Subcommittee on National Security, the Border, and Foreign Affairs Hearing

sorry about that yeah the subcommittee hearing on unidentified anomalous phenomena or uaps will come to order welcome everyone without objection

the chair May declare a recess at any time additionally without objection the following members are waived onto the subcommittee for the purpose of participating in today's hearing Mr

burchard of Tennessee Miss Luna Florida Mr getza Florida Mr Burleson of Missouri Mrs ocasio-cortez in New York and Mr ogles of Tennessee without objection so

ordered for today's subcommittee hearing both the chair and ranking member will have 10 minutes for opening remarks we may both be giving some of those minutes

to other members of our party I'm now going to recognize myself for 10 minutes I'm actually going to try to get out of here in about four and then we'll give it to some of my friends over here good

morning and welcome to the mostly exciting the most exciting subcommittee in Congress this week the subcommittee on National Security of the board in foreign affairs for discussion of

unidentified anomalous phenomenon I'd like to thank the brave military Protestant Personnel such as wit such as the Witnesses on the panel today for sharing their stories on how they have

engaged uaps which has brought attention to this matter curiosity and speculation from all walks of life have generated interest in studying what uaps are and what threats

they they may pose I will say that when I was younger in school I read a book a 1966 book called flying saucers serious business and for a while when I was a

little bit younger I thought it was the most important issue out there uh the lack of a transparency regarding uaps which was one of the

themes of that book um uh um uh in any event it's led to interest in

studying what uaps are and what threats they pose the lack of transparency regarding uaps has fueled wild speculation and debate for decades eroding public trust in the

very institutions that are meant to serve and protect them as is evidenced by the large number of people we have here I also want to point out in 1966

President Gerald Ford claimed to have seen a UFO in 1969 in Georgia Jimmy Carter claimed to have seen a UFO so

this has led Congress to establish entities to examine uaps the National Defense authorization Act of 2022 established the all-domain anomaly

resolution officer aarro to conduct or to coordinate efforts across the Department of Defense and other federal agents federal agencies to detect identify and investigate uaps however

aaro's budget remains classified prohibiting meaningful oversight from Congress in addition to aro's efforts Nassau is leading an independent study

and uaps to identify how UAP that is gathered from both civilian and government entities that can be analyzed to shed light on the topic however

despite these offices being established their lives of pressing demand for government transparency and accountability that cannot be overlooked and that's been a problem it's been around for 50 years the Biden

Administration handling of the Chinese spy balloon that violated U.S airport

space is one example how the government is not prepared for these the Biden administration's description of events has shown that the government continues not to be forthright between the Chinese

balloon being shot down in two uaps subsequently shot down following the event earlier this year the U.S

government spent one and a half million dollars in taxpayer dollars on missiles yet we have seen little Clarity from the Biden Administration we must demand transparency from the Department of Defense our intelligent

community and our defense industry on the UAP work we're going to ask some questions about that today Congress recognizes the subject of uaps as multifaceted and requires a careful

data-driven approach today we'll see Clarity from these Witnesses testimonies or we'll see clarity as to what can be done to improve reporting for military and

civilians and remain committed to objective inquiry Congress should work to ensure that knowledge is not driven by fear today we are not just obeying the existence of UAP as we are

deliberating on the principles that Define our Republic which is a commitment to transparency and accountability I look forward to hearing from our Witnesses today about ways we can improve government

efficiency and openness when it comes to uaps I thank each of you for your presence here today and for your dedication to safeguarding the interest of the American people I look forward to your testimony and I'm going to turn it

over for two and a half or three minutes to representative Richard from Tennessee thank you Mr chairman thank you all for being here I want to thank everybody for making

this happen today and I want to remind everybody this is a nonpartisan issue this has nothing to do with Party politics I think the cover up goes a lot deeper than that I also want to thank my colleagues

representative Anna Paulina Luna sitting beside me here Jared Moskowitz my friend across the aisle has an incredible mind and I'm anxious to hear

his questions my buddy Eric Burleson and it's not in my notes here but Matt Gates if it hadn't been for Matt Gates myself him and Luna would still be down at Eglin Air Force Base trying to get some

answers he's got an incredible legal mind also uh I know I saw it in the crowd there George Knapp my buddy Jeremy Corbell I've

they're not Witnesses but they've provided some statements on this subject and I see unanimous consent to enter those statements into the record Mr chairman without objection also would

like to enter in I understand now that this is unclassified and it's public record but as we all know that's sometimes difficult for the public to get a hold of a report defense intelligence reference documents

Advanced space propulsion based on vacuum space-time metric engineering some light reading for some of our members without objection thank you

um you know Mr Knapp wrote since 1969 the position our military has been that UFOs pose no threat to National Security and are not worthy of further study I'd say that's the biggest understatement of

the decade um he also goes on to talk about the dismissive attitude and said odds with what was revealed in documents reports and internal memos

and Mr cabrill says as he writes these words the UFO is emerging as a major topic of global importance um I could state that as a fact out there I met a fella who came in there

all the way from Denmark to be here for this this meeting so this is huge this is worldwide I think we we suspect what's going on but I'd also like to thank the members of Congress who

supported our efforts to make this hearing happen some have even confided to me that they've had UFO sightings of Their Own those members of course some of them wish to remain anonymous and I'll keep

it that way but also finally I'd like to thank these three Brave Witnesses here they took an oath they took a note to uphold the Constitution United States and Dad government they're doing it and

we owe them a debt of gratitude [Applause] y'all quit clapping you're cutting in on my time just kidding these folks they've got nothing to gain from this and I think

you're going to find out that they've endured quite a few slings and arrows we need to remember them in our prayers and their families and I'm thankful them for their honest testimonies they have done interviews and appeared in documentaries

like accidental truth to get their stories out there to and and now they are all here to testify under oath for Congress and it's been so difficult to get here today I've said you know in the Baptist

Church we'd say that the devil's in our way and um the devil has been in our way through this thing we've we've run into roadblocks from members from the intelligence Community the Pentagon I

proposed legislation to go in the FAA reauthorization that just said if uh if an airline pilot has a sighting that when he makes that report to the FAA

that it would come to Congress but I was told that the intelligence community did not like that and the bill was and the amendment was not even heard in committee I think it's time for this country to

take back our country we need to tell the folks at the Pentagon they work for us that government we don't work for them and that's exactly the point this is an issue of government transparency we

can't trust a government that does not trust its people we're not bringing Little Green Men or flying saucers into the hearing sorry to disappoint about half y'all we're just going to get to

the facts we're going to uncover the cover-up and I hope this is just the beginning of many more hearings and more people coming forward about this and I yield back the remainder of my time

um I think is it to representative Luna Mr chairman yeah we'll we'll call him as Luna for her statement their circumstances surrounding uaps has captivated the intention of the American

people for decades ingrained in even the minds of our nation's leaders from Jimmy Carter to Barack Obama Hillary Clinton to Donald Trump Marco Rubio de Chuck Schumer John Radcliffe to National

Security Council officials yet from Roswell New Mexico to the coast of Jacksonville Florida the sightings of uaps have rarely been explained by the people who have first-hand accounts of these situations this is largely due to

the lack of transparency by our own government and the failure of our elected leaders to make good on their promises to release explanations and footage and mountains of over-classified documents that continue to be hidden

from the American people this isn't just how I feel in fact the American people largely believe that the government has actively covered up the truth about uaps one poll in particular found that 68 percent of Americans

believe that the government is hiding information about uaps and not being honest about what we know about them and from my personal experience I believe the same thing another poll found that nearly half

Americans believe that the federal government is doing a very bad or somewhat bad job of dealing with reports of UFO sightings as representative burchett just referenced on the fa bill

that just went through you can tell that that's exactly happening considering the thousands of testimonies and videos taken on people's phones and eyewitnesses accounts made by credible Witnesses such as doctors Pilots

scientists and active duty service members is unacceptable to continue to Gaslight Americans into thinking that this is not happening or that the potential of intelligence intelligent

life forms exists other than humans even more alarming is the fact that these eyewitnesses are many of times service members and have no assurance that their lives will not be negatively impacted or even harmed by their

experiences in being an active duty service member working on an Airfield I've had conversations with many Pilots where they were in fear of coming forward for Retribution and or being taken off

flight status how do we know this because the government has said nothing to assure us otherwise they have also did nothing to to calm the concerns of over 20 of

Americans who have reported to have seen UFOs or uaps we are simply told not to question the government and that the government has it under control today is the first hearing of its kind where we will attempt to get down to the

bottom of what is actually happening with uaps but we'll hear from people who have had personal sightings rather than Pentagon bureaucrats who have always been sent to Stonewall investigations just so that the Press knows and the

people know we were even denied access to a classified briefing in a skiff prior to this hearing due the amount of Hoops that we had to jump through to Grant temporary clearance to witness Crush who has knowledge of classified

information it is time to have an open-minded discussion on this topic to hear the evidence and understand the magnitude of what this means not just for our nation but for Humanity thank you chairman I

yield back the rest of my time thank you very much and I'd like to thank you thank you and Mr burchett for bringing this topic to my attention uh now we'll recognize National Security

subcommittee ranking member Garcia for 10 minutes well thank you Mr chairman and I want to thank first our Witnesses for joining us today I want to begin by thanking you all for your service to our country I

mean for sharing your voices uh today and your courage uh to be here as well uh to Mr Graves uh particularly grateful to you to spend some time that we had um for you to share with Candor um some

of your experiences so I appreciate that as well I do want to thank all the members of our subcommittee today and also those that are here and have waved on for their incredible interest in this

issue uh particularly to Congressman burchett I know that your leadership has brought us to this place today and I want to thank you for uh for that as well as everyone else that's been engaged in this work I also want to

thank the oversight staff who I know has been working very hard to ensure that today's hearing is serious that it's transparent and that it also provides appropriate answers as our oversight

body always demands now it's really important that we're here in a bipartisan way to have this conversation which really to the heart of it is about National Security and key to the subcommittee's Core purpose this is the

subcommittee on National Security of the oversight committee now our witnesses will testify today that uaps have posed a serious safety threat and we must understand this more broadly we're

dealing with real questions they get to the heart of our faith in government faith in our institutions as we all know is at an all-time low partisanship and alternative facts make it too easy to

doubt narrative or into or our institutions but this hearing will offer the public unique perspectives building on years of reporting by both federal agencies and the Independent Media now

some of the earliest reporting on this issue was a groundbreaking 2017 New York Times report which we which revealed research as we know now on unidentified

anomalous phenomena as many call UFOs by the defense intelligence agency Mr Graves and Commander forever's experiences with uaps have also been documented by the public not just by the

New York Times but CNN and many other national news outlets now the office of the Director of National Intelligence has published public reports doc committing uaps and on June 9 2022 NASA

announced that the agency is commissioning a study to of course examine unidentified anomalous phenomena now the sheer number of reports whistleblowers and stories of unidentified anomalous phenomena should

raise real questions and warrant investigation and oversight and that's why we are here today now Pilots have reported encounters for years now because of the stigma around reporting these incidents we still don't have a

complete picture of actually what's going on particularly as our witnesses will testify on the civilian side and that is a real problem that we have today in the country now it's very important that we show that Democrats

and Republicans in Congress can come together in a bipartisan way to cut through misinformation and to look at the facts in a serious and thoughtful manner if we are to advance oversight

and public disclosure we must also gain the broad support of the public we will succeed getting facts out to the public faster if there is a broad public support as part of the process now I

understand fully the Department of Defense is hesitant to share information that could also undermine our national security by revealing information on the capabilities of our own aircraft our

sensors and other sensitive material at the same time many people believe that we're withholding information from them and that is dangerous also I believe in openness and transparency that is also

the role of Congress and I want to trust that the American people will be able to weigh the evidence and make up their own minds now we have incidents where sensors sometimes even multiple types of sensors detect things that we cannot

explain uaps whatever they may be May pose a serious threat to our military or civilian aircraft and that must be understood

now my career in training as a long time and career educator and teacher and researcher tell me that we should never rule anything out we know that our space of course is vast and undiscovered

