The Controversial Manifesto Reshaping Ethereum - The Chopping Block

No, this is how capitalism works is that like over a long enough period of time, it is on you, the organization that was entrusted with the hundreds of millions of dollars to keep the keep the [ __ ]

thing going.

>> Not a dividend. It's a tale of two fun.

>> Now your losses are on someone else's balance sheet.

>> Generally speaking, airdrops are kind of pointless anyways. Um trading firms who

pointless anyways. Um trading firms who are very involved. Eat is the ultimate.

>> Dei protocols are the antidote to this problem.

>> Hello everybody. Welcome to Chopping Block. Every couple weeks, the four of

Block. Every couple weeks, the four of us get together and give the industry insider perspective on the crypto topics of the day. So, today we've got a bit of a crossover show. We've got all the podcasts melding together into one super

podcast. So, quick intros. First, we got

podcast. So, quick intros. First, we got Tom the DeFi Maven and Master of Memes.

>> Hello everyone.

>> Next, we've got Teroon, the Gigabrain, and Grand Puba at Gauntlet.

>> Yo.

>> And joining us today, special guest.

We've got Taylor Monahan, former matriarch at MetaMask. coming in from our sister show.

>> How's it going, Trey?

>> I'm I'm super excited to be here.

>> Do you have a new title? I don't know what I did no idea what to update this with, so I'm just >> uh on the other show. We're just calling me a security expert right now.

>> Security expert. Okay, security expert.

I'll go with that. Doesn't rhyme, but we'll go with it. And then, of course, we've got David Hoffman, cryptocono.

Wait, no. What does it say? [laughter]

>> Somebody somebody changed it to Zara Superstate. Okay.

Superstate. Okay.

was last time I was on the show cuz I also >> Is that right? That's why it's there.

That's why it's there. I was like, "Okay, >> the Zar of Superstate. Welcome David.

Your hair is looking fantastic. You're

looking you're looking quite spelt from the last time I remember you." But uh good to have you back.

>> And I am Hib the head hype man at Dragonfly. We're early stage investors

Dragonfly. We're early stage investors in crypto. We want to cave that nothing

in crypto. We want to cave that nothing we say here is investment advice, legal advice, or even life advice. Please see

chopping blocks at XYZ for more disclosures. Okay. So there's a new

disclosures. Okay. So there's a new fight going on and uh we enlisted some more podcasters because we needed help podcasting this fight. So let me

describe what the fight is about. So

there was a document released on March 13th called the EF mandate. Okay. Now

what is the EF? EF is the Ethereum Foundation and the mandate was a 38page document that was illustrated very uh very kind of cute cippher punky illustration style and it basically

describes the role of the Ethereum Foundation within the new mandate of the of Ethereum itself and specifically it focuses on these core cippher punk values. Uh and it describes it with a

values. Uh and it describes it with a new acronym never before seen called crops. Crops stands for censorship

crops. Crops stands for censorship resistance, open source, privacy and security.

uh it describes this walk away test which is that Ethereum must function even if the foundation disappears and the EF is meant to measure its success by how unnecessary it becomes and so the

the document primarily focus on how the EF is going to become effectively more and more invisible and less essential to Ethereum over time if it's succeeding in its mission and that the core function

of Ethereum is to be censorship resistant neutral and ultimately this you know credible as they often call it World War II resistant substrate that allows for always exit. Even if

intermediaries arise, Ethereum should always be usable for people who don't want to be in the presence of any of these intermediaries. So, you know,

these intermediaries. So, you know, maybe in and of itself sounds unobjectionable. Vitalic came out and uh

unobjectionable. Vitalic came out and uh kind of underscored it is like, hey, Ethereum is awesome. This is our new mandate for the EF. Everything is great.

It instigated a very large public debate. And now the the two sides of

debate. And now the the two sides of this debate is one side of effectively the cippher punks uh you know Ethereum himself as well as many of the core Ethereum insider maxis the many people

within the EF saying that this is great.

This is an underscoring of the true cippher punk soul of Ethereum. This is

what crypto is all about and we're really glad to hear the EF saying all of this out loud. Um and then the other side I don't know what you want to call them. I think many different voices in

them. I think many different voices in this crowd, but let's call them broadly the pragmatists who say that, hey, this seems like backsliding. This is what the EF was saying a year ago about the infinite garden and and that Ethereum is

all things to all people and it's this beautiful, you know, kaleidoscope and instead Ethereum was kind of sitting on its hands. The EF wasn't really doing

its hands. The EF wasn't really doing anything. it was just kind of funding

anything. it was just kind of funding these sort of uh uh I don't know these grants into useless things that never ended up resulting in any material progress in the ecosystem and had

largely seeded the role of advancing the adoption of Ethereum to outside parties.

Uh and that Ethereum was kind of holding on by a thread. And so I think to many people and I'm within this camp saw this as bad communication. This is like on the face of it, you don't necessarily

disagree with what they're saying that decentralization is important, but just like why are you saying this now when everything that the world has been telling you, screaming at you over the last year is get your [ __ ] together and

start shipping and talk less about philosophy. So, this has incited, I

philosophy. So, this has incited, I think, a large debate now that's still raging on several days later. and David

specifically requested to come on the show just to sort of do a dive bomb on his position on this on this debate. Now

Tay, you've taken a kind of middle ground if I can characterize it that way. How would you first before before I

way. How would you first before before I bring David in, Tay, how would you describe your position on this on this document?

>> So first off, I think that the document is wildly consistent. Like I've heard Vitalik personally say like the EF should be smaller over time since before Ethereum launched, right? Like that's

always been the goal. To hear it again is not a surprise to me and I think it's fine. I think that there are like

fine. I think that there are like specifically your point about like if people don't get it, it's bad communication. Definitely spot on. I

communication. Definitely spot on. I

guess maybe I've just been around for so long that I don't necessarily have high expectation. Like DF is very good at doing some things and not great

at doing others. And I think that the world would be better if everyone just accepted that. And

accepted that. And >> so people this is the best they can do.

That's your defense. This is the best they can do. Look, this is just who these guys are. What did you expect?

That's is that fair >> specifically because I think it's empowering to be like the EF is not going to be like the prag pragmatist

comm's marketing people other people can do that and if you do that well you should absolutely >> so here's why here's why I I reject that argument is that the EF has improved

dramatically at comms over the last year right if you look at the stuff they're putting out compared to what they put out a year or two ago right they're like underscoring ing uh entrepreneurs building in different spaces. They're

like doing these like startup profiles.

They're they're talking about actual use cases now and they have like a you know they have entrepreneur like you know I was just in Frontier Tower. They have

somebody there from the EF who's going there to support startups like they're pe now who are pitching me startup pitches which used to never happen. Nobody in

the EF even knew what the startups were on on top of the EF. Now they're trying to get VCs to look at startup pitches.

Right. That's great. That's absolutely

what they should be doing. That's

encouraging capital formation, encouraging more startups to build on Ethereum itself as opposed to going and building on Salana or Arbitum or whatever where more of the marginal entrepreneurs are going. That's great.

That's all what people love to see.

That's why people have been so supportive of the ways in which the EF has changed. But then but then you get

has changed. But then but then you get this.

>> Yes. Then you get this and I don't know maybe uh uh maybe I'll put like this.

I think I was like moderately optimistic that the LA like the the changes that we've seen are like deep enough to to really hold. But I do think that there

really hold. But I do think that there was some amount of like let's say experimentation where like the Malay PFP

right I think is like he's he's sort of stepping into a role to try but I think ultimately where the EF and Vitalic specifically are is going to land is

like is going to be a middle ground not necessarily they're not going to turn into Sana right like they aren't and so it just doesn't but I think that like you know when you

experiment, right? When you go out and

experiment, right? When you go out and you start retweeting projects and you're like, "Wait, actually, nothing bad happened and people like to be supported. This is cool." You're going

supported. This is cool." You're going to keep doing that. On the flip side, if you uh go a bit too hard on the experimentation, there's a bunch of push back or it doesn't uh it doesn't feel

genuine, you're going to pull back on that. And I think that generally I think

that. And I think that generally I think that that's fine. And again, I just for me, Ethereum has always been about there's room for people to build here,

right? You can build anything here. Um,

right? You can build anything here. Um,

and so every time I see the EF not be super great at something, I'm like, okay, cool. Like, there's so many other

okay, cool. Like, there's so many other people that can do that and do it well and they should.

