The Comms Strategist Behind Anduril, Shopify & Cognition | Lulu Cheng Meservey

So you were born in China yet you speak Norwegian. Can you explain what occurred

Norwegian. Can you explain what occurred in your life between these two points?

Yes. I was born in rural China. I was

born in a little village where I think um my mom didn't even know whether I would come out a boy or a girl or in 6 months or 12 months or there was very little knowledge. And so I emerged and

little knowledge. And so I emerged and we were able to leave China because my father was sent to Germany to get his PhD in astrophysics. I think at that time the number of people who wanted to

leave China far exceeded the number of people who were allowed to. So

technically we were supposed to stay behind as a kind of collateral to make sure that he came back. However, dot dot dot we end up settling in Germany. My

mom and I actually do go to join my father at the University of H Highleberg where he was getting uh his PhD and we started moving around to different universities where he would study at

like University of X to work at the observatory and so University of Oslo is one of the places where he uh was sent to work on astrophysics and that's where

I did a lot of my growing up went to public school and I just became a little bit Norwegian. How many different

bit Norwegian. How many different countries did you live in then?

Yeah, I grew up in uh China, then Germany, Norway, Canada, at which point we were able to become Canadian citizens, which was very exciting and welcoming for us. And then grand slam,

big dream, the United States. So I came to the US for college, been here ever since, and a few years ago naturalized in the first Trump administration, which was very exciting for me.

How long did you know that you wanted to come to America? Was it just for school or did you think no, I'm going to live here after?

No, I just wanted to live and be here and be American. It was a dream that was sort of inherited from my father. If he

hadn't gone to Germany, he would have tried to go to the US. In fact, the only reason he couldn't was because it was like overs subscribed as a destination at the time. So, we've had kind of a multigenerational dream to come to the

US. And what I'm doing now feels like

US. And what I'm doing now feels like the culmination of multiple generations of work. I consider you a very singular

of work. I consider you a very singular like player on the board. I don't know anybody else that has a business like yours. You do the comms for some of the

yours. You do the comms for some of the greatest tech founders in the world. You

have anywhere, you know, from like 10, let's say 10 to 12 clients at a time, but you have a weight list of, you know, a thousand companies that want to work with you. A

with you. A little less.

Yeah, a little less that that want to work with you. But it's always like the elite of the elite. And a few of these people have been on the show, for example, and I've talked to them uh in private about you. So, it's an unlikely

story. I happen to know this because we

story. I happen to know this because we spent a bunch of time together the last year and a half, but can you explain?

Okay, you go to college. What do you think you were going to do when you were in school?

I did not know what to do. You and I have talked about friends of ours who've known maybe from an early age that they wanted to go in a certain direction. I

did not know. And I think because the thing that I'm doing actually has not existed until I started doing it. And

there are many other things like this out there that don't exist until someone starts doing it. So, I think there's a lesson there. But what I really was

lesson there. But what I really was forced to do and then enjoyed doing was some version of super duper reading the room and then figuring out how to become

and speak as someone that the room would accept. And as a kid moving around and

accept. And as a kid moving around and always being the weird kid with the weird accent and the weird clothes. It's

a it's a forced almost survival mechanism. I'll tell you a story about

mechanism. I'll tell you a story about uh in Norway in a second how I learned this. And when I got to Canada, I

this. And when I got to Canada, I actually learned English from a book called English. [laughter]

called English. [laughter] It literally was like a green and blue book. I could I could picture it looked

book. I could I could picture it looked like a Greyhound bus seat type of design called English. I read it and I was like

called English. I read it and I was like Neo waking up from the Matrix. I was

like, I know English.

I thought I knew English. I actually did not because English there's like the book English and then there's the how people actually use it English. So, while I was in

college, I did uh an interview with BCG or something that the career office funnels you towards. And thank goodness I did not get this role. But part of the reason I didn't get the role was they

asked me if I had any experience doing something. And I said, "Yeah, I I have

something. And I said, "Yeah, I I have quite a bit of experience below the belt." [laughter]

belt." [laughter] And the difference between below the belt and under my belt is in some ways almost nothing and in other ways like in

that interview everything.

And so even now I feel like I'm still learning to speak English and adapt and to and to think about the fine textures of words and meanings in every different setting.

So wait, explain the connection between what you do in comms now with have jumping around from culture to culture.

You said you have a story about this.

When you were I'll tell you the story.

I'm in Norway and I'm just desperately trying to fit in and be a normal kid.

When you when you get to um the public schools in Oslo, they have something called mutaken, which is like welcome class. So, it's like a transition

class. So, it's like a transition halfway house for immigrants who can't speak Norwegian. And once they think

speak Norwegian. And once they think you're ready enough, they transition you out. So, I'm in this classroom and it's

out. So, I'm in this classroom and it's uh like October and I'm trying to fit in. We had talked about Halloween.

in. We had talked about Halloween.

Halloween was coming up and in the US you wear your costume to school and you have a little parade and it's awesome.

In Norway they knew what this was. So I

show up to school in a full body rabbit costume and I mean it's got the gloves.

It's got a tail like everything and nobody else is wearing any costume whatsoever. So I'm the new It's like the

whatsoever. So I'm the new It's like the only thing worse than my normal clothes was a full body rabbit costume. I sat

there, you know, I had to hold my pencils like this like the whole day in class. And it just turned out that it

class. And it just turned out that it was not customary to wear these things to school. So, how would I have known

to school. So, how would I have known that from any of the conversations that I had had where people knew the date? I

thought we were all on the same page, guys. Like, it's October 31st. We talked

guys. Like, it's October 31st. We talked

about this. And it just wasn't a thing you did at school. So, the the takeaway is that there's a lot that is unspoken.

There's a lot of context that people just assume that you might have. And if

you think you do and you actually don't, it will be exposed in sometimes very dramatic ways.

Okay. So, let's like jump in what to exactly what you do today and why you think it is needed more than ever. If

I walk up to you, I didn't know you at all. And I say, "Hey, nice to meet you,

all. And I say, "Hey, nice to meet you, Lulu." What do you do? How do you

Lulu." What do you do? How do you describe what you do?

What I describe is I help founders build a movement to help their companies succeed.

If you are building like the seventh B2B SAS in a in a a pretty crowded category, I'm not sure that's the most relevant for you and it's not necessarily the

thing that brings me joy. But if you are building something like we've talked about and that it's sort of easy to talk about because it's such a perfect case study from the past but we've talked

about ramp or general matter or these you you need to build a movement of people to believe something counterintuitive because you are essentially creating something new that if it were obvious it would have been

done by virtue of it not being done. you

now have to break through all of the existing biases and rally people to you and these are people who have lots of great options that they have to say no

to to come join you on this quest and that is building a movement. So explain

the context of what was going on at the time in the country when you started working with Andre.

I had accidentally sort of become the co-founder of a communications firm and I didn't know what comms was and I didn't know what PR was.

Okay, you got to say more about that. If

you don't know what comms and PR is, how do you accidentally become the co-founder of this?

For grad school, I studied diplomacy within which I studied international security within which I studied counterinsurgency. So I really wanted to

counterinsurgency. So I really wanted to work in and for the government and and on security issues and I could not because I was not a citizen at the time.

So it was difficult. So I ended up in Washington DC doing what felt like a pretty close thing which was political risk. I.e. if uh Google is entering into

risk. I.e. if uh Google is entering into Egypt and there's a coup, what do you do? It's not a normal business

do? It's not a normal business situation. Or if Alibaba is having its

situation. Or if Alibaba is having its biggest IPO in the US, um the things that they have to overcome are not just normal business things. there's like

fears about China which to this day continue and many are warranted and um about data privacy and all these things.

Anyway, I was working on political risk and ended up partnering with the man who was helping Jack Ma run their IPO and he was

born and bred Texan, had worked in government, had now become um the head of corporate affairs for Alibaba.

