The AI answering phone calls for priests, with Beside CEO Maxime Germain

We have priests using the product for their church.

>> Now that's a power user.

>> Are people praying to beside? Is that

what's happening?

>> He has so many inbound for the church.

The the beside use case is actually amazing for him.

>> It seems like everyone in tech is building for themselves. But there's one startup building for everybody else. The

real economy as they call it who spend all their time on their phones, not Zoom calls and Google Docs. This week on Access, we talk to Maxim Germaine from Beside, a new service that replaces your phone and messages app with AI.

Everything Google Voice should have been. We go through it all from the

been. We go through it all from the virtues of being a French founder to the rise of the green bubble and building for the real economy, not just techross.

But first, Alex and I react to the week's hottest topics. From ChatGpt's

Code Red to Instagram's choose your own algorithm and Netflix versus YouTube, >> the fake economy.

>> That's how they see it at least. Without

further ado, this is Access. Let's get

into it.

>> Ellis, did you ever have a code read when you were at Snap?

>> I think so. Uh, the night of the Sony leak when all of Evan's emails leaked and Mr. Private was on full public display. I think that was definitely

display. I think that was definitely qualified as code red.

>> Mr. Private?

>> Oh, yeah.

>> Oh, yeah. He he didn't say anything back then.

>> That's true. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. So,

yeah, code reds are a thing in Silicon Valley. Everyone's been reading and

Valley. Everyone's been reading and hearing about this OpenAI code red. It's

got got, you know, it's gotten a lot of headlines in the last week and deservedly so because it's it's >> so funny. It doesn't help when you call it that internally, does it?

>> No, I mean, you're begging for that to be leaked. Um, that is actually a thing

be leaked. Um, that is actually a thing though. That's like these companies do

though. That's like these companies do code reds. There was a code orange

code reds. There was a code orange before the code red, right? It's an

escalating code system. Uh, and really it's like a focus exercise. It's like

you know especially open AI they have a ton of stuff going on focus on the core which is chatbt because as I and others have been reporting chatbt is starting

to have some growth problems because of competition from Gemini but also the moderation constraints that they've been putting on the product where it won't

say things uh that it used to say and that's been hurting time spent. Um, I

thought there was a really interesting story though in the Wall Street Journal recently that shed more light on this code red and I wanted to get your reaction to it, Ellis, because basically

what it's saying is that in this internal memo that Sam Alman uh wrote to the OpenAI employees that part of the the work they're going to be doing on

CHACBT in the coming weeks is a quote better use of user signals which is apparently just using the data of how people are using chatbt to reinforce uh

how the product works. And amazingly,

they weren't really doing this, I guess, before. And this is actually like very

before. And this is actually like very contentious internally uh where you've got these high-minded kind of we're on the path to AGI research people and then all the product people that they brought

in from from big tech and they're going to be doing basically I mean I read this as like Chetch is going to get more engagement batty and the where it always asks to continue the thread where it's

always like can I do another thing for you like we're only going to see more of that it's only going to go more that direction that's what I read in this story and I thought that was pretty interesting.

Alex, it seems like you've had a rough week. Would you like to buy the new

week. Would you like to buy the new Haley Bieber smoothie at Arowan with this coupon?

>> It's a gentic. Yeah, it's a gentic use.

>> Yeah. I mean, I don't necessarily read it as like getting more sick of Fantic since that was such a polarizing issue and probably a bad product experience as

well since it's actively lying to you.

And on the one hand, you could call all advertising lying to you, but um I think the way that I read this is just kind of like all the announcements they've been making about plugging directly in to

different shopping services to let you check out. I think maybe it's just going

check out. I think maybe it's just going to be even more personalized and proactive. I mean, I was using it

proactive. I mean, I was using it yesterday uh to research camera lenses as uh the average sad dad does, and I got my first like instab buy checkout link through Etsy where you could

complete the whole process. And I mean, they just have this infinite trove of information about you and your questions. This is what's made Google so

questions. This is what's made Google so powerful all these years. It's not just the stuff that you look at, but the things that you have intent >> to to know more about and buy. And I

would just I would just expect them to dial that stuff up a little bit. But

there are people I think this is a coming culture clash because there are people in these AI labs uh who feel very differently about this technology than the technology that underpinned Google

and Instagram being able to do an instant checkout and have you buy that pair of shoes that you saw an ad for.

Like a lot of people inside these labs think they are building super intelligence, something like God. And

there is a real I think clash there that this piece was getting into. And I

thought it was important where you've got Sam who kind of represents the classic Silicon Valley VC archetype, you know, Y Combinator startup, uh, ruthless

competitor mentality. Uh, and then there

competitor mentality. Uh, and then there are the people who, you know, built OpenAI over the last 10 years, uh, up until the last couple years when it was a huge consumer company, uh, have not

thought that way. They, it's been a research project to build AGI. And so

yeah, I mean should chatbt be more personalized as to be a better product?

Yes. Um are is it going to be tempting I think for them to use the persuasiveness of this AI to build one of the most um engaging

uh hard to get away from products of all time. Yeah, I think that's probably the

time. Yeah, I think that's probably the thing they're trying to balance and um what this code red is probably going to show on the other side is is where they land. And I have some faith. I mean,

land. And I have some faith. I mean,

with that cultural mix internally, while some folks are going to have a bad time, I think what's important is that that conversation is happening and that with

a leader like Sam at the helm, uh, who seems to have some ideas of goals for society beyond engagement, I think I'm hopeful. I mean, he said on Jimmy Fallon

hopeful. I mean, he said on Jimmy Fallon the other day, Jimmy asked him, "Do you use chat GBT when raising your baby?"

Sam says, "I cannot imagine figuring out how to raise a newborn without Chad GPT." And I just like, you know, have to

GPT." And I just like, you know, have to agree like a thousand% like first baby up Googling content farms at 3:00 a.m.

absolute nightmare inside of a nightmare because everybody's telling you something different. Chat GPT tells you

something different. Chat GPT tells you kind of the synthesis of everything that it's hearing. And if it wants to have a

it's hearing. And if it wants to have a buy button under the internet's top five favorite strollers, I'm fine with that.

>> So, you're fine. Like, uh, engagement, bait, uh, the hell out of it. It's It's

fine.

