Should we stop grading students?

discussion keeps the world turning.

>> This is Round Table. [music]

Hello, welcome to Round Table, where we serve up piping hot debates on the issues that sizzle in China and beyond.

I'm Yolin. [music]

If grades disappeared tomorrow, would students stop learning or start learning differently? That question is no longer

differently? That question is no longer theoretical. From Chinese [music]

theoretical. From Chinese [music] primary schools to American college classrooms, teachers and policy makers are actively [music] experimenting with what happens when exams lose their

central role. Today, round table invites

central role. Today, round table invites you to discuss if we stop measuring performance, will [music] the experience of learning itself improve? For this

episode, I'm joined by Ushan and Steve Hatherly. [music] Now, grab your virtual

Hatherly. [music] Now, grab your virtual compass and follow us to the heart of the discussion.

Education authorities in China are tightening restrictions on routine exams, limiting rankings and removing written tests for younger students, part of a broader effort to reduce academic

pressure and refocus schools on holistic development. Meanwhile, in classrooms

development. Meanwhile, in classrooms across the United States and other countries, educators are independently questioning whether traditional grades still serve learning at all. Together

these shifts point to a global rethinking of how success in education is defined. Let's start with the news

is defined. Let's start with the news here in China, the new policy, exactly what they are about and uh what are our views towards these? Yeah, to start

with, there's been a new notice, a brand new one that's released just this December by the General Office of thee, which is the Ministry of Education here in China, referring to the notice on

further strengthening the management of routine exams in primary and secondary schools. So, it's the latest directive

schools. So, it's the latest directive aimed at slimming down the daily exam burden for primary and secondary students here in China. And actually

there are many areas that's being covered in this latest notice. There's

those that for the students um for the schools and for the administrative bureaus. But the these are not entirely

bureaus. But the these are not entirely new here. Many have been first mentioned

new here. Many have been first mentioned back in 2021 as part of the very famous double reduction reform here in China, which if you don't know is actually a

national initiative begun um back in 2021 that aims to reduce the crushing academic burden and kind of protect our kids out there. Crushing is a big word.

>> Crushing. Yeah, that's strong. Um that

was about reducing homework and also reducing tutoring outside of of school times right?

>> Yes. that yeah that's what the reform was best known for but it actually covers like far more than just homework and outside school uh tutoring. It also

covers on how reduce exam matters and um which kind of h has been mentioned again in the very latest and newly released

notice here. So that includes um for

notice here. So that includes um for first graders that's typically kids of um six to seven years old and also the second graders as well. They will no longer face written paper and pencil

exams. >> Did you hear that, kids? [laughter]

>> We can hear them screaming through our headsets, right? No more written exams

headsets, right? No more written exams for six and seven year [clears throat] olds. Excuse me. But even just saying

olds. Excuse me. But even just saying that out loud, no more exams for six year olds. Kind of makes sense. It

year olds. Kind of makes sense. It

sounds correct, doesn't it?

>> And then [clears throat] for other grades in China's compulsory educational system, that's a system that covers from first grade to 9th grade. So we're

talking about those that's between the second grade and ninth grade. Now for

them the schools are restricted to just one final exam per semester. And then

for middle school students, schools may arrange one midterm exam based on the per um practical needs of different subjects, but that's about it. And then

there's also a ban on the so-called shadow regional exam. So that's me that means that the largecale exams across districts for schools are no longer

allowed for primary students or for non-graduating middle and high school years. Meaning that you know the schools

years. Meaning that you know the schools they sometimes do it within the same district or within the same city um across schools and kind of start this exam that's not really meant for like a

finalizing of this semester and stuff like that.

>> I was a little bit confused by that term a shadow exam. So is that like a district like a district within a city will decide all the schools within that district will decide to issue that exam?

>> Yes. The idea is to see whether or not the students in your schools are performing well or performing better than students in other schools. So for

these kind of exams to exist, we see I think I remember when I was in primary school and secondary school to start with I remember at the end of a semester

there would be a huge paper uh being put onto the wall and with everybody's name on that paper from from

my grade and it's from top to the bottom based on the scores the um uh overall scores that you get from all the different subjects. That's one type.

different subjects. That's one type.

>> That's and that's being made public to everyone in the school.