>> Okay, let's bring David in from the top rope. David, what's your take? this

rope. David, what's your take? this

document, this mandate document from the EF, I read it as it's far more a statement about what the EF is not more than it is a statement about what the EF

is and what it wants to do. We like in 2026, this was your take, Kib, like we don't need another document from the EF reaffirming its vows to Ethereum.

Everyone knows what Ethereum's commitments are. Everyone knows what

commitments are. Everyone knows what Ethereum's ethoses are. The Ethereum

community has been loudly talking about its ethos to the annoyance of the rest of the industry since inception. Like no

one has any doubt about how strong Ethereum Cippher punk's commitments are.

I don't think that was even the purpose of this document to like reaffirm what those things are. That's I think if you just kind of like the the just like naively read the document be like oh you know Ethereum is doubling down on its

commitments that it was always doubling down on and there's there's not anything new there. The real in my opinion the

new there. The real in my opinion the real lens for this document is it Vitalic telling you what we what Ethereum is not going to do. And I read

it as Ethereum is going to be a cipher punk super lightweight, super hardened protocol that is a backs stop against

financial oppression, totalitarianism, authoritative structures, but it is not going to be an economic engine. And I

think a lot of people in the Ethereum community like me and and and people like me are here to build Ethereum the economic engine. And this this what I

economic engine. And this this what I hear from this document is Vitalic is not really interested in that. He's

interested in the DACK side of Ethereum, but not the ETHC side of Ethereum, the the accelerationist side of Ethereum,

where Ethereum as an institution grows in like might and power and economic weight and the rest of the world has to

contend with the power of Ethereum and the strength of the businesses upon Ethereum. And to me, all this this this

Ethereum. And to me, all this this this document is reading as like that's not what Ethereum is for. That's not the direction that we're going in. And like

you could take the point of just like this is the EF saying that this is not what they're doing. And the Ethereum the broader Ethereum community has the green light to go forth and try and build

that. But I also don't think that this

that. But I also don't think that this document represents a green light for the community to actually go do that.

And I have never really seen any sort of signal of support from Vitalic or the EF about a green light in that direction.

It's always been like yellow at best. Uh

and like when Vitalic wrote that article about like DeFi is Ethereum's foundation to finance other moonshots, like that was the best signal that we had to go in

that direction. To me, I see this

that direction. To me, I see this document as putting the brakes on the Ethereum maximalist being like the

Ethereum growth engine and really saying that we are going to rep prioritize the DAX side of Ethereum, the defensive technology of Ethereum, which to me

what that DACK thing means. I think the the words of Italic used to describe it is he called Ethereum a sanctuary technology. Um, can you just flesh out

technology. Um, can you just flesh out very briefly what what does that mean?

Yeah, the the metaphor that he used in an article that I really really liked is the the I'm gonna have to explain this one again. The file of Galadriel from

one again. The file of Galadriel from Lord of the Rings. It's a light. It's

like this this symbol in Lord of the Rings that the light it's not that useful. It's not a very bright light. It

useful. It's not a very bright light. It

doesn't do cool things. It doesn't have a lot of features, but it does work for you in the moment that you need it the most. And that's like the the file that

most. And that's like the the file that um Froto shines and he gets rid of the the spider. It's like a very hard like

the spider. It's like a very hard like very cipher punk, very censorship resistant, very hardened. It doesn't do a whole lot. But when you do need it, when you need to like preserve your

capital to get out of the country, you need you need it because an authoritarian totalitarian oppressive structure is bearing down on you, you have Ethereum in your pocket. And that's

what Ethereum is optimized for. And so

that that's what I would characterize as like the DAX side of things. And that's

what I think Vitalik is saying that's what we are building and that that is what our mandate is and I think he is projecting not just the EF in that direction he's pointing the whole

ecosystem in that direction.

>> And so one more clarification here David you're you're using the the name Vitalic.

>> This document was written by the EF.

There was no authorship particularly attributed to it if I'm not mistaken but you're saying that you think this is Vitalik's voice behind this document.

>> Yes.

>> Okay. Got it. All right. Tom Tun,

>> it was written by it was written by the board of the EF. I think there was a statement the board and like come on.

[laughter] >> Okay. All right. Tom Tun, let's get

>> Okay. All right. Tom Tun, let's get let's bring you guys in. What's your

What's your response here?

>> I more or less have a similar read and just like I I think the constraint I think the major gripe more honestly than even Vision is like momentum. I don't

think everyone anyone's saying, "Oh, like, wow, they're they're shipping really fast, but they're not really doing things in the spirit of what I think this should be, what this should be." People just generally feel like

be." People just generally feel like they're not doing anything. So, I I I agree with you. This feels like a huge regression. But more to the point, like

regression. But more to the point, like these feel like very evacuous statements. Like, you want privacy,

statements. Like, you want privacy, great. Like, what have you been doing?

great. Like, what have you been doing?

What what you done lately? What have you been for the past six, seven, eight, nine, 10 years? You want scalability?

Are we still doing L2? Like, I thought we were not doing that and now we are doing that. So it just doesn't feel like

doing that. So it just doesn't feel like there's a whole lot to it. It it's just like this kind of empty mission statement which is generally what you do at the beginning of a project or a company or maybe even when there's a big turning point in it. This is just like

no there's not really >> uh like a random Tuesday that they just released this.

>> Sure. It's a PDF too which I thought was kind of funny like normally >> gigantic website or something.

>> They really could have ged off down.

>> Yeah, you'd think so.

>> Yeah. Trunan, what's your what's your response mandate? I mean, I think a I've

response mandate? I mean, I think a I've learned over the years to just be disappointed in lots of things in crypto. So, I don't really it doesn't

crypto. So, I don't really it doesn't [snorts] really bother me anymore. Uh,

that's just like the >> learned helplessness. All right. Uh the

second thing is it's very Bitcoin maxi, you know, like I feel like I think about the Bitcoin development cycle and how it like started as like optimistic and adding stuff and then by 2015 it was

kind of you know I really thought Ethereum had a that longer trajectory of that before solidifying mainly because like it was unlike Bitcoin I think like Ethereum's community was really more

focused on new technologies right like adding ZK at the core for compression reasons not just privacy be like [snorts] kind of doing a lot more on consensus

stuff. But then I think there just

stuff. But then I think there just became this focus on like either problems that don't

affect users and are like how do we you know spend a lot of money on research and timing games or like other types of things we could add on the privacy side

that like still are pilots effectively.

[snorts] And in that sense, it reminds me of like big companies who just have a ton of pilots every time there's a new fad, but then none of them ever convert to like a product or a real thing. And like it does kind of have

thing. And like it does kind of have that vibe except it's like supposed to be sort of more research and development organization you know like and I think at the time DF was

funded founded which is like very similar to time open AI is founded you could like compare the trajectories of two kind of research to production organizations and see very different outcomes right and [snorts] and I sort

of had thought you know at that time there was like a chance that this would continue but I do think this oification thing in crypto is sort it. There is

always this sort of end state where like enough of the early parties are just like too satisfied with the status quo that there's just not really like no one's really going to push like the

change after a certain number of rounds of improvements. I would love to be

of improvements. I would love to be proven wrong, but empirically that's that's what this just feels like. It it

really just is it does remind me a little of like the block space wars except with kinder language.

>> I mean what okay so what really rubbed me the wrong way about this whole debate was the way in which all of these Ethereum people are just piling on to

anybody who objects. It's very like virtue politics which is that what are you against decentralization? Are you

against privacy? Are you against? It's

like dude what the [ __ ] We're all We've all been in this industry for a long time. Like, why do you think we're here?

time. Like, why do you think we're here?

>> I I >> It's like, you know, it's like a politician. Yeah. Go ahead, Drew.

politician. Yeah. Go ahead, Drew.

>> Sorry. One thing I I remembered when you were talking about that is that But there are people at the EF who I feel like are actually individually trying and like are trying to like, you know, they just hired all these DeFi people.

