The #1 Small Talk Rule That Makes People Like You (Stanford Communication Professor)

Your brain is like a computer. A

computer's CPU has only limited bandwidth. This is why I want to bust a

bandwidth. This is why I want to bust a myth here. Memorizing is so bad. So, I

myth here. Memorizing is so bad. So, I

tell my students it's about connection, not perfection. Okay, this is already

not perfection. Okay, this is already so, so good. Yeah. I have feelings, [music] but then I also have feelings about my feelings.

Many of us run around with that volume turned up to 11, and that gets in the way of our communication. What? So what?

Now what?

Like wow, can we do this every week?

Yeah.

I'm Sherie. I'm Jean.

I'm Matt. And we're the Tiger Sisters.

We are your Wall Street and Silicon Valley big sisters. And we're a top 10 business podcast bringing late night sister talk meets boardroom strategy.

Have you ever left a conversation and immediately been like, "Oh my god, why did I say it that way?" Communicating

clearly, confidently, and effectively is something we've discussed before. But

today, we're taking it to the next level with Professor Matt Abrahams, a world-renowned communications expert, lecturer at Stanford GSB, author, and my former coach for my TED Talk. At the end

of this episode, you will have all the tools and frameworks that you need the next time you're making small talk at a dinner table, next time you're networking, or even when you're making that big presentation. And you'll have

saved $250,000 by getting all of the key lessons from Matt's perennially sold-out class at Stanford Business School. Yes, guys,

this is a true crash course, and we're going to teach you how to think on your feet, how to calm your nerves, and how to network, and above all, how to talk to anyone. Let's get into it.

to anyone. Let's get into it.

Hi, Matt. Hey, great to be with you, Sherie and Jean. Thanks so much for coming to the Tiger Sisters podcast.

I am thrilled to be here. I've been

looking forward to this for a long time.

Okay, Matt. So, let's dive in to the challenge of how to talk to anyone. What

actually makes someone easy to talk to?

Is it confidence, curiosity, charisma, or something else? I think it's all those C's. I think we have to be

those C's. I think we have to be confident in ourselves and in our presence in the room. We have to be curious. Curiosity is a great lead-in to

curious. Curiosity is a great lead-in to most communication. And while charisma

most communication. And while charisma is something that we're not quite sure exactly what it is, I mean, we can definitely feel it, but in terms of dissecting it, it's this

idea that we have a presence, some energy, some interest, and that's what really draws people to us. And it it also means not being distracted. It

means leaning in physically. There's so

much that goes into what makes somebody interesting to talk to. And I challenge everybody to just pay attention to the people you're interested in talking to.

What is it that they're doing? What do

you notice? And from that, you can begin not to copy them, but to build some of those behaviors into your own communication. Mhm. So, Matt, why do

communication. Mhm. So, Matt, why do some people feel like you're instantly safe to open up to them versus other people, even if they're really, really nice, you feel intimidated by them. You

don't feel comfortable talking to them.

If you aren't already engaged in a conversation, we're relying on people's nonverbal presence, what they do with their bodies. If we're open, if we're

their bodies. If we're open, if we're leaning forward, if we're paying attention and looking at people, these are all signals that I'm here for you and I'm present. If I'm distant, if I'm

looking away, if I'm crossing my arms, these all send signals. There's no one correlate, like crossing arms means I shouldn't talk to that person or I don't want to be talked to, but it's the amalgamation, it's the it's all of them

together sends signals, and that's why it's important for all of us to be aware of how we show up in our nonverbal presence. At Stanford's Business School,

presence. At Stanford's Business School, where I teach strategic communication, all of my students are digitally recorded in different communication situations, and while it's very stressful, I tell people it's like going

to the dentist. Most people don't like going, but they're really glad they've been. After people watch themselves,

been. After people watch themselves, they become more aware. The reality is we're we're not that aware of what we do with our bodies when we communicate. So,

seeing it and then changing it can make us be more approachable. In the academic world, we call this immediacy. It's you

want to be immediately present with someone, and that's what's really inviting.

Okay, and so in this class, is there a common reaction that your students have when they watch themselves back? Well,

besides cringe, [laughter] it's Yes, so the biggest thing is what we call the perception gap. People come

back come all the time and say, "I appeared more confident than I felt."

And and the reason for that is we have a whole bunch of insight into what's going on in our bodies and our minds that others don't. So, I know what I was

others don't. So, I know what I was intending to say versus what I said. I I

feel my heart pounding and my knees shaking, but none of that comes across.

So, one of the biggest learnings people take away is that those internal feelings and states aren't always translated into what we do. So, it's

actually a big confidence boost for my students, and I encourage everybody listening and watching to record yourself and watch. And and I'll share exactly how I make my students do

it. First, they watch without listening.

it. First, they watch without listening.

So, they just see the nonverbal presence.

Oh, wow.

they listen without watching, so they hear what their voice does. And then

they watch all together both together, and each time they gain insight. And

again, painful, but the learning is transformational. Okay, this is already

transformational. Okay, this is already so, so good. Yeah. This is so useful.

So, what do you have them say when they film? Like do they like read something

film? Like do they like read something or first time they do it, we we teach our students to to storytelling. And as part of our class, we believe that there are five fundamental stories that everybody

in business should be able to tell. And

one is the pie in the face story, where you embarrassed yourself or something didn't go well, but you learned something. The crucible story, where you

something. The crucible story, where you were really put to the test and you had to resolve something. So, we there five choices, students pick one of them, and it's a 2 to 3 minute story. We work on what makes for a good story, how do you

bring emotion. And that's what we have

bring emotion. And that's what we have them watch for the first time.

