Skye Perryman on How to Save Democracy | The Better Good Podcast with Scott M. Curran

There are only two ways to run the world. [music] Guns or lawyers. That's

world. [music] Guns or lawyers. That's

it. It's either the threat of force or the rule of law. Everything we call civil society, from the contracts that govern businesses [music] to rights that protect our privacy and freedom itself,

depend on the second path. And lawyers

are the custodians of that path, the stewards of the rule of law. [music] But

we too often forget this. We joke about lawyers. We say things like, "Everyone

lawyers. We say things like, "Everyone hates a lawyer until they need one." But

the truth is, we love [music] lawyers because 24/7, 365, whether we see them or not, they hold the line between order and chaos, between civilization and

something [music] far darker. The famous

line from Shakespeare that the first thing we do is kill all the lawyers is usually a punchline, but it wasn't actually an insult at all. It was an inadvertent compliment [music] spoken by

a character who was part of a violent rebellion that wanted to create anarchy.

[music] So the first thing they wanted to do was get rid of all the lawyers. Lawyers

protect civil society so that each of us can achieve our version of life, liberty, [music] and the pursuit of happiness. In the law school class I

happiness. In the law school class I teach, I remind students that inspiring figures like Abraham Lincoln, Mahatma Gandhi, and Nelson Mandela were all

[music] lawyers. An inspiring fact far

[music] lawyers. An inspiring fact far too few people know. I ask students to think about the lawyers who inspire them. Today's guest is one [music] who

them. Today's guest is one [music] who inspires me.

Welcome to Better Good, the show where you learn how the best in the world do good and how you can [music] too. I'm

your host, Scott Curran. For 25 years, I've served as a corporate lawyer, an in-house general counsel, and an adviser to some of the most extraordinary social impact work spanning the private sector,

philanthropy, and social enterprises. On

this podcast, I talk to the innovators reimagining how the world does good, bringing you candid and inspiring conversations and practical advice, guidance, and tools you can use in [music] your life and work. If doing

good is something you care about, you're in the right place, because the world's biggest problems won't wait, and neither should you. My guest today is Sky

should you. My guest today is Sky Perryman, the president and CEO of Democracy Forward, [music] one of the most consequential legal organizations of our time. She leads a team of litigators and strategists that is

defending fundamental rights, good governance, and the core promise that government should [music] work for all the people it serves. She's a nationally recognized lawyer and civic leader.

She's helped drive major legal winds that protect healthc care access, defense civil rights, and hold the government accountable. It's both

government accountable. It's both obvious and an understatement that Sky is extremely busy these days. This

episode is for every American who cares about living in a civil society governed [music] fairly by the rule of law. Is

for those who understand that protecting democracy is never [music] partisan, but is in fact a conditioned precedent to enjoying the freedom of having partisan [music] differences in the first place. This

episode is also especially [music] for every lawyer, every law firm leader, and every law student who has ever wondered whether the work they do matters.

Spoiler [music] alert, it matters a lot.

And now more than ever, this is Better Good, and here is my conversation with Sky Perryman.

Sky Perryman, thank you for joining me on Better Good.

>> Thanks for having me. I am uh so grateful to know you and to know of and about your work and I would actually love it if amidst everything that we know about you and your work because I see you on the news all the time and I

love it. I see you in in print press and

love it. I see you in in print press and all press but I I haven't heard this part of your story and I wonder if you would share it with us. If you were to think back to the earliest part of your

life where you first realized that doing good was something that people could do and maybe something that you could do.

I'm curious to know what that memory was for you.

>> I was really fortunate. I grew up in Texas uh with a great family and with grandparents that um did not have much uh as they were growing up. They were

kids of the Great Depression. Uh, and as they, uh, aged and, uh, you know, worked hard, um, they ended up, uh, having a little bit more than they needed. Uh, my

mother's parents lived on a farm in a very small town outside of Houston, Texas with land, and they would always be, uh, growing something and giving it to the community. they would always be

finding ways that they could use um uh the land that they had to to help community events or to help people in in some instances that needed shelter. Uh

and so I remember those early memories with my grandparents really seeing how they did good in their small community and how it could make a really big

difference. That was one memory. And

difference. That was one memory. And

then another memory early on is I was born in the early 80s in Texas and that was just it was just about 20 years um after the passage of landmark civil

rights legislation. And so these fights

rights legislation. And so these fights in the south and in places like Texas around civil rights and justice, they were still really fresh fights. And I

was able and really fortunate to grow up in a community where I got to meet a lot of people who really did the work to help fight in places across the South

and in Texas for civil rights and understanding that they were in many instances ordinary people, but they did really extraordinary things um in dedicating themselves to a cause. And so