After the successful IPO, he decided to start a firm and he asked me to go and do it with him, Jim Wilkinson, one someone that I consider a great mentor and teacher, took a bet on me. Someone

who has never done this before, and he said, "I think you can figure this out."

I didn't know if I agreed, but I went with him. And so, here I was, the

with him. And so, here I was, the co-founder and COO of a comms firm, and I was googling like, "What is PR?

[laughter] What is communications? What

is this?" And I would learn essentially by embarrassing myself. We would go into meetings and again credit to Jim for just throwing me into these situations,

but we would go into meetings with leaders of like Citadel and major serious operations. S&P Global, I would

serious operations. S&P Global, I would say things, sometimes they landed, other times somebody would pull me aside at the end of the meeting and be like, you know, maybe fewer like Power Rangers

references next time. May uh we had a meeting with GAP Inc. where um it was very clear that I didn't know what corporate communications was. I thought

it was like put on a sale, you know, summer sale and just learned the hard way by doing your clients in this case, they wanted like traditional PR. Correct.

Yes.

Which is not what you do at all today.

Currently, it's not what I do. When I

was learning traditional comms, it was very much wipe on, wipe off. What am I doing here? And I didn't have any

doing here? And I didn't have any credentials, you know, like I'm nobody.

Nobody would answer my emails. People

didn't want to deal with me. Reporters

didn't take me seriously as they probably should not have. So all

understandable.

But then I get to know Matt Steckman, now president of Andre, and Trey, chairman of Andre. We were all in DC at

the time. and uh Trey recommended me to

the time. and uh Trey recommended me to the team to handle their comps and they had talked to a bunch of people.

What was the state of their business when this is happening?

It was pretty early. It was in the first year of the company. Our company was founded around the same time as them. Of

course, our PR firm didn't become Andreal, but it was around the same age at that point. And they were in the process of defining what the company was. They had actually been in semi-

was. They had actually been in semi- stealth the whole time where there was the website and the website provided just enough fodder for all these conspiracy theories about what what is

Palmer doing but not enough information.

It wasn't like today where you do your launch moment and you have your cinematic launch video and it was just like the company existed and there was rumors and gossip about it but not fully

defined and they to their credit recognized that it was time to really define it. And you would compare their

define it. And you would compare their idea at this time in history to a counterinsurgency. Correct.

counterinsurgency. Correct.

I believe that they were very much like an insurgent. Okay. They were going

an insurgent. Okay. They were going Yeah. They had a smaller team than the

Yeah. They had a smaller team than the people that they were up against. Like

imagine Boeing or Rathon. Um they were going against the grain of their community. So especially in Silicon

community. So especially in Silicon Valley, it was super duper not cool to work with the government. that that's

when Google had employees walking out protesting any involvement in Project Maven with the DoD and they didn't have access to mainstream information

propagation networks. For example, the

propagation networks. For example, the media just hated Palmer. This was when he was kind of persona non grata in tech and mainstream for supporting Trump and

not supporting Hillary while he was at Facebook. So it was pretty soon after he

Facebook. So it was pretty soon after he was pushed out, fired for political beliefs at Facebook, which is kind of mind-blowing to think today, but at the time it was like, of course he should be, of course he should be a pariah.

This is this is unacceptable for someone to hold these political beliefs. And so

this was the situation that they were in. And they rightfully decided that

in. And they rightfully decided that they were going to take matters into their own hands and create their own stories and create their own ways to get

it out there. So they took a massive bet on me really changed my life because Palmer sometimes very kindly is like you helped

us with comms or like actually he helped me with comms. You know I I learned how to do comms by working with Palmer and Trey and Brian and Matt.

I have a question for you. The way

Palmer is now where like he takes the fight to them. He goes direct. I know

that's part of your manifesto. Was he

like that back then?

He still had that same fighting spirit.

Now, the environment was different and so it would land differently and his audience was a little bit different. So,

it would have looked different on the surface, but I think the the fighting spirit and the instinct was there. And

that's why I had this wonderful opportunity to work with these great guys at a time when I was objectively really underqualified. They could have

really underqualified. They could have gotten, you know, best of the best. They

could have gotten anybody. Um, and I will always be so grateful. This is why I I talk all the time about being so grateful to these guys. It's like you don't understand. People People don't

don't understand. People People don't understand. They enabled me to learn how

understand. They enabled me to learn how to do comms. I would not be in this position. I would be like at a regular

position. I would be like at a regular PR agency doing regular PR agency things if it hadn't been believe that though. I definitely

believe that the influence and your appreciation for them, but I I've known you too much. Your personality type would not your personality would not allow you to be a normal person working in a normal company. Even the way the

structure of your company is incredibly rare. I I actually don't believe that

rare. I I actually don't believe that you believe that.

Yeah. I don't know what I would be doing.

Maybe I would have ended up here by some other means. But it

other means. But it doesn't mean you would have found this path, but you would have. You're too

singular of an individual.

Couldn't ended up somewhere else. I

don't know where I don't know where. But that is where um the lessons of counterinsurgency and accepting that you don't have the

mainstream information networks and that you don't have a lot of people already on your side and just not relying on those and building your own came into play. So we

play. So we So this is very like you know I think this is like the playbook for startups, right? So explain

right? So explain block and pose. There [laughter] you go.

Let's go. So explain I love this idea of yours like explain the similarities between somebody that has an idea to start a company or a movement which I love the the phrase you use and a

counterinsurgent and what they have in common.

When I was studying counterinsurgency they made us pretend to be a terrorist group cuz the best way to study the thing that you're fighting is to understand the thing that you're

fighting. And so they had us create

fighting. And so they had us create these mock terrorist groups and you had to come up with your mission and vision.

You had to create your manifesto. We can

talk about the importance of a good manifesto. This is when I got really

manifesto. This is when I got really manifesto pilled. I think we're maybe

manifesto pilled. I think we're maybe now overdoing it. Maybe it's part of that is my fault, but the value of a good manifesto cannot be overstated. So

what makes a good manifesto?

A good manifesto looks at the world and says, "The people that we're fighting or trying to replace, they have more numbers than us. They have more money than us. They have more force than us.

than us. They have more force than us.

And today, they have more legitimacy than us. But we are going to beat all of

than us. But we are going to beat all of that with more intensity."

There's a quote that's maybe apocryphal that says, "One man plus the truth is a majority." And I think that applies to

majority." And I think that applies to insurgent movements where a small number of people who are willing to die for the

cause in this case literally and have that intensity intensity can overcome everything.

There's no amount of money or incumbency that can overcome somebody who wants it so much more.

The purpose of a manifesto is to make concrete that intensity and paint for people a vision of what

the world could be such that when they see it, they are willing to leave their jobs families security

everything to go and make that happen.

And a good manifesto is once you see it, you can't get it out of your head. you

have to go do it. So the manifesto is the magnet.

And if you don't have that, you have no right to go up to someone and say, "Leave your comfortable job and leave your beautiful family and come with me on what is probably a death mission."

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So you've written a great manifesto.

It's called Go Direct.

Yes.

Okay. Can you explain the ideas that are contained in your manifesto and why you think it's so important for founders today to do this?

I remember trying to name the manifesto.

Spent like days and days and then we ended up with go direct the manifesto.

It was one of these things that you toil over for weeks maybe months and then end up writing it in like two hours. The key

idea in the manifesto is that traditional PR as we know it is dead. Maybe you can see the body, but it

dead. Maybe you can see the body, but it doesn't have a pulse.

And it's a good thing because traditional PR meant that you would have to filter your message through somebody else's prism. You would have to be

else's prism. You would have to be dependent on somebody else to have the goodwill and the alignment and the means to faithfully portray to the world what

you want to say.

