The 20-year-old making $100k/month with No Code

my company makes between 100 to 150,000 a month I would say give or take a month yeah and how old are you 20 20

yeah okay what do you do I run a no code product agency so designing developing apps using no code basically and so you're only 20 you're doing 150 Grand a

month with no code Dev basically yeah so why did you choose to go down this path if I look back on kind of my life I've never been technical and so that that was kind of a big thing for me because

I've been very into you know solving problems building Technologies in high school I I launched you know an app that was basically like a Kajiji but for my school so the idea was like sell I

always saw people buying and selling things on Snapchat like shoes phones whatever so I was like how can I build an app to solve this so then wasn't able to code so what did I do I looked into you know what are the other options and

I found bubble started learning and tinkering with that and two weeks later I had an app launch it to my school got almost my whole school to use it and I was like Wow and so that was like the

light bulb moment where I was like this technology is actually super powerful um and um kind of fell into it from there so you literally had an idea for an app for your school you didn't know how to

code but you built it in two weeks with bubble exactly and it was software yeah yeah that was what how long ago three years ago yeah it's probably like grade

10 so yeah wow okay and so you've had an interesting Journey with online businesses yeah this wasn't something that you immediately stuck with but tell me how you came to the conclusion to

build a no code Dev agency yeah I would say I would say like many people probably watching this I very early knew early on knew that I wasn't going to go to school I wasn't going to go to college and so uh through our high

school like going back to that app I was trying to figure out like what can I do what's going to catch so I don't need to go to college because ultimately like I'm not just going to not going to go to school and have nothing to do like I

need you know to actually be able to show my parents and show myself that I can work on something and be successful and so in in 2020 um I started a media

kind of marketing agency where I would shoot real estate videos for realtors um and just help with like social media ads that kind of thing um and all of a

sudden Co hit and you know that was a really big opportunity that I saw one because I didn't need to go to school so I made an agreement with my teachers that if I just did the assignments I wouldn't need to show up to the zoom

calls because at that point it was just like you know one hour two hour Zoom calls every day but I literally couldn't go because I had like meetings booked all day you were in high school high

school so I literally had to go to each one of my teachers and you know I was like if I because you know they grade you to go to class and so I would just fail if I um had to go to school because

it was either between like saving my business meeting with my clients or like going to class So Co like really helped cuz ultimately like if that was in person like there's no way I would have been able to make that same argument they would been like what are you

talking about I eventually also saw an opportunity that a lot of my clients were like we need to go digital like we need solutions to like be able to you know Zoom is one option but you know doesn't really cut cut it to like the

real world or what it used to be and so we had this one like taekwondo like Studio that was like we need to like you know really change our business and at the time like people didn't know how long this was going to last right this

could have been like the next 5 years we have no idea and so um again going back to like how can we like help them you know software is how I solved that problem previously as far as just like

that's where my head goes and I don't know how to I don't know how to code so where do I go bubble again and so I built that first thing on Bubble it was pretty janky like wasn't wasn't like our

press work but um it really taught me like wow this is actually a real tool that businesses and startups can use it's not just some gimmicky like thing that like I can use to like launch

something to my school and so that was really the Catalyst um and uh went all in on Bubble you know became like an official bubble agency hired you know you know designers developers and uh

yeah rest is history you're building for some of the most legitimate companies in the world you have some Fortune 500 clients at 20 years old which is insane but you're also building software products for some of the biggest

creators on YouTube so why are these people coming to you and why are they choosing a no code agency over traditional Dev when they have the unlimited resources basically the

productized agency model is the most scalable way to sell your services so if you want to learn how to productize your agency go to wgm academy. and start the

productize agency Playbook course today in this program we show you step by step all of the systems and by the end of it you will have a fully productized agency ready to go and you'll be ready to

accept payments so if you want to learn how to start a productize agency go to wgmi academy. and get signed up today

wgmi academy. and get signed up today yeah yeah I would say you know Iraq is kind of the Creator example that all uses we helped you know their team early

irq irq the YouTuber YouTuber cre career now um and so they uh we got connected with them I would say like maybe early 2021 um and they were basically in a

pickle where they like had set their launch date um I guess they they did they did need something at the time that was like you know pretty like fast like they needed to get this up like what was what were they trying to create creat

yeah so it's basically like a cohort for creators right so it's a way to um you know people that are looking to create videos and you know become a YouTuber to go through this like six week six week

incubator where every week There's a challenge and then they you know we connect it to the YouTube API so that we're able to actually verify that they completed those challenges with and

posting videos and so they already set the launch date um I think the reason they chose bubble is one of the speed and also the cost I think like just like any company like you don't have infinite

resources they have money to start but um so we got connected we ended up like scrapping together that like first thing and literally I think we had two weeks it was like it was like you guys need to

like come in and save the day kind of thing um and so we did that I think they were pretty impressed with what we did and then it ends up us you know kind of redesigning it rebuilding it again and

then supporting them for you know probably sixish months before they um raised a bunch of money and kind of started scaling scaling so it was this basically a software app for other

YouTubers AR is a big YouTuber like one of the biggest literally and he was hosting a challenge if people wanted to get a lot of Subs like basically who can get the most subscribers or most views in a certain amount and so you wanted to create like a custom course platform but

also verify their performance so you connect it to YouTube's API to guarantee the views and the subscribers and there's other features like communicating and challenges leaderboards and all that exactly and you had two weeks to build that in

bubble yeah I mean we we had like a little bit of a base to work with because they like tried with some like devs and it was like so we had some like wireframes kind of thing but it really we had to like rebuild a lot of lot of

what they had and then rethink it um I think we even like completely redid the designs in like a week um and so yeah career now wasn't even just an experiment too like this was like a startup that they like you know now they

have you know millions of dollars behind them and you know are have investors so um they really need something that would also like scale and be able to like you know iterate fast so they kind of just hired you guys cuz they were in a pinch

and they needed to move quick the concept and bubble like that's literally the best way to use bubble right now just make a very quick MVP and see if there's demand for it exactly it's exactly what we're doing so that's

really cool to hear okay but you're some so I feel like I want to kind of make this clear because you're going to come off as like some really really intelligent another 20-year-old Wonder kid it's like the theme of this podcast

now where you're making $150,000 a month at 20 years old and you're a software developer in people's mind so they're probably going to classify you was like this kid genius another Mark Zuckerberg who whatever

figured out how to code in his college room is going to be a billionaire and they will think that you they they will use that to like separate themsel from you like oh just want to they'll put you in that group and then think it's not

possible for them yeah Talk touch on that yeah I would say I mean it's crazy that like literally three years ago I was in high school like I was sitting in

the back of my class on my laptop while my teachers were teaching whatever they were teaching and I would just be like lasered on my laptop um and I think a

lot of people I just hated school like I just I just didn't understand why I was there I wasn't learning anything I enjoyed I didn't think that the path it led to was one that I would enjoy and so

there was definitely a period of like really like needing to figure that out and so as I kind of said like throughout my high throughout High School I was going from like Drop Shipping affiliate

marketing um smma I did real real estate you know videos I I literally hustled like every year was a different business you know um and nothing was working like nothing

really like clicked like I was lucky to make $1,000 like in a week but by the way like not $1,000 every week like $1,000 like one week and then make it

again maybe in like two months so it was very much like it it felt like early success at the time because you know if you make you know $11,000 as like a 15-year-old

it's like whoa a lot of stuff then you realize like you probably can't live off that um and so there's like there was a real like ticking Time Bomb for me um

because you know my parents didn't want me to not go to school um my grandparents didn't want me to not go to school my friend's parents even commented on it I remember being in the

car with one of my friends um moms and she's like so what's your plan after school and I was like well I don't think I'm going to go to school and she's like basically long story short she's basically like well that's a horrible idea like what are you going to do

you're going to be a failure like I'm like maybe hopefully not um and so I think that I would I'd be surprised if there wasn't like a lot of people that

are in that in that position like of like what do I need to do I have a lot of pressure on me from all these outside perspectives and I just need something to work um and you're probably trying a

lot of different things um I would say for me what was really a mindset shift um was I think you need to stop

worrying about how to make money and just worry about like how to give value to people and how to do something you actually like because even if you like are doing something you really like and

you're making like you know little to no money if you enjoy every waking moment you'll find a way to make money out of it and so for me this was like software and this was no code and that ultimately