I think the combination of uh you know seeing how my grandparents engaged in a small town on their farm and uh really understanding how some of the civil rights leaders in Texas and community

members really made a difference. I

think probably were some of my earliest memories.

>> I love that. Thank you for sharing it.

Um do help me with a little time travel here. Tell me about the time between

here. Tell me about the time between that early memory and that early experience in Texas and and and taking over right before you took over at at the helm of Democracy Forward. your

career without regard to the current work in the current moment is such an important model um for young lawyers for others who are interested in making a pivot um for those who who go from private practice to something else and

I'd love it if you could share just a little bit about how that path unfolded for you so that others can understand what's actually behind a career that looks like yours today.

>> Sure. So I arrived um at law school really wanting to make a difference. I

had had a job in college where I was doing work in public schools in central Texas and realized about halfway through that work that so many of the

opportunities that um students like me and others were given was because of court decision and work through the law to make the law more inclusive for people. whether you're talking about

people. whether you're talking about Title N and the prohibition on sex discrimination, whether you're talking about uh Brown versus Board of Education and the integration of schools in the

country. And so, um I really went to law

country. And so, um I really went to law school because of a love for justice.

And when I got there, I also realized that litigation uh really scratched an itch in me, which was my I was an old debater and I loved debating and the practice of litigating I really fell in

love with in those early truly reading the cases in the early um in early law school taking clinics. And so I ended up I started my career um at Covington and

Berling and then I went to Wilmer Hail.

I loved my private practice career. I

had a very robust public interest docket. Um everything from representing

docket. Um everything from representing people that were detained in Guantanamo Bay without process and the Bush administration to civil rights plaintiffs um to women's healthc care

providers. So a lot got to do a lot of

providers. So a lot got to do a lot of that work and also had uh big corporate clients that had hard problems they needed to solve and I loved helping solve those hard problems and litigating

those cases. Uh but I came to this work

those cases. Uh but I came to this work full-time after uh President Trump was elected in 2016. And then in 2017 in the

early months, we started seeing what was shock and awe for the American community and for the um sort of American conscience at the time. things like the

Muslim ban um where lawyers in airports were dropping their suitcases and having to render legal assistance as

if a doctor does that in a war zone. And

lawyers quite literally were having a moment in that time and I had just had my son and um uh was really concerned about the world he was going to grow up in. and a senior lawyer that I admired

in. and a senior lawyer that I admired asked me if I would be willing to be part of a startup legal organization that no one had heard of that didn't have a website and it just seemed like the right thing to do. So, I litigated

some early cases uh at Democracy Forward before people knew who we were. Um we

won some great early cases on issues of voting rights and um uh got funding for communities. So many things. And then I

communities. So many things. And then I went to the American College of OBGYNS where I served as general counsel um which was really an outgrowth of a lot of the work I'd done um uh with women's

health in my private practice. And then

after January 6th uh I returned to democracy forward. This was a time not

democracy forward. This was a time not to pull back on the fight for democracy but to push forward. And so I came in 2021 to build and scale what was a very

promising but small startup organization to the organization that that many know today.

>> So you were already a founder for those who don't know this detail. You were

already a founder of democracy.

>> I was on the founding litigation team.

Yeah. I was not the executive director.

I was not on the board but um I was one of the founding litigators. Brought some

of the early cases. We challenged the Pence voter Pence Kobach Voter Commission uh which is a commission that was collecting personal data on individual voters. Does that sound at

individual voters. Does that sound at all interest similar? We just filed another lawsuit on that in this administration but um and and brought a range of cases with with just incredible

colleagues and that's been a throughine.

Uh I've had incredible colleagues everywhere I've worked but the colleagues at Democracy Forward are just so incredible in many ways.