That actually very rarely happens. If

you're doing something pretty uncontroversial and well understood, that can go fairly smoothly because it won't be distorted that much. But if

you're doing something unconventional, far outside the mainstream unpopular then you do not want this to be filtered through somebody else's prism. And the

second thing is I believe that there's a lot of virtue in being self-reliant for its own sake. For its own sake, even if nothing is on the line, we are sovereign human beings. We should be in control of

human beings. We should be in control of our destinies. We should be in control

our destinies. We should be in control of our narrative destinies and the stories that help us achieve the destiny. This is narrative sovereignty.

destiny. This is narrative sovereignty.

You never just want to be depending on someone else. And so the manifesto was a

someone else. And so the manifesto was a way of giving founders permission and exhortation that nobody's going to do this for you.

And that's good. It is in some way scary, but it is in some way liberating because you're the guy. There's no other guy who's going to go do this for you.

And the same amount of seriousness that you apply to the product or the code or the hiring, you have to be applying to your story and you're the only person

who can say it. You're the only person who can do it that effectively because you have at the beginning especially not a lot of evidence to back you up. You

have your word and you're going to back it up with your personal reputation, right? like the greatest founders that

right? like the greatest founders that we know go to the people that they know and say, "I know this sounds crazy. Hear

me out. I'm gonna do this. We're going

to do this together." And the other person's like, "All right. Okay, David

Sra, this seems okay because you're doing it and I and I trust you." So, there's just no other way around it.

So, when I read your manifesto, one thing I love about the you and this is this idea that um it's a very old idea.

like you bring you take these ideas from history and from the past and so like when I when I'm reading your manifesto on your website I'm like oh this is like Julius Caesar this is like Napoleon this is like Churchill this is

like Abraham Lincoln you're just applying it to in many cases like the the legendary tech founders of today yeah the reason the company is called Rostra is because Rostra was the

speakers platform in Rome from which place history was changed and there were many times when the mood in the city was A somebody hauled themselves up there

and stood to face the crowd [snorts] and then they stepped down and the mood was B. And this happened after Caesar's

was B. And this happened after Caesar's murder. You know, the city completely

murder. You know, the city completely turned in its perception of what had just happened and who was the good guy and who was the bad guy and who had legitimacy because of words spoken from

the rostra. So, I think that we have

the rostra. So, I think that we have figured out how to relate to and move and rally and gather other people a long

time ago. And some of that has some of

time ago. And some of that has some of that art has been lost um in recent times because we're just like distracted and our attention spans are shot.

But these are all things that we figured out a long time ago.

Okay. So, let's go back to where we were earlier. You started working with Andre.

earlier. You started working with Andre.

This idea of go direct comes after your experience with them. Correct.

Mhm.

Okay. How did that your work you're doing with Andrew and Palmer shape this this manifesto that's going to come a few years later?

This is necessity is the mother of invention. Okay.

invention. Okay.

And a lot of companies now that consider going direct as a default. I believe

have Endril and Palmer and Matt Brian and Trey to thank for this because going not direct was actually just not an option. you're gonna call some

option. you're gonna call some mainstream reporter and say, "Hey, the guy who got fired from Facebook for supporting Trump that you hate uh is doing a thing and you should hear him

out." Just very hard to do. There were a

out." Just very hard to do. There were a really small number of reporters who were fair during that time that I remember, but it it just wasn't the way.

And so, we were not going the traditional path of Techrunch or what Palmer calls trying to get the coolest startup award at one of these conferences. We were going directly to

conferences. We were going directly to Quantico, speaking to the Marines there.

Um, Palmer went to Camp Pendleton. Um,

going to speak at National Defense University, going to speak to the CIA, just going to the people directly, like literally walking into their building and speaking to them and then showing

them the thing. And then same for recruiting. Instead of letting uh some

recruiting. Instead of letting uh some hostile outlet Yeah. You said this before, like, okay,

Yeah. You said this before, like, okay, you go to whatever, I'm just going to make it up, New York Times to get a message out to get to the actual like 200 people you want to reach. You're

just assuming, okay, maybe 500,000 people read the story and hopefully the 200 people you want to reach that actually matter to what you're trying to the impact you're trying to have in the world, get to that. Like, well, let's just cut that. Just go directly to them.

Just tell them.

Yeah.

It's it's like you and I both care about a really shockingly small number of people's opinions, and these are people that in our case are like a text message

away. Why would you go to somebody else

away. Why would you go to somebody else as a supplicant asking them to carry the message for you so that they can filter through their worldview and then their editor and then put it into their

publication and then hope that that spray and prey reaches some of the people that you care about. Also, by the way, you lose we were talking earlier about intensity and the power of

intensity to overcome a lot of other things. You lose the intensity along the

things. You lose the intensity along the way because it becomes watered down. So

the founder relays the message to uh their PR person who then puts it into their words or tries to remember it and

then relays it to a reporter who then pitches their editor and then they write it and then the editor weighs in and then it goes out and then whoever it's

reaching is trying to interpret it. This

is why in in AI right now it's so stark.

You've got some AI companies who do not need a mainstream audience because all they care about is recruiting five top ML engineers and they actually

know who they are and they're going to go what to Good Morning America. [laughter]

Good Morning America. The Kelly Ripa show.

Yeah. Like what are you doing Oprah? What? and and and blast out to

Oprah? What? and and and blast out to some big number of who knows who these people are as opposed to a podcast with a lot fewer listeners.

Brian Armstrong went to a podcast called Pot of Jake and it was a guy called Jake and he had like I don't know a hundred listeners and then afterwards he had 115 or something you know reach people like

Brian um or there's like a few substacks or there's a few people on X like you you know where they're getting their information just go there work backwards. Does this require because

backwards. Does this require because like I can't tell the the the conditions in which this occurred, but I had the craziest experience where I wind up spending like eight straight hours with Palmer and I found him I've never met

like a mind that was like him.

Unbelievably charismatic, crazy storytelling, but like he is an inexhaustible mind in my opinion. I

couldn't reach the bottom of him saying interesting Time out. Wait, is this when you had to

Time out. Wait, is this when you had to call emergency backup podcasters to come [laughter] help?

I've told you a story.

Had to call a friend. So, no, we just happened to be with it was a weird circumstance. I can't even tell any

circumstance. I can't even tell any details, but just there happened to be other podcasters and I was just like, dude, after three hours, it's like you got to start asking questions because I I can't it was so wildly entertaining

and it's it's similar to like I would say Toby Luke in a different way. It's

like you can't predict what his response to your statement is going to be. And

that makes a very fascinating, but in this case, I was like, "Holy I got to like tap out on this." But he's also one of the most charismatic people on the planet. So, does going direct only

the planet. So, does going direct only work with that kind of founder?

No. Um, it works better with that kind of founder, but you don't have to have traditional personal charisma. You can

be more quiet, more introverted. You can

you can have a whole range of personality types, but you have to have intensity of belief in the idea. So the

idea has to be fleshed out and coherent and then your belief in it needs to be unassalable. So how much of your work is

unassalable. So how much of your work is working with the founder to make their thinking clear enough? Because there's

that idea that Steve Jobs would would say the simpler the idea the more they'll spread, right? And so he would spend un there's

right? And so he would spend un there's actually a book on this entire book on this. There's two books called one's

this. There's two books called one's called insanely simple, the other one's called the presentation secrets of Steve Jobs. read both of them and you know it

Jobs. read both of them and you know it was like he's such a clear thinker and look at the way he describes his products and the way he does an interview like there's so much work behind the scenes that you're not seeing for him to distill his thinking down to that is like is that a lot of the work

that you're doing with these founders?