I I got in at a good time um as far as like we no could played into and it's still a really great time right now like it's still very early right now is the good time yeah like it's not this isn't one of those things where it's like

commoditized yeah like this this is like you know I'm talking like two years ago you're the only person I could find on this topic by the way like I looked for so many people and so I want to make

that clear so I would say you know for me that was that's what clicked and I'm sure for a lot of people that could be the thing to click too because I think it is such a big opportunity and is so accessible like never before could you

literally like build a software business with like zero dollars to your name like that's I mean sure you could code it but like that's going to take a really long time um and now with the power of Tik

Tok and in short form like if you're going to like spend all your time marketing something and building a brand you might as well do it for something that has like infinite scale as you said

so I I was like in the people that are watching this like I was like very much in your shoes like probably like you know 24 months ago um and then something and it works and

you start building on it you know as as as we said like you take one thing you reinvest you do it again you do it again and you just keep going until hopefully

it never stops um and so this this isn't a Bel intelligence business as I'm sure anybody will tell you is like 90% Common Sense 90% like okay like what would

anyone what should I do now what should I do now yeah like if if if you think there's some like magical like someone going to tell tell me how to get started and walk me through every step of the it's just not going to happen like

people I think the number one question I get is how did you start like why did you like like like how how did you build this and because most people look at it it's like holy like they they they

they look at where I am now and they see Zero right and that's a big that's a big thing but if you look at it as like I'm at zero how can I get to like you know

$0 a month let's say how can I get to $100 a monthly that's that's much more manageable so it's like you you got to like treat it more like broken down like that nobody starts a billion dollar company

thinking how to build a billion dollar company because billion dollar companies operate very differently than $10,000 a month companies And1 million doll companies so being in that like framework and that that way of like

thinking is is really important um and fall falling into something that you actually enjoy like you know what I mean like I agree with this 100% I think a lot of people are but they're in a situation of like survival like they

need to make like $2,000 this month or they won't pay their rent or they're in a really bad family situation so they don't I feel like they don't like hearing that but I but fall in love with the act of working on a business and

trying to make money with it cuz I have the same story as you I tried smma I tried Drop Shipping but for like these like three month six month stin of my life I can say I tried it but you that

doesn't like convey the visceral Vivid experience I was going through for three months trying Drop Shipping and learning all these skills and so you have to try something you learn a universal skill you try SMA you learn the sales skill oh

you try affiliate marketing you learn the ad skill and you're learning these skills and then you finally stumble into something that you actually like doing you stick with it a little longer and you've stuck with or and you've attained

those skills then it clicks for people yeah no that's exactly like Drop Shipping I lost money I think every other business I like basically lost money like nobody like yeah people make money in Drop Shipping but they also

really the people that make money in Drop Shipping are the people that have a knack for one aspect of the business I think probably is like one big one is creatives like they're really good at

Tik Tok you've seen that you had alliv our tab chocolate guy on like he's got really good at creating videos and he probably really enjoyed that and so the business did well that's not even Drop

Shipping though that's just yeah I guess not right I guess is his third party he has a third party logistics company so he's not I mean I'm not even saying drop I'm saying Ecom eom yeah yeah sorry yeah

my bad but basically it's that's the point is like what are what are you naturally gravitate towards I just naturally gravitate towards content like I like making videos that was my first

business was videos and I like teaching people stuff I'm always teaching all my friends the business that I was doing and so like that's a natural fit for me to make content Brandon complete opposite he loves analyzing software

companies and figuring out how they made it work what did they connect and so he has a knack for just figuring out and solving a problem like it's a puzzle where I could never sit down and like even for 10 minutes do that and so it's

really coming down to learning these different skills through trying a million things and then once you try eight things you're like you know what I actually liked try number three let me stick with that through a long time yeah

because you that's the hardest part for people is every business model works it's just are you good enough to make it work right now exactly and it's usually typically because you're undereducated and undere experienced yeah so but that's why it's so cool to hear your

story because you're like one of the first people to figure out this whole bubble agency and then building software on top of it like you have such the right most high leverage Strate stry from the fact that you're 20 that holy

what's going to happen the next 10 years for you yeah it's so cool yeah now what about other clients what about like your more Enterprise clients let's say yeah yeah I mean I can't I can't say

names just but um I would say you know a lot of our B clients we're seeing a big push towards internal tools um Salesforce for PE or you know other crms

a lot of times don't cut it for these like really you know either like specific organizations or you know have complex workflows and so we're seeing a lot of Fortune 500 companies reach out

to build these like super sometimes simple sometimes complex internal tools um the benefit with no code is like one they don't want to put like millions of dollars behind it because it is just an

internal tool um also we're able to like build that fast and iterate fast because you know as the company changes they need the tools to change and so um that's kind of the use case that we're

seeing and we're seeing it from like Enterprise like we're talking like media companies that we all know you know organizations that we watch and all that stuff to like medium small businesses that are doing like1 to10 million dolls

a year in in Revenue how do you choose how much to charge for these companies yeah I mean I would say our model has tend to be like fixed costs so we we really have like you know building a

scope of like defining like what we need in this product I think a lot of times people can get like carried away also with that first build and so we help them try to narrow in what what is the most important and then um from there

it's like okay how long is this going to take um what what do we need as far as Integrations uh and then we just put a price to it and go at it okay so is this is using bubble like a competitive

Advantage like are you able to charge less than a traditional Dev agency because you're using bubble and that's why you're able to get these like very big clients basically yeah exactly so I mean to give you an example like I mean

a company that probably everyone knows not saying we work with them but Airbnb okay so if you were to go build Airbnb traditional Dev today you're probably assuming you have to go hire an agency I mean maybe if you're a really good Dev

and you can do it yourself that's a different story but if you go to hire an agency you're probably looking at at least a six-month timeline you're probably looking at at least you know $250,000 and so to do that same thing

with us or another agency you're probably looking at like maybe two months and then you're probably looking at like under 50K so it's just like drastically different right and you're

probably one of the first people to really figure out this agency model because it's interesting like you're as an agency you're not the one doing the bubble work at this point like if you're

doing 150k a month you can't possibly do that yourself so you are hiring bubble devs yeah and so there's no difference in hiring a bubble Dev than hiring a like a normal full stack Dev right so

it's like you're specifically choosing this and this is giving you a competitive Advantage with the point that you're a 20-year-old working with the biggest brands in the world because you can do the exact same thing they're looking for way cheaper way faster

because you discover no code tools right so this is like an Arbitrage opportunity because it's a new opportunity yeah no for sure and I I would say like no code

is like just getting started like we're you know as the space gets bigger I think like people are putting out reports that like even internal tools right like internal tools is just one sector of like where no code could play

in and that is like getting drastically bigger every year organizations are spending billions of dollars and so even if you can tap into like a tiny fraction of that and help you have a really big

opportunity um and I think a lot of these companies are getting sick of like the the sales forces of the world the Oracles of the world that just like relentlessly charge them like hundreds of thousand dollars a month and so it's

a really easy opportunity to be like look we'll build you something cheaper it'll be way nicer it'll be you know faster all this stuff and specific and specific to your business and by the way it's like 20K not like 2 million for one

like one off payment yeah yeah it's a no-brainer and I think so online in the online world all YouTubers like me Iman Sebastian whatever we're teaching these make money online opportunities yeah but

I think it's because they're easy to imagine they're easy to understand okay Drop Shipping I need to pick a product I can sell it and I can tell my friends I have a t-shirt company or I can tell my friends I sell this toy and so people gravitate towards that especially

younger people where it's really cool that you're a younger person and you understand like all the money is B2B with these big companies and solving problems for them and so you're building software that's 10 times cheaper than

the Salesforce options and you're building custom solutions for these but in 18-year-old who hasn't had experience in that world just doesn't know that exists so how did you like figure that out and then how did you get your foot

in the door with these people yeah I mean I think in my experience it's like you kind of like learn as you do right and and learn as you go kind of thing so you know as

business would come to us I would just see use cases you know come time after time that were very similar right CRM is a big one um but there's just a bunch of others that just keep coming up and you were starting with like a small company

and then they just had like a problem and you're like huh I Ed this I use this tool bubble in high school so I can just maybe use bubble again for this company right and then you started to realize

that these all these companies higher up the chain have the same type of internal problems and so was it more just word of mouth because you like worked all the way up to the CH up the chain so I'm so curious like how did you go from a local