>> If you would speak to something that comes up so often, I'm sure it does for you. I think every seasoned lawyer gets

you. I think every seasoned lawyer gets some inquiries from either people who are going to go to law school or law students or people young in their career. So you are at an in-house you

career. So you are at an in-house you are at two law firms and and I would speak to the training you get of being at a law firm before you go in-house andor create your own thing. That's a

that's a nugget that I think is so important for young lawyers to understand the value of everybody's path is different and there's no wrong but if you could just speak to the value of what a young lawyer would get being at a firm

>> particularly in litigation and of course I was at firms and my two firms Covington and Wilmer both have been targeted by the uh you know they have both been targeted by the president and neither of them have capitulated and so

I want to call that out because one of the things that's been special about many firms and particularly many firms in Washington DC is their commitment uh they're a business but their commitment

to the rule of law and and I'm really proud of my two alumni firms but um so I was a litigator and for those that are listening that want to litigate and and file cases and build cases I think a law

firm can be a great place to go uh you work on matters that are really high stakes um you uh you know the firms I went to they were uh really your work

could create a path for you if if you were willing to lean in and take on extra work, you could get experiences early on. That's not that's not the case

early on. That's not that's not the case everywhere. So, I do tell people to

everywhere. So, I do tell people to really talk to folks about what the day-to-day experience is. But I was really fortunate that I worked with for some of the best lawyers in the country.

Some of those lawyers are now at Democracy Forward, uh, doing work here that mentored me, that taught me. And,

um, you learn, you know, you learn a lot, uh, in those in those their their heavy workflow heavy workload days. I

did not go inhouse for the reasons many people went in house. I am a litigator's litigator. Uh but um but women's health

litigator. Uh but um but women's health and um reproductive health and the work that OBGYNS do uh for both women and for people that require OBGYn care such as

our um you know trans individuals and communities across the country was really a tip of the spear, continues to be just a tip of the spear issue that encompasses so many things. You know,

science evidence medicine equity justice, all of those things really intersect. And so, uh, you know, being

intersect. And so, uh, you know, being able to serve OBGYNS as, uh, one of my clients has has been really a highlight of my career and that's what led me to ACOG. And then, of course, uh, I'm back

ACOG. And then, of course, uh, I'm back at a full litigating organization now because I can't shake it.

>> Yeah. Just quick note, as the son of an OBGYn, I I I totally understand, um, the importance of that and as somebody who also tracked his career from private practice to, uh, being in house, I I

it's such a valuable training and obviously for litigation for so many reasons. All right, let's jump into the

reasons. All right, let's jump into the work of Democracy Forward and something that you know as I've gotten to know you and Democracy Forward over the the past couple years for in in in many ways why

the work of Democracy Forward always matters. Not just now, especially now,

matters. Not just now, especially now, but always matters. So many people assume that the gears of democracy, civil society, and government are always going to work without fail, like a hard

drive under a computer, but once it starts making noise or the fans start spinning hotter, we realize we're having some problems. things come into a clearer view, but help people understand why it always matters and why it really

matters right now and what people may or may not be seeing and how to connect the dots about what they should be worried or concerned about and why this matters in this moment.

>> Yeah. Yeah. So, at Democracy Forward, we have the honor and the privilege of representing people and communities across this country in lawsuits uh where they are suing in many instances to

defend their rights um and to defend the rights that all people in this country are granted. Uh rights are only as good

are granted. Uh rights are only as good as your ability to exercise them. And

so, this work always matters. And before

this administration where we are seeing really unprecedented and accelerating autocratic threats and we'll talk about that but democracy forward we were in places and continue to be in places like

Arkansas where the governor signed a law that would have criminalized librarians for misshelving books putting librarians um under criminal penalty. uh we are,

you know, in communities across the country where there are very extreme interests that are trying to wheel and deal and misinformation, trying to convince people that they don't have a voice or that they shouldn't vote or

that they can't vote. Um and so that work that exercising that muscle every day to say these aren't just my academic rights that somebody wrote down on a document. These are real live things

document. These are real live things that I get for being in this country and we're going to exercise them and use them. that is really really important in

them. that is really really important in this moment. So that's a lot of the work

this moment. So that's a lot of the work we do and of course that work is having a bit of a you know there's a bit of a high demand right now for that work given the challenges that we're seeing

with the way the president has chosen to govern. But um but the work of democracy

govern. But um but the work of democracy the work of using the law having a point of view that the government does need to serve people that the law is here to serve people. The Supreme Court should

serve people. The Supreme Court should be protecting our rights not reversing our rights. All of those things are

our rights. All of those things are ongoing issues that if we ignore or if we sort of convince ourselves it's not going to impact us, we end up in situations like where we are now.

