The Director of ‘Hamnet’ on the Oscars and Her Midlife Crisis | The Interview

I have been terrified of death my whole life. I still am so afraid.

life. I still am so afraid.

[music] Khloe Xiao is an anomaly. She's one of cinema's most distinctive and distinguished directors, making films that are strikingly original and full of

artistic risk-taking in an era when Hollywood is increasingly risk averse.

Her latest film, Hamnet, is up for several Academy Awards, including best director and best picture. And it's

already won two Golden Globes where Xiao's acceptance speech for best drama was an ode to vulnerability.

>> The most important thing of being an artist is learning to be vulnerable enough to allow oursel to be seen.

>> Xiao's characters are often painfully vulnerable.

>> Are you married?

>> I am, but my husband died.

They're wounded misfits and soulsearching outsiders confronting deep personal loss like in [music] Hamnet an adaptation of Maggie O Farerrell's historical novel about the

death of Shakespeare's young son as seen through the eyes of his wife Anas.

>> I see you in London working with your father.

>> Xiao herself is an enigmatic [clears throat] presence hardly the sort of hot shot personality we often associate with big-time Hollywood directors. [music]

directors. [music] And yet, she's reached the pinnacle of an industry still dominated by mostly [music] white men. Here's my

conversation with Khloe Xiao.

[music] >> Chloe, thank you for taking the time to come speak with us today. I appreciate

it.

>> Thank you for having me.

>> Yeah. Um, so I want to start with a an award season question.

>> Your eyes just got glazed over a little.

I'm sorry. [laughter]

>> No, it's excitement.

>> Yeah. Yeah, that was a look of excitement. Yeah. um

excitement. Yeah. um

>> the animal in the jungle.

>> There's obviously a lot of um award season buzz around Hamnet and by the time this interview comes out, we'll know what nominations the film did or

didn't get. But but right now the thing

didn't get. But but right now the thing that I'm curious about is sort of what like the whole awards rigomearroll stirs

up for you because I imagine it could involve feelings like uh of envy or or competition or it involves salesmanship or or gladanding which I feel like are

not necessarily the kinds of feelings or ideas that are interesting to you or come naturally to you. So, how do you deal with this moment?

>> I I love that that's almost like a a form of compliment you just did.

[laughter and gasps] You think of me a lot more highly than >> maybe you like doing it. I don't know.

>> But I think the all those quite um basic emotions, none of us can escape it. And

especially artists, so many of us, majority of us of us started telling stories because we didn't have the easiest childhood, right? So when your

work right which is the only way that you can seek connection and validations since you're a little child is being compared

and um judged. You could go as far as feeling a rejection of that is a rejection of who you are and whe your

ability to belong to a tribe or be safe or be loved. you could go that far and it does go that far to me at times but what I like about it I don't know if if

if people know is that film making is quite of a lonely process at least speaking as director um you go you're like a ronin you know

you're like a a samurai >> a wandering samurai >> yeah you're getting hired to do jobs and jobs and jobs and then you create this family and then you have to leave again

so a worse season, especially if someone like me who came up from independent films and having to go festivals and labs after labs to even get money to

grants and to make my first film, I was exposed to a lot of my fellow filmmakers over a decade ago. So to be paid

[laughter and gasps] to be brought together and to see each other and to hang out at these, you know, events and and roundts and stuff is actually really

nice. I try to ask them to let me come

nice. I try to ask them to let me come to their set and just shadow people. I

think there should be a system where directors get to be on each other's set, you know, because we never otherwise how do we keep learning? What do you think

someone could learn from watching you work?

>> How to embrace chaos.

Pretty much Hamnet was created that way.

For example, when Hamnet died, spoiler alert. [laughter and snorts]

alert. [laughter and snorts] Don't think you can spoil this one.

>> And >> it's a historical fact.