Taekwondo company to AR into an Enterprise Fortune 500 company like yeah yeah um I mean I think one people would be surprised by the power of like just

you know one person works at X company then moves to X company they take your tool over to that company one some of our biggest Enterprises like that's how we got them like maybe an employee or a

VP at like a midlevel Enterprise went to this like Fortune 500 company and they're like wow we really liked what you did let's do it here and so from that perspective it's like what people need to realize for B2B is at the end of

the day you're working with people and so it's still the same like benefits that you need to sell is the same you still are like selling On Emotion because at the end of the day like I

think people think of B2B as like this like oh you got attack this organization and like ultimately like you you are you were selling a person right and there is this person on the other end of the you

know business or other end of the line that is driving that to in in that company right so um just using people that we you know have worked with and you know expanding our network has

really been that that main way we've done that how do you how like literally how do you find them like are you like going to networking events are you like in online communities and you're just

you see someone say hey are you on LinkedIn like what are you like how are you getting this your name out there or in the mix of these opportunities at the start especially at the start yeah I

mean a lot of it is like yeah just hustling right like I think people will be surprised how far you can get with a good cold email campaign as I'm sure like you know like you you set up like

an Apollo sequence you know go after 100 people in Industry um you know business owners and you you you go after a very specific problem that they have like you're not going to get all of them

respond but maybe 10 five and you go from there right um and so a lot of it's that events just networking um and now content's like a big thing I think that's where everything's heading so you

know trying to build personal brand blogs all that stuff so essentially if you were like literally starting from scratch you would just set up a cold email campaign on Apollo are you targeting a would you target any specific industry or would you just

Target like a type of person like how are you sourcing Apollo cold Outreach yeah I mean there's there's many ways to go about it it it depends like what stage you're at I would say if you're starting from scratch and you want to

create a SAS you know let's say $10,000 a month SAS I would say first pick pick a local demographic as in like the city that you live in it's easy to like be

able to connect with people on that level like hi I'm from X city right and then I would say pick a you know pick some kind of industry that you're somewhat passionate about and that you

somewhat understand and if you don't like go research what those Industries are um and then you know I would also say start with a comp don't go for the big fish like go for like the smallest fish you can go for the restaurants go

for the local you know barber shops like those people have problems and maybe they won't pay like millions of dollars for them but they may pay like a couple hundred dollars a month for them right and then from there you you're like okay

this is this works what now how can I go to a bigger business and do the same thing so it's almost like you could get a job at a restaurant and then just like look around and be like there's a very big pain Point here with payroll they

have to do payroll manually they have to count all the cash handed out and like huh I could just go home and Tinker on bubble and figure out a way to make this a little easier for him and say hey I built this would this help you as a

manager they say yes charge them 100 bucks a month now you can just go sell that to every single restaurant one by one and just put their branding on it basically yeah yeah and I would say like

the big Advantage is like before you couldn't do that because like I mean you gota know how to code um or you're going to go hire a Dev and so that's just not that just wasn't possible but now it's

like anybody that wants to like maybe take a couple weeks to go learn bubble can go build anything like that in probably a matter of you another couple weeks so you're going to see a lot of

these like Niche B2B SAS companies that are probably scaling you know pretty locally but like doing anywhere from like10 to $100,000 a month pretty quickly because they're solving a very

specific problem um and you know they're not trying to become the sales first of the world they're not trying to solve everyone's problem um every company says if you can solve one problem really specifically charge even like $100 a

month to these businesses like they're doing like if this problem is going you know for the payroll example if that's going to save them you know maybe it's like mismanaging payrolls who knows like maybe that's the issue if that's going

to save them maybe $5,000 a month and like Mis payments or whatever it is and you're going to offer them a solution for $200 a month that's a big win for them it's a big win for for you it doesn't make sense for Salesforce to

make a very Niche restaurant pizza restaurant cash tip feature into their CRM they're trying to serve a broad market and so bubble allows anyone to come in and solve hyperfocused problems

and you can easily make $10,000 a month even maybe $50,000 a month with one of these softwares and you really just have to solve it for one local business get your in and then now you're just focused on the cold Outreach to get more and

more sales which is really easy to do with AI tools and Apollo like cold Outreach is a lot it takes some work but it's not rocket science but I will say

you are very articulate and that is pretty important like I think a lot of people have a limiting belief like oh I'm only 18 I'm 19 like how do I is that going to be a problem has nothing to do with your age it's like if you send a

cold email and you convince them to get on a call with you are you believable do they trust that you actually know what you're doing and you can execute on them if you're asking for money but if you have that first example of the

restaurant it's proof right there as long as you can like make them believe that you made that you should be able to close the deal no problem right I I just want to say like obviously maybe slightly articulate now but like it was

not like that like I would literally get on calls first off camera off because I didn't want them to see I was 17 or whatever I I think I think for the first two years of my company I I turn my camera on one and they gave you tens of

thousands of dollars I mean you know I had eventually I hired a salesperson to take those calls and so you know pretty quickly I learned like delegations a big

part of business and so I I think after that first build I never did another build again really yeah so you just took that money so you you could leverage the next deal and get paid up front and then

just use the money for that closed deal to hire the bubble Dev is that what you're saying yeah it's a positive cash flow cycle right so you know and a lot of agencies that are set up right have

that where it's like you get the money before you actually do the work um so that means like you don't need any money to start like literally um and so people always ask me like how'd you get started like how' you get

the money to get started like there's no trick to it you know I mean like you just you just start it's very straightforward you see that they have a problem you say hey I can solve you this problem would this help you yes okay

it's going to cost like $5,000 for the whole scope of work pay me that and I'll get it done and then you as an agency founder your job was to get that deal now you just are responsible for getting it fulfilled but you can pay a bubble

Dev 1,500 bucks yeah then pocket $ 3500 then take that 3500 hire salesperson and multiply exactly that's all it was yep your salesperson is now just dealing with inbound then yeah okay so how are

you getting the inbound yeah I mean just like um referrals are a big one right um rfps so that those are like rfps are request for

proposals so these are like systems that you can find pretty much there's a bunch of them um that you can go and basically sign sign up for and what will happen is

it's basically they basically um create a big it's like if if any company is like I want to hire software developers but they don't know where they'll look they these RFP websites will basically

like filter like all the kind of the best places I mean there there like there's marketplaces right which is like um you know five or upwork those are

just marketplaces but rfps are it basically stands for request for um proposal or request for bid um and so basically you can just get a bunch of these companies that are like we want to

build this for X budget and then you'll have a bunch of agencies competing on that bid right um so we just got really good at winning those um and so we built the whole process of like first you got

to hit them first then you got to you know really walk them through a really nice process of like what they're going to get um and so we started winning a lot through that and then just reinvesting those until you know then

eventually ads spend comes in you know actually running ads content okay so I want to go deep on this RFP thing because I've never heard of this before yeah so it's request for proposal and they just websites what are the

websites I mean most like bubble has one web flow I think has one most of these like companies I think Salesforce has one they all kind of have these rfps and

they're basically like you know instead of going to each individual agency and trying to request a bid you just go to like this one place request the brids so is this what you mean by you're a

verified bubble agency RFP okay how did you become a verified bubble agency um I think you I think anyone can sign up to get these rfps um there there

are now tiers in place so it's like gold silver and that's just based on um how much work you do and client success and that and that kind of stuff but um anyone can sign up and just do it if you

get an RFP yeah and you want to get that deal what are you saying to them yeah so I mean first it's like time to response is a big thing so you got to be like

quick right like and you know we have ways of kind of hacking that system but how I mean we started playing around with automations um you made your own

software to win rfps more like a just like a zapier kind of um but uh then people started catching on to that pretty quick um both clients and other agencies started doing it so then now

it's just like you got to be personalized now I think the world is um I see a lot of people entrepreneurs talk about like the how SDR strategy is dying basically like the cold email

strategy like it can get you to a certain point But ultimately like people are kind of numb to it as far as like the consumers right people get hit on their email every day their texts their

you know mailers whatever it is like they're just getting hit everywhere Non-Stop and so it's really hard to stand out in an inbox that's filled with like 10 emails that were also sent that