I like that assignment because one, there's variety, not everybody's saying the same thing. And two, it's a it's a genuine true story, so people can be authentic because we we like to start off talking about authenticity, warmth,

etc. So, I everybody listening and and watching, think about a story you can tell and record yourself. I'm certain

you guys watch your videos and see what you're doing and learn from Yeah, it's it's a very useful teaching tool.

We're mostly seated, though.

Well, you can do it seated, you can do it standing. You're you're going to

it standing. You're you're going to learn a lot either way. Yeah. I've

actually done this exercise. Sorry to

I never shared with you, but I took strategic communication.

from my colleagues.

Yes, with Allison Kluger or Halpern. and Burt. Um and I've

or Halpern. and Burt. Um and I've actually done this exercise before, and it is so crazy the different ways that you can perceive yourself without sound, with sound, or both combined. Because if

you're just focusing on the body language, you can see where you're doing really well or what's lacking, and you can focus on the visual aspect.

Yeah, our voice distracts us. And

similarly, our movements distract us from hearing what our voice is doing.

So, taking the time to do that. And

again, for my students, it's it's 9 minutes out of their their day, but it's it's a very valuable 9 minutes. And when they when you film the students, are they presenting in front of all the other

classmates?

So, for this particular assignment, we we have them up in front of half the class. We baby steps towards larger

class. We baby steps towards larger audiences cuz a larger audience can can be intimidating. So, part of what we're

be intimidating. So, part of what we're trying to do in the whole course is build confidence, and so we start a little small and then graduate as we go.

Yeah, that is so cool. I can't believe you never told me about this. I see the learning goes one way.

[laughter] What is this? Actually, see if you can get a copy of that video, and then then you've got some leverage. There you go.

Beginning of the class, end of the class. You can see also how much I

class. You can see also how much I improved. Well, absolutely. So, my

improved. Well, absolutely. So, my

students they redo that first presentation as their last presentation, but the idea is is that they apply everything they've learned over the course, so they can see the difference because it's very empowering, I think,

when you leave a class feeling like, "I've actually made a lot of progress."

Not to say that there isn't more progress to be made. I think all of us can continue to to evolve our communication, but it's a very powerful reminder that in just a an academic quarter, how much I've improved.

Yeah. I mean, if you're listening or watching this conversation right now, I urge you to take 30 minutes from your Saturday or your Sunday to do this exercise. I know it sounds like, "Oh,

exercise. I know it sounds like, "Oh, that sounds good in practice," but like actually do this exercise because the learnings from it cuz how else will you know how you come across? You know, like you don't really get that feedback in real time. You're talking to people, no

real time. You're talking to people, no one's going to tell you that you're like very closed off, but if you can actually do this exercise yourself and self-analyze, or with a trusted friend you can share it with and get feedback

from them, I think this makes a world of a difference. Absolutely, and that

a difference. Absolutely, and that feedback part is so important. We we

even though we're seeing it ourselves, we're not perceiving it as somebody else might. So, getting feedback from a

might. So, getting feedback from a trusted other makes a lot of sense. I'm

sure there's a lot of feedback going on between the two of you, and that's helpful, right? Yeah, yeah. There's a

helpful, right? Yeah, yeah. There's a

lot of sit up straight.

[laughter] Remind each other to sit up straight.

It's a lifelong battle.

One of the great easiest ways to to do that is just pull your shoulder blades down. When you pull the shoulder blades

down. When you pull the shoulder blades down, it forces you to sit up straight.

We're asking the right person. But

seriously, what is the idea behind having the story ready? Like why why?

So, leaders are often in a situation So, it's premised on the fact that story really can help move, motivate, and inspire. And as leaders, we should have

inspire. And as leaders, we should have stockpiled some stories that we can pull in at any point. So, I have a story that I love to use all the time. The biggest

fight my wife and I have ever had is over toothpaste.

And it usually gets that reaction, like that's ridiculous. And then I then I'll

that's ridiculous. And then I then I'll tell you the truth And this is a true story. My wife's a roller and I'm a

story. My wife's a roller and I'm a squeezer. And there's nothing worse to a

squeezer. And there's nothing worse to a roller than a squeezer cuz we ruin that work. But this story, one, it builds

work. But this story, one, it builds curiosity. You're like, "What? This is

curiosity. You're like, "What? This is

crazy." But I can use that story to then talk about lots of different things. I

can talk about respect. I can talk about listening. I can talk about knowing your

listening. I can talk about knowing your audience. So, having these stories as

audience. So, having these stories as starters that you're comfortable with allows you to feel better in these in the moments where I have to inspire, motivate, persuade. So, we're we're

motivate, persuade. So, we're we're teaching our students to to start cataloging and stockpiling early on.

That is so smart. That is so strategic.

But, I think a lot of people with social anxiety can benefit from already having some of these anecdotes pre-planned.

100% and think about a job interview. If

you if you go into a job interview and you think about, "Hey, here's some here's some data I might need to share or could share. Here's a good story or two or or here's a testimonial from a previous boss or a tribute I got."

Having those at the ready help. You

know, I the thing that I teach that is often most counterintuitive is you can prepare to be spontaneous. And that

sounds strange. It sounds like it's disingenuous. But, think of an athlete.

disingenuous. But, think of an athlete.

An athlete does a tremendous amount of drills so that when they're in the moment, they they can respond spontaneously. We can do the same thing.

spontaneously. We can do the same thing.

We can It's just like an athlete goes to the gym and and works out, we can stockpile our stories. We can do practice drills with AI. There's all

these things we can do to help us get ready. So, when we're in the moment, we

ready. So, when we're in the moment, we can respond appropriately and be really present so we're not in our head saying, "Oh my goodness, what am I going to say?" I just pull that in and then I can

say?" I just pull that in and then I can have that really present connection.

