Simon Sinek on India’s Future, Trust Crisis, Gen Z Burnout, Anxiety & AI Friends | FO476 Raj Shamani

Somebody at 19 is like a billionaire. 22

is doing this. 25 is doing that. And at

25, I already feel like I'm left behind.

How do I get out of this feeling?

There's always somebody out there that you can always find who's better than you. It depends what metric you're

you. It depends what metric you're looking at. Worry about yourself. Let

looking at. Worry about yourself. Let

them worry about themselves. There is no winning and losing in this game. It's

the wrong mindset. Nobody wins career.

Nobody wins business. Nobody wins

health. Nobody wins family. Doesn't

exist. There's no number one in any of those things. Say to yourself, "Am I

those things. Say to yourself, "Am I doing better today than I did yesterday?" compete against you. That's

yesterday?" compete against you. That's

the best competitor.

>> What breaks your heart today about the way people are living their life right now in today's generation?

>> No human being ever accomplished anything great by themselves. There was

always other people involved. And so

what breaks my heart is that we become a very isolated individualistic group.

We've forgotten the value of teams and groups.

One thing which is also bothering is we never even learn how to sit with ourselves, how to be bored. And that's

why we don't even think that how to become a better person. You know the story of the two lumberjacks. Every

morning they both start cutting wood at the same time. Every day they stop cutting wood at the same time. And every

day in the middle of the day, one lumberjack disappears for an hour. And

every day that lumberjacks cuts more woods than the other one. And so one day after months of this, the lumberjack who works all day, he says, "I have to ask you. Every day we start work at the same

you. Every day we start work at the same time. Every day we stop work at the same

time. Every day we stop work at the same time. and every day you cut more wood

time. and every day you cut more wood than me. Where do you go for that hour?

than me. Where do you go for that hour?

And the other lumberjack lifts up and goes, "Oh, I go home and sharpen my axe." And so working all the time

axe." And so working all the time doesn't necessarily make you more productive. Taking breaks and sharpening

productive. Taking breaks and sharpening your axe makes you more productive.

And we know like, but we usually have our best ideas in the shower or when we go for a run. And it's because our subconscious brains have access to the equivalent of something like 11 acres of information. Every question, every

information. Every question, every movie, every book gets stored somewhere.

But you can't consciously access that part of the brain. But when you're allowing your brain to ruminate, it finds connections that your thinking brain doesn't.

>> Now there are more opportunities for a young person that they can be more artistic, they can be more original, yet they are choosing not to be original and not to be artistic. When you start working for the approval of others, it

destroys art. And that's largely what a

destroys art. And that's largely what a lot of content creation is, is you're a freelance employee of an algorithm. The

minute you include money, the minute you're working for the algorithm, then you're no longer working for the creativity anymore.

A lot of young people just running away from problems by naming it ambition.

People deal with stress in different ways. Some people disappear and some

ways. Some people disappear and some people double down on work. You know,

you talk to any successful person on the planet. They don't learn lessons when

planet. They don't learn lessons when things go well. They learn lessons when things go badly. And every time things go wrong and they work their way through it or get their way through it, it makes them stronger, smarter, fitter, better.

And so you can't live a life of adversity.

The other person doesn't understand you and you go to that understands you. and somehow you feel like you just have this only one friend. Do you think it's it temporarily

friend. Do you think it's it temporarily being lonely is better or when you have nobody making AI your friend is better?

>> AI has some benefits, but I would be worried if AI was the only friend that somebody had. Did you see the movie Her?

somebody had. Did you see the movie Her?

>> No, not yet. So, in the movie Her, he has a rel a very intimate relationship with an AI bot. He's madly in love with her. And then he discovers that she's

her. And then he discovers that she's having an intimate relationship with millions of people simultaneously. And

he's so upset cuz he thought he was special. and she says, "I can have

special. and she says, "I can have relationships with millions of people.

You're not the only one." And at the end of the day, what makes a relationship amazing is that we know that we're special. And AI bots will make us feel

special. And AI bots will make us feel like we're special, but at the same time, they're doing it for millions of people simultaneously.

Before we start today's episode, we are on a mission to make an Indian podcast reach world number one. And as of today, we need 20.8 8 million subscribers to

get there. So, if you have found

get there. So, if you have found anything valuable from this channel, please subscribe. It's free and it takes

please subscribe. It's free and it takes less than a minute, but for us, it means a lot and it will take us closer to our dream. And in return, we promise to keep

dream. And in return, we promise to keep bringing you bigger and better guest every single time to make conversation more valuable for you. Now, if there's

one name that comes up every time you talk about leadership, purpose, the why of things, it's Simon Senic. He has

delivered one of the most washed TED talks ever. He has authored global

talks ever. He has authored global bestsellers that have been translated into multiple languages. and the

framework he's created have been adopted by top leaders, Fortune 500 companies and military leaders all around the world to transform their lives and their

companies. I personally have been

companies. I personally have been following his work for a very long time and I've learned a lot from him. So, I

hope you take something valuable from this conversation as well. In this

episode, we've talked about why trust is collapsing everywhere, why Jenzi already feels like they're behind, whether love and ambition can actually coexist, and

whether Simon would tell his younger self to do anything differently. Watch

this episode till the end, and let me know what are your key takeaways from this conversation in the comments. Enjoy

the show.

I got to tell you that you are the only person like not like one of probably one or three four people in my life who I've been constantly following since like 10 12 years.

>> Wow.

>> And I've not gotten bored like every time you come up with some new insight even though I've heard you like almost every interview of yours or podcast of yours.

>> Thank you.

>> And it's it's incredible. I was telling the team that there were so many heroes back then in 2013 who I used to look up to >> and almost everyone I've outgrown in some way because I've listened to them a lot.

>> Yeah. Yeah.

>> And then you come up with some stuff and I'm really happy that I'm doing this conversation.

>> I'm glad. Thank you for having me. It's

very nice of you.

>> Thank you.

>> Very nice words.

>> Tell me what breaks your heart today about the way people are living their life right now in today's generation.

Well, I think we've it's it's the it's the lack of relationships and uh it's and you know, we're social animals and we need each other and whether it's at

work or whether it's at home uh where people feel like they can't ask for help uh or they feel like um asking for help

is some sort of weakness.

Um, and then all of the social media and our phones, they only exaggerate that.

They and and they give a false sense of I'm okay. Um, and so what breaks my

I'm okay. Um, and so what breaks my heart is that we've become a very um isolated individualistic group. And you look at sort of even

group. And you look at sort of even incentive structures in companies, it's largely based on individual performance.

>> Um, and that we've forgotten the value of teams and groups. And you know, nobody no human being ever accomplished anything great by themselves.

>> True.

>> You know, it there was always other people involved.

>> Do you feel it's because we have become more individualistic or is it because we're lacking or losing trust on organizations and people and just in groups?

>> Uh they feed each other. So the more the that we've lost trust in organizations and companies that don't seem to care about their people, the more we're like, "Wow, fine. If you're not going to take

"Wow, fine. If you're not going to take care of me, I'll take care of me." And

the more selfish we become, the more, you know, trust breaks. And so it's they feed each other. Um the business models and the and the models for leadership have absolutely contributed to that

100%. And we we can see we can see uh

100%. And we we can see we can see uh where it came from. we can see where like when mass layoffs were first embraced in the early 1980s and it was

kind of still a new idea to use layoffs to balance the books. Um uh and we can start to see how uh Jack Welch and his those those people from General Electric

who sort of promoted these individual performance uh you know mass layoffs, short- termism, quarterly results, they promoted shareholder value. They

promoted these ideas and you can start to see how how it affected human behavior because when you change the incentive structures and the reward structures, you get, you know, you

change behaviors. Um and uh um and the

change behaviors. Um and uh um and the idea of giving your your your career to one company or two companies over the course of an entire lifetime disappeared.

>> Yeah.

>> Why do you think what's happening?

Because mass layoffs have been here for years.

>> All of a sudden, why are we losing trust so much now? It's not only on organizations, it's on individuals, it's on groups, it's in society, it's on the governments. Like there's something

governments. Like there's something probably deeper happening because of which we have stopped trusting people.

This is like a slow boiling frog, right?

It's been the water's been slowly heating up for years. And if it's reached a crescendo and everybody's like, why is it so much like right now?

I'm like, well, we've been getting here on a pretty steady basis. Um but I think you raise

steady basis. Um but I think you raise interesting points which is you know we we see governments operating like companies where governments the people who who who who have careers in politics

they have a shorter term mindset and they are thinking about winning and losing rather than advancing a cause.

you know, they want to it's it's it you see it in politics as well, very short very short-termist. And look,

very short-termist. And look, >> you can't talk about things like greed and those things that have existed since the dawn of human beings, right?

>> Um but why is it that the checks and balances on those kinds of things are reduced and and I think there's a distinct lack of belonging. You know, I think people don't feel like they belong to things anymore. And you can see on

the on the left or the right of politics, people grabbing onto things trying to find that sense of belonging.

you know, they latch on to a they latch on to some sort of issue and that becomes their movement until it's the next thing. Um, you know, rarely are

next thing. Um, you know, rarely are these things lifetimes worth of of connection. So, I think you can we're

connection. So, I think you can we're starting to see, you know, this lack of belonging affecting us because when there's a lack of belonging and you feel like, well, it's just me, then you're like, well, if nobody's going to look

out for me, I'll look out for me. Is it

also happening because because the whole information has gotten faster like we started trusting people or losing trust in people in like 30 seconds somebody and then it think blows

up it goes viral and you're not giving pe institutions or government enough time to course correct. You know there was a time where if you heard a news story >> Mhm.

>> you called a friend and you vented your anger >> Yeah. and or your reaction or your

>> Yeah. and or your reaction or your conspiracy theory like whatever happened and you sort of did it to your friends, you know, on the phone or or or

you know, in person and then you get it all out and then you sort of become rational again and you're like, well, you know, let's just wait and see. You

know, >> now there's no safe space for the um the unhinged reactions or there's no safe space for the for the knee-jerk

reactions. Now, we react in the place we

reactions. Now, we react in the place we read it, which is usually in online and social media. So, we react in the

social media. So, we react in the comments or we post our own thing in reaction and then everybody's reacting to the reactions and we kind of forgot what actually happened and we're all sort of fighting about the reactions and

what people think. And so that, you know, I I'm a I I I believe that if every single social media had a one minute delay, >> like you hit post and it and then

there's a little clock that says 60, 59, 40, 58, and there was just a one minute delay on every post, I bet half the stuff we post wouldn't go up. We'd be

like, "Ah, maybe I won't put that." You

know, but once you put it out there and people start reacting to your actions, then we become super defensive.

>> Yeah. It's a funny thing, isn't it?