>> Yeah. Someone died, someone wrote a play. Um, Hamna died. And on that day,

play. Um, Hamna died. And on that day, Jesse and I would not talk about, we don't really talk about the scene coming in. She would in the morning, she would

in. She would in the morning, she would do a lot of fever writing about her dreams and then she would pick some music. And so, as soon as I get to set,

music. And so, as soon as I get to set, I I will just put the music on repeat.

So, the whole set sort of get harmonized to the vibration she wants to be vibrating in. and

vibrating in. and we just go we just other than a conversation about which which setup we want to do, we just go in there and do

it. And so when she let out that very

it. And so when she let out that very gachal scream of grief, um that was not

something that was planned from me nor her. But I do believe it didn't just

her. But I do believe it didn't just come from her, it came from the collective, the village. And and when that happens, I can feel I can feel it

and it's the most exciting thing for me as a director because I go, there's no way any of us could have thought of that and because that is truth happen in the moment and I will bottle that up and

I'll defend it in the edit and I'll make sure it goes into the world. You know,

it's so interesting to hear you talk about um sort of the uh practicalities of directing for you because um you know, often when I've uh heard other

directors talk or or read about other directors, there's um >> there's sort of recurring uh images or tropes of of how a director behaves that are, you know, it's like I I want to say

I want to say France it's Francis Ford uh Copela who said this. I I could be wrong, but he he compared being a director to like being a ring master of a circus that's inventing itself every

day. Or sometimes you hear um directors

day. Or sometimes you hear um directors uh you sort of compared with uh generals or something like that. And and these are all sort of very um like to my mind

kind of like alpha uh aggressive uh macho metaphors for how what for the job of directing on too >> and but it's so not what you're

describing and I I just wonder if if you could talk a little bit about how you handle sort of the the the necessary leadership aspects of being a director

and making a movie. You know, I like I like thinking about myth. If you think about in myth and in in in archetypes, what what are the types that can lead?

>> Yeah.

>> Traditionally, yes, you have a general, but you also have a priestess.

Both can evoke the desire for people to get excited to follow their vision.

doesn't mean that the example you give of what Francis you know said that he is that then I'm this both of these two

archetypes is within ourselves.

So there is a general inside of me but there's also a priestess inside of me.

It's just depends on the scene. It

depends on the film and some filmmaker have a bit more priestess energy in them than generals but both can lead and both are needed.

>> If you only have the priestess is total chaos black hole.

>> Yeah. If you only have the general is total order and just one beam of light and nothing else. And but I like to be in those two extreme polarities as opposed to constantly kind of have my

hands in everything, controlling everything, but also not fully controlling everything.

>> No, I like to be total surrender and then total control.

>> Um I I have kind of a historically inclined uh question for you. Um uh so you know in uh Shakespeare's time the

time period in which Hamnit is set >> um >> you know the the death of a child was a much more common occurrence

>> than it is now at least in in uh >> oh rich western countries. Um,

>> and I assume that as a result of that, um, people just had very had a different perspective on what it meant to lose a

child or different, uh, >> feelings or or expectations >> and and >> I'm just curious if if that's something

you or how you thought about that with your film and and if you think it's possible to sort of recreate

older emotional perspectives.

>> That's a really good question. I think

about that all the time. Maggie said

that she doesn't believe it's possible that the grief is any less.

>> Uh Maggie O Farerrell, the author, >> the author. Yeah. She said that to me from the start and I I tend to agree

with her because even though we're things are so different, but our biology

hasn't changed and the design that we have to want to protect a child would not change. However,

the stories we attach to that pain which is suffering might be different because they also have a different love relationship with the unseen back there.

>> Mhm. [clears throat]

>> Right. You know, I recently trained um to be a death doula >> really >> in the UK. Um just I just finished level one training, foundational training and

in one of the training sessions we had to um research indigenous cultures from around the world how they deal with

death and dying both today and also in the past. And you can see that the grief

the past. And you can see that the grief of losing a loved one doesn't change.