>> I mean, we're going to have to figure out the right modality for it. I think

what's good about it is that there's competition here, right? I think with Google, there's just so little competition over the years. They just

made the shopping links or Amazon for that matter. Before you know it,

that matter. Before you know it, threequarters of the page is shopping links. And so I also do think that like

links. And so I also do think that like healthy competition including from Gemini which is getting top placement in Google and in Chrome to come. Uh I think they're probably going to be maybe a

little bit less shoot first ask questions later um if people aren't responding to it.

>> Yeah I did I asked we talked about it last week Neuralips that AI conference I asked people there for >> neural >> neural uh where which is basically the largest gathering of AI researchers in

the world. Uh it was in San Diego last

the world. Uh it was in San Diego last week. I asked a bunch of people who were

week. I asked a bunch of people who were there to talk about kind of what you know people were discussing for sources this week and um uh Google was the ascendant. I mean Google was the winner

ascendant. I mean Google was the winner of for sure. Everyone felt like Google was was at the top and OpenAI felt more shaky. So yeah, OpenAI is definitely on

shaky. So yeah, OpenAI is definitely on its back foot a little bit. I mean they still have you know approaching 900 million weekly users. So they're going to be okay but uh it is fiercely

competitive. The other thing just to

competitive. The other thing just to note uh is that uh yeah uh GPT 5.2 coming out probably this week is what I'm hearing. I don't expect it to be a

I'm hearing. I don't expect it to be a huge thing like that's kind of tit fortat with Gemini but I think open eyes betting on this model release in January

with better images multimodality personality tweaking to be the thing that really gets them out of this code red. Um, and it's interesting how much

red. Um, and it's interesting how much they're focusing on personality, you know? It's like when you talk to Claude,

know? It's like when you talk to Claude, you can really see the difference of how >> do that thing you do, Alex. Say it.

>> Claude. Um, when you talk to Cloud, which I've been using I've been using Opus 4.5, the the which is an incredible model, but like they don't do this

personality stuff like ChatBT. You can't

like have it talk to you like a nerd or concise or whatever. If anything, like it's its own personality. It tells you like you're staying up too late and like just stop using me. So there's like a real divergence in like the product

strategies where OpenAI is going more the Facebook route, I think, and anthropics doing something else. And I

think that's that's good for the market.

It's good to have that.

>> It raises an interesting question, too, just in terms of like behavioral science and consumer psychology. Like while

Google does have their AI overviews at the top of every Google search now, they can only apply it to stuff that you're googling, right? And so Chat GPT already

googling, right? And so Chat GPT already just has this unbelievable Kleenex like brand recognition where people are asking deep questions about their life.

I'm not sure how you train people to start putting that into the Google search box. So unless they're going to

search box. So unless they're going to get you over to Gemini, I think they do have that top placement. But even for chat GBT versus the others, I do see this interesting tension. People ask me all the time about like, you know, is AI

going to be horizontal or vertical? And

the more I think about it, I think people are not going to be super comfortable using one AI with all these different topics and all these different tones of voices about your life. Like

I've asked it for advice sometime and then I'm like, can we switch gears to like working on my manifesto again? And

it's just kind of weird. You know what I'm saying? like it isn't how you would

I'm saying? like it isn't how you would treat a person and that's I think why a lot of people like have these hard walls with their therapist about the stuff that they do and don't talk about. It's

because those tonal shifts and contexts really do matter. So yeah, I wonder what metrics chat GPT is seeing. Um are

people switching away? Are they using it less? I wonder even where that code red

less? I wonder even where that code red came from because I mean I have a lot of faith that they just have so much staying power in >> I know exactly where it came from because I've been reporting on this.

They they dialed back uh how sickopantic and uh rabbit holy the model was in August. It started tanking time spent. I

August. It started tanking time spent. I

reported on a call where they acknowledged this with investors a couple months later. They did code orange in like October. Gemini 3 came out in November. They do the code red

and now they're in code red. So, it's a combination of like self-inflicted pain where they're trying to balance like growing with the bad externalities of

that growth and more competition and Google like Google waking up. Uh, so

yeah, it's a it's a it's a hard time for SEMA.

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I think this is actually the perfect segue into this next topic. Like how

much control do you give users over how much junk food they want to eat? Uh te

tell us about this this AI this I was going to say AI story. Uh

>> it's an AI story.

>> We call it we can call it an algorithm story. Uh the old the old days of the

story. Uh the old the old days of the algorithm where we only talked about algos.

Well, I just thought it was interesting that this week Instagram and Spotify had these announcements about basically making it your algorithm. So, in

Spotify's case, it's, you know, you can prompt play playlist, which they've been doing versions of, but I think the end state of what they're talking about is like you being able to dictate to Spotify what it recommends you. Uh, and

then Instagram basically doing the same thing with the reals algorithm where you can prompt it and change it and it'll also show you what it thinks it knows about you and you can share that.

They're making that like a sharable social thing. Um, where so these these

social thing. Um, where so these these these these models that power these feeds that really like intermediate our lives in in a pretty profound way that we don't think about,

they've been very like opaque for so long. And I think with all these

long. And I think with all these platforms plugging in LLM to redo their algorithms, they're like, "Oh, what if we just like chattify this?" And in the

same way that people prompt the hell out of their chat bots and their assistants, like why would you not just prompt your algorithm to be the thing that you want it to be, right?

>> Yeah. I think natural language settings for stuff like this is the bomb.

>> Like being able to ask for things within an app. Like one of the examples Spotify

an app. Like one of the examples Spotify used is that you could say music from my top artists from the last five years and then push it further with feature deep cuts I haven't heard yet. Like that is

ostensibly something you could maybe hack together using like smart playlists in Apple Music if they even still work at all. Um but that's cool, right? Being

at all. Um but that's cool, right? Being

able to use natural language to query that database. Um, the thing the thing

that database. Um, the thing the thing though that just like really messes me up about this Spotify announcement, they said, "Imagine a Spotify that doesn't just passively learn from you, but

literally listens to you." And it's like, man, is this not like what we've been asking for from tech for the last 15 years to not just look at our clicks,

but like listen to us about how we want to spend our lives and and uh what feels good. Because we all know that when

good. Because we all know that when you're on the toilet, like, yeah, it's awfully easy to just click on whatever's most engaging, uh, even if you know it's bad for you. When you're in a bad mood and you walk into the convenience store,

it's so easy to just grab, you know, whatever sweet treat you want to grab out of the aisle. And and they've just made it so easy with so little control

to have influence over it. And so, I'll tell you my conspiracy theory, Alex. I

would bet you that this whole Instagram thing where you get to choose your topics, I would bet you that at most this impacts like 30% of the algorithm.