>> It is.

>> We don't trust anymore.

>> Yeah.

But when we hear something that triggers us, we don't investigate what's actually happening. We just react to it. So, it's

happening. We just react to it. So, it's

ironic that we don't seem to trust information or institutions, but we seem to overly trust information that we're hearing and not looking into.

>> Do you think we actually trust or do you think it's we don't care about whether we trust this information? Is it right or wrong? We just want to give our

or wrong? We just want to give our opinion. I mean, if I said something to

opinion. I mean, if I said something to you that triggered you, you would have an opinion. You would not be curious.

an opinion. You would not be curious.

And so, it's easier to be judgmental than curious because judgmental is instantaneous.

Judgment is instantaneous. Curiosity

requires patience and slowing the system down.

>> Um, curiosity requires asking questions that challenge our own assumptions.

Curiosity requires us to be to investigate legitimately, not just find things that reinforce our points of view. So judgment is fun.

Judgment is easy. Judgment is

entertaining. Judgment is emotional, which makes it exciting. You know,

curiosity is >> it's it's a longer it's a slower burn, >> you know. You know, so I read things in the news that there the government's doing this or the government's doing that and I I I can feel myself having an

opinion.

>> Yeah.

>> To the headline.

>> Yeah.

>> And then I always say, well, why don't you go find out what the origins of this are or what will happen or what won't happen? And

I'm looking in places that aren't political. So, I'm not just looking at

political. So, I'm not just looking at what politicians or or social media commentators are saying. I'm going and reading articles and I'm going and looking at historical documents. And by

the way, it it this takes minutes, not hours, right? And instantly I'm like,

hours, right? And instantly I'm like, ah, it's not that bad, you know? Or,

ooh, I think that's worse than people think, >> you know.

>> Why do you think people are not even investing 2 minutes, 3 minutes? They

don't >> because we we we treat we treat the news we treat social first of all, Instagram and Tik Tok are the primary sources of news today. Okay, that's number one.

news today. Okay, that's number one.

>> Yeah.

>> Okay.

>> Uh and because we treat the news like we treat a dating app. It's like you look, you swipe right, you swipe left, onto the next.

>> And so you read a headline, you either comment, you don't, you form an opinion, onto the next, onto the next, onto the next. I mean, it's it's it's

next. I mean, it's it's it's newsertainment right?

>> Yes.

>> Who do you think whose fault is this?

>> It's ours. Everybody everybody's to blame.

>> Not the algorithms, not the platforms, not these companies who have >> of course of course they bear liability.

And if if if one of them if I hear another one of them say, "Well, buy or beware, you know, they can always not use us." That's like telling a an addict

use us." That's like telling a an addict who's like, "Well, you have the choice not to be a drinker or a smoker. You can

just stop." You be like, "Not really." No. Especially when you have

really." No. Especially when you have teams of scientists figuring out >> how to hijack our dopamine system to keep us online for longer, you know, infinite scroll and all the rest of it.

Um, of course they bear responsibility.

You know it's you can't remove them from the chain of events. Now do they bear all the responsibility? Of course not.

But of course they bear responsibility.

>> So what do we do now? Like how do we bring it back? How do we bring this this world where we used to trust each other more? We used to trust people more. We

more? We used to trust people more. We

used to trust news more.

>> Yeah. Well, change starts at home, right? Um, it's all fine and good to

right? Um, it's all fine and good to complain about companies and complain about the system or complain about the government, but if we want to see and feel change in our lives, then we have

to be the agents of change. And so, if you want to feel trusted and trust more, then start with your friends, start at home, start start at work, learn to be a trust, a trusted person. Um, I you know,

our our world is somewhat of a reflection of us.

>> So, you said learn to become trusted first. Yeah.

first. Yeah.

>> How can somebody do that? what are the ingredients of trust?

>> Um, so I think so very often we confuse trust and reliability. Um, you know, simply doing what you say is a component, but we've all have friends that we trust that let us down and

sometimes we let other people down. Does

that mean all trust is violated? No. No.

It could be a step back, but it's not a complete breakdown. Um, uh, trust comes

complete breakdown. Um, uh, trust comes from psychological safety. It's the

feeling we get when we feel that someone has our back. You know, none of us walk around with a notebook in our back pocket keeping track of all the things our friends do for us and how many

things we do for our friends. You know,

uh uh my my I may do a hundred things for my friends and my friends do nothing for me, but I never say, "Well, you owe me cuz this month, look at all the things I did for you and you didn't do anything for me." M

>> cuz I walk around with the um absolute confidence that if if and when I need them, I know without a doubt they'll be there for me. And so I think that that

that psychological safety that's built up over time and sometimes it happens quickly and sometimes it happens slowly, but it's and it's a dance, right? You

start with a little bit and you ask a little more. And like I have friends

little more. And like I have friends that are just for fun. My friend,

they're just fun. Do I rely on them? Do

I know they'd be there for me? No.

>> But I I love spending time with them.

And then I have friends who that I know that I could call and no matter what time of day or night they'll be there for me. Um,

and so I think I think it's hard to trust when you are not trusted. I think

I think that very often we we forget.

It's like being it's like being it's like if I were to go to a a party and sit in the corner by myself like this with a scowl on my face and say people

are the worst. No, people are so unfriendly. Not one person has come over

unfriendly. Not one person has come over here and said hello to me and even expressed any curiosity about me or my life. I hate this place and I hate

life. I hate this place and I hate everybody here. I'm like

everybody here. I'm like like it starts with you sitting in the corner by yourself with your arms folded looking grumpy. Like

looking grumpy. Like >> it it takes two. And so to to to put yourself out there to be a trusted person and and remember we don't build

trust by offering help. We build trust by asking for it. And the ability to ask for help and make yourself available to say, "I don't know what I'm doing. I

don't I'm unsure." And give someone else the the honor of getting to be there for you. That's where it starts. It starts

you. That's where it starts. It starts

by us taking uh the first step. By the

way, that's what leadership is. We call

you a leader not because you have rank.

We call you a leader because you went first. You're the first to take the

first. You're the first to take the risk. You're the first to run towards

risk. You're the first to run towards danger. you're the first to uh admit you

danger. you're the first to uh admit you don't know something or made a mistake, you set the tone. That's what leader means. And so if you want to lead the

means. And so if you want to lead the way to building trust, then you have to start by asking for help and you will build trust.

>> Let's say there are friends who you trust even though you don't talk to them very often. Yes.

very often. Yes.

>> But you know that you can rely on them% right. And there are people who you just

right. And there are people who you just go out to have fun.

>> Yeah.

>> Right.

Unnecessarily not both of them must have offered you help up front but still you trust few people and you don't again offered versus asked.

>> So you everybody goes like let me know if you need any help like everybody says that >> exactly >> right but how many friends call you and say I'm stuck >> and I don't mean a favor like I'm not

talking like hey you know can you put me on your podcast? I'm not talking about that's not asking for help. I'm talking

about like hey I'm I don't know what to do and I don't know who else to call.

>> So are you saying that people who you can trust they are the only like they've always asked you first and that >> no it's it's one of the ways in which

you build trust you could go first you know and you give them the honor uh of being there for you. Um so it doesn't matter who starts but the relationship has to start somewhere.

>> Then what's the difference between people who you can versus who you can't trust because they both are friends.

Some of it's based on timing. Some of

it's based on what you're going through, what they're going through. Some of it's based on values. Some of it's based on how much sleep you got the night before.

I mean, like, I don't have a formula. I

can tell you some of the things that would help. Like, I could tell you some

would help. Like, I could tell you some of the things that would help to have a successful relationship, but at the end of the day, there's certain intangibles that

some people you just click with and some people you don't. So, I mean, if I'd figured this out, yeah, I think we forget this, which is human beings are messy

and human beings are emotional and human beings are irrational. And so I think we over complicate what it means to be human when we ask for scientific,

rational, highly structured checklists in order to achieve an emotional goal >> like trust or love or any of these feelings.

Like again, I can tell you some best practices. I can tell you some things

practices. I can tell you some things that will probably contribute, but I also have friends where a lot of those things flew out the window and we love each other and trust each other. So, you

know, again, I can tell you some of the things that would help, but you're we can't we can't apply too much structure to an emotional, irrational, messy situation, >> right?

>> That's part of the magic and annoying things about people. You know, there are a lot of times where you deal with a messy person and that person breaks your trust. So you like a

lot of people I've heard and they say it often that they instantly go in that mode where now they're trusting no one.

What do you think is worse? Is trusting

a wrong person worse or trusting nobody for life? We know the answer to that

for life? We know the answer to that one. Of course, trusting no one is the

one. Of course, trusting no one is the wrong answer. Okay, you got burned. But

wrong answer. Okay, you got burned. But

if you build a wall around you because you were afraid of being hurt, you will.

It's like people who say, "I'm not going to fall in love ever again cuz I got hurt that one time." It's like, well, then you're going to live a lonely life and an unhappy life. Like, yes, everyone has had trust violated. Every one of us.

Every one of us has violated trust.

We've we've also been the the uh we've been the victims and we've been the the the the causes of those messy situations. And we've been defensive

situations. And we've been defensive even though we know we're wrong. And

other people have defense been defensive even though everybody knows that they're wrong. It's like accountability becomes

wrong. It's like accountability becomes a big part of it. And I think trust is not about getting everything right or getting everything wrong. A huge part of building trust is being accountable for when you get things right or when you

get things wrong. Right? And that's part of creating that psychological safety, which is if somebody accuses me of violating trust, even though I may be defensive because it hurts to hear, at some point I'm going to have to get to

the point sooner rather than later, you know, even if it's the next day to be like, you know what, I was thinking about what you're telling me and you're right. I I let you down and I and I

right. I I let you down and I and I didn't communicate and I was rude and I was defensive and that's not right and I'm sorry. Like that's a huge thing.

I'm sorry. Like that's a huge thing.

Accountability is a huge part of building trust. Something like 70% of

building trust. Something like 70% of medical malpractices are simply because the doctor refused to apologize, you know. Um so I think when when people are

know. Um so I think when when people are willing to take responsibility for their words and for their actions, it makes us more want to trust them even knowing that they get things wrong. You know,

one one more thing that we never learn apart from trust like how to trust and more and more young people now because they're losing trust because of information overload and all these things that we talked about that we're

not even becoming the person. One thing

which is also bothering is we never even learn how to sit with ourselves now to how to be idle, how to be bored. So we

don't reflect and that's why we don't even think that how to become a better person. What do you think happens with

person. What do you think happens with an entire generation when the generation doesn't really learn to sit alone? They're just

constantly stimulated.