>> Yes. And another thing was the shadow examination that usually happens to those who are in the um largest or the

the the greatest grades or um excuse me, I think they are the largest or oldest in the school. So in primary school it will be the sixth graders. In middle

school, it will be the third graders, the senior ones in the school. And it is for them to have a general idea of where they are in the city because at that

time I remembered it's either in the city or in the region that your ranking would determine which um high school or

which middle school you get into. So

those [clears throat] are for the purpose for students to have a overall idea. Yeah. And you can see how if you

idea. Yeah. And you can see how if you were at the top of that list, it would be a time of celebration and pride, but if you found yourself from the middle towards the bottom of that list, then

that's obviously going to be soulc crushing and potentially embarrassing.

[snorts] Um, speaking of high schools, so the number of exams for high school students, that's going to be strictly limited now. And there's also going to

limited now. And there's also going to be an elimination of public rankings and score worship. They call it score

score worship. They call it score worship. So schools are now really

worship. So schools are now really prohibited, strictly prohibited from publishing exam results or ranking students based on their scores. And

instead of raw numbers, schools must use level-based evaluations. What I mean by

level-based evaluations. What I mean by that is A or B or C or D. And they have to find ways to inform parents of progress without fostering this kind of

what they call pointchasing environment. You see, many of these had

environment. You see, many of these had already been mentioned four years ago back in 2021, including the stop ranking kids, stop uh paper exams for for first

and second graders, stop well, [clears throat] not stop like lessen the mock exam, etc. But what different sounds different now is how the kids are being evaluated, especially what you

just mentioned, Steve, the level-based evaluations of ABCD instead of just looking at numbers of scores. That's

something new this year. And instead of just looking us banning the ranking, teachers and schools in general are looking at kids in a more holistic way

than ever before. And over the years, many Chinese cities, they have actually already adopted the level-based evaluation. Shanghai, for example, it

evaluation. Shanghai, for example, it kind of began as the first as far as I can find. Already back in 2016, they are

can find. Already back in 2016, they are adopting this level-based evaluation system. and then Guanjo in 2018. That's

system. and then Guanjo in 2018. That's

all even before the double reduction was first mentioned. And then Beijing, I'm

first mentioned. And then Beijing, I'm not sure exactly when, but it's also around the time of 2021 2022 similar to Chongqing and Hanjo. So it's not exactly the very first time this is being

mentioned, but we are seeing a expanding of scale in adop adopting um the policies alike all over China. Nowadays

there is a shift in the world of education. I remember back when I was in

education. I remember back when I was in primary school and middle school, the reason that the teachers are ranking students and then they would separate the students into different classrooms

or into different classes based on the ranking that was because there were too many kids in the schools and >> how many how many students would have been in the school or or in the or per

class.

>> At my time it was around 70 to 80 students in [clears throat] my class in primary school. many many students and

primary school. many many students and the problem was that because we were primary school students and we react to the knowledge differently. Some students

are faster because maybe they're older relatively speaking, maybe they're just more sensitive and mature to certain subjects. And if you do not separate

subjects. And if you do not separate them, there will be phenomenon or there would be phenomenon that some students have already totally mastered the knowledge where others haven't even

started grasping or understanding it.

And at that time ranking them, putting them into different classes is a way to make sure that kids are learning or using the valuable time in classes. And

that was the trend at that time. And a

little bit later we see that with more and more kids focusing a bit more a bit too much on the score on the ranking and instead of learning the language they started to learn quote unquote tricks in

understanding the questions, answering the questions. We have different little

the questions. We have different little tricks.

>> You're you're you're you're you're turning it into a game almost.

>> Almost. You learn the rule and you play the game. It's not necessarily because

the game. It's not necessarily because you understand the >> the rule of math, the nature of physics from a fundamental deeper level, but

because you learn the tricks. You see it as equation and you solve it.

>> Yeah. Now, now taking that into account and then taking into account that based on your scores, classes in the past may have been reshuffled or you might change a teacher might change the seating in

the classrooms. It's kind of like labeling the students. So if you know as a student if you know that's going to happen to you if you don't perform well

that shifts the focus away from learning the subject all of a sudden onto the um the pressure of existing within the society of school and the hierarch the

social hierarchy um and it will probably too take away from the fun of learning any particular subject that you might not be excelling at.