same hour and so um that's why being personalized and going back to the RP like that is a big thing like how how do I actually like respond in a way that like makes them see that we've thought about what they said you know I mean and

so from there it's like then it's like okay cool we can help you here's what we do giving some social proof as like who we are um and then link to our calendar schedule a call okay so it's like just

looking taking 15 minutes to see what the company's all about making sure you deeply understand what they want yeah speaking to that in the message and then just making sure they very well can see that you're credible you've worked with

other companies look at what you built before and then just hop on a call this sales call basically and that's what your sales person is doing right and that's basically just what they're doing all day every day just ready for those

rfps doing the personalized Outreach I would say what is like the expected lead time so say that you get on one of these calls with these people from that first call to closing the deal sending them

your scope of work getting and then receiving money how long is that typically yeah I mean depends on the company say but I would say you're probably look a good deal would close in

two to four weeks you know Enterprise will close in many months yeah many months yeah I get that okay so two to four weeks for like a typical midsize company from an RFP on

the bubble Marketplace so are you charging all up front half and half what is your typical structure it's usually it used to be half and half or leaning towards like the monthly model now um

going towards more of the product High service of just charging a monthly rate and you know kind of getting access to our team um but yeah half and half is kind of typical why do you want to go we do monthly rate yeah so why are you

interested in that specifically I would say just it's just the way that things are moving um I mean you obviously look at SAS right SAS has basically did the

monthly rate for you know Spotify did it for iTunes right um it's basically because people don't want to worry about like if they want more they just want to eat they don't want to worry about it's

the same as like a yeah all you can eat buffet that's that's the genius of it is that if people want more they pay the one fee and they just go go eat all they want it's the same thing for Spotify it's the same thing for Netflix if you

don't want to watch a movie you just pay this the fee right and so it's the same thing it's like businesses want that too they don't want to worry about oh if I have to add this then it's going to be this much so if we can you know estimate

roughly how much it's going to time time it's going to take um um then we're able to you know roughly price like this is what's going to cost monthly but we're flexible with it like you kind of just

get access to a devb designer pm and for that you kind of just can work in what they can handle you know every month basically we have found it to be probably the best win-win situation for

most these companies because we're only working with companies who make probably around a million dollars a month in Revenue maybe 500,000 a month in Revenue so they are they can afford like it's basically like you get a full development team for the price of one

employee yeah and on top of that you get anything you want built and so typically with a Dev agency it's like you work with three agencies for three independent Scopes you don't get anything until the third month with the monthly

process you're basically just building them piece by piece as they go they can pause and start and on top of that in theory they're always going to need you whether it's upkeep for the app whether it's more features so it's like you're

actually building a relationship with these people so I've seen it it's done us very well very quickly which I've been surprised for so yeah it does make sense that's where most people are going

and the async communication is like saves time so much better so it makes a lot of sense okay so that's your agency what's it called by the way digital how

do you spell it c r e m e digital Crim digital awesome go check it out you want software built you have a plug now it's

a time uh yeah yeah www.c chem. digital

um my you know Instagram is it's creme and yeah okay and then Jacob clug yeah Jacob clug at jacob. clug uh on Tik Tok

Instagram Jacobs clug Okay cool so you're crushing it that's again I want to just recap people it is relatively that straightforward like bubble is basically like Shopify just if you can

make a Shopify drag and drop store you can figure out how to make bubble software he did it in two weeks first first app it's not rocket science okay so you can figure out how to build these softwares really easily there's

templates and then from there you just need to go find a business with a problem that makes sense Tinker get it built and offer it to them and if they want to pay for it then hit the ground running start building those for other

companies and then become a verified bubble agency you're going to get these proposals and you try to win the bend bid and so that's just going to take practicing that muscle of sending an offer making yourself sound credible

practicing sales but again not rocket science if you can articulate their problem and make it clear to them that you can solve it they're going to sign up with you okay so what is a range for by the way I was going to say what is

the range for one of these rfps like pricing wise like how are you figuring out that price is it based on hours that you think it'll take for devs basically yeah Bas basically it's just like if it's a fixed scope it's just like how

long is going going to take and then we should put a number to hours yeah and you just gotten an eye for that now since you've had the Reps how much is a bubble Dev kind of ranges I mean we have them on like retainers right so it's

just kind of but you can get them pretty cheap if you're just hiring a you know freelancer maybe like 3050 an hour kind of thing right so you know one thing I didn't kind of mention is like when we

entered the space I think people have the sigma Rand no code that's like ugly janky products right that it's like you go in you like barely works you know it won't scale past you know couple hundred

users even you know tens of thousands of users I think that used to be true where products did kind of suck like design people people didn't understand it because in any like space you're always going to get like the you know the

extremist the Nerds that kind of take it for us and those guys don't know design you know to save their life and so my thing was like the Gap and the reason that I went into the space was like how

can we actually make bubble products that people like using I think we live in a time where user experience and UI you know how a product looks and feels

is so important um if you have a great idea but your product looks like people are just not going to want to come back to it right and so um though getting MVP fast and you know

efficiently and you know costly uh is important it's also important that it looks good and so that was our kind of thing is like yeah we charge a little bit more to get that like design you know touch to it but ultimately like

your going to the outcome is going to be like way better right so that that's kind of where bubble is now where you know there's a lot of components libraries a lot of like you know easy

figma kind of Integrations that you can use to like actually build really nice products that's the craziest thing to me is that you can literally just make a figma and then just connect it to bub Bubble and then just connect the buttons

and it works like it's not like you have to like match it and make it yourself it's like you literally import it then connect the buttons like it blows my mind like I feel like I have a superpower it's like anything that I

want built I just tell my partner and it gets built in a week and that's not normal like we had a traditional Dev Agency for years and now I can snap my fingers and stuff is done and it looks

really good because of the figma side of no code just being able to plug plug it in I don't know how El to express my excitement for this but it's so damn cool and such a big opportunity so you're crushing that and of course

design matters people I think people would be surprised I'm not technical person at all but I think people would be surprised that most software is just like a Google sheet

database and very like it's not very complicated and you just add a nice little front and make it look pretty like literally taking a Google sheet but making it look

better and make automations are the FL like it's like zappier in a Google sheet but with a nice front pretty design that's all most softwares are and it's seems so complicated when you're not a

technical person but sorry side I'm re it's a great way to put it and that's why you're seeing businesses come to it right cuz like what do business run off Excel spreadsheets right and zapier

zapier yeah so it's like now you can just Build It software okay I'm GNA say one more time that's all most of our software is it's just zapier Google Sheets if you can do that as an agency for other companies all you're doing is

just changing the way it looks now that's the back end and the front end is the figma design which is just instead of going to four different tabs you just click a button and then next page click

a button next page it's all just one designed flow I guess it's the simplest way to put it but you're killing it 150 Grand a month bubble Dev agency I think this is kind of a big point where you

have to decide do you really want to scale up the agency to like dozens and dozens of people right or do you just want to keep this as a cash flowing machine and maybe go into a different opportunity so what's your plan from

here yeah I would say you know agencies are great to a certain point they're great cash flow businesses but they are not meant to like scale to you know past probably what we're doing now I would

say like once you get to you know let's say fiveish million a year uh in Revenue you're probably best going something more scalable um because we need to

understand about agencies this is for SMA this is also for Drop Shipping and any real like you know company where like there's physical you know Goods required or there's people associated

with it especially for agencies is that for every deal that we get there is a you know expense already built into that you know if it's Dev hours if it's you know hiring new designers hiring new

project managers like we know what we're going to make every every deal which is good but it means that like ultimately to grow to let's say the next you know hundred million agency you're going to

need a company that's about a thousand people like literally um and so and the same with Drop Shipping right like it's like if you want to scaleable then you need to you know you know your

expenses like you know that like you have to fulfill it you have ad spend like for every deal um for every uh purchase you're getting on that website you basically already know what the profit is on that and so you know Drop

Shipping is a little more scalable than agencies because it really is just about adjusting that knob on the ad spend or whatever your you know your creatives are um I would say what I believe is like really like the ultimate when

obviously being in the software space is like launching our own you know software as these micro SAS products um and so basically the Playbook that like I was kind we just Tred around like going to these businesses and like helping them

is basically the Playbook that we're starting to run now of just um building these micro sasses that we don't necessarily sell as like we can do this for you we sell it as like we have a

product ready to go um and uh it's not just like businesses like obviously there's like the B Toc side so building cool apps that I think are cool um and basically building like a a venture

