Stop Wasting Your Time: The Scientific Way to Stop Procrastination and Get Control of Your Day

You are a productive person. [music] You

are getting a lot done. People depend on you. You are doing the things you

you. You are doing the things you [music] have to do. I want you to make time for the things you want to do.

Today, you and I are here with the very wise, very practical, and very real Laura [music] Vanderam. And we're

learning how to take control of our free time. For so much of my life, whether it

time. For so much of my life, whether it was because I had a really stressful [music] job or taking care of kids or taking care of aging parents, I felt like my entire life were things I have

[music] to do. There are certain phases of life when things feel more crunched, when they feel more intense, [music] when the choices feel a little bit more fraught. But I promise it is possible.

fraught. But I promise it is possible.

Even in the middle of a busy Tuesday, [music] even when life seems chaotic, we can enjoy ourselves. We can have moments of fun. And not only that, I think

of fun. And not only that, I think people deserve to have moments of fun.

I've seen people's lives transformed [music] by finding an hour to do something that they enjoy in the course of the week.

And it changes their narrative. [music]

My life is no longer out of my control at the mercy of everyone else. I am the kind of person who makes space for things that are fun for me.

Next week is going to have its own problems. [music] Uh, next month is going to have its own crises. We need to figure out strategies that allow us to live a good life now. You start to feel

more empowered. You start feeling less

more empowered. You start feeling less overwhelmed, right? Life starts feeling

overwhelmed, right? Life starts feeling more calm. [music] You feel like you are

more calm. [music] You feel like you are making progress on your goals. And

that's a much better place to be starting from.

>> Laura Vanderham, welcome to the Mel Robbins podcast.

>> Yeah, thanks for having me. I'm I'm so excited to be here.

>> So, here's how I want to start. I would

love to have you speak directly to the person who's with us right now. somebody

who doesn't have a lot of time, but they have made the time to learn from you.

What could you tell them is going to be different about their life if they take everything to heart that you're about to share based on your research and your expertise about time?

>> I am so happy you're here today. Anyone

listening to this show, I know you are a productive person. You are getting a lot

productive person. You are getting a lot done. People depend on you. You are

done. People depend on you. You are

doing the things you have to do. I want

you to make time for the things you want to do, right? I want everyone listening to this to wake up in the morning knowing there's something exciting and

wonderful waiting for you in the day.

That is what time management is about, right? It's not about squeezing more in

right? It's not about squeezing more in that you have to do. It's about making space for the good stuff. Laura,

already my mouth is on the floor.

you you said something so simple and I want to make sure that you got it as you were listening to Laura or watching this right now. There's a big difference

right now. There's a big difference between the things you have to do and the things that you want to do. And for

so much of my life, whether it was because I had a really stressful job, and jobs always have a lot of have toss or taking care of kids or taking care of

aging parents, I felt like my entire life were things I have to do. You're

going to teach us that there is time available to do things we want to do, even though there's a lot we have to do.

I promise you, even if you have a lot you have to do, and I know everyone does these days, there is space for the things you want to do. And not only that, you deserve to have space for the

things you want to do. You are doing so much for everyone. I promise there's time for yourself as well.

>> Oh my god. Well, I can't wait to find these little pockets of free time cuz I can't wait to find them for people.

>> Well, it doesn't feel like you have any free time. I mean, is that a common

free time. I mean, is that a common thing that you've found when you're researching these topics that people feel like they have no free time? A lot

of people will say, "Yes, I have no free time whatsoever." I can promise you, I

time whatsoever." I can promise you, I have studied thousands of people's schedules. Everybody has some

schedules. Everybody has some discretionary time. Now, it may not be

discretionary time. Now, it may not be as much time as you want. I totally

believe that. But there's a big difference between not as much as I want and none. When people say I have no free

and none. When people say I have no free time whatsoever, they mean I don't have as much free time as I want. But when we approach this question from I have some free time, it's just not as much as I

want. Well, that suggests some good

want. Well, that suggests some good questions right there. How can I scale up my free time in the long run? You

know, how can I make good choices in the limited time I do have so I feel most rejuvenated? Okay, so that's the second

rejuvenated? Okay, so that's the second takeaway that I want to make sure that you got because I just had a light bulb moment there to quote Oprah where it is easy to fall into that trap where you're

burnt out or you feel overwhelmed or you have a never-ending to-do list and you start to say to yourself, I have no free time. I have no time. One takeaway

time. I have no time. One takeaway

already is I don't have enough free time. And simply that change

time. And simply that change acknowledges that there is some discretionary time to use your words that we can reclaim for ourselves. And

that's a really that feels doable. And

so I'm glad we're starting there. Laura,

based on your research, what do you think the most surprising thing that the person who is with us right now needs to know about time management?

>> Well, here's a number for you.

>> Okay. There are 168 hours in a week.

>> Does it with like total?

>> Total.

>> Okay. So that includes sleeping.

>> Well, people say 24/7 all the time, >> right?

>> Nobody ever multiplies it through.

>> Okay, >> so if you multiply 24 * 7, >> there are 168 hours in a week.

>> Okay, >> and I think this is an important number for people to know for a couple reasons.

I mean, one, a week is the cycle of life as we actually live it. I mean, if I look at you on a Tuesday, I look at you on a Saturday, these days often look a little bit different from people, but a week encompasses both. And you know,

both are representative of our lives. So

we want to make sure we are looking at all of them. But when we start with the number 168 hours, just a few numbers to think about with this. If you work 40

hours, so standard full-time job, okay?

If you sleep 8 hours a night, Yeah. So 8

* 7 is 56 hours per week. Okay. If you

subtract 40 and 56 from 168, we get 72 hours for other things. Okay? Now, that

doesn't mean that those 72 hours are free and clear. Most of us have families we are taking care of. We have community responsibilities. We have housework. We

responsibilities. We have housework. We

have all sorts of things we need to deal with in those 72 hours. But 72 hours is still a lot of time. And so when people are looking at that, they say, "Well,

could I find 3 hours to read in the course of the week? Could I find two hours to get

week? Could I find two hours to get together with friends in the course of 72 hours? That starts to seem a little

72 hours? That starts to seem a little bit more doable than if we're just looking at a crunched Tuesday. I think a lot of us are walking around with this story that we are incredibly busy. We

have no time for anything. And I'm not denying that anyone is busy. Um, but I would question the narrative of having no time for anything. And I think sometimes looking from the perspective

of 168 hours can help us see that a little bit better. It is a little eyeopening because you're right. I often

when I think about, okay, do I have any time or how much time do I have or what am I doing with my time? I'll open up my calendar and be like and then I'll look at my to-do list and then I don't see

any time and then I panic about the time. But what you're going to teach us

time. But what you're going to teach us is let's just start with the basics that after a full-time job and getting 8 hours of sleep, there's 72 hours. And

when you look at the fact that there's 72 hours, we're going to start to ask ourselves, could I possibly find some pockets of time in there where I could

be more intentional about how I'm using it? that feels accessible to me because

it? that feels accessible to me because one of the things that I was concerned about even though I'm very familiar with your work is time management can be a very like bro thing like block your time

set the timer like get in these time like all this kind of stuff well we all do have 168 hours in a week but you are correct I mean I'm in the weeds too I

work I have young kids still at home >> you have five children and a puppy and a spouse >> I have all those things but yeah we even with all those things. We can still make

choices. Now, will somebody who has five

choices. Now, will somebody who has five kids and a job have as much discretionary time as one of these perhaps productivity bros, if we want to talk about them that way? No. But that

doesn't mean we have to completely admit defeat.

>> We just need to be intentional about our time and recognize that we can still make some choices. I love that because you're meeting us where we are and your

research and the in particular the nine rules of time management that you're going to walk us through help us even in

those moments to reclaim time. And so

let's turn to the nine rules that you write in your amazing best-selling book, Tranquility by Tuesday. And the first

rule of productivity, I love this one, is give yourself a bedtime. Why is

giving yourself a bedtime a rule for productivity?

>> Well, I know you are a big fan of bedtimes, correct? You give yourself a

bedtimes, correct? You give yourself a bedtime.

>> Yes, I do. I do actually.

>> Yeah. And I think this is important for everyone else because here's a paradox I have noticed with sleep and from studying thousands of people's schedules.

Many people are getting enough sleep from a quantitative perspective when you look over the course of the week. So I

do these time diary projects. Sleep

experts tell us you know we need adults need let's say 7 to 8 hours of sleep a day. And I'd look at people's time logs

day. And I'd look at people's time logs and they were generally getting somewhere between 49 and 56 hours of sleep over the course of the week.

Right? So that would put us in the seven to eight hours per day category.

>> And yet people feel really tired.

[laughter] And so it's like, well, why is everyone claiming to be so tired?

>> Yeah.

>> When they seem to be getting enough sleep from a quantitative perspective.

So I'm puzzling this for a while. And

then I look at how much sleep people are getting daytoday.

So there can be a vast difference in how much sleep people are getting daytoday.