I also want to note that Mr Sean Kirkpatrick director of the all domain anomaly resolution office the component of the dod office that investigates UAP data has testified before the Senate

this year that his unit has found no evidence of extra extra activity NASA has also stated that they don't have evidence of extraterrestrial life either and we've heard this of course from some

of our government agencies and we should remind viewers and Witnesses which I think is really important that we also cannot share classified information in public settings but questions of course remain

that people want to see data and information for themselves the enormous interest in the hearing today underscores the importance of a fair and open look at the evidence from Witnesses who can share their unique perspectives

now I know I certainly have a lot of questions I know that all the members of our committee do as well we should come to this hearing with an open mind and we should not let our existing ideas restrict us on either

side I hear over and over from many agencies a stigma around reporting and investigating uaps prevents us from getting real answers we know that whistleblowers have reported harassment intimidation or stigma as

well and this is not acceptable if people can't report incidents which would have National Security or safety implications then that also has serious consequences for us as ranking member of this subcommittee I know it's my I know

my job would be completely impossible if whistleblowers or others feel intimidated to come before this committee we can't be afraid of asking questions and we can't be afraid of the truth I'm proud to say that that's a

hearing builds upon bipartisan work by members of the House and Senate dating many years back which is sought to increase awareness within the Department of Defense and more and to mandate more of Congress of uaps we know the Senate

is taking up an amendment to their defense authorization bill which will create a commission with broad declassification Authority and we can should all agree that that is an important step members of both parties and Senior officials in multiple

administrations have taken an interest in this issue and we're proud to carry and build that confidence in the American people this hearing will also not be the end of this discussion but a

new chapter and start to years and years of work that many folks both in both in the public and within government have been working on we should encourage more reporting not less on uaps the more they

under we understand the safer we will be we looked your testimony from Witnesses today with a long record of service to the American people and with subject matter expertise art Witnesses have a unique opportunity to share the

prospective insights and their experiences with the American people and I encourage all of my colleagues to engage with these difficult questions with an open mind and to follow the

facts on behalf of our country I also just want to say more broadly that we should look at this hearing with and believe that everything is on the table as it relates to uaps I think we an open mind is absolutely the best I want to

yield there are two and a half minutes of the remainder of my time to the representative from Florida representative Moskowitz for an opening statement he also has been very much engaged in this issue and I want to

thank him for his leadership Congressman thank you ranking member Garcia thank you Mr chairman I want to thank uh Tim burchett and Anna Paulina Luna for their leadership in pushing uh this hearing

forward I want to thank uh obviously committee staff and their staff working on this on a bipartisan basis because many Americans are deeply interested uh in this issue and it shouldn't take the

potential of non-human origin to bring us together additionally I want to thank the witnesses for for coming forward to share your perspectives your thoughts and the sightings of uaps unlike other

hearings many times in Congress you're not here to help a political party but you're here to share information with the American people and it's not something that is just going on in this Administration it's

something that's spanned many administrations for decades many Americans have been fascinated by objects mysterious and unexplained and it's long past time that they got some answers

the American public has a right to learn about Technologies of unknown Origins non-human intelligence and unexplainable phenomena those are not the words of a UFO Twitter

account though that is a direct quote for majority leader Chuck Schumer that the American public has a right to learn about Technologies of unknown Origins non-human intelligence and unexplainable

phenomena in an interview with Fox News recent former Director of National Intelligence John Radcliffe confirmed the U.S government is aware a lot more

the U.S government is aware a lot more sightings of uaps and that they have not made that information public I quote there are a lot more sightings that have not been made public Radcliffe said to

Fox News for me this hearing is about transparency we unfortunately live in a time in which many people distrust government and our institutions and over

classification of information away from the American public or even Congress contributes to today's Politics the American people have regular questions what are uaps how come the media doesn't

report more on them are they foreign adversaries are the U.S technology are they something else they ask themselves how come when a Russian jet shoots flares at one of our drones we have

perfect pictures and videos to show the American people and the world but when it comes to uaps nothing of course we must always protect our national security to maintain our

superiority like when stealth helicopters were only rumored to exist but were used in the Osama Bin Laden raid in 2011. but we can't allow that to

be used as a shield to keep the American people completely in the dark from basic truths the American people deserve to hear more about special access programs

Congress has a right to know if there's any unsanctioned weapons development satellite imagery that has not been provided to Congress Congress created the all-demain

resolution office in the ndaa of 2022 in its initial analysis there are 171 uncharacterized UAP reports and this is

the words from the report that appear to have demonstrated unusual flight characteristics or performance capabilities I believe more information is known about the 171 instances

it's time for Congress to reinsert ourselves I call on our military leaders and intelligence officials to release more information to the American people about uaps

and to our military leaders if there's nothing to conceal let Congress go to write Patterson Air Force Base The dugway Proving Ground or even Groom Lake in Nevada

we should have disclosure today we should have disclosure tomorrow the time has come thank you ranking member thank you Mr Moskowitz and I would yield back now to our chairman thank you

right now I'd like to introduce our Witnesses our first Witnesses Lieutenant Ryan Graves he's the executive director of Americans for safe Aerospace Lieutenant Graves is also a former U.S

Navy F-18 pilot with the Zone UAP experience the next witness David grush is a former senior intelligence officer with the National geospatial

Intelligence Agency and was a senior technical advisor for UAP issues and finally finally retired Navy commanded date Commander David fraver Squadron

leader who worked as a Naval aviator for 18 years Mr fraver has his own UAP experience known as The Tick Tock event I look forward to hearing from all three

of you today um pursuant to committee rule 9g the witnesses will please stand and raise their right hands do you solemnly swear or affirm that the testimony you are about to give is the

truth the whole truth and nothing but the truth so helped you God let the records show that all the witnesses answered in the affirmative you may be seated

we appreciate you all being here today and look forward to your testimony I'll remind the witnesses that we have read your written statements and they will appear in full in the hearing record please try to limit your oral statements

to five minutes as a reminder please press the button on the microphone in front of you so that it's on and the members can hear you when you begin to speak the light in front of you will turn green after four minutes it'll turn

yellow and the red light when that comes on it tells you your five minutes have expired I'll now recognize Mr Graves for five minutes for your opening statement thank you

chairman grothman ranking member Garcia distinguished members of the House oversight subcommittee on National Security representative burchett and Luna my name is Ryan Fox Graves and I'm a

former F-18 pilot with a decade of service in the U.S Navy including two deployments in operation enduring freedom and operation inherent resolve I have experience Advanced UAP firsthand and I'm here to voice the concerns of

more than 30 commercial air crew and military veterans who have confided their similar encounters with me today I would like to highlight three critical issues that demand our action

as we convene here UAP are in our airspace but they are grossly under-reported these sightings are not rare or isolated they are routine military air crew and commercial pilots trained observers whose lives depend on

accurate identification are frequently witnessing these phenomena the stigma attached to UAP is real and powerful and challenges National Security it silences commercial pilots who fear

professional repercussions discourages Witnesses it is only compounded by recent government claims questioning the credibility of eyewitness testimony parts of our government are aware of more about UAP than they let on the

excessive classification practices keep crucial information hidden since 2021 all UAP videos are classified as secret or above this level of secrecy not only impedes our understanding but fuels

speculation and mistrust in 2014 I was an F-18 foxtrot pilot in the Navy fighter attack Squadron 11 the red Rippers and I was stationed at NAS Oceana in

Virginia Beach after upgrades were made to our Jets radar systems we began detecting unknown objects operating in our airspace at first we assume there are radar errors but soon we began to correlate

the radar tract with multiple onboard sensors including infrared systems eventually through Visual ID during a training mission in morning area whiskey 72 10 miles off the coast

of Virginia Beach two F-18 Super Hornets were split by UAP the object described as a dark gray or a black Cube inside of a clear sphere came within 50 feet of the lead aircraft and

was estimated to be 5 to 15 feet in diameter the mission Commander terminated the flight immediately and returned base our Squadron submitted a safety report but there was no official acknowledgment of the incident and no further mechanism

to report the sightings soon these encounters became so frequent that aircrew would discuss the risk of UAP as part of their regular PreFlight briefs recognizing the need for action and

answers I founded Americans for safe Aerospace the organization has since become a heaven for UAP Witnesses who were previously unspoken due to the absence of a safe intake process more than 30 Witnesses have come forward in

almost 5 000 Americans have joined us in the fight for transparency at safe aerospace.org the majority of Witnesses are commercial pilots at majority major airlines often

they are veterans with Decades of flying experience Pilots are reporting UAP at altitudes that appear above them at forty thousand feet potentially in low earth orbit or in the gray Zone below the Carmen line

making inexplainable Maneuvers like right hand turns and retrograde orbits or j-hooks sometimes these reports are reoccurring with numerous recent sightings north of Y and in the North Atlantic

other veterans are also coming forward to us regarding UAP Encounters in our airspace and oceans the most compelling involved observations of UAP by multiple Witnesses and sensor systems I believe

these accounts are only scratching the surface and more will share their experiences once it is safe to do so in closing I recognize the skepticism surrounding this topic if everyone could see the sensor and

video data I've witnessed our national conversation would change I urge us to put aside stigma and address the security and safety issue this topic represents if you appear foreign drones it is an urgent national

security problem if it is something else it is an issue for science in either case unidentified objects are concerned for flight safety the American people deserve to know what is happening

in our skies it is long overdue thank you Mr Rush Mr chairman ranking members and congressmen thank you I'm happy to be here this is an important issue and I'm

grateful for your time my name is David Charles grush I was an intelligence officer for 14 years in the both in the U.S Air Force both active

duty Air National Guard and Reserve at the rank of major and most recently from 2021 to 2025 or excuse me 2023 at the

National geospatial Intelligence Agency NGA at the gs-15 civilian level which is the military equivalent of a full bird colonel I was my agency's co-lead and

unidentified anomalous phenomena and transmedium object analysis as well as reporting to the UAP task force uaptf and eventually once it was established

the all domain anomaly resolution office Arrow I became a whistleblower through a PPD 19 urgent concern filing in May 2022 with

the intelligence Community Inspector General following concerning reports from multiple esteemed and credentialed current and former military and intelligence Community individuals that

the U.S government is operating with

the U.S government is operating with secrecy above congressional oversight with regards to uaps my testimony is based on information

I've been given by individuals with a long-standing track record of legitimacy and service to this country many of whom also have shared compelling

evidence in the form of photography official documentation and classified oral testimony to myself and many my various colleagues I have taken every step I can to

collaborate this evidence over a period of four years while I was with the UAP task force and do my due diligence on the individual sharing it this is

because of these steps I believe strongly in the importance of bringing this information before you I am driven by a commitment of both to truth and transparency

rooted in our inherent duty to uphold the United States Constitution and protect the American people I'm asking Congress to hold our government to the standard and

thoroughly investigate these claims but as I stand here under oath now I am speaking to the facts as I have been told them in the U.S Air Force in my national

reconnaissance office nro reserves capacity I was a member of the UAP task force from 2019 to 2021. I served at the narrow operations center on the

director's briefing staff which included the coordination of the presidential Daily Brief and supporting variety of contingency operations which I was the reserve Intelligence Division Chief back

up in 2019 the UAP task force director asked me to identify all special access

programs and controlled access programs also known as saps and caps we needed to satisfy our congressionally mandated Mission and we were direct report at the

time to the depth sect deaf at the time due to my extensive executive level intelligence support duties I was cleared to literally all relevant compartments and in a position

of extreme trust both in my military and civilian capacities I was informed in the course of my official duties of a multi-decade UAP

crash retrieval and reverse engineering program to which I was denied access to those additional read-ons when I requested it