Studio no code Venture studio is the end goal a no code Venture Studio okay so you're basically you're taking the money from your agency and you're taking that money to build software that you see as

a problem yeah are you charging these companies for the software like as like a so it's like almost like an agency client but then you're building it for them and then you're like wait if this

is a product that the restaurant wants I can actually productize it and sell it as a SAS exactly so I want to make that distinction you're building a software as an aenc for your agency client yeah

but then you see that idea and you're like I can productize it and build a software as a service for much cheaper right so you're probably charging them like 1020 Grand but then you're going to charge a$1 $100 a month once you've

generalized it for every restaurant that Niche that's your thought process okay and then from there you're doing that for a few companies few opportunities that you can see you can manage multiple right but from there you're looking to

start a venture Studio yeah explain that because I've heard that word a lot lately yeah I mean Venture studio is basically a company with its sole purpose of creating other companies um so it's basically you incubate you know

one company and usually you have a process of like how you do that right so it's like first you have your radiation phase then you obviously build it and launch it and so the goal is to have a

portfolio of you know a bunch of these softwares that are generating basically you know passive monthly you know Revenue because ultimately like the agency is cool like it's it's it's cool to what we've got it to you know the

cash is is nice and they are relatively profitable if you're able to manage it well but ultimately like to take an agency you know from where we are now to again you know maybe nine figures eight

figures whatever it is um that just requires so much scale um and software obviously is like for every person you get there's no real cost to that so it's

really just a marketing you know game um and I think that like you also look at the multiples that software sell if you have a software that does let's say $100,000 a month so 1.2 million a year

you can bet that if you if that business is like strong enough and the metrics are there you could probably go ahead and sell that company for a 5 to 10x on Revenue where an agency sells for you're

you're lucky to get 1X Revenue right so there's a big difference there like would you rather have a hundred million doll exit maybe even a billion dollar exit if you have a bunch of these softwares that are doing like you know 1

million a year or would you rather like have that agency or Drop Shipping thing where it's like it's tied to people it's um you know very much like not as like

profitable as SAS and the the long-term exit strategy just isn't there it's the era of Leverage right and now with no Cod tools it's like double leverage I don't know how to describe it but if you can make content infinite leverage

because you can get millions of views after making one piece of video if you can make software Infinite leverage because you make the product once obviously you're going to continually improve it but you make the product once you can get a thousand customers without

any extra costs really right and so these are the two most high leverage things that you can create and so with your agency it's a little more friction because you have to hire more people you have to get another salesperson if you

want to scale it's very linear and so you're using that to make money to then fund your Venture studio and this could be bringing in other entrepreneurs have ideas that don't have the cash flow that you have this could be bringing in an

entrepreneur with distribution like making content and you guys will do the back end and you guys bring a 50-50 deal because he's going to do the marketing you're going to build it but the engine is the agency that's making you money

all these developers you have in your pipeline so you have a Dev agency that can just make any of these softwares fast and then these people with distribution can go ahead and pump it out and you can validate the idea super

quickly so instead of building spending six months on one idea hoping it works you're just doing these little micro Bets with your team and then partnering with the right people yeah that's the concept yeah and another thing is like I

know like people are going to comment like no code isn't scalable no code like devs like all this stuff like there there is a point right like if you're trying to build the next Instagram or Facebook or Uber don't build on no code

I mean start like I think no code is a is great probably the best like validation prototyping kind of tool to get to your first even even a thousand users like people would be surprised you know it takes a bit of time to get those

first users right but once you do then it kind of goes um so you know I'm not saying that like there isn't a world where no code and traditional Dev can live together I think there absolutely

is I think traditional Dev still has its place you know if you want to build those you know tens of millions of users it's just no code won't cut it um but I think if you want to get to even you

know $10,000 a month $100,000 a month where you know you're looking at maybe what like under 5,000 people that are using it you're more than that that's more than enough right and the cool thing about Bubble is that you can hard

code into it like bubble is almost just like more front and focus anyways right yeah like bubble is like super plug andplay right so which means that you can basically like yeah build that front

end and then like you know connect any any external integration tool like you know stripe obviously is the obvious one so if you want to you collect payments you just literally click a button and

install the stripe integration um and then you have like um you can go even more crazy which is like you know I know with some some tools I really want to

scale is they build a you know database and a server that is completely custom code Powers the back end and then um basically they're able to then send that

back to the bubble front end um and it's all hosted within bubble it's still faster because you have that front end on bubble and you can iterate on it fast but if if you're a technology company

and the value of your company is we build this AI right AI you're basically Building Technology and that's what the value of the company is if you're open AI for example right so to build on

Bubble would completely defeat the point almost because um you are basically you know attaching the value to your company

to um a tool that is not owned by you um but if you're able to then plug in an external database that solves that problem right so you still get the speed

and you know some some cost savings with the front end but you can basically build anything and tap into it through an API yeah it's like if you want to include a calendar app in your software

why would you hardcode a calendar app when you can use an API of calendly or Google Calendar and just use all of the Decades of years of features they've built and just include that in your

software like it doesn't make sense and this only works now because so much software is available so many apis are available that you don't actually it makes way less sense to code it than to

just use an API yeah and so if you unless you are hardcoding your own models trying to create a brand new type of AI then it doesn't make any sense to

do anything other than just using apis correct yeah totally and now with AI apis you can just plug in their AI into your software and sell it as your own in a way yeah and I think that's like one

of the coolest opportuni unities because no company has that and so you can go to any restaurant and say hey there are AI apis that can take your too orders for

you now there are AI apis that can talk to your customers directly there are AI apis that can transcribe every message so you can get customer feedback yeah and so this is something that no restaurant has and every restaurant

could use so you could have a bubble Dev agency that plugs in Ai apis and solve that problem then productize it for everybody else I have not shut up about this for the last year cuz it's just I it's just so important and it's so

much better than Drop Shipping or smma or any of these other make money online opportunities because you're learning real skills that provide real value that have actual infinite scale with leverage yeah so I I just don't know why anyone

would be doing anything else because now it's democratized it's the great equalizer of software right and you know the exit strategy the to actually like

someone to someone to actually buy your company is uh is Meaningful like what are you going to sell SMA for I mean there's a reason that ean's probably shut his agency down because they don't

really sell he's not what is he going to make like I mean and then he still has the headaches of like going through that whole process um of selling and you know moving his team he's probably much better off just like doing exactly what

he's doing focusing on SAS you know building agency flow I think educate he launched recently so um you kind of see like a lot of the creators in the space

that used to be doing agencies or Drop Shipping what there is are going toward SAS and that's really where my like money is at as well is like I believe that SAS is like the ultimate kind of

move right now um and like you said I think people also don't realize that all these AI companies are using the same API and just a different front end and they're just tuning it a little bit

adding some like slight like basically prompt engineering is what it is to like get a different output that's all they are and they're raising literally tens of millions of dollars every single day you see a new AI company

there's there's no technology just the front end you're just solving a problem and you're like it is such like a chat gbt you can say anything into it which is the problem and so if you can

systemize an order of prompts to get a specific output for a specific Niche then it's a very valuable product and the front the the front end is now the product like that is all it is now you're not doing anything technical not

creating anything new on the back end you're just choosing the right sequence of tools to use and designing a nice user experience yeah exactly it's so crazy yeah it's crazy I mean the way I like to kind of explain it for people

also is like what what no code is I would say in comparison to traditional adep I like to use the analogy of like a PC like a computer right so I mean I'm sure people you know a lot of people

like building their own PCS um the difference between like I would say coding and and um no code is that with traditional devb a lot of times you're building those like those pieces that go

into the PC like your hard drive your GPU CPU those things usually AR built for you with with traditional depth you got to like as you said like the calendar example like these basic

functionalities to have a feed a lot of times you got to build that stuff you got build those Bare Bones functionality with no code it's like you already have those building blocks so I would use the comparison of like a PC that's great

yeah you just tie in all the so I can just buy a Nvidia 49d graphics card I can just buy Ram I can just buy a processor and then I can combine it however I want where you're saying that

if you're actually wanting to code you have to make graph you have CPU which is justb but all these people they building