And I'm not just talking Tuesday versus Saturday. I'm talking even Tuesday

Saturday. I'm talking even Tuesday versus Wednesday, okay?

>> In one of my time diary projects, I looked at how much sleep people were getting on Tuesday versus Wednesday. And

about a quarter of people had a 90minute gap between how much sleep they got on Tuesday really and how much they got on Wednesday. And you can see how this

Wednesday. And you can see how this plays out. People are up late on one

plays out. People are up late on one night. Y

night. Y >> um they have to be up at the crack of dawn for something and so it's been a short night and then your body forces you to make it up.

>> So they are crashing on the couch while watching TV or they're sitting with their four-year-old who's going to bed and they're falling asleep on the floor there or they're hitting Yeah.

>> they're hitting snooze four times in the morning. You know that planned workout

morning. You know that planned workout in the morning isn't happening. Uh

they're getting up, you know, 2 minutes before they need to be out the door. Um

so which night was typical? Well, they

both happened again, but [snorts] it's disorderly sleep. So, most adults need

disorderly sleep. So, most adults need to wake up at set times in the morning for work or family responsibilities, right? People have been setting alarm

right? People have been setting alarm clocks since they're 12 years old. Since

that is the case, in order to get the same amount of sleep every night, which just feels so much better, right? We

don't want to be on this drop tower carnival ride where you're going up and down and up and down.

We need to figure out what time we need to go to bed in order to get the same amount of sleep every night. Got it? So,

this is just math, right? If you need 8 hours of sleep, if you need to wake up at 6:00 a.m., then you need to be asleep at 10:00 p.m. If you need 7 and 1/2 hours of sleep and you need to wake up

at 6:30 a.m., you need to be in bed trying to go to sleep at 11:00 p.m.,

right? Yeah. Nothing to do with what kind of person you are. Just a math question. So, everyone needs a bedtime.

question. So, everyone needs a bedtime.

And the real pro tip of course and you know this is you need to set some sort of alarm for a little bit before right before their bedtimes and this gives you a chance to wind down, shut the house,

brush your teeth, say good night, get into bed, feel all cozy. Um when people did this so people followed this rule >> and the rule is just simply give yourself a bedtime.

>> Give yourself a bedtime.

>> Yeah. The proportion of people who said they were getting enough sleep to handle their responsibilities rose 25% over the course of the study. Really? Yeah. And I

would tell you people weren't really getting more sleep. Like I'm not saying you have to devote more hours of your life to sleep. It's just that it's more orderly. You're not crashing one night

orderly. You're not crashing one night and making it up the next. You're

getting the same amount of sleep every night. And that gives you so much more

night. And that gives you so much more energy.

>> Well, and also you feel in control.

>> And is that part of it too that you're choosing how to spend the time? So, it

gives you this sense that you're in control of it.

>> Absolutely. Every one of these rules has an obvious benefit. Like, go to bed on time, you get enough sleep. That sounds

great.

>> But there's a deeper reason for it, too.

I mean, most of us understand that a day has a beginning, >> right?

>> But we're a little fuzzy around this notion that each day has an end.

>> Okay, say that again cuz this is actually really important because you're right. It does start at a certain time.

right. It does start at a certain time.

And you don't often think about how important it is to be intentional about, well, when am I actually ending today?

>> Yes. And so having a time that you know the day is ending allows you to make more rational choices.

>> And when people do this, they often realize sometimes the evening can be quite long. Like if your bedtime is

quite long. Like if your bedtime is 10:30 or 11:00 p.m. and you get off work at 5:30, well, we've got 5 hours to do our various things. I mean, to be with our family, do our chores, but maybe

have some discretionary time, too. But

then we have the sense of okay, here are the five hours I can work with as opposed to there is some vague ending to the day that I have no idea what it is.

>> Well, the the the vague ending of the day is whenever I get through the to-do list, which is irrationally long and most of it is not critically important to me anyway or going to make me happy.

And so I can see how not having an end to the day that you're intentional around creates this nebulous thing

around time. Wow, that's pretty easy.

around time. Wow, that's pretty easy.

Just pick a bedtime. So if you already pick a bedtime, cuz I this is one of those areas of my life that when my life is working, I actually get to bed very early. And I'm the kind of person that

early. And I'm the kind of person that my rule is if I want 8 hours of sleep, I need to be kind of in that bed around 9 hours, that give or take, right? And so

the math is pretty easy. It gives me an end time. If you're somebody like me who

end time. If you're somebody like me who already kind of has a consistent bedtime, how do you take this rule a step further?

I'd love for people to develop a good morning routine. Okay, now I will caveat

morning routine. Okay, now I will caveat this that morning routines sometimes get a bad reputation because if we're talking about all the productivity bros, they have these like three-hour morning routines right?

>> They don't have children.

>> They don't have children and like a normal job that I can tell, right? So

you they're getting up and doing a 90minute workout and some sort of cold plunge and like 30 minutes of meditation. That's

great for them. Great for them. For

those of us with a normal life, >> those of us with a normal life, we can have more of a bite-sized morning routine because mornings still are a great time for getting stuff done.

Often, this is when people can have time for themselves before everybody else wants a piece of you, right?

>> So, this is great time for things that life has a way of crowding out. But

again, it may not be a ton of time. So,

if you can even just get 20 minutes for yourself in the morning, you can ask, "Well, what would I like to do with it?"

And here's a real insight for people that maybe they haven't considered. It

doesn't actually have to be the same thing every day. So maybe three mornings you write in a journal. Three mornings

you get up and do some sort of strength workout.

The seventh day you rest. But now you have a morning routine. And it's

something that feels like you have taken time for yourself at the beginning of the day. And that victory can propel you

the day. And that victory can propel you through to the rest of the day. You

know, one of the things that you write about in your bestselling book, Tranquility by Tuesday, is the fact that bedtime is the adult version of sleeping

in as a kid. This luxury that we can give to ourselves. We get more energy when we get regular sleep.

>> Right. And one of the reasons people stay up late is because they feel like they didn't get enough free time.

>> Yes.

>> During the day. Yes.

>> That's classic revenge bedtime procrastination. Like I did everything

procrastination. Like I did everything for everyone else today. I didn't have any time for me. Now the house is quiet.

Now my boss isn't pinging me. I can do what I want.

>> Yes.

>> Right. So I'm going to sit here and scroll and go for 3 hours.

>> I want everyone to have free time elsewhere in your schedule. Right. And I

promise you it is possible. And when you start making time for yourself elsewhere during the day, when you have time for your hobbies, when you have time for your friends, when you have downtime,

you don't feel quite that same need to procrastinate bedtime in order to claim just a little bit of time for yourself.

Instead, you can view it as a gift to yourself that you are giving your body the sleep you need. Let me just make sure I understand this because I think this is really important.

You're saying that if we can find pockets of time during the day where we can insert a sense of control or find 30

minutes to relax or to take a walk or do something that like brings you a little bit of joy, right? You find that you insert it during the day. When you get to that moment at night where the house

is quiet, you're not going to have that sense that you had no time to yourself today. So, you're going to be less

today. So, you're going to be less likely to waste 3 hours doing nothing.

>> Absolutely.

>> Oh, I love this. So, you conducted a time use study to get to these nine rules of time management. Can you tell me about the time use? What What does time use study mean? What is that, Laura?

>> Yeah. Well, a time use study is when you look at how people spend their time. And

I've done a lot of projects looking at people's time over the years. I found

you can't just ask people how they spend their time. I mean, one of the first

their time. I mean, one of the first problems is people don't know there are 168 hours in a week, right? So, if you don't even know what the denominator is on the fraction, you're just guessing at the numerator for different things. I

mean, what proportion of my time do I spend in the car? What proportion of my time do I spend working? What proportion

of my time do I spend on housework or on leisure activities? I don't know. If you

leisure activities? I don't know. If you

don't know what the denominator is in the fraction, you are just guessing. And

so people will tell you all sorts of stories about where their time goes [snorts] and they are almost always inaccurate. So you need to actually have

inaccurate. So you need to actually have people keep track of their time um in a little bit more granular way. So I've

done a lot of these over the years. But

the nine rules that I am talking about today [snorts] came out of the recognition from doing many of these time diary studies and talking with people about their time and people would

ask for advice. And yet I seem to be telling people the same things over and over again. And so I uh sort of honed

over again. And so I uh sort of honed these down into a list of nine rules that uh seemed to be universally applicable.

But, you know, you don't want to just tell somebody like this is what I think you should do. If I'm going to give somebody advice, I want to have at least

some sense that it actually works. So, I

recruited about 150 people to try out these nine rules over the course of nine weeks. They would learn a rule every

weeks. They would learn a rule every week.

>> I would measure them on various dimensions. At the start of the week, at

dimensions. At the start of the week, at the end of the week, at the start of the nine weeks, at the end of the nine weeks, see how it went. So, nine weeks, nine rules, 150 people, all applying.