I love that metaphor. Yeah. Being a

communication athlete.

Oh, there we go. Yeah, that's right.

Well, Jean and I we say a lot, "Prepare to win." Yeah. So, if you're going to,

to win." Yeah. So, if you're going to, you know, have those tough conversations or be put on the spot and you need to be spontaneous, you have to do the prep work and the introspection ahead of time. Yeah. But, I am shocked that in

time. Yeah. But, I am shocked that in my, you know, 37 years of living and working, no one has ever taught me to prepare these stories. A lot of us don't

get education on very practical tactical communication skills. And and just as

communication skills. And and just as you are focused on educating 1 billion people, I am focused on bringing practical tactical tools to people because this is where life happens. It

happens in the communication and there are things we can do to prepare ourselves. And stockpiling stories,

ourselves. And stockpiling stories, digitally recording yourself, getting feedback from others, these are all very strategic and tactical tools that we can use to get better. Yeah. I guess they don't teach it at Harvard Business

School. I saw that one coming. I have

School. I saw that one coming. I have

some amazing colleagues at Harvard who teach great communication classes.

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pretty simple. What is it? Distribution

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Okay, I'm going off script a little bit here, but can you tell us, Matt, what are these five stories that you teach your students that everyone should have ready? So, these five stories come from

ready? So, these five stories come from an excellent book called The Pin Drop Principle. The idea being that when you

Principle. The idea being that when you tell them, you could hear a pin drop.

And the five are, I just so happen to have my Tiger Sister card here, uh the value story, something that talks about a value you have and why it's important to you. Pie in the face, where you've

to you. Pie in the face, where you've made a mistake but learned something from it. Origin story, something that's

from it. Origin story, something that's really fundamental to who you are and how that that developed over time. The

crucible story, where you were really tested and you need to respond and show how you you've changed. And then

finally, the solution story, where you've you've solved a problem or captured an opportunity. And being able to tell each of those stories allows you in situations where you might

be put on the spot or you need to connect and draw people in to to know with confidence that I can tell those stories. It's not to be memorized and

stories. It's not to be memorized and just insert here, but it's to give you a place of comfort to go to when you need it. So, many people understand that

it. So, many people understand that communication is really important, but the one thing that I think everyone stresses out about is small talk. So,

can you give us some insight into why small talk is important and what are the best ways to go about it because it can feel so uncomfortable? Yeah, it's so funny when you bring up small talk. So,

in my most recent book, Think Faster, Talk Smarter, in the back of the book, I have six specific situations where people apply spontaneous speaking. And

the very last one I threw in almost as a whim was small talk. And it turns out to be the one everybody's curious about.

So, who knew? But, small talk is really challenging for many people and part of it is the way we frame it. Many of us see it as a necessary evil. As a way to be punished for having to be around

people in an elevator or in a social event. In fact, big things happen in

event. In fact, big things happen in small talk. I think we have to rebrand

small talk. I think we have to rebrand it.

I I challenge everybody listening and and watching. Think about your

and watching. Think about your friendship group. The real friends that

friendship group. The real friends that you hang out with. My hunch is at least one of those people you met through some kind of small talk.

We connect. We learn to collaborate. We

we initiate deeper communication through small talk.

Now, we need to get better at it. And

the biggest challenge that people report to me are, "How do I start it? And how

do I get out of it?"

But, before we do that, approach matters a lot. Uh on my show, Think Fast, Talk

a lot. Uh on my show, Think Fast, Talk Smart, I interviewed Rachel Greenwald and Rachel is a fascinating person. She

is a professional matchmaker and an academic. Go figure that out. And she

academic. Go figure that out. And she

taught me many things. Uh one of the things she taught me is the way you approach it. Many of us approach small

approach it. Many of us approach small talk thinking we have to be interesting.

It's all about being interesting.

I think and what she shared with me is it's about being interested.

So, the goal is to be interested in the other person. Lead with curiosity and

other person. Lead with curiosity and inquiry. The The analogy I use is you

inquiry. The The analogy I use is you know tennis, the whole goal is to ace the ball over the net and many of us feel like that's how we need to do small talk. I got to say something that's

talk. I got to say something that's brilliant and get that ace. In fact,

it's more like hacky sack. You know that little bean bag where the whole goal is just to keep the bag up in the air. So,

when you change that approach, it takes pressure off of us.

The single best way I know to start small talk is with inquiry inquiry or observation. So, I can go up to somebody

observation. So, I can go up to somebody and say, "What did you think about that keynote speech we just heard?"

I was at a um an banquet after a big work event and we were in line, it was a buffet. And there's a guy standing next

buffet. And there's a guy standing next to me I didn't know and it's one of those things where we're close enough that you we kind of should talk cuz it's really weird not to talk. And I just used an observation. I looked around the room. It turned out everybody was

room. It turned out everybody was wearing different shades of blue. There

it wasn't like a uniform, it was just coincidence. I turned to my friend and

coincidence. I turned to my friend and said, "I must have missed the memo on the blue outfit." He looked around and said, "Yeah, that is weird." And that started our conversation. That's all we needed. He and I have become very good

needed. He and I have become very good friends. We exchanged LinkedIn

friends. We exchanged LinkedIn information that night. And whenever I travel to where he lives, I visit.

Whenever he comes out from where I live, it was all just based on an observation.

So inquiry questions observation that's how we start. We have the approach, it's about being interested not interesting. And then how do we get

not interesting. And then how do we get out of them?

So, Rachel taught me this. She calls it the white flag. Not for surrender, but in an auto race, they signal the last lap by waving the white flag.