Right? However, the societal understanding of what death is and what the and the space it gives to grief and

the ceremonies and and and how is how how it's um embedded in the culture has shifted so much and the medicalization of death,

>> right? And also in the modern world when

>> right? And also in the modern world when death is no longer seen as a natural part of uh life because now it's about saving staying alive as as long as we c

as we can. There's almost some kind of shame around death.

>> Yeah.

>> Because it's weak or something or it shouldn't happen.

>> So there's so much of that starting being attached to death and dying that actually cause suffering that's not natural to the human condition. So, I

think that's different.

>> Um, I want to rip up all my questions and ask you more about wanting to be a death da.

>> We have another session in the future.

>> Um, why are you interested in becoming a death doula?

>> Um, [sighs] because I have been terrified of death

my whole life. I still am so afraid. And

because I've been so afraid, I haven't been able to live fully. I haven't been able to love with my heart open because

I'm so scared of losing love, which is a form of death. So, when you're in your 40s and you kind of go, which is great, by the way, midlife crisis is the best

thing that can happen to you because what it does is is you're on your way to a rebirth.

You can't run from this feeling. Your

body is changing and and you can feel death. And I because I'm so scared of

death. And I because I'm so scared of it, I have no choice but to start to develop a healthier relationship with it or I'm not going to make I'm not going to make it. The second half of life

would be too hard.

>> So it's a it's a way of facing your fear. is a way of understanding because

fear. is a way of understanding because making hamnet helped me understand that I just know there is another way. I just

have a feeling that whoever designed this have decided that you will be born and then die. You will love deeply but then

then die. You will love deeply but then lose love. It's almost like a cosmic

lose love. It's almost like a cosmic joke. We're the only one in this na in

joke. We're the only one in this na in nature that have a problem with that process.

>> Yeah.

>> Right. And so but we >> we're aware of awareness in a way that no >> we we must be designed to know how to die. It shouldn't be this terrifying

die. It shouldn't be this terrifying that I can't even live. That must be not the intention.

>> Well, it's not this terrifying to everyone.

>> I hope not. But but I just I do know that a lot of the issues we have in the world comes from ultimately that deep fear of death.

>> Are are you a afraid of your own non-existence? Are you afraid of the

non-existence? Are you afraid of the pain of death?

>> I think it's impermanence.

>> Yeah.

>> You know the impermanence. So in Hamlet, right?

>> Yeah.

>> It there's a line that goes all living things must die passing through nature to eternity. If in your life eternity

to eternity. If in your life eternity doesn't exist, right? Because you didn't grow up with spirituality or religion.

So the eternity part is out. You also

lost your connection with nature, even your own body, your own body wisdom.

Then passing through nature part of that sentence is gone. All you have left is all living things must die. That's no

fun, you know. And that's like wait, well then what's the point, you know?

So, so, so you're sort of separating separated from the oneness.

But for me, I feel separated often from that oneness. And that illusion of

that oneness. And that illusion of separation makes me afraid to connect, makes me afraid to create freely or even just live in the way I want to live.

>> You you uh alluded to a a midlife crisis. Do is that something you're

crisis. Do is that something you're currently experiencing or >> I'm at the I'm kind of at the [snorts] So if if it's if it's four

seasons, I'm at the end of winter, beginning of spring, I like I'm coming back up.

>> Ah, >> so so so actually a better metaphor. I I

like metaphor speaking of metaphor because it makes more sense to me. um in

the cryis period I have passed the deepest part of the decomposing from the caterpillar let's put it that way which was extremely

uncomfortable about a year and a half of just sitting there having every part of who you used to be grinded down.

>> Yeah. What can you tell me what did that look like for you? It looks like cannot getting out of getting out of bed is hard, you know, being interested in anything. Um,

anything. Um, just getting through the day because everything that I used to use to distract myself or everything that I thought is what I wanted in life and

everything will be fine if I get them or everything that I uh thought is who I was no longer is. So, I'm sort of at the end of that

>> and by the way was what saved me in many ways to have that film during that time.