their own PC and so that's probably I'm going to use that now that's really good yeah I mean obviously like you know coding has Frameworks and stuff like that too and obviously like not

everything is from scratch but you know there are stuff like you know the easy Integrations of just like using something else um that you have with no code that I don't think is as accessible with traditional Dev or they just tend

not to go that way because you know you're building inal on yous so I'm interested though that you say that because with AI now and GitHub co-pilot yeah like a lot of code is like being AI

generated and it seems like to the point where I think a lot of people are a little ahead of themselves but they think that at some point you're just going to be able to like voice to code like say hey build me a calendar app and it's going to get built so do you see

that being a threat to like bubble or like do you see bubble like being like a short-term window before that becomes the case or what's your perspective on that have you thought about that but I've heard from like my developer friends it's like GitHub is a great

developer assistant basically allows like existing developers to develop a lot faster and just like help like with some basic like stuff that would normally take a lot of time but ultimately you still need to know how to code like you still need to know what

it's saying it's going to get stuff wrong you know you're going to have to tweak it it's a good base though and so you know if you want to go down that route um it just takes it more of a learning curve I think to like really

learn you know all these new Frameworks you have react you have you know all these python JavaScript ja whatever like you have all these things you need to learn um and able to build like a functioning app a lot of the times and

yeah you do have ai to help you but I think you might as well like be able to know what you're actually doing um and use tools that you can go and do it yourself not really need help eventually

AI I think bubble actually just introduced bubble AI in in the yeah like last week they introduced bubble AI do you think they could win the AI like that could be like they're like like they it will it will definitely help I

think you kind of have like you have traditional Dev kind of and and no code kind of meeting kind of somewhere in the middle I think that there's no winner takes all necessarily I think that

there's always a place for no code and I think there'll always be a place for traditional Dev because ultimately you need people who's going to build the you know the no code tools you need de developers and it's also like bubbles

like visual coding yeah yeah no I'm super I'm super pumped and just like as we said like it's just still so early even for me in my business and um I think software as as a whole and I'm I'm

very like Keen to see what happens with no code like last week they just released like bubbles coming to Native now you can build like native apps with it which is like going to be crazy obviously and explain a native app yeah

so I mean primarily what bubble is good at is web apps and that was like the core thing so web app is like actually a good question people always ask me is like websites versus web apps um which

maybe to like me is an obvious answer but a website is like a piece it's like it's like if you go to your restaurant right you go restaurant website they just it's like an information it's just like you can't billboard yeah it's just

a it's basically just a digital billboard it's a great way to put it um where a web app actually has like experience to it it has functionality so you know Airbnb Uber all these like you know Spotify even these are like actual

experiences you log in you have an account you pay so um Bubble primarily is web app Focus um at least it used to be they just launched or announced that

they're launching the native you know which basically is iOS Android apps so being able to like build an app that goes around someone's phone they already had pwas which are called Progressive

web apps which is um an interesting thing that people actually don't talk too much about um which is basically it's basically a wrapped um web app that you can kind of download from the

browser so it's almost like is that like slack house has you have slack.com so you can use slack at slack.com or you can down download slack you have an app on your computer and you open Slack and

it's like its own thing not on an internet browser yeah yeah yeah yeah essentially I would say slack I don't know if Slack's a pwa but it probably is like the same or Discord I don't know yeah I mean if one one thing you can do

is like if you if you're on Google if you're on Chrome if you go to Starbucks I think it's like Starbucks's website or it's even if you go like app.

starbucks.com there'll be like a little download button and that'll pop up and you may have never seen that but that is a pwa you can basically download that web app or website and turn it into

basically a native experience um the advantage of it is that you don't need to go through the App Store so as a developer you know 30% goes to Apple and

Android that's that's a lot um so it's also hard to get into the app store right so PW are a great way and no code is like pretty accessible for it it's really easy to create like a web app

into a a pwa as is but you know natives also coming um it's a it's a really like clean way to just be able to get someone to download something right to their phone so a native app would just be like when I use Discord on my computer like I

download a Discord and installed into my computer and I click that and I'm opening it so I'm not going to the internet and then using discord.com I'm literally using the Discord app that's a

native app okay cool it's like a like miniclip.com playing online games or downloading a game from Steam like on your computer too like you actually own the file basic pwa is like the in between which is like it's not n it's

not technically native it feels like a native app but it's just um you know if you're on your phone like you you may have never even known that you could download websites onto your phone yeah I

did not know that yeah so you can um and uh you know doesn't it lacks some functionality as native like you know native has like better offline capabilities and obviously just like things like caching and whatever but if

you can figure those issues out you can solve for Apple basically controlling your app and how well it does so bubble's going to allow native apps to where you can literally use it like you

can create that works offline internet y huh that's really cool yeah good to know I didn't know that well obviously like you like Instagram like you can't really use it with the internet but you know

what I mean yeah 100% so I want to ask you since you were so young when you started this and you're starting software companies now and you're not raising money because like I feel like I feel like there's one path like let's

use Tyler dank with beehive for example when I talked to him he worked at morning Brew for six years and he firsthand saw how the internal systems of a m multi-million dollar newsletter

works and they invented the referral system and he's building all these internal tools so that's how he validated it in morning Bruce Company being their firsthand and then it just made more sense for him to just leave

use that validation that story to pitch to investors raise 2 half million doar didn't get an A Team to build it because he validated he knew exactly what they needed to do so he just needed money

where the everyday young person it's much better off to just go out into the world find someone who will give you a chance to solve their problem then learn double and then like sell that for a few thousand bucks and then build up your

agency cash flow then take that money to dump into his beehive example through because through your three or four years as a young 20-year-old you will eventually find that one business that has one problem that you can take

massive and if you're stacking up money through your agency that's essentially the same thing as raising money from investors in a way and so those are the two paths it's either like work at a company for five years find the idea

then explain it raise money go straight for it or work through bubble Dev services in an agency cash flow for five years then build a software or build a software the whole time but you're

discovering problems along the way yeah and there's there's one other way which is I haven't really talked about this so we our first like Venture Studio project we actually partnered with a Founder so

um one of my good friends Campbell Baron shout out to him um is building an app Mantra so basically it's an AI powered like Loom take like mix Loom canval like

all these tools and create like a really easy video editing experience it's basic it's I mean sorry a good way to put it is like Loom mixed with Google Slides so it's in the Google Slides format and so

he came to us you know probably 2021 um and with this idea and I and you know he previously sold um one of his companies and you know I was very optimistic around what he was looking to do but

didn't really have the cash to kind of go build that and so what we did was took a good chunk of the company and we built that first product designed it came up with you know branding and

everything um and then they went on to uh you know go raised from you know pretty top tier investors and you know are now private beta I believe and launching soon and so I I don't say that

to like brag I say that because you can also just partner with Founders that already have these ideas there there is a no shortage of people with ideas um and people that have very specialized

um experience in you know Industries his was media you know he he worked at um one of the biggest media companies in and he knew that game and so I don't know that game but he does and I'll

partner with him and do what I know well but the reason you're able to do that is because you're a strategic partner that has a skill that he needs so he could sell it he he understood the problem and he had a means to sell it because he had

the networker distribution and you had the ability to build it no cost to him because you believe in the idea you'll frontload the cost in exchange for Equity so since you have the skill of making it he has a skill of selling it

to perfect partnership you built the MVP he then used that mvp to raise to compete very quickly exactly that makes a lot of sense and that's how and that's the great thing about a Dev agency is

because you can make a like someone can come to you wanting something built for them then you could see the business opportunity out of it and then you could pitch it to them like hey let's partner up and make this a sass I'll cover the cost you make the intros you get 30 I

get 70 whatever it is and then we just dominate here and you could literally build anything for software and it's such a wide open market you just have to understand the problems that exist y back to your point of not don't try to

make money understand how to create value or find problems to solve yeah and software is the best like I can't explain how software's by far the best

business model yeah infinite leverage yeah when the ordinary person be can become an engineer that's that's really powerful for the world and I think that's why no code excites me so much is

because everybody has ideas everybody sees problems in the world but like a very small percentage of people can actually go build on those those are the you know Engineers of the world which is

like makes up a very small percentage of the world um and so now what you're able to do is turn an everyday person into an engineer essentially into a problem