Yeah. So I'll give you an example of a of a founder that I met at an event. I

actually don't remember his company. We

don't work together but that's what makes him a good example. We spoke for maybe seven minutes and for six of the minutes he is saying okay I have a business where anybody can become their

own cloud kitchen. You know, there's all these people at home who know how to cook really good food and there's people who want more variety than the stuff they get on Door Dash and I'm connecting them and there's a network of and and

there's a lot there and we had to distill it down and I'm listening to this and I thought, okay, so you're turning a cook into a chef and

he said, "That's it." And he ran with it. Sometimes it's just having somebody

it. Sometimes it's just having somebody who's not necessarily smarter than you and I don't know more about the topic, especially some of these AI founders who are just like technical geniuses. But

sometimes someone sitting across from you can take your word cloud of thoughts and ideas and suggest for you a synthesis and for you to see that coming from someone else makes you recognize

that that actually is the core of your idea. And now you have the compressed

idea. And now you have the compressed simple thing that you can share and spread. Okay. So, you have a simple idea

spread. Okay. So, you have a simple idea that can spread. You have to have be you're starting a movement. Therefore,

you have to have some kind of like passion or very like it's almost like a you're mission driven. How many clients do you have at

driven. How many clients do you have at this moment?

Over a dozen.

Okay. So, Oh, now we're expanding. Okay.

So, I know you're you're expanding your [laughter] company. So, say you have a

[laughter] company. So, say you have a dozen. How many of them are not mission

dozen. How many of them are not mission driven?

None.

Okay. So, you need to be mission driven.

What other characteristics?

It doesn't work. Like, how are you going to get somebody else to believe it if you don't believe it?

Okay. So, perfect. So what I'm trying to get to is like what are the things that if the founders listening to this need to do before they can go direct for it to actually work.

They need to convince themselves.

You know, you have to go out in concentric circles and and the the dot inside all the circles is just you, the sovereign individual who believes that

you're going to lead this movement. if

you haven't convinced yourself of what it is and why it's worth doing that you're going to dedicate your life to it. You know, it's like if Napoleon's

to it. You know, it's like if Napoleon's your general, if he's not going to die for it, why would you die for it? If

he's not going to charge the bridge, why am I some schmuck running across the bridge? Same with Julius Caesar, right?

bridge? Same with Julius Caesar, right?

At at um the battle against Vicking Getter, where he came out and was the easiest target out of anybody because of the way he was dressed. People saw him and they rallied back up. He's going to

fight. We have to fight. you know, Jon

fight. We have to fight. you know, Jon of Arc, everything. You see the leader or you see a leader doing the thing that you now feel ashamed to not be doing.

The person in the middle has to be the most convicted, the most passionate, and have the clearest idea of the promised land.

You know what just hit me while I'm listening to you speak?

I think this is a perfect opportunity.

Articulate why you're doing this. Like

what is why even start the company? Why

you work like a dog like 7 days a week?

I call you like 11:00 at night on the east coast and you pick up like and you have bunch of kids and like you have this crazy life.

Yeah.

So why are you like what is your mission? Like why even do this?

mission? Like why even do this?

I think the world is better when we allow new technologies to take root and flourish. And in my opinion building the

flourish. And in my opinion building the technology is often not as hard as getting people to use the technology. It

is not. If you build it, they will come.

Which by the way originated from Field of Dreams. Did you know this? That's the

origin of that quote. I thought it was from like the Bible or something. It's

from Field of Dreams. If you build it, they will come. They're talking about a stadium. It is not if you build it, they

stadium. It is not if you build it, they will come. It's you might build it,

will come. It's you might build it, maybe nobody uses it. Maybe it gets regulated out of existence and maybe nobody wants to come work on this thing

and you get overtaken. So in my opinion, the greatest and most underestimated barrier between technology existing and

actually having an impact is people understanding it, welcoming it into their lives and wanting to go work on it. And so there are a lot of really

it. And so there are a lot of really brilliant people working on the engineering and in the building. I don't

think there's a commensurate amount of effort and thought being put into the second part, the human part of the equation of convincing people to

[snorts] want it and use it and work on it. You see that with AI today, right?

it. You see that with AI today, right?

We can build the AI.

Is the government going to allow it to be released? Are people going to use it?

be released? Are people going to use it?

We can build data centers. We know how to build a data center. What are you going to do when there's a moratorum because people don't want it?

This is a perfect example. AI right now has the worst reputation. It's like the worst favorable rating of almost anything. You've seen people talk about

anything. You've seen people talk about AI at commencement addresses and they're getting booed out of the room. What

would you do differently? Explain the

problem they have right now, what they're doing, and then how you would approach it differently.

A lot of CEOs are describing that AI will cause massive job loss. Most people

will look at that and say, "Don't say that it causes massive job loss." I look at it a little bit differently. If you

believe that it'll cause massive job loss, and you're in that rare position, I think you do have an obligation to warn people and to try to get us to

prepare for it. But the really small but really important thing is don't look happy when you're saying it.

Don't be smiling when you say there's going to be a 50% unemployment rate in a year. Eric

Schmidt doing that commencement speech.

Explain the context of that in case people haven't seen it and then what he did and what you would do differently cuz I'd like your response to this.

Eric Schmidt gave a commencement address and among other things that were totally fine. He said that AI will change the

fine. He said that AI will change the world and the question is whether you will help to build it and that it's going to disrupt all of these jobs and

it will uh change the landscape and I forget his exact words but the vibe of it was it is taking away jobs deal with it and get on the train or you're on the

tracks.

two things. One is at the center of his story, the protagonist wasn't the human and it wasn't the person he was speaking to. He wasn't saying, "You can go change

to. He wasn't saying, "You can go change the world and you have the world's most miraculous technology to use. Think of

what you could do with this." Instead,

he said, "The technology, the protagonist is coming. Whether you like it or not, you are potentially in its way or you could get on the bandwagon with me." Which is just like the the

with me." Which is just like the the wrong framing. And then the second is

wrong framing. And then the second is when he was talking about the possibility of AI essentially taking half the jobs of of these anxious graduates in the audience, he didn't

seem upset. He didn't share what fear,

seem upset. He didn't share what fear, anxiety or didn't recognize what it would be. He dismissed any potential

would be. He dismissed any potential anxiety that would arise from that. He

sounded completely secure and blasze about this happening.

And so a lot of people have opined on um the messaging of how you're going to talk about job displacement. Are you

feeling are you doomer? Are you over optimistic? And all of this aside,

optimistic? And all of this aside, a human talking to another human should recognize the other human's

reaction to that news. And if I'm telling you that you are potentially going to lose status, purpose, income,

and security, and I seem just fine, and I'm smiling as I say it, automatically there's no trust between us. You don't even think of me

between us. You don't even think of me as barely as like the same species, but you don't think of me as being on your side. And you don't assume that other

side. And you don't assume that other things I say are things that you would agree with or relate to. So the same way that like if you and I are disagreeing and we're fighting and we don't know if

we can ever get on the same page, the best tactic for me is to find something that you and I agree on and to lay that as the foundation. It can be some anodine thing like you and I both really

like that hot chocolate you did didn't completely unrelatable to me. So it

would be something else.

People don't understand she has hot chocolate in that cup. Every time I see you fuels inappropriate as an adult fuels me a grown adult. what fuels me and that's every restaurant I'm at with you alpha in the fact that others don't

recognize the potential of this as a performance beverage you're a grownup you should not be having hot chocolate every dinner this is why I don't have to spray my nose with the zinc stuff because

my nose my throat I talk about the hot chocolate is helping me speak for a living if we were arguing I wanted to get us back on the same page I would say so yeah well now we have to reconcile so

now we have to be like this is a really beautiful place I'm glad we're Thank you for the Aman New York for letting us shoot here. By the way, shout out Aman New York.

Now that we're back on the same page, you can assume that things I say in the future are things that you will probably agree with because you believe that I'm someone with whom you have things in

common. So a lot of um the senior people

common. So a lot of um the senior people in AI that the general public sees get introduced to them in a way where they automatically believe this person has

nothing in common with me and anything else they say. I cannot assume that I would assess the situation the same way.