So, in conversation, when I'm done with my small talk or I want to move on, I signal it. I say, "This has been a great

signal it. I say, "This has been a great conversation. In a few minutes, I'm

conversation. In a few minutes, I'm going to go over there and talk. But,

before I leave, I have one more question or I'd like to hear a little bit more."

So, you signal the conversation is going to end soon, but you come back with a little bit more so it's not an abrupt ending. I've prepared you that I'm going

ending. I've prepared you that I'm going to leave soon. You can start thinking about what you're going to do next. And

it's just such a nice way to part. Cuz

the way most of us do it is we rely on biology. I'm hungry. I'm thirsty. I have

biology. I'm hungry. I'm thirsty. I have

to go to the bathroom.

And that can backfire. I I was talking to this guy once and I said, "Oh, thank you. I got to run to the bathroom." He

you. I got to run to the bathroom." He

said, "Oh, me too." And then all of a sudden, we had another 20 minute conversation in a very awkward environment. So, we

environment. So, we once you feel comfortable starting and ending, then it becomes easier. Yeah. I

think I need to practice that. I know. I

was going to just be like, "I want to try it out." So, I'd say, "This has been a great conversation. I

Or I've learned so much from you. Uh or

I've learned so much. I want to go see the I want to go meet that person over there. There's someone over there I want

there. There's someone over there I want to talk to." So, you signal where you're going. Okay.

going. Okay.

And then and then you come back with, "But, I'd really be curious about one more thing." Or you talked about going

more thing." Or you talked about going to Hawaii, which island did you go to?

So, you come back with just one last lap before you leave. Try it. It's been so great getting to know you, Sheree, for the last 30 years of your life. Mhm. Um

I'm going to go over there and talk to Katie, but, you know, I just wanted to know one last thing is uh So, maybe a little more practice, but you got but you but you got the

framework. You got the framework. And

framework. You got the framework. And

And actually, it is easier when you're in the moment and in the environment than to do it in a rehearsed way like you're doing. It's just very natural.

you're doing. It's just very natural.

It's You'll see somebody over there and say, "Hey, I want to go do that." And

And but before I go, nice and easy. Because that's what you were trying to do anyways when you're when you're wanting to exit. You're

like, "Oh, there is someone over there that I should probably say hello to."

But then like instead of saying, "Oh, I'm going to go grab a drink or something and then do, you know, a lap around." You're actually being like,

around." You're actually being like, "Oh, there is You're like saying what you're thinking out loud.

And there's a whole there's a whole bunch of evidence that that's fairly recent that came out that that people feel that conversations go on too long.

And when you ask them why, it's because I don't know how to get out of it.

Yes. Right? And so, conversations have a natural ebb and flow, and when it's time to be done, just signal and then leave and then and and it makes it easier for everybody. Instead of asking one last

everybody. Instead of asking one last question, could you be like, let's exchange information?

Perfect. You there's there's some culminating activity, so it's not a cold stop. That's the awkwardness. We've all

stop. That's the awkwardness. We've all

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So, Matt, I recently made um an Instagram reel where I talked about this concept of metacognition where just personal personal anecdote, like I have feelings, but then I also have

feelings about my feelings. So, I'm not just, you know, upset. I feel

embarrassed that I'm upset. So, that's a separate issue, but I'm definitely very much like in my head and kind of like monitoring and self-monitoring. And so,

in your book you write that we judge ourselves, and the more we judge ourselves, the more difficult it is to connect with the other person. And I

know a lot of people self-monitor, but probably at different levels. How does

overthinking how you're coming across actually hurt or honestly kill the connection? So, I want to start by

connection? So, I want to start by saying I am not for not judging and evaluating what we say. We we need to do that. Okay. Cuz bad things happen when

that. Okay. Cuz bad things happen when we don't do that.

have no filter.

Right. But many of us run around with that volume turned up to 11, and that gets in the way of our communication.

Let me share a quick story. Uh in

about 10 years ago, the deans of the business school at Stanford came to me and said, "We have a problem. Our

incredibly bright students are struggling to do cold calling." I'm sure you both remember cold calling. That's

where the professor looks at you and says, "What do you think?" and you have to respond. And our students knew the

to respond. And our students knew the answer. It was just hard because they

answer. It was just hard because they were put on the spot. So, they asked me, "Is there something you can do to help?"

So, I put together a course, which eventually became the the book the Think Faster, Talk Smarter methodology was based on this.

And as a way to help students feel comfortable in these moments, we rely on improvisation.

So, we play an improv game, and the game is called shout the wrong name.

And I it's very simple. For 15 seconds, you just point at different things in the room, and you call it anything but what it is. It's actually harder than it sounds. So, if I point to the ceiling, I

sounds. So, if I point to the ceiling, I don't say ceiling, I call it yellow dove, car, just not ceiling.

And we're playing this game, and I have a student who's pointing at a chair, and nothing's coming out of his mouth.

And I go up to him, I said, "What's going on?" He said, "I'm not being wrong

going on?" He said, "I'm not being wrong enough."

enough." Now, I give no rubric around rightness or wrongness.

funny. And I said, "Tell me more." He

said, "Well, I was going to call the chair a cat, but a cat has four legs and a chair has four legs. I'm not being wrong enough. Sometimes a cat sits on a

wrong enough. Sometimes a cat sits on a chair. I'm not being wrong enough." Now,

chair. I'm not being wrong enough." Now,

we all do this. Now, he's several standard deviations out from what most of us do, but we're judging and in our heads. And you can imagine how that

heads. And you can imagine how that evaluation gets in the way of us actually, in his case, saying anything. Mhm. Your brain

is like a computer. It's not a perfect analogy, but a computer CPU has only limited bandwidth. If I have lots of

limited bandwidth. If I have lots of windows and apps open, each one of those windows and apps is sucking some of that CPU bandwidth.