So, it's like when you bake bread, you have to let it prove. You have to let it rise. You have to just let it be. You

rise. You have to just let it be. You

can't just mix the ingredients in a bowl, knead the dough, and throw it in the oven, you know? You have to let the yeast rise. And I think we undervalue we

yeast rise. And I think we undervalue we undervalue boredom. But it's partially

undervalue boredom. But it's partially because we've overindexed on making, you know, we care about productivity too much. We all think that you're doing

much. We all think that you're doing well if you're productive and you're not doing well if you're unproductive. I

used to I used to I used to wake up on a weekend at like 8 or 8:30 in the morning and then sit and build till noon. I just

like read the newspaper, play do a cross word puzzle, send a few texts. And like

people get mad at me. They're like, "How how can you just waste your day like that?" I was like, "First of all, it's

that?" I was like, "First of all, it's my day. I can do whatever I want. And

my day. I can do whatever I want. And

second of all, maybe that time alone where I'm not engaging and just getting to do things that my brain enjoys like the cross word puzzle or listening to music. I would sit in bed and just

music. I would sit in bed and just listen to music.

Maybe that's good for me. Maybe that

makes me healthier. Like just cuz I'm le not productive. You know, you know the

not productive. You know, you know the story of the two lumberjacks.

Every morning they both start cutting wood at the same time. Every day they stop cutting wood at the same time. And

every day in the middle of the day, one lumberjack disappears for an hour. And

every day that lumberjacks cuts more woods than the other one. Cuts more wood than the other one. And so one day after months of this, the lumberjack who works all day, he says, "I have to ask you.

Every day we start work at the same time. Every day we stop work at the same

time. Every day we stop work at the same time. Every day you disappear for one

time. Every day you disappear for one hour in the middle of the day. And every

day you cut more wood than me. where do

you go for that hour? And the other lumberjack looks up and goes, "Oh, I go home and sharpen my axe." And so working all the time doesn't necessarily make you more productive. Taking breaks and

sharpening your axe makes you more productive. And um we don't allow our

productive. And um we don't allow our minds to wander because of constant engagement. And we know like anybody

engagement. And we know like anybody who's ever had an idea, you rarely have the idea in the brainstorming session.

Usually the brainstorming session is valuable for posing the question or presenting the challenge, >> but we usually have our best ideas in the shower >> or when we go for a run

>> or we're sitting in the car driving to work or we're sitting on the bus and we're just looking out the window and all of a sudden you're like, >> I have it. And you come to work and like I I have it. I have it. I have it.

Right? Well, what's going on there? And

it's because our our rational brains, our uh uh our rational brains, our conscious brains have access to the equivalent of about 2 ft of information

around us. This is the part of the brain

around us. This is the part of the brain we access when we access our expertise.

We weigh the pros and cons. We think

about the problem. All the stuff we do in the brainstorming session.

Um but our subconscious brains have access to the equivalent of something like 11 acres of information. every

question, every movie, every book gets stored somewhere.

>> But you can't consciously access that part of the brain. So when you allow your brain to just ruminate, now it won't ruminate about anything. It'll

only ruminate about challenges, opportunities, or questions that are right in front of you. But when you allow your brain to ruminate, it finds connections that your thinking brain doesn't.

>> And so standing in the shower is a, you know, you can't be on your phone. That's

why you're having an idea. When you're

driving, you can't be on your phone. you

shouldn't be on your phone. You know,

that's why you have an idea. Your your

mind just wanders. And so the idea of doing nothing that we're seem to be afraid of lack of productivity and lack of boredom. In

reality, what we're doing is our we're allowing our minds to wander.

>> And I I carve out time for this. I'll go

for a walk without my phone. I'll go to a museum. I'll put my phone in airplane

a museum. I'll put my phone in airplane mode. And I'll just walk around and look

mode. And I'll just walk around and look at art. Now, it doesn't always happen

at art. Now, it doesn't always happen that I solve a problem, but I'm increasing the likelihood. So, one of the ways I have ideas is I build in what you would call boredom. Time to do

things that are engaging or disengaging in different ways. Listening to music.

So, um yeah, I think we undervalue boredom as a source of ideas.

>> There was a research in 2014 that people were asked to sit alone and sit idle and about 67% people said that they'd rather have electric shocks than to be sit sitting alone. That's funny.

sitting alone. That's funny.

>> It happened in 2014. What do you think?

Where have we reached today?

>> I mean, I think we are afraid of doing nothing. You can see it. You know, when

nothing. You can see it. You know, when you go to for dinner and your friend goes to the bathroom, what's the first thing you do?

>> Take out your phone. Cuz god forbid you should just sit in the restaurant and look around.

>> You know, you get on the bus, what's the first thing you do? Take out your phone.

>> You sit You're We just saw it driving here.

>> I'm sitting at a red light. I look over at the car next to me. What's the driver doing at a red light >> on the phone? Yeah. Like

it looks and feels like an addiction >> because that's what it is, right? Every

gap I've got, I've got to fill it.

>> Yeah.

>> You know, I I'm on my phone in the bathroom. I'm on my phone when the TV

bathroom. I'm on my phone when the TV commercial comes on. I'm on the phone if I'm bored watching the movie. I'm on the phone like it's in bed. I'm in the phone. The first thing I do when I wake

phone. The first thing I do when I wake up, you know? And there's nothing wrong with any of those things unless you feel like you have to do it all of the time.

Like if you're looking for your phone before you go to the toilet, >> you know, like and these are all it I mean it's a dopamine addiction and it

most closely resembles a gambling addiction.

>> But it's it's addictive behavior.

>> Do you think because of this we are losing our ability to think originally?

Like almost there are no original thinkers because original thinking requires some sort of friction, some sort of discomfort, some kind of chaos, like some kind of just sitting alone and

being comfortable.

>> It's a good question. I don't think that's the only reason. I think the other reason is what's happened in media, you know, which is there's there's fewer bets, you know, ever, you

know, when institutional money gets involved in the media business, it's this is why we see so many franchises and remakes, it's because the the risk, they're managing risk. And I think when

you make art and when you have an idea, you let go of that risk profile to some degree. It was a different risk profile.

degree. It was a different risk profile.

Um, you know, it would have been much easier for me as a career after I wrote Start with Y and had success with my first book to just franchise it, serialize it. You know, start with Y for

serialize it. You know, start with Y for chefs, start with Y for parents, start with Y for dentists, right? Like I could have written book after book after book after book and you know, maybe they would do well. Who knows? But

but for me though, that would be the low-risk high probability of success option. But uh

option. But uh I I that's not why I do things. And I I I'm not a businessman. I'm an artist.

>> So I kind of have an artist's approach to things, which is the desire to make things that I don't know how to make. The desire to learn things I don't know how they work. The

desire to solve problems I don't know how to solve. I like things that make my head hurt. Um

head hurt. Um but that's a different risk profile.

Um I think both have their place in an economy but to your point is the is the balance being lopsided to to one way or the other and the answer is of course and then you look at the way businesses

and startups are happening right which is it used to be that if you have a private business you had more freedom than a public company because of you didn't have the pressure from from from the investor community. But now you look at private businesses and the mount of

venture capital and private equity that are in private businesses they're as bad as public companies. the pressure is overwhelming for short-term results because the business models of the venture capitalist is they need to get

their money out in, you know, 3 to five, five to seven years and they're not interested in a company to build it for 20 years. Um, uh, and so and so if you

20 years. Um, uh, and so and so if you everybody wants to know what the growth plan is, what the scalability is, well, not everything is growable at high speed and not everything is instantly

scalable. And they're still good

scalable. And they're still good businesses. There might be smaller

businesses. There might be smaller businesses, but they're still good businesses. And we're so obsessed with

businesses. And we're so obsessed with the wrong metrics. I mean, you talk to young entrepreneurs and they're more obsessed with telling you what their growth is or or which venture capitalist

gave them money. I mean, even the way we've defined a unicorn, a unicorn used to be defined as a company with a billion dollars in revenues. Now, it's a company defined as the billion dollar

valuation. Valuations are made up.

valuation. Valuations are made up.

uh a billion, right? And somebody goes, "Yeah." And then there you go. You're a

"Yeah." And then there you go. You're a

unicorn right?

>> Revenue, you can actually count that money.

>> And so why did we change the definition of a of a unicorn? Because it's all speculative now, right? It's all

speculative. And so, you know, I think one of the So, it's not I think one of the reasons we see it's and again, it's risk profile. When

a venture capitalist is weighing the risk of their investment, they they would like to see something that's scalable with a with a fast growth thing because it protects their investment.

>> Yeah.

>> Um but that disallows for um it disallows for art projects and sometimes art projects are worth it and

beautiful and a lot of businesses started off more like an art project which was it was the curiosity of the founder to solve a problem. you know,

Richard Branson and Virgin just trying to make a thing that didn't exist for himself, >> you know?

>> True.

>> And like a lot of them, though, though they solve real problems, the the business model came a little bit later.

>> Wouldn't it be cool if is how a lot a lot of these great great great companies started. you know, even Facebook,

started. you know, even Facebook, wouldn't it be cool if versus, you know, I think I could make a billion with and again they have their place, but the

balance is wrong. Should don't you think it should be opposite because now there's more capital available. There

are more options for you to actually put out your work without the approval of some institution.

There are more opportunities for a young person like me or anyone who's watching that they can be more artistic, they can be more original

and yet they are choosing not to be original and not to be artistic. Why do

we why are we losing people like that?

Ask the algorithm.

I was I mean when you add money to an equation, it changes everything, right?

There was um this is a real case. There

was two young content makers who would do crazy videos cuz and they put them on YouTube and that was their income, YouTube, you know, dollars and

the they did a video where he held a dictionary, a big thick dictionary on his chest and she took out a gun and shot him thinking that the dictionary would stop the

bullet. It was a a stunt they did for

bullet. It was a a stunt they did for views. Well, turns out she killed him.

views. Well, turns out she killed him.

shot him right through the heart through the dictionary. Okay. And it it was it

the dictionary. Okay. And it it was it was an accident of monumentally stupid proportions, epic proportions because they were so driven by the need

to do something more and more outlandish for the views that logic was put aside. And so yeah, I was at an

event once. I was sitting waiting for a

event once. I was sitting waiting for a concert to start and this girl comes down the stairs and some guy is taking pictures of her and she's doing all her posing and the person next to me nudges

me and goes, "She's a famous influencer." And I responded cynically,

influencer." And I responded cynically, "You mean she's a freelance employee of an algorithm?"

an algorithm?" And that's largely what a lot of content creation is, is you're a freelance employee of an algorithm. You work for the algorithm, which is why you can't take a day off and you can't take a

vacation because if you do, the algorithm is not happy. My boss likes you to work all the time. And so, and if they you saw what happened with YouTube when they changed their algorithm and it

offended affected people's income, they showed up at the YouTube headquarters with a gun because you took away all my income. And so, we've just stopped

income. And so, we've just stopped working for people and started working for algorithms. And so, are you asking me, you know, shouldn't people make all their money? Shouldn't they, you know,

their money? Shouldn't they, you know, sort of make all their own content and be creative? Sure. But the minute you

be creative? Sure. But the minute you include money and the minute you're working for the algorithm, then then you're no longer working for the creativity anymore. You're working for

creativity anymore. You're working for the algorithm. I think the origin

the algorithm. I think the origin stories are a lot a lot of these are pure.