Before they would never they would never had that, right? Like absolutely weird thing where like I don't know >> I don't know how I you kind of have to have this like bipolar disorder to reason about it, right? of like, oh, on

one side it's like only the infinite garden and on the other side it's like, hey, we want people to use it and like >> it's constantly switching between those and I'm not sure which one is there at any given time. It's like Schroinger's

cat.

>> Yeah. So, look, the reality is that the EF is itself a decentralized organization in that there's no single CEO. They literally have co-executive

CEO. They literally have co-executive directors. There's no single CEO. Tomas

directors. There's no single CEO. Tomas

just left. And there's a there's they they sort of see themselves as being a loose affiliation of people who are kind of have their own brains and move in different directions. And so my

different directions. And so my understanding from what I've heard from folks is that even in the EF there are grumblings about this recent document, right? Not everybody agrees with it.

right? Not everybody agrees with it.

Some people believe that it was a mistake to put this out. Other people

are like, "No, it's really important to affirm our values and to say that this is the direction that we're going down."

Not everybody agrees with Vitalik. Not

everybody agrees with the people who disagree with Vitalic. Right? there

there are genuine factions within the EF and you know to your point Tarun they did recently add a bunch of people like the roles that I just spoke about all these people who are doing like go to market and growth and people who are

interfacing with VCs they're all new they were all brought in under the post Tomas transition who are focused on growth and go to market and the other thing that we've not mentioned at all in this conversation that I don't see

anybody mentioning in this conversation is that like why did this happen in the first place why was there this big turning against Ethereum and there's an

obvious gigantic answer which is Salana.

Salana started all of this. It's the

it's the it's the boulder that or it's the thing that started the boulder rolling down the hill over a year ago.

And now nobody mentions Salana anymore.

It's like the thing that you're not allowed to talk about if you're in Ethereum is that oh we are we are looking like you know when you talk to Tomsh will literally tell you that we are seeing what the Salana Foundation did well and we're trying to learn from

it. Now, we're not going to do exactly

it. Now, we're not going to do exactly what they did, but obviously other foundations are doing things better than we are. And if you look back to just a

we are. And if you look back to just a year or two ago, many more users who were coming into crypto never use Ethereum. Many of them didn't even know

Ethereum. Many of them didn't even know that Ethereum mainet is a place that things live or that is worth interacting with. They just thought, "Oh, ETH is a

with. They just thought, "Oh, ETH is a token you can buy." And so like this this polyianaishness that like Ethereum is not competing and it's not still trying to make up ground that it's lost

to Hyperlquid or that it's lost to Salana or that it's lost to some of these other ecosystems. Like yeah you might say like well memecoins are dead and [ __ ] Salana blah blah blah. It's

like, "No, man. These these ecosystems are still huge and so and Ethereum is still competing and it's not guaranteed to you. Like you're being able to uh

to you. Like you're being able to uh advance your values, which are values that we all agree with. That's why we all came into crypto. That's why we all fly the same banner. But those values,

you don't get to advance them for free.

You get to advance them if you win." And

so, you know, it's like a politician who comes in and says, "What are you, you know, you're you're voting against my, you know, my my my social security package? What do you like poverty? You

package? What do you like poverty? You

don't like you want more poor people out there?" It's like, "No, man. Like,

there?" It's like, "No, man. Like,

politics is complicated." But he's coming at you with a simple argument.

They're like, "Oh, you don't like decentralization or oh, you're just a [ __ ] you know, you think we should give it all away to bring the banks on chain." And it's like, "No, man. It's

chain." And it's like, "No, man. It's

not that simple." And like, we were just here. We were just here a year ago where

here. We were just here a year ago where all the people who were yelling at you that you don't like decentralization enough were driving Ethereum into the ground and we all agreed at that point and now all of a sudden people forgotten all of that.

>> This is the point. Go ahead, Jordan.

>> Sorry, I just want I was just going to say like this is where I definitely feel like I agree with Tay which is like >> it is you get you get what you see, you know, like and and I I don't I don't I

don't know. It's like hard to be like

don't know. It's like hard to be like okay like >> here's also I reject that. I reject that because like the EF has shown that they can change. Like the difference between

can change. Like the difference between the EF of 2023 and the EF of 2025 is so big, it's like hard to even recognize how good they've gotten relative to

where they started.

>> But I think that also makes me optimistic about it, right? Because so

the maybe it's worth clarifying like what I see like Ethereum as because I'm less obsessed with like the money side of it. Like I am very much and I've

of it. Like I am very much and I've always been very much that Ethereum is the platform a top which everything is built right

and so the people like you don't know what's going to come next right we saw ICOs nobody saw that coming NFTTS had their whole life right all those things were not built by the EF they were not

encouraged by the EF the biggest example obviously is DeFi summer and then actually credible DeFi right none None

of that needed Vitalik's permission or shilling. In fact, you could argue that

shilling. In fact, you could argue that all of those things may have been worse if Vitalic had been like, "Yeah, these are great, right?" Like they they were very fast and went very hard without

Vitalic support. And so when I think

Vitalic support. And so when I think about like what what should the EF be doing, right? it is in part make sure

doing, right? it is in part make sure that the platform the underlying stuff is the things that no one else is going to do and then as a secondary like

encourage people to build and I think that like the mandate perhaps does not capture that quite as >> it doesn't address it at all right

there's no they never mention users they never mentioned product they never mentioned payments they mentioned stable coins never mentioned DeFi never mentioned anything happening at the application layer the entire thing is

about, you know, this sanctu being a sanctuary. And again, that's not to say

sanctuary. And again, that's not to say that's not valuable. Obviously, we all agree that it's valuable. But to Tom's point, like when were you ever not that you've been there the whole time? Nobody

has ever argued that, oh my god, Ethereum is no longer sanctuary. You

guys have better get that [ __ ] back together so that people can use the base chain again. You know, like the the the

chain again. You know, like the the the indictment of Ethereum up until now has been all the users are going elsewhere.

That's been the problem. It's not that Ethereum is not a sanctuary.

>> The This is why the I agree with your takes Hib the crux of this whole thing just to to me falls on the line of does Ethereum care about growth and through

this document the the read that I'm getting is that the EF does not care about growth. They they view Ethereum as

about growth. They they view Ethereum as like this technological puzzle like how do we put all of the crops on the chain?

Can we can we get Ethereum max censorship resistant? Can we get

censorship resistant? Can we get Ethereum max private? Can we get like max secure? Can we solve that

max secure? Can we solve that technological Sudoku puzzle? And then

we're good. And then and then there's the rest of us like you guys all have businesses on Ethereum. I have a business on Ethereum. My business like your guys' is inherently tied to the

strength of the Ethereum economy. Maybe

maybe mine more than more than your guys. Maybe you guys are a little bit

guys. Maybe you guys are a little bit more diversified, but like mine is is one to one correlated almost one to one correlated with like the size of the Ethereum economy. And that's there's a I

Ethereum economy. And that's there's a I can just go down and list off a bunch of companies that all that are all true, right? Like consensus, uh, IEN Labs, OP

right? Like consensus, uh, IEN Labs, OP Labs, Arbitum Lab, Offchain Labs, like how many companies do I want to like these are all people where Ethereum

needs growth in order for their jobs to be secure, for them to pay salaries, for them to grow. But but it's not just that in crypto.

>> It's it's not just that, right? Because

like a lot of the pivot that we've seen from Ethereum over the last year has been a refocus on the L1 >> away from this idea that okay, we just created a substrate for UL2s to go find

your own fates. And that's what you know, we took the directive from the EF and said, "Okay, EF likes roll-ups.

We're going to go invest in a bunch of roll-ups." All the roll-ups have been

roll-ups." All the roll-ups have been more or less decimated. And Ethereum has taken back the mantle and said, "Okay, you know what? Maybe we should have been focusing so much on the roll-ups. Let's

scale to L1. Let's increase throughput.

And here's the thing, and many people pointed this out. The EF is doing all those things, right? All the things that I'm complaining about about going out and talking to institutions. Well, you

know, Etherealize is doing that, right?

It's an it's an outgrowth directly from the EF um or going out and um you know, scaling the L1. Well, Ethereum Ethereum is doing that, right? All these things are in the road map. Ethereum is doing these things. The question is why is

these things. The question is why is Ethereum now telling us that that's not the EF's role? Words matter. Words do

matter. communication matters, right?