And what happened? The good news is they felt better about their time. Their

general time satisfaction scores rose 16% over the course of 9 weeks. Um,

their satisfaction with how they spent time yesterday rose 17% over the course of the nine weeks. And maybe that doesn't sound like a lot, but you know, if somebody offered me like, "Hey,

Laura, you're going to feel 16% better."

Like, that sounds good to me. You know,

it's it's it's not nothing. Well, and

also it builds Yeah. on itself. Let's

move on to rule number two. Rule number

two is Oh, I love this one. Plan on

Fridays. What do you mean plan on Fridays?

>> The rule to plan on Fridays is really two rules. And the first and most

two rules. And the first and most important is to plan.

>> Plan what? What am I planning?

>> Everybody needs a designated weekly planning time.

>> Okay.

>> Where they look forward to the next week and ask both what needs to happen, but also what they want to see happen. What

is most important to you professionally and personally over the next week? When

roughly can it happen? What logistical

challenges need to be worked out for all this to take place?

>> Okay.

>> Right. Everyone needs to follow this.

So, so just so I know what I'm doing cuz I know the person listening is somebody who's like, "Okay, tell me what to do.

>> Tell me what to do."

>> So, I am planning the week. So, I'm

looking ahead at the next week and I'm asking myself two questions. What needs

to happen and what do I want to have happen?

>> Absolutely. You can ask yourself looking forward to the next week, what is most important to me? And I recommend people look in three categories.

>> Okay. What are they?

>> Career.

>> Okay. Relationships

and self. And so, you can make yourself a threecategory list of your priorities for the upcoming week. Now, I know everyone listening to this is like, "Well, work to-dos. I know what those

are over the next week. I've got my head around that idea." You know, and and probably you roughly know what's important for you to do in in your work over the next week.

>> Maybe. Maybe. But people like relationships, self, what is this? But

we are people with complex lives.

>> Yeah.

>> We have a lot going on. So, we also need to ask what is most important to us for relationships with family and friends.

You know, what am I what do I need to do over the next week? What do I want to do over the next week in that category?

>> And then self. What is most important or meaningful to have happen over the next week for your own personal spiritual, mental, emotional, physical health? And

making a threecategory list as you are planning your week does something really good, which is that it is very hard to make a three category list and leave one of the categories blank. Oh, our brains

don't work that way. like I have to put something in each of these categories, right? There's a category. I have to

right? There's a category. I have to fill it in.

>> Yeah.

>> And so that right there is going to nudge you to have a more balanced life, right? That you are going to set a

right? That you are going to set a priority for your relationships. You

will set a priority for your own personal self. And the sheer exercise of

personal self. And the sheer exercise of doing that over time can make life feel better. So, if I'm looking ahead at the

better. So, if I'm looking ahead at the week and I'm asking myself, what is important to me in career, relationships, and self that I want to make time for? What if you see a

schedule and you're like, I have no time. Like, we're not doing that yet.

time. Like, we're not doing that yet.

We're just asking ourselves, what is actually important in these three categories? Correct.

categories? Correct.

>> And there might be something that's already on the calendar that is important to you. Okay? And and

sometimes it's recasting something, right? It's that you look forward to the

right? It's that you look forward to the week and you are seeing that you are meeting with someone at work who is a new hireer that you would like to mentor. You think she's a really awesome

mentor. You think she's a really awesome person. You're excited about it. You can

person. You're excited about it. You can

see great things happening for her. When

you see that meeting coming up, that can be a priority for you. You be like, "Oh, I really want to focus during this meeting and not just get through the Jones proposal while we're talking together. and we're going to talk about

together. and we're going to talk about what she sees herself doing and any ideas I have for her um for doing that.

And that right there can elevate this random meeting to something important and you approach it with an entirely different perspective.

>> I love that. Okay, so I I get the planning. That's easy. But now what day

planning. That's easy. But now what day am I doing? You said Friday.

>> Friday.

>> Why Friday? If you already have a weekly planning time that is working for you and it is not Friday, don't let Laura tell you to do anything differently, right? I want people to do what works

right? I want people to do what works for them. So, I know a lot of people

for them. So, I know a lot of people plan on Sundays. Some people plan on Monday mornings. If it is working for

Monday mornings. If it is working for you, that is great.

>> Okay? But if you don't have a designated weekly planning time or you've noticed some trouble with the time that you do have, here's the case for Fridays.

>> Okay?

>> Make it cuz I do it on Sundays and I'm starting to realize maybe it's amping anxiety.

>> I don't You're a productive person, so probably it's working for you. But

here's the upside of Friday.

>> I know. I think I might want to move to Fridays, >> especially Friday afternoon. Most people

are not doing anything of consequence.

>> What are you saying to me right now?

>> You are sliding into the weekend.

>> I am. It's Friday afternoon. Why are we even >> Why are we even here, right? Um and so if you are just wasting that time, counting the minutes until you can clock out,

>> you may as well repurpose some of this time for planning, right? You can take what might have been wasted time and turn it into some of your most productive minutes of the week. Planning

on Friday means you can start Monday morning knowing what you need to do.

People mostly have a a burst of energy at the start of things versus at the end of things. So, you'll be able to use all

of things. So, you'll be able to use all of Monday.

>> I love that. If you find out in the course of your planning that you need to make an appointment somewhere or you need to set up a meeting with someone, >> you are much more likely to get them on

Friday afternoon versus Sunday, which maybe people will take your calls on Sunday, Mel, but a lot of people don't have that. So,

have that. So, >> no. You know what I end up doing, Laura?

>> no. You know what I end up doing, Laura?

Is I make a to-do list.

>> Mhm.

>> And now I have to remember to do something that I could have done Friday afternoon while I was planning instead of pretending to work from 3:00 to 5:00.

>> Absolutely. You're a genius.

>> Here's one last reason though. I think

this is even more important.

>> Okay.

>> Even people who love their jobs.

Sunday afternoon, Sunday evening, start feeling a little bit of trepidation, right? The Sunday scaries.

right? The Sunday scaries.

>> Why do we have that?

>> You know there is all this stuff waiting for you on Monday morning.

>> Uhhuh.

>> But you don't know how you're going to deal with it.

>> Yeah. And so in the back of your brain, you are working through all the scenarios, working through your to-do list, thinking about what am I going to

do when I get there. If you end work on Friday afternoon with a plan for the next week, you can actually relax and

enjoy your weekend. Uh, you just made the case for planning on Friday afternoons at 300 p.m. I am sold. I am

moving from Sundays to Fridays immediately. I love this. It makes so

immediately. I love this. It makes so much sense. I especially love the fact

much sense. I especially love the fact that you can knock things off the to-do list by making calls and appointments then well you can reach people. That is

so smart. And then you know the simple things that you could do over the weekend that set you up because you're not panicking on Sunday because you're leaving it to there. Oh my god, this is genius.

>> Wonderful. Hope it works for you. You'll

have to let me know.

>> I will def I'm certain it's going to work for me. I don't even need to let you know. I'm going to tell you right

you know. I'm going to tell you right now. It's already working, Laura. I'm

now. It's already working, Laura. I'm

doing it.

>> Excellent.

>> So, I have a couple questions because as you were talking about the fact that you have people basically write down how they're spending their time. I thought to

myself, you're right. I have no idea how I spend my time. Like, if I were to try to explain that to you, I would imagine that I would get it completely wrong.

Like, if I thought about, well, how much time do I spend on my phone? I'm always

shocked when I look at how much time I've actually spent. How much time did you spend working? How much I I I don't even know.

>> What are some of the most surprising things >> that you learned as a researcher looking at people's documenting of their time?

Like what's the disconnect between what we think we're doing and what people are actually doing?

>> Well, the good news is people's lives tend not to look as bad as they might think they do. Um we have a tendency to overestimate things we don't want to do and we underestimate things we do want

to do.

>> So give me an example.

>> So many people overestimate how many hours they are working.

>> Really?

>> Yeah. And obviously if you're getting paid by the hour, you know how many hours you are working. But if you are not getting paid by the hour, um there's a little bit of a tendency to one up everyone else over just how many hours

you are working. And perhaps you've heard some of these conversations particularly in people in intense industries. Everyone's talking about

industries. Everyone's talking about their 80our work weeks, right? Or very,

very few people actually work 80 hours a week. It's usually quite a bit less. Um,

week. It's usually quite a bit less. Um,

people tend to sleep more than they actually think they do. Huh. Um, because

we have a tendency to view our worst nights as typical. We're always looking at that crunched Tuesday as opposed to adding in the sleep that might happen over the weekend or over a holiday or

something like that. And so people's sleep over the course of a week tends to be more than the mental picture.

>> Well, that's true because you think about what just happened yesterday and if you're time starved or crunched or overwhelmed or stressed out like I am cuz I didn't get through the to-do list which was completely unrealistic and

then I overestimated how much I'm working cuz I'm always thinking about work but I might not actually be working. What else did you find in these

working. What else did you find in these studies that might be bad news?

