The Best Vibe Coding Tools in 2025

Mickey, by the end of this episode, what

are we going to learn?

>> We're going to know what's the best,

what's the worst, what to use, what not

to use. And this is just our

non-professional professional opinion.

>> Okay. So, this is the definitive guide

to vibe coding apps, right?

>> Yes. This is the ultimate tier list. And

if this offends you, I apologize in

advance.

>> Okay. Any disclosures? Are you involved

in any of these companies?

>> Um

um

>> wait wait wait to the end.

>> I'm actually no I'm not an investor in

any. Um I do have a bias but I'll

explain later the bias as we go on.

>> Sounds good. I invested in Bolt in the

last round.

>> Actually funny story. I had the

opportunity to invest in lovable but

>> we both did.

>> Yeah. But they hit me at a time where I

was like I never have done I still

haven't but like I was like I don't know

what this is. Vive coding and then yeah

they raised what some hundred billion at

a six billion2 billion dollar valuation

so

>> crazy

>> yeah you win some you lose some

>> all right so let's get into it

>> okay so lovable vzero bolt cloud code

cursor codeex wind surf vibe code roor

let's just hit right out the hip what's

dtier

>> I mean

I see I see you touching windfur

>> okay so I don't think wind surf is dtier

here in terms of like tech, but with

what happened with the team and like the

founder sort of dipping and then Devon

came scooped them up. It's one of those

where like I'm sure the tech's good, but

like is there any trust anymore? And I

know two guys who work at Windsurf,

awesome dudes, but I probably would

never use Windsurf ever again. And

respectfully, in the kindest of fashion,

I would put it Dtier.

>> By the way, all these tools are amazing.

>> Yeah, they're great. they do with you

know like again this is our

non-professional professional opinion

right I just personally wouldn't use

wind surf uh simply for the fact that

like again you know you you are sort of

trusting the team behind said tool

you're building with right and when I

mean you're a founder like imagine just

upping and leaving like the type of

confidence that instills with your users

investors and all that type of stuff so

yeah I would respectfully u put wind

surf at Dtier

>> it's also very technical Right.

>> Yes. Yes. So, and that's one thing too

like we have this chart here and I would

put wind surf at a very technical like

you would have to be a technical person

to get the best out of it. Now you have

people who like Riley and others who are

you know using these technical tools but

if you speak to the team at Windsurf or

even Curser they'll tell you yeah we're

building for developers right their

focus is developers. I actually spoke to

someone who works at Cursor and I told

him like, you know, a lot of like

non-technical people are using your

tools, so is that like changing how you

guys build and like is that like sort

of, you know, affecting your decisions?

And he straight up was like, no. He's

like, we're building for developers.

He's like, it's cool to see

non-developers use it, but the main

demographic is developers, and from a

team perspective and a business

perspective, it makes sense, right? So,

you could do it, but I just wouldn't use

Windsurf. So, I put it Dtier.

>> Okay. Okay. So, you're you're putting a

D tier just because of the sort of how

it played out.

>> Yeah. Like realistically, I would maybe

it would be between an A and a B for me.

U cuz I used to I used Winter for a bit.

It was pretty cool.

>> Um and I if based on how it was back

then, if I were to rate it, it'd be

between an A and a B. Okay.

>> So, but with all the business stuff

putting it

>> Yeah, I'm putting it in a D just cuz

it's pretty complicated.

>> Okay. Well, then let's talk about

another complicated tool, cursor.

>> Okay. I mean, to me, okay, I'll do this

one. To me, I'm going to give it.

It's either A tier or S tier. For me,

well, so first, let's define it on the

chart. It's definitely like you have to

be technical to use it, right? Like

being able to even open it up and fork a

repo, npm run, npm install. Um, like

these are like I don't expect a

non-technical person to use it, but um,

you know, if there's a will, there's a

way. And I've seen people use it. So I

agree if you are a vibe coder and

non-technical person, you're going to

experience pain. True. But what I will

say about cursor versus windsurf,

there's a lot more tutorials on cursor.

>> So

>> and and and that's one thing like so

>> and a bigger community around cursor.

>> Fair. And and and I'll I'll give you an

example in like the webdev world like

there are people who are prox.js and

anti-nex.js. JS and one of the biggest

pros to Nex.js JS you know people can

argue technicalities is the community

right especially even with react like

let's go one level down react there are

people who love react who hate react and

the reason reacts one is because the

community is so huge right so there's a

lot of support there's a lot of

documentation there are a lot of

external packages that's why you go to

any of these tools and you ask it make

me a website it's going to use react

right even the LLMs have picked it right

so I I think that matters and for the

audience sake I'll give cursor an A

tier. I I can agree with that. But to

me, this is like S+.

