The 144 Rejections of "Chicken Soup for the Soul"

Where did Chicken Soup for the Soul come from? I mean, people have seen Everyone

from? I mean, people have seen Everyone listening has seen this book at some point. Chances are, unless they're 18

point. Chances are, unless they're 18 perhaps and have like never been into a dentist's office or a physician's office or an airport or fill in the blank, right? I mean, it's ubiquitous. How did

right? I mean, it's ubiquitous. How did

it start?

>> I was going around doing workshops for teachers on self-esteem, motivation, that kind of thing. And I was always telling stories just because I noticed when I was a high school teacher, if I

was talking historical facts, kids were looking out the window. If I was telling a story about an escaped slave who became an ambassador or my own story or something from Jet magazine or Ebony

magazine, the kids would pay attention.

So stories capture us and all the great teachers, Buddha, Jesus, we know they told stories and parables and so forth.

So one day somebody said, "That story you told about the Girl Scout who sold 3,328 boxes of Girl Scout cookies in one year. Is that in a book anywhere? My

year. Is that in a book anywhere? My

daughter needs to hear that story." I

went, "No." And over a course of a two months, I must have had four people a day say, "That story in a book, that story in a book, that story in a book."

So I'm coming home on a plane from Boston to LA where I was living at the time. And I I said, "How many stories do

time. And I I said, "How many stories do I really know?" Oh, so I wrote down every story, the dog story, the Girl Scout story, the puppy story, the man story, whatever. There was 70 stories.

story, whatever. There was 70 stories.

So I said, "Okay, that's a book." So I made an commitment that every night I would write, work on a story and at the end of the week I would have two stories. And if I did that for a year,

stories. And if I did that for a year, I'd have 101 stories, you know, 108 whatever. So I did that and when I was

whatever. So I did that and when I was about I don't know five six through I had breakfast with Mark Victor Hansen who became my co-author and we were

having breakfast in Beverly Hills at this place all these human potential leaders would come to this breakfast the inside edge it was called and so Mark said what are you working on I said I'm

writing this book and he said you should let me finish it with you I went that's like telling Stephen King you should be co-author because he's five, six of the way through the book. How do you justify

that? He says, "Well, some of the

that? He says, "Well, some of the stories you tell you stole from me."

I said, "Maybe three, Mark. Come on."

And he said, "But I'm a much better salesperson than you. I'll be the upfront voice person." I said, "Well, give me 30 more stories and we'll talk."

I had 70 at that time. So, he said he said, "Okay." Came back, he did it. So

said, "Okay." Came back, he did it. So

basically it was a marriage made in heaven cuz he really was good at getting the word out. We were in a mall once if you believe this Tim. We're in a mall where these I think it was B. Dalton

bookstores. They were in a lot of the malls.

>> Yeah, I remembered B. Dalton.

>> Yeah. And so we're doing a book signing and there's nobody there. So Mark goes out into the mall and he just starts walking up and down the mall yelling, "Are you guys crazy? There's a book signing in Bon right now with these two

amazing authors about the best book in the world. you all should be in there.

the world. you all should be in there.

And so he's doing that and about 40 people came in to be Dalton and then Mark walks up to the front of the room where I am ready to do the little talk before the signing. They all like gasped, you know, like you're the guy

who was in the hall. You could do that.

I was too shy to do that. So

it worked out really well. But you know, you talked about rejection. We were

turned down by 144 publishers once we had a manuscript and took us over a year to sell the book. You know, when I think about that story and I think about, you know, the 4-hour work week, which was

also turned down, Steve and I got front row seats obviously to this by 37, 39 publishers, something like that.

Imprints within the publishers maybe, tell me if this resonates or not, but the reason like you can have a bad idea that gets rejected, right? Just because

something gets rejected a lot doesn't mean it's a good idea, >> right?

>> But in this case, I had tested everything in the classes. So, I knew what worked. I knew that the material

what worked. I knew that the material stuck so to speak and you had been testing these stories also in front of audiences and people had been asking you where can I read this in a book.

>> Yeah.

>> But was there anything else that contributed to the perseverance to go through that many rejections?

>> I think it's what you just said for us too cuz we had tested these stories over and over and told them. We got standing ovations. Many of the stories in there

ovations. Many of the stories in there the first book were what often are called in the speaking business your signature story.

>> Mhm. that other people had let us use with their signature stories. So, we

knew they were tearjerkers. They were

inspirational. They made you laugh. They

made you feel like you want to call up and tell your mother, "I gotta read you this story." So, basically, we knew

this story." So, basically, we knew that, like you said, you knew that from your experience. What I find in the book

your experience. What I find in the book world, especially in the New York publishing world, is everybody wants something that's a copy of something that already worked.

>> Sure.

when you come along with something radically new like your idea was and our idea was up until then no collections of short stories had ever worked because they were all fictional and they were

too short to like get engaged with the characters and really like go you know get involved. Whereas all these stories

get involved. Whereas all these stories were in categories like on love, on overcoming obstacles, you know, grief and so forth that are the human things that everybody lives with, which this is

why they're so touched by it. And we

just knew to stick with it, you know, and we would have self-published eventually, and I would have made a lot more money, but I didn't really want to be a publisher. I wanted to be a speaker and a writer.