Well, people have a trouble estimating time in general.

>> Okay.

>> And the problem with that is either you try and cram too much into a day >> and it doesn't happen >> because the rules of time are strictly enforced and no one gets more than 24

hours in a day much as you might wish to have more and biologically we can't be awake for all those 24 hours either. Um,

so time estimation is hard in general and and that's one of the reasons people feel like they are constantly behind is because they're overestimating what they can get done in a day. I mean the good news though is we tend to underestimate

what we can do in the long haul. So

that's uh good. But the here's here's a positive thing. Okay. People often tell

positive thing. Okay. People often tell themselves stories about their lives um because we have narratives about our time. So, one story I hear a lot um

time. So, one story I hear a lot um particularly from women who work full-time um is that I never see my family,

>> right? Like, I'm working full-time,

>> right? Like, I'm working full-time, therefore I'm never seeing my family.

It's right there in the name full-time, [snorts and laughter] but there's 168 hours in a week. If

you're working 40, if you're working a little more than 40, there are still quite a few hours left over. People will

track their time and they are amazed at how much time they are spending with their families. I had one woman tell me,

their families. I had one woman tell me, "I used to feel guilt. I don't feel guilt anymore." I'm like, "That's a good

guilt anymore." I'm like, "That's a good reason to track your time." Did you have any takeaway when you did these time

studies with everybody in terms of how much free time or pockets of time there actually was as a general rule that most people were like, "Oh, wow. I've found

on average three hours every week or something like that. Was there an insight around the amount of time that people found?

>> I believe most people can find about an hour a day.

>> An hour a day.

>> Mhm.

>> An hour a day.

>> An hour a day.

>> If you think about >> like in in like in a compact hour or like it is not, but but some of them might be longer chunks than others.

There often are at least let's say 30 minutes before you go to bed at night.

Like if you've organized your life that you can read for 30 minutes before you go to bed. Um maybe it's that you use 15 minutes on a lunch break for something

that is enjoyable to you and you know 15 minutes to eat. Maybe it is a pocket of 15 minutes somewhere else. You know the kids are distracted uh while you know at the house and you can you can seize that

time for doing something you'd enjoy instead of just scrolling around on your phone. These little bits of time do add

phone. These little bits of time do add up. And you know, we can when people

up. And you know, we can when people start using these chunks of time for things that they enjoy.

>> Sometimes it lights a fire under them to go find bigger chunks of time. You know,

you start reading a really good book in 20 minutes, you don't want to stop. In

20 minutes, you're like, "Well, let me go see. Can I find an hour somewhere?"

go see. Can I find an hour somewhere?"

And I Yes, >> it's a good hunt. It might be a challenging hunt depending on what time of life you are in, but I think we can make it work. Well, what I love about it is you're starting to wake up to the

importance of how you spend your time.

And once you start protecting it and you start filling it with things that you enjoy, you mention a good book and we've all had that experience where you're reading a great book and you just want to get back to it. You can see how that

starts to build. The positive things that you're adding in make you want to find more pockets of time to add in. So,

you might try that. If you're telling yourself the story that I have no control over my time whatsoever, no discretionary time, pick up some sort of, you know, got to find out what happens book, start reading it and you

might start to see that there are a few more minutes that you can decide what to do with. And you know, if you're

do with. And you know, if you're listening and watching right now and you have a recommendation for a page turner, please put it in the comments below so that we all have a running list that we've crowdsourced of those books that

you just can't put down cuz that is the perfect example of how when it matters to you and you're present to it, you will find the time.

>> I recall, I mean, it was something like 20 years ago now, but I was uh reading the Da Vinci Code, which you know, well known for being a page turner. And

somehow I found whatever it takes like 10 hours to read this book over the course of like 3 days [laughter] and it's like where did I have 10 hours of free time? Somehow I had 10 hours of

free time? Somehow I had 10 hours of free time. Uh your point though that

free time. Uh your point though that you're challenging us to really confront in ourselves is you probably have 10 hours of free time in the next 3 days if you got serious about finding it.

>> Absolutely.

>> And that's the point. The point is not about the fact that you don't have a lot of demands in your life. You're

acknowledging the challenge of living in the modern world and the fact that the person that's listening, myself, we have big productive lives. We want to feel engaged in our lives and we feel like we

have no time. You're here saying actually you do. I want you to hunt for it.

>> Yes. What I'm gathering for myself as I listen to you, even though I'm very familiar with your research, is my narrative about my life and time is

about the things I have to do, which of course sets you up to feel like you have no power. And when you flip it and start

no power. And when you flip it and start to go, okay, there are things I have to do, but what is it that I would also want to be doing this week? And how can

I find some time in this week in order to fit some of it in? You start to feel more empowered.

>> Yes.

>> This is so good, Laura. So good. You

feel much more empowered. And the good news is it doesn't even have to be a lot of time. I've seen people's lives

of time. I've seen people's lives transformed by finding an hour to do something that they enjoy in the course of the week. And suddenly this becomes something they are looking forward to.

And it changes their narrative. My life

is no longer out of my control at the mercy of everyone else. I am the kind of person who makes space for things that are fun for me. And that's just a much more empowering narrative. I love that.

It's true because if you have nothing to look forward to and you're constantly telling yourself that you have no time and things are out of control and you're pushing off the little things that actually bring you a little bit of joy,

it would make a big difference to flip this. And that's where these nine rules

this. And that's where these nine rules come in. So rule number three is move by

come in. So rule number three is move by 300 p.m. What does that mean? So

300 p.m. What does that mean? So

physical activity, yes, is a known energy booster, mood booster. Okay? And

one of my favorite studies ever. This

wasn't one of mine, um, but somebody else did. They had people rate their

else did. They had people rate their energy in the course of the day on a 1 to 10 point scale. And when people were down at a three, so they were really dragging, they had them go do a short

burst of physical activity. So I think running up and down the stairs in your office building for for 5 minutes or so.

>> Does it have to be cardio? Like could we take a brisk walk?

>> Well, you could take a brisk walk.

Absolutely. I'm a big fan of a brisk walk.

>> You know, I'm anti-curio. [laughter]

For those of us that are anti moving your body in some way that will will get you get you a little bit of activity there. So anyway, these people were

there. So anyway, these people were running up and down the stairs for for five minutes.

>> I'm not doing that cuz my face is going to be like a tomato.

>> We're going to get you outside walking around for five minutes and had them rate their energy afterwards. And

basically they were around a nine.

>> Wait, so you can go from like a three on energy to a nine in just 5 minutes.

>> And you think this is crazy cuz like you just ran up and down the stairs, right?

Shouldn't you be exhausted? But it turns out that physical activity, short bursts of at least before we have time to, you know, completely be exhausted like a marathon,

makes us have more energy. And even an hour later, people were still rating their energy level around a six. So

short bursts of physical activity boost your mood, give you more energy. You

think about how much time and effort and money people spend to make themselves feel happier and more energetic. short

bursts of physical activity can do it for free, right? And why 3M? Well, if

you do track your energy during the day, many people in the morning, 8 a.m.,

they've had that first cup of coffee, they can conquer the world, >> right?

>> After lunch, you're not conquering the world anymore. You're kind of taking a

world anymore. You're kind of taking a nap at that point. You're

>> pretending to work.

>> You're pretending to work. 3 PM is when people reach a low point uh in terms of their measured energy levels during the workday. So if you haven't moved by 3

workday. So if you haven't moved by 3 PM, that is a very good time to get up, go take that brisk walk outside. You

will come back actually able to focus for the rest of the day. Um and and hopefully get more done. Now, that's the obvious reason to to to do this rule is because physical activity is good,

right? Taking short breaks is good.

right? Taking short breaks is good.

>> Well, and energy is good.

You also write in the book that quote exercise doesn't take time it makes time. What does that mean?

time. What does that mean?

>> So the time you spend taking care of yourself and doing things like exercising, getting enough sleep within reason, this time will be paid back to you >> in terms of more energy.

>> Because when you have more energy, you can get more done. I'm sure we've all had the experience of a task taking us 2 hours instead of one because we were so lethargic. Whereas if you tackled it at

lethargic. Whereas if you tackled it at a time of day when you had more energy, you get through it. Um the people who did that short burst of physical activity, if you think about it, they took five minutes to exercise,

>> right? But I am guessing they got more

>> right? But I am guessing they got more done in 55 minutes where their energy was north of a six than they would have gotten done in an hour where their energy was a three.

>> [snorts] >> Well, not only that, here's what I also want to unpack that I'm realizing because so much of your work and the way

that your research has you look at time and experience time differently.