I made the decision based on the data I collected to report this information to my Superior superiors and multiple inspectors General and in effect becoming a whistleblower

as you know I've suffered retaliation for my decision but I am hopeful that my actions will ultimately lead to a positive outcome of increased transparency uh thank you and I'm happy to answer

your questions thank you uh Commander favor uh thank you thank you Mr chairman Congressman congresswoman um I want to first thank you for the

invitation to speak to the committee on the UAP topic this has been in the news for the past six years and seems to be continuing to gain momentum as you know my name is David fraver I'm retired commander in the United States

Navy in 2004 I was a commanding officer of Strike Fighter Squadron 41 the world famous Black Aces if you're a test to carrier 11 station on board the USS Nimitz and have begun a two-month work-up cycle off the coast of

California on this day we were scheduled for a 2v2 area training with the USS Princeton as our control when we launched off knewitz my wingman was joining up we were told that the

training was going to be suspended and we're doing we're going to proceed with real world tasking as we proceeded to the West the air controller was counting down the range to an object that we were going to and

we're unaware of what we were going to see when we arrived their uh the controller told us that these objects had been observed for over two weeks coming down from over 80 000

feet rapidly descending to 20 000 feet hanging out for hours and then going straight back up for those who don't realize above 80 000 feet is space we arrived at the location at approximately 20 000 feet in a

controller called merge plot which means that our radar blip was now in the same resolution cell as the contact as we looked around we noticed that we saw some white water off our right side it's important to note the weather on

this day was as close to perfect as you could ask for off the coast of San Diego clear skies light winds calm seas no White Caps from waves so the White Water stood out in a large Blue Ocean all four of us because we were an f-18fs

so we had pilots and wizzo in the back seat looked down a small saw white Tic-Tac object with a longitudinal axis pointing North South and moving very abruptly over the water like a ping pong

ball there were no rotors no rotor wash or any sign of visible control surfaces like wings as we started clockwise towards the object My Wizard and I decided to go down and take a closer look with the other aircraft staying in

High cover to observe both us and the Tic Tac we proceeded around the circle about 90 degrees from the start of our descent and the object object suddenly shifted

its longitudinal axis aligned it with my aircraft and began to climb we continue down another 270 degrees nose low where the Tic Tac or we

consumed 270 degrees toward and we went nose load where the Tic Tac would have been our altitude at this point was about 15 000 feet and the Tic Tac was about twelve thousand as we pulled those onto the object within about a half mile

of it it rapidly accelerated in front of us and disappeared our wing men roughly 8 000 feet above us lost contact also we immediately turned back to see where the white water was at and it was gone also

so as you started to turn back towards the east the controller came up and said sir you're not going to believe this but that thing is at your cat Point roughly 60 miles away in less than a minute you can calculate the speed we return to Nimitz we were taking off our gear we

were talking to one of my Cruisers getting ready to launch we mentioned it to him and they went out and luckily got the video that you see that 90 second video what you don't see is the radar tape that was never released and we don't know where it's at the act of

jamming that the object put on an apg-73 radar and I can get into modes later if you're interested what is shocking to us is that the incident was never investigated none of my crew ever questioned tapes were never taken and after a couple days it turned

into a great story with friends it wasn't until 2009 until Jay Stratton had contacted me to investigate unbeknownstall he was part of the atip program in the Pentagon led by louisando

and there was an official official report that came out that's now on the internet years later I was contacted by the other pilot Alex Dietrich and asked if I'd been contacted and I said no but I'm willing to talk

I was contacted by Mr Elizondo and we talked for a short period of time and he said we'd be in contact a few weeks after that I was made a word that lewd left the Pentagon in protest and joined forces with Tom Delong Chris melon Steve

Justice and others to form two stars Academy an organization that pressed the issue with leading industry experts and U.S government officials they worked

U.S government officials they worked with Leslie Keane who was president today Rob Blumenthal and Helene Cooper to publish the articles in the New York Times 2017 New York Times and it removed

the stigma on the topic of UFOs which is why we're here today those articles open the door for the government and public that cannot be closed it has led to an interest from our elected officials who are not

focused on Little Green Men but figuring out where these crafts are where they from the technology they possess how do they operate it also led to the Whistleblower protection act in the ndaa there are multiple Witnesses coming

forward to say uh that have first-hand knowledge and and Mr grush just covered that what concerns me is that there's no oversight from our elected officials on anything associated with our government processing or working on Craft

I believe not from this world this issue is not a full public disclosure that could undermine National Security but it is about ensuring that our system of checks and balances Works across all work done in the government using taxpayer funds relative to government

programs even unacknowledged wave programs have some level of oversight by the appropriate committee members in the House and Senate and this work that is said to be occurring from whistleblower testimonies should not be exempt in closing I would like to say that the Tic

Tac object we engaged in 2004 was far superior to anything that we had on time have today or looking to develop in the next 10 years if we in fact have programs that possess this technology and needs to have oversight from those

people that the citizens of this great country elected in office to represent what is best for the United States and best for the citizens I thank you for your time thank you very much thank you very much I know it's very difficult for

all of you all you've done in the past to try to illuminate this issue call myself first for some questions I'm going to start with Mr Graves um are your Pilots our Pilots that you

interact with as part of your organization do you feel adequately trained and briefed on how to handle encounters with uaps no right now uh military witnesses to

UAP have limited options for reporting UAP but more more concerning is that commercial Aviation sector has not adapted to the lessons that the military

has implemented the military and Department defense has stated that UAP represent a critical Aviation safety risk we have not seen that that same that same language being used in the

commercial markets they are not acknowledging this risk okay what steps do you think you have to be taken to improve a pilot's UAP reporting be it military or commercial

right now we need a system where Pilots can report without fear of losing their jobs there is a fear that the stigma associated with this topic is going to lead to professional repercussions either through management or perhaps

through their yearly physical check so having a secure system reducing the stigma and making this available this information available through the public is going to reduce the concerns that aircrew have could you just give me a

little idea that the degree to which reports in the past are are not made public right now well I don't think there has been a proper reporting system to gather those

reports and thus not report them so to answer your question I think there is a dearth of data due to the fact that the reporting has been limited up to this time could you tell me why you believe it's kind of play The Devil's Advocate a

reason why some of this stuff should not be available to the public there's certainly some National Security concerns when we use our Advanced sensors and our tactical Jets to be able to identify these these objects however

there's no reason that the objects themselves would be classified I would be curious to see how the security classification guideline actually spells out the different nuances of how this

topic is classified from the from the perspective of UAP not National Security I'll give you a follow-up on that assuming that there are reasons why not all this should be made public this has

been around for a long period of time um can you think of can any of the three of you think of any reason why anything related to uaps say 15 years in back

should not be immediately made public one of it is uh acknowledging a vulnerability both from a collection and I'll just say A you know countermeasure perspective so it's uh no we haven't

cracked for many years yeah even say 20 years back is there any reason why when you go back that far things shouldn't be made public unless it shows a specific National

Security vulnerability as it relates to a weakness and particular defenses okay Mr fraver the Tic Tac incident that you and that with that you were engaged

occurred in 2004 what kind of reporting took place after that incident before the backseaters went down to our carrier Intel Center and brief what had happened and that was it no one else

talked to us and I was in the top 20 in the battle group no one came that Captain was aware that was aware nothing was done you're commanding officers provide any sort of justification

no because I was a commanding officer of the Squadron so no was this incident the only UAP event that you encountered while you were a pilot

yes it was okay um this is for any one of you based on based off of each of your experiences and observations do you believe uaps pose a Potential Threat to our national security

on yes and here's why the the technology that we faced was far superior than anything that we had and you could put that anywhere if you

if you had one you captured one you reverse engineered it you got it to work you're talking something that can go into space go someplace drop down in a matter of seconds do whatever it wants and leave

and there's nothing we can do about it nothing okay either the other YouTube I would also like to add from commercial Aviation and Military Aviation perspective we deal with uncertainty in

our operating space as a matter of of our protection professional actions identifying friend from foe is very important to us and so when we have unidentified targets and we continue to

ignore those due to a stigma or fear of what it could be that's an opening that our adversaries can take advantage of what what uh steps should we take in to better understand and respond to UAP Encounters in the interest of National

Security there needs to be a location where this information is centralized for processing and there needs to be a two-way communication Loop so the operators on the front end have a

feedback and can can get best practices on how to process information what to do and to ensure that they they their reporting is being listened to right now there's not a lot of back and forth Mr

gresh in your complaint to the intelligence Community inspector you Inspector General you claim that you believe information is being hidden what kind of information do you think was hidden and do you think it should remain hidden

yes I can speak to that very briefly in unclassified manner as you know the preponderance of my complaint was classified to the intelligence communities uh both uh material

acquisition and exploitation activity um also baselining the uaps but not sharing it with you know intelligence professionals that are actually doing step briefs to Pilots uh that that kind

of information yeah yeah okay thank you very much now we'll go to Mr Garcia thank you um again thank you all for for your service and for testifying today I want to just uh talk about the uaps it

relates to what we're seeing in the Pilot's interaction with uaps particularly Mr Graves one of the concerns that for members of this committee is this idea that Pilots there's no system to actually report

uaps and the stigma around pilots and so could you can you just briefly you mentioned that they're you working with 30 Pilots right now that have had encounters with uaps but you've also I

believe I'm discussed and know of many more pilots this is just those that you're currently working with is that correct can you expand on that certainly I'll break that down in two ways first when we were first experiencing these

objects off the Eastern Seaboard in the 2014 to 2015 time period anyone that had upgraded their radar systems were seeing these objects so there was a large number of my colleagues that were

detecting these objects off the Eastern Seaboard they were further correlating that information with the other onboard centers and many of them also had their own uh eye sightings as well of these

objects now that was our personal first firsthand experience at the time since then as I've engaged this topic others have reached out to me that share their experiences both on the military side as

well as a commercial Aviation side on the military Aviation side veterans that have recently got out have shared their stories and have expressed how the objects we were seeing in 2014 2015

continued all the way to 2019 2020 and Beyond and so it became a generational issue for Naval aviators on the Eastern Seaboard this was something we are briefing to new students this is something that was included in the

notice to Airmen to ensure that there was no uh accidents and now with commercial aviators they are reaching out because they're having somewhat similar experiences as our military

brothers and sisters but they do not have any reporting system that they can send this to and let me just add both to to Mr fravor as well as Mr Graves not

having this system for for reporting would you both degree that is harmful to not just our national security interests but to understand this phenomenon of what's happening with uaps

I think it's it's uh it's a it's actually it's a travesty that we don't have a system to correlate this and actually investigate you know so if you took the East Coast you know there's there's there's Coastal Radars out there

that monitor our air defense identification zone so out to 200 miles uh they can track these you know so when you see them they could actually go and pull that data and get maneuvering and

instead of just having the airplanes there's other data sources out there and I've talked to other government officials on this so you need a centrally located repository that these reports go to so if you just stuck it in dod you wouldn't get anything out of the

intelligence committee because they have a tendency not to talk but if you had a central location where these reports would come in not just military but also commercial Aviation because there's a lot of that going on especially if you talk to anyone that flies from here to

Hawaii over the Pacific they see odd lights so I think you need to develop something that allows you a central point to collect the data in order to investigate Mr Graves

I would concur with everything Mr fravor said I'll continue to say that the commercial pilots that have reached out to me through Americans for safe Aerospace are doing so because they don't feel there's another way for them to report their safety issue and I think

one of the clear outcomes of this hearing already is that there has to be a safe and transparent reporting process for Pilots both on the commercial side and the military side to be able to

report uaps in a way that's also transparent but also understands the scope of our of our national security interests and what may be classified or not but I think there has to be some sort of system and so that's something

that I hope can be an outcome that this committee can can work on uh is there anything else for just for the two of you briefly Beyond this reporting system that you think that we can do as a government to encourage and facilitate

more civilian reporting I'm just doing it right now okay great I think this hearing is is going to show the American people that their government takes this topic seriously and how and how about civilians it may not be