solver and um be able to build these Technologies in in ways that they or and you know in ways that normal startup people may not think of because they're very Niche they're very specific um and

so I think this is a net positive for the world 100% because if we have more like creators and innovators we're just going to get a lot further a lot quicker more problem solved yeah so that's really why I believe in in no code

overall I think it's just good for Humanity I think everyone has an app idea like I think everyone is like there should be an app for that or they have a software idea so let's talk to those people right now say you have an app

idea and say you understand that okay you know what after listen to this bubble is the way and I'm going to figure out and you've agreed that you can figure it out in two weeks like you've seen that you can physically do it what are the steps you think that

they should go through like how do they validate the idea what what is the process to making sure this is a good idea you know what should they do first yeah I mean you know as far as like building the thing you kind of have two

paths right you have the you know go hire someone like myself the agency the freelancer route or you know if you have zero Mone to your name and you just want to you know learn it you can go easily

learn it yourself once you figure out that path then then you got to kind of think okay first off um what problem am I trying to solve I think that's a really hard question for people to

actually answer CU people are really good at being like this is the idea this is this is how it's going to work like this is why it's going to be the next Uber but Uber solved a very specific

problem right they solved the problem of it being really hard to get taxis and and they also solved the problem of playing into the fact that people want personal drivers um you know it's it's a

cool thing to be able to let in the click of a button a car pulls up right and so first Define that really well like Define who you're going after what you know what what what is the problem

like how are people currently solving the problem once you figure that out then I think it's like going to talk to that that audience um and actually trying to learn like how how are they doing those things go answer those

questions because you probably won't have the best Insight off the bat um and then like start like working with them almost building with them um I call it like you know a lot of people call it

like continuous like user interviews continuous user feedback loop um of just like constantly building something taking it to them how is this do you like this refine it do that again and

again and again and eventually you're going to probably land on something that is like actually valuable to them that then you can be like okay cool like first off do you know other people that probably has this problem they probably

do if they're a business owner um and if not then you just go sell it to other people um and you know sell them as a customer as well okay so I will say that this is something that I think people need to understand as well is like how

big is the opportunity also so like that's how you like find the problem that's how you identify it that's how you kind of validate it and get better you talk to the people but at the same time there is a difference between what

we were talking about like a micro staff a $10,000 a month staff like I we anyone can do that like that is not a you only need to solve like a 100 people's problem really to get to a 10K per month s so it can be a very Niche very

specific and everyone's going to say yes it's going to be much easier to sell because it's no one has a solution you're the only one solution you need to find 100 people to offer to but how do you evaluate okay this is a $10,000 a

month opportunity is this a $100,000 a month or is this like a $10 million software company what would you be looking for to distin that because even though it is quick to make software it

also is not like it's still a Time investment like it's still going to take you a months or so to build it get it into the hands of people find customers and everything so you want to make sure you're choosing the right opportunity

like if you have five ideas how do you choose which one to go with yeah I would say like there's two main routes you can go right obviously it's like B2B and B Toc right so b2c is like you're playing

into consumer problems of like you know selling to the everyday Instagram is a b2c Spotify all these like things that just regular consumers are you know are buying um and then you have the B2B route which is like selling to

businesses problems so um that's like Salesforce slack you know and so I think once once you determine like which they both they both have their advantages I would say that B2B is very much like

sales driven right so if you think you're good at talking to people you like building relationships with people um you understand you know maybe some nuances around business and operations or want to learn more um that's a great

one because you don't it's not a numbered game as much like you really just need as you said like even for B2B like 20 clients paying you you know even like $500 ,000 a month like they will

pay that oh yeah if if it if it's valuable enough and you can even solve like if you want to be specific you could be like I want to solve food food

management for restaurants in you know Toronto Ontario but you know you can be that specific and just Sol that problem go like really hard on that or you can kind of set your you know Ambitions a

little bit bigger I would say food management is like if that's the example we're using that's a pretty like broad thing that that that entails a lot of problems that go into there's Logistics there's Waste Management there's you

know people and all that stuff so that's a pretty big you know Market that you're playing into there's a lot of problems that you need to solve and so A good rule of thumb is like the number of problems you're solving your tool solves

that's usually how big the market is if you're solving like I want to make it really easy for my employees to check in and out of work that's like a one really specific problem right but then you can

also go okay do I want to do that in the US do I want to do that in my city do I want to do that what size businesses right so you can kind of play how you want right you can always like go a really specific problem and just be like

I'm going to try to solve this problem for every business on the face of the plan it's it'll be a hard goal but if you do it like there's an opportunity for it yeah it's the Tam the total addressable market right that's the term

that people use okay so that's how you find the idea that's how you want to see if it's worth pursuing right then how do you actually go about giving it to the world bringing it out to the world in

your opinion yeah I mean I think that this shouldn't be done I think a lot of people make the mistake of like having a launch date and being like here it is product hunt day yeah yeah product hunt day and not that like product Hunt is

inv valuable but you should like basically launch the second you talk to a customer the first time like you should be like there maybe there's like the Big Marketing

push it's like a fake launch you know it's been live but it's yeah exactly like it should be live you should have been working on it and intering with people for like hopefully months at that

point um and then once you know 10 people are paying for this this is a clear market and a clear problem that we're solving then that's when you can go like balls to the wall with like you

know content I think is a great one um you know just even playing into communities there's so many like Niche communities in Reddit the YouTube um I think Reddit is if you don't have like if you don't have confidence on camera

if you don't want to make a if you don't want to make content like reddit's like powerful Facebook groups too is so under tapped right if you if you want to solve the dog walking problem it's just cuz it's so easy to like you know who H like

you know what the problem you're solving is and you can easily find groups of people that you know have that problem it's literally titled mechanics dog walkers yeah exactly restaurant managers

of Seattle like you could find that specific groups of people yeah exactly I don't I think people like over complicate it like it's just like exactly common sense like if you want to find dog walkers where you going to find

them in a group you or you go to a dog critical thinking we'll call it critical thinking not common sense critical thinking but but but it's like you don't need to be a genius my point is to figure that out obviously oh no yeah

Okay cool so you keep mentioning content and you keep like leaning towards content content content and you're saying not cold Outreach yes communities but why are you

so big on content right now I think that it's pretty clear that like the engines behind like Tik Tok YouTube um if you can like play them right you can get basically unlimited like distribution

unlimited eyeballs it's no longer like used to be that if you put you know $100 into Facebook you could almost guarantee a return like in the early days of

Facebook like costs were so low Facebook ads yeah face sorry Facebook ads or really any AD Network any paid ads like I think I think people are just kind of sick of it unless you have a really

creative like video or you know ad to run it's not going to like hit the same as it used to when when ads and it's not personalized yeah it's not personalized and so I think

people where do they spend most of their time I think Tik Tok Instagram these platforms and they buy from people that they trust I think that's a big thing people aren't just going to like buy

your like random Drop Shipping like bracelet ad anymore I don't think um they buy from people they trust they buy from you know people that they can even relate to and they then people

ultimately buy from stories right so I think that content is has all those aspects of it it's it's free and so if you can just like get really good or hire someone that's really good at

content you basically have a growth engine on lock right 100% so I do think it's so interesting now that it's all algorithm based it used to be you have to make content get subscribers and then

only your subscribers would see your content and then if you wanted to get further you have to run paid ads paid ads used to be very effective but now we've shoved it down people's throats they've gone the other way they hate all

ads it's inauthentic and this is the rise of ugc creators where you're having everyday people just make reviews of your content and it's automatic through these organic algorithms that will just

recommend videos that the platform thinks you will like because they know you better than you know yourself yeah and so basically distribution is free now yeah and you have a pretty pretty nice Tik Tok following I would say and

it's pretty Niche and so it's dense and it's powerful like you don't need a million followers to make money like you can have someone with 10,000 followers can make more than someone with 5 million followers if it's the most if it's the right group of people and so

tell me about your strategy on Tik Tok and how it like go ties into your agency yeah yeah I would say just talking a lot about a lot of the stuff that like I'm personally you know interested in doing

just R SAS and no code and like informing people just like we are here of like the powers of it um and I think a lot of people like no code like there probably is good handful of people that will be watching this where this is like

their first time hearing about no code um and so for me it's like just being very specific with that audience and of like just targeting like Tech entrepreneurs that are looking to build