When I'm judging and evaluating to that extreme, I'm really taxing my cognitive bandwidth. And that means I can't

bandwidth. And that means I can't connect, adapt, and adjust. This is why, I want to bust a myth here, memorizing is so bad. People think, "Oh, I'll memorize, and then I can really

connect." What's happening when you

connect." What's happening when you memorize is you've created the right way to say it, and as I'm saying it, I'm constantly comparing what I'm saying to what I wanted to say. I have

limited bandwidth. So, I tell my students it's about connection, not perfection. Mhm. It's about being

perfection. Mhm. It's about being present and being there. Maybe it won't come out exactly the way I want it, but at least I'm in that moment with you versus being in my head. So, we do a lot

of this judgment. Metacognition,

meta-awareness is really important. But

if we take it to an extreme, it actually can reduce our opportunity to really connect. On the first day of my

connect. On the first day of my strategic communication class, I ask my students, I say, "The goal of this course is to maximize your mediocrity."

And you can both appreciate how two MBA how MBA students might respond to hearing that. They've never been told to

hearing that. They've never been told to be mediocre. But now that you understand

be mediocre. But now that you understand this cognitive bandwidth thing, you understand the what I'm saying is when you focus on just doing it instead of doing it perfectly, you end up doing it better. Yeah. And I think a lot of

better. Yeah. And I think a lot of people listening to this will relate to that because we are go-getters, we're perfectionists, we're type A's, we Strivers. Strivers, and we want to, you

Strivers. Strivers, and we want to, you know, be right or feel right or sound right. But honestly, like the people

right. But honestly, like the people that we're talking to, whether it's um at a dinner party or if you're giving a presentation, people are generally very forgiving Absolutely.

of mistakes that you make, and they're like rooting for you to do a good job.

And so, in our heads, like we are our own worst enemies. Like we want to be right. But also, the person that we're

right. But also, the person that we're talking to doesn't know what we're supposed to say. That's exactly right.

Yeah, they they only know what they hear. There there is a and I can't

hear. There there is a and I can't remember where I saw this cartoon, but it's it's the speaker's view of how they're envisioning their audience and the audience's view of how they're envisioning the speaker. So, in the the

the communicator's view, the thought bubble is almost like what you would see in American Idol. That's a bunch of judges holding cards grading them.

That's how they're seeing it. And then

the audience, on the other hand, they're just sitting like open-armed waiting to get this useful information. We we think people are judging and evaluating us, and they're not. They're there to get

value from us. Now, yes, people do make assumptions and they do judge, but by and large, people want you to succeed.

It's incredibly [snorts] awkward to be in a conversation where the person talking to is awkward, nervous, uncomfortable. We don't like that. So,

uncomfortable. We don't like that. So,

we want people to succeed. So, if we can dial down that pressure on ourselves, it really helps. And by the way, there is

really helps. And by the way, there is no right way to communicate. There are

better ways and worse ways, but there's no one right way. If there were, we'd all be communicating perfectly, and that's not the way it works.

Mhm.

Can we go back to your uh improv activity for a second?

Did you want to try it? I'd love to. We

can. I was just wondering, what is the goal of it? The goal of the activity is to show people So, it does several things. So, the goal of shout the wrong

things. So, the goal of shout the wrong name, at least the way I use it, and I learned this from one of my colleagues, Adam Tobin. He and I co-teach a class

Adam Tobin. He and I co-teach a class where he brings improv and I bring communication skills.

We use it to do several things. One, we

use it to bring forward how much we judge our communication.

And then the second thing is what happens almost immediately with most people is they they fall into routine and pattern.

So, if you've got 15 seconds to point as fast as you can, you start doing things like certain categories. I'm going to just do colors or animals or I do what I call X plus one where where I'm I'm

going to look at the camera and call it the light, and then I look at the light and call it the camera. So, I'm just whatever I next saw. And so, we we we say, "Time out. Look what your brain is doing in that moment. It's helping you

solve a problem." But when I fall into one of those categories, for example, what am I missing? So, if you and I are having a conversation, and you ask me for what I think is feedback, so you ask

a question, "Hey, oh, she wants feedback."

feedback." And I immediately start giving feedback and lock into that, what did I miss?

I'll give you a an example here. I came out of a meeting with a colleague and and my colleague said, "How do you think that went?" And

the meeting had gone very poorly. So, I

heard feedback, and I started itemizing all the things we did wrong and all the things we could have done better. But

had I really listened and observed in that moment and not immediately jumped into that heuristic of feedback, I would have noticed he was looking down. He

came out the back door. His tone and affect were low. He didn't want feedback, he wanted support. And my

itemizing all the things he did wrong, I damaged that relationship. Took me 6 weeks to fix it. So, part of what this activity does is it highlights what academics call heuristics, mental shortcuts we use. And we need mental

shortcuts. You could not get through the

shortcuts. You could not get through the grocery store if you did not have mental shortcuts cuz you see all these choices, how do you choose what you choose? But

sometimes those shortcuts actually get in the way of us being present and connecting. So, this activity

connecting. So, this activity highlights a lot of these different things.

And it's a fun way to do it versus listening to me lecture about heuristics, believe me.

It gets the students involved, and I kind of like Have you done it? Uh I did a version of this because I took uh a theater class.

Yeah. Um at the Stanford like theater department, uh my professor was a professional clown. Is a professional

professional clown. Is a professional clown. He's fabulous. Yes. Um but we did

clown. He's fabulous. Yes. Um but we did a version of this, and I think it's great because it takes business school students and people who like think, you know, we're on our high horse, and we're like, "We're at Stanford Business

School." And they're like, "Oh, crap. We

School." And they're like, "Oh, crap. We

can't even do this silly game, and we're like in our heads."