>> Um, and you said you you struggled to uh connect with people, struggled to feel love. Um,

love. Um, that's very sad. How did how did >> you have no struggle? I mean, I I have tons of struggles in my life, but when

you talk about um not feeling like are you talking about having problems with uh feeling love in relationships with your family? I'm just want to know more

your family? I'm just want to know more about what >> you know about that.

>> If you're terrified of being abandoned, >> yeah, >> right? Cast out the tribe. then you

>> right? Cast out the tribe. then you

don't make an effort to belong or truly love from a place of vulnerability and trust, right? Um,

trust, right? Um, and that's really sad because we I don't think we're designed to be alone to to do it alone. were designed as like uh

like wolves, you know, like like pack people and tribe.

>> But the but once you belong and to be cast out your tribe, it's the most painful thing you can experience. Or or

to be abandoned by people that you know that you love and that that love you doesn't even mean intentionally. Yeah.

You know, someday could die.

>> Um can I take a stab at something? You

tell me.

>> Yeah. I I I can discern [laughter] you.

>> I know my publicist will come in and throw a bottle at you, one or the other.

>> Um, you know, when you talk about being cast out of the cast out of your tribe or >> I'm discerning.

>> You're discerning?

>> Yeah.

>> Um, well, what do you mean?

>> I know what you're going to say.

>> I'm going to ask about uh family stuff.

>> Oh, okay.

>> Yeah. Um, you grew up in China and then moved to >> the United States when you were 14.

>> No, actually I moved to the UK first.

first.

>> Yeah.

>> Was there some sort of familial separation there that's related to sort of the casting out you're talking about?

>> I can't really go into it. Um, but I will answer it the best I can. is [clears throat] that it is an investigation I have been doing

the last four years of where does that come from you know and I think it's a lot older than I feel like even in this life >> huh

>> I really [clears throat] do you know you started by asking me about a worst season [laughter] >> right >> that feels like a long time ago >> but it's relevant because what where

what is this fear of failing >> what is this fear when my film you know gets rejected by the critics. What is

this feeling if the box office is terri you know what if I lose every you know what is you you you is I look around at an awards show right and I look at the

tables and then when the winner is announced and I look at the faces of the people who didn't win >> and I try to feel like what are they feeling >> and at best it's like that person must

had an easier childhood at worst it's like I don't belong me, I might as well just die.

>> Do you think people sitting around the tables at at award shows are are having that feeling?

>> I think there's a few probably and and probably more than that.

>> Yeah.

>> Because then, you know, what if work is your sense of belonging, you know? What

if you feel like you don't belong anywhere but with your family? Then what

if your family is gone?

>> Yeah.

>> Right. So any kind of belonging it makes me realize any kind of belonging has a risk of being cast out. And then you have to ask

this. You might roll, you know, people

this. You might roll, you know, people might roll their eyes when when when I say when I say this, but that kind of home, the one that cannot

be taken away is the one within. And it's the and is the one that you connect with the divine with this great mystery that we you have

different different culture have different word for it and the the earth below us, right? that cannot go away and if you do a a ceremony or a plant

medicine you feel that that wness and you have no fear in those moments right that's why you know warriors would take medicine before they go >> have you done Iawaska ceremonies

>> uh no comment no I have not done a ceremony I have experience facilitated uh plant medicine uh healing journeys

>> by my therapist right And I've experienced that kind of oneness that when when all the stuff goes away, you you really do feel like you're one with

everything and truly no fear, you know, and and so I think the bigger question I I you know

to to to to answer your question about did it happen when I left China to go to school, you know, or did it happen when a film of mine didn't work out or did it

happen when Yeah. I'm trying to locate the the source of the feeling that you're talking about.

>> And that is I tried that for many many years because we have to understand why.

>> Yeah.

>> Right. We must know cuz that's how we feel safe. We must understand why this

feel safe. We must understand why this thing happened.

But I sort of got to a point where I I realized that even the need to understand where it came from is a form

of control and it's a it's a form of fear. And I let that go a little bit and

fear. And I let that go a little bit and now it's more about can I sit in that?