Like I don't think they're willing to give over full control and let people say, "Actually, I don't want to see any more hot bodies. Actually, I don't want to see any more camera stuff because I always insta buy it. Actually, I don't

want to see, you know, like I don't think they're willing to turn that over." Though I do think this is a great

over." Though I do think this is a great step and I'm I'm honestly shocked that that they're doing it. I wonder like what it says or what it means that that they're that they're doing this.

>> If anything, there's probably like regulation in the EU or somewhere that's like forcing them to do this, you know.

>> Uh but who knows? I mean, it's it's cool. I'm excited to play with it. Um I

cool. I'm excited to play with it. Um I

did want to talk briefly about the big media news that everyone's talking about. I mean, it's everywhere. The

about. I mean, it's everywhere. The

Netflix Warner Bros. or Paramount thing.

I mean, it's straight out of succession.

episode. Yeah, you've got the >> See, we're completing each other's sentences and we're not even at episode 15 yet.

>> Yeah, the uh the Ellison's uh reminds me a lot of the Succession family. Um but I just think it's been interesting as like we live in LA. We're but we're I guess quote unquote tech people to hear the

way Netflix is trying to defend this deal and they have to find a way to defend it because it is it is very bad monopolization of Hollywood, right?

you're gonna have the number one streamer combined with the three or four streamer. Uh, and just, you know,

streamer. Uh, and just, you know, there's going to be layoffs. There's

going to be cost savings as they call it, right? It's not going to be good in

it, right? It's not going to be good in the short term for Hollywood. So, I

totally understand why people in Hollywood are against this. At the same time, I also don't understand why Netflix is going around to regulators in the press and going like, we have to do

this because of YouTube. as if anything that people do on YouTube actually competes with the kind of time spent that you're talking about when you're watching Harry Potter, right? Like is

maybe maybe the world is that zero sum and maybe growing YouTube usage is actually eating into that and Netflix thinks that adding the Warner Bros and

HBO library will somehow steal time spent from YouTube. But I just don't see it. It's like it's like comparing like

it. It's like it's like comparing like and Costco or something like these are just totally different things. Like

yeah, you can go get groceries at both, but it's a totally different kind of customer. It's a totally different

customer. It's a totally different reason you go in the store.

>> Well, can you summarize that case? Can

you put that in a sentence? We need

blank to compete with YouTube.

>> They're basically Netflix is making the argument that they need this content, this extra content and scale.

>> Harry Potter or >> Well, yeah. I mean, all the Warner Bros.

HBO stuff because their real competition is not the rest of Hollywood. It's

YouTube, which is what you say when you've conquered Hollywood. Like there's

no one left in Hollywood that competes with Netflix at that scale. It's just

like Disney after them. And they have, you know, a 100 million or so fewer subscribers. And so if you're a Netflix

subscribers. And so if you're a Netflix position, it kind of reminded me of when I was in the courtroom for the Meta Antitrust trial uh earlier this year and they were talking about like their

competition is time spent across the internet, right? It's not quote unquote

internet, right? It's not quote unquote social media. Every big company when

social media. Every big company when they're trying to defend something that they're doing that's inherently bad for competition will just point to the next biggest thing. But yes, maybe there's an

biggest thing. But yes, maybe there's an argument that YouTube and Netflix are competitors. I can see it. I do spend a

competitors. I can see it. I do spend a lot of time on YouTube and maybe that does correlate to the time I spend on Netflix. But um I just think people who

Netflix. But um I just think people who work inside Netflix and YouTube know that like the reason people comes to their platforms are very different. I

just don't see how that's a lever to even improve on that advantage if that is your competitor. You're like we have the biggest content library and we need more in order to compete with YouTube. I

think if anything there is a medium difference like if they're like we need to acquire the world's biggest YouTube content owner agency or whatever like >> it's a completely different habit a

completely different >> uh device most of the time though I know YouTube is blowing up on TV.

>> Yeah. So maybe maybe don't see how >> maybe my Air1 Costco analogy is not even right. It's like the real analogy is

right. It's like the real analogy is like like Netflix is is Costco and YouTube is like going farming and farming your own groceries. Like these

are just totally different things. Like

YouTube is UGC. Um and Netflix pays a lot of money for its content. And to say that like yeah there are and you know finite amount of hours in the day and

people choose to spend that time but YouTube is not you know doing um you know K-pop demon hunters like YouTube's not doing the kind of stuff that's on Netflix. So to make the argument that

Netflix. So to make the argument that like you need Warner Bros to compete with YouTube. I just I think it's

with YouTube. I just I think it's >> actually funny because at the Hamburger House and we'll close here at the Hamburger House if you can get a picture of that in your mind. We watch the like

Netflix K-pop Demon Hunters and then we switch over to YouTube to watch like every goddamn permutation of those songs.

>> Mhm. And so we are successfully using both platforms. Let's leave it there.

That was some good news. Uh after the break we will have Maxim from Beside. We

will see you there.

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Actually, I like the idea of Max just starting it.

Max, can you just say what you said again?

>> Yeah, so I, you know, I prepared a bit and we sort of have a backstory uh with Ellis uh cuz we've met uh twice in real

life, maybe three times, but two times that I remember. One time uh you know, I was very young. I think I was 21 or 22.

uh and we met uh at this crazy party in New York and Ellis was still a journalist at the verge at the time and

our friend took us uh a little club in New York uh called the box where there was me, Ellis, uh Brian Chesy was here

with us as well. It was a small group of like early consumer tech. It was really fun. Um it's called the box and the

fun. Um it's called the box and the entire looks like that. And this is exactly the view me and Ellis had uh when we were there cuz we were just sitting on that balcony up there. Uh and

the second time Ellis, I don't know the name of the place. I don't know the restaurant, but we decided it was going to be the classic move when we come to uh LA and it's uh you know the picture

is from that place that we went to Yellowstone Frank Steakhouse.

>> It is.