It's humbling for all of It's so humbling, and I think we need that humbling.

Well, I I definitely think it opens people up. Right? When you see something

people up. Right? When you see something as simple, you go, "I can't do that."

And all of a sudden now, I I there's a problem I can solve. Mhm. We're going to an improv class this week. Oh, great

Saturday. My first ever.

Oh, and you've done improv before.

Yes. So, the the mistake people make about improv is they think it's about being funny. And it's not. It's about

being funny. And it's not. It's about

being present. Well, I'm naturally funny. Well, I know. So, you're you're

funny. Well, I know. So, you're you're going to ace it. [laughter] That's

right. Because improv is a competition.

No, error. Um

error. Um No, it's about being present, it's about being supportive, and it's about really listening. So, these are all very useful

listening. So, these are all very useful skills. Mhm. Mhm.

skills. Mhm. Mhm.

I'm excited. We'll report back. Yes,

we'll let you know how it goes.

Guys, something funny has been happening lately, which is that we've been seeing you guys saying more and more that watching Tiger Sisters is like getting a free MBA. And we don't disagree. Jean

free MBA. And we don't disagree. Jean

went to Harvard Business School, I went to Stanford's Business School, and every week you get everything we learned distilled into a conversational format.

All the frameworks, all the lessons, and all the incredible conversations that we took away. So, you guys are basically

took away. So, you guys are basically getting a free MBA while you're driving to work or while you're folding your laundry. Exactly. So, subscribe now

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And big news, we are dropping a newsletter very soon. So, make sure you sign up at the link in our description to get even more incredible content. And

now back to the show.

Okay, so Matt, transitioning to something very tactical. So, one thing that we hear all the time is that speaking on the spot is so, so hard. And

I know you teach a framework, and it's called like a 3-2-1 framework where you organize your thoughts and you can speak on the spot. So, can you tell us a little bit about this and how we can use it right now? If you think about it,

most of our communication is spontaneous. Yeah. It's not the

spontaneous. Yeah. It's not the presentations, pitches, and meetings with agendas. Those are all planned.

with agendas. Those are all planned.

Somebody asks you a question, you're asked for feedback, you make a mistake, you have to fix it, you have to make small talk, you have to apologize in the moment. These are all how we

moment. These are all how we communicate. You know, we rarely learn

communicate. You know, we rarely learn how to do this.

One of the keys that gets you through this is to have a structure. A structure

is nothing more than a framework, a guidepost, a GPS to help you get through it. There are lots of structures. You

it. There are lots of structures. You

all You all know structures. If you've

ever watched a television ad, you've seen a structure. Problem, solution,

benefit. Most TV ads are there some issue challenge in the world, the product or service fixes it, and you benefit in some way. That's a structure.

It's a roadmap. My favorite structure is three simple questions. What, so what, now what? What is the information you're

now what? What is the information you're talking about? So, what is why it's

talking about? So, what is why it's important. Now what is what comes next.

important. Now what is what comes next.

Let me give you an example. Imagine

you're in a meeting, your boss turns you and says, "Can you give me an update on that project?"

project?" You don't have a slide deck, you didn't know you were going to be asked, what are you going to do? What's the update?

So, what's why it's important to the goals, KPIs you have, and now what's what comes next. I just [snorts] got really nervous.

[laughter] Oh, because I said, "Give me an update?"

Yeah, and I looked at you. I'm sorry.

My next example, I'll look at Jean, so you don't have to be nervous. I'll have

an update ready.

Okay, very yeah, of course.

With all the spreadsheets.

what, so what, and now what?

There you go. But, imagine feedback. So,

this time somebody actually really wants your feedback.

I could say, "I thought this meeting went really well, except when you talked about the implementation plan, you spoke quickly and didn't give a lot of detail." That's

the what.

When you speak quickly without a lot of detail, people might think you're nervous or unprepared. That's the so what. Next time, slow down when you

what. Next time, slow down when you cover this material and add this additional information. That's the now

additional information. That's the now what. All of the sudden, when I'm put on

what. All of the sudden, when I'm put on that spot, I know how I'm going to answer. I'm going to use what, so what,

answer. I'm going to use what, so what, now what. I just have to think about

now what. I just have to think about what to put in. I'm going to use another analogy to describe this. It's like a recipe. I'm a lousy cook. I am a better

recipe. I'm a lousy cook. I am a better cook when I have a recipe. This is the recipe, and you can use this one in particular, what, so what, now what, in many, many situations. I call it the

Swiss Army knife of communication structures.

And you can practice it.

When people are done listening to the Tiger Sisters, watching the Tiger Sisters, I want everybody at the end to say, "What's one thing I learned?

Why is it important to me, and how can I use that information?" By practicing that, you're actually laying down neural pathways, so it becomes easier to do when you listen or speak. And now all of the sudden you have this tool in your toolkit, and when somebody puts you on

the spot, you know how to respond.

Yeah, I love it. He gave a mini exercise. A mini exercise. He's a real

exercise. A mini exercise. He's a real professor.

[laughter] It's part of my job. Homework and

exercises and readings, that's what we do. Well, Matt, you mentioned in one of

do. Well, Matt, you mentioned in one of your examples of how to use this framework, um, is in apologies. And I remember there was a lecture that we had in

strategic communications about apologies and the right way to do apologies, and I think the the context of that was maybe more in the corporate setting, like, what are ways that a crisis management crisis management and our company should apologize, but I I'd like to take us to

the personal setting. Is there a right or wrong way to, or I guess, a better way to communicate an apology, and I'm wondering if the what, so what, now what

framework can apply. I I absolutely think it can.