>> Yeah. But growing up from my age, I cannot help but ask because at my time, I thought yes, examinations can

sometimes be cruel. Having my names on the paper moving up and down based on my performance on just one exam with multiple subjects might be a little bit

harsh, but it was fair. It was totally fair. I know my scores don't lie, but at

fair. I know my scores don't lie, but at this kind of Yeah. And that's if we're using this kind of way to measure to um

evaluate students, how can we make sure that all of the opportunities are still very fairly distributed to the students and they are given the same level or

relatively more fairly attention from teachers.

>> Well, I mean experts will tell you that exams and quizzes they yeah they still matter. They're not completely useless,

matter. They're not completely useless, but they are not the only way to evaluate learning because truly understanding whether a child is

learning and developing the content being taught in the class that requires ongoing and processbased evaluations.

And there are different options on how you can do that. You can assess how students complete small research projects or give presentations or tackle

other performance-based tasks. And this

is kind of the idea behind um alternative grading is that not everything needs to be done through here's the content now I'll test you on

it. Here's more content now I'll test

it. Here's more content now I'll test you on it. And um since now there are ideally to be fewer exams then the the next goal especially for the schools I

think is to better their question design and enhance overall exam quality for those that's that still remains you know the finals the midterms and a lot of

educational research and exam exam authorities out there they're at pressure nowadays because they are responsible for guiding and supporting the management of routine exams with

stronger oversight of question design and quality control. And here's what I found really interesting and that's brand new this year too. So it's

specified in the latest notice that question designers and reviewers must be separated and in principle at least three reviewers are required for quality

checks of the exam paper. You see that's how schools or rather the educational um authorities locally we're we're mentioning a very large um spectrum of different authorities here but in

general they are required to really supervise the exam qualities to maintain a relatively sustainable environment even after there are less fewer exams in the future.

>> Yeah and it totally makes sense. I don't

know if it exists in English but in Chinese we have a term a word that means knowledge point. We're viewing it as a

knowledge point. We're viewing it as a exact point of knowledge like 1 + 1 equals 2. That is one knowledge point.

equals 2. That is one knowledge point.

And to test that point you design a question for that knowledge point. But

growing older growing up you realize they're not points. They're linked

together. They're connected with each other. So some students learn things

other. So some students learn things differently. Maybe they are gaining or

differently. Maybe they are gaining or accumulating these language points, but at a certain point they got the epiphany. They suddenly understand

epiphany. They suddenly understand everything. So, constantly testing them

everything. So, constantly testing them would not help their learning process.

>> Well, yeah, because it doesn't necessarily [clears throat] mean that they're not capable of learning it. It just means they may not

learning it. It just means they may not have learned it in that specified period of time that was dedicated to that knowledge point, as you called it, in

the classroom. But when you can shift

the classroom. But when you can shift away from the let's call it uh teaching for testing >> if you can shift away from that to

different types of evaluation where schools can paint perhaps a better picture or a more complete picture accurate picture of how students are actually growing and learning in

developing not just how they perform on a test. Then you develop a kind of

a test. Then you develop a kind of portfolio and they refer to that in the education world they call it teaching portfolios or education portfolios student portfolios where it's a body of knowledge that students acquire over a

peri over a period of time to show that they grasp the concepts being taught not when they specifically on what day they grasp the concepts. So the point for

still the compulsory education, the primary school and middle school students, we're not saying we stop testing whether or not they grasp the knowledge. It's just we're doing it in a

knowledge. It's just we're doing it in a different way. But the shift from

different way. But the shift from scoring as the primary um let's say standard to measure the performance of students have definitely

be shifting slowly but very firmly towards trying to see or assess the performance of learning of students to see whether or not they have the ability

to learn the knowledge not only to see whether they grasp the knowledge and it's not only for compulsory education in China this goes to um even higher

education. And uh on July 25th, 2025,

education. And uh on July 25th, 2025, Pik University dropped the news for undergraduates. Starting with the class

undergraduates. Starting with the class of 2025, the university scrapped GPA across all departments and adopted a different way to grade the students and

it's kind of like an alternative way.

And we have interviewed a post-graduate student to see whether or not this is welcomed.

Personally, I'm very much in favor of this kind of reform. Looking back at my own

reform. Looking back at my own classmates and my undergraduate experience, we were constantly stressed about GPA.