Pilots what kind of process could be in place for civilians who are not pilots who may have UAP encounters do either of you have any suggestions that could facilitate that my recommendations would

make would be to make that a sense a sensor Centric operation in order to make it as objective as possible okay sir Mr favor no I agree with Mr Graves on that okay

um just just briefly I also just want to um note for particularly for the two pilots I have a question for Mr grush one of the things that I found fascinating in our discussion Mr Graves last night as well is that you've both described

um uaps and formations and the way they have they they they are observed in space or or in our air and the way that they move essentially um ways in which current technology or

aircraft that we know of are unable to actually function or move and so will you just for the public record again once once again um just uh briefly just either describe

or note that aircraft that are being witnessed particularly by the 30 folks that you're working with are essentially outside the scope of anything that we know of today in the technology we have today Mr graves Mr favor

yes the objects that are being seen by commercial pilots are performing Maneuvers that are unexplainable due to our current understanding of our technology and our capabilities as a country and that applies for the

military as well Mr Mr yeah I concur with that we have nothing that can stop in midair and go the other direction nor do we have anything that can like in our situation come down from space hang out for three hours and go

back up thank you my last question and so and sometimes you I know that some you have also said some of these answers in the past we're trying to get them on the public record as well which is really important Mr gresh finally do you believe that our government is in

possession of uaps absolutely based on interviewing uh over 40 Witnesses over four years and and where I know the exact locations and those

locations were provided to the Inspector General and some of which to the intelligence committees I actually had the people with the first-hand knowledge um provide a protected disclosure to the Inspector General thank you and Mr

chairman I would just say that I think that these questions are important questions and I look forward to being involved in the process to get those answered I know there'll be a lot of questions from the committee members so I yield back thank you we'll go to Mr birchard

himself thank you Mr chairman thank you Mr Garcia I would like to have you on the my legislation to do just that on the on the reporting um and we'll get together on that maybe

it could be my co-sponsor on that that'd be really cool thank you for those great questions um Mr Graves again I'd like to know how do

you know that these were not our aircraft some of the behaviors that we saw in a working area we would see these objects

being at 0.0 Mach that's zero airspeed over certain pieces of the ground so what that means just like a river if you throw a bobber in it's going to float Downstream these objects were staying

completely stationary and category 4 hurricane winds these same objects would then accelerate to supersonic speeds 1.1 1.2 Mach and they would do so in very erratic and quick behaviors that we

don't I don't have an explanation for okay have you spoken to Commercial and Military Pilots that have seen these off of our East Coast I have okay

um Mr Fiverr I noticed that um in the Tic Tac video uh it's Tic Tac like the candy not Tick

Tock like the Chinese Communist uh app that's correct yes sir I just want to make that because my daughter uh corrected me on that and called me a boomer and say Boomer and I said no baby

it's Tic Tac like the candy you're gonna have to just look it up and um but now I would love to like to say today is a is a day of many first it's a miracle that we're having this this meeting and it's

also a miracle that my wife has put up with me for nine years today today is my anniversary so I want to tell my wife happy anniversary and that I love her very much um as she likes to say this nine years have

been the best two years of her life so thank you um Mr favor what what astonished you the most about

the the flight capabilities of these Tic Tac very briefly uh the performance absolute performance it was and you're you're not aware of any other objects

that anybody in the world has in this world that has those capabilities no I think it's far beyond actually our Material Science that we currently possess are you aware of any other

reconnaissance platforms that attract or recorded the Tic Tacs Maneuvers maybe the NORAD system or any of the others I am not okay Mr grosh thank you for being here brother thank

you all very much um have you faced any retaliation or arrivals for any of your testimony or anything on these lines yeah uh I have to be

careful what I say in detail because there is an open uh whistleblower reprisal investigation on my behalf and I don't want to compromise that investigation by providing anything that may uh

help provide somebody information but it was very brutal and very unfortunate some of the tactics they used to hurt me both professionally and and personally

to be quite Frank yeah it's very unfortunate as they say when you're over the target that's when they do the most firing at you do you have any personal knowledge of people who've been harmed or injured in efforts to cover up or

conceal these extraterrestrial technology yes personally have you heard anyone been murdered that you would think that you know of or have heard of I guess I have

to be careful asking that question I directed people with that knowledge to the appropriate authorities maybe in a um if we could get it get in a confidential area skiff we could talk

about that but unfortunately um we were denied access to the skiff and that's very unfortunate in this in this scenario um

Mr favor do you believe that you witnessed an additional object under the water in relation to your encounter I will say we did not see an object there was something there to cause the

white water and when we turned around it was gone so there was something there that obviously moved okay it was it was not the same object though that you were you were looking at correct no we actually joke that the Tic

Tac was communicating with something when we came back and because the White Water disappeared uh we were in another instance we're told about the capabilities of a jamming

during viewing of some when there were some people chasing some of these objects did you experience any of that jamming or interrupting your radar or weapon system my crew that launched

after we landed experienced significant jamming to the apg-73 radar which was what we had on board which is a mechanically scanned very high-end system prior to the apg-79 and yes it

did pretty much everything you could do range velocity aspect and then it hit the lock and the targeting pod is passive that's what we were able to get the video on I'm about to run out of time but um are you aware of any of our

enemies that have that capability no okay I would also like to note for the record that um like George Knapp breaking Area 51 he's the reason I knew

about that and the reason I know about the Tic Tacs is uh is Leslie Kane from New York Times article and I would encourage everybody to read that

thank you Mr chairman yield back no time very good Mr Raskin thank you Mr chairman um Mr Graves

um you reported UAP encounters um during training flights I think and have since come forward to warn the

Pentagon that these encounters may be putting Pilots at risk um my first question is um you've identified these as taking

place on the east coast is it just on the East Coast where these encounters uh have been reported no since the events initially occurred I've learned that the

objects have been detected essentially where uh all operations Navy operations are being conducted across the world and that's from uh the all domain anomaly resolutions office reporting

all right can you describe your experience after you decided to come forward and um go public with your um experience certainly like many others in 2017 I saw

the New York Times article come out as well and for me it was it was special because I recognized the voices on the video I recognized the video itself I had seen it when it was taken I seen it

when it was debriefed and so that was kind of shook me because I realized that this problem was still ongoing and so I reached out to colleagues back on the east coast and realized that this was still a safety risk that they were dealing with that they had essentially

hit a wall with how they could move forward on this conversation it was at that point when I decided to try to move the conversation forward myself um are there common characteristics to

the uaps that have been cited by different pilots and can you describe what the convergence of descriptions is certainly we were primarily seeing dark gray or black cubes inside of a clear

sphere I'm sorry dark gray or black cubes yes inside of a clear sphere where the Apex or tips of the cube were touching the inside of that sphere and that was primarily what was being

reported when we were able to gain a visual tally of these objects and that occurred over almost eight years and as far as I know it's still occurred [Music] um

so I take it that you're arguing what we need is real transparency in a reporting system so we can get some clarity on what's going on out there because there

are many pilots in your situation um but we should have a way of developing assist systematic inventory of all of such encounters is that right yes and I think we need both

transparency and the reporting we have the reporting but we need to make sure that information can be promulgated to commercial Aviation as well as the rest of the populace um Mr Crush what about you what was your

experience after you came forward well uh it's only been about two months or so so I guess my experience has been overwhelming support from uh former colleagues of mine that have you know

privately messaged me and and I do appreciate that uh but I I do have knowledge of um active planned uh reprisal activity against myself and other colleagues and

it's very very upsetting to me coming from where uh certain senior leadership at previous agencies I was associated with and that's all I'll say publicly but I

can provide more details in a closed environment okay well I I hope you understand that um there would be bipartisan rejection

of any attempt uh to vilify demonize or engage in other reprisals against our Witnesses and people who are telling the truth from their perspective yeah there were certain colleagues of mine that

were brutally administratively attacked and it you know actually makes me very upset as a leader to see that happen to other co-workers and actually superiors of mine over the last three years how do

you account for that response that seems like a bizarre response I called administrative terrorism that's their their quiver their tool in the toolbox to silence people especially you know

the career government service cares about the career cares about their clearance uh their reputation to climb the ladder and when you threaten that uh flow career path a lot of people back

off but I'm here to represent those people so um Mr fravor what about you what has your experience been since you've come

forward with your perspective on this actually I've been treated very well and the six people that were involved myself included all of them have or will be retiring

from the military as 0506s and all my friends that are very senior three and four stars I've talked to them they they believe they understand there's a problem but no I was actually treated

really well and and what is your general interpretation um of these phenomena or what is your

current thinking of trying to make sense of them well I'll say you know I'm not like a UFO fanatic it's not it's not me but I will tell you that what we saw

with four sets of eyes over a five minute period still there's nothing we have nothing close to it it was it was amazing to see I told my buddy I wanted to fly it but

yeah it's just an incredible technology all right Mr chairman thank you very much I'll yield back to you uh thanks and Miss Luna

Mr grush in speaking to you yesterday um I just wanted to follow up on representative raskin's questions in the last couple of years have you had

incidences that have caused you to be in fear for your life for addressing these issues yes personally yeah I just want everyone to note that he's coming forward in fear of his life

to put in perspective if they were really not scared about this information coming out why would someone be intimidated like that um to your knowledge our nhis working

with adversarial foreign governments in either technology exchange programs or back engineering programs I don't have data on that I'm not sure have you heard or you had people come forward to

present that evidence not that particular evidence that you just espoused okay on the 19th of April Dr Kirkpatrick head of Arrow had said that he did not find any evidence of

uaps you also stated that you had in your interview that you had briefed him on information that you are uncovering but that he did not follow up with you were the items that you divulged to him

pertin to National Security yes him and I had a classified conversation in April 2022 before he took over arrow in the July to 2022 and

I provided him some concerns I had do you know why he might not have fallen up with you uh um unfortunately I cannot read his mind I wish she did I was I was happy to

give Sage counsel to him on where to look when he took the the Helm of Arrow okay and then my last question for you before I moved to Mr Graves is um you received prior approval from the defense

department to speak on certain issues correct correct through uh dobster DOD pre-publication and Security review and I just want to remind the public uh they're just looking from a security

perspective uh these are my own personal views and opinions uh not the Departments okay I'm asking that mainly because I think that there are many people that would like to discredit you

so it does bring a certain amount of credibility to your testimony I'm required by law to do that as a Former Intelligence officer or I go to jail for revealing classified information yeah we don't want you to go to jail

my next question would actually be for Mr Graves can you please explain to me in detail the event that occurred at Vandenberg Air Force Base

certainly uh in the 2003 time frame a large group of Boeing contractors were operating near one of the launch facilities at Vandenberg Air Force Base when they

observed a very large 100 yard sided uh Red Square uh approached the base from the ocean and hover at low altitude over one of the launch facilities

this object remained for about 45 seconds or so before darting off over the mountains um there was a similar event within 24 hours later in the evening this was a

morning event I believe 8 45 in the morning later in the evening post sunset there were reports of other sightings on base including some aggressive behaviors these objects were approaching some of

the security guards at rapid speeds before darting off and this is information that was received through one of the witnesses that have approached me at Americans for safe Aerospace was this documented in any

official form whether it was a police blotter yes they had official documentation and records from the event that the witness held over the years and I'm not going to ask you to do it right now for time reasons but you would be

able to sketch what was when it's correct and you've have you seen that before on any other equipment and or during your flight time I have not seen what they have described this object was estimated to be almost the size of a

football field and I have not seen anything personally that large okay and then another question on follow-up referencing the gimbal video go fast incident can you just clarify because to our understanding the footage was

actually cut off at a certain point but what happens at the end of that video just for those Americans specifically there that are wanting to know about the rest of that footage certainly there was some uncertainty or um instability with

the object it seemed to rock a bit and that's the last uh last is you know the video much of the data that I would recommend be analyzed would consist of radar data that would provide precise

kinematics on the object as well as the fleet of objects that were operating nearby okay and follow-up in regards to the reporting procedures that Mr Garcia had addressed on as well as representative burchett with the FAA to

your understanding Pilots that are seeing this commercial airline pilots are they receiving cease and desist letters from corporations for coming forward with information in regards to

safety for potential airline passengers I have been made privy to conversations with commercial aviators who have received seasoned assist orders so the American public should know that

corporations are putting their own reputations on the basic not the line but ahead of the safety of the American people and I think would you agree with

that statement appears so okay um I guess this would be my last I'm out of time I yield I'll be back