What I'm gathering from this that exercise doesn't take time, it makes time. Is

that if you take it as fact, because it's true, most of us have the experience that by 3:00 basically the gas tank is at zero. And when your

energy is low, you don't feel like doing anything. And so you leave work feeling

anything. And so you leave work feeling low. And then you arrive home and you

low. And then you arrive home and you feel like drained from work because your energy is at a zero and you're still on empty, which makes it more likely for

you to waste time on nonsense because you have no energy to do things for yourself that would actually make you feel better. And so then you blame it on

feel better. And so then you blame it on work that work drained you. And so what you're basically saying is no, no, no, no, no. If you understand that moving

no, no. If you understand that moving your body, yeah, it might take 5 minutes to take a walk around the block, but I always feel better after I do that in between interviews on the podcast, for

example, and I do feel more energized.

And it's not just that I'm more productive at work. I leave work feeling like work is done and then I feel like I have a little bit more time. Is that is that also why this works?

>> Yes. when you can use that, you know, the hours of 3 to 5 to actually get things done. Well, you get more done.

things done. Well, you get more done.

You don't have as much leftover work.

When you were leaving work, you don't feel the need to work longer because you didn't get it done. Um, and it changes the whole feel of your day. But this is about being strategic about time, right?

The deeper reason for this rule is not just because I think it's great for people to go walk around the block for 5 to 10 minutes in the middle of the afternoon, even though I think that will be a life-changing habit if you build it into your day.

>> It's because, you know, many of us spend a lot of our days sitting >> and you know, kind of going from meeting to meeting or things like that.

>> Saying where can I put in a 5 to 10 minute break in my day requires you to look at your day. It requires you to think about when things are going to happen and when you can take control of

a little bit of your time. It means you look forward to the day and see, well, when is my energy going to be low?

>> When can I proactively plan in a break?

And you become more like the general surveying the battlefield, right? As

opposed to just the soldier marching through it. You have more agency. And

through it. You have more agency. And

that might seem silly for a 5 to 10 minute walk, but I promise that mindset is helpful for everything. I don't think that's silly at all because if you're somebody who's a teacher or you work in

a hospital or you're a first responder or you have a retail job or like you run your own thing, I I think a lot of us have this experience

that the second that you look at the first work email or you walk into the office or you start your work day, all bets are off. You're in complete

reaction mode. And

reaction mode. And when you're in reaction mode, just like answering emails and running from one thing to the next, you're not actually present to your time or in control of

it. And that's very draining. What

it. And that's very draining. What

you're basically saying is by simply saying, "Okay, I'm going to find a 5 to 10 minute slot in my workday to get outside or to do a couple squats or

anything. take a break for crying out

anything. take a break for crying out loud and get out of the chair and stand up and walk around the floor of the hospital for a minute. You're taking

control of your time and that gives you a sense that you're not just at the effect of everything around you. Is that

what you're saying?

>> Yes. And I know some people's jobs are way more reactive than others, right?

You know, there are jobs where you don't have a lot of control over what you are doing minute for minute. But even if you're in the sort of job where you know you get two 10-minute breaks a day when your manager tells you to go take your

break, you can still think, well, what could I do during those two 10-minute breaks that would be rejuvenating? Now,

maybe if you've been standing on your feet, you know, you're chopping lumber for a job or something like that that you probably don't need to go take a walk, but you can still think about what would make me feel more energized. And

maybe it's reading a really good book for 10 minutes or it's calling a friend for 10 minutes as opposed to just picking up our phone and scrolling around. Well, I think that's the point

around. Well, I think that's the point is that, and this is your overall point, because we're not present to the 168 hours that we have every week and how

we're utilizing that time, we are not protecting these pockets of time for things that are important. And

therefore, we reflexively fill it with nonsense by looking at our phone or doing other things that we don't even remember.

>> When we think we have no time, we don't ask what we'd like to do with our time.

Yes. But then when time does appear, we do whatever is easiest, which tends to be picking up the phone and scrolling around. Whereas when you have the story

around. Whereas when you have the story that I do have some time, I do have these small chunks of time that I can exercise discretion over, then you start to ask, well, what would I like to do with it? What would make me feel happy?

with it? What would make me feel happy?

What would make me feel energized? What

would make me feel rejuvenated? And

that's just a much more powerful question. I can give you a very simple

question. I can give you a very simple example of one change that I've made that illustrates this point. I didn't

even realize it relates to your research. When I'm standing in a line at

research. When I'm standing in a line at a grocery store, I use that time to

close my eyes and just practice the 4x4 by4 breathing. You know, you breathe in

by4 breathing. You know, you breathe in 4 seconds, hold it 4 seconds, breathe out. It's and I don't reach for my

out. It's and I don't reach for my phone. And I cannot tell you the

phone. And I cannot tell you the difference that what seems dumb little habit of learning how to stand in a line

and not distract myself and just be present to my breathing. How much peace that is brought into my life and how even in that moment it's almost like

time expands.

And the old me would stand in a line and get pissed off and frustrated and you know I'd be let them let them let and then I'd be looking at my phone but realizing no no no this is a pocket

of time that you're talking about and if I'm aware that it's a pocket of time and that these small moments matter and what I fill it with can either bring me joy

and peace or it can just be more mindlessness and distraction.

you you do feel better and they add up.

I love it. My iPhone tells me on Sunday morning how much time I have spent on it in the course of the week and so it sends me this note on Sunday morning of how much time I have spent. It's a bit of a, you know, moment of reckoning, I

guess. Um, but it's always higher than I

guess. Um, but it's always higher than I think it is. And it's because of moments like that, right? That you're standing in line at the grocery store or waiting to pick up a kid somewhere. You're

waiting for a phone call to start. And

what do we do at that time? We pull out our phones, start scrolling around.

Nothing happened on the phone that you needed to look at. Even if something important is happening, if it you could have looked at it at a time when you were able to deal with it, right? The

worst is you're getting some email that actually is important and you're like, "Well, I can't deal with it while I'm in the line at the supermarket." So now, not only am I uh still in line at the supermarket, I'm feeling anxious about the fact that I have this hot email here.

>> Yes.

>> Uh so, you know, consciously using bits of time for bits of joy will change your life.

>> I agree with you. I really do. Your

fourth rule of productivity is three times a week is a habit. What does that mean? Three times a week is a habit.

mean? Three times a week is a habit.

>> So we think of our lives in days, but we actually live our lives in weeks.

>> What do you mean? We talked about 168 hours is the cycle of life as we actually live it.

>> Tuesday and Saturday both occur just as often. Both have the same number of

often. Both have the same number of hours. And yet when you look at people's

hours. And yet when you look at people's lives, they're often very different on on those two days. But the reason we need to think of our lives in terms of weeks is it allows us to see that even

if things don't happen daily, >> they can still be a regular part of our lives. Well, this makes so much sense

lives. Well, this makes so much sense because I am one of those people that thinks in absolutes got to get to walk in every day. Got to make sure like and and if I miss a day or miss two days or something happens now, it's no longer a thing.

>> People say to me, there are not enough hours in the day to get to everything I want to get to.

>> Yes.

>> And I totally agree. There are not enough hours in the day to get to absolutely everything you want to get to. But we don't live our lives in days.

to. But we don't live our lives in days.

We live our lives in weeks. And by

looking at the whole of the week, we see just how much space there is. So there's

many things that people say they would like to do in their lives, they'd like to have in their lives, they would like to do more of in their lives and then they feel discouraged because they get to the end of the day and it didn't happen, right? you know, and and but

happen, right? you know, and and but when I have people look at their time and look at their schedules and thinking about these things that they want to do more of, often times people have done

them once or twice in the course of the week, it feels like they never do them because they're looking at life in terms of days. And so most days, if you were

of days. And so most days, if you were doing something once or twice a week, well, you didn't do it. So, you feel like a failure. Like, oh, I'd like to have family dinners, but we didn't do it tonight, Tuesday night. So, I'm a

failure. I want to exercise more. and I

failure. I want to exercise more. and I

got to the end of this busy w Wednesday Wednesday and I didn't exercise. I am a failure. That is not a helpful

failure. That is not a helpful conversation to be having with yourself.

Here's the thing. If you're already doing something once or twice a week, it is pretty easy to get to three, you just have to add one more time, maybe. So, if

you want to have family dinners, but between your work schedule, the kids activity schedules, you're not all sitting down 6:00 p.m. Monday to Friday.

Nobody is unveiling a pot roast. Norman

Rockwell style, right? But you look at your schedule and say, "Well, okay, actually, we're mostly having pizza together on Friday nights. You know,

we're often having pancakes together on Sunday mornings." Now, all we need to do

Sunday mornings." Now, all we need to do is find one more time.