>> And so this work is nonpartisan because it's truly about the fundamental core of what protects civil society, democracy, rule of law, access to justice. I'd love

to get in a couple details, but I think it's so important for people who may not be as familiar or in the day-to-day or lawyers and understand this that this is

fundamental to everybody's rights 247 365. It's not about one party or another

365. It's not about one party or another or one president or another. It's about

responding appropriately to the actions to preserve the core of what makes this society work. Is that right?

society work. Is that right?

>> That is 100% right. We welcome anybody that wants to be part of um a tomorrow that is better than today. uh that wants to be part of this generational work to

build a democracy that has never truly existed in this country. A democracy

that holds everyone and that uh provides equal dignity and the ability for all people to thrive as well as now a lot of defensive work to hold on to the hardearned gains that we've gotten

through this march for justice. So, we

welcome everybody into our work. We are

representing right now, just to give you a flavor of it in court, um you know, we're representing houses of worship that are very diverse in the uh in the religions and denominations they

represent, including, by the way, we're representing a bunch of white evangelical churches and Baptist churches. I mean, I grew up Baptist, but

churches. I mean, I grew up Baptist, but um you know, you can imagine that not everybody in that coalition is going to necessarily agree uh with the most progressive um vision of of the world,

but yet they are going to court right now to protect the ability of people to engage in communal worship without having immigration raids happening in churches. And we're doing that with the

churches. And we're doing that with the Seek Temple of San Francisco and a a range of religious institutions. We've

represented civil servants uh who have worked for you know both Republican and Democratic administrations whose service is fundamentally nonpartisan in lawsuits. So we do a lot of work um that

lawsuits. So we do a lot of work um that I think a lot of the work and the people and communities we have the honor of working on behalf of really shows that we welcome everybody in into this work.

>> So let's get tactical about a couple of things that people may have heard about a little bit in the news or they may see but but have passed over. help people

understand exactly what's happening and why it's problematic. Here I'm I'm just outside of Chicago and we have very very famously had ICE on the streets of Chicago. I know you've been very

Chicago. I know you've been very attentive to that as well as their presence in other parts around the country. But there was a startling

country. But there was a startling statistic that I think 85% or more of the people that were arrested or or taken into custody by ICE were found to have no criminal record, had done no

wrongdoing, etc. and that people need to understand this isn't what sometimes they hear that we're getting the worst of the worst or those who are criminals and need to be detained or reviewed or deported, but these are actual innocent

people. And I wonder if you would speak

people. And I wonder if you would speak to something that only I've ever heard you do as well as you do it, which is normalizing the abnormal and the unprecedented in this and what the long game might be on that and why people who

may not be familiar with these issues or the law behind it should be paying attention to what's happening in those news stories.

>> Yeah. Yeah. I mean, what is happening right now and what is happening specifically with respect to immigrant communities, black and brown communities, um, ISIS's operations, what

is happening right now is a threat to every single American. And I'll make it really plain. I mean, what ICE is doing

really plain. I mean, what ICE is doing right now is in many instances, they are detaining people without proper process.

We've already had litigation filed because of removing people from the country without process which which by the way nine justices of the Supreme Court agree you everybody in this

country gets some type of due process.

And so um these are really the types of tactics that we can't just get tired.

This is going to be a long you know we're like what are we 3 point 3.1 years to go in this administration but we can't just get tired and say well you know that was sort of old news last

month. This is not normal. There are

month. This is not normal. There are

lawyers that are fighting every single day in Chicago, the raid of the apartment building and then the way in which the Department of Justice put up a video and on and tried to do a PR stunt

over just cruelty. We're in court right now to get that video and to see the raw footage and to obtain the raw footage.