>> Mhm. Okay, cool. Sam Alman, the

co-founder of OpenAI, just said that it

is the era of the idea guy, and he is

not wrong. I think that right now is an

incredible time to be building a

startup. And if you listen to this

podcast, chances are you think so, too.

Now, I think that you can look at trends

uh to basically figure out uh what are

the startup ideas you should be

building. So that's exactly why I built

ideas browser.com. Every single day

you're going to get a free startup idea

in your inbox and it's all backed by

high quality data trends. How we do it?

People always ask. We use AI agents to

go and search what are people looking

for and what are they screaming for in

terms of products that you should be

building and then we hand it on a you

know silver platter for you to go check

out. Um, we do have a few paid plans

that, you know, take it to the next

level. Uh, give you more ideas, give you

more AI agents and more almost like a

chat GBT for ideas with it, but you can

start for free ideabrowser.com. And if

you're listening to this, I highly

recommend it. What's next? Lovable.

Lovable cloud. Lovable AI. So, I will

>> So, explain what that is because not

everyone

>> Yeah. So basically the the pain point

with lovable and bolt was really the

integrations right you would need a

backend and it was really difficult

right you had to sign up and then you

had to connect and copy API keys again

these are trivial things to a developer

to a non-developer this is a headache

and what they've done from my

understanding is they've abstracted all

this stuff away so the moment you boot

up a loable project I'm assuming they

call APIs and they fetch all that

information for you which makes it

easier

But I still have found people

running to the claw codes and the

codeexes and the cursors. So I will give

lovable a B.

>> How do you feel?

Um, I I understand why you're giving it

a B, you know, cuz you look at it from

an engineering perspective and you're

probably like, well, if I'm going to go

and create a product, you know, yeah,

maybe lovable is something I can get,

you know, get going,

>> a pretty page. But, um, I mean, from a

prototyping perspective, if you know,

>> I'll give you this. I think Vzero is

better than lovable.

Why do you say that?

>> Um, Verscell's marketplace like their

integrations, it gives you plethora of

options, right? So, with for with

Lovable, for example, they've sort of

picked what backend you're going to use.

It's superb, right? And there's pros and

cons to that. Like the depending on the

type of apps you're going to build,

there's pros and cons to it. With

Versel, you have all the type all

different types of uh whatchamacallit

backends. And here's where the bias

comes in. Convix is going to be on the

Versell marketplace soon. And I think

Convix is the best market, best back

end. And the reason why there's bias is

because I work there now.

Just full disclosure, cuz people going

to be like, "Oh, he's talking about it

cuz he works there." Well, I started

working there cuz I like the product.

>> Homie didn't look at the camera once

until he started saying comx. Said the

word convex and he was like,

>> "Come

>> cuz the number one."

>> I'm PR trained.

But um I personally think and I've for

example um I had my wedding not too long

ago and I tried using all the AI tools

to build like our RSVP site and at some

point all of them bricked except V 0. So

even if I were just to like vibe code

and just go through it, I personally

think out of the VZ bolt and lovable I

would pick V0. There's also templates

and components that you can reuse with

Vzero.

>> Yes. Yes. And just like the integration

with Versell, it's one of those things

too where I I know this probably doesn't

matter to a tier list, but I also sort

of think about like the future of the PL

like the the the tool we're using. And

it's like it seems like Versel and Vzero

are going to be very tight-knit. And

that's like a bet I'm willing to make if

I'm building a product that I want users

to use. So, are you giving V 0 S tier?

Is that what I'm hearing?

>> If I was a vibe vibe coder, like let's

say I did not know how to write code, I

would maybe right there. I don't I don't

think I'd give it like a Can we do an in

between?

>> Okay. So, I'll do it in in between. And

this is definitely non uh technical

friendly. Lovable, of course, is here as

well.

>> You sort of disagreed with lovable being

a B tier, so we're

>> No, no. Do you think it's A?

>> I can give you like an A between B.

>> That's what I think it really is.

>> Okay. I'll give you an A between B.

>> That's what I think it is.

>> Bolt. I I I would put them on par with

lovable.

>> Yeah.

>> Okay. Yeah. Fair. See, not a biased

investor. I respect that.