I don't think there's one right way to apologize, but there are many ways, wrong ways, to apologize. So, and my wife has been she's she's received lots of bad apologies over the years. Uh,

so, a couple characteristics. So, yes, I think what, so what, now what is a is a very nice structure to package up an apology. I actually have a whole chapter

apology. I actually have a whole chapter in in Think Faster, Talk Smarter about apologies. The big

apologies. The big nuggets I'd like people to take away are when you apologize, it's important to apologize for what you have done, not how you made the person

feel. So,

feel. So, "I'm sorry I made you upset" is not an apology.

No, it's not.

It sounds like we have some experience there.

[laughter] What's I might say, "I'm sorry I interrupted you." That's the action that

interrupted you." That's the action that I did that that caused the upset. So,

it's acknowledging the behavior.

And it's very important to explain the remedy, so people understand that I as the offender understand and am demonstrating how I change it. So, if

the the the fault is I interrupted you, I might say, "I'm sorry I interrupted you. That was disrespectful.

you. That was disrespectful.

In our next group meeting, I'll make sure to paraphrase what you say before I add my contribution."

So, I am being very clear on what I will do to change. Now, you can come back and say that's not sufficient or that's overkill, whatever, but now we can talk about the remedy and how that remedy will help me in the future and help you

in the future. So, using the structure what, so what, now what is a great way of packaging it up, but a good apology recognizes the offending behavior or attitude and the specifics of what

you'll do to change.

It's so simple, but it's so good.

Yeah, you know, in many spontaneous speaking situations, like an apology, emotion is playing out, and that's what makes it hard, right? Like, you're upset with me, I'm feeling bad, or maybe I'm feeling indignant. I I didn't interrupt

feeling indignant. I I didn't interrupt it, right? So, there's a lot of emotion

it, right? So, there's a lot of emotion that we have to wade through, and that's why having a structure and some tenets or guideposts through how how to get through it, that's what makes it easier.

Mhm.

And apologies are free.

They are free. That's right. And and

they can actually apologies can deepen relationships. You

know, many of us feel like it's it's atonement for something we've done wrong, which it is, but a good apology can build trust and foster relationships. So, it has a strategic

relationships. So, it has a strategic progression that can come from an apology well done and well received. Hm,

that's an interesting way to look at it.

It has a strategic progression.

Yeah. A lot of small talk is all about getting to the next level, right? Small

talk is the entryway into deeper talk.

Apologies are a way of connecting more.

Answering questions are a way of demonstrating similarity and collaboration. These all have meta

collaboration. These all have meta strategic goals on the other end of them. And is the strategic goal that

them. And is the strategic goal that once you guys know each other better and you develop trust, you can together do better, bigger, more important things.

Absolutely, that's exactly right.

Communication is a is a The word communication means to make common. And as we make things more

common. And as we make things more common through connection, through collaboration, we build trust, and and that allows us to feel more comfortable to advance

more ideas. So, it it's all a

more ideas. So, it it's all a progression.

Yeah, I think apologies are so underrated. Like the one that Jean's

underrated. Like the one that Jean's about to give me. I'm just kidding.

[laughter] I think it's a it's a really important part of building trust, especially in business and in and in personal relationships, too, because it

the person who is doing the apologizing has to introspect and understand how their actions affected the other person and communicate that.

Um, and the other person like needs to be open to hearing it as well. So, a lot of business relationships, I think, are deepened because of a simple apology.

Absolutely. And if you are running a business, you want people to be trying new things and and testing new things out, and when that happens, things break

and and issues come up, and the ability to apologize is really important, and that's a good it's a good sign that you're actually being creative, challenging growing.

But, friction comes from that, and apologies are a way to reset and move forward.

Yes, and people aren't we're not taught how to do this.

No, we're not.

No, not at all. And and I think it's important incumbent on all leaders to to when they make mistakes to apologize and to reward others who apologize well.

I'm really glad we talked about this topic because, you know, a lot of times you say on Tiger Sisters you talk about money, power, and love, and apologies is something that, you know, runs the gamut across all those. It certainly does. It

connects Yeah, and can connect them together. Okay, Matt, so now we've

together. Okay, Matt, so now we've talked a lot about how to talk to anyone.

The other category I want to get into is what about applying this to networking?

Right, cuz networking is kind of this like almost like boogeyman that people are always talking about. People are

like, "You have to network. You have to network." But, how do you network? And

network." But, how do you network? And

what is the difference between everything we talked about before and networking?

They're definitely related.

When networking, we need to be a little strategic. So, a few things I would

strategic. So, a few things I would suggest. One, have a clear goal what

suggest. One, have a clear goal what you're trying to achieve. And to me, a goal has three parts: information, emotion and What's the information I want to get across, and what's the information I want to get out from people? Be be

specific on that. How do I want people to feel as a part of the interaction they have with me? Do I want them excited curious motivated?

And what is the emotional tone I want of my messages? Is it one of urgency, or is

my messages? Is it one of urgency, or is it one of collaboration?

And then is there something specific I want? Is it I want a LinkedIn

want? Is it I want a LinkedIn connection? Is I want Do I want somebody

connection? Is I want Do I want somebody to be willing to be a reference for me?

Be very specific.

That helps you focus. A lot of people go into networking situations and they're unfocused and did it work? Did it not work? I don't

know. Having a goal helps you focus and assess your success.