In Chicago, you've had the National Guard and the courts have said that the National Guard can't be there. We've

also had to sue in Memphis to keep the National Guard out of Memphis. But it is not normal. I live in Washington DC,

not normal. I live in Washington DC, send my kid to school here. A federal

judge just ruled that the National Guard should not be in Washington DC either.

But until that works its way through the courts, we're going to work watching National Guard on our city on our civilian city streets. And so that is it

is not normal. And what it is is it is part of a vastly accelerating autocratic playbook. And part of these tactics are

playbook. And part of these tactics are about people feeling so overwhelmed that they don't feel like there's anything they can do. And so you give

up. You sort of retreat in um sometimes

up. You sort of retreat in um sometimes for your own survival, sometimes out of fear, sometimes out of exhaustion. And

that is actually the number one tool that autocratic actors use and have is trying to convince people that they don't have power. And so one of the things we have to do in this moment, we

certainly shouldn't normalize this. But

we also have to be real attuned to having conversations like this to our community, spending some time together.

You and I have been in a few things that we've set up just to sort of spend some time together. Make sure that you're um

time together. Make sure that you're um you know touching base with your neighbors, building some community uh because we don't want people to feel isolated and alone even in this very

scary time because that will create uh further conditions for further acceleration of this autocratic threat and community that creates courage and that's creates something that we can push through together.

>> And and that line that that never gets old and shouldn't get old and can be seen every day which is that courage is contagious is a real thing. It's not

just a slogan. It's that that that we can link arms and and that you you've actually said something which is really great which this administration has a difficult time processing or dealing with a courageous foe. And could you

speak about that a little bit more?

>> Yeah, I mean this is what we've seen in our work. You know, in the first early

our work. You know, in the first early days of the administration, there were not very many lawyers that were willing to go to court not just against the president but also against Elon Musk. I

mean, remember that Elon Musk and the president were tweeting they were going to take Washington and take the United States by, you know, firestorm and there were very few lawyers that were willing

to go in because they thought that the costs were so high. People are getting it now and that's really exciting because people are finding when we act together, we can. But what we learned

early on is that this administration knows what to do with weakness. They do.

They can feel it when you're afraid.

They can feel it if you're going to capitulate. But we haven't seen that

capitulate. But we haven't seen that they know what to do with strength. And

our work has shown that day after day in many instances we are in court on behalf of people in communities that are not the most powerful institutions in the country but yet they are holding the

line and creating and preserving rights for all of us. And we're seeing that play out every day. So people say courage is contagious. We have a bracelet here at Democracy Forward we're about to give our whole staff uh for the

holidays that that says courage is contagious. But I've been saying courage

contagious. But I've been saying courage is the new currency. Courage is the way.

It is the thing that we are going to have to have to take us from this moment to the next moment. There is no way of getting out of this moment without a bit of courage. And what does that mean? It

of courage. And what does that mean? It

means something different to different people. There are folks uh for whom it

people. There are folks uh for whom it is not safe for themselves or for their families to show up in certain spaces

given the militarization of our cities, given ICE on the streets targeting black and brown people. And those are going to be that's going to be a completely

different type of calculus about how you show up with courage. For many people right now, existing existing in a state of joy, in a state of community, that is

the most courageous thing that can be done. And then there are others and

done. And then there are others and institutions and organizations and folks that have some leverage in this moment that need to be using that and building courage and leveraging that. And so

we're really open to all the different manifestations of courage here. But it

is going to be that courage that has to take us out of this moment. There's no

way to uh there's not going to be any way to get out of this time by keeping our heads down or by just hoping that this blows over because we're in a really big crisis moment.

>> Hope is important, but hope is not a strategy. [laughter] I love a positive

strategy. [laughter] I love a positive message and I we we'll finish on that, but I want to go back to to something else that you said which about this flooding the zone. The confusion and the overwhelm are a strategy. They are a

tactic. They're part of what and this is

tactic. They're part of what and this is this has transcended two two versions of this this administration's tenure in DC which is flooding the zone is actually a strategy and a tactic of that team and

the people behind it. They talk about it all the time creating chaos and overwhelm so that people are retreating and afraid and just trying to focus on it. You and I you mentioned a a place

it. You and I you mentioned a a place you and I spent some time with some people and um I think number one it's important for people to understand that the chaos and overwhelm is is is