Mr maskowitz thank you Mr chairman uh Gentlemen let's talk about the laws of physics for a second uh Mr Graves and in Commander favor I

heard you talk about speed when those objects broke the sound barrier did they make a sonic boom I was in a jet you can't hear anything

it's kind of loud in there yeah you're not able to actually personally tell within the vehicle I will say the objects that we were seeing they were spherical and they were observed up the Mach 2 which is a very

in non-aerodynamic shape what about g-forces let's talk about g-forces of those Vehicles could a human survive those g-forces with known technology today no no not for the acceleration

rates that we observed okay what about what they look like how close did you get did you see a seam or a rivet or a section and what I mean is obviously the

Jets you're flying have all those things did these objects have those do you want to go ride I didn't have I didn't have the detail to be able to tell that Tic Tac which people say that's pretty

far but it's in air ings that's actually relatively close no it was perfectly white smooth no windows although when we did take the original FLIR video that is out there when you put it on a big screen it actually had two little

objects that came out of the bottom of it but other than that no no windows no seams no nothing Mr garage as a result of your previous government work have you met with people with direct

knowledge or have direct knowledge yourself of non-human origin craft yes I personally interviewed those individuals Mr grush as a result of your previous government work have you met

with people with direct knowledge or have direct knowledge yourself about ATS Advanced Technologies that the US government has

uh based on conventional Advanced Tech I was briefed to the preponderance of the defense Department's both space and Aerospace compartment of programs yeah do you have knowledge or do you have

reason to believe that there are programs in the advanced Tech space that are unsanctioned uh yes I do okay yeah and and when you say that they're above congressional

oversight what do you mean a complicated question uh so there's you know some I would call it abuse here so Congressional oversight of conventional

special access programs so I'll use title 10 so DOD as an example right so 10 U.S code section 119 discusses

10 U.S code section 119 discusses congressional oversight of saps discusses uh the the depth sect def's ability to waive Congressional reporting however the gang of eight is at least

supposed to be notified if a you know waived or wave bigoted unacknowledged sap is created and that's Public Law well so that how does I mean I don't want to cut you off but how does a program like that get funded

I will give you generalities I can get very specific in a closed session uh but uh misappropriation of funds and uh does that mean does that mean that there is money in the budget that is said to go

to a program but it doesn't and it goes to something else yes I have specific knowledge of that yep do you think U.S

corporations are over over charging for certain Tech they're selling to the US government and that additional money is going to programs correct through something called irad okay

um satellite imagery let's talk about satellite imagery we have satellites all over the place some that we're aware of and many that we're not aware of right

we're taking pictures of everything at every point in second uh Mr grush are you aware do you have direct knowledge we've talked to people direct knowledge that there are satellite imagery of

these events that was one of my primary tasks at NGA since we uh process exploit and disseminate that kind of information I've seen multiple cases some of which

to my understanding and of course I left NG in April so that's my information cut off date but I personally um reviewed both what we call Overhead collection and from other strategic and

tactical platforms that were I could not even explain prosaically and I have a degree in physics by the way as well and I had I I'm aware that you guys have not seen these

um reports unfortunately and I don't know why is do you have direct knowledge we had spoken people with direct knowledge that this imagery applies to

crash sites crash crash imagery I can't discuss that in an open session okay uh do you have any information that the U.S government is involved in a

U.S government is involved in a disinformation campaign to deny the existence of certain uaps I can't go beyond what I've already stated publicly in my news Nation

interview because it touches other sensitivities okay I'll yield the balance of my time back thank you Mr chairman Miss Fox

thank you Mr chairman and I thank our Witnesses for being here today um Mr garush in your sworn testimony you state that the United States government

has retrieved supposedly extraterrestrial spacecraft and other UAP related artifacts you go so far as to state that the U.S is in possession

of quote non-human spacecraft end quote and that some of these artifacts have circulated with defense contractors

several other former military and intelligence officials have come forward with similar allegations albeit and non-public settings

however Dr Sean Kirkpatrick the director of aaro previously testified before Congress

that there has been and I quote no credible evidence thus far of

extraterrestrial activity or of quote off-world technology brought to the attention of the office to your

knowledge is that statement correct it's not accurate I believe Dr kirpatrick mentioned he had about 30 individuals that have come to Arrow thus far a few

of those individuals have also come to arrow that I also interviewed and I know what they provided Dr Kirkpatrick in their team okay I was able to evaluate okay information I need to go on sure

but um my understanding that this his statement is accurate

came from a direct quote and this contradiction is a perfect example of why we need to inject transparency into our government and for another example

look no further than the pitiful response to the Chinese spy balloon debacle earlier this year you may remember the mass confusion that

ensued when the balloon was first spotted over Montana four days after it first entered U.S airspace over Alaska the Biden administration's initial

inability to address the object grew into a continuous series of embarrassments after news of the balloon reached the Main Street mainstream media

we were assured that the balloon posed no threat to our security however after the balloon was allowed to Transit the entire continental United States fighter

jets were scrambled off the coast of South Carolina to shoot it down this flip-flopping and obfuscation caused needless confusion fear and panic

across the country It's My Hope Mr chairman that this sort of confusion will not be repeated we should investigate the extent to

which elements of our government possess or do not possess information that is of critical value to the American people we owe it to the citizens of this nation to

make sure that our government is transparent and accountable we must make sure that our government provides answers and Congress must do its duty to

solicit those answers with that Mr chairman I yield back yeah Mr Frost

thank you Mr chairman in 2022 NASA announced that it was commissioning an independent study team to examine uaps the NASA team is comprised of

scientists across different fields as well as former astronauts and pilots in May the independent study team held that its first public meeting which included the perspectives from NASA senior

leaders as well as perspectives from the Department of Defense and intelligence agencies the NASA study team is also expected to release its first report pretty soon and I think it's safe to say

that we all eagerly await its results Mr Graves how might NASA's research influence the commercial industry regarding safety and UAP I think NASA has a big role to play as far as

commercial Aviation safety and it's one of their original charges as an organization one of the recommendations that have been put forward is to utilize their existing Aviation safety reporting

system to serve as a short-term fill and trusted platform for Pilots that want to report on UAP it also has built-in analytics capability and is funded by Congress gotcha and also Mr graves are

there any other industries that may be influenced by the NASA research on the uaps and and if so how so well I think there is a a large swath of commercial capabilities that could be brought to

bear on this topic from space-based or ground-based sensor systems that are available open source or through commercial marketplaces and I think NASA's work as they work to identify and highlight specific parameters that can

be found we can take that information and and promulgate this through the public sector so that we can have more open conversation about what we're seeing yeah you know in 2020 the Department of

Defense released several videos of uaps um including Mr freyr's experience U.S

Navy Pilots that recorded footage in 2021 the office of the Director of National Intelligence released a preliminary report on UAP events NASA administrator Bill Nelson stated that

NASA would begin to investigate these events in fact I sit on science based and Technology committee and when we were doing a hearing with the NASA administrator Bill Nelson I asked you

know why NASA needed to be fully funded and there were many great reasons but one of them was actually had to do with uaps I mean he actually mentioned you know is there life out there I don't

know and so either way uh these actions ultimately LED NASA to assemble the independent study team that I mentioned earlier also in 2021 Harvard University

stood up the Galileo project to research and examine the origins of UAP so it seems like both you know from NASA and in the higher education Community

because of the work that you all have done and people standing up you know I think we're seeing some of that stigma um slowly going away Mr uh freyr do you believe that military Pilots feeling

empowered to share their UAP experiences has directly uh impacted the scientific communities research goals on this topic I would say yes I would say that you

know starting in 2017 when it actually came out it took that stigma away I mean I've talked to multiple Senators who said prior to that if you'd mention UAP you'd have been laughed off the hill and

now you've we're sitting here today for a public testimony on what's actually going on you know I I'm hoping that this Curve will be more of an exponential and we'll get more and more transparent to

the level that we can yeah yeah and yeah I mean it's important I couldn't imagine you know I'm not a pilot but I used to fly gliders in Civil Air Patrol uh yeah

I got yeah um and so either way I mean I couldn't imagine you know being being in the glider and seeing something um and then not feeling like I had the

agency to talk about it um Mr Graves can you discuss the importance of seeking scientists to sit on your Advisory Board absolutely I think ultimately this is going to be a scientific problem and not only that

it's also an engineering problem I've been working with American Institute of Aeronautics and astronautics to help them stand up a UAP integration committee to help integrate their engineering prowess into this problem

and so yes very much I think this is an engineering and scientific problem as much as national security problem and how might Congress help to facilitate Partnerships between the scientific community and the UAP focus groups

within government well I think one of the things they can do is to have these types of hearings to communicate to the public that this is a topic of Interest I think that there is a pseudo-market if you will of

interested capabilities and talent that want to approach this topic and we're seeing that start to grow now so I think continued conversation reduction of stigma is going to allow that to flourish and allow answers to help

generate themselves 100 well thank you all for being here and thank you for your work I think it's important that we keep our top scientific Minds focused on this issue and look for ways to increase

collaboration thank you so much I yield back Mr Comer thank you Mr chairman let me say I want to thank you for having this hearing and I want to thank Mr burchett Miss Luna for leading this

hearing and with that I yield my five minutes to Mr burchett thank you Mr chairman I'm going to direct this I believe to Mr grush but if any of you all feel like you need to jump in Just

Jump Right In we're good as the U.S

government become aware of actual evidence of extraterrestrial otherwise unexplained forms of intelligence and if so when do you think this first occurred I like to use the term non-human I don't

like to denote origin keeps the aperture open both scientifically certainly like I've discussed publicly uh previously 1930s okay

can you give me the names and titles of the people with direct first-hand knowledge and access to some of this crash retrieval some of these crash retrieval programs and maybe which

facilities military bases that would the recovered material would be in and I know a lot of Congress talked about we're going to go to Area 51 and you know and there's nothing there anymore anyway

it's just you know and we move like a glacier as soon as we announce it I'm sure the moving vans would pull up but please uh I can't discuss that publicly but I did provide that information both to the

Intel committees and the Inspector General and we could get that in this gift if we were allowed to get in a skiff with you would that be probably what you would think sure if you had the appropriate accesses yeah uh what

special access programs cover this information and how is it possible that they have evaded oversight for so long I do know the names once again I can't discuss that publicly and how they've

evaded oversight I in a closed setting I can tell you the specific tradecraft use all right when do you think those programs began and who authorized them

I do know a lot of that information but that's something I can't discuss publicly because since many of y'all want to jump in on any of this you're more than welcome to um what level of security clearance is

required to fully access these programs well anybody who has uh and I say that because myself um representing Gates and representative