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Something that I've heard you say a few times is that humans crave a story. One

of my favorite alltime quotes is from Steve Jobs. says the storyteller is the

Steve Jobs. says the storyteller is the most powerful person in the world and something that I think is important because I just I was sitting here listening to you when I asked you like oh what's your mission behind like why you even do this and you're talking about the importance of creating new

technology I think you and I what you're doing on the PR side and what I'm trying to do with the podcast is like this new podcast this show essentially started out as like we should have a love letter to capitalism right it's like I'm the

son of a Cuban immigrant my grandfather was born in Cuba Castro takes over he's like this is we need to get out of here that one decision by a man I don't I don't ever remember eating changed the trajectory of my life. And

what's weird to me is capitalism seems like one of the greatest inventions humanity ever had. A huge force of good, the reason that one of the reasons that America's the most powerful and prosperous nation on the planet, it

should be celebrated. I remember sitting across from Bezos, Jeff Bezos one time.

I got to talk to him for several hours, which was incredible. And I told him, I was like, "The idea that they protested outside of your house and they put a guillotine in front of your

house is insane to me." And I told him and I told him, I go, "You made a magic button that I can press and anything comes to my house." Used to be 2 days.

Now it comes like 3 hours later.

And I was like, "That's what it's like, you deserve all the money." He just laughed and laughed and laughed.

But I think like the the other story, you don't displace. You can't just like say,

don't displace. You can't just like say, "Oh, communism sucks. Look at all the people that have died. Look what

happened in Cuba. Look what happened to all these countries." You have to tell a better story. You have to give them a

better story. You have to give them a better alternative. I feel the people in

better alternative. I feel the people in AI, I use AI every day. It seems

miraculous to me. We use it for the podcast, they use it for learning, use it for entertainment, all these other things. They're not putting forth like a

things. They're not putting forth like a better story.

They're not doing it in the right way.

Also, there are people who have painted really wonderful optimistic visions of what AI could create in the future, but it feels like PR and people write it off

and it feels heavy-handed. The last time there was a really effective techno optimist message was the Jetsons.

And it's because they weren't beating you over the head with technology is going to make your life great. The show was about other

life great. The show was about other stuff. I don't know. They go around,

stuff. I don't know. They go around, they go about their family dynamic family, where you have a robot in your house doing all your work. You have a flying car in the background. It was

ambient. It was ambient and assumed everything technopesimist.

The tech is in the foreground and it's about the tech.

Terminator or Blade Runner, anything where there's a future that you potentially don't want dystopian.

It's a the dystopian stories about the tech. The tech is the thing people focus

tech. The tech is the thing people focus on. But the utopian stories about tech,

on. But the utopian stories about tech, when you make tech the thing people focus on, they write it off as PR. And

so I think what we want is for the utopian stories about tech or the optimistic stories about tech to have it in the background just be ambient. A lot

of people have read sci-fi novels or and sci-fi novel novels are usually not about the technology itself. It's about

a story like Neil Stevenson's Diamond Age is about Nell and her family and um Seven Eves is about the people being sent to space and the fact that they

have technology to preserve the human race is in the background as an enabler and these are the types of stories that make people so inspired that they have now started companies. You and I have

talked to many founders who have started companies based on being inspired by sci-fi. Palmer is obviously one of them.

sci-fi. Palmer is obviously one of them.

And it's not because they're bludgeoning you over the head with one specific invention. It's because they're showing

invention. It's because they're showing the better world and the human stories within it with technology in the ambiance.

I feel like if people went back and studied like David Oggovy, Claude Hopkins, Albert Lasker, some of the greatest copyriters and some of the greatest uh founders of these the heyday like the Madison Avenue of these

advertising agencies, they they just all say the same over and over again.

They're just like, "Show the benefit.

show what don't show your product, show the change it enables. I think one of the best examples of this is if you heard the story when Steve Jobs was really young. I think he was like in his

really young. I think he was like in his 20s and he's like the he tells the story of uh the the most efficient uh like locomotion for any, you know, uh any

creature on Earth. And uh it's like you know uh a man is really like low on that compared to other animals. Well, you put a man on a bike and he's way more cuz I drink chocolate milk. But he's way

more efficient than even like the condor I think is the the what he the animal that um he that he just compared it to.

But he's like but if you put him on like the bicycle he goes so what I'm creating is the bicycle for the mind. And then

you're like oh I want a computer because this is now makes me more efficient. It

makes me takes me from the slowfooted human to the fastest animal and the most efficient animal on the planet. That is

a perfect illustration of like I'm not selling you bits and bites and RAM. I'm

saying what is going to occur after you use my product. So let's go through some examples because I think some of your clients you're on the board of Shopify for example.

I think Toby does this perfectly like the way he conveys what Shopify is is like trying to create more entrepreneurs in the world. So one thing I want to point out is talking about the change in

you with the product is exactly the right way and what we were talking about earlier with showing technology in the background of a human story and not just bludgeoning you with the technology is more effective. The second thing that's

more effective. The second thing that's really effective about bicycles of the mind is the analogy because he just saved himself two paragraphs of explaining by saying the word bicycle

cuz we know what a bicycle is. So I was talking to a founder a few weeks ago where he said we take a system that ingests the data and then finds the inefficiencies and identifies

and I thought about it and I said oh it's Ozmpic for companies. Okay. And if

you know what Ompic is then you've just saved yourself two paragraphs of of explaining where you get two birds one stone. You get the complexity but you

stone. You get the complexity but you also get the simplicity and it's the best of both worlds. So give me some more examples from some of your your like the way they described their mission. They distill it down to like

mission. They distill it down to like the the existence of their company. What

is their company doing for the people their customers and the people that use their products?

You asked about Shopify and Toby is very good at this where he talks about there's kind of two levels of Shopify.

One is the level of this wondrous technology and what it means for the world. And in some ways it is the

world. And in some ways it is the technology backing entrepreneurship and entrepreneurship is going to be the last bastion of human economic value. If they

take everything from us, we will always have entrepreneurship. So Shopify is

have entrepreneurship. So Shopify is sort of like a hedge against every job being taken because they can't take from us our agency and our ability to start new things. Shopify creates the

new things. Shopify creates the technology to make that happen.

Shopify's infrastructure for entrepreneurship. That's one level for

entrepreneurship. That's one level for it. Another level is the merchants. Toby

it. Another level is the merchants. Toby

and Harley do a wonderful job of telling the Shopify story through what it has done for the merchants. skims

successful company probably IPO was possible because Kim and Yens and the team didn't have to sit down and say like okay we want to start the store but first we have to figure out how to

individually do a web portal and payments and design and all of these things and patch it together how many people have that as an insurmountable obstacle before they're able to actually bring their business online so the story

of one merchant going from someone's dream and it might be somebody in a small town who is retiring and has always wanted to open a marmalade shop or whatever, or maybe it's one of the biggest celebrities on earth launching

Skims, turning that into what is now a thriving business, um, is the best way to talk about Shopify, even though they're not the hero of the story. So

again, we're seeing a theme. Same thing

as what I said previously with the Jetsons. The Jetsons are the hero of the

Jetsons. The Jetsons are the hero of the story. It is not called show about

story. It is not called show about robots.

you know, the robot made series and then the Jetsons are side characters. They're

the heroes. The human story is the hero and then the technology is ambient. It's

the same thing with Shopify. In this in the ski story, Kim and Yens and their team, they're the entrepreneurs. They're

the hero. Shopify is ambient because without them, none of this would be possible in its current form. But you

are not bludgeoning people with this is about Shopify.

All right. You wrote this essay called Standing On 2026 that I absolutely loved. You talked about the difference

loved. You talked about the difference in strategy that founders should take moving forward. Can you like lay out the

moving forward. Can you like lay out the thesis and like the main idea behind what you're writing?