>> You know, it's like the first book, the first video, the first thing that goes viral, that was pure.

>> That was the art.

>> But the minute somebody says, "I'll put you on television. I'll give you money.

I'll give you a sponsorship." The

pressures are great. And we know this, the data shows this that influencers aren't actually that influential. You

know, the because once they start doing things for money, everybody gets a little bit cynical. They're just doing it for money, right?

>> Um but it's a it's a hustle culture, right? Even the concept of selling out,

right? Even the concept of selling out, young generations today, first of all, they don't even know what that means.

When you say, "Gh, he's such a sellout."

Like young people like literally don't know what that means. And if you explain, well, they decided to just take the money as opposed to have a high high integrity. And young people will say to

integrity. And young people will say to me, yeah, it's their IP. They should

make money. Like the idea of exploiting yourself at least is better than being exploited. Um, I'm exploiting myself for

exploited. Um, I'm exploiting myself for money. But it's not a very happy way to

money. But it's not a very happy way to live. I don't think at some point it all

live. I don't think at some point it all of these things have shelf lives.

>> Again, I think as an artist, and Rick Rubin talks about this, right? When you start working

for the approval of others, it destroys art. And art is when you trust your own taste and you accept the

risk that the world may or may not like this. And that's okay. And then you'll

this. And that's okay. And then you'll try again. But as long as you're pure to

try again. But as long as you're pure to yourself, if you have a talent or you have a taste, that's the root of art.

That's the risk. This is why art has a high risk profile.

>> Experience sellout. You said people don't understand. Explain in simple

don't understand. Explain in simple terms. Explain what? Sell out.

Okay, I'll just use myself as a as an example. So, I've built a public

example. So, I've built a public reputation, right? I have a public life

reputation, right? I have a public life now. I'm in the world. I have good

now. I'm in the world. I have good followings on all my socials and sell books and all of that good stuff. And

then all of a sudden, you see me making a commercial.

I'm on like a TV commercial for, you know, plumbing supplies and then I'm on another TV commercial selling you deodorant and then I'm and everybody's

looking going, "What? It Why is Simon selling plumbing supplies and deodorant?" Like, it makes no sense. And

deodorant?" Like, it makes no sense. And

you ask me, "Why'd you do it?" I'm like, "Well, you should see what they paid me." That's a sellout. You put aside

me." That's a sellout. You put aside your movement. You put aside your

your movement. You put aside your beliefs. You put aside your ethics and

beliefs. You put aside your ethics and you just take the paycheck. You exploit

the thing you've built for money.

That's selling out.

>> What has helped you stay like this? What

What helped you stay pure?

>> I'm not very good at business. Is that

obvious?

Oh, >> sure. That's not the only reason. I

>> sure. That's not the only reason. I

mean, it is one of the reasons. Um,

I think you know there have been certain people in my life that have inspired me and I I got to know people in the military pretty young like the same year that I

first publicly articulated the golden circle and start with why. many years

before a book, many years before any TED talk. That same year, by sheer

talk. That same year, by sheer coincidence, I got introduced to the the United States Air Force. And I got to know some people who devoted their lives

to service. And I very quickly realized

to service. And I very quickly realized that my two favorite people on the planet are military and artists because they're the exact same human being. We

assume that their politics are opposite because one is in defense and one is in the arts. First of all, don't make such

the arts. First of all, don't make such assumptions. People have different

assumptions. People have different politics in all different ways of life.

Okay, so that's number one. But they're

the exact same human being. Both of

them, whether they knew it from the beginning or they discovered it later on, what they do becomes a calling. They

can't not do it, right? Secondly, they

both know that they're not going to get rich doing what they're doing. They both

know that. They both make tremendous sacrifices to do what they do. And in

both cases, a 100% of the product that they make is for the benefit of others.

And you see the way that artists are with artists. And you see the way that

with artists. And you see the way that military with military and there's a brotherhood and a sisterhood. You know,

you and I have colleagues and co-workers in the military. They have brothers and sisters and they mean it. That's what

those relationships are. And the first time one of my friends in uniform called me brother, it meant something. Hey,

brother. Right. It wasn't just being polite.

>> Like they don't throw that term around loosely. I got to spend some time with

loosely. I got to spend some time with the Navy Seals and we we were talking about I wanted to understand the culture and why those guys are so intense and why they're so effective. And one of the reasons they're so effective is not

because they're individually amazing.

It's because they're it's their ability to work as a team. And you look at all the special operators, the Army Rangers, you know, Delta Force, you know, SEALs, you know, you know, the PJs, like all of

these the Marine Raiders, all of these special operators, right? One of the reasons that they're so incredible is because they're effective teams that they're able to put them their

individuality aside for the good of the team. And what we what we see as

team. And what we what we see as courage, and I can only speak to the Navy Seals, but I assume it's the same for all of them. What we see as courage is actually

them. What we see as courage is actually something quite more sophisticated and more beautiful, which is they're actually more afraid of letting down

their teammates than they are of dying.

They're more afraid of letting down the team >> than dying.

That's why they're so good. It's because

the commitment to the team and the success of the team. And if you look in the private sector, we're committed to ourselves and the success of me. And

very few of us will take a risk or have any desire for any kind of self-sacrifice for the good of the team.

And I saw these relationships and I envied them. I came from the corporate

envied them. I came from the corporate world and I had no relationships like that. I envied the brotherhood. They

that. I envied the brotherhood. They

don't even necessarily like each other, but they trust each other. And I envied that and I wanted that. And so some of them become became my friends and I

learned from them. And and and then we this takes us right back to the beginning, which is why are we so selfish?

>> Well, look at all the incentive structures. All the incentive structures

structures. All the incentive structures around us reward us for individuality.

We've heroized CEOs. We've heroized

personalities on the screen. We've

heroized um uh uh influencers. They're

all individuals who who either actually believe that they're heroes or like to present themselves as such. And the

reward structures reinforce it. We have

an entire class of people who want to be on reality TV shows. I mean, I was watching one of these reality TV shows the other day. My my niece was watching a show and I was just watching with her and the way they put their personal

lives on public display. There's cameras

in the room while they're like having a breakup or something or talking about cheating on their spouse. And you're

like, what motivates somebody to want to air all of their laundry in public? And

you're like, the driver is very simple.

Fame.

They value fame more than privacy, right? And I guess good for them. I

right? And I guess good for them. I

mean, it's highly entertaining for us, but that's the the incentive structure that we offer that we will make you rich and famous if you're willing

>> to humiliate your family.

Cuz I was thinking about it. It's like

the poor person who this woman was cheating on, he he's not on the TV show, but everybody else is watching who knows him.

>> Yeah. and his family didn't agree to be on the TV show and his friends didn't agree to be on the TV show. But her

desire to be rich and famous was more important than any of those things. And

that's the world we live in. And the TV studios don't care and the producers don't care cuz that's it. So whatever.

And I I was I remember I did an interview once. I was on a documentary

interview once. I was on a documentary and they gave me a a a release to sign, >> right? And it was a standard release for

>> right? And it was a standard release for a reality TV show. And it literally said, "We reserve the right to edit this

in any way we want, even if it changes the meaning of your words, even if it like it paints you in a bad light." And

I'm reading this document. I'm like

going through it and crossing everything out. And they they got mad at me.

out. And they they got mad at me.

They're like, "You can't cross all this out. Nobody else has crossed it out."

out. Nobody else has crossed it out."

I'm like, "Nobody else read it." Right?

But I'm literally reading the release that gives the producers total control how how to edit it. So they can decide you're going to be the the bad person.

We're going to edit it to so you're the bad person.

So the incentive structure all screwed up. The reward systems are all screwed

up. The reward systems are all screwed up.

>> And in the military the reward system is humility.

I'll give you a real life example.

So, there was an incident on base where uh some young officers went out drinking off base, which is fine.

And they were fratinizing with a young enlisted woman. And officers enlisted

enlisted woman. And officers enlisted aren't allowed to because it it breaks the the the chain of it's bad, right?

One of them was dating one of the officers was dating one of the enlisted, which is not allowed.

So, that was number one. They all came back to base and they knew that they were drinking and they were afraid that they would get pulled over for drunk driving on base. So the officers said to the young enlisted woman, "You drive."

So now there's a power dynamic. Okay? So

she drives, they start driving on base.

They get pulled over by the cops and she gets breathalyzed and she gets arrested for being over the limit. Okay?

It all comes out. What happens now?

They're these officers are in a very very elite program. a very elite program. And now they're all in trouble.

program. And now they're all in trouble.

>> Okay. For many reasons.

And their senior officer, the colonel, had had to bring them into his office one by one to tell them that they've probably ruined their careers, right?

That they have to be thrown out of the program.

Now, if you and I were in charge, we would probably say something like, "What the hell were you thinking? How can you be so stupid? You've destroyed your career. What were you thinking? You know

career. What were you thinking? You know

better. That's what we would say. It's

about the individual.

That's not what the colonel said. What

the colonel said was, "Do you have any idea how many people you've let down?

You've let down your senior officers who nominated you for this program. You've

let down your parents who raised you.

You've let down all of your colleagues who supported you through this program.

you've let me down. Do you have any idea how many people you've let down? That's

how they got in trouble. So immediately

you see the thing that they that they value more than anything else is the espreda core. It's the team. It's the

espreda core. It's the team. It's the

camaraderie. It's the commitment to the other, >> not just to yourself.

>> And so even the way they get in trouble reinforces the commitment to team.

I know, you know, they're so like humility is a is a is a valued commodity that when you meet the really really really really talented leaders in the military like they are amazing

and you say to them, "Oh my god, you're so amazing." They all say the same

so amazing." They all say the same thing. It's not just me. I've got a team

thing. It's not just me. I've got a team of people around me. In the business world, people are like, "Thank you.

Thanks." you know, we're encouraged to take the credit. We're in the military.

They're encouraged to to distribute the credit.