The problem with EF up till now has been that the communication has been terrible. And so that's why I think this

terrible. And so that's why I think this um this contrast, especially when there's a leadership change very recently in the EF of Tamas leaving and Bastion coming in. I don't I don't know Bastion. I have no reason to think that

Bastion. I have no reason to think that he's he's not that he has one philosophy or another, but like I spoke very recently with people at the EF and they made pretty clear to me that like

there's not unonymity internally about both the direction as well as you know this particular document and the philosophy that it espouses. There's a

lot of people in the EF who are basically from the tamas camp of hey adoption and growth is what's missing and we should be focusing single-mindedly on that because it's our game to lose and we better not lose it

or we're going to regret it for the rest of our lives. And then there's the other side of the infinite garden people and they didn't leave. They weren't pushed out. There was no there was no cleansing

out. There was no there was no cleansing of the infinite garden people. And some

of these people really do believe that like hey this matters way more than adoption does. Adoption maybe is a nice

adoption does. Adoption maybe is a nice to have. price going up is maybe nice,

to have. price going up is maybe nice, but I think the real thing that matters is that it's a freedom technology and let's make it as free as possible, >> but it's not mutually exclusive. Right.

>> Right. Nobody need you don't need the people at the EF to be running around like shilling stuff and getting it adopted. You can if you support

adopted. You can if you support builders, right? They are going to go

builders, right? They are going to go out. They're going to build a long tale

out. They're going to build a long tale of stuff forever and ever and ever and whatever the people want, whatever is best executed, whatever, you know, the wind blows and people's minds change.

Then then you have that adoption, right?

Because the builders built it. That's

what we saw with DeFi summer. This is

what we've seen with everything in crypto. And that's also, by the way,

crypto. And that's also, by the way, what we saw with Salana. It just got very nihilistic. But that was also an

very nihilistic. But that was also an ecosystem thing, a wider ecosystem thing. And so for me, I don't know. The

thing. And so for me, I don't know. The

EF's job is to decrease the the risk of like the EF screwing with anyone that that that it's not going to exist in a couple years because that's like if I'm

a builder, right? What am I looking at?

Like why am I going to pick an L2 today, right? Are any of these going to exist

right? Are any of these going to exist in a couple years? Am I going to pick?

Is that where >> demonstrabably people do? There are more startups probably building today on base and on arbitrum than are building on Ethereum mainet if I had to ask.

>> I mean base today though because didn't they >> base today?

>> Didn't they just >> I don't know what what do you what do you guys think? You guys obviously also see startups. What would you guess is

see startups. What would you guess is the spread today of what you see from marginal startups.

>> Let's say the startups going through DeFi alliance today.

>> Where would you guess they build distribution wise?

>> I can't name a startup that has started on the Ethereum layer 1 in the last couple years.

>> No, me either by the way. I'm not I'm not saying I'm not in the last couple years I'm saying that that in my opinion that's the problem is that everyone >> right we're talking about now we're not talking about defi summer we're talking about now

>> actually I'll take the one other side of this though which is interesting is that if you look at a lot of the institutions trying to launch like money market funds

other types of RWA I will say the L1 has been a real center of gravity like there have been a bunch of RWA on Salana but the volume has still been just like tremendously dominant into ETH L1 in a

way that is opposite of startups. It's

like the big companies love the L1, the small companies hate the L1. That's kind

of what it >> That's true. And I think you have to give Etherealize a lot of credit for that.

>> Yes. Yeah. And you'll also have to give like the emphasis on like the cippher punk crops values to that as well. Like

why did you know why did Tom Lee become attracted to Ethereum? Because all of the things that Danny Ryan is espousing to Wall Street right now like censorship resistance, you don't have a counterparty. like all the all the

counterparty. like all the all the cypher punk properties naturally attracted so much of Wall Street and like that's a hu that's a huge win for Ethereum but like Tay to your point

where you have you know the EF focusing on the cipher punk values and then like growth is is up to the hands of the community like I do agree with that dichotomy

but there is nonetheless like a disposition of the EF that matters where did the Ethereum community grow the Ethereum economy in spite of the EF or

in alignment with the EF. And it always when we read these mood board vibe documents that con consistently come out of the EF every single year, it seems

like the Ethereum community grew the Ethereum economy in spite of the EF or in like because there's a part of the EF that seems somewhat allergic to pushing

on the gas.

>> I think it's not just that. It's that

clearly the EF they have users they like and users they don't like. You know

there are there are uh builders on Ethereum who the EF wants to highlight and feel proud of and there are other ones that they don't right and Val's been very explicit about this of what he calls lowrisisk DeFi. That's the DeFi he

likes. Hyperlid is not on Ethereum L1

likes. Hyperlid is not on Ethereum L1 but I assume he doesn't like lighter because okay that's high-risisk DeFi. We

don't like that. Like the reality is that this whole idea that Ethereum is for everyone and that Ethereum is this, you know, beautiful infinite garden is somewhat contradicted by the fact that there are use cases that are kind of

nice and cipher punky and like gentle and lovely and there are use cases of crazy people gambling and uh we don't like those so much. But that is actually what freedom looks like. A lot of what

freedom looks like is black market [ __ ] That's when you when you go to any place that is truly deregulated.

>> Your black market might be my my lit market. All right, buddy. [laughter]

market. All right, buddy. [laughter]

>> I I'm sure I'm sure that it is true.

>> Like you can go ask like the 2022 cohort of like Salana people that like like chewed glass with Salana through the bare market and like a decent number of

them will be like the the the virtue signaling vibes of the Ethereum community policing what is good behavior on chain turned me off and so I went to Salana. And then and then we had like a

Salana. And then and then we had like a like two years of Ethereum infighting about how to get good vibes back and then we had the pivot and now we're getting a second pivot back to the way

things were. We're unpivoting from our

things were. We're unpivoting from our original pivot.

>> I don't think it's actually a pivot. I

don't think it's actually a pivot. I

don't think like >> clearly this is a >> Exactly. Exactly. I think like clearly

>> Exactly. Exactly. I think like clearly this is an immune response, right?

People are like why are you guys freaking out so much? And I think that's that's actually the most valid response which is like why are you guys freaking out so much? You know, I wrote I wrote one pretty short tweet of just like, "Hey, you know, why please no more

manifestos and then people just jumped down my throat. People were so angry that I posted this and that's what made me like what? No, [ __ ] you. Why why

can't I say that?" But it it's it does feel like the the reaction to the reaction is what is making this so disconcerting for people is that other people seem to believe that pushing the

EF in the direction of focusing on growth rather than focusing on value preservation is somehow anathema to the mission of Ethereum. And if that's what people

Ethereum. And if that's what people believe the EF will listen to that and and that's how you end up backsliding, right? I think this conversation is

right? I think this conversation is really important because EF is paying attention. Obviously, they did not

attention. Obviously, they did not expect this reaction to, you know, what clearly is meant to be this kind of good vibes type. Like I, you know, they've

vibes type. Like I, you know, they've written so many of these over the years, right? And they keep changing, they keep

right? And they keep changing, they keep coming up with new names for them, you know. Um, and this is another thing that

know. Um, and this is another thing that I often criticize Ethereum for is just bad comms generally because they keep inventing new names and coming up with new acronyms and new things that you need to learn and then two years later

they stop using those, you know. So it

was, you know, there was the splurge and the verge and the merge and then got rid of that and then >> who comes up with more names, AI model companies or the Ethereum Foundation in the

>> modelies they ship they ship the things that they name. So at least No, it's true. True. It's true. You remember have

true. True. It's true. You remember have the same name name I feel like.

>> Yeah. But you know, we've had the beam chain. We now have the straw map and we

chain. We now have the straw map and we like there's there's all these new terms and they can't just have some communication discipline around here is the story, here's what we're doing, we

tell the same story every year and you just see us ticking away on the check marks. If the EF could do that, people

marks. If the EF could do that, people would be very happy. But again, at the end of the day, a little bit to T's point, like other than making sure that people can't rug each other in the low

level, isn't it a good sign the F is kind of doing this and like it doesn't matter like people are still using Ethereum? I like I feel like that at the

Ethereum? I like I feel like that at the end of all that matters, right?