Luna were basically turned away at one point at Eglin so please go out ahead certainly difference between member access and say somebody like me but anybody who has a you know tssci

clearance and meets the eligibility criteria the access adjudicative Authority should be able to Grant you access so just to be put a fine point on that

there's nothing that you're aware of that's above special access program classification if there's anything actually Above Top Secret executive order 13526 delineates

the classification levels right and but I I draw a point on that because we can have access to to those programs and so the notion that we're not being given that access sort of defies our typical

muscle memory here in Congress thank you Mr Merchant I'll yield back to you thank you Mr Gates um along those lines title 10 you might not know this or not but title 10 and title 50 authorization

as they they seem to say they're inefficient it so who gets to decide this in your opinion in the past uh it's a group of career

senior executive officials okay are they government officials do what both in and outs of government and that's about as far as all right

well that's it leads to my next question which private corporations are directly involved in this program how much taxpayer money has been invested in these programs to your knowledge

I mean we know we know we we audit the Pentagon every year and I've been here five years and they failed the dadgum thing every year I lose over a billion dollars a year we

think and I've told the Department of Defense maybe 60 percent of their assets are unaccounted for whatever the heck that means in the Public's sector you go to jail for that kind of crap so tell me

yeah I know when I um I'm a dollar off of my DTS travel voucher I get hammered but uh seems like it doesn't work if you sell over six if you sell over 600 worth of stuff on eBay now you get a call from

the IRS so please what corporations yeah I don't know these specific metrics towards the end of your question uh the specific corporations I did provide uh to the Committees in specific divisions and

uh I spent 11 and a half hours at both Intel committees okay has there been any has there been an active U.S government

disinformation campaign to deny the existence of unidentified aerial phenomena and if so why it can't go beyond what I've already exposed publicly about that

okay I've been told to ask you what that what that is and how to get it in the record which uh what have you stated publicly in your interviews for the Congressional

Record uh yeah if you uh reference my news Nation interview and I talk about a multi-decade you know campaign to um disenfranchise public interest

basically yeah thank you I apologize for Mr chairman I yield back negative 21 seconds thank you Mrs ocasio-cortez thank you Mr chairman and thank you to

our Witnesses for coming here today I do concur with the ranking members as well as several other members here on this committee that this is a committee for whistleblowers and for the protection of whistleblowers as well so we understand

what you're putting um on the table here and we're putting on the line here and we thank you for that uh Mr Crush you sat on the unidentified anomalous phenomenon task

force created in the 2020 ndaa correct yes there have been some things that uh that have been mentioned here during this hearing that I wanted to pick up on um Mr Graves you mentioned specifically

during the answer to one of your questions you named Boeing contractors um being engaged in an incident regarding this Red Cube about a football

um football field wide I was wondering if you could speak a little bit about the interaction or Mr gresh either of you the interactions between defense contractor companies and nauap related

programs or activities so I'll just say that the information about uh the contractor himself were provided by a witness and I have no particular detail in that relationship Mr gresh

the kind of General unclass wave tops certainly the contractors you know or the metal Benders so to speak the ones actually uh doing specific performance on government contracts are they required

um to issue any disclosure regarding UAP sightings or do they engage in any uh reporting around this uh in terms of the contractors not that I'm aware of they

do not okay now when it comes to notification that you had mentioned about um irap program I read programs we have

seen defense contractors abuse their contracts before through this committee I have seen it personally and I have also seen the notification requirements to Congress abused

um I am wondering one of the loopholes that we see in the law is that there is at least from my vantage point is that depending on what we're seeing is that there are no actual

definitions or requirements for notification are there what methods of notification Did You observe like when they say they notified Congress how did they do that do you

have insight into that uh for certain irad activities I can only think of one's conventional in nature um sometimes they throw flow through

certain I'll say sap programs that have cognizant authority over the air force or something and those are congressionally reported compartments but ired is literally internal to the

contractor so as long as it's money either profits private investment Etc they can do whatever they want to put a finer point on it when there is a requirement for any agency or company to

notify or any agency to notify Congress do they contact the chairman of a committee do they get them on the phone specifically is this through an email to

hypothetically a dead email box a lot of it comes through what they call the PPR periodic program review process if it's a you know a sap or controlled Access program equity and then those go

to the specific committees whether it be the SAS cast thank you um I apologize I just my time is limited um Mr Graves one of your main concerns that the FAA currently does not have an

official process to receive reports of UAP from Pilots or others correct correct and um in your experience what data should the Aero program prioritize

for potential collection we have you know location date time but are there other specific activity characteristics that should be included in these reports certainly I think that there's two

categories that would be important one would be kinematics and understanding the specifics of how the vehicle or objects are moving and the second would be a more zoomed out approach of being able to look at origin and destination

after before the incident as well as getting a better contextual understanding of how these uh these objects are interact with each other thank you now because I only have a minute left I

apologize we only have five minutes today but um for the record if you were me where would you look titles programs

departments regions if you could just name anything and I put that as an open question to the three of you I'd be happy to give you that in a

closed environment I can tell you specifically thank you um Commander fraver I would say and I've told people that you have to know where to look they're not going to divulge it to you because

the classification levels but if you know where to look and who to talk to which is exactly Mr Gresham point you then you then you have them okay Mr Graves I was an operator so I was defending on folks like Mr garage to do

that homework okay thank you very much I yield back to the chair Mr Biggs thanks thanks Mr chairman I thank the witnesses for being here today

I'm over here thank you so much for being here um

I I want to get into uh specifics here and and a reason I'm going to go this way is because you've talked a bit about um

what I would call misdirection by official U.S government with regard to

official U.S government with regard to uaps right and so I'm going to get to that in a second but last week White House NSC spokesman John Kirby stated that uaps are having an impact on our training

ranges and needs to be treated as a legitimate issue do you concur with the statements that's for each of you yes yes okay um

now having said that I'm going to take you to specific instances around the Phoenix Valley because that's where I I live and in 97 we had the famous

Phoenix light case I don't know if any of you are familiar with that there were there were two things that went along with that and the explanation was

military training range off Luke and the Barry Goldwater range do you know anything different other than the official explanation of those lights only what's in the public vernacular

about it that was outside the scope of my duties and if we wanted to just my question along with my colleague from New York Ms ocasio-cortez if we wanted

to find out more about that where would we go to find the files and who where and who would we address and are you gonna tell me we need to go to a skiff so you can tell us in a skiff

I could potentially give you a vector on that that specific case I'm not I mean I'm familiar with it in terms of public but uh I I give you a vector in closed environment yeah that would be good thank you

so if if it's true that uaps are having an impact on training ranges and this Administration considers it to be a legitimate issue what steps can Congress take to address training range impacts

and I say that having two very large training ranges in my state and so we'll start with Mr gravesen going down the panel some of the initial procedures have been

implemented uh such as within the United States Navy that have a range value report that gathers information from Pilots I understand that a service-wide reporting mechanism is still pending

however that would be a great Next Step not only for gathering information but for showing the troops that is an acceptable topic and reducing the stigma is okay please all of you continue

yeah as a recipient of a lot of those training range reports sometimes we only get contextual kind of oral uh reporting it'd be nice if they attached all sensor

data and there's a system in place that can handle multiple classifications of data and that's an issue with the F-35 right that jet was never built to be an ISR platform and it's a pain in the well

to say but to get that data off so yeah great thank you yeah I would agree with the previous two being a user of those training ranges that the data has to be out there you have to acknowledge that you're seeing

them and then you have to collect the data right now you get the report someone says I saw something but no one collects the radar data to back it up and do research okay do you believe that the 2019 classification guidelines for

uaps interferes with the federal government's ability to be transparent with the American people and do you think we need to be more transparent with the American people

all of you yeah I'll say yes to that familiar with the the at least the UAP task force 2019 security classification guide I think it's fair um I did actually help uh author that

with the oh yeah you got a bias that way but I will say about declassifying videos I mean I've seen some of the videos of you know the recent shoot down and I saw no reason

that couldn't have been released as long as they mask you know some data the American people deserve to see that that imagery and full motion video uh I would think well in my opinion I

will say things are over classified I know for a fact the video or the pictures that came out in the 20 things 2020 report that had the stuff off the east coast they were taken with an iPhone off the east coast a buddy of mine was one of the

senior people there and he said they're originally classified a tssci and my question to him was what's tssci about these they're an iPhone right literally off the vacapes that's not tssci so they're over classified and as soon as

they do that they go in a vault and then you all have to look for them yeah so with the over classification that may be one way are there other ways that the dod or intelligence agencies are keeping

this information from the American people or even from Congress I think part of that has been uh not encouraging reporting if the problem is not something that can be measured it's not something that's going to be fixed

okay very good with I'm out of time and I thank you Mr chairman I know you'll bet uh first of all without objection representative Nick Langworthy of New York has waved on the subcommittee for

purpose of questioning Witnesses in today's subcommittee hearing and then we go to Mr Burleson thank you Mr chairman um appreciate you guys coming out today

testifying look I've been here for six months and I'm pretty skeptical I don't trust anything in this town and um and so I and I think that's because I'm from Missouri you've got to

show me right um with that being said um there's been a lot of things that have been said um in in the public uh Mr crush and and

so I want to get down to if we can some specifics right so um at one point you had said that they're they're my there has been harmful

activity or Progressive activity has any of the activity um been aggressive been hostile that in your reports

I know of multiple colleagues of mine that got physically injured and the activity and I gotta if I buy uaps or

buy by people within the federal government both okay so there has been activity by by alien or

non-human technology and or beings that has caused harm to humans uh I can't get into the specifics in an open environment but at least the

activity that I personally witnessed and not to be very careful here because you don't you know they tell you never to acknowledge tradecraft right so what I personally witness myself and my wife

was very disturbing okay um one of my constituents actually sent this next question and I figured I'd ask

it since I had the same thought you've said that U.S and has intact spake spacecraft you said that the government has alien bodies or alien species

have you seen have you have you seen the spacecraft I have to be careful to describe what I've seen firsthand and not in this environment but I could answer that

question behind behind closed doors here and have you seen any of the bodies that's something I've I've not witnessed myself okay and so with that being said

you know the other statement that has been made that was intriguing to me because and it's intriguing because my my view has been that we are billions of

light years away from any any other system and the concept that an alien species that's technologically advanced enough to travel billions of light years

gets here and somehow is incompetent enough to not survive Earth or crashes is is something that I find a little bit far-fetched and with that being said you

have mentioned that there's interdimensional potential could you expound on that oh yeah to answer your first question and you know I'm here as a fact witness an expert but I will give you a a

theoretical framework at least to work off to kind of expose uh crashes uh regardless of uh you know your level of sentience right you know planes crash

cars crash and number of sorties what however High a small percentage are going to end in you know Mission failure if you will as we say in the in the air force uh and then in terms of uh

multi-dimensionality that kind of thing the the framework that I'm familiar with for example is something called the holographic principle uh both uh it's it

derives itself from general relativity and quantum mechanics and that is if you want to imagine uh 3D objects such as yourself casting a shadow onto a 2d

surface that's the holographic principle so you can be projected quasi-projected from higher dimensional space to lower dimensional it's a scientific Trope that you can actually cross literally as far

as I understand but there's probably guys with phds that we can probably but you have not seen any documentation that that's what's occurring uh only a theoretical framework discussion okay

um okay Occam's razor my is that this these aircraft have they been identified that they are being produced by

by domestic um you know military and um contractors is there any evidence that that's what's being recovered uh not to my knowledge plus the

recoveries predate a lot of our Advanced programs that I previously am waiting of so um would it be safe to say that there could be a scenario today where you have

an aircraft that crashes and because it's been involved in one program from One Federal agency and the but the but the agency that retrieves it is not

aware of that program and to them it appears alien in origin I mean that's a hypothetical situation I'm not aware of any uh historical

situation that would match that that you described so you're not aware it has not happened that you're aware of that I'm aware of um thank you Mr chairman I yield back