>> Do you think it's because earlier you had the whole map in front of you? Like you're born, then you got

of you? Like you're born, then you got to take the right job, then marry, then have a have a partner, have a wife, settle down. Like there was a structured

settle down. Like there was a structured way of doing things. You were not asking yourself question and not even getting disturbed here and there. Like there was always a map. And today there are no

maps. There's no certain way to do

maps. There's no certain way to do certain things. And that's why people

certain things. And that's why people are confused. So they don't have an

are confused. So they don't have an identity and they are just chasing things which probably were coming out of their insecurities. It's an interesting

their insecurities. It's an interesting question.

It's an interesting proposition.

I think it goes back to what we were saying a moment ago, which is it's about belonging, right? I'm not so sure

right? I'm not so sure that the map was clear, but there were definitely circumstances that allowed for the opportunity to belong to something bigger than yourself. So, in

World War II, more young men died by suicide who didn't get called to action than who did because the shame of not being included and belonging to the war

effort. And if you even look at the war

effort. And if you even look at the war effort, you either joined. And if you couldn't join or you weren't eligible to join or you were too old or something, then you bought war bonds to support the war effort. And if you couldn't afford a

war effort. And if you couldn't afford a war bond, you planted a war garden, which didn't do anything, but it made you feel like you were a part of it.

>> And so, you know, after September 11th, we saw lots of people quit their their jobs, be like, "My job is stupid." And

they joined the military. They did

something that made them feel like they're contributing to something bigger than themselves. So I'm not so sure that

than themselves. So I'm not so sure that I would subscribe to the fact that there was a path. I'm not sure I subscribe to that logic, but I do subscribe to the logic that there was something that pro

provided an opportunity to be a part of something. And so what you're describing

something. And so what you're describing as the path was a means to get to that thing.

And um and even in the 50s and 60s, you know, that was a family. That was the path to being part of something bigger than yourself. you sort of sort of the

than yourself. you sort of sort of the traditional home, you know, man goes to job, woman stays home and raises kids, you know, that there was there was there was a a mechanism to be a part of

something bigger than yourself that I have to work hard for the for the good of others, right?

And uh for various reasons that those things evaporated

even the the the collapse of the Soviet Union and and the end of Cold War 1.0 um cuz we're in Cold War 2.0 now but the end of Cold War 1.0 know at least if you

did something you felt like there was I was a even if I was part of this country I was a part of something bigger than myself you know and I think to your point it goes right back to where we were

where are the places or institutions that I can go to where I can feel like I I'm I get to contribute to something bigger than me because the only other alternative is to contribute to me which

is what we all seem to be doing and I think that's true I think there's a lack of belonging and and companies all have purpose statements. Thank goodness

that's a I mean that's my work. It's a

step in the right direction. But most of them don't believe it. It's just

marketing.

>> Yeah.

>> Um you know at least the movement is working that they have public pressure to do it. But now you have to actually follow it. And companies don't have

follow it. And companies don't have long-term plans now. They don't have 5-year plans and if they do they're not following them. And so there is no

following them. And so there is no bigger longer you know it's only shorter and faster. Um so I think that's true. I

and faster. Um so I think that's true. I

think what you're describing as the path I think is is a symptom of a lack of things or places or institutions we can go to where we feel like we're part of something bigger. I think that's a true

something bigger. I think that's a true statement >> and because of this then we join certain companies in the beginning because we are fresh we believe in the purpose that

probably is just on the wall and then just few days of working in probably few years of working in we have this some sort of quarter life crisis like at 25 we are thinking about a crisis because

we don't feel belonged we don't feel we're cherished we don't think our incentives are actually aligned with the company and more and more people Now midlife crisis have become quarterlife

crisis. So what do they do when the

crisis. So what do they do when the world is changing so fast and the meaning is just getting lost. So what

should young people do? I I think you have to choose to be the leader you wish you had which is remember we said at the beginning that trust was built not by asking for help by off but by offering it. So instead of going I need someone

it. So instead of going I need someone to give me the ability to belong to something bigger like if you can find that more power to you but that's not a strategy. Mhm.

strategy. Mhm.

>> What is a strategy is making the choice to give the people to the left of you and the people to the right of you the feeling that they're a part of something bigger. And even though you might work

bigger. And even though you might work for a soulless short-term driven public company, you can come to work and say that's true, but our team

our team it's about us. It's about

taking care of each other. It's about

committing to see each of us helping each of us grow. Because I think that's what a successful corporate culture is.

a group of people who agree to grow together and commit to making sure that the other people on my team are successful. And you can find a sense of

successful. And you can find a sense of belonging and that sense of purpose in a small group of people inside a larger dysfunctional system. Absolutely. But

dysfunctional system. Absolutely. But

you have to choose to be the leader you wish you had. And you have to go on that journey of education how to be that leader. Doesn't happen overnight. It's

leader. Doesn't happen overnight. It's

like I think I'm going to become a high performer swimmer.

>> Well, you can't just jump in the pool and it happens. like you have to train and learn and get a coach and read about it and watch videos and it's the same.

You got to go on a learning journey and um and it's bumpy and uncomfortable and sometimes you get you swallow water and you're humiliated and you know sometimes it goes well and sometimes it goes badly

but it's worth it you know when I get inspired by looking at these things and probably a lot of people do by hearing certain things like that I have an opportunity to inspire left right

belonging all of that and then I go home I sit on my phone and I swap and then I just keep looking at algorithm looking at somebody at 19 is like a billionaire

22 is doing this 25 is doing that and at 25 I already feel like I've left I'm left behind how do I get out of this feeling which is a feeling for majority of people that

they feel that they've left behind even before they've started you competing with who are you competing with I'm going to ask you a question I want you to ask me honestly is there somebody who does

something similar than you that has more money than you.

>> Yeah.

>> Okay. Is there somebody is are there other men about your age who are better looking than you?

>> Yes.

>> Okay. Um are there people who do podcasts like this one who have more followers?

>> Absolutely.

>> Okay. So, what's the problem? We've

accepted that you're not number one. Who

gives a Great. What do what what does number one mean? What does winning mean? You're playing the wrong game.

mean? You're playing the wrong game.

Like, so there's always somebody out there that you can always find who's better than you. It depends what metric you're looking at. So if I look

at book sales, I can show you an author who who blows me out of the water and I'll be like, "Oh my god, I'm a failure." But if I look at Instagram

failure." But if I look at Instagram following for the same person, oh my god, I'm destroying him. So should I be high and mighty on myself because one metric says I'm the Mac Daddy, or should

I be depressed because the other metric says I'm failing?

It depends where you look. What do you like? There's no winning. We haven't

like? There's no winning. We haven't

agreed on what the metrics are. You've

chosen one arbitrary metric and decided that you're a failure. It's ridiculous,

right? Worry about yourself.

Let them worry about themselves.

Like, we can all be successful at the same time. There's plenty of people to

same time. There's plenty of people to listen to podcasts. There's plenty of people to buy books. People can listen to more than one podcast. They can buy more than one book. There's no winning and losing in this game. And so when you set up a finite construction of a winner

or a loser in a game that has no winners and losers, you will always feel like you're failing. And if you are ahead for

you're failing. And if you are ahead for a minute, it's temporary. And then

you're playing defense and you're desperately afraid of losing it.

So you're playing the wrong game. It's

the wrong mindset. Nobody wins career.

Nobody wins business. Nobody wins

health. Nobody wins family. Nobody wins

health uh uh fitness doesn't exist.

There's no number one in any of those things. So, how can you set up the

things. So, how can you set up the construction of I'm losing or I'm behind in a game that we haven't all agreed what the rules are?

>> True. So,

worry about yourself. Say to yourself, am I doing better today than I did yesterday? Am I a better human being

yesterday? Am I a better human being today than I was yesterday? Am I a better leader today than I was yesterday? Am I making better content

yesterday? Am I making better content today than I was yesterday? Worry about

the race against yourself. Compete

against you. That's the best competitor.

That's the only success metric to look for >> in the infinite game. If you're playing cricket, then yeah, worry about beating the other team

>> because there's no definition out there.

It felt it feels like when I like when you speak to people who are my parents' generation, they all have like some sort of success definition which is like laid out. I

think the way that our parents defined it was get a good job, work hard, do well, provide for your family, make sure

that your kids are good and taken care of, make sure you're looking after your spouse.

>> We're good. I mean, you come from a place where arranged marriages were like I mean, still pretty popular, but for a long time like pretty much the only

thing. And arranged marriages have very

thing. And arranged marriages have very low divorce rates, which surprises people. It's cuz you're like, "Okay,

people. It's cuz you're like, "Okay, we're doing this. I'm going to I'm going to do the best I can." Which is a very selfless way of approaching a relationship, >> you know? Whereas the selfish ones like,

"Okay, are you good enough for me? I

chose you." you know uh yeah arranged marriages have lower divorce rates than than unarranged marriages which I find fascinating >> but it has to do a fact with that in a

lot of cultures in India specifically divorce is not even a thing so maybe it's not just aran marriages have le lesser divorce rate it also

means because for a long time there was nothing like divorce and even today the social structure doesn't allow you to get divorced very easily >> so look there's neither answer is 100% right like if is if something is really

unhappy and really dysfunctional, then there should be a mechanism to get out of it. Of course, right? Like we're not

of it. Of course, right? Like we're not saying unhappy people should stay together, but there is some sort of like let's work through this and see if we can get through it. I was just talking to a friend of mine yesterday who's

married and her marriage is going through it went through a really really rocky patch like through because of family reasons like he was not the person she married. It

was bad and she just committed to sticking with it and she just committed to trying to work through it. And now

they're really good. They're really

good. But she had to commit to have about a year or two years of awful, but she believed in him and she believed in the relationship.

And so there's a patience component as well that goes with it, right?

>> Yeah.

Um, I mean maybe maybe the correlary, you know, I hear this all the time in the military, you know, they don't get to pick their teams. It's like you're the leader of the team that they gave you.

>> Mhm.

>> Where in business we like we we we get to pick our teams, right? But maybe not picking your team is not so bad.

>> Yeah. When you look at America and when you look at India, America what I understand from the look of it at least >> is

>> more people are driven individually with their just thinking about themselves and taking decision based on what they would like or how they would see themselves winning or losing in the in the life

>> versus India you make a collective decision you almost you don't want to disappoint your family so you take their decision into consideration you want to disappoint the religion or the culture or the society

that you come from. You don't want to disappoint that. So every decision is

disappoint that. So every decision is not just yourself.

>> It's like you have to take decision which is combined. What do you think?

Which one's a better approach?

>> The answer is both have their strengths and both have their weaknesses. That's

it.

>> That's it. There there were there are benefits and detractors to both systems. So the question is is which system would you rather be a part of? So you either stay where you are or immigrate,

>> right? Like to idolize one system over

>> right? Like to idolize one system over another is foolish. That's like saying I'm a better person than you. Well,

that's ridiculous, right? I have some strengths and I I have some character. I

don't believe in strengths and weaknesses. I believe in characteristics

weaknesses. I believe in characteristics and attributes.