This is my philippad for the year, which is this tirade I've been I've been going on, which is that everything seems fake now. Everything is fake. Everything is

now. Everything is fake. Everything is

fake. You you go to some of these launches, first of all, every launch uses the same like slop cinematic video, same template. It was original a few

same template. It was original a few times and now it's just like they're all doing it and then half of them you go to the engagement it's completely fake. You

you saw um one from today I think you said that it had like it has like 100red likes but 4700 retweets. It's like why are you paying

retweets. It's like why are you paying for retweets?

Yeah. There was another one from a couple weeks ago and then another one from the week after that. And the reason we know is because you and I have the eye to look for it. And also I know who some of these agencies are. I get the

messages, you know, pitching the paid promotions. I know the people who get

promotions. I know the people who get the messages. And you can just start to

the messages. And you can just start to tell after a while that number one, the amount of engagement this thing has is completely disproportionate to how interesting it actually is. And then

number two, when you look through the people who are engaging with it, it's all like some random account in a developing country [laughter] that has no other tweets that are than

um shilling products like this. When

that happens, I write off the entire company as fake. I don't think this was a fake video or fake engagement. I think

to myself, it's a fake company with a fake founder. I will never buy their

fake founder. I will never buy their product, do business with them. I would

never recommend somebody go work with them. The whole thing is fake.

them. The whole thing is fake.

What is the advice that you have in the essay for to do like what would you do today?

You can do things that can't be faked.

So, first of all, it's better to put out something that truly represents the best version of what you are doing that might get lower engagement, but the people who are engaging are actually real people

and they care. So, it's better to get 50 people who feel like this is speaking to them than to get the 4,700 retweets or whatever that you saw that

seems obviously fake. Two is there are things that the fakes can't replicate.

And these things are relationships with other humans. You should make sure to be

other humans. You should make sure to be telling your friends about it, telling your contacts, and um partnering with the people that you've known and trusted for a long time. that can't be faked by

one of these fake companies. Another is

doing things in the real world. Um where

you might just bring people over to your house and talk about it. Fake company

can't do that. There's a sense of taste and discernment and beauty that I don't see in these fake things.

They're not made with love.

Yeah. You keep saying there going to be like a return to beauty. What does that mean?

There is a return to beauty. What does

that mean?

People are allowed to care about objectively beautiful things. Again, we

had probably a decade or the better part of a decade where we had to take this aesthetic relativistic view of everything is beautiful in someone's

eyes and this piece of art that is like clearly trash is just as beautiful as one of the great masters. or somebody

who is clearly unhealthy and unhappy is just as beautiful as someone who takes really good care of themselves. And

you're talking about putting obese women on like the front of a magazine.

Uh yes. Like um like the Victoria Secret had this phase of like obese women and men. Men Victor's Secret. It became

men. Men Victor's Secret. It became

[laughter] This isn't Victor's secret, but it was for a while. Like, why why are we all pretending it was like the Emperor's new clothes, the Emperor's new lingerie? Like, we're all pretending

lingerie? Like, we're all pretending that this is still sexy, and we're pretending that this still looks good.

Anyway, coming off of the back of that, people are allowed now to say, "This is more beautiful than this." And a beautiful building is more beautiful than an ugly building. And a beautiful

website is worth creating. This is what Joe Jebia and the National Design Studio team are doing is saying we believe that more beautiful experiences on the internet reflect the dignity of being an

American citizen. And that is what we

American citizen. And that is what we want. So we're going to put in effort

want. So we're going to put in effort from the best talent in the private sector to go make that for you because it's worth something. We're not going to pretend that a website has to be ugly.

And anything big or small or glamorous or very pedestrian like a simple government website can be made more beautiful. And when it is, people

beautiful. And when it is, people appreciate it so much more because we do have this inherent yearning for beauty. And going back to

real versus fake things, the fake things don't have beauty. They're orphans in a way. Nobody loves them.

way. Nobody loves them.

So, you think an appreciation for beauty is universal?

Yes.

It's interesting. I just read this book.

um his name is the memoir of this guy named Kelly Johnson who's the one that started skunk works at Lockheed Martin and he he talked about that like he um he worked so much and worked so like his

his work was so stressful and difficult he wound up having to like have part of his he got ulcers to have part of his stomach cut out just under unbelievable pressure he put on himself and he had to find a way to to literally take him out

of his work so he'd like to spend time outdoors and he became a rancher and he said you know one of the most important things that ever happened in his life is just the fact that he liked watching the sunset every night and he's just like there's nothing more

beautiful on the planet than a sunset and he's writing those words 40 years ago he's been dead for you know 30 years 35 years and it's just like that's still true today it was still true in time of

Julius Caesar explain to me the connection because you you you talk about everything's fake which I agree with and at the same time you talk about taste and beauty so explain how those

things connect like almost like taste and beauty I think the way you describe Taste was taste is the recognition of beauty.

So explain how taste and beauty is an anecdote to everything being fake.

Well, first of all, um just on the thing about sunsets, the one thing more beautiful than a sunset is a sunset with friends. Sunset with the homies.

friends. Sunset with the homies.

Yeah. to paraphrase Cicero, you know, he he would say he would say something akin to it's a it's a great um joy to be looking at the beautiful stars

tonight, but even better to be looking at them with you. Cicero in 50 BC wrote the last great treatise on friendship and we've been underestimating the importance of it ever since. And so one of the other things on the list of

things that are real that can't be faked is friendship and having your friends come along for the journey and support you. Now, as to the question of why

you. Now, as to the question of why taste, beauty, discernment, elegance are antithetical to fake things. It's

because fake things are not beautiful.

It sounds like something that isn't necessarily true. You're like, well, in

necessarily true. You're like, well, in theory, someone could create something that's fake and it could be beautiful.

In theory, yes. But it hasn't been done.

In practice, I have not seen a company or a project that wasn't real that was also beautiful. So, I can't explain the

also beautiful. So, I can't explain the mechanism, but empirically it is the case that fake things do not turn out beautiful. And I think it's because no

beautiful. And I think it's because no one has put that love and care into them because why would you put the love and care if you are just going to buy the engagement

anyway? On the flip side, it's that

anyway? On the flip side, it's that beautiful things can't be faked. You

know, beauty is a scoreboard. It's a

very obvious scoreboard. Someone who is healthy, who takes care of themselves, you see it right there. You can't

pretend. And so, I think beauty is sort of like a stamp of authenticity.

What's the business version of that?

What is beautiful? Like, use an example of one of your your your clients like the effort they put into making their product more beautiful. like what would be something we can point to?

I would suggest go to General Matters website.

We and they and a talented team that slaved over this website for a long time. You know, some slaved more than others. I'm not saying I was in the minds making the website, but we

all put so much thought and so much care into it and argued back and forth probably longer than we should have. And

you see it and it's so simple. And then

you go into the mission and the manifesto and it's so short and it took a lot of people. I mean the billable

hours and cumulative IQ points that were spent on this are unfathomable and it ends up with something that is so simple, so elegant in my opinion, but you wouldn't have gotten there without

going through that journey. You know, if somebody had just thrown up some kind of slop site and viodated the thing and put a bunch of random words that Claude wrote up there,

I don't think you would get the same.

Or even worse, use a template.

You're anti- template. I've heard

I'm anti- template.

This is one of the most interesting ideas. Explain this.

ideas. Explain this.

I do not use templates.

Okay. But people come to you and they're like, "Okay, well, I'm a company. You

work with other companies. They had this problem. I'm sure you have some kind of

problem. I'm sure you have some kind of template for this problem." You're like, "No, we're going to start from a blank sheet of paper." explain your thinking on this.

Two reasons. One is, yeah, I do get asked for templates a lot and I always say I don't have templates. I actually

have to resist the temptation. I have to pass the marshmallow test to save myself time by using templates. I can make my life easier and have 20 more minutes at night to read by using more templates.