>> So, you look at the schedule for the upcoming week. You see, hey, most of us

upcoming week. You see, hey, most of us are going to be there on Tuesday night after a certain time. Maybe if we hold dinner till 7:30 on Tuesday, we can all

eat together. And now you are a family

eat together. And now you are a family that eats together regularly. Three

times a week is a habit. It happens

three times a week. It can be part of your identity. And I think the reason I

your identity. And I think the reason I came to this rule is one of the occupational hazards of writing about time management [laughter] is that people want to tell you about

their great daily habits, right? You

know, they're like, "Oh, I tell you about my great daily habit." I'm like, "Okay, let's hear about your great daily habit." And then people are telling me

habit." And then people are telling me about this and it turns out that they usually do this habit Monday [clears throat] through Friday but that is not daily that is five times a week

right and you get dig a little bit deeper and you know they're not doing it on vacations they're not doing it on holidays they're not so people are telling themselves they have this daily

habit because it happens most of the time Monday through Friday but I think when we dig down we say you know that's probably three or four times a week so let's just start with the assump that we're trying to get to three or four

times a week. Three times a week as a habit. It's so much more doable. Can be

habit. It's so much more doable. Can be

part of our identity. I love that. And

what I also love is that it builds with the plan on Fridays cuz if you are taking Friday afternoon to look ahead and one of the things that brings you

joy is to have dinner with family or friends and you can go, "Oh, okay. There

are two nights where this works. Where

can I find a third?" Now you're making it a habit. And so these things build on themselves. Very very cool. Rule number

themselves. Very very cool. Rule number

five of your productivity rules is create a backup slot. What what is it's like a rain date for your life? Like

what what is that?

>> Rain dates are one of the most brilliant scheduling inventions ever. If people

are invited to an outdoor event, say in the summer, [snorts] >> the existence of a rain date, the hosts are acknowledging right there, that there is much that can go predictably

wrong outside, right? It might rain, but by setting a rain, you increase the chances that the event happens even if not when originally planned. And I think

there are a lot of things in life that we want to get to, but life happens and so we can't do it at the time we originally planned. But that doesn't

originally planned. But that doesn't mean we don't get to do it. We can

create a rain date for it, right? We can

create an example of how this works.

>> Well, let's say, >> is this only with the big stuff?

>> Well, let's say you want to exercise three times a week, right?

>> And you carve out time somehow. You

know, Tuesday, Thursday, and Saturday, you're going to do it. Then what

happens? Tuesday, school nurse calls.

>> Yeah. Oh, yeah. Uh-huh.

>> And you have to go pick up your kid and the entire schedule for the day is off, right? You're like, "Well, I just can't

right? You're like, "Well, I just can't exercise three times a week." But what if we set a backup slot for one of those times? We're going to have time carved

times? We're going to have time carved out in our schedules on Tuesday, Thursday, Saturday, and Sunday for a workout. Now,

workout. Now, >> you don't have to do it.

>> You don't have to. Yeah. If the time is open, it's open. You do something else with it if you want. Right. But when one of those slots is taken away from you, >> yeah, >> you still have time. We should get in the habit of creating more open space in

general >> in our schedules because that way when life happens, there is a place for things to go. So if

you are, you know, have all these things that need to happen on Tuesday at work and again the school nurse calls, you have to go pick up your kid. Where do

all those things go? Well, this is you know people out the window or people start borrowing time from the next week but next week is going to have crises of its own.

>> Yes.

>> Whereas if you have open time on Friday let's say >> the things that didn't happen Tuesday can go Friday. You are still on track you are not borrowing time from the next

week. And when you have open space and

week. And when you have open space and things don't keep festering on the to-do list because even when life happens, you can get to the things that happened and the things you want to do. You start

feeling less overwhelmed, right? Life

starts feeling more calm like when you say you're going to do something in the week, you know probably it will happen because even if it can't happen at the time I originally planned, I have a rain date for it.

>> Yeah.

>> Right. And life starts feeling more calm. you feel like you are making

calm. you feel like you are making progress on your goals and that's a much better place to be starting from.

>> Rule number six is one big adventure, one little adventure. What What does that even mean? How do you do that?

>> So, as adults, a lot of our life starts to feel pretty routine. You get up in the morning, get everyone off to school and work, collect everyone at the end of the day, go through the, you know, cycle

of dinner or baths or homework, bed, wake up in the morning, do it all over again right?

>> And you forgot laundry and scrolling.

We're going to put those in, too. But,

but, you know, days aren't really distinguishable from another. And if if too much of this stacks up, >> there's nothing wrong with routines. I

mean, routines make good choices automatic. So, I don't want to say that

automatic. So, I don't want to say that there's a problem with routines, but when too much of this sameness stacks up, whole years can disappear into these memory sink holes. You have no idea where the time went. But here's the

thing. We don't say where did the time

thing. We don't say where did the time go >> when we actually remember where the time went.

>> Okay, hold on. You don't say where did all the time go when you remember where the time went.

>> And the reason we remember our time is because we have created memories.

>> Okay. in our time. What creates

memories? Doing things that are novel or intense. Okay. All right. So, this led

intense. Okay. All right. So, this led me to this rule. One big adventure, one little adventure each week. So, each

week we are going to aim to do two things that are a little out of the ordinary.

>> Okay. And so, this would go into your Friday planning session.

>> Friday planning, we're going to say looking forward to the next week. We're

going to do three times a week as a habit. Where can I do things three times

habit. Where can I do things three times a week? But also, where can I build in

a week? But also, where can I build in one big adventure, one little adventure?

Okay. Now, before anyone complains, a big adventure doesn't mean you have to fly off to Italy. Though, if you do, great. I mean, I'm I'm here for it.

great. I mean, I'm I'm here for it.

That's wonderful. But I'm just talking about a couple hours. Maybe half a weekend day is a big adventure.

>> A little find that every week. A half a weekend day.

>> We'll get to that.

>> Okay, Laura. [laughter]

[gasps] >> And a little adventure could be even less. It can be less than an hour. So

less. It can be less than an hour. So

doable on a lunch break, maybe a weekday evening, just as long as it is something out of the ordinary.

>> Okay?

>> And this is a cadence that is enough to make the week feel different. You know,

this is the week that we went to the beach and went on that ferris wheel.

Okay?

>> This is the week where we tried that new gelato place. This is the week where I

gelato place. This is the week where I went to visit my friend in the next town over and we went to that used bookstore.

This is the week where the new colleague and I walked around the block at lunch together. Okay. All right. Those those

together. Okay. All right. Those those

are the kind of adventures we're talking.

>> Now, it's not a week like any other.

>> It is a week with things that we remembered >> because they were different.

>> And that can make time feel more rich and full. You know, it's true because so

and full. You know, it's true because so much of what you're doing in these strategies is just getting us to wake up and be aware that we do have

time and to look ahead and to be intentional about what we're adding into it. Because if we don't add in these

it. Because if we don't add in these little pockets, whether it's family dinners or for me the things that came to mind is I need to go to a bookstore and get a page turner so I have

something intentional to fill time with.

and there's a ice cream place that I want to try that's near the studios that I want to do one day this week. Uh cuz

that is something that I love. But that

when you really start to do these in small and big ways, you are reclaiming your time.

You are finding these pockets. And then

that has this ripple effect that because you're now looking forward to something this week, it shifts your mood and energy around it. We want to always have things that we are looking forward to.

And getting into this cadence where we are planning in adventures, things that you are genuinely looking forward to.

You're doing two a week. Well, think

about that. You've got a hundred things you are looking forward to in the course of the next year. You don't know what all of them are yet, but how exciting.

It changes our perspective on ourselves.

We're not just marching through the day.

>> Yeah.

>> Doing everything we have to do.

>> We're the kind of people who do cool stuff. How exciting is that? And I

stuff. How exciting is that? And I

notice you keep saying I'm the kind of person who There is something big that's shifting in the narrative and the story you tell yourself because if the story you tell yourself, which I did for most

of my life, I have no time. I'm behind.

I'm so stressed out. Like it's all for everybody else. I don't

everybody else. I don't that leads you down one direction. And

all of these nine little rules actually help you start telling a different story, which is I'm the kind of person that has a lot going on and I still make

time to do fun things. I'm the kind of person who has a lot that I need to do, but I still find time to take care of myself.

>> Once we have a story, >> yes, >> we look for evidence to support it.

And so if your story is I have no time whatsoever, could you find a couple moments during the day where you feel incredibly crunched, where you feel overwhelmed, where you feel behind? Absolutely.

>> All day long.

>> All day long. Anyone can find those points of evidence. But if you have a different story, I have a lot going on and I have time that I can choose how to spend it. Well, you start to see that 5

spend it. Well, you start to see that 5 minutes in between phone calls completely different. You start to see

completely different. You start to see the 15 minutes that you get home before the rest of your family completely differently. Now I have these pockets of

differently. Now I have these pockets of time that I can choose how to spend. I'm

the kind of person who makes great choices with this time. So I feel differently about my time in general.

>> Yeah. And I don't have to use it rushing the laundry through because I can do that when I'm distracted doing something else. I can take these 15 minutes and go

else. I can take these 15 minutes and go for a walk or sit down on the back deck or look by the window that's my favorite window, the apartment, and just take a minute because that's what's going to

make me feel good. Oh, I love how this builds on each other. Rule number seven, take one night for you. What What is the impact of carving out a night for you

going to do? I have to say this is the rule that I got the most push back from uh with busy people because what I want people to do is to take a couple hours a week could be a weekday evening but the

equivalent of a couple hours a week to do something that is not work that is not caring for family members and that

is intrinsically enjoyable for you.