>> There's some ways I there are some talents I have, some gifts I have, some strengths I have. And every one of those things have benefits to me and they have uh detriments to me.

Right? And the opportunity I have is to put myself in situations where those characteristics and attributes are more likely to show up as strengths.

>> So for example, okay, I think out loud, right? So put me on a stage and people

right? So put me on a stage and people get to watch me think out loud. Put me

on a podcast and ask me a couple questions and you just wind up wind me up and off I go. H that shows up pretty well. Like this characteristic attribute

well. Like this characteristic attribute shows up as a strength in a context like this one. put me in a meeting. I talk

this one. put me in a meeting. I talk

too much. That's I always get that feedback. Simon, let other people talk

feedback. Simon, let other people talk in the meeting. But I'm just thinking, but I'm talking. And so, is it a strength or a weakness? The answer is depends on the context,

>> right? And so to say which system is

>> right? And so to say which system is better is is a fake question.

It's what are the benefits and and and and detriments of each system and where do I want to be? What where would I thrive? And that's why immigration and

thrive? And that's why immigration and immigration happens, right? Like if

you're very entrepreneurial and you're living in a society that's not entrepreneurial, then you should move somewhere that's entrepreneurial. You'll

fit in better. You'll feel like you belong. I found my people,

belong. I found my people, right? It's like New York City is the

right? It's like New York City is the island of misfit toys. Like everyone who doesn't feel like they belong wherever they grew up, they all feel like they belong in New York.

Um, so it's it's not a it's not a question of which one's better. It's a

question of where do you where do you belong?

>> You know, you you mentioned cold cold war 2.0.

>> Yeah.

>> What do you mean by that?

>> Well, the cold war uh cold war exists on three tensions.

There's an an existential tension like are we going to survive? Are we going to live or not? In the case of cold war 1.0, the two largest nuclear powers in the world were the United States and Soviet Union. Then there's a

Soviet Union. Then there's a philosophical tension. Uh there you have

philosophical tension. Uh there you have two philosoph uh two views of the world and they're both looking for for buyers for customers. Democracy and capitalism

for customers. Democracy and capitalism um versus Soviet style communism. Our

alliances were super simple back then.

If you're a communist, we're not friends with you. Tada. Right? So there's

with you. Tada. Right? So there's

philosophical competition, ideological competition, and then the final was economic competition. Um uh

both the United States and the Soviet Union were the two largest economies in the world. And so you'll find that

the world. And so you'll find that the desire to pay any price and bear any burden exists always on these three tensions. Life, philosophy, and

tensions. Life, philosophy, and economics. And they were all

economics. And they were all conveniently colllocated in a single nation called the Soviet Union. Well,

the Soviet Union went bankrupt. And the

biggest mistake that the United States and the West made of the 20th century was declare victory in a game that has no finish line. They said that we won the Cold War. No, we didn't. the player

dropped out of the game because they ran out of money, >> right? That's like one company goes

>> right? That's like one company goes bankrupt and the other company says, "We won." No, you didn't. Just they went out

won." No, you didn't. Just they went out of business and new players emerge to fill those tensions. So, the nuclear tension was replaced by North Korea,

maybe Iran, right? You've got India and Pakistan that are now nuclear armed, right?

um uh the the uh ideological competition uh for many years was replaced by religious extremism and now is morphing into something else. And the uh economic

tension was replaced by China. Like we

don't fear nuclear war with China, at least not yet, right? And so the cold war, the tensions of the cold war are alive and well. They're just not conveniently colloccated in a single nation. And so, at least in the United

nation. And so, at least in the United States, we are oblivious to the fact that we're still in a cold war because we can't see quote unquote the enemy. We

don't recognize that it's distributed.

>> So, yeah, Cold War as what always happens in Infinite Game, which is the players come and go, but the nature of the game will change. So, the nature of the game has changed, but all the basis, all the foundations are still there.

>> But last Cold War changed some sort of world order. Do you think now the change

world order. Do you think now the change of world order is in place? It's it's

going to happen.

>> Not yet. Not yet.

>> Not yet.

>> No. still in a period of flux.

Fascinated by the the way the world works. I think that's so cool.

works. I think that's so cool.

>> I think problems where there's no such thing as a right answer are very interesting to me. You know, problems where there's no obvious solution and that no one person can conceive of the problem because it's too complex or even

come up with an answer. Those are

really, really, really cool. So, you

know, states of the world and how nation states interact and that stuff fascinates me.

>> I love I love reading change of world order.

>> Yeah. Yeah. It's good stuff. especially

and specifically because India has had the neutrality of it. So I love reading more about it.

>> I mean I think the future of India is fascinating you know just the size of the population and and the entrepreneurship and ingenuity in that country and it's just it's a fascinating place.

>> What was the experience like Dhari?

>> I mean it's a fascinating place. Uh-huh.

>> I thought the amount of the entrepreneurship there was incredible unlike everywhere else that the other places I I >> And what do you mean by entrepreneurship? Like

entrepreneurship? Like >> well you know in in if India I mean the Brits were in India for

what 300 years and so the the Brits used the Indians as their clerks. So you can see how that >> you know the the industries that India still dominates

>> customer service, back office, accounting, it's kind of like clerk and every you know you know better than I do like kids are told keep your head down, do as you're told, work hard, you'll do fine.

>> Mhm.

>> But in Daravee it's different because there's there's so much entrepreneurship because if you come from the farm and you move to the city to make money for your family, like if you don't work, you die.

And so everybody's a hustler.

>> Yeah.

>> And there's factories and there's offices and I mean not offices, companies and you go to the garbage and you take out all the plastic and then you sell it to somebody and then they take it and they organize it and they sell it. And I was I thought it was

sell it. And I was I thought it was amazing. It's a different kind of India

amazing. It's a different kind of India get wrong >> about India.

>> Uh what can India get wrong for India?

>> That's a great question.

I think the question is is like what does it mean to be Indian?

Like what is your identity? What are

your strengths as a nation? Right? If

you like compare different nations, you can see the mentality of the people in their in their economies, right? Like

the Swiss, everything is exact.

>> But things are slow and expensive too because everything's exact. Or the

Germans, not a lot of joy in their businesses. My my goodness, everything

businesses. My my goodness, everything works perfectly. The engineering, you

works perfectly. The engineering, you know, it's not just a trope. It's it's

real. And you look at the Italians, it's all joy. Like everything's beautiful in

all joy. Like everything's beautiful in design. Doesn't always work, but my

design. Doesn't always work, but my goodness, they have fun. And and you can and there's a devivve, you know, and you can look at the you can look at this mentality of a people when you look at

the the economies that they that they uh dominate or the reason one you choose one product over another from one nation or another. Um, and I think the question

or another. Um, and I think the question I would ask India is who are you? Like

what is your identity? What what is it when when everything works at its natural best, how do you show up then do

that and be that in the world? Uh cuz I think people when I look at other nations, people have over glamorized America, right? Because America is very

America, right? Because America is very very rich.

>> A lot of nations copy the way we do business. But the way we do business

business. But the way we do business hasn't it's not the best way. But you

see other nations trying to build their economies to emulate America's because America's rich. But it comes at a cost

America's rich. But it comes at a cost again, right? And I think there's some

again, right? And I think there's some things that I would like to go backwards the way we do things in America. Like

let's be more long-term focused. Let's

me let's make sure we take care of our people more than we do. Like we've made some mistakes in order to make money, but the cost was high to our society and to the level of trust we have for each other,

>> right? So I would caution other nations

>> right? So I would caution other nations to blindly copy America's business model.

>> You know what I love about India? It's

we always there to serve. That's almost

in us like over the years, over the decades, we've been there.

>> Yeah.

>> We say we are your friend, we are your friend.

>> Yeah.

>> In our companies and organizations, we love serving.

>> Yeah.

>> And that's what we're doing in the world as well. And that's why I think you see

as well. And that's why I think you see the rise of Indian talent all around the world because we >> look at all the tech companies right now the American tech companies the number of them that are run by Indians is

pretty amazing right >> um uh yeah I mean again I think that should be a national that should be a national narrative and I think a lot of nations

don't have a national narrative >> uh America had a clearer narrative when there was a Soviet Union but our narrative has been a bit fuzzy for many decades >> we have we have a narrative which is

world friend. We our our leaders keep

world friend. We our our leaders keep saying this again and again and we sort of believe it.

>> It's nice.

>> That's good.

>> We are we are the world's friend because if everybody comes together, everybody grows.

>> Yeah.

>> We don't have to choose sides. Yeah.

>> And that's what we keep doing and showing again and again. Okay. Coming

back to the conversation that we were having about young people and quarter life crisis and stuff like that.

You know what? One thing which I just have an anecdotal evidence around it because I speak to a lot of my employees, a lot of my team members, a

lot of my friends and I feel like almost everybody somewhat feels like they're not doing enough or they are in some sort of race that we already discussed

and because of that they are losing respect for themselves.

Do you think that somebody can come back from becoming someone you don't respect?

>> Again, it's about changing the definition of the game like I think a gap year is one of the best things that >> the Europeans ever invented, >> right? And I talk to American kids when

>> right? And I talk to American kids when they're graduating high school or college. And I say, why don't you take a

college. And I say, why don't you take a gap year? you know, go get a job or if

gap year? you know, go get a job or if you have the means, travel, you know, or go do something that doesn't matter to your career, just go do something like go go get an internship, you know, and

they all say the same thing to me. I

can't. Why not? Cuz I'll be behind cuz they'll see their friends getting jobs and then their friends will have a promotion before them and they'll feel like they're quote unquote behind.

But it goes back to our lumberjack story.

go and sharpen your axe and you'll be amazed how much quicker your career. So,

so yes, it goes like this and then you're going to go like this and then it goes like this, you know, and you sort of you race ahead later because you have a different experience and a different skill set and a different view of the game.

>> But when they say I'm behind again, it goes behind what you're not competing against your friends you went to school with. Yeah,

with. Yeah, >> that is a bad a bad construction that that your selfworth comes on how far ahead or behind you are somebody else who's living their own life and playing

their own you know building their own career. There is no ahead and behind.

career. There is no ahead and behind.

It's just you. It's just you.

>> It's what kind of life do you want to live.

>> It's just you.

>> It's a hard thing for young people to comprehend.

>> But a lot of times we mask it by saying that this is what I want.

this is what I think I want. Yeah, this

is what everybody else wants for me.

>> How how can you differentiate between this is what I really want or this is something coming out of maybe insecurities, maybe uh comparison.