>> What was Brian Chesy doing with you guys? Was he were you all at the same

guys? Was he were you all at the same table? Like what was the

table? Like what was the >> No. So I think we had the club for

>> No. So I think we had the club for ourselves cuz Fred decided that it was going to be a private party. Uh and I think at the time Fred was hanging out a lot with Brian. Brian happened to be in

town and he was in New York. So I had to go and get him at the door with Fred because he didn't know if it was really the right place that he should go into.

Uh, so we came and picked up Brian at the door to get him upstairs at the private party with all of us, which was a crazy crazy night.

>> I think that was like the latest I ever stayed up as a reporter. I was like, "Oh, this is clearly a special night.

I'm going to be up on a school night until 4:00 a.m., but it's going to be completely worth it." I mean, I'd never been someplace that I mean, like that. I

mean, this is just also how much money there was in like the app store boom of like 2010, 2011, 2012. I mean, there hasn't really been anything like that

since. And while I do think the culture

since. And while I do think the culture has changed, uh, that was definitely a special night. And I guess I guess you

special night. And I guess I guess you weren't yet, uh, on our level. Max, what

what were you doing at the time?

>> I was, you know, part of the the French mafia crew of early uh, you know, French founders building consumer app in New York. I was hanging out a lot with Pier

York. I was hanging out a lot with Pier Valad from Sunrise, Fred who had thrown back at the time. I was running a company. I dropped out of school when I

company. I dropped out of school when I was 20. I was running my first startup

was 20. I was running my first startup from my office in Tribeca. Uh, and on the way back home with my red backpack, Fred calls me and tells me, "You got to

come. You got to join this party." So, I

come. You got to join this party." So, I went. So, that's how I ended up there

went. So, that's how I ended up there randomly.

>> Shut up. Yeah.

>> Maybe you can answer. How come all my favorite product founders are French?

This is something I've been wanting to know for a very long time.

>> And you just mentioned a few of them.

Well, I do think uh I see you with a very European soul in many ways. Uh so I think there is like there's probably in

the European culture uh more of an emotional connection to the to the art to great product. Um there is a more of

more depth in understanding uh you know psychology of people and getting to understand these things. And I feel like a bunch of French founders even those coming with a very technical background

still have uh uh you know this sensitivity uh and the ability to sort of like translate into tech to emotions

to consumer which work really well. Um

and yeah I do feel like that's something that I've always seen you appreciate in the way you appreciate product in the way you talk with people even in the the work you do or what you're really good

at. Uh, I do. Uh, yeah, you could be you

at. Uh, I do. Uh, yeah, you could be you could be European, you could be French.

Uh, in many ways, >> it's the best compliment I've had all month.

>> I think this actually reminds me of that night at at Muso and Franks. And I did want to ask about this, you know, the difference between uh, American founders and European founders or French founders, especially in AI. But I

remember that night at Muso and Franks, which is like a big steakhouse in LA that's kind of like old Hollywood. I

remember just how like pumped you were to be there and you were like, "Everybody's hustling. Everybody's

"Everybody's hustling. Everybody's talking about business." And you're like, "No one in France wants talk about work over drinks." And I just like never thought about that. I mean, is that

still true?

Um, yeah. It's super true. I think like once like people people have work life balance uh and they sort of like

compartmentalize work and life and when work is over they sort of like get into an other mood where like you don't really want to

bring work into that that place which I think can be great sometime to disconnect but also does not foster an environment where you though you're pumped by what you do, you're inspired

by the people around you, there's kind of like a big downside to it because I don't think it's necessarily about business, the things we want to talk about. I think we want to talk about

about. I think we want to talk about these ideas, we want to talk about building, we talk about the craft, all of this is not only uh about making money or doing these things. And I feel

like once you have uh you know, I guess like all the world that I that I evolve in, there's lot more passion around what we do. So I kind of have that desire to

we do. So I kind of have that desire to talk about these things not because I think it's work or it's business but more because it's completely part of life and there there's so many interesting things going on doesn't

necessarily have to be compartmentalized. So every time I'm in

compartmentalized. So every time I'm in the US I'm like reminded that uh there we I'm I'm going to have tons of great discussions with people and people are actually going to be optimistic and excited about the things that I do. So

>> I just want to hear Ellis talk in a French accent more. That's all I want to hear at dinner. I think it started off well and then it it took a turn for the worst.

>> No, you were uh you were uh on track.

>> I just love it. Compartmentalize.

>> You you think I'd speak uh with a better accent knowing that I lived for 10 years in New York, but apparently I can't.

>> No. Why would you want to talk like us, man? It's so boring.

man? It's so boring.

>> Well, do you know about California English Maxi?

>> It has more like vocal fry. Well, yeah,

but also there's just like this whole meme online like if you say like yes in California English is yeah no pretty much for sure.

>> Can you try that in that accent?

>> All right, but in in return you're going to have to pronounce my name properly.

>> Okay. Okay,

you go first.

>> Yeah. No, pretty much for sure, bro.

>> For sure.

>> Okay, so now my turn. Uh, Maxim Jerem.

Well, you typed huh huh?

>> Yeah, cuz I was trying to put you in the right track. But this is good. Yeah, but

right track. But this is good. Yeah, but

I kind of like Maxim Germaine because as I told you, it looks like feels good.

Like if it sounds American to French people, it sounds cool.

>> On that on that thread, I mean, how do you feel as a European founder right now? I feel like there was a lot of

now? I feel like there was a lot of momentum in the early AI boom whether it was with Mistral or other AI startups in Europe and I feel like I'm not hearing about quite as many. I mean what does it what does that feel like right now? What

are the differences?

>> I don't even look at these things to be honest or I don't even consider us being European founders or no like we run a US business have tons of people in the US.

I spent a lot of time there as well. Um,

I guess there was an early there was a lot of noise early on, but I'm not sure, you know, noise translate to actual value created or that hype is actually the right driver you should be looking

for. So, I always try to and you know,

for. So, I always try to and you know, we're in stealth for 18 months as a company like even two years. Uh, so I was trying to avoid that and I don't participate in the scene at all in

Paris. I might have like couple of

Paris. I might have like couple of founders friend but I'm mostly just working. So, I'm kind of like out of

working. So, I'm kind of like out of that. I don't really have an opinion if

that. I don't really have an opinion if I'm being honest.