>> Um,

ROR. I personally haven't used ROR, so I

will trust your judgment. I know they do

mobile apps,

>> right? So, there's this new class of

vibe coding apps for literal mobile

apps, and that's Vibe Code App

>> uh by Riley, our friend Riley.

>> Riley.

>> Yeah. And ROR.

>> Yes.

>> Um

I

haven't played with both of them

extensively, but played with them enough

to know that um Vibe Code app is it

really is the lovable for mobile apps.

Um I find the Oh, actually there's also

anything.

>> Yes, I have seen anything. I maybe did

one prompt and then I stopped just

because I don't really do a lot of

mobile app stuff, but I I I have

realized and even um at Convex there's a

lot of like these mobile app vibe coding

platforms that are popping up. So this

seems to be the

>> and for a reason, right? Like I think

that there's a lot of opportunity to to

make money building apps for

>> So you think mobile app like if I wanted

to let's say I wanted to launch a

consumer product you think you think

mobile is better than web?

>> I don't think it's better. I think it

depends what you're building. I I just

think that right now there's

>> there's just a lot of opport you know

you're seeing the calis of the world

making millions of dollars a month with

relatively simple apps with AI baked in.

So, I think that there's going to be a

lot of people who want to build

something similar in different niches.

And that's why I think that right now

I'm actually coming up with a lot of

mobile app ideas. And that's why

>> Yeah.

>> You see, maybe I'm just thinking too

like I'm too much in my developer mind,

but it to me it feels like downloading

an app feels like too much commitment

for me. Like I would really need a

reason to download an app. But it seems

like people are just downloading apps.

Like they'll watch a Tik Tok video and

they're like, "Yeah, I want to check

this out." So, am I wrong or is like why

the push for apps? Because everyone's

doing an app now, a consumer app.

>> Um, I think uh I'm the same way to be

honest.

>> Like it to me just feels like a lot of

commitment.

>> Yeah, it is a commitment. It is a

commitment. But like if you are

suffering from back pain and you're on

TikTok and you searched, you know, back

pain for tall people and then you see

this ad that is just, hey, are you tall?

And say, as a matter of fact, I'm 6' 3.

Um, you know, well, we have this AI that

helps you like reduce back pain by 35%.

In this, you know, we become your back

pain coach,

>> you know, do you want to download this?

And it gets me at that moment. I'm I

might I might I might download it.

>> And I I find that and like observing my

wife has helped me realize social

trends. People use Tik Tok like a search

engine.

>> Yes.

>> So that that makes sense. So where do we

put Vibe Code Ro anything if you've used

anything?

>> Um I think we can put them

right be below lovable and bolt.

>> So Btier solid.

>> Btier solid. I think that

you can use any of those and you know

maybe one of them is slightly better on

the day or slightly worse on the day

>> but I think that they though what's

going to happen I think is those are

it's so relatively new like I think Ror

launched like a couple months ago by

code

>> app I also remembered another one my boy

Seth is a zero which is a mobile app one

as well so yeah I think like to your

point I haven't tested any of them one

to give a definitive opinion But they're

all fairly new and it's exciting stuff

and I'm sure they have free tier so max

it out.

>> I think they're going to get better too

over time, right? Do you know are they

all built on expo?

>> Um yes. I think from my understanding um

I know Ror is. I'm pretty sure they are.

Um it would be foolish for them to not

be cuz you would want your app to be on

both um Android and and you know App

Store. And if you're doing a Swift app,

then you're going to have to do the

Google Play version. And that's two

different code bases. So it would make

sense for them to use Expo. And again,

the ecosystem is growing. React is

growing. There's a lot of money behind

it. So I would think that they're all

built on Expo.

>> Cool.

>> So that and here's the funny part. All

these guys are probably using the same

model underneath the hood. It's either

going to be Claude or it's going to be

Codeex, which is gaining a lot of hype.

I'm interested to hear what you think

about Codeex.

>> I mean, you're the front-end developer.

>> Um,

>> little higher, I think.

>> Little higher. Yes. So, I I seen a lot

of hype with GPT5's codeex model, and I

used it in cursor. It was okay. Like, it

was pretty good, but I still think clot

sonet 45 is the best coding model uh

right now. So I would put codeex like

right below cursor but above lovable and

bolt.

>> Mhm. And for non-technical people like

should they be using codeex?