>> I'm going to read something here. You

can tell me if if this needs some factchecking, but this is from Thrive Global. This is a Q&A with you. So, here

Global. This is a Q&A with you. So, here

we go. It's just a paragraph. Eventually

went to ABA, the American Book Sellers Association, and went booth to booth for two or three days. And on the final day, this one new publisher employee said, "We'll read the manuscript." Some people wouldn't even take it. And they read it

in this case and loved it. And they said they'd publish it. We said, "How many books do you think you'll sell?" And

this is their response. Oh, 20,000 if you're lucky. And then your response, I

you're lucky. And then your response, I think this is you. Well, we want to sell a million and a half in a year and a half. I said, this employee laughed. And

half. I said, this employee laughed. And

then a year and a half later, we'd sold 1.3 million copies. To sell 1.3 or 1.5 million copies is so hard. I mean, it is

so hard to do unless you happen to be very, very lucky somehow in capturing lightning in a bottle. But usually

there's a lot of elbow grease behind it.

So two things. Well actually it's guess it's just really one thing. What went

into selling that many copies over a year and a half? And were you still using affirmations? Was that still one of the ingredients in the cocktail?

>> Yeah. And then we were doing the mindset work. I always say it's mindset, skill

work. I always say it's mindset, skill set, and ready set go. The set go one another set. Uh it's take action. It's

another set. Uh it's take action. It's

action. So someone had told us that the book The Road Less Traveled, the author of that book had done five interviews a day for the first year, five interviews

a day. Scott Peek and that book was on

a day. Scott Peek and that book was on the New York Times list for 12 years. 5

12 weeks.

>> Yeah, I think it's a record. I mean, you you were really close, I think. Maybe

you still are. I don't know. But the

reality was I thought, well, if that's what works, let's do it. So Mark and I actually had gone to five best-selling authors and then read about Scott Peek and we talked to John Gray who wrote

Menor from Mars. We talked to Ken Blanchard who wrote the one minute manager. We talked to Barbara D'Angelus

manager. We talked to Barbara D'Angelus who wrote a book on love and then another book on PM that someone had written that was successful and we said what should we do? And they all said do as many interviews as possible. Get in

front of everybody. I know you did the the blogger thing which was brilliant.

We did the radio thing. Now, it's I think podcasts are better than radio. I

always tell new authors because the people listening to them, >> they're your audience. There's a focus whereas radio, they have a bigger reach, but not everybody's your audience.

>> But anyway, five a day, every day for a year. So, we we created what we call the

year. So, we we created what we call the rule of five. It's a book by John Kramer called How to Sell a Million Book, something like that.

>> It's a great book. We bought the book and we took every idea that was in that book and we made a post-it little 2 by3 post-it put it on the wall and if you went down the wall of our company at

that time self-esteem seminars it was just covered with postits and every day we'd take something off and either do it five times or take five postit off and do each one time call a church can we talk in your church can we we call five

PXs in the military and we say are you carrying our book can I send you one if you like it will you carry it call books source are you stocking it can we send you one if you like it will you carry it? Call them back 2 weeks later. Did

it? Call them back 2 weeks later. Did

you get it? It was like nonstop. We were

giving talks at churches on on, you know, Sunday morning, Wednesday night, you know, whatever. They ones that have bookstores. We do signings. We signed in

bookstores. We do signings. We signed in the parking lot. I spoke at every damn conference there was. I didn't care where it was or how long it took to get there if there was there. And we did

radio shows that were like at 2 in the morning. Maybe a trucker driving through

morning. Maybe a trucker driving through Montana will hear it. But maybe he'll like it. Maybe he'll buy it. Maybe he'll

like it. Maybe he'll buy it. Maybe he'll

tell his daughter. and a daughter will tell her friends. And so literally it was that level of nonstop activity and it was interesting because we we were

pretty amped up in the beginning and we talked to the psychic guy and he said it would be as he was in trance. He go it would be as if you would go into a tree

with a very sharp axe and you would take five swipes at that tree every single day. eventually even a redwood would

day. eventually even a redwood would have to come down. You know, we went, "Okay, rule of five. That's what we're going to do."

>> What prompted the trip to the psychic?

Do you remember?

>> Yeah, I do. We knew his wife.

>> Mhm.

>> And she was a friend of ours and then he kind of turned psychic, if you will. He

was doing these readings and they were they were awesome. So, we just thought, well, why not? Let's ask him what we should do.

>> How old were you or what date was this?

either one. Roughly when the first Chicken Soup for the Soul came out >> 93 was born at 44. So what is that 49 years old? Something like that.

years old? Something like that.

>> And when it hit right when you sold the 1.3 million copies in a year and a half or whatever it added up to be. How did

that change your life?

>> Dramatically.

>> In what ways did that affect your life?

>> Well, it allowed me to move out of a very small house. It allowed me to get a better car, all that kind of stuff. I

think more so it was an affirmation from the world that the work I was passionate about was needed. And so it wasn't just the money. It was the the the

the money. It was the the the confirmation that my intuition, that my passion was correct. You know, you're probably familiar with the concept of icky guy, which comes from the Japanese

>> where if you love to do something, it's one thing. Are you good at it? Does the

one thing. Are you good at it? Does the

world need it? And are they willing to pay for it? So all four of those have to come together for this thing that you're passionate about to actually work. In

this case, it did. So I thought, okay, my purpose is needed. It's going to work. I can make a living at it. So that

work. I can make a living at it. So that

was a big confirmation of that, I think, more than anything. And yeah, I bought three sweaters, you know, in different colors and all that kind of stuff. I

went through my neuvo reef stage for sure.