So we are talking some sort of hobby more or less right. I sing in a choir.

Other people might play musical instruments or you know play pickle ball or anything like that. You can choose whatever you want that is intrinsically enjoyable to you. But I would really

like people to choose something that gets them out of the house at a certain time every week and that involves a commitment to other people.

>> Okay. Why? because that makes your fun rise up the hierarchy in your schedule.

So when I teach this rule to people, they're like, "Yes, I need more me time.

I'm going to take more bubble baths."

Like, okay, let's see how that how that plays out, right? Because, you know, you decide, I'm going to take a bubble bath at even if you give it a specific time, you say, "I'm going to take Wednesday

night at 7 p.m. I'm gonna have a bubble bath." What happens when work is running

bath." What happens when work is running late on Wednesday night?

>> I'm doing work. You're doing work. What

happens when your kid wants you to drive them to the mall at 7:00 p.m. on

Wednesday?

>> I'm driving them to the mall.

>> You're driving them to the mall. Things

that can happen whenever tend to happen never, right? Your bathtub isn't going

never, right? Your bathtub isn't going anywhere. So, you can always push it

anywhere. So, you can always push it forward. Whereas, if you decide that

forward. Whereas, if you decide that you're going to play in a string quartet and they meet at 7 p.m. on Wednesday and you don't show up, they're a string trio. We have a problem

here right?

>> Yes. So because of that, you will do a lot to make sure that you can be there at 7:00 p.m. on Wednesday. You have

worked out with a colleague that when work is running late on Wednesday, you will have covered for your colleague on Tuesday, so he covers for you on Wednesday. Yep. Right?

Wednesday. Yep. Right?

>> The [snorts] kid who wants you to drive them to the mall knows not to ask at 7:00 p.m. on Wednesday because the

7:00 p.m. on Wednesday because the answer is going to be no. Right? Because

it is a commitment to other people, you will do it. And that way you are building this act of self-care into your life.

>> Um, what is the excuse that people give you when they push back and are like, "A night for myself? I couldn't possibly do that. How's the house going to run?

that. How's the house going to run?

Who's going to take care of my like what do people say? Everything will fall apart without me." That is what people are basically saying. And this comes

from different perspectives. Sometimes

it's arrogance in disguise, right? That

nothing can function without me. Just

you can't hire good people these days, right? Like nobody can do anything what

right? Like nobody can do anything what I do at home. [snorts] But it also can be fear, right? Like well, if I'm not necessary for absolutely everything at work, like, well, what's the point of

me? They'll fire me tomorrow, right? Or

me? They'll fire me tomorrow, right? Or

if I acknowledge that people in my household can function without me, maybe they do things a little bit differently, but maybe they can function without me.

Then it feels like, well, what's the point of me?

But everyone has intrinsic worth apart from whatever you do. And I mean the truth is Earth is not going to crash into the sun if you take two hours to go play in your pickle ball league. Right?

For the vast majority of us, most things will not change if you take an hour or two away to go do something for yourself. Now, I'm not promising that

yourself. Now, I'm not promising that all the dishes will get done in exactly the way that you would have done them, but it won't be a crisis. the world will keep spinning

>> and what will the person who's resistant to going back to a religious service uh you know like on a Wednesday night or volunteering for hospice on a Thursday

what will happen in your life if you start to do this rule where you take one night for yourself this will allow you to see that you are not just a person

>> who works and has caregiving responsibilities you are a person who does awesome things in the world and this can totally transform people's lives. We've talked about it how it

lives. We've talked about it how it doesn't take much time >> to make life feel entirely different.

One story I remember for this um a woman who learned this rule. She was, you know, very busy, full-time job, spouse who worked, young kids. She decided to

start playing tennis on Tuesday night.

her husband had been encouraging her to find something she, you know, a hobby to to be less stressed and all that. First

time she comes home, her husband's like, "You're glowing.

You're glowing." All it took is a little more than an hour on a Tuesday night and it becomes like this tent post in the week. You build your life around that

week. You build your life around that that requirement that you be there because it changes how you view yourself. I think a lot of us have had

yourself. I think a lot of us have had an experience where you sort of feel like I don't even know who I am anymore.

And everything you're teaching us to me feels like a way to insert your spirit

back into the pockets of time that you can find when you get intentional.

because you're not going to be able to just take all 24 hours, but you can find 15 minutes, an hour here or there over the course of a week in order to start

to feel like yourself again.

>> Absolutely. And particularly when people are in phases of life like you have lots of young kids.

>> Yes.

>> Or you are caring for a family member who has a complicated medical condition.

I get it's not going to be easy >> to take this time, >> but if you get support from the other people in your life, I'm guessing you can make it happen. You can trade off

with your spouse. Like you offer to take Tuesday night, your spouse takes Wednesday night. Each of you gets one

Wednesday night. Each of you gets one night for you. If that is not in the cards, maybe you trade off with a friend or family member, right? Like your

neighbor takes the kids on Tuesday and you take the kids on Wednesday and each of you get a night off. And you know, I have people push back with this again with things like, well, I'm caring for, you know, a family member who has this

complicated medical condition. I can't

just walk off. I'm well, I'm not saying you can just walk off, right? We we do need to figure out the logistics, but it's kind of scary to me if nobody else can take care of this person, that's a

bad situation. Something could happen to

bad situation. Something could happen to you. We need backup systems in general.

you. We need backup systems in general.

Yeah.

>> To to make sure that uh people are are cared for. And and so if you have that

cared for. And and so if you have that mindset, I think you can figure out a way to to take an hour for yourself and it will it will change how you see time.

>> So tell me about rule number eight, which is give things less time.

>> So many of us start to feel like we are carrying a huge mental load, right?

There's all the things we need to remember to do and it's, you know, it adds up. The more complicated a life you

adds up. The more complicated a life you have, the more things there are. And

you'll be sitting there, you know, trying to focus on some deep work project. You're like, did I send in the

project. You're like, did I send in the permission slip? Did I, you know, answer

permission slip? Did I, you know, answer that uh invitation to the meeting on Friday? Did I book the tickets for that

Friday? Did I book the tickets for that trip next week? You know, all these things are in your brain.

>> You just made me remember that I >> all the things you didn't do today that you're supposed to >> say, "Oh my god, two weeks ago I donated to the local library. I still have not filled out the form. Now I got to write a note and tell [laughter] Chris." Okay.

Like I So, yes.

>> Yes. Yes. We're carrying this mental load. And you know there's been many

load. And you know there's been many interesting things written about who carries what proportion of the mental load and I I am I'm here for that but this is not about that. This is about saying whatever proportion you are

carrying. You can minimize the mental

carrying. You can minimize the mental cost by batching these things.

>> So instead of just doing it when you think of it you're working on a project you're like oh I need to send in that permission slip. just quick write it

permission slip. just quick write it down somewhere and get back right back to what you were doing. And then do all these little tasks at a certain low energy time, right? When it's not your prime time, maybe 400 p.m. in the

afternoon, take 30 minutes, plow through all of them so you're protecting your mental energy for the things that matter and you're still getting them done.

>> So, do you like have like a little notebook with you or a note card or how do you manage those little things?

>> I keep what I call a Friday punch list.

>> You keep a Friday punch list.

>> A Friday punch list. So a punch list, you know, you have a anyone had a huge home renovation project. At the end, they have all these tiny little tasks that they That's a punch list, okay, that the contractor has.

>> It's not something you want to punch yourself because looking at it, but no, it's a Friday punch list. And I put all these little tasks that aren't immediately timesensitive, like they didn't have to get done right that second, but they do need to get done at

some point, you know, in the next week or so. And then low energy time Friday,

or so. And then low energy time Friday, you know, planning the week, but I take a 30 minutes an hour and just try to plow through as many of these things as possible. And this does two things. I

possible. And this does two things. I

mean one >> it makes it take less time >> because when you are filling out three permission forms at one point as opposed to, you know, here and there and everywhere and ordering four birthday

party presents at the same point, you just achieve economies of scale. All of

this takes less time. But here's the thing. We often procrastinate other

thing. We often procrastinate other things we are doing, more difficult things we are doing by getting these easy wins. Like I'll be working on a

easy wins. Like I'll be working on a project. It's it's not coming. I really

project. It's it's not coming. I really

need to think about it. I'm like, or I could just order this birthday present.

>> It needs to happen at some point. Yes,

>> maybe I'll just go do that and get the satisfaction of crossing it off my list.

And I get it. I love crossing things off my list. Sometimes I add things to my

my list. Sometimes I add things to my to-do list just to cross them off. You

know, after I've even done them, I put them on the list just so I can cross them off. You're sick. You're sick in

them off. You're sick. You're sick in the head.

>> You've never done that. You've never

done that either. [laughter]

>> Well, I'm not that productive. That's

why.

