it was there's

a guy named Nick Nanton. He did a a

documentary of my life called The Soul

of Success. And I went in there to find

one little thing and I don't know called

Egotistical or whatever. I watched the

whole damn hour on YouTube. It's free.

Just go the Soul of Success on YouTube

and you'll see one of the most amazing

documentaries ever made I think because

he's a Emmy-winning documentarian.

really good thing. So, that'll give you

some information about some of the stuff

Tim and I talked about that maybe we

didn't go deep enough on. And that's

about it, I would say. You know,

>> and we'll link to everything we've

discussed in the show notes. Jack

Canfield, also, just to reiterate the

spelling civil.com.

You can find all that. We'll of course

link to everything as per usual in the

show notes at tim.blog/mpodcast

blog/podcast for everybody, including

the 21 things to clean up, which is

going to it's going to ride hard on my

OCD, which which is properly diagnosed.

I'm not just making that up as a swipe

against OCD, folks. Big shocker to

anyone who actually knows me. I'm

kidding. But what I will say as we wind

to a close, Jack, is that you've had a

huge impact on my life. Your work has

had an impact. You personally have had

an impact. You've been so gracious, so

patient.

I don't know if you remember this, but I

remember when I was volunteering that at

that event, Sace, and I had all the

speakers, I had some type of waiver cuz

I wanted to record everything. And uh

the waiver was, I'm sure, all sweeping

and full encompassing of everything

because I had probably gotten it online

somehow. And I remember you had your

glasses on and you sort of pulled down

the glasses like a very patient parent

and you're like, "Timothy, I have some

questions about this release." And then

you scratched everything out. You

scratched a bunch of nonsense out and

you signed it. You've had an incredible

impact on my on my career. And I just

want to to thank you for all of that and

for what you offer to the world as a as

an eternal student and as a teacher.

>> Oh, thank you.

>> And I really appreciate you taking the

time.

>> Well, I've enjoyed this one of the best

podcasts I've ever been on. So, thank

you.

>> Yeah, my pleasure. Least I can do. And I

I'll say it one more time. Everybody

who's listening, we will link to

everything in the show notes. Tim

tim.blog/mpodcast.

Just search Canfield, C N F I E L D, and

it will pop right up. And until next

time, be just a bit kinder than is

necessary to others, but also to

yourself. And thanks for tuning in.