Every exam, every assignment felt nerve-wracking. Over time, that pressure

nerve-wracking. Over time, that pressure drained the joy out of learning. Instead

of being motivated by curiosity or understanding, we were pushed toward a kind of great first utilitydriven mindset we might call meritocracy taken

to an extreme. I also think GPA reflects a certain institutional shortcut.

Reducing a student's entire learning experience to a single score because it's easier to measure. But from a student's perspective, love learning

itself matters far more. So compared

with systems obsessed with scores and rankings, this reform has a better chance of helping students reconnect with learning not as a competition, but

as a process of growth.

>> And this is a thirdyear post-graduate student. And yes, students are loving

student. And yes, students are loving it. No, it's not because they're not

it. No, it's not because they're not evaluated anymore. is because it helps

evaluated anymore. is because it helps them to learn happier and better. How

about teachers?

>> Well, for teachers, I actually asked around mostly from a friend who currently works in a middle school in Beijing nowadays. So, according to her,

Beijing nowadays. So, according to her, their midterm and final exam altogether account for 70% of a student's semester grade with another 30% coming from

day-to-day performance that include the homework like activity, presentation, all adding up together. And the schools they only release grade levels not

numerical scores or rankings. And um

it's really interesting for few years she mentioned they've adopted this evaluation um exam of band A to band D.

So A is for students graded between 85 to 100 um as per scores and B is for 70 75 to 84. C is for 60 to 74 and then D

for anything below 60. So teachers, they still write the actual score on the exam paper, but what's different nowadays is that they don't release it. You know it.

You keep it to yourself. You want to chat about it? Well, we don't stop you from exchanging scores, but it's not the purpose anymore. So, um during parent

purpose anymore. So, um during parent meetings, teachers will only share like um how many students fall into each grade band and the class average. they

stop kind of pass on the anxiety for parents to you know worry about oh which position my kid belongs to >> this is better for parents too maybe >> and the teachers themselves they you

know um for middle schools they there's um music teacher for this class or a Chinese teacher an English teacher math teacher and then there's one teacher

that's the teacher in charge and these teacher in charge they have what they call a big chart that kind of incorporates all of the

students in their class and as well as how they perform in each major. And with

that big chart, they have what they call the internal records to just identify which student shows strength on which subject and who needs extra support on

that certain subject. So you see the the trend here is not you know releasing your rank letting you and the parents know where you are or creating anxiety

or anything but it's for how we can better help you knowing that you have this you know shown of weakness or strength. Yeah, and that's one of the

strength. Yeah, and that's one of the concepts behind alternative grading is that the parents and the teachers and the students are all working together

where the students strengths are identified but also where the students weaknesses are identified uh too so that it's more of a holistic approach to

education or to the particular content being taught as opposed to the focused on the test. M and we mentioned this at the beginning of our show that is it's not only happening in China it's

happening all around the world and uh United States for example have been doing this have been officially talking about replacing great

>> yeah I mean this is being discussed um over the past 10 to 15 years there's been a little bit more momentum towards alternative grading and that's been

driven by research that shows that The traditional way of giving grades often fails to reflect real learning in the students. Um it also reduces their

students. Um it also reduces their motivation when you give them traditional grades because if they don't excel then they lose interest in the

subject um or they can anyway. Um that

kind of focuses on fear to um the fear culture of testing when you're you know are you going to do well or not. some

students just don't do well on on tests or even on that day they might be having a bad day and it encourages cheating. If

the students feel that they're not prepared for a particular test, they might be encouraged to find alternative methods uh if you will.

>> Um that's in that's [clears throat] in America and they they're looking at it in in other countries as well. Finland

is a is ranked among the top in terms of global uh education rankings and they use a narrative-based assessment system where they evaluate students throughout

um qualitative feedback rather than numerical scores where they'll talk to the students and the parents is what I was talking about before and let them know where they stand.

>> Yes. And we've also interviewed a Canadian teacher.

>> Yes. Who happens to be my sister. So I

wouldn't call it an interview per se.

[laughter] um she's an elementary school teacher in Ottawa, the capital of Canada, and I wanted to know her thoughts on alternative grading, and if it's really

realistic or not. And this is what she said.

>> Alternative grading, I think, is a terrific idea. Provincial curriculum

terrific idea. Provincial curriculum documents indicate goals that should be accomplished by the end of a grade.