>> Yes. Codeex does have like a web

version. I would put it like somewhere

around here. And there's to your point

to like a cursor. There are a lot of

videos on codecs cuz they seem to have

gone both developer and non-developer

attention. you can use like OpenAI's

web-based cloud platform uh to run

codec. So, I would put it like somewhere

around here.

>> Yeah,

>> I still think there's a little feat like

there's a little difficulty to it if

you're non-technical, but where there's

a will, there's a way.

>> My take on Codeex is it's a bit Yeah,

it's a little worse than Cursor, but

it's gains like the most um most

improved award.

>> Yes, 100%. cuz it sucked in the

beginning and like now people are

comparing it to Claude like Claude Coat.

So they've definitely Sam's cooking.

>> Sam's cooking and I wouldn't bet against

them.

>> No. No. They have trillions of dollars

or whatever but billions like

>> Well, it's important, right? Cuz if

you're going to pick something you right

>> 100% right, you don't want to be wind

surfed. Um

>> I'm not mean. I swear

>> I'm actually a nice guy. Yeah,

>> I skip it. I couldn't help it.

>> Yeah.

>> Um, Cloud Code.

>> Okay. All right. What do you think?

>> I think Cursor's King, man.

>> Wow.

>> Cloud Code got nerfed.

>> Cloud Code recently has got nerfed. Yes.

Like if this was

>> 4 weeks ago,

it'd be like this. Like Cloud Code would

be above S tier. But like now, like I

don't know what's happening. Like I

rather like it'll use the same model

Claude Sonic 45. I'll get better results

with it on cursor than with on cloud

code. And the reason being is a lot of

people think like, oh, if they're using

the same model, it's the same output.

But

>> really, the difference maker is like,

yes, everyone's using the same model,

but then you build the agent on top. And

basically what that means is like when

you tell um when you prompt, hey, fix

this error, right? The LLM doesn't have

the power to read a file. You have to

give it a tool that gives it the ability

to read a file and then it reads that

code and then it gives you the output

and now you have to give it a tool to

write that code, right? So it seems to

me cursor's agent which is built on top

of cloud code that gives it the ability

to read, write, edit and all that type

of stuff might actually be better than

cloud cloud code cloud code, right? So I

I think this is going to be a tugof-war,

right? Like where cloud code will be

better at one point, then cursor, then

cloud code, then cursor, right? But as a

non-technical person, um, if I if I

would be frank, if I was a non-technical

person, Cursor would be here, Claude

Code would be here, and this would be

the tier list.

>> We're missing one

one company here.

>> Who?

>> Replet.

>> Are you an investor in Replet?

>> No, I'm not an investor.

>> Okay, I'm going to I'm going to ask a

serious question. I don't know anyone

who's used Replet.

>> Mhm.

>> But they're winning.

I'm not even trying to be funny.

>> Like I actually don't know a single soul

who's used Replet. The one time I used

Replet was back when

>> I like this is like 3 years ago, four

years ago.

>> Yeah.

>> And I needed to run some sort of like

file, some Python script.

>> So who uses Replet?

>> I mean, I know two people who use

Replet.

>> Okay, so they're winning then. Okay,

makes sense.

>> Yeah.

>> I don't know where I'd put Replet. I've

never built anything fully with it.

People seem to love it. They raised a

bajillion dollars as well. Um, so I'll

trust your discretion.

>> I mean, they've I from what I

understand, they have two

modes with Replet. So, they have like

your vibe code mode and then they have

agent mode. So, you prompt it and it

takes like 15 or 20 minutes and it goes

and builds your app in instead of one

minute or two minutes, which is cool.

Um that

>> and so they built their own agent. Are

they using like their own model? like

are they developing their own models or

>> I'm not sure like if they're developing

their own models. It's hard to like say,

right?

>> Um but I have seen you know my friend

Billy Howell actually uh talks a lot

about Replet and I've seen some of the

output on it and it's pretty impressive.

Um

>> so you're giving it an A?

>> I'm giving it I'm putting it like

lovable bolt replet. Yeah. So okay. So

this is fair. So, we have V0ero close to

in my opinion maybe a little in the A

tier, but like if I was a vibe coder,

I'd go for V 0. Codeex, Lovable Bolt.

Actually, can I add one more?

>> Yeah.

>> Have you heard of Chef?

>> No.

>> Chef was actually built by Convex.