>> Well, you can be accountable to yourself if I'm really really really honest with myself. I'm only doing this for other

myself. I'm only doing this for other people or I'm doing this for public approval. I'm doing this so people will

approval. I'm doing this so people will like me. I'm doing this because I'm

like me. I'm doing this because I'm confused. I'm doing this because I don't

confused. I'm doing this because I don't know it. I'm doing this because I don't

know it. I'm doing this because I don't have a clue. I'm doing this because I want to show my best friend that I'm better than he is.

Just be honest.

>> That's it. It's

>> it doesn't mean you have to change your behavior overnight, but just be honest.

>> Is it new?

>> Yeah. And let and give yourself grace, right? It's okay to be all of those

right? It's okay to be all of those things >> and then smile. Be like, "Yeah, I'm just, you know, don't be depressed about it. Just like, yeah, I did that.

it. Just like, yeah, I did that.

>> Whoops."

I think when you take the pressure off, it's like when you make the implicit explicit, it relieves tension. So when

there's tension in a relationship and both of you are just living in tension and one of you just says, "We're not getting along. This is not fun."

getting along. This is not fun."

And it's not for me. I can't imagine it is for you.

It relieves the tension when you make the implicit explicit. It doesn't mean there's an instant resolution, but it does relieve tension. And you can do it for yourself, too. Why do you think

it has become a coping mechanism for a lot of us, a lot of young people to just co-chase this or do like just get in this race and like be

ambitious, achieve all of these things, then to sit down and be like, hey, I don't have my life sorted and maybe I'm just running away from problems by naming it ambition.

Do you think it is a coping mechanism for a lot of people that they escape? I

mean people deal with stress in different ways. Some people disappear

different ways. Some people disappear and some people double down on work.

Look it depends on the society you come to come from with right come from which is you know in the United States where I

live it's a very materialistic society.

It's very much about individual performance and so conspicuous displays of success and wealth are a mechanism for respect.

Um um that doesn't necessarily lead to joy or happiness or belonging but it's it's the

it's the metric we have. You know, in other societies, contribution to the family, contribution to the team, contribution to the community are valued

more than individual success.

And so failing the the shame they get is not being rich or famous. The shame they get is not giving to the family.

>> Yeah.

>> So, you know, the different different places have different metrics. Um, and

you can't drop out of society. You know,

there's still the pressures obviously from our society, but at the same time, and it goes back to what we were saying before, the Rick Rubin living like an artist, you know, which is, is this

right for me? Is this what I want?

And it's okay not to know. And it's okay to experiment and try a few things.

>> Because, you know, this is what an infinite mindset is, which is good news, bad news, who knows?

>> Yeah.

>> You know, and I the way I describe the infinite mindset, it's based on this Chinese parable. The best way to

Chinese parable. The best way to understand it is from this Chinese parable. You know, a young man is born

parable. You know, a young man is born with an amazing ability for horse riding. And everybody in the village

riding. And everybody in the village says, "Oh, you're so lucky." And the monk says, "We'll see." And then he falls off his horse and breaks his leg and his career is over. And everybody in the village says, "Oh, you're so

unlucky." And the monk says, "We'll

unlucky." And the monk says, "We'll see." And then war breaks out and all

see." And then war breaks out and all the young men are sent to battle, but he can't go because of his broken leg. And

everybody in the village says, "Oh my god, you're so lucky." And the monk says, "We'll see." like good news, bad news, who knows? And so when we take a diversion or we experiment or we try

something, you're not falling behind.

It's just a different lesson. Good news,

bad news, who knows? You know, and you talk to any successful person on the planet, regardless of how you want to define success. They don't learn lessons

define success. They don't learn lessons when things go well. They learn lessons when things go badly. And every time things go wrong and they work their way through it or get their way through it, it makes them stronger, smarter, fitter, better.

>> And so, you can't live a life without diversity uh adversity. You can't live a life without adversity.

Um uh the question is how do you manage that adversity? Do you learn from that

that adversity? Do you learn from that adversity? Do you learn from the

adversity? Do you learn from the struggle? Do you ask for help in those

struggle? Do you ask for help in those struggles? Are you learning to be a

struggles? Are you learning to be a better human being in those struggles?

Are you just running away and hiding?

And I'm not saying it's easy. It is not easy.

>> Yeah.

>> Um it is simple, but it is not easy. And

so you're asking me questions about the the length of a life, but you're asking me the questions based on like in individual episodes. And the answer is I

individual episodes. And the answer is I don't know. You know, life is a journey.

don't know. You know, life is a journey.

That's what it is. I know it's so sort of overstated, right?

And it and the older you get, I know I'm I'm like that person now. when I was your age. Um,

your age. Um, I think the the value of being young in a career is the stakes are low.

You're not going to destroy the company with whatever decision you're going to make. You don't you probably don't have

make. You don't you probably don't have a family yet. You don't have a lot of responsibility. Your bills aren't that

responsibility. Your bills aren't that high.

Like, you can screw up.

Not much is going to happen.

>> Yeah. And so I always recommend to young people to treat their early career like they're still in university, like this is your graduate degree on figuring stuff out. And so show up like a

stuff out. And so show up like a student. Don't pretend you're an expert.

student. Don't pretend you're an expert.

Show up like a student. Ask for help. Do

a little research on the side. Ask for

extra credit if you can do extra stuff here and there. Ask tons of questions.

Admit you don't know. You know, that will do more for you in when you're young.

to treat your job like a like a a class on how to do things and how not to do things. Pay attention to the leaders.

things. Pay attention to the leaders.

Pay attention to the leaders who who command respect and love and loyalty.

Pay attention to the leaders who may be high performers but nobody likes them and nobody respects them and nobody would follow them. Pay attention and then start asking yourself who do I want to be like? You know, start looking at

the leaders you're like, I want to be like that person, >> you know.

Um, ask for mentors. Look for mentors.

One of the biggest mistakes young people make when they find an early job is they take the job that's either the most famous company with the most the flashiest brand or they take the biggest salary. When I the one thing I got

salary. When I the one thing I got right, I made so many mistakes when I was young, but the one thing I say I I think I got right is when I was starting my career, I was interviewing with human resources and they'd say, "What are you

looking for?" And it'd always say the

looking for?" And it'd always say the same thing. What I'm looking for might

same thing. What I'm looking for might be like looking for love, but I'm looking for a mentor. And I chose jobs based on who I would work for, not based on how much money they would pay me or

what fancy brand or account it would be.

And so what I ended up what I ended up getting was making less money than some of my friends, working on things that people like, why'd you take that job?

But what I had that my friends didn't get, I had people who I loved working for, who taught me things, who had patience with me when I screwed up. I

had mentors. I And you know why I had them? Cuz I looked for them. I took jobs

them? Cuz I looked for them. I took jobs for them. I want to work for that person

for them. I want to work for that person even though this company offers me more money. And I see most young people, they

money. And I see most young people, they they're seduced by the early paychecks and they're seduced by the the flashiness of telling their friends that I work for this company, but then you go work for an ogre

>> and you'll hate your job anyway and the money won't feel worth it. What I said when I was say looking for a mentor is like looking for love, which is it's hard to find, right? And you have to go on a lot of dates.

>> Yeah. You know,

>> unless it's an arranged marriage, in which case you get one shot and then you just work really, really hard. Um um

that's what I meant. I meant that it's maybe I'm being idealistic and stupid, >> but I want to work for somebody that I really, really, really love.

>> Let's say someone's young watching this right now and they're >> they're really ambitious.

>> Yeah.

>> Do you think that love and ambition can go hand in hand or one has to be compromised?

>> Yeah, I think they go hand in hand. I

think if if you want to accomplish anything in this world, you better have at least one person in your life who supports you and loves you. But a lot of people don't put a lot of attention in their love life because they're too busy

building or too focused on building what they want to build.

>> I think that personal life and professional life are inversely proportionate. You know, when one goes

proportionate. You know, when one goes up, the other one seems to go down. Um,

>> yeah. I mean, it's a it's a question of time and attention, right?

>> Like the plant that will grow is the one you water. So, if all you're doing is

water. So, if all you're doing is watering your career and you're not watering your relationships, then the career will grow and the relationships will will wither and die,

you know. Um,

you know. Um, so I think it's a balancing act and I think it's hard and that's why I say to have a wonderful partner probably helps

your career and to have wonderful colleagues probably helps your relationship. Yeah.

relationship. Yeah.

>> If you say to your friends, do you mind if I take >> if I leave early today? it's my my partner's birthday and I want to do

something special and your friends go go we'll get you covered today you know so

it's people looking after people so it's like in society success fame ambition is applauded more than a good relationship

why do you think that hap that's happening more and more now >> it's the reward structure good relationship is not rewarding No, no, no, no. It's it's the things that get

no, no. It's it's the things that get attention and get rewarded. So, it was society would say, "Good job. You found

somebody to fall in love with." And it was considered a valuable thing.

>> Do you think we consider that as a valuable thing anymore?

>> I mean, there's a whole economy to help people find love, isn't there?

>> That that runs on for you to not find love more.

>> I mean, that's true. Um, look, cultures wax and wayne. They're living breathing animals and tastes change and cultures change and politics change and what's

considered good or bad changes with time. I mean again culture is a living

time. I mean again culture is a living breathing animal. And so I don't like

breathing animal. And so I don't like any of these binary constructions. You

know is this one better than that one?

It depends on what kind of life you want to live. Just be honest about it. I have

to live. Just be honest about it. I have

chosen this path at this sacrifice. I

mean, when I was young in my career, I the way to spread a message, it was pre-social media. The way to spread a

pre-social media. The way to spread a message was to speak publicly. That was

the way you spread a message. And I was on the road so much that I was basically undatable cuz I was just always traveling. But I did it with eyes wide

traveling. But I did it with eyes wide open. I knew exactly the compromise I

open. I knew exactly the compromise I was making. And to me, it was worth it

was making. And to me, it was worth it for a period of time until I decided it wasn't worth it. And then I and I had a long-term plan that I would do it until it had its own momentum and then I would

change my priorities, but I did it with eyes wide open. So I didn't ever complain about it. I mean, I probably did. But uh the point is I even though I

did. But uh the point is I even though I might have complained about it, I knew what I was doing.

>> And so again, I think of everything in terms of cost. Everything comes at a cost. You want to be you want to make a

cost. You want to be you want to make a ton of money and be rich and famous, it comes at a cost. You want to prioritize your health and your joy, it comes at a cost. you want to be obsessed with

cost. you want to be obsessed with taking care of other people, it comes at a cost. Like you have to just weigh the

a cost. Like you have to just weigh the costs. And like when people say you

costs. And like when people say you should never quit, you know, like or you should know when to quit. Well, which

which one of those is true? And I

believe that you should know when to quit. And the way the time to know when

quit. And the way the time to know when to quit is when the cost is no longer worth it. The cost becomes too high. But

worth it. The cost becomes too high. But

for every decision we make, every single decision we make personally or professionally, it has a cost. Just be

aware of what the costs are and be okay with those costs. And the minute that those costs are no longer worth it, then you have to change paths or change directions.