And the reason I resist it is number one, no two situations are the same. And

by pretending that they are, we miss that texture. At the beginning of this

that texture. At the beginning of this conversation, we talked about context and texture and respecting that. And I

think that alpha comes from the little cracks in reality that only you can see and that you can exploit. And if you are just plastering over that with a templated version of something else, you

are sacrificing the opportunity to be better. And I am sacrificing the

better. And I am sacrificing the opportunity to be better than my own work of 6 months ago. Why do I want to settle for the schlubby nonsense of the thing that I did when I was six months

dumber that I am now? I'm not going to do that. So, I don't use templates. The

do that. So, I don't use templates. The

second reason is we've talked about things that are inherently valuable.

Inherently valuable to me is the idea that everything deserves

originality and that there's a shortage of it in the world. Anything worth doing deserves originality. Now, if there's

deserves originality. Now, if there's like a founder that I literally didn't care about, they would just, you know, by definition I would never work with, maybe I would toss them a template. But

anybody that I care about, I would be insulting them by taking the shortcut and discounting their originality. And I

would be insulting my own ability to continue generating new ideas.

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I don't know if you're going to remember this, but hearing you speak right now, there's actually templates in communication, too, which you see this with like there can be autocomplete because we just say the same stuff over

and over again. So, you and I were at uh we were doing this event. Cognition is a a customer of yours. I'm friends with two of the founders. They asked me to come to this actually by pure chance

this same hotel we're today.

Was this the thing where I sent that email?

I'm going to get to there. Exactly. This

is ex this good. You do remember this.

So they're like, "Hey, will you come do this event and like interview two founders for us?" I'm like, "Yeah, I love you guys. That's fine." And I don't check my email. Like I push everything to text. And my email is just like I

to text. And my email is just like I literally just don't read it. And I just happened to see like one pop up and it says Lulu. And I'm like, "Oh, I'll read

says Lulu. And I'm like, "Oh, I'll read Lulu's email." I'm like, "I'm not

Lulu's email." I'm like, "I'm not reading this other stuff." And in this email, this had gone back and forth for like I missed the thread. And I guess this other founder's normal PR person

had sent over like a list of questions like this are the questions that David We want David to ask the founder which is like first of all you're crazy if you think like you can put like control what's going to come out of my

mouth and you I jump in this you're like these questions suck and David's David would never ask these questions like these aren't good enough but I realize and then you read them it's just like the most bland boring templated

that you've ever seen. It's like I I think there is something why are we attracted to people like Palmer Lucky?

We had Mark Andre on this uh this podcast and I was like I think the two best podcast guests at least in business-wise in terms of like what comes out of their mouth and how they're able to to speak is like I told Mark it's like you and Paul are lucky because

it's like they're so fascinating and entertaining to uh to like hear speak and it's part of it is because they're not it's impossible to say that either of them or any of the good communication

communicators even Elon or any else like that is like speaking in template form.

they are truly unique and kind of leaning into what makes them unique.

When you use a template, you are giving up on the possibility that you could be better. And I say this sometimes about

better. And I say this sometimes about AI writing, your AI is a wonderful tool.

I use it all the time. But [snorts] if you are relying on AI to write for you and to generate ideas for you, you are putting yourself at sea level or you're

putting yourself at the level of anyone else in the population who wants to pay fractions of a cent for a token to get the same out you know similar output

from the same shared brain. So if you are far below average you should do that because average is better than you. But

if you believe that you can be even a little bit better than average, you would be robbing yourself to do that.

And actually Ralph Waldo Emerson calls it a form of suicide because in imitating others, which is what a template is, you are killing your own

ideas. You know what are we?

ideas. You know what are we?

What are we if not a unique combination of beliefs, ideas, feelings? Like if you were really to unpack the soul that we

have, it's these things. I believe that there's a, you know, more special spark of life too. But if you take that and you mute it, you are killing a really

sacred part of yourself. So I can understand why he would say imitation is suicide. and using templates is robbing

suicide. and using templates is robbing yourself of the possibility that you could ever be better than the last thing and that's a shame.

Okay. So, you are the world's leading expert in terms of founder CEO comms, right? You also do crisis comms for the

right? You also do crisis comms for the same companies as well. So I need to make sure I understand the way you think about this based on not only the work you've done in the past and the c the

clients that I know of but also this essay that you wrote where is the proper reading of that essay that everything is fake is that you need to lean into the more distinct parts of yourself

is that what you're doing with your customers or your clients rather yeah I am leaning into things that only I can do and there are people many of them who are smarter than me or more

sophisticated or better connected or more experienced or whatever it is, but the combination of things that together I feel uniquely suited to do. I need to

do as much of that as possible and it has to be me. There's a million ways you could get something else from not me.

But if you want to build a movement around a technology that has civilizational importance, this is what I'm here to do. this is what I live to do. You know, it's sort of like your

do. You know, it's sort of like your thing. You've got the one thing. I'm not

thing. You've got the one thing. I'm not

trying to compete with other people doing other things. It's like this specific thing. And any of the founders

specific thing. And any of the founders that we're talking about, they have been put on earth to do a thing that needs doing.

They're the ones. Why would you ever put yourself on the same level as something that can be faked? And now that we are inundated with all of this fake it is really important to stand out so

that you can attract your people. You

kind of have to fight your way through the fray and through the noise to even get their attention. And that's another part of it, too.

Do you know who Dana White is?

Mhm. Okay.

Yeah, I saw your Yeah. I think he's a perfect example of

Yeah. I think he's a perfect example of this. Like I I would tell a lot of

this. Like I I would tell a lot of founders like you should just go watch his press conferences. I don't care if you don't like fighting. That's fine.

Just watch the press conferences he does after the fights. And like that's how you should communicate. There's two

things that came to mind when you were just speaking. One, he has this idea

just speaking. One, he has this idea where like the most important thing is like you have to know who you are.

That's step one. He's like don't do anything else until you figure out who the hell who you truly are. And two,

figure out what you truly want to do in life. And he goes once you make those

life. And he goes once you make those two decisions. He's got like this simple

two decisions. He's got like this simple genius. It's like you just wake up every

genius. It's like you just wake up every day and get after it. Like you already you know who you are and what you want to do. So you just do that every day and

to do. So you just do that every day and you never stop.

And I think those two things like knowing exactly who you are, what you want to do, and then finding that opportunity that only you can do. Mhm.

That is the most important thing. If

you're trying to do great things and distinct things in the world, you have to do those first.

Yeah. And sometimes when you see repeat entrepreneurs who are successful, it is a version of that company. So William

Hockey who did Plaid now doing column feels like a natural evolution of one big mission for his life. I think that it's possible to have multiple companies

but one meta company, if you will. I

always ask these kind of founders like what's the last company because yeah there's all like you can see it in a lot of these examples like you had to go through these experiences but there's like one company that just

like you wouldn't sell there's just not this is the last thing I work on and I think that's when you've truly found your mission. What you said about Dana

your mission. What you said about Dana White reminds me of something, which is I actually use Dana White, shout out Dana, as an example of what we talked about earlier where you're not hitting

people over the head with the overt PR messaging that they're going to write off. You have the human story and then

off. You have the human story and then the thing that you're trying to sell is sort of in the background. So, um, maybe we call this like the Jetsons rule.

Mhm.

He did this with MMA. That was the reality show before watching MMA was mainstream.

Humans being interested in the lives and striving of other humans was mainstream.

It always has been. And so the reality show gave us a way to follow along on the human journey of people training for these fights.

And MMA was ambiently in the background.

And if you watched a season of this, you got to know MMA. It's like people who watch I guess F1. They just get to know the show Netflix. Yeah. Whatever it's called.

Netflix. Yeah. Whatever it's called.

Driving to whatever.

I I [laughter] watched it. I can't

remember.

That got me in F1. Yeah. I didn't care about F1 until this is why I learned drug dealing from the wire in the background.

I'm kidding. I'm not a drug dealer.

Um many examples of this where you actually become interested in a thing and absorb it because it's around the other stuff that you're interested in.