>> Yeah. Look, right now it's obviously epifenomenal. If this is it and there

epifenomenal. If this is it and there was just a big argument about some doc, that's a great outcome. I think what everyone is afraid of like what what myself and David are afraid of is that

this is the EF testing. Hey, is it okay? Did we do the

testing. Hey, is it okay? Did we do the thing that you wanted? Did we did we respond to your concerns last year? We

did. Great. Now we can go back to doing what we were doing before, >> right? Are you guys for for long?

>> right? Are you guys for for long?

>> The answer is no. Absolutely not. Stay

the course.

>> Yes.

>> That is the response that the community is trying to deliver them. No. Stay the

course.

>> That this is why when I say the document, it's not about what it said.

It's about what it didn't say or telling us what it's not. Like I read this document as a dog whistle, not a statement of its values.

>> Okay, I want to go back to the if you were starting a new onchain thing today, where would you choose today?

Seriously, because two, three, four years ago, yeah, you're going to do an L2. You're going to do Salana. Why?

L2. You're going to do Salana. Why?

because well one because they'll literally give you so much money so much money right two even the Ethereum Foundation is going to like is is

supporting this L2 thing um and if you're not super keen on the so me and Kane call it the the Ethereum communism the vibe right it's then yeah then you

go to salon if you want to ship [ __ ] if you want to if you if you're fine with nihilism if you're if you money money money then people went to Salana. But at

the end of the day, the reason why people chose these other things is like a very big mix of financial incentives and vibes. And really like nobody

and vibes. And really like nobody including anyone in Ethereum nor the Ethereum Foundation was saying you should build on ETH. Today I think it's

different. Most L2s at this point

different. Most L2s at this point I would not have faith are going to continue to exist in their current form.

Think about it. you because if you're building something on chain, you want people to be there. You want the network effects.

It's not necessarily the tech. You want

people there. So

where do you build? I think right now if you were to take a sample of new startups that are building I would guess the most common answers are base arbitum

and uh Salana. I would I I think Ethereum mainet is pretty far behind unless you're doing something that's like asset issuance. If

>> you're doing asset issuance, probably it's on Ethereum.

>> If you are wearing a suit, you're on the Ethereum layer 1. If you are anyone else, if you're a consumer crypto, you're on Salana first and then Bass second.

>> I think even DeFi, I think most new DeFi applications are not on Ethereum L1.

>> Do you think that the base so like two three weeks ago base they did a big sort of pivot thing too, right? And like Zora left the consumer. Yeah, that's right.

Zor left towards more DeFi. Yeah.

No more Queen, you know.

>> I didn't see it.

>> Yeah.

To to additionally expand on Salana, but they didn't leave base.

>> No, no, but then they had this U-turn thing. It was a very I thought it was I

thing. It was a very I thought it was I couldn't tell a marketing stunt or like Yeah. I was like something was I was

Yeah. I was like something was I was like >> this is hopefully this is the end of the >> Every time David comes on, we talk [ __ ] about Zora. I feel like it's kind of a

about Zora. I feel like it's kind of a pastime now. [laughter]

pastime now. [laughter] >> It was super weird though because I was >> It was very confusing. I And I was just like this is the weirdest reaction to base dumping coin.

>> Okay. Well, thank you. I'm also confused now cuz I didn't see any of this. But um

>> yeah it was very so anyway so that's in my opinion this is if I'm gonna build something on chain arbitum maybe but like polygon opt

>> I mean to to to your point what are the largest categories right now that people are excited about we talked about stable coins it's pers and prediction markets even talk to salana people they bemoone the fact that there is no good perex on

Salana they're all like oh how do we get an actually good perex on salana what is the second largest perex it's lighter it's a L2 on Ethereum I just checked they've never tweeted about it. They

never tweeted about Poly Market. Like,

what the [ __ ] are you doing? You have

nothing for the actual categories people want to invest into you. Builders are

excited about there. It's all this other random old crap that they're promoting and talking about. And so, it's like just so like tonedeaf. It's like, you know, you I I don't know. It just it's it's kind of insane to me.

>> Yeah. And I think that, by the way, when you when you talk like cuz so on the other show, right, it's me and Kane and Luca. Luca explicitly says that like he

Luca. Luca explicitly says that like he loves Salana because he felt supported by Salana people, the Salana Foundation and then there's like a few other orgs

around the Salana Foundation and he was like they would network with me, connect me like I wanted to ship, they weren't

chilling to me and I 100% get that. I

just don't think I think that uh there are also downsides to that and today Ethereum if you have faith in the fact that like it literally can't stop you

and is not going to stop you and if you have faith that it's going to continue to like basically scale and get cheaper and get faster, ETH is a pretty damn good place to build today because you know it's going to be there and you've

like all the risk is basically gone, right? They're not going to rug you.

right? They're not going to rug you.

They're they're not they're sorry they're not going to create a partnership with you, right? But they're

also not going to rub that partnership in a year. And I think that that's incredibly important, especially where we are at in the market. I don't know.

That's just me though.

>> I mean, look, if you're if you're a startup, you are not shopping around for who's not going to rug you, you know, like maybe if you're a big institution and you are, you know, issuing platform, that's all you care about is who's not

gonna rug you. No. If you're a startup, all you care about is just the first person to give a [ __ ] about you because by default, nobody gives a [ __ ] about you because you're a startup. Why would

anyone care about you? So,

>> it's true.

>> There is a little bit of I don't think it's zero like you guys are just coming.

>> Obviously, [laughter] obviously, if you're going on like some way, you know, if you're if you're thinking about building on uh I don't know, scroll or something, then yeah, okay, you're thinking about platform risk. But if

you're if you're thinking about arbitum or bass or Salana, you're not worried about platform risk. Like I just don't talk. Founders never tell me that

talk. Founders never tell me that they're worried about platform risk on any of these platforms. Like it's it's just there's a fake story. I've never

heard it.

>> Right. And like the idea that Luca is is pleased by the experience that he has from the Salana ecosystem to me is what is missing from leadership from the EF

of founders come and they get support not just from the EF but they get support from like a culture of people who are about growth broadly speaking

and like the the Salana community like love Luca and they'll talk about Luca and they'll tweet about Luca and and like they'll broadly support each other and support builders. And that is a

culture that Ethereum used to have because we were the only game in town.

And now Salana really has that much more than us. And Ethereum is far more

than us. And Ethereum is far more selective about it because it is not a a layer one for cute fuzzy penguins. It is

a sanctuary coin to protect people from authoritarian regimes. And that is what

authoritarian regimes. And that is what this statement of this document is. Once

again, >> well, so look, I I I want to defend some element of this, right? Because I think it's not surprising that a incumbent is going to behave differently from an upstart, right? So take take uh the

upstart, right? So take take uh the Facebook marketplace, right? So back

when the Facebook marketplace first started, top app on it was Farmville.

And then you've got, you know, Zinga Poker and like all these kind of social casino type games. And they're all pretty unsemly, right? They're not

really super great things to be beating your chest and talking about how you're improving the world because they're all they all do kind of suck and everyone knows that and they're appealing to the seven deadly sins, right? I think it's reasonable for Ethereum to say like

look, we're not going to advertise pump.

fund on the main Ethereum account even if pumped. fun exists on Ethereum

if pumped. fun exists on Ethereum because it's just not a good look and like we're trying to play to a bigger audience than every like you know if you're an upsur chain if you're you know

monad or maybe even if you're Salana you're just playing for trying to get on that big stage and like Salana's now on the big stage and and Salana doesn't advertise pumped up fun either right go look at go look at salon account how often do they talk about pumped off fund

they don't they don't talk about it in fact the pumped off fund people complain that Salana doesn't support them uh and that's why they're now also talking about multihoming so the reality is like it's not unique to Ethereum that they're

not trying to associate themselves with these kind of unsemly aspects of crypto culture but there but I do think that there's a far cry from okay you won't

retweet pumpf fun to you won't retweet anybody who's not basically a nonprofit right or like who's not just you know some kind of values aligned okay I'm building a a zk self-s sovereign thing

for agents it's like okay this has like two users anywhere and this is the thing that you're retweeting right so I I think there's a middle ground that the

EF is has been encouraged to find and is resisting arriving at that middle ground and I think people would take that. You

know, I don't think they're expecting you to become Salana or to become like a startup, right? And I don't think it's

startup, right? And I don't think it's appropriate for Ethereum to take on that kind of risk posture, but >> I just they are doing this [ __ ] They're like retweeting virtuals. They're

retweeting some like memecoin openclaw account. Like they they just highlight a

account. Like they they just highlight a bunch of random [ __ ] no one uses um because they're idiots. So yeah.