And and and it maybe that is the great paradox of what it means to be human.

you know it is to constantly hold that tension of to be or not to be >> to [clears throat] love or to be abandoned.

>> This is a long way for me to avoid your question because I think there this could be interpreted very simplistically.

>> Um if I were to try to pinpoint one moment in my life that this made me and I think we try to look at trauma that way is that

>> because once you pinpoint it then you can fix it. for this is not like that.

>> Um, >> sorry I'm not giving you all your >> That's okay. [laughter]

>> I was also just thinking you brought up the to be or not to be the stupid thought in my head was like oh that William Shakespeare really had some good ideas. [laughter]

ideas. [laughter] That guy, dude. That guy. I have to say I I really >> underrated.

>> Underrated. I used to think, oh, you know, he just writer, you know, [laughter] >> but then I think he is actually like a like a

druit, you know. I think

>> I really do. I think he's tapped in to the unseen because the symbolism, the archetype that he creates, it's been used in in in depth psychology, you

know, it's so re mirroring all the great myth all around the world. You go, he must >> must be on his finger on something.

Yeah. Yeah. Um

>> or maybe there were there were mushrooms growing in [laughter] in >> Stratford.

That was >> I mean >> he was actually just high out of his >> I got to say some of his plays you [laughter] think he must be on something >> um >> I didn't say that by the way I did not

>> Shakespeare for the record Shakespeare is not going to have a problem with >> to suggest William Shakespeare took mushroom this director of Hamn did not say that [laughter] for the record

>> but maybe um so the the question I want to end on for this part of the conversation is a actually I was just I was thinking about this too in the you know there's this

there was a a German sociologist named Max Weber um from like the late uh 19th century early 20th century and he had this idea that the modern world has

become disenchanted >> that you know because of >> science and rationality >> um that we've lost a sense of enchantment about the world that that um

>> you know people who lived uh sort of in a preodern It was just their birthright was to have a sense of enchantment about the world, >> right? Awe.

>> right? Awe.

>> Awe. Yeah. Or, you know, you might you might uh one might have felt that, you know, uh spirits were present or ghosts

were present or um and >> but my my hunch is that you you do experience enchantment. Is that true?

experience enchantment. Is that true?

And also h how might one cultivate a sense of enchantment?

>> Beautiful question really. Um I I have [clears throat] deep feelings about that question and it is a passion I have now to sort of search

for bringing back some tools of cultivating that enchantment for everyone. Everyone should have access to

everyone. Everyone should have access to that. Not just people who are artists or

that. Not just people who are artists or people who went to school to study and I I do have to Plato and Aristotle did great things but

I do have some problems with them as well.

>> Right. I think they talk >> hot >> take [laughter] >> I think I feel right again I know very little uh I won't claim I know but my my

instinct uh makes me feel that they were great they were students of great mystics

and then for whatever reason they they seem to be leaving out of out of the the mystery part out of a lot other teachings.

Instead, they did keep it for themselves, you know but the bedrock of Western civilization

became about rationality and and reason as opposed to mystery,

you know. So I feel because of that

you know. So I feel because of that suddenly only certain people have access

to to the divine to the unseen to the underworld however you want to name this realm where great messages comes from

you you shouldn't have to pay money and buy t-shirts to feel you're connected to some kind of bigger thing because A pop star is the only person who has that

connection with with the divine.

Actually you yourself waking up in the morning has those tools to feel that kind of aliveness and enchantment. So

then creativity, imagination and this access to something beyond became something that only if you

have certain skills to learn in a school do you have access to. Yeah. And and so as a result there's a spiritual hunger in modern life. Doesn't matter how we have so much

life. Doesn't matter how we have so much more. And yet there's a deep loneliness

more. And yet there's a deep loneliness and and and soul level of hunger and emptiness that I've have felt in my life

and still struggling with. And I think it's because we we forgot some that we we have that ability.

>> Chloe, thank you so much for talking with me today. I really enjoyed it.

[music] >> I