SAS or softwares um and as you said like you don't need a million people to do that you need if you have 10,000 people that like that that's a lot of business you know obviously not all of them are

going to be people that are qualified but like even if 1% of them is uh somewhat of a lead and you you continue to compound that growth over enough time that's a really nice business right

there have you gotten an agency client from your Tik Tok yeah I think we got a couple at this point um that's crazy yeah and I I know like um tens of thousands of dollars just for making a a

few Tik Tok videos yeah I mean M mine are like uh I mean the agency stuff is cool I've seen people like I don't know if you've seen the jet business guy oh yeah he apparently he sold like multiple

Jets on from Instagram for sure it's crazy it's there's not a lot of people doing it and people need Jets like it's a good business so so I mean that just goes to show like there is no like limit of like what you can sell through

content like he's selling $25 million jets through Instagram like there's nothing else and you have no idea who's watching yeah like exact you have to put it out there and I think the number one thing that is most valuable isn't the

fact yes it's attention yes it's top of funnel yes you can get people in your pipeline but not even that it's just somehow if you get someone through cold email or you get someone through a referral what's the first thing they do they look you up on Instagram they look

you up on social media they it used to be they Google you but now they're going to go straight to your Instagram what's this person like what's his life like what's go to his Tik Tok does he have any social media presence and they can see that and like wow this guy really

knows what he's talking about or wow something about him I just like let me get on a call with this guy because if they see you on a screen they just view you like a super like a almost like a celebrity in a way even if you only have

a few hundred followers just seeing you talk gives them a really good first impression and they're going to be way more comfortable way more trusting of you and your agency Services cuz they can see it firsthand yeah yeah I've had

many like of those where people will just be like you looked cool so I want to reach out yeah you know I mean it's not that deep yeah and and sometimes they convert you'd be surprised that's

like how the word of mouth gets like triggered too as well it's like you just have like some like that's the coolest thing to me is that like our we publicly been promoting WGY labs are no code Dev

agency yeah and within 3 months we're pretty much at 50k and it's just just not even the people who watch my channel it's the people who watched my channel had someone who wanted to build software

and the people who watch my channel were like oh I love Brett I watch his videos he has a development agency and they want to help this person this person is looking for a development agency so they're like hey you should reach out to this guy and so they get to do a favor

for the person looking for an agency and now I'm getting agency clients just from people watching my videos yeah but not directly which I think is like way over overlooked yeah no for sure I think I

mean this is like obviously shock like influencer marketing is is not new but I think the the power of short form especially is is an interesting one because it takes so little resources Now

to create a Tik Tok you can just put your phone up and just like shoot and like make and you don't and the again I'll go deep here like we had this idea to build our software for the last like eight months six months April April is

when we started it when I was talking about on my YouTube channel and our whole goal is like okay it's going to take us some time to build this we're not going to rush into it we don't need to get this out in two weeks like we want to y find the right problem and

build it right and so my only job was to build media okay I need to build a newsletter I need to get we need to grow our blog I need to grow my YouTube channel grow my followings and so for the whole time that my partner was building the software and we were

planning it all out I was just building media so then once the software's ready we can get distribution and so the fact that you can do that now so easily and for free if you have a partner and one

of you focus on that one of you focus on getting attention super team yeah yeah that that's really like the name of the game right now software media that's exactly what you're doing like it's not like you're you know you actually you're doing what you're saying and same as me

like that is the Playbook right now is media for distribution software for scale and like actual making money um and I think if you can like really tap into those two if it's you know you

doing both or finding someone that's good at one I think that's like a real business that can like really scale to the millions yeah and the coolest thing about media again I kind of what I

wanted to say there I totally pivoted got all self-aggrandizing but basically is you can build media without your face so like my I didn't build our

Instagram to 200k I didn't build our blog to a million followers it's just find someone so I had my another partner of mine build these Instagram accounts and some of these Instagram accounts

aren't like a talking head it's not a personal brand he just found random like meme Pages or he found like this he grew a Tik Tok from 0 to 10,000 followers in

the last five days he just did this and it's just like a random take on news it's like he made like an animated character he doesn't know how to animate made an animated character with AI made it look like a talking mouth and then

just wrote an AI voice script and then would put like news on his Tik Tok 10,000 followers in five days like this happened this week and so now he has he's built me an audience of 10,000

people around the specific news Topic in five days and we can just promote our software through that now at any point yeah it's just so it's just so crazy that you can build this media because these algorith Ms we'll just send it to

people yeah and so it's like these are the two most high leverage possible tools to use software and video and now it's completely free and now you don't need to code how to build software

so hopefully we've hammered that into people's minds enough yeah but if you guys want to check out Jacob club's Tik Tok what's your handle uh Jacob S clug

okay Jacob S klug clug actually sure I think Tik Tok is jacob. clug and then Instagram Jacobs clug Okay cool so if you guys want to hit him up ask him questions I'm sure he'll be happy to answer and you can learn a lot from his

Tik Tok so definitely go check that out but also last thing I like to ask people or last two questions is for your agency what are all the software tools that you use to operate a lot um I mean bubble

obviously web flow for our landing page stripe for payments zapier um slack notion Notions great everyone

should be using notion um and probably a few others those are the main what are like the niche ones do you have any that are like really random really small tools let me think take

your time I mean the one that we use for PW so like there is one there's an app that we use to like convert bubble apps to PW it's like a subscription it's pretty specific obviously just like a no

code PW that one you know um that's pretty big for your Enterprise clients I bet they want like a yeah I mean I mean even like a lot like consumer stuff like where they want like to make it feel

like a native app right got um yeah there's like AI copyrighting stuff there's like so much stuff I don't even know at this point yeah okay cool all

right so lastly then what is one thing that you thought was true when you were starting your no code agency and now you believe is completely untrue and you've made complete 180 and it changed your

business's strategy yeah I mean I think I think early on I was pretty ambitious that the agency would be like the winner I think I quickly realized that like the

agency like is kind of brutal that's people don't realize it's super grueling like literally being a I don't have a boss except for my clients you my clients are my boss and for anyone who

that runs the agency it's the same so I think my initial Ambitions were like let's grow this thing as big as it can get I think now it's more like how can we cash flow this to the studio and

that's kind of what we've been doing for the past you know six 12 months so your first goal was like make 10,000 maybe $100,000 with an agency and then you thought you were going to be living the high life and then you realize well it's

not complete Freedom yeah and then you've kind of focused on building software but and then bringing in strategic partners with the Venture side yeah exactly yeah like hiring people to

run this the studio has been a big thing so sorry is Venture studio is that basically what's the difference between like a venture studio and like a venture

capitalist yeah um Venture studios are companies that incubate products so you have someone with an idea yeah so so someone will come with an idea or I have an idea and we'll just build it and

launch it and you and then you sometimes you can even go to venture capitalist VCS short and go raise on those products basally in the name I see yeah you're a

studio that basically built and makes product and and operates right and then if you need more Capital to operate you can go to a VC VCS are just cash and so it's like if I have an idea I don't

really want to do anything yeah you'll will you even do sales and distribution and Market or are you only doing development yeah we're we're really only like product I mean you can't you can't

um I don't think you can agency a whole startup that'd be if someone can do it like reach out but well then they why even give the person with the idea Equity you like so I mean you need you

need a driving force I think for any business you need that one person usually the founder that's really going to drive if it's not product then drive marketing and sales um and then that's that's kind of when we're we play in to

kind of balance that product side out um but I think kind of going back to it like I genuinely really enjoy the product stuff and so that's why I like obsess over it and that's why that's

what that's the only thing we do if I liked marketing I would go do marketing or I would offer that as a as a thing as a service as well but I I just don't like marketing and there's plenty of people that do like marketing you have

the Tik Tok content I do but I have a team team kind of doing that and I'm just kind of like the face and honestly it's not like I don't necessarily enjoy like doing it I just kind of kind of

necessary in this AG yeah um I think I think that like you don't need to know it's good to have a base but you don't need to know everything about everything right like have your one lane get really good at it be like try to be the best at

it and then like go find someone that like matches that yeah yeah I I can't express how nice it is to just only have to make contents and then my partner does all the backend operating like it

just I would be miserable and being a solopreneur would be so stressful but that's how you have to start so but everybody Jacob clug I appreciate you coming on sharing the game nice seeing you you too