several months ago my office received a protected disclosure from Eglin Air Force Base indicating that there was a UAP incident that required my attention I sought a briefing regarding that

episode and brought with me congressman burchett and congresswoman Luna we asked to see any of the evidence that had been taken by flight crew in this endeavor

and to observe any radar signature as long as as well as to meet with the flight crew we were not afforded access to all of the flight crew and initially

we were not afforded access to images and to radar thereafter we had a bit of a discussion about how authorities flow

in the United States of America and we did see the image and we did meet with one member of the flight crew who took the image the image was of something

that I am not able to attach to any human capability either from the United States or from any of our adversaries and I'm somewhat informed on the matter having served on the armed services

committee for seven years having served on the committee that oversees DARPA and Advanced Technologies for several years um when we spoke with the flight crew and when he showed us the photo that

he'd taken I asked why the video wasn't engaged why we didn't have a FLIR system that worked here's what he said they were out on a test mission that day over

the Gulf of Mexico and when you're on a test mission you're supposed to have clear air space not supposed to be anything that shows up and they saw a sequence of four craft

in a clear diamond formation for which there is a radar sequence that I and I alone have observed in the United States Congress

one of the pilots goes to check out that diamond formation and sees a large floating what I can only describe as an orb again like I said not of any human

capability that I'm that I'm aware of and when he approached he said that his radar went down he said that his flear system malfunctioned and that he had to

manually take this image from one of the lenses and it was not automatic automated in collection as you would typically see in a test mission so uh I

guess I'll start with Commander fraver what in how should we think about the fact that this craft that was approached

by our pilot uh had the capability of disarming a number of the sensor and collection systems on that craft well I think this goes to that National Security side and you can go back

through history of things showing up at certain areas and disabling our capabilities which is disheartening and for us I mean like I said it it completely disabled the radar and aircraft when I tried to do it the

only way we could see it is passively which is how he got that image so I think that's a that's a concern on what are these doing not only how do they operate but their capabilities inside to

do things like this and and how should we think about for craft moving in a very clear formation equidistant from one another

in a diamond in all of the phenomenon perhaps Mr grave that you've analyzed um have we ever seen multiple craft in a single formation I have one particular case and that was

uh during the gimbal incident the recording on the at FLIR system shows a single object that rotates um you hear the pilots refer to a fleet of objects that is not visible on the

FLIR system and that was something that I witnessed during the debrief as part of the radar data on the situational awareness page I would like to add whoever Congressman there's a small a

small bit of a uh anger I would say I would feel that those Pilots are still uh facing that difficulty in reporting this topic and they don't have the tools to be able to mitigate this issue it just goes to show how serious this is

and why this is such an important issue for our pilots and for our nation it was stated explicitly to me by these test pilots that if you have a u of AP

experience the best thing you can do for your career is forget it and not tell anyone because any type of reporting either above the surface or below the surface does have a perceived

consequence to these people and that is a culture we must change if we want to get to the truth Mr chairman I I would observe that perhaps as we as we move forward from this hearing there are some

obvious next steps every person watching this knows that we need to meet with Mr grush in a secure compartmentalized facility so that we can get fulsome answers that do not put him in Jeopardy

and that and that give us the information we need second I would suggest that the radar images from that were collected of this formation of

craft out of Eglin Air Force Base and specifically the actual image taken by the actual flight crew that we can actually validate be provided to the

committee subpoenaed if necessary so that we're able to track how to get this type of reporting and Analysis done in a more fulsome way that would be my recommendation humbly as a guest here of

the fine oversight committee I yield back Miss mace thank you Mr chairman and good morning to our Witnesses who are testifying

today I want to thank each of you for being here to discuss a topic of grave importance to our national security earlier this year Chinese spy balloon was shot down off the coast of my home

state of South Carolina since the Roswell incident in 1947 many Americans have wondered about the dangers of unknown objects crisscrossing our skies

whether these are uaps or weather phenomena advanced technology from American allied or enemy forces or something more out of this world so my first question I have several

questions and I'll I if we can just be quick on these first two I'm going to ask each of you the same question and then I'll get to each of you individually the first one when you reported your experiences with a UAP did

any of you face any repercussions with your superiors yes or no no I've actually never seen anything personally believe it or not so all right and then do do you believe there's

an active disinformation campaign within our government to deny existence of uaps yes or no I don't have an answer to that as previous previously stated publicly

yes I think previously with like Project Blue Book yes but currently I don't speak for the United States government okay thank you um I have a few questions for Mr Graves

um what percentage of UAP sightings in your belief go unreported by our Pilots this is an approximation based off of my personal experience speaking with a number of Pilots but I would estimate we're somewhere near five percent

reporting perhaps so like 95 basically don't report seeing UAP that's just my personal estimate um in the incident off Virginia Beach do you believe the Navy took the danger to

your aircraft seriously after it was reported absolutely um a few questions for Mr favor as an expert Naval aviator have you ever seen an object that looked and moved like the

Tic Tac UAP did the Tic Tac UAP move in such a way that defied the laws of physics the way we understand them yes mini dismissed UAP reports as classified

weapons testing by our own government but in your experience as a pilot does our government typically test Advanced weapon systems right next to multi-million dollar Jets without

informing our Pilots no we have test ranges for that it took over 15 years for your encounter with the Tic Tac to be Declassified do you feel there was a good reason to

prevent lawmakers from having access to this footage no I just think it was ignored when it happened and it just sat somewhere in a file never got reported in a door it

happens a lot up here shocker Mr gresh a couple of questions for you too sir this morning what percentage of uaps do you feel are adequately investigated by the US government of the five percent that

are reported um I can only speak for my personal leadership over at NGA I tried to look at every report that came through that I could triage so do you believe that

officials at the highest levels of our national security apparatus have unlawfully withheld information from Congress and subverted our oversight Authority

there are certain elected leaders that had more information that I'm not sure what they've shared with certain gang of eight members or Etc but uh certainly I would not be surprised okay you've

stated that the government is in possession of potentially non-human spacecraft based on your experience and extensive conversations with experts do you believe our government has made

contact with intelligent extraterrestrials something I can't discuss in public setting um okay and I can't ask when you think

this occurred if you believe we have crashed craft uh stated earlier do we have the bodies of the pilots who piloted this craft as I've stated publicly already in my

news Nation interview biologics came with some of these recoveries yeah um were they I can or non-human biologics non-human and that was the assessment of

people with direct knowledge on the program I talked to that are currently still on the program and was this documentary references video photos eyewitness like how would that be determined

the specific documentation I would have to talk to you in a skiff about gotcha um okay you may or may not be able to answer my last question and maybe we get into a skiff at the next hearing that we have

but who in the government either what agency sub-agency what contractors who should be called into the next hearing about uaps either in a public setting or

even in a private setting and you probably can't name names but what agencies or organizations contractors Etc do we need to call in to get these questions answered whether it's about funding what programs are happening and

what's out there I can give you a specific cooperative and hostile witness list of specific individuals that were in those and how soon can we get that list I'm happy to provide that to you after

the hearing super thank you and I yield back okay now we have Mr langworthy's here okay thank you very much uh I'd like to thank

uh all of the witnesses for being here today uh to discuss this very unique topic and I'd like to jump right into my questions if you don't mind uh Commander fraver can you briefly describe your

background yeah it was a enlisted Marine Naval Academy graduate Navy flew for 18 years got a master's from University of Houston and I've worked in the private

sector for the last what now 19 16 years 17 years I do a lot of Defense work so really gold-plated credentials uh Commander fraver have we have all seen

the floating Tic Tac video uh that you engage with on November 14 2004. can you

briefly talk about why you were off the coast of San Diego that day yeah we were at a workup with all the battle groups so we integrate the ships with the carrier the airwing with the carrier and we start working so we're

doing an air defense to hone not only our skills but those are the USS Princeton when they had been tracking them for two weeks the problem was that there was never manned aircraft Airborne when they were tracking them and this

was the first day and unfortunately we were the ones that were born and went and saw it do you remember the weather that day was it cloudy or windy or anything out of the ordinary on the Pacific coast it was

actually if if you're familiar with San Diego was a perfect day light winds no White Caps clear skies not a cloud it was for flying it was the best

now is it true that you saw in your words a 40-foot flying Tick-Tock shaped object that's correct or for some people that can't know what a Tic Tac is it's a

giant flying propane tank fair enough did this object come up on radar or interfere with your radar or the USS Princeton the Princeton tractor

the Nimitz tractor the E2 tracked it we'd never saw it on our Radars our Fire Control radar has never picked it up the other airplane that took the video did get it on a radar as soon as it tried to lock it it jammed the radar spit the

lock and he rapidly switched over to the targeting pod which you can do in the uh in the F-18 from what you saw that day and what you've seen on video did you see any source of propulsion from the flying

object including on any potential thermal scans from your aircraft no there's none there's no IR plume coming out and Chad who took the video went through all the EO which is black and

white TV and the IR modes and there's no visual signs of a promotion it's just sitting in space at twenty thousand feet in in your career have you ever seen a propulsion system that creates no

thermal exhaust no can you describe how the aircraft maneuvered uh abruptly uh very determinate it knew exactly what it was doing it was aware

of our presence and it had acceleration rates I mean it went from zero to matching our speed and no time at all now if the fastest plane on Earth was trying to do these Maneuvers that you

saw would it be capable of doing that no not even close and just to confirm this object had no wings correct no wings now was the aircraft that you were

flying was it armed no never felt threatened at all if if the aircraft was armed you believe that your aircraft or any aircraft in

possession of the United States could have shot the Tic Tac down I'd say no just on the performance it was just left

in a Split Second it looks like we have a problem here that needs further investigation yes

uh in your belief is this this flying Tic Tac I mean is this is it capable of being the product of any

other Nation on the Earth no I actually I said like I said earlier I think it defies current Material Science and the ability to develop that much propulsion and I know there's been some physicists of them calculations

which is beyond anything that we have well either the United States has an adversary here in this world that we don't know or we really have some serious investigations to do I I really

appreciate you being here um is there anything else about the November 14 2004 incident that you think is important for this committee to know that you haven't been asked here today

no I I you know it's it's been said it's probably the most credible UFO sighting in history based on all the sensors that we're tracking it and then for us to get Visual and to go against the naysayers it's something on the screen or whatever

I mean there's four sets of human eyeballs we're all very credible of the six of us that were involved in the thing including the video every one of us is going to do 20 plus years in the military in very responsible positions

so I'd say the world needs to know that this it's not a joke thank you very much for your testimony here today for all of you and I yield back Mr chairman Mr Douglas

thank you Mr chairman and thank you all for being here and the courage it took to come forward and and again the sacrifice that each you have made um I serve on the national security subcommittee for the financial services

committee so I really want to stay in the National Security Lane uh if I may um so when we think about traditional adversaries and both us towards them and

them towards us you know we probe their capabilities we look for weaknesses uh and we we collect that data that reconnaissance for in the in the event we need it in the future

um for each of you yes or no question based off of your own experience or the data that you've been privy to is there any indication that these uaps could be

essentially collecting reconnaissance information Mr Graves yes Mr grush Fair assessment yeah Mr fraver very possible

again in the National Security of aim is it possible that these uaps would be probing our capabilities yes or no Mr Graves yes Rush yes Craver definitely

is it possible that these uaps are testing for vulnerabilities in our current systems yes yes possible do you feel based off of your experience

and the information that you've been privy to that these UOP uaps provide an existential threat to the National Security of the United States Mr Graves

potentially yes sir potentially same answer potentially yeah I'd say definitely potentially Mr Graves and fraver you know in the event that your encounters have become hostile would you

have would have would you have had the capability to defend yourself your crew your aircraft absolutely not sir no is based off of the information that

you've been privy to is there any indication that these uaps are interested in our nuclear technology and capabilities yes

by external observation sure that could be a fair assessment yeah yes is there any indication that department of energy is involved in UAP data collection and housing I don't have an

answer I can't confirm or deny that in a public setting and could you do it in a in a secure setting yes Mr favor no I don't know