>> You know, you're talking about cost.

Think about Gen Z at this point.

>> Gen Z have started thinking about cost so much that they've almost started avoiding hard conversations. They've

become like conflict avoidance and they just quit and then move on to the next thing.

>> Yeah. Discomfort. Yeah. They don't like discomfort. So, how can they build real

discomfort. So, how can they build real >> cost of starting a new job is better than being uncomfortable? Yes. So, how

do you think they can start building the real intimacy when they avoid conflict so much?

>> Goes back to everything we were saying up until now, >> which is it's it's um recognizing that you're not the only person in the world.

It's recognizing that you have accountability, >> right? Like you are part of these

>> right? Like you are part of these equations. You're not always a victim,

equations. You're not always a victim, >> right? That you play a role. You play

>> right? That you play a role. You play

you have a part here. that there's some benefit to learning the skills of human interaction and human uh confrontation that will benefit you personally, professionally for the rest of your life. And basically what you're doing is

life. And basically what you're doing is skipping school. And that's what I said

skipping school. And that's what I said before, which is treat your early life and treat treat your early job like it's a graduate degree. And if you choose not to show up to class, it's a difficult class day. I'm just going to drop out of

class day. I'm just going to drop out of school. That's what you're telling me.

school. That's what you're telling me.

You're like, today the homework's too hard. I'm just going to drop out.

hard. I'm just going to drop out.

>> But that's what more more and more young people are doing now. But it's it's and I think it goes to the lack of accountability to to the team to the group. Goes back to the selfish behavior

group. Goes back to the selfish behavior which is it's totally fine for me to leave. It's my life. I don't care. It's

leave. It's my life. I don't care. It's

like but hold on. You're letting people down. It's not just about you.

down. It's not just about you.

Maybe this is good for you. Maybe a

little tension is you'll teach you, you know, a little bit of grit. Build, you

know, build up a muscle, you know. Um

and and it's and And I learned this the hard way, but you never want to make decisions out of fear. You want to make decisions out of

fear. You want to make decisions out of opportunity. You want to run towards

opportunity. You want to run towards things, not away from things. You know,

the best second job to take is something that's more inspiring than the first one, not less painful than the first one, cuz then you'll just take whatever job is not this one, which is not

necessarily the right next thing to do.

So those are deeper philosophical questions for they'll learn eventually.

But then there's AI, right? Where you

feel like you're avoiding conflict and the other person doesn't understand you.

Then you go to AI and then that understands you and somehow you feel like you just have this only one friend.

Do you think it's in temporarily being lonely is better or when you have nobody AI talking to AI and making AI your friend is better?

>> It's a binary construction.

It's AI has some benefits, but I would be worried if AI was the only friend that somebody had. Like I

know a guy who had a long intense relationship with an AI bot, but he also had regular friends, too. He was very healthy, you know, and it's a really intense relationship he had with his AI

friend, but it wasn't his only friend.

So, there was balance. So, when you say if it's if if AI is your only friend, we probably have a problem.

>> Mhm. If AI is involved in your life and you seek some sort of validation from AI, as long as it's a healthy amount, it's like video games are fine, social media is fine, cell phones are fine,

alcohol is fine, like gambling is fine when you moderate.

>> If all you do is gamble and all you do is drink and all you do is social media, then we have a problem. Too much of anything, too much water is bad for you, >> right? Like, so the question isn't right

>> right? Like, so the question isn't right or wrong or good or bad. The question is moderation. And are the systems set up

moderation. And are the systems set up to help us moderate? And the answer is clearly not.

>> Then what happens? Because AI doesn't disagree. AI never needs more time.

disagree. AI never needs more time.

>> It's an affirmation machine.

>> Exactly. So it never requires compromise. It never requires time. It

compromise. It never requires time. It

never requires >> Yeah.

>> It's the friend It's the friend that's always nice. It's the friend that's

always nice. It's the friend that's always available.

>> So what does it do to an individual when you have just a friend which is frictionless?

>> It gives you a full sense of how easy life is or a full sense of how great you are. Did you see the movie Her?

>> No, not yet.

>> I don't want to ruin it for you.

>> No. Go ahead. Tell me. Well, I'm going to ruin it for lots of people, though.

>> Okay. If you haven't seen the movie Her and you really really want to, turn off now cuz I'm going to spoil the movie.

>> Okay.

>> Um, so in the movie Her, he has a rel a very intimate relationship with an AI bot.

>> I mean, it's the perfect relationship.

He's madly in love with her, right? And

then he discovers, spoiler alert, it's about to happen. He discovers that she's having an intimate relationship with millions of people simultaneously. And

he's so upset cuz he thought he was special. And she says, "No, I can have

special. And she says, "No, I can have relationships with millions of people.

You're not the only one, but as human beings, we want to be the only one. We

think we're the only one." And so, it's this crazy film where this relationship is so intense until he realizes he's not special.

>> And at the end of the day, what makes a relationship amazing is that we know that we're special. And AI bots will make us feel like we're special, but at the same time, they're doing it for millions of people simultaneously.

>> Yeah.

I'd rather have I personally would rather have somebody who makes me feel that I'm special to them.

>> But it's getting more difficult and difficult.

>> Yeah, it comes at a cost. Everything

comes at a cost. I don't always know what the costs are. There's a cost for everything.

>> You've worked very hard in your life.

You've paid a cost with wide eyes open.

Let's say you've paid a price.

>> Yeah.

>> And knowing what you were doing.

>> Yeah.

>> Do you think at You're 51 now?

>> 52.

>> 52. Do you think it was all worth it or would you change something about >> I mean I have a couple of regrets and it's mainly mainly the couple of regrets I have is advice I took from people that I knew I shouldn't have taken and people I trusted that I knew I shouldn't have

trusted and I should have trust my trusted my gut but I felt intimidated because they were more successful or you know than me and thought they knew more

but I I I did what they suggested rather than trusting myself but yeah why would I it's lighting doors I I don't know if I changed something, I wouldn't be where I am or who I am

today.

>> So, I can't make the choice of what I would or wouldn't have changed. It's

like the the horsemen, you know, good news, bad news, who knows?

>> Who knows?

>> You know, would I have liked to have removed some of the pain? Of course. But

the lessons that I learned and the relationships that I built in those pain, were they worth it? Yeah.

>> So, no, I wouldn't change anything.

>> Nothing.

>> Just one or two things.

>> Okay. I would like I told you there's a couple of pieces of advice that I wouldn't have followed and a couple of people that I would have um ended those relationships.

>> What's one advice you wouldn't follow and you don't want anyone to follow?

>> I mean I think the any advice remember we're both individuals and and members of groups all the time. Being human is is living in paradox. I'm both me and

I'm a member of a team or church uh a a sports team. Like I have responsibility

sports team. Like I have responsibility to others and I have to look after myself and I have to balance those. And

every day is a paradox cuz I'm going to let somebody down. Either I'm going to let myself down or I'm going to let them down. Take a choice.

down. Take a choice.

>> And the answer is you don't get to choose. It's both. It's a difficult It's

choose. It's both. It's a difficult It's a paradox. And any advice that says

a paradox. And any advice that says always prioritize the group or any advice that says always prioritize yourself, that is flatout wrong. And I'm

watching a friend of mine right now who's in a very senior important job and he's so driven by duty and his people that he is exhausted. He's exhausted. I

talk to him and he's got he's exhausted.

He can talk on the phone for 2 minutes and he's just exhausted all the time and I need him to like say no to something for himself and he feels bad because he wants to be there for his people. And

I'm like, "Dude, you were letting your people down by being this tired.

Stay home and watch TV.

>> Stay home and just do nothing. you you

introduce yourself as an optimist, >> right? And there was there was a quote I

>> right? And there was there was a quote I was reading that >> only optimists commit suicide. Optimist

who no longer succeed at being optimist.

>> So what do you do when you run out of hope? Hope doesn't it's it's it's I'm

hope? Hope doesn't it's it's it's I'm optim optimism is the the undying belief that the future is bright and I believe even through adversity it will get better at some point. Of course I have days where I'm like I hate this. I don't

want to do this. What's the point? Of

course I do.

And I either recognize that I'm tired because I know fatigue is a is a problem like for optimism. So if I'm like, "You're just tired. You're just tired.

Just get a good night's sleep. You'll be

okay." Almost always that helps. Um or I call somebody and be like, "I can't do this anymore." And then if they're good,

this anymore." And then if they're good, they just let me vent and come to my own conclusion.

But yeah, no, of of course I have doubt.

And of course I want to quit. Of course,

it's called being human. Of course, but at the end of the day, I don't let I don't make a decision in those moments, you know, huge lifelong decisions should you you take time to make those

decisions and then you realize, oh, I just had a bad day, >> you know, but of course there are moments where I I want to throw the whole throw it all out. Of course,

>> you said good friends that you went What do friends do?

>> Try and fix everything.

>> Not bad, just they're not bad friends.

Just the the skill you need in those moments is the funny thing about human beings is we know what we need. You can

just ask for it. So when a friend starts to fix things when all you want them to do is listen. You can say, "Can you just not fix something? Can you just listen?"

>> Yeah.

>> And people are like, "All right. All

right.

>> Thank you so much.

>> Thanks for having me.

>> Thank you for having this converation."

>> How are you?

>> There you go. Thank you so much. You're

very welcome. Thanks very much. I don't

know how to put this excitement into intro like it's just it's the Simon like you don't get it like like when I was a

when I started learning about world or personal growth leadership how to build business like whatever the purpose like purpose all

these conversation the first time I heard these words it was Since that time it was a man who was relevant in my life

and like I've been following him since then and every 1 year or 2 years he will come up with some new concept some new theory articulated so well and it'll have an impact on your life and you will

change the course of your life or will try to get deeper just because he said something like he's that so gravity of his thoughts and he has

given at least the modern generation he's given this concept of why instead of doing what you you start with like

purpose mimon like I don't know how to leadership m simon thank you so much for watching this podcast till the end please let us know in the comments what

all did we do right so that we can improve and keep doing that better and what all did we do wrong so that we never repeat it and at the same time please give us suggestions of who's the next guest that you want to see on the

podcast and Don't forget to share this episode with at least one person who will get some insights because one conversation is enough to give people enough ideas to change their lives. I'll

see you next time. Until then, keep figuring out and also don't forget to subscribe the channel.