>> It is especially funny because uh do the do the grandmas and real estate agents that you're now serving with beside know that there's some highfashioned French

guys building their favorite product?

>> I hope so. I hope they know. I hope it >> because I don't know if that's ever been done before.

Well, you know, we we do speak with them and it's kind of it's very interesting because I come from that world in many way. I was born in a in a small town in

way. I was born in a in a small town in Lemon. All of my family work in the real

Lemon. All of my family work in the real economy. Um I don't come from the tech

economy. Um I don't come from the tech world. I don't come from you know u a

world. I don't come from you know u a very uh uh you know knowledge worker uh

background. So, you know, it doesn't

background. So, you know, it doesn't feel super unf unfamiliar to me because these are the people I grew up with. The

my first business was actually building websites for plumbers and for uh you know, electrician and all the local businesses around me. So, I just feel like that has just been a full loop to

bring that back uh to these people.

>> I love when we call it knowledge work.

It's like you don't need knowledge to be a plumber or to go out in the real world and do something. It's super demeaning honestly. Like it's just become part of

honestly. Like it's just become part of the vernacular, but >> it is kind of crazy when you think about it.

>> That's why I was looking for my words. I

couldn't find the right way to put it.

But yeah, I agree.

>> Yeah. And in full disclosure, Max and I have worked together for a couple years now. Uh he was actually one of my very

now. Uh he was actually one of my very first clients at meaning and now I'm advising and one of my favorite things about it is that Max and the crew are bringing their level of thoughtfulness

and even just like beautiful beautiful UI design and brand design to an audience that doesn't usually get that type of love. I mean I feel like when you look in the news and AI every day,

it is almost exclusively stuff for other people in tech. Um knowledge

>> Yeah. How did you arrive at this whole real economy uh idea and do you feel like they need it more than we do? Uh

they need the AI more than us because it certainly feels that way to me.

>> Yeah. Well, so you know multiple things came together at once. one, you know, there is this thing from uh Virgil Abau

that I love who was saying like one of the best way to do design is to actually only tweak 3% of an existing product and

the best ideas are often times a 3% uh tweak uh of an existing design. Uh so

the way we we we were considering this internally was that the product should be and feel very neutral to the daily drivers that they already have. So we

really took iMessage as a base for the product. And we felt like if we were

product. And we felt like if we were going to bring AI into these products, we should tweak the 3% of the UI of

iMessage to bring that AI layer in it.

Because if you're working off something that's already widely used and adopted, you're already working a lot of very

familiar uh uh user experience patterns, user interface uh patterns that that are known. And I think every time people are

known. And I think every time people are trying to uh build the own tools or have like tons of opinions in the way things

should be on 90% I think it's too much but if you uh go down to tweaking the 3% you actually are able to drive a lot

more impact for the end user. So that

was kind of the philosophy where we wanted to keep the product super horizontal and the design extremely neutral taking a product that has billions of daily active user uh like

IMH and tweaking the 3% there. Uh and I think then the the thesis we had for the company uh was not that we would end up with product market fit for the real

economy at all. Uh, I thought I was building for myself initially, but I kind of like really like this

nonopinionated way of looking at um, if we bring AI into conversations uh, into a mobile product where all of

your conversations would be recorded uh, where you would have, you know, sort of second brain from all of this conversation where the AI could answer uh, phones for you, the phone for you or

take action based on that uh conversational data for whom would it be the most valuable and we reversed engineered that before launching the

product. We started by launching ads

product. We started by launching ads talking about the feature set without saying for whom it was. And what we learned as we were building the visero

of the product was that or it would likely be successful uh with people working in the real economy because they were the people the most excited about the feature set we are building. And

even the way we keep building, we build in the less opinionated way as possible and we completely surrender uh to the signal we get from the market and from

the users and from us age and all these different things.

>> What is the real economy as you define it?

>> Well, at the moment it's um people who are not working behind a laptop but for whom conversations is where business

happen. So you can take that in many

happen. So you can take that in many ways because the product market feed that we have today the number one user

using the product 250 times a day uh is an insurance group and it's the person uh answering the phone uh for an insurance group who's always on the go.

They're always on their phone. They need

the context of their conversation. We

have priests using the product for their church.

>> Now that's a power user.

>> Power user.

>> Hold on. Hold on. Are people praying to to bes to decide? Is that what's happening?

>> No, he has so many inbound for the church and so many things to remember about the schedule of people or the things they talk about and like all this stuff that he wants this conversation to

happen in beside so he can offer back uh an amazing uh meaningful experience when he has a conversation uh with all of these people reaching out. They're often

reaching out for help or for uh you know personal matters. So the the bside use

personal matters. So the the bside use case is actually amazing for him.

>> Do people know that it's not him?

Because you can train with your app, you can train it to be in your voice, right?

>> So you have two things, right? You have

the AI receptionist. That is one part uh of what we offer. The second part is all of your phone conversation are actually recorded, transcribed and summarized. So

what we've done is that we've rebuilt, you know, phone and texting from scratch. One break is the AI

scratch. One break is the AI receptionist, but that's only one of the break. You then have uh you know full on

break. You then have uh you know full on recorder and transcriber on phone calls.

So sometimes actually just him picking up the phone and not the air receptionist. But the air receptionist

receptionist. But the air receptionist that he filled he filled with tons of data from the Bible and like specific things that he wants uh you know uh the

receptionist to say which is one of the crazy uh use case we we we have. But

there are tons you know of like weird use case in the product that we see.

>> Well, it's not in his voice though, right?

>> You can do voice cloning, but for him the use case is him talking actually.

Yeah. It's uh it's really interesting to me because I think sitting at our desks every day as tech fans and builders, you kind of just assume everybody's a little

bit like you sitting at a desk and when you know all these different meeting recorder companies come out, you feel like it's commoditized and then you realize it's like wait there's all these people who aren't

using Slack or Google Meet or Zoom.

They're literally using their phone. And

I think that's one of the other cool things that you've done is that so many companies in AI these days are building rappers which may be fine if you build the right UX or UI for a specific

vertical you fine-tune it etc. But you also have that actual technical innovation of like as you said rebuilding the telefan stack, you know, allowing people to get a new phone number. Can you tell us about about

number. Can you tell us about about building that in in the year 2025?