>> So, you know, sometimes we want to deny ourselves the quick easy hit. Yes. That

quick victory so we can really wrestle with the more difficult stuff and then, you know, plow through all of it at some other point. Well, plus if I now go find

other point. Well, plus if I now go find the form for the library thing or I take time to text it to Chris, my husband, and make it his problem, it takes me

forever to get back to what I was doing.

And so, I can see how a punch list of all these little things that you do at that slot on Friday, couple things psychologically happen. I can see that

psychologically happen. I can see that when I give time to these things that pop in my mind, I don't feel in control of my time. But when I make a list and I

say, "Okay, this is important, but it's not important right now." I now suddenly feel like I'm the kind of person who

uses Laura Vanderam's research and I am in control of my time because this is not that important right now and I will remember to do it in the slot that it's

designated. So I can see how it changes

designated. So I can see how it changes the way that you think about yourself.

Rule number nine, tell me about effortful before effortless.

So there are two different kinds of fun.

Effortless fun is stuff that doesn't require you to plan ahead. You can do whenever, however much time you want.

You don't have to coordinate with anyone.

>> Give me an example. What is that?

>> Scrolling around on Instagram.

>> Oh god, [laughter] it's so true. Yes.

>> So in >> I don't have to plan to scroll on my phone.

>> Instagram doesn't care what you are wearing. You can do it for 2 minutes.

wearing. You can do it for 2 minutes.

You can do it for 20 minutes. You can do it for two hours. Whereas effortful fun requires a little bit more effort, right? So reading a book or calling a

right? So reading a book or calling a friend, doing a puzzle, doing a hobby.

>> And people always say, "Oh, I'd love to spend more time reading or talking with friends or doing a hobby if only I had the time." And yet you look at the

the time." And yet you look at the screen time function on your phone. You

may be spending 3 hours a day on your phone. I don't I where did that time

phone. I don't I where did that time come from? Well, it came in little bits

come from? Well, it came in little bits of time and it came at very low energy times >> and so it was easy and effortless and you did it.

>> Yeah.

>> So, I'm not saying don't scroll around on Instagram. We're both on Instagram. I

on Instagram. We're both on Instagram. I

would love to have people there. Um, but

challenge yourself >> to do just a little bit of effort full fun before the effortless. So, if you're picking up your phone when you are standing in line in the grocery store and you're not doing Mel's deep

breathing, if you are picking up your phone, put the Kindle app on your phone and read an ebook >> for 3 minutes. And then if you want to

stop and go on Instagram, great. Be my

guest. But one of two things will happen. One of which is that you will

happen. One of which is that you will keep reading the book because it was a good book and you want to see what happens. I mean, effortful fun is fun.

happens. I mean, effortful fun is fun.

It just takes a little bit of effort to do. going. Yeah.

do. going. Yeah.

>> Or you know, you will go do the effortless fun, but then at least you got to do both.

>> Yeah. I love that. Out of all of the rules that you talked about today, what do people resist doing the most and why?

>> I really do think it is the rule about taking one night for you.

>> It does seem impossible. Like I'm just going to say right now like one night a week, I don't know that I could find that. I really I was telling myself that

that. I really I was telling myself that story and then a couple years ago um I I used to sing in lots of choirs when I was younger and I decided I would like

to get back into it.

>> Okay. And I was tracking my time um and I looked at my schedule and I saw that a great many of my evenings were very nebulous. I mean it was half-heartedly

nebulous. I mean it was half-heartedly hanging out with the kids but also kind of wishing they would sometimes leave me alone so I could do other things.

Yeah, nothing much was happening. I was

like, "Okay, could I do that with the kids six nights a week and one night I do something different?"

>> So, I joined a choir meets 7:00 p.m. on

Thursday nights. There's nothing

flexible about being in a certain place at 7:00 p.m. on Thursday nights. Um, so

it hasn't been easy, but I have structured my life to make it happen.

And I think most people could do that.

Maybe it's not a weekday evening. Maybe

it's an hour on a Saturday morning.

>> Yep. Yep. But it's sometime during the course of the week for something. And if

you don't believe me, you don't believe me.

Just try it, okay, for a couple of weeks. And if Earth crashes into the

weeks. And if Earth crashes into the sun, I'm sorry. [laughter]

I'm sorry. But I'm guessing you will find out that life keeps functioning and then you can keep having your fun and taking one night for you and life will

feel different. I think life will not

feel different. I think life will not only keep functioning, I think you'll start functioning in a much more powerful and positive way. And that's

the whole point of this because you start to feel like you're reclaiming your life. And I love the suggestion.

your life. And I love the suggestion.

Maybe it's Sunday morning. Maybe it's

Saturday morning. one of my family members started going back to church and her family does not go with her. She

does not care. This is something she does for herself >> and it really has been a very big positive thing in her life and it's one

small thing that she does for herself.

Um, if you had to recommend one of the rules that is the most important one, if you're only going to pick one, what do you think has the biggest bang for the

buck that's easiest to imple? You know

what I mean?

>> I would say, oh boy, can I give two answers? Yes. Because giving a bed

answers? Yes. Because giving a bed giving yourself a bedtime is absolutely transformative. And even if you do

transformative. And even if you do nothing else, that will make you feel so much more control of your time.

>> Okay. Okay, then I think you'll just be inspired to go do the other eight rules.

So [laughter] >> I believe you.

>> We can start with giving ourselves a bedtime. But I think rule number two to

bedtime. But I think rule number two to plan on Fridays to have a designated weekly planning time where you look forward to the next week and see what is most important, what you would like to

see happen, what needs to happen, figure out your marching orders, figure out what you are looking forward to. That

will make life feel so much more calm. M

because I feel like certain phases of life, it's like you're canoeing down this rapidly moving river.

>> Yep.

>> And it's hard to know how to direct your canoe down there. And if you're just at the mercy of the rapids, you're going to be banged all over the place. But if you can [snorts] take just a little bit to

get yourself over to the side in the calm, in the shallows, and see what's coming up, then you can direct your craft better. And that doesn't mean that

craft better. And that doesn't mean that those currents aren't there. It doesn't

mean the rocks aren't there. But you see them. You have thought about them. At

them. You have thought about them. At

least the ones you can anticipate.

You've thought about how you will deal with them. And that makes a more

with them. And that makes a more productive life possible.

>> So cool. So Laura, if the person who's listening takes just one action from all of these

simple yet powerful strategies that you've just taught us, what do you think the most important thing to do is?

I think getting a sense of where the time really goes is the first step >> to making mindful choices about how to spend it more in service of the life

that you would like. And so I know it is not tremendously fun to track your time, but maybe we can dangle the carrot out there of saying, I bet you will be able

to find at least a little bit of time in your schedule for something you've been telling yourself you don't have time to do. And I would love to hear about the

do. And I would love to hear about the amazing and wonderful things that people do when they find even that 30 to 60 minutes for some adventure that makes

their life feel more wonderful. And so

I'm I'm excited to hear what comes out of that.

>> I am too. I am too cuz I think something really awesome is going to come out of that insight. Laura, what are your

that insight. Laura, what are your parting words?

>> [clears throat] >> I think knowing where the time goes allows us to make more intentional

choices. And time is so precious, but it

choices. And time is so precious, but it is also plentiful, right? How [snorts]

we spend our time is how we will spend our lives. And I know that time

our lives. And I know that time management gets this bad reputation. and

it's about squeezing more in or about these these people, you know, have these elaborate routines that don't look like the rest of our lives. And that's fine

for for them. But to me, time management is about being a good steward of these hours that I happen to have >> and I believe we can make life

wonderful.

>> Well, I am so excited by everything that you shared. I'm actually going to track

you shared. I'm actually going to track my time. All right.

my time. All right.

>> And I will let you know what I discover.

I'm afraid that I'm going to be confronted by the fact that I don't work as much as I complain that I do.

>> Um, but I'm excited about >> finding time and getting more intentional about filling it with things that really

matter. And I I cannot thank you enough

matter. And I I cannot thank you enough for making the time to come here to our studios in Boston, for all of the research that you've been doing that has had a huge impact on my life and the

lives of millions of people around the world, and for spending the time with us teaching us what we can do to take control of it. So, thank you. Thank you.

Thank you.

>> Thank you so much for giving me this opportunity.

>> My pleasure. And I also want to thank you. Thank you for finding the time and

you. Thank you for finding the time and making the time and spending it, watching or listening to this conversation which will improve your

life. Laura is right. Your life is

life. Laura is right. Your life is determined by what you pour your time into. And I am certain that these

into. And I am certain that these strategies that you and I learned today based on research will help you take your time back. And when you do that, your life is going to get better. It's

going to feel like yours. And in case no one else tells you today, I wanted to be sure to tell you that as your friend, I love you. I believe in you and I believe

love you. I believe in you and I believe in your ability to create a better life.

All righty, I will be waiting for you in the very next episode. I'll welcome you in the moment you hit play. I'll see you there. Thank you for watching all the

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