intentional. It's to put us back on our

intentional. It's to put us back on our heels. And so to me, one of the tactics

heels. And so to me, one of the tactics that that we can take to counter that is to simply take that deep breath, chin up, shoulders back, understand this is a strategy, and not being willing to feed it any more than is necessary. We have

to deal with the reality of it, but it's better to pull back. How would you inform the average person? You and I sat with someone at a round table who said, "Most people are still just driving their kids to practice. They're going to

the grocery store. They're dealing with prices. They're trying to get through

prices. They're trying to get through their day. They don't see democracy

their day. They don't see democracy fraying. They don't see rights being um

fraying. They don't see rights being um ignored altogether. They don't feel it

ignored altogether. They don't feel it until it comes for them. But it's

important those people understand what is happening and that this is not garden variety politics. There is a perception

variety politics. There is a perception that this is normalizing the abnormal and the unprecedented in service of a longer strategy. so that we're used to

longer strategy. so that we're used to seeing whether or not it's Customs and Border Patrol or ICE to seeing armed troops on our street so that it is perhaps less objectionable or something

maybe we're more used to this time next year. Could you speak to what people two

year. Could you speak to what people two or three things people should keep their eyes and ears open for to know that this is actually happening now and that they should be worried because it will have a further downstream effect.

>> Well, it's really important not to be desensitized. So, if if someone is um

desensitized. So, if if someone is um right now in a situation where they're not in a community that is being touched by the unlawful nature of this administration, and by the way, I don't think there's a community that's not

being touched. At Democracy Forward, we

being touched. At Democracy Forward, we have had to go to court to stop the president from cutting off all federal funding across the country, which would do everything from cut off meals on

wheels to small business programs to safety programs. So sometimes that message doesn't get through because of a fractured media environment, but this harm is affecting people across the

country and we're hearing it and we're seeing it every day. But it's important not to get desensitized.

And what that means is we can't be overwhelmed with all of the state of the world every day because that makes you just want to retreat and become desensitized. But it also means that if

desensitized. But it also means that if we're in a community that right now isn't facing um ICE banging on the doors, ICE kicking

in a door, National Guard on the street as I am taking my son to school. That is

what is happening in communities across the country. We need to be paying

the country. We need to be paying attention to the stories of the people and they not I'm not talking about celebrities or like whatever just stories of people. They're telling their stories. They're talking about what's

stories. They're talking about what's happening. They're seeing it with their

happening. They're seeing it with their own eyes. They're feeling it. And that's

own eyes. They're feeling it. And that's

a big piece of this. So, I would say for for folks is to not be desensitized.

Make a plan about how you're going to obtain your information. You don't have to listen to 15 hours of cable television or Tik Tok videos or whatever, but make a plan about the information you want to obtain. Set a

time to do it and then make sure that we're listening to the real stories of people, the things behind the headlines.

And there's a lot of ways to do that.

So, that's one thing. I think the other thing is that we should be highly suspicious of any administration that gloatess

about harm that is happening to the American people. That is not normal. We

American people. That is not normal. We

have not seen that in a Republican or Democratic administrations like we are seeing now with a president whose job is to serve the people gloating

about harm to people. This president

went to the United States Supreme Court to try to keep food out of the hands of 42 million Americans while my team and our co-consil were fighting day and night to make sure that people could

access basic nutrition. It is not normal, regardless of your policy view, for a president to be cheering and wanting to deprive people of basic

necessities that they need. to be

cheering as planes are leaving the country with people that have been removed without due process. That is not a normal way of operating. And I think that that's one thing we want people to

understand um and to really be government has let people down before in the past. But we need to have high

the past. But we need to have high expectations of our government that this is a basic expectation that your president is not rooting against the very people that he or she is elected to

serve. And that's what we're seeing now.

serve. And that's what we're seeing now.

So I think those are some things I would say um in in this moment. And um we really are in a new paradigm. Things

have not been perfect for a long time.

Um, they've never been they've never been fully inclusive. We've never been that true democracy that we're all trying to achieve. But we've been on a path forward. And now we're in a place

path forward. And now we're in a place where we are amidst a rapidly accelerating backslide of our democracy.

And there is a way to turn it around.