Because as far as I know, nobody's tried that in a minute. Uh but maybe maybe I'm wrong. Feel like that was always kind of

wrong. Feel like that was always kind of the Google voice dream or something like that and then it just kind of fell by the wayside.

>> Yeah. Uh well, I think there there are two things to that. one is um where you're right is you kind of want to be able to if everything's going to be

commoditized and if the models are only going to get better and if we think about the context of AGI and on the way to AGI what do we need uh to solve to

actually be able to deliver what we all think AGI can be I think there is a big part of that that's going to be the life context of your life uh everything

happening in your life and one of the context that is hard to capture is conversations. Um, so on Mac OS or on

conversations. Um, so on Mac OS or on your desktop, it's a lot easier because you can record at the OS level and we've seen all of these bots coming etc. But when you come to the mobile phone and

when you come to trying to record a phone conversation, it gets quite hard because you don't have access to it by default on iOS or on Android. So you

really have uh to be able to power entirely uh the phone number uh and all the infra going behind that phone number. Now that we power, you know, I

number. Now that we power, you know, I think it's like 2.5 million phone calls every month. We're talking to like the

every month. We're talking to like the infrastructure provider. We're working

infrastructure provider. We're working with them. Uh we're talking with uh you

with them. Uh we're talking with uh you know, the the right lawyers in the space to build all of that. And so yeah to to power that at scale it's a it's a team

of five people in the company it's probably the biggest mode that we'll create because uh both on the regulatory side and the technical side uh it's extremely difficult to build.

>> How excited are you to sell the company to Verizon?

>> Good. looking into that actually like many of these um like they are all reaching out to run pilots uh with AI companies because they understand some

of these things and they actually want to see like what kind of uh AI feature we can offer to uh some premium plans for these people. I find it to be super

interesting. Yeah, I feel like in a lot

interesting. Yeah, I feel like in a lot of ways what you've built, especially being inspired by iMessage and the phone app just reveals how much there is that Apple and Google just haven't really

been doing or thinking about when it comes to actually using AI to help us.

Uh, do you expect them to come into this market sooner rather than later? Do you

feel like they'll kind of let the applications uh take care of this?

>> Well, Apple does the iOS. I mean, in the new iOS, you can have Siri answer the phone for you. I did it the other day and I think the person just hung up immediately. Um, it's pretty simplistic.

immediately. Um, it's pretty simplistic.

>> It's pretty simplistic, right? So,

they're starting to edge into it already.

>> And you can do a call recording and get a transcript on it, but it shows up in the notes app, which is blasphemously cludgy these days. So, yeah, obviously

they're not experts in AI either.

>> Yeah. Well, I think it's wasted potential uh for both of these companies because there are absolutely amazing experiences to be created if you control the OS with AI. Feel like it's kind of

like a widespread feeling in the industry right now where we're all wondering what they're up to and why uh hasn't this gotten any better. I do

think that they will catch up. I do

think that I don't see a reason why Apple or Google won't get even better.

actually Android is a lot better than Apple on the AI at the OS level. Um what

what we're discovering though is I think like and one of the product theory that I always have is that I think it's easier to grow into usage than to start from us age. So if you start building

with an OS that already has a billion daily active users or two billion and you're trying to build these features, you're trying to build them to please a billion or two billion. you're not

growing into that base and as soon as you push something it's live for everyone. So how much depth can you

everyone. So how much depth can you really cover when you're that horizontal can you actually build for uh specific workflows of people? One of the insight

we have in the product is that that context is leveraged to be shared with teams. uh I don't think Apple

went into making uh even Mac OS or iOS functional as like a business tool or that they would bring the concept of teams within what they build. uh while

it is the core of what we offer and becomes the core value uh as we progress into this unopinulated way of going about things that's what we keep uncovering is that the shared context

within the team the collaboration features are the key uh to grow the product further uh and to expand into the product market fit. So even though

they could and they probably will add more AI in the details of their execution and in the details of where we're growing with the product market

fit, I don't think it will actually uh merge or become too competitive that we don't have a shot at existing.

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It's a good it's a good point about not just AI but about built for work is something that Apple uh at least is not quite as good at. I mean it's just funny

to imagine that everybody at Apple is like are they using Slack or are they just using iMessage to communicate? Are

they using pages and keynote? I believe

that they are which have pretty, you know, ancient collaborative uh tools and I don't even think they have comments.

And uh meanwhile, you know, definitely a little bit of a different situation for Google where they make so much of their money from a lot of this stuff. But to

your point, I mean, even with Gemini being added to Chrome, it's one more button amongst 50 buttons. And even what you were saying about the Virgil Abau quote, I mean, it just reminds me of my

time at the browser company where you want to do so much because you see so many problems and so many opportunities.

And so you create this incredible browser with all these new things, but at the end of the day, if people can't get used to the vertical sidebar, it's kind of a non-starter because you went

too far over that 3%. And uh yeah, I mean I'm curious like for the people who are using beside like what is the magic moment that is that is most valuable that hits them quickest when they start using it?

>> The onboarding for a business is consumer grade leveraging all the best practice of all the top consumer uh

product building where we know how scarce attention is uh during onboarding, how quickly people can drop uh and how easy we have to make that. So

we're able to get people to experience the core value of the product quite fast on their own data by doing one uh a really good website scrapper. So we're

able to extract all the information about their business prefill that AI receptionist during on boarding. So when

you finish the on boarding, you're actually having your first conversation with the air receptionist that already has data uh on your on your business and can already answer quite a bunch of question as if you were a customer. And

the second >> you just add your website and besides scrapes all the information for you that's publicly available and uses that to build the bot.

>> Exactly. Yeah.

>> Exactly.

>> Yeah.

And then uh and then we call forward your phone to beside meaning that your existing phone number that you've already adopted uh actually redirects uh

to beside. So that's sort of like you're

to beside. So that's sort of like you're going to have all of your next calls within the app. You're going to discover the transcriber. You're going to

the transcriber. You're going to discover uh the the call summary. You're

going to see all these things uh from there. So these are the the the the two

there. So these are the the the the two tricks that leads to adoption uh in the easiest possible way in discovering the the core value pro of the product.

>> I was going to say does this force you to be a green bubble though Max? I don't

know if you could put a price on that in terms of the uh the barriers to entry and retention.