Second, it's about reconnaissance, reflection, and research. If I'm going into a networking situation, I should think about who am I meeting with? What

is their background? What are some of the issues, challenges, questions that they could help me with? So, looking

them up on LinkedIn, talking to others who know them, reading what they've written, listening to podcasts they've been on, whatever. Do the

reconnaissance, reflection, and research to help you target.

And then, when you go in the moment, keep that in the back of your mind, but be fully present. If If I don't know if you've ever been in the situation where somebody comes out and they have their agenda, it's like boom boom boom boom

boom. That can be very off-putting. If

boom. That can be very off-putting. If

you want me to be a mentor, if you want me to help you, and you come in hot and and have all these things, that's going to that's going to turn me off. So,

have that in the back of your mind, have that be your your fundamental orientation, but then just connect with the person.

And then take stock of it. And after the event, connect with people. Thank them.

Take a moment to express gratitude. It

feels awkward, but it's actually helps you be more memorable, and it helps you stand out. You know, I I can imagine a

stand out. You know, I I can imagine a lot of people come up to you wanting to connect.

You've got to think about who are the ones that stick out most to you? It's the ones who are gracious,

you? It's the ones who are gracious, it's the ones who follow up, it's the ones who've spent time thinking about what you have done and accomplished and connected to what they're asking for.

So, just being strategic about it can really help.

I think a lot of Gen Z people call this biz res. It's like business charisma.

biz res. It's like business charisma.

Yeah. And I think there really is a a science and an art to networking, and you know, in the in part of the small talk and asking the questions, making the person feel heard, but then also

going in having an ask yourself. A lot

of times we're thrown into networking situations, maybe we're not able to do the reconnaissance or the the LinkedIn research ahead of time, but somewhere in the conversation, like what does winning look like for me, and how can I also

help the person who I'm talking to as well? That second part really important.

well? That second part really important.

It's not just me asking you for something. There There's some value to

something. There There's some value to you in the to the other person that we need to really think about. And And that that other focus is important in all communication. The success of

communication. The success of communication is not just getting information out, it's making sure the other person receives it. So, being

other focused, audience-centric, is critical in all communication. So,

Matt, a lot of our communication nowadays, um I guess since COVID or the pandemic has been um not in person. It's

been virtual. So, what are some tips that you have for virtual communication and coming across as authentic and yourself? So, it's harder to connect

yourself? So, it's harder to connect when there's a camera between you and your audience. And there's some things

your audience. And there's some things that we we need to do to to help ourselves. In terms of content, the

ourselves. In terms of content, the content has to be completely relevant and salient to the other person. We pay

attention to what's relevant to us.

Attention is the most precious commodity we have in the world today. And if I don't get your attention and make it relevant to you, that's a problem. And

when there's a screen in between us, and the other person on the other end could be doing their email or checking their Instagram, I really have to make it salient and relevant.

When it comes to our presence, three things I suggest. One, I want people to pull their shoulder blades down and fill half the screen with their bodies. Many

of us sit so far away from the camera, we look like a constellation in the sky.

We like to see people's faces. So,

here's a really simple hack. It's silly,

but before you join Zoom, Team, Meet, Webex, it will always show your image, and then you click join. That's where we make sure there's nothing in our teeth and our hair looks good. Before you

click join, anybody sees you, you put four fingers on your head, and you have four fingers of space between the top of your head and the top of your box. If

you're doing this, you're sitting way too far away. So, it's a great way to measure. So, fill half the screen.

measure. So, fill half the screen.

Second, raise the camera up. Many of us are on laptops and tablets, so the angle is like this. Nobody looks good from that angle.

Raise Get a box, a book, a stand, raise it up. So, when I look, I can look

it up. So, when I look, I can look straight at the camera because looking at the camera signals I'm speaking to you. If I look at your little image if your video's playing, then it actually looks like I'm

looking at your shoes from your perspective. So, look at the camera. And

perspective. So, look at the camera. And

then finally, get good lighting. You as

creators know the value of lighting.

Most people on these virtual calls look like they're in the witness protection program, sitting in the dark. So, if So, I tell my students and I tell the people I coach, I say, "If you don't know how to get good lighting, find a teenager.

They've cracked the code. They know how to do it."

And then the last thing, this is based on research that came out relatively recently. Your background matters a lot.

recently. Your background matters a lot.

We have three choices: reality, an image, or that blurry background. And

what this research shows is that the blurry background, people actually think you're hiding something.

And you probably are, but we we want to avoid that. So, so either put an image

avoid that. So, so either put an image or tidy up a background behind you. We

don't want the environment to get people doubting us just because we've got that blurred out background. So, very simple things you can do to come off as more confident, and if your content is

salient, relevant, to be more connected.

I love that. Wow. I have to try that next time. I have to make sure four

next time. I have to make sure four fingers.

Four fingers makes a big difference.

Yeah. I actually exclusively use the blur background. All right. Yikes. Put

blur background. All right. Yikes. Put

your wonderful Tiger Sisters logo behind you. Totally true.

you. Totally true.

Awesome. Well, thank you, Matt, so much for sitting down with us in this conversation. We learned a lot.

conversation. We learned a lot.

so much. I'm like, "Wow, could we do this every week?"

Yeah. I would be honored to spend more time with all of you. I'm glad you took value. Thank you. Matt, for everyone

value. Thank you. Matt, for everyone listening or watching, where can they find your socials and find out more about your content? Excellent. Thank you

for asking. So, faster smarter.io will take you to all things Think Fast, Talk Smart. You can check out my website

Smart. You can check out my website mattabrahams.com, LinkedIn, Instagram, TikTok. Just search

Think Fast, Talk Smart, you'll find us there. Incredible. Well, thank you for

there. Incredible. Well, thank you for for being with us. Thank you, and thank you for the opportunity. It was fun.