Mr chairman um you know I think I'm the last member to go but there clearly is a threat to the National Security of the United States

of America as members of Congress we have a responsibility to maintain oversight and be aware of these activities

so that if appropriate we take action I would encourage the chairman to demand that we have any and all but in particular Mr grush talk to us in a

skiff and if that access is denied I will personally volunteer to initiate the Holmen rule against any Personnel or any

program or any agency that denies act access to Congress Mr chairman with that I will yield the remainder of my time to my fellow colleague from Tennessee Mr Bircher

thank you Mr chairman thank you Mr ogles for the great questions brother um Mr grush I might have asked this before but I want to make sure do you have any personal knowledge of someone who's possibly been injured working on

Legacy UAP reverse engineering yes okay um how are they injured was it is it something like a radioactive type

situation or something we didn't understand I've heard people talk about Havana syndrome type incidences what was your recollection of that I can't get

into the specifics but you could imagine assessing an unknown unknown uh there's a lot of potentialities you can't fully prepare for how do you think we ought to handle UAP whistleblower complaints like

yours in the in the future yeah there were some issue issues mine so you know PPD 19 process it goes to the Intel committees uh either through

ppd19 or icd-120 there's not a good way for the intelligence Community Inspector General to provide that to other committees and I asked my information to

be sent to the House and Senate armed services committee because there are title 10 equities at play but there was no smooth process to do so yeah it's a trash can

um are you aware of any individuals that are participating in reverse engineering programs for non-terrestrial craft personally yes uh you know anything to be willing to testify if there were protections for

them certainly closed door and assurances uh the breaking their NDA they're not going to get administratively punished for so

yeah I yield Mr chair thank you um I'm going to do something a little bit out of the ordinary here we're going to give three people a chance at an additional three minutes so

Mr merchant do you want to keep going why don't you come back to me Mr chairman Miss Luna if she's on is she on that list

sure chairman I'd like to submit for the record an article by news nation and it follows Mr grush's full interview for the record without objection thank you

Mr grush why is it that you referred to the phenomenon as non-human intelligence why deviate from the basis of extraterrestrial life

I think the phenomenon is uh very complex and I like to leave an open mind analytically to specific origin when you say specific origin are you

referring can you elaborate on that for those that might if it's a traditional extraterrestrial origin or something else that we don't quite understand uh from either biological or

astrophysics perspective yeah I just like the keep an open mind on what it could be yeah okay and referring to your new interview you had referenced specific

treaties between governments um article 3 of the nuclear arms treaty with Russia identify as uaps it specifically mentions them to your knowledge are there safety measures in place with foreign governments or other

superpowers to avoid an escalatory situation in the event that a UAP um malevolent event occurs uh yeah you're referring to actual a

public treaty in the U.N register uh it's funny you mentioned that yeah the agreement on measures to reduce the risk of outbreak a nuclear war sign in 1971 uh unclassified treaty publicly

available and If you cite the George Washington University National Security archives you will find the Declassified

in 2013 specific Provisions in the specific uh Red Line flash message traffic with the specific codes pursuant

to article 3 an article uh also situation two which is in the the previously classified NSA archive what I would recommend and I I tried to get

access but I got a wall of Silence at the White House uh was the specific incidents when those um message traffic was used I think uh

some scholarship on that would open the door to a further investigation using those publicly available information thank you and then my last question with 51 seconds remaining you mentioned white

collar crimes potentially being um taking place in regards to a cover-up can you please elaborate I have concerns based on the interviews I conducted

under my official duties of potential violations of the federal acquisition regulations the far thank you very much chairman I yield the remainder of my time

okay we'll go to Mr Raskin for three minutes thanks Mr chair and I think the witnesses for their endurance and service today

Mr favor you've described your episode in detail now and you call it uh the most credible UF site UFO sighting in history um

but I wonder was this the first time that you encountered a UFO or a UAP in 2004 yes

yes and what was your general attitude or perspective on the UFO discussion before that happened

I never felt that we were alone with all the planets out there but I wasn't a UFO person I wasn't I wasn't watching History Channel and mufon and all that and

um have you had experiences or encounters since that happened no um and so have you formed any general

conclusions about what you think you experienced then yes I think what we experienced was like I said well beyond the Material Science and the capabilities that we had at the time that we have currently or that

we're going to have in the next 10 to 20 years very good Mr grush um you've been able to answer in great detail on certain questions and then other things you say you're not able uh

to respond to can you just explain where you're Drawing the Line uh what's the basis for that yeah based on my dopser Security review and what they've

determined that is unclassified I see so you're answering any questions that just call upon your knowledge of an unclassified questions but anything that

relates to classified matters you're not commenting on in this context in an open session but happy to participate in a closed session at the right level yeah okay

um and Mr Graves you've said that there are dozens of fellow Pilots military Pilots are there also commercial pilots

who've uh encountered the same the same kind of sightings that you described before they are similar Pilots commercial pilots have uh less range and less sensors to be able to reach out and look

for objects over a wide swaths of airspace and so Pilots are seeing them commercial pilots RCM and they're typically closer and the range of what they're seeing is is pretty large

what is the most Vivid concrete sighting with the naked eye of the objects that you described before the cube-like objects certainly I think the most uh Vivid sighting of that would

have been near a near mid-air that we had at the entrance to our working area one of these objects was completely stationary at the exact entrance to our working areas not only geographically

but also at altitude so it was right where all the Jets are going essentially on the Eastern Seaboard the two aircraft flew within about 50 feet of the object and that was a very close visual

sighting and you were in one of the aircraft I was not I was there when the pilot landed he canceled the mission after and I was there he was in the ready room with all his gear on with his uh mouth open and I asked him what the

problem was and he said he almost hit one of those darn things he said he was 50 feet away from it yes sir and his description of the object was consistent with the description you gave us before

a dark gray or a black Cube inside of a clear sphere inside of a clear sphere yes um and with no self-evident propulsion system no wings no IR energy

coming off of the vehicle um nothing tethering it to the ground and that was that was primarily what we're experiencing out there I'm over time thank you very much for your service and I yield back to Mr chairman

very good Mr Burchette thank you Mr chairman this is for all three of you all starting with Mr grades why did you come forward on this issue I came forward because I felt that my colleagues did not have a way to

mitigate the safety threat and I wanted to help them I was trained as an aviation safety officer by the Navy and this seemed it just it just felt right I felt like I had to help the folks that were still flying and dealing with this

purely a sense of Duty I first sworn oath when I was a Cadet 18 years ago and I I still uphold that even out of the uniform Commander

that was pestered by a friend and I asked why and he said you're the one person that they can't discredit and you'll add credibility to the New York Times article and so after about six times I said okay

um this town isn't um made unfortunately by people like you all we thank you and I do want to also thank the people in the audience and people that are watching this it can't be

people all over the world that have kept this issue alive you've endured criticism and derogatory remarks and we're trying to get to the bottom of it and so God

bless y'all thank you all so much we really appreciate you guys and gals um that's why we need term limits y'all keep clapping those politicians just keep talking so

let me ask you all how can the public contribute to UAP reporting and what Avenues you think are available to the public to report these sightings well right now I don't think there is a

lot of public options for the every man to be able to report on this I think even for professionals that have sensor data that are seeing these on a regular basis they're still hesitant to come

forward and so for the general public I think encouraging the conversations that we're having today looking for Technology Solutions that can be distributed so the objective data can be gathered is the first place to go Mr

garage I'll just touch on The Whistleblower side if it's I do encourage you know current former military intelligence community in Industry contractors to come forward in

a legal way either through the IC or DOD or whatever the cognizant's ig's are um to lead you know lead you know join me in this discussion

commander and I I guess I should say this for the record my daddy was United States Marine Corps First Marine Division so overall yes sir he was old

school him and chesty puller on pillow so thank you brother wow yes um I'm not I'm not anything like my daddy he was incredible I'm very mediocre to say the

least but go ahead you seem to be doing fine yeah uh for me uh you know I was an accident investigator so the biggest thing to learn and I think that Witnesses need to to do is one don't try

and make the fish bigger than it was stick to the facts write it down and don't speculate what you think it is because old school your decision just write the facts down we can get all the facts together and we can start to investigate and get a real honest story

instead of it was this big thank you all and I want to thank everybody we made history today Mr chairman I yield thank you much Mr Garcia I think I know now we're going to be

making some closing uh remarks and so I just wanted to say a few things first uh to our Witnesses I want to thank all of you for uh for being here with us today uh I know that um it takes a lot a lot of Courage

um you're telling um a really important information to this committee and I just want to thank you also for your all three of your service to our country um I also want to just note that today's hearing

um was both important but also serious and I want to thank our subcommittee chairman Mr groffman I think for for running a very fair and substantive hearing I do want to thank the committee

staff on both sides for the amount of work that it took to put this hearing in place um and certainly to all the members that have been involved in this issue prior to prior to the hearing I also want to

note for our Witnesses and for the public that I'm I'm a freshman member of Congress and I've only been here for seven months but this is by far the most bipartisan conversation and discussion

that I have seen happen in the Congress and I think that a topic of this significance as it relates to our national security as it relates to information that we're trying to gather

for the for the for the American public uh does bring people together and I think that's been really great uh to see um I think it's also important to note for the public we today in our hearing

we had on our side also both are full ranking member which is Mr Raskin and our vice ranking member which is Miss ocasio-cortez uh both here at our hearing I think it shows the importance

and seriousness that our side of the aisle is taking to this important hearing but also the broader issue as it relates to working with our Republican

counterparts on this committee I want to additionally add that I think and I encourage I think it's really important that we have and continue these discussions and these hearings clearly

there's a lot of information that we don't know but it's also very clear that we have to continue our investigation and accountability on asking the right questions and ensuring that they're part

of the public record one thing that was important today is some folks might wonder you know why are we asking questions that might already be out there or that have been asked before it's important that they're asked and

put into the public record as it relates to this committee and so I want to thank you for um you know answering some questions multiple times I know not just in maybe meetings you had with some members but

also here in in the public let me also just add an additional note that it's important also that our um our friends in the media and those that are not just reporting on this

hearing but that reporter on this topic that may in the future the media has an important role uh in this process and it's very important that the media engages does independent investigation

and reports on not just what happened today but what they what they see independently as what has happened around uaps in the broader community

that is also an important um public benefit that we have in trying to get the information and the facts as it relates uh to this

let me also just say finally that as a as a teacher and an educator in a long time a long time teacher and researcher that

I also really believe in following facts in doing your homework and making sure that you follow science uh as we as we try to get as much information as possible and so I want to thank you all

for for agreeing to do that today transparency is a Cornerstone of government we live in a vast Galaxy a lot of unanswered questions and thank

you all for being here today Mr chairman thank you um I'd like to one more time thank Mr Merchant Ms Luna for bringing this to

our attention it's a topic that has interest me since I was in school it was a very Illuminating uh hearing obviously I think several of us are going to look

forward to getting some answers in a more confidential setting I assume some legislation will come out of this uh I

I'm sure I apologize Mr chairman I need to compliment the folks in my office that did a lot of the work on this of Rachel and Noah sitting behind me here they're very quiet and humble but if without them this thing would not have

come off like it did so I apologize thank you um I think we're going to want to look into what we can do to make more of this information public I think there's certainly a time period

after which it should always be made public and people have been concerned about these issues like I said since I was in high school um but in any event like to thank everybody

who was here sticking through through the entire hearing without objection the members will have five legislative days to submit materials and to submit additional written questions for the

witness Witnesses which will be forward to the witnesses for their response if there's no further Business Without objection the subcommittee stands adjourned