But what's funny is the reason Chef was

built and we built Chef was to show vibe

coding platforms that if you use Convex

as your backend, it's better. So we

didn't build it to compete. One or two

people worked on Chef and it's actually

pretty good. Like off rip you'll get and

I won't cuz people be like, "Oh, you're

being biased." So I won't even show you

could check it out. It's free. So Chef

isn't meant to compete, but it was more

so of a showcase for tools to use Convex

as their back end. And a lot of the new

tools like you have Vi, you have Bloom,

like a lot of the new vibe coding

platforms are all built on Convex

because they saw this and they're like,

"Oh, and we open source the repo too.

Anyone can fork and build a vibe coding

platform." And I non-bias would put Chef

along these lines. The only thing is

again, we're not trying to compete. So

at some point these tools would get

better. I like for example, I don't

think there's a way for you to assign a

domain on Chef, right? So, wasn't meant

to impress users, but more so developers

who are building these tools. Um, but

yeah, I think I'm I'm pretty happy with

this list.

>> Okay. So, just to wrap this up, what

advice do you have for non-technical

people and technical people if they're

trying to choose a vibe coding platform?

>> Yeah. So, if you're technical, then man,

it's like cursor or cloud code. like

there's there's no other option in my

opinion and that's simply because you're

probably going to be steering the wheel

anyway so you're not going to be vibe

vibe coding. I know there's like uh open

code by my uncle Dax. Um I haven't used

it. Sorry. I should uh I hear a lot of

developers talk uh you know highly of

it. So like you're probably using one of

these tools and you're probably steering

the ship, right? So no advice to you.

Just do what you're supposed to do. Now

to nontechnical people um I think uh

there has to be I've noticed after last

couple months with all the new tools and

all that stuff happening there has to be

a mindset shift and the mindset shift is

a lot of people get frustrated if in

five prompts they don't build something

and it's like respectfully the audacity

to think you're going to build software

that's fully functional that people are

going to use and care about borderline

pay you money I don't want to crash out

and you think you could do it in five,

six prompts when you know it takes time,

it takes planning, it takes testing.

There's alpha, there's beta, then

there's a final version and then like

software is art and you know, thank the

Lord that there are tools that allow the

non-technical person to build stuff, but

we need audacity. We we need to treat it

with care. Um, your first version

doesn't work. You used, you know, you

used lovable and it broke. Okay, so

what? you'll use another tool and try

again. Right? I think there needs to be

a shift in understanding that software

is difficult, websites are easy, you

know, landing pages are easy, but

software is difficult, especially ones

people actually pay for, right? So, when

we enter this mindset where like, okay,

I'm going to build something. It's going

to be awesome. It's going to take me

time cuz I'm going to make it awesome.

Then we'll be okay. But I'll see people

be like, yeah, I prompted 10 times and

it broke.

Welcome to software development.

So that's the one thing I would see like

there are a lot of cool tutorials. I

mean you bring up a lot of awesome

people that show people like the mindset

you know planning uh cursor has this one

thing called plan mode which is pretty

awesome and all that stuff is great and

there's even tools that allow you to

plan now and you know Chad GBT5 is great

if you want to like just go back and

forth and brainstorm.

It's more about mindset now. A lot of

non-technical people fail to realize

that it really takes time to build

something awesome. It's like building a

business, right? Or if you're a gym,

bro, it's like going to the gym. You

know, great things take time. They take

patient, take calculation. There's

mistakes. Mistakes lead to experience.

Experience leads to you being a better

builder. So, take time and enjoy the

ride. There you go. Well said. I want to

say one last thing to end. Uh my

recommendation to people is actually to

follow all the founders of these

businesses. So Vzero, Gummo, Codex, M

Alman, Lovable Anton, Bolt is uh Eric,

Eric Simons Replet Amjad etc. etc.

Follow them and then see who you believe

in. Like if you really connect with

Eric, if you really connect with Amjad,

if you really connect with Sam Alman,

like then pick that platform

>> facts cuz you are betting on someone.

You're betting on a company, right? And

this is why again like people who bet on

wind surf got wind surfed.

>> Yeah.

>> God bless him. All right, that's the

episode. Um Mickey, thanks for coming

on.

>> Greg, I appreciate you, man. It's been

uh it's been a fun year.

>> It's been a fun year. You've had a busy

year. I'm going to include links to

follow you. I know you're getting to

100,000 subscribers on YouTube, so we're

trying. We're trying.

>> Uh we'll we'll include that there. And

and uh see you next time.

>> Appreciate you, bro. Thank you again.

Later.