>> All right. And by the way, it's just like really >> tell us how you really feel, Tom. Tom,

we had to wait 45 minutes to get like how you really feel.

>> Okay. All right.

>> I here I have it. I have the advice though, right? Here's the thing. There

though, right? Here's the thing. There

are issues with the EF with Vitalic with with there are downsides. If they go and they shill pump or anything else that's like super degenerate and potentially

illegal. There are issues. There are

illegal. There are issues. There are

there are right. However, there are a lot of ways to support builders and what they are building and the fact that they are building without shilling the token

and the product and the thing like the underlying thing. You can support the

underlying thing. You can support the fact that people are doing cool things and that support I think means so much to startups. It means even more than

to startups. It means even more than like a retweet of the the thing or whatever, right? because oh they see me

whatever, right? because oh they see me right they see what like I'm doing and they think it's cool and for me I know

the EF specifically when they see you it is a deep level of support that is unmatched because it's like okay we're

actually doing something like so cool right that like so technically novel so tech whatever like it's in it's in a different vein

And I think if the EF found got creative, they would have no problem doing this and no problem with with the downsides of shilling [ __ ] >> Here's what I would do if I was if we're

just talking about the Twitter narrowly the way that the EF Twitter account can support or the Ethereum Twitter account can support. It should take some of

can support. It should take some of Ethereum's biggest su successes over the last couple years, some of the newer successes. Morpho comes to mind, Athena

successes. Morpho comes to mind, Athena comes to mind, and I would tweet out milestones. Morpho milestones of like 1

milestones. Morpho milestones of like 1 billion deposits of of capital into Morpho. And then I would take the crops

Morpho. And then I would take the crops part of my mandate and I'd be like crops uh censorship resistance $1 billion dollar dollars of censorship resistant

assets deposited into Morpho unruggable assets and I would apply it to my mandate framework that I just wrote. And

I would go down the list of the most successful like maybe not early stage because who knows it might turn into a pumped off fund and we don't really want to support unsavory stuff. I don't

really know, but like at least like the medium tier and and top tier successful examples on Ethereum. And then I would espouse the way that those startups fit

into crops or the way that crops supported those startups, especially if we can get the privacy too. And then

that way Ethereum can support its own ecosystem. We can encourage development

ecosystem. We can encourage development and growth and startups to have successful economic outcomes. And we can always put it through a lens of Ethereum

cippher punk values on the Twitter account. And that is just on the

account. And that is just on the Twitter. I I hope we can like apply this

Twitter. I I hope we can like apply this broadly where growth in the lens of Ethereum's values, the crops values is

good and that's what the EF should should do to promote stuff.

>> Yeah, I agree with that. I agree with I especially agree with like it's not just the new brand new projects that need the retweet. It is like people built stuff.

retweet. It is like people built stuff.

They scaled it up. They leveled up. They

made it more whatever they hit whatever it is. I think that that's massively

it is. I think that that's massively important. And I think a lot of what

important. And I think a lot of what we've seen just over time and and what the EF rejects, right, is this very very

increasingly short-term thinking. And I

think that that's one reason why the EF has been hesitant to like sort of support basically anything.

>> I I will say though the duel of that is that you only support things that are so long-term that their probability of success is basically zero. So then your kind of expected value of support is

zero close to zero also [laughter] >> in the sense of like a lot a lot of the like identity for agents type of stuff and like stuff that has is like still very far from realistic

>> and then giving you know I remember how people got mad from like DevCon last year about like how the road map is five years you know like and like it was like five years for this thing. I kind of

feel like there's a little bit of like there's also this too long term like it there's a Goldilocks amount of time to be kind of talking about and like if you

project too far it's like at some point it's pure religion and less like practical re realizability right so there's like kind of a a duality of

these things you go too short term fine it's like unsavory legally reputationally etc but if you go too long term also you're not the long now foundation like you are trying to build

a product that people use like it's there is a difference >> I mean look I I actually defend the EF taking very long horizon I mean I think the reason why people objected to the

5-y year road map was that it's like you don't you don't have 5 years to scale I don't think it's that there was a plan that encompassed five years it was that it was going to take five years to scale to L1 and I think that's like

[ __ ] no we're not waiting five years you're going to lose the game but the idea that like Ethereum should not be thinking in five year chunks I They have hundreds of millions of dollars.

They absolutely >> I don't mean that way. I don't I don't mean that way. I mean I mean the point of like some of the companies that are promoted especially in blog post.

>> Right. Right. No. So that I obviously agree with that.

>> That part is like oftenimes companies that not only have no users or like working but they like are working on a technology that's like probably too early. So like those startups are not

early. So like those startups are not are like usually the ones that haven't you know are they certainly need support but I think like it's like a different different thing than like they're high

you know it's like [snorts] highlighting you know you know a a decentralized stable coin with like so little liquidity that it can dep with thousand [clears throat]

dollars of trades >> and the and saying like okay all the centralized stable coins on the chain are bad and doomed is like there is kind of like a little bit of like that part.

I don't personally get some kind of like we've tried so many times >> on on the the other ones and actually they've caused more financial losses to

people than the high-risk DeFi in some ways. So like the thing that has kept

ways. So like the thing that has kept people's money safe has been the centralized stable coins for better or worse, right? Like I'm just empirically.

worse, right? Like I'm just empirically.

So it's like you can't totally say they're useless and shitty and whatever, right? they have done something for

right? they have done something for [snorts] the ecosystem in keeping it alive.

>> Yeah. So there's stuff like that where I'm like I always find I don't can't like map those two things.

>> Yeah.

>> I think this is part of the contradiction that also is at the heart of the EF which is that it's it's it reminds me a little bit of the Chinese government in that like the Chinese government calls itself socialist,

right? Like nominally it's supposed to

right? Like nominally it's supposed to be a socialist country and yet in many ways one of the most capitalist countries in the world. That's why

they've become such a successful manufacturing powerhouse, right? And so

in the same way like you know Ethereum kind of espouses this kind of cocktail party socialism talk and yet like Ethereum did an ICO it had venture

backers like it and and and it it almost like the EF itself seems to some extent and obviously this is this has lessened over time but they kind of think it's like better to be an NGO or to be a

nonprofit or to just be like you know working on ZK tech than to build a product that people want and to launch it on Ethereum and the reason why ETH is valuable the reason why the EF treasury is valable The reason why like all of this experiment, the grand experiment

can continue on is because people are out there to try to make their fortune on Ethereum like people are not most people are not building on Ethereum because they are wanting to build a sanctuary. They're building on Ethereum

sanctuary. They're building on Ethereum because they want to create something valuable for other people and they want to make money and it's okay to just accept that.

>> I I think there is a sense in which the long-term vision of the sanctuary is fine and good, right? Like everyone

who's been in crypto long enough, you were always kind of 10 years ago there was no or a little more than 10 years ago. There was really no other reason.

ago. There was really no other reason.