But it is going to take people. And that

is why this president is weaponizing the government against the people. And we

all need to be on guard for that. I've

said for years, long before this this administration, that now is one of the greatest times in the history of the world to be a lawyer because nothing happens without lawyers, the rule of law, and civil society that lets

everybody achieve whatever version of of their pursuit of life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness. It's it's not just a colloquial saying. It is also a reality that that only becomes more precious when we start to lose it, which

we're seeing now. If you could rally other lawyers and law firms and leaders of law firms and law students whose voices all matter. We have seen this from the early capitulation of some law

firms and we've seen it through the very attack by this administration against law firms in the first place. Some of

their capitulation and some of them actually leaning forward and resisting it. What is your rallying cry to leaders

it. What is your rallying cry to leaders of law firms today and what they can and should be doing and where can they see examples of that success where cou courage can be contagious for them? What

should they be looking at and doing next to be part of the solution on the right side of history in preserving democracy?

You know, this is a do or die moment uh for the legal profession and we see that every single day and it is lawyers uh that are right now leveraging the voices

of people in order to preserve and to protect rights that every single person is entitled to. Um, but what I would say, I think the American Bar

Association has done a tremendous job in explaining to all lawyers, reminding us whether we're in law school or whether we're retired or whether we're actively practicing what our obligations are when

we became lawyers. And um, our obligation to the Constitution, our obligation to the rule of law. And so I would really encourage, I think that is the place to start is get that ethics

book back out. Get that constitution back out. You swore an oath to it. You

back out. You swore an oath to it. You

don't get to have privileged and confidential conversations and all these special rules in your profession that we have if we don't have some obligations that we owe back to society. And we are

really encouraged by the courage that we are seeing in lawyers. We have folks that you know have been in federal government that have had to say I I cannot do this because I will not violate my ethical duty. uh when the

when the president and the administration has, you know, tried to get people to lie to courts, we've seen law firms sue the president and of course lawyers like the team at Democracy Forward and at so many

organizations, the ACLU, public citizen, civil rights organizations. They're on

the front lines every day doing this work that's protecting all of us. So,

you don't have to do that. That doesn't

have to be your profession as a lawyer, but we all need to rally around this community and rally around our professional ethics and our constitution and remember that we too took an oath

and we don't get to be members of a profession and then just decide that the constitution's inconvenient for four years. You know, we've got to do our we

years. You know, we've got to do our we have to play our role in upholding the constitution in the ways we can. And I

think you see a lot of lawyers doing that and the ones that haven't and the institutions that haven't um you know history is going to history's eyes is on them. You know history is going to judge

them. You know history is going to judge that very harshly.

>> You recently commented that nobody's going to get through this time successfully by keeping their heads down. Um what is something that a lawyer

down. Um what is something that a lawyer at a firm let's let's put the firm aside that the firm may or may not take a position externally or internally may or may not be in it to win it in one way or

another. But there's so many lawyers.

another. But there's so many lawyers.

I'm married to one. I am one um relatively plugged into this but who struggle to know what they can do. And

and one little thing I did and I smiled earlier when you mentioned uh the bar association and and people showing up in the first uh term of this administration. Um for the first time in

administration. Um for the first time in my entire career in 24 years I carry my bar card in my wallet. It has always gathered dust in a cabinet right over my

shoulder here because I never felt any need or practical application for it.

And now I'm scared enough and I'm a white male over 40 in the world who walks through with that level of privilege, but I keep that bar card in my wallet now because I don't know what I'm going to encounter on the streets

around my community or out in the world.

What can in individual lawyers do to be part of the solution right now?

>> Yeah. So, first of all, I think like you know, dust off your bar, right? So, make

sure that you are actively participating in your local bar association. that's

going to be it's going to be critical um on rule of law issues, attorney discipline issues. The ABA has great

discipline issues. The ABA has great resources, but um but lawyers have a responsibility. It's in our ethical code

responsibility. It's in our ethical code to promote access to justice. That

doesn't mean you have to go argue a case at the Supreme Court. Doesn't even mean that you have to sue the president. But

there are a there are um ways in everybody's community that legal services are needed. Whether that is helping people fill out a tax form, whether it is helping people access social security, if you're a

transactional lawyer, whether it is going and doing some landlord tenant, there are direct services that need to be provided in our communities. And a

lot of lawyers that typically provide those services are not able to do it right now because there are these other democracy level fights that we're fighting. And so one is if if you're not

fighting. And so one is if if you're not sort of up for volunteering to bring a big constitutional law case, let's let's make sure our local communities are getting what they need in terms of

access to justice. And there are so many ways to do that um in our local communities. And then more broadly for

communities. And then more broadly for anybody that's listening that wants to get involved, um Democracy Forward has a program called Democracy 2025. It was

our response to Project 2025. There are

more than 650 organizations involved with it.