>> Yeah, we're a green bubble. It's a green bubble world. There is no um blue bubble

bubble world. There is no um blue bubble royalty potential in this. And we talked about it earlier. I remember you you made you made me freak out with that

blue bubble world early in the company.

Uh turns out it's actually fine. People

are okay. I haven't received a support message on the blue bubble. Well, how

much of the real economy? I mean, I bet you the ratio is quite different for Android verse iPhone. So who the people getting into the product are often the business owners. They're all on iPhones,

business owners. They're all on iPhones, but we had to build Android because the moment they want to invite the team, uh you you enter that like 50/50 split

where it's Android uh iOS 50/50. Yeah.

>> So if I use beside, if I really use it, I am not sending blue bubbles anymore.

>> You're sending green bubbles.

>> Okay. Interesting.

>> I think the idea though is that it would be like your work number, right? I mean,

how do you handle those different phone numbers, Max? I mean, is do do you think

numbers, Max? I mean, is do do you think the idea is that this just becomes your one phone number over time? And beside

is your phone app, your messages app, your uh MVNO carrier. Is that kind of the vision? The people who adopt it

the vision? The people who adopt it already had adopted their phone number as their business number. So, their life is kind of like uh spread across, you know, business context and personal

context in the product. um they do like to see that they can have that they can have multiple phone numbers in the product. So they will actually separate

product. So they will actually separate the two within the product or just adopt the beside number and keep theirs at the OS level uh and play with that. the the

closest competition when you think about it is uh Meta and WhatsApp for business because in many ways this is what uh uh Facebook or Meta is pushing actually

with WhatsApp for business and those interaction are there so when I think about the the big tech players uh it's more more than it is Google more than it

is uh Apple uh the real competition is actually uh WhatsApp for business uh because the adoption of WhatsApp for business is huge and they're really good at bringing AI into the product and it's

quite uh used. Um the thing there is people are still searching for businesses on Google and they're still using phone numbers. Google is not

pushing uh for WhatsApp numbers there.

So you still have 50% of business communication happening over the phone and not on WhatsApp. Um but the at the at the product thinking level uh

WhatsApp for business is the closest that serve the same type of needs uh that our customers have.

>> I'm curious about the note takingaking aspect of this. That was the first thing that kind of came up when I when I downloaded your Mac app. I've got three apps in my doc that will do AI

note-taking for meetings. Uh Notion,

Granola, Chatbt. Uh and then Google Meet will do it. I was in a meeting the other day uh a Zoom where there were three individual AI note-taking apps in the call um from three different providers.

>> Uh it's super crowded. Is the way that you get into this and you have defensibility because you're actually replacing like the phone number and so if someone's going to buy into that concept, they're going to use you for

note-taking because you're playing that kind of game with with the context that you have that no one else has. I would

see it more from the the motion that we have on the go to market and who we have product market fit with today. So we're

actually on desktop not even interested in bringing our crowd and the crowd that we're bringing never heard about notion, never heard about granola. They have no

idea that these things even exist. They

never seen a call recorder before.

though sometimes uh you know half of their calls happen uh on on on Google meet because they're real estate agent and sometimes they have to show slides and they have to go through a deck and

they want the context of their conversation same as what they had on the phone to live inside the same product because if it's scattered among many tools not everything is connected

to their CRM not everything is updating uh the tools around the context is lost for their team so the lock in is uh the context and then the defensibility is

just that we're going after a type of audience that is absolutely not the one of the other winners. So when you look at our product from the tech lens, it's

another competitor to granola, another competitor to notion recorder. But if

you look at it from the motion of who is actually adopting that product on Mac OS, the audience is actually completely different.

>> Just say Alex, it's not for you. It's

not for you, Alex. If you're not a member of the real economy, you just sit there in a puffy vest and tweet and write on Substack. Not for you. Sorry,

buddy.

>> Which is great. They've done like Granola is an amazing product.

>> Well, so another another technical thing that a lot of these services have in common that you'll really need to succeed at is memory. I feel like it's

kind of fake when companies say today that they understand everything that you've ever said and do with the context windows being where they are still inherently limited. What are you seeing

inherently limited. What are you seeing with that and and how are you trying to build better memory systems?

>> Yeah, so that's a use case that we discovered is not uh used uh by our users. um they don't prompt their brain

users. um they don't prompt their brain or they don't prompt their context uh as much as we uh would um because we're

probably using it to for creative outputs or to write something or to communicate for them. The accuracy that really matter is uh the call summary. it

is the uh ability to take the right action in their CRM sharing the context with their team and they have very

little uh use case for the uh prompting the AI or what they want to do is like edit their settings or like share something to someone or us doing a call

for them but less so asking specific question about the memory. I do think it is something we need to solve because as we expand I don't think we're going to

stay limited to the real economy. There

is more we want to do and we we want to go beyond that uh >> to the fake economy.

>> To the to to our fake economy I want to break into our tech bubble. Uh

I don't you know it is it is part of the it is part of the American dream to get there. uh but but but I think the way

there. uh but but but I think the way for us and the way we've we've thought about it is that many of the note takers are basically storage of notes and

information and they are made to be prompted because that's the only value you can get out of them today. Um we

only wonder based on that context what are the actions we can automatically take for you. uh how do we make that context very much alive uh in your experience in your operating system if

we're going to meet again uh in a week uh I want to have a a a clear meeting prep note based on our past conversation if I committed to sharing a doc with you

I want this doc to have been shared automatically by the AI and I think the live context of conversation when you when you start thinking about it not in terms of like storage of notes but what

you can actually take in terms of action on behalf of the users from the context you've captured and what are the things that you can start automating in these workflows and the value you can deliver

I think you start going away from uh you know a an only uh notes and prompting the notes world to the missing context

to feel closer to AGI >> what about on the customer's side though when they're asking a priest power user questions about the Bible. I mean, if you want to put the whole Bible in

there, why not? But can your product search for it? I mean, I feel like that's something I'm still not seeing like with any AI products reliably is actually being able to search for

information um in a way that works.

>> Yeah. So I think when they input some of these things uh it knows that they exist but then it relies on the on the model itself having in memory all of that we

don't have a tool calling that would search the web for example uh on the AI reception is that is not something uh that we've that we've built. I'm not

sure we'll ever build it or that will actually be a clear need. So when people go off what's in the knowledge of the air receptionist, I think it just falls

back to the to the model uh knowledge and the model training data.