You weren't unless you were like I want to just do play Satoshi dice or like whatever the the Ponzi scheme of the 2014 flavor was. But most people I think

who are like really in crypto or not were like more focused on these value alignment type things. And I think there is a sense in which that it makes sense to have those, but it doesn't

necessarily make sense to like promote things that like only touch the extremes of those values, right? Cuz like that's a small surface versus the whole ecosystem. And somehow like I think

ecosystem. And somehow like I think that's where the fight is, right? Is

like do we only focus on the boundary like near the frontier of this vision which might be shrinking you as the world changes or do we like try to capture how this intersects the rest of

the universe? I don't know if that's

the universe? I don't know if that's where the fight is Tun because I'm gonna like sound like I'm I'm a broken clock here, but like to me the fight is to to

articulate what H said, which I which I agree with is like you have the values, the the the the crops, the censorship resistance, the decentralization, the security, the privacy, the cipher punk stuff that Vitalic really really likes,

that EF really really likes. That's one

half of the equation. That's Ethereum's

soul. And this document, the CF mandate was like, here's a a a reaffirmation of our vows towards Ethereum's soul. And

then you actually have the Ethereum body, the Ethereum economy, which is unis swap, which is Morpho, which is maker DAO, a all the things that like

kind of pay the bills. All the things that produce me that like incent people to stake ether that get this economic flywheel going. and USDC and USDT also

flywheel going. and USDC and USDT also which I think that's the one they like don't even >> the stable coins that that love love Ethereum all the all the things that got

attracted to Ethereum because of Ethereum's values represent the body of Ethereum and you have a soul which is Ethereum's purpose its values its crops and then you have the body which is the

economic engine and these things turn on each other and they create a flywheel and hopefully they they grow bigger and so like I don't know if the fight to ruin is like which projects do we

promote? Again, like beating a dead

promote? Again, like beating a dead horse here. The fight is like some of

horse here. The fight is like some of the Ethereum leadership doesn't agree that we need the body at all. Like it's

actually just >> Okay, I mean that's fair. That's fair.

If if that is actually what it's saying that that's I I I just don't know if I can maybe I'm like not trying to read too much into like intent verse what is written.

>> I just don't see that [laughter] exactly there, you know? Like I I agree that maybe you can you can definitely infer that, but I'm >> I don't know. I like to T's point earlier

>> other people build on Ethereum all the time and are successful doing it in spite and like probably never interact with EF and like that I feel like the fact they can do that has already proven out something, right? And that's the

thing is that like I don't know and maybe it's just because my personal experience like dude I was literally running I was literally in the middle of like

the biggest earliest Ethereum things non-stop like Vitalic didn't know who the hell I was like today I don't even I don't know if he knows who I am right it

doesn't matter though like that's what makes Ethereum great if you build something >> no no no but at the at the time it didn't matter because there was no one else. [laughter] There was nothing else.

else. [laughter] There was nothing else.

There was nobody else to compete for your attention. But like if you were

your attention. But like if you were building my crypto today, okay, and there were all these other teams that were out there like Vitalic doesn't know who you are. He doesn't give a [ __ ] He's off tweeting, right? He's he's, you

know, whatever getting into arguments about writing essays at that writing essay, >> writing beautiful essays and every other blockchain out there is fighting for you

and saying you're amazing and I love your startup and I'm you know what I'm going to give you money. I'm going to help you hire a team. I think that you're awesome and we and you know Ethereum does not deserve your talents.

>> Are you really going to tell me that that doesn't matter?

>> No, it doesn't. If it doesn't matter, why are they doing >> it% 100% matters? And I think that like my biggest issue with the last few years is that the the entire ecosystem,

Ethereum and Salana collectively for different reasons, as if they were fighting, right, said there's no future on Ethereum. Wherever

you're going to build, don't build on Ethereum. And I think it was the most

Ethereum. And I think it was the most absurd thing that I've ever experienced in my entire life. It was absolutely hysterical. It was so ass backwards. I

hysterical. It was so ass backwards. I

gave David a lot of [ __ ] because I was like, "How the hell are you talking about Etha's money when literally nobody is choosing to build here?" Okay, but we we're at a different point now. Okay.

And I Yes, right now people are still going to build on Salana. That's fine.

But I think that like I don't know if I was the EF, I would be focused on one exactly what they're focused on, which is like the core of the platform has to be these things. If it is not then

everything else falls apart, right?

Because anyone can build here. You can

build the most government simpy thing that you want to the centralized thing.

You can build that on Ethereum and literally nobody can stop you and you can be successful. And then number two is that how do you support builders?

What can the EF do to support builders?

And I think that it goes way beyond the tweets. I think it's the networking. And

tweets. I think it's the networking. And

if the EF doesn't want to directly network with people or for people, they just have to connect people, right? Like

they just have to have a few people that go, "Yo, you are of this uh degenerate thing that we don't like, but I know this other degenerate over here that I

also don't like and I'll connect you and now you have a support group, right?"

Like that's what we always did. That's

what Defi Summer did, right? That's what

all the early builders over the summer, they weren't going to the EF. Sorry,

this just like super funny. Robert was

not going to talking to the EF to build a compound. Okay, he wasn't like none of

a compound. Okay, he wasn't like none of them were. They were all trying to

them were. They were all trying to survive. They're all almost out of money

survive. They're all almost out of money and they're all sitting there.

>> I will tell you, I don't think he's ever really talked to them >> ever in many years of being >> and and that's the thing. But every

single company that made it through that bear and then de and then exploded during DeFi summer, they had each other, right? And there were enough people and

right? And there were enough people and there was enough sort of community support around them and it didn't matter and it doesn't matter today that the EF wants to be whatever they want to build

or if they if they want to be cyberpunk, that's fine. You don't have to. You can

that's fine. You don't have to. You can

still be successful here and nobody can stop you. And that's what actually

stop you. And that's what actually matters because everywhere else I don't think that that's like maybe it's a very very very longtail risk especially for new startups but I still think that it's

a risk when you're choosing where to build.

>> None of these things are are binaries.

So like yes, it's it's amazing that we can build like you know multi-million dollar billion dollar companies on Ethereum without ever talking to the EF with the data that we have coming out of like you know people that were building

in 2019 and into 2020 when DeFi summer happened in 2021 when the NFT mania happened. Ethereum was the only game in

happened. Ethereum was the only game in town like people were going to go and did go to Ethereum because they basically had a monopoly on smart contract block space. So there's some

like anomaly in the data there. We also

do know that culture matters and even in decentralized ecosystems culture is set from the top down and that ripples out into the whole surrounding community

whether it's a centralized project like Binance or a decentralized project like like Ethereum and we do know that we do have data that the vibe of Ethereum

which I'll claim is set from the top impacted builders decisions as to where they chose to build. So yes, you can still permissionlessly choose to build

on Ethereum, but it again it's going to go back to was it in spite of the disposition and the culture set from the top of Ethereum or was it in alignment

with that? And I I wish that it was more

with that? And I I wish that it was more in alignment with what the vibe set in these vibe documents is. So, I I I want to I I think I agree with most of

what Tay said, but I I disagree with a couple pieces in particular. And one of them is this idea that like the EF doesn't matter. They're this kind of

doesn't matter. They're this kind of artifact of stodgy old Mandarins living in an ivory tower and who cares what they have to say. And it it actually does again coming back to the Chinese

government analogy to clarify this. It

does matter. H it 100% matters. However,

like as a builder who has built on Ethereum for a decade, [clears throat] right?

It doesn't matter. That's in my >> Okay. So, I'm I'm gonna take my summary

>> Okay. So, I'm I'm gonna take my summary as from the builder's perspective. From

the builder's perspective, you should be able to get the [ __ ] over it and build your own startup and just move on. And

like, why are you so fixated on what's happening in this nonprofit in the sky, right? I mean, that's effectively the

right? I mean, that's effectively the the argument.

>> So, as a builder, you should be empowered by the fact that like nobody can stop you. Go build your heart out.

And like totally >> rightally >> as the Ethereum Foundation, you guys need to get a heck of a lot better at empowering builders, [clears throat] >> right?

>> Yes.

>> Okay. So look, [laughter] I think I think that's a great sales pitch to entrepreneurs. Okay.

entrepreneurs. Okay.

>> The reality is that it's not being heard right now.

>> Like when I go to look at startups, most of them are not building on Ethereum mainet.

>> And it's just like I mean just how how many of the startups that you can think of that launched in the last year launched on Ethereum mainet? Yeah,

that's a small portion of it. That's the

issue.

>> So now, now the question is like, okay, how does that issue get solved? And I

think part of it comes from the fact also that relative to five years ago, right? Five years ago when you're

right? Five years ago when you're talking about when compound was created and my crypto even farther back than that, like the the reality was that there just weren't that many voices. And

because there weren't that many voices, the EF also mattered less at the margin because most people like think about you know consensus and think about uh you know the people who are the early L2 creators before they'd even built the

L2s they were all part of the Ethereum tent right in a way like the Ethereum voices were a lot louder and more they were they were more consistent than they are today. The reality is that now

are today. The reality is that now everybody has a bag okay everybody has gotten somewhere. Everybody's become

gotten somewhere. Everybody's become someone and because >> everyone who's still around >> everyone who's still around. Sure.