and a lot of individual lawyers. So, you

can go to democracy2025.org.

You can sign up or write and say, "Hey, I'm a lawyer. I really want to figure out how I can help." And we've been able to help put some volunteer lawyers to work doing that. So, so, so you can definitely do that. But I would just say

that in our local communities, there are people that need access to justice and there's all kinds of ways to plug in.

And taking it back to the first question you asked me, we know that these seemingly small things, these seemingly small ways of doing good can truly have

big implications. And we need to really

big implications. And we need to really know that now because that's all it's going to be is a bunch of people, ordinary people living in an extraordinary time doing what they can with with the power they have.

>> The little things are the big things.

Last question on this this specific topic is law schools, law school clinics, law students and their voices and law school deans of of course, but they matter now too, right?

>> Tremendous. We're working with law clinics. Um it's that is tremendous and

clinics. Um it's that is tremendous and of course law clinics do a lot of the work to provide direct services but law students I get so and if you're if law students were listening we get so

inspired our team at Democracy Ford gets so inspired every day by seeing that um there are people that still want to go into this profession even as the president is targeting it. People want

to be lawyers. They want to be part of the generational work to hold this country together to push us forward. And

so I think that there there's so many things that matter and really um just just becoming familiar with the law with what it means to be a lawyer and then doing that work through legal clinics or through other types of experiences early

on can just be really valuable.

>> Looking ahead, what does success look like if we make it through this time period and all of its diversity? And how

can we strengthen democracy and the rule of law so that we are stronger in the broken or sprained or strained places that the current moment has revealed?

What does that look like in a forward-looking positive vision?

>> Look, I mean success is very simple but very hard to achieve. We want every single person in this country to be able to thrive, to be able to pursue

happiness, to be able to live the life that they want and can live. And we want to be able to do it together with some semblance of a national community.

That's not a conformed community. That's

not a community without disscent. We

want all of that disscent, debate, hard policy fights, all of those things. But

we want every single person in this country to truly get to live in a country where the institutions are serving them, where the institutions are made to hold them. And if there is one thing that is going to happen in this

crisis, we and our colleagues at Democracy Forward as well as so many others are committed to making sure that this crisis is a catalyst for generational change and a catalyst for

building and reimagining a democracy that has never fully been achieved in this country. a democracy that can truly

this country. a democracy that can truly hold all of us and one that will not falter in the future because of the failure of government and politicians to

deliver for people that has breeded cynicism that has that has placed us where we are now. So that's the endgame and our team at Democracy Forward and I think you and so many other folks we're

not going to stop until we reach that endgame. Mandela,

endgame. Mandela, Gandhi Lincoln Perryman.

Lawyers have always been the architects and the custodians of civil society. And

it is times like this where the oath is so much more than performative professional practice. It's a call to

professional practice. It's a call to action. You and your colleagues have

action. You and your colleagues have reminded us that rule of law is not self- sustaining, but is kept alive by the people who believe it, who practice

it, and protect it every day. Every

lawyer listening, chin up, shoulders back. We are proud. Part of this proud

back. We are proud. Part of this proud tradition. Our work in courtrooms,

tradition. Our work in courtrooms, classrooms, boardrooms, and beyond is [music] what keeps our democracy standing. Sky Perryman, I am so deeply

standing. Sky Perryman, I am so deeply grateful to be in a world where you are doing what you do, where you are who you are and you are how you are, which is

nothing short of inspirational [music] um and consequential. Thank you for everything you and your team do every day [music] um to protect and preserve this democracy and I'm so grateful for

your time here on Better Good.

>> Thank you so much.

>> Thank you for tuning in to Better Good.

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