The thing with Dana was interesting. We

talked about this off camera, I think, after we recorded, but you and I just had lunch when we talked about the fact that learning from history is a form of leverage and that time is really the only filter you can trust and that if

you wanted to know about persuasion or starting a movement, go read Cicero.

Like these ideas, everything has been like kind of solved. You just have to go find them. One thing that Dana told me

find them. One thing that Dana told me was interesting. It's like everybody

was interesting. It's like everybody told him like this isn't going to work.

No one's going to watch these people fighting. And he's just like it's going

fighting. And he's just like it's going to go everywhere because if for all of human history they I love watching people fighting for go back thousands of years it's like there if you have two men usually two

men like they're going to come to some kind of combat. And the great thing about his sport which he realized that he could be global from day one is like you don't they don't you don't have to speak the same language. It's like I could watch it as American, you could watch as Brazilian, you could watch it

as a Chinese. We're watching the same thing and we still understand what's going on. And he's just like no, of

going on. And he's just like no, of course this is going to work.

Yeah. With my first company, the one where I was learning comms on the fly for a company retreat, we actually went to go train with UFC fighters. And we

trained with the team of Uriah Faber, who's now in the Hall of Fame and created, pioneered the bantamweight category. And he and his team spent the

category. And he and his team spent the day training with us, you know, physically, but also just talking about their mindset. And one of the things

their mindset. And one of the things that stuck with me the most is nobody owes you anything. There are guys who show up uh at their gym with a backpack

coming from Brazil because this is the only thing that they want to do or know how to do and they're they're going to do this and and they don't need a lot of infrastructure around them. They don't

need for something to to tell them that they're ready. There's they're just

they're ready. There's they're just going to go do it now. And then the other thing that they talked about was sometimes your big break is being called up for a fight on last notice on on last

minute notice because you're not the person in the big letters but you're hoping to be and if the person is hurt or drops out or whatever it is which sometimes happens you might get a call on short notice and that is your moment

and you have to be ready for that moment and so their mantra was don't get ready stay ready and your big fight could happen anytime which I think is a good just guiding principle for Okay, so I

have these conversations selfishly because I get to sit across from like world-class experts and essentially just pepper them with questions and I'm looking for ideas I can then just apply to my business and then the people listening hopefully do the same. So

usually people are building great founders build their careers off a handful of ideas. It's not 20, it's five or four or three. So when I think about you and thinking about okay,

let me summarize your your handful of ideas and you tell me if I'm missing some or if I'm wrong in any. Number one,

lean into what makes you distinctive.

Mhm.

Two, go direct and not in any particular order. Three, uh you have to simplify

order. Three, uh you have to simplify your message so it it spreads, right?

And then four, you have to have some kind of mission.

Mhm.

What am I missing?

Trust yourself. This sounds very self-help kind of cheesy, but this is the message that you need to believe in yourself versus a hundred other people,

a thousand other people, millions of other people. You need to have the

other people. You need to have the actually insane confidence in your idea that you're willing to trust one person over everybody else. That is very hard

to do, right? If you're looking at any kind of scenario and there's one guy saying this and a million people saying it can't be done, you might want to side with a million people, but like we've said, one man plus the truth is a

majority. And you have to believe that

majority. And you have to believe that you're that person and that what you're seeing is the truth and you have to pursue it. And then you have to stay

pursue it. And then you have to stay with it because you can't compound something that changes. The way

compounding works is that it has to be a set principle that then compounds. And

if you change what that thing is, you start the clock again. and you start the compounding over again, it's not compounding. Compounding is incompatible

compounding. Compounding is incompatible with changing the thing that you're compounding. So, I I would say that

compounding. So, I I would say that that's the fifth quest. That's the um fifth point. And then one other I'll

fifth point. And then one other I'll tell you what the takeaway is, but I'll actually illustrate it for you. I'm

going to tell you about a sequence of events and then you're going to react to it. There's a man and a woman sort of

it. There's a man and a woman sort of older and they're immigrants from Europe. Um, they're living in the US.

Europe. Um, they're living in the US.

Um, I forget where, but they don't have a lot of money. Their son is in an insane asylum and, uh, it's his birthday. He's he's been put in this

birthday. He's he's been put in this asylum because he has a a he's suicidal.

He has this mental illness, a form of schizophrenia or something adjacent.

It's called referential mania. And so,

he's like super paranoid. It means that he thinks that everything that happens has something to do with him. and he

sees conspiracies everywhere and so um he is tortured by this.

It's his birthday and so they go and they buy him a birthday gift and they're trying to figure out what to get him. So

they get these like jellies and they go to take it to him and um the asylum won't let them come in. They say, "I'm sorry, he's had another attempt

recently. He doesn't want to see you."

recently. He doesn't want to see you."

So they go home and that night they're thinking about their memories and the father says, "We have to get him out of there." So they're they're at the

there." So they're they're at the kitchen table. It's really late. It's

kitchen table. It's really late. It's

like midnight or something and um the phone rings and they're surprised. The woman picks it up

they're surprised. The woman picks it up and there's a little girl. The little

girl says, "Charlie. I'm looking for Charlie." And the woman says, "Um, no,

Charlie." And the woman says, "Um, no, sorry. you must have dialed the wrong

sorry. you must have dialed the wrong number. And she she hangs it up and she

number. And she she hangs it up and she and the man continue their conversation and she says, "In the morning, we'll go get him out." And then the phone rings again and it's the end of the story.

What do you want me to do with this?

Tell me your reactions to the story.

I don't have one.

What are your questions?

It's incomplete. Like who's like who was the little girl? What who's the person that called back? Was this the same little girl? What happens to their son?

little girl? What happens to their son?

It's not incomplete. It's a complete story. It's a story called Signs and

story. It's a story called Signs and Symbols by Vladimir Navakov. And I think the message from that story is if we

don't have a coher a coherent story, we desperately try to fill it in. If we're

not given a story, we try to make a story out of it. What I told you was a bunch of facts, each of which could have stood alone. You know, wrong numbers

stood alone. You know, wrong numbers happen all the time. Who do we care?

Who's the little girl? It's just wrong number.

Mhm.

What happens to the son? I mean, either he lives or he dies or I just told you like a bunch of information. Just take

that information and go. But we can't. I

read that story before bed and I stayed up thinking about all of the possible things it could mean. And in the story, there's way more detail. You can pick at things like the color of the jellies and

he forgot the keys and all of this.

And what it says to me is that we all have a form of referential mania. You

know, we actually have what in this young man was a severe mental illness, but we have a version of it, which is we need to believe that things around us

are pointing to something. And if we're not told what that is, we will try to fill it in ourselves because our brains crave a story. So, if you're a founder

and you're giving people a bunch of information, this is what we do. I hired

this person. We're opening an office here. Here's some current events. We

here. Here's some current events. We

fundraised. People will weave that into a narrative whether you want them to or not.

So that's not in your control. The thing

in your control is whether you get to decide what that story is and fill it in for them and give them a sense of satisfaction and completion and feeling like, okay, I understand it. Here's

where this is going. Therefore, here's

what likely comes next. You know, if I had told you this story in a slightly different form, you would have maybe assumed I could have told you the same facts in a different way that would make

you assume that the sun was going to meet a bad end or that there would be a happy ending or whatever. I could have made you believe any of those things with the same set of facts. And this is

what the founders often are not paying enough attention to. It's the space in between the facts that ties them into a story that is our responsibility to fill

in because if you let people fill it in halfhazardly, they might end up with any conclusion that you don't control.

I think it's a perfect place to end.

Lulu, thanks for joining us.

Thank you.

I hope you enjoyed this episode. Please

remember to subscribe wherever you're listening and leave a review. And make

sure you listen to my other podcast, Founders. For almost a decade, I've

Founders. For almost a decade, I've obsessively read over 400 biographies of history's greatest entrepreneurs, searching for ideas that you can use in your work. Most of the guests you hear

your work. Most of the guests you hear on this show first found me through Founders.