>> Yeah, I feel like this use case in particular is just so helpful uh for folks like the ones that you've heroed.

Um people who are not as good notetakers as reporters like Alex and I and just need to remember all this stuff. Um, but I mean

is there some limit to like how far back you can go memory-wise with like your calls, asking things from the past? What

are some insights that all my customers are telling me? Things like that that really rely on like a huge data set to help move the business forward or is that not really on the table yet?

>> No, I think like that that's the evolution from where we're at to to where we're going. And there I think until it's fully ready.

>> So that may be thousands and thousands of calls, right?

>> Yeah. Well, there I think you you enter more custom prompting rag building and you're actually probably building the

product around the limitation of the uh of the memory or of the model. And as

you build that or as you invest there, you know, it's just going to be solved six months, 12 months from now from the from the model itself. So that's the way we approach it is that there are some

things where we are wondering if we should invest time into building because they might just self uh solve itself.

>> Yeah.

>> How do you think about that? Isn't it?

Yeah. A lot of people are going through that right now and thinking about, you know, that and how do you build a company for AGI if that's going to happen or just the models being able to

replicate your company potentially.

>> Yeah. Um

what I'm excited I think uh because what if if we get there what it means is absolutely uh amazing and the the

technological progress we would have made uh I I am very grateful and lucky to be alive at that time and in the

industry uh on the field because that's the most exciting of times in my opinion. Um but beyond that the way the

opinion. Um but beyond that the way the importance of unique context that you need to capture. So there are context that you're going to be able to capture through an API. There is context that

you'll be able to capture because you can build a Mac OS recorder like everyone is doing. Um but then there's going to be unique highly valuable

context. uh the phone context is

context. uh the phone context is particularly uh valuable because what you need to do to capture phone conversation is extremely hard to me the

only defensibility as you go is going to be um for us the consumer grade experience because if you don't have

that DNA built into the team and if you were coming from the B2B world or the SAS world it's going to be extremely hard to rewire your brain uh to consumer product design, product building and

product distribution. The other part is

product distribution. The other part is uh finding the the the the right uh uh data that other players are not going to

be uh are not going to easily capture uh which for us is the phone.

>> One of the questions we'd like to ask as you're thinking about the future is what do you optimize for? Um, I know you can look at any number of things from call

length, call volume, how many questions people are asking, their conversion uh with customers, how many call backs, >> a conversion to a religion.

>> Yeah, conversion to a religion. You

could be the first. Uh, what are you optimizing for?

>> Accuracy of actions we can take. Did

your customer get a great uh interaction with the voicemail receptionist? Are we

able to properly book in your calendar the call that they ask? Uh when you come back to the to the product, you read a past conversation. Does the summary look

past conversation. Does the summary look accurate? So the value of the product

accurate? So the value of the product becomes extremely passive as we go. So

what really matter is that we're able to measure the accuracy of the action we take uh on your behalf as a user and get as close to 100% as possible on as many uh as we can.

>> Yeah. Speaking of those actions, I mean, it just makes me think a lot of those actions were for many people taken by humans in the past, whether it's, you know, a scheduler, uh, whether it's at a

hair salon or or a car dealership or otherwise. Uh, serving the real economy,

otherwise. Uh, serving the real economy, growing up in the real economy. I think

you know where I'm going with this.

What's your latest thinking about, you know, the jobs being lost, replaced, uh, changing for for these people?

What we've seen so far is that we were more coming as a help to people who are already very busy and could not actually

uh delegate uh to someone. I don't think we've entered a place where we've replaced anyone. What I see is we

replaced anyone. What I see is we deliver value for a lot of people where they can actually offer better humanto

human experience. If you ever been to

human experience. If you ever been to this super high luxury hotel where they have concier, you give your name once, you give your preferences once and

that's it. You won't have to repeat

that's it. You won't have to repeat yourself and you will just like flow through your experience. I think that's the beauty of what we can offer. People

feel more cared for. Uh the interactions become more meaningful and there's really beauty in that because as a human you can't actually do that if you don't have some machine help. So, one more

question for you, Max, before we let you go. Um, who do you think has the best

go. Um, who do you think has the best taste in tech right now?

>> It's a good question. Um, and don't say Johnny IV boat lamp.

>> Nope. Um, it could be Jack Dorsey to be honest. Like, I really love his uh

honest. Like, I really love his uh latest. And then there's Antoan, you

latest. And then there's Antoan, you know, Antoan Martan from AMU. like he's

probably, >> you know, the the taste goat of of consumer.

>> Well, we don't talk about Jack nearly enough. What's Jack doing, right, that

enough. What's Jack doing, right, that you see?

>> Uh, he's very he's still focused on Square. He's also big on Bitcoin at the

Square. He's also big on Bitcoin at the moment. He also built a messaging app uh

moment. He also built a messaging app uh that works uh with Bluetooth devices.

And I really enjoy how he always comes down to like at some point he does all these big things and just like comes back and code himself a little app and like start a movement with it. I just

find it really cool that he just gets down to this like low level in the arena and just restart from scratch and seems to be excited about it. Um yeah, I find this to be inspiring.

>> Some people think he's Satoshi. Have you

heard that, Max?

>> That he is Satoshi? No [ __ ] way.

>> Yeah.

>> No way.

>> That's a rumor.

>> No way.

>> All right. Well, let's leave it there.

Max, thank you so much for coming on Access. Uh, we'll chat soon.

Access. Uh, we'll chat soon.

>> Chat soon.

>> Nice to meet you, Max.

>> Thank you, guys.

>> Thanks to Max for coming on this show.

>> Oh my god, that's what I was going to do. We are a new show, so please follow,

do. We are a new show, so please follow, like, subscribe everywhere you get the podcasts. You could also find us in

podcasts. You could also find us in video via Access Pod on YouTube.

>> If you like this episode, please subscribe, leave a fivestar review. A

great review, a glowing review, a thumbs up, share it with a friend, even better.

>> And you can find me at hamburger on Twitter and at meaning.com. He did give us permission to do this, right, Alex?

>> I'm I'm uh you can find me uh at sources.news, my newsletter on Substack.

sources.news, my newsletter on Substack.

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