However, units and strands of learning are taught and evaluated one at a time.

For instance, two-digit by twodigit multiplication is taught and evaluated once throughout the school year. If

alternative grading was a practice, then students would identify what they need to work on to master this concept and have until the end of the year to achieve this goal. That is a major and

important benefit. What might prohibit

important benefit. What might prohibit alternative grading, however, in my opinion is twofold. One is that government funding for public education

is low. Classroom numbers are high. A

is low. Classroom numbers are high. A

local middle school here has 42 students in a grade six class. Imagine a home room teacher teaching multiple subjects to 42 students. And the reality of that is that of those 42 students, there are

a number of learning and behavioral challenges. Support staff and classrooms

challenges. Support staff and classrooms need to increase. We simply do not have enough educational assistance. In order

to allow teachers to transform their grading practices, a mindset and monetary shift needs to occur by the people making the decisions, many of

whom have never set foot in a classroom.

All that being said, alternative grading seems to be studentdriven, and with buyin by school boards, teachers, and the students themselves, it could be gamechanging.

>> Yeah. So, um, thank you to my sister for sharing her thoughts on that. I think

she brings up really great points.

Alternative grading in a vacuum on paper is perfect.

>> But the reality for schools, even in Canada, where you'll have 42 students in a grade six class, is that when you don't have proper funding from the

government and you also have to deal with learning and behavioral issues, right, that eats into class time as well. It's just not really that

well. It's just not really that realistic to implement it nationwide and make it a a government mandate because you need more money, you need more resources, and you need to have this the

teachers be able to spend more individual time with students than they have right now. And on top of that, the reason that we're moving to alternative grading, we're moving to not ranking

students solely based on their scores is for the purpose that we want to make sure each and every student, they're different. They are sensitive to

different. They are sensitive to different subjects. They're talented in

different subjects. They're talented in different areas. We want to make sure

different areas. We want to make sure they can find their talent. They can

grow to the best version that I hope they hope they can get. Which is why this also requires more than just alternative grading. It requires

alternative grading. It requires teachers and policy makers to design other better form to give kids the incentive they need to start loving to

to learn. And we have different examples

to learn. And we have different examples in China. I don't know if you had

in China. I don't know if you had experience of playing the room escape kind of games. In some of those games, there are different questions you need to solve to get the password of a

certain door. That is one way of

certain door. That is one way of learning and some schools are doing that to a class of students. And also in real life situations, the students are required to solve problems in real life

situations in different groups. It's

their group session or their group mission that teachers are uh observing and they're guiding them and definitely still also evaluating their performances

throughout the problem solving journey.

Not only to see who solves the problem first, but to see who has contributed to the mission in what ways and what kind of talent they show up in the solving of

problems. And these creative and innovative ways are needed. But it also requires time, requires experiment to see whether or not it fits the students

in your class. And we are even raising requirements for teachers as well. I

think we're at the start of a of something new but something promising here because remember how you feel if you've ever participated in a GACO, the

college entrance examination. You get

there, you finish the gao and you feel such a big relief that I finished my previous um primary, middle school and high school learning. But why why is

there such a big relief? There should be accomplished feelings as well. But it it doesn't mean that it's it puts an end or a full stop of lifelong learning or the

habit of liking learning. See, that's

where we're trying to trans kind of shift the mindset here that we shouldn't feel like learning kind of pauses or stops at a after a certain exam,

whatever that exam might be, big or small, but rather learning itself is what matters in school for for both kids and schools.

>> I feel relief when I finish filling out the airport arrival cards. [laughter]

>> I can't imagine what finishing the GaCow must feel like.

>> Yeah, you should try it. It was fun.

>> Yeah, [laughter] I bet. And of course students are also trying different types or learning different things uh around the world. And also of course here in

the world. And also of course here in China we also conduct social and emotional learning. We also conduct

emotional learning. We also conduct education for sustainable development from awareness to action kind of learning and also there's the teaching

of uh how to learn beyond classrooms after school's finished. by saying

finished I mean after graduate from post-graduate or from a doctorate degree you still need to learn and all these abilities are very important students beyond schooling I

>> I think the the the point of all of this discussion about alternative grading and and and all all related topics is how can we put the students in the best position possible so [clears throat]

that they can learn as much as they possibly can and how can teachers um perform their abilities to the to the best of of their ability to.