Everybody's still around. Um, and so like everybody like there aren't that many people now. Even like listen to Joe Luben. Joe Luben's pimping Lana, you

Luben. Joe Luben's pimping Lana, you know, he's got his own stuff going on.

Like he's not he's not, hey, go build on. He's like, yo, come build on.

on. He's like, yo, come build on.

>> Isn't that just more a problem with like the L2 just construct?

>> No, it's not a problem. It's a problem with like capitalism works. No, this is how capitalism works is that like over a long enough period of time, it is on you, the organization that was entrusted

with the hundreds of millions of dollars to keep the the keep the [ __ ] thing going.

>> It's not on us. It's not on everybody else.

>> This was Donrad's point. Donrad when

Donrad retweeted the ETH mandate article and he said the the the problem with Ethereum BD is everyone has their own self-interests and we are just copy and pasting the same structural pattern that

the layer 2's offered when we create a vacuum of power as like we don't want to do this thing Ethereum we don't want to scale we'll just leave it up to the free market and then we have 20 competing standards all with our own

self-interests because there's no direction or leadership when it comes to growth both being done by the EF. Now,

there's a little bit of a difference there where crops and like the whole cyberpunk stuff, we we need to scale Ethereum in order to do the the cipher punk stuff and we don't need to do BD to

do the cipher punk stuff. And so,

there's a little bit of a difference there, but it's the same structural problem of the EF doesn't want the responsibility, so they're leaving it up to the free market. And the free market is not organizing. It is not organized

around alignment around what is good in the best interest of Ethereum which is when there are market failures. You need

the top-down agency entity to insert its influence to the best of its ability to pro provide a coherent direction which the EF has in this document is stating it does not want to do. That said, I

still I do resonate with Tay's point which is almost one of kind of heroic empowerment of the entrepreneur which is um there's also a line from Chinese history about the government which is

that uh heaven is high and Beijing is far away which is a way of saying that like hey there may be some power that be but it's very far away and it's focused on other [ __ ] and like they probably

don't care what I'm doing and so even if the EF doesn't like what you're doing if you're running pump. On Ethereum mainet they're not going to stop you. No one's

going to stop you. And in fact, even if you're doing Salana, no one's going to stop you. As a matter of fact, they are

stop you. As a matter of fact, they are doing it on Salana and no one's stopping them. And so the reality is that yes, as

them. And so the reality is that yes, as an entrepreneur, I completely agree with you. It doesn't matter that much whether

you. It doesn't matter that much whether the EF is doing a good job or a bad job or whether it's communicating this or that. For the most part, almost every

that. For the most part, almost every blockchain that's efficiently decentralized gives you massive power to just do what you want to and build your own uh protocol or business or whatever it is

that you want to do. And I think that's beautiful. But that does not release the

beautiful. But that does not release the EF from their stewardship over the Ethereum community. And that means more

Ethereum community. And that means more than just being a priesthood and protecting the values of Ethereum.

That's not all you need to protect. You

also need to protect the growth of Ethereum because there's an economy that you're stewarding alongside a ethical system that you're stewarding.

>> Yes. Agreed.

>> Yeah.

>> Okay. I feel I feel a little >> That's fair. I I think I think I didn't h I didn't have I I was not educated enough to make such so many inferences together. Sir, for [laughter]

together. Sir, for [laughter] >> I just kind of like >> I don't know that we're more educated than you. I think we're just more worked

than you. I think we're just more worked up than you are.

>> Yeah. I just kind of am like this has happened so many times the like it just feels like it keeps rotating. I don't

know. I

>> It does feel like Groundhog Day.

>> Yeah. I don't know. Somehow I'm like, haven't I seen this story before?

>> Right. Right. It's like they piece it's a vibe stock. We all interpret it like everyone interprets it slightly differently.

>> But but actually you know what's interesting you guys you guys were talking about like what has been the most like where are builders going? What

have been the like successful platforms in terms of like things where people build something successful. I mean the interesting thing is it's like things that are much more restrictive than

smart contracts like HIPP 3 where it's like a particular subdomain like right that's where you're seeing like that's where you see like people going and like competing on building stuff and I do just wonder if there's also this natural

thing where like if you're really general purpose you know like inevitably there's this move back and forth between special purpose and general purpose and we're just kind of in this current market cycle where it's like super

special purpose and all it takes is like one innovation in composability for people to suddenly like oh [ __ ] I got to go back to the the shared state and

there's some type of like everyone is it's a bare market in shared state or something and like that's why everyone's so worked up about this that's like my thesis for you guys.

>> Yeah. I mean, I I wish more than anything that we saw more people building more applications and like things for me to do because yeah, I can

go do pers and stuff. It's just not that's not really my game. I thought

DeFi summer was like way more fun even.

And and then you have prediction markets which are there's some days where they like I'm super on board, but it can't be the only I'm sorry. It can't be the only thing.

>> Yeah. Yeah. I mean, look, I I I I described it to someone the other day as trading corn futures is not as fun as trading corn themed tokens, you know, >> literally. So, it can be silly, it can

>> literally. So, it can be silly, it can be fun, it can be experimental. Like,

that is the vibe that that that we've sort of lost right in the last couple years. And I don't think that Salana has

years. And I don't think that Salana has that vibe. I think that like it's too

that vibe. I think that like it's too hyper financialized and too nihilistic.

I think Ethereum still does have it. And

I think that perhaps that's one reason why I'm not as like morally opposed to the the sort of like these vision statements is that the ecosystem

naturally trends towards like a a certain thing. Um and like the EF being

certain thing. Um and like the EF being over here, even if we reject their vision, it does like pull things back and then you're going to end up landing in like with things like DeFi summer

with things like the actual like the blue chip DeFi things with things like NFTTS, right? where yeah, it's I don't

NFTTS, right? where yeah, it's I don't know get it's get it's it's very casinoy, right? But it's not off the

casinoy, right? But it's not off the freaking deep end of nihilism. And so

then you have innovation and stuff that can come out of it that's much more like net beneficial in the long term, right?

Because still here >> arguably like stable coins wanting to be used by everyone in the world owes it to DeFi proving that it was it worked, right? Like that it was useful and you

right? Like that it was useful and you could use it. there was like a people understood what blows up, what doesn't blow up, dot dot dot, right? And like

>> I think the problem is that lag between the onchain native people using it and like your local bank or even like a revolute using it is like turns out to

be like seven years, not like not like a year. Unfortunately, it's like the

year. Unfortunately, it's like the opposite of AI where it's like uptake is instant.

>> Yeah. Well, I think I speak for all of us when I say that Ethereum was my first love in crypto. It was really what convinced me to come into the space more than just Bitcoin. Bitcoin was cool.

Bitcoin was, oh, it's a great financial asset, but Ethereum was like, "Oh my god, this is going to change everything." And so, I think it's

everything." And so, I think it's >> I didn't see you as a seed oil and red meat only kind of person, but that's just >> No, it never quite never quite got there. But, um, it's because I feel that

there. But, um, it's because I feel that kind of deep like love and allegiance to Ethereum. It's kind of like watching an

Ethereum. It's kind of like watching an old friend of yours like become more and more religious and start to get a little crazy and you're just kind of like, "Oh, no. This seems like may maybe you really

no. This seems like may maybe you really feel that this does seem bad for you."

Like I don't know how to describe it, but it does seem bad for you.

>> That's how I feel a little bit seeing what's happening.

>> I feel similar.

>> Yeah.

>> So, I think we can end this podcast by by realizing Hib and David are going to clearly start a new podcast where they can both focus on their >> No, no, we need a counterpoint. That's

the problem. We need a counterpoint. So

Tate, you're invited. And then um Tom, we can bring you in as like the the Grinch who just shits [laughter] on.

>> All right. Beautiful. Okay, with that I think we're wrapped. Thanks everybody

and we'll see you guys next week.

>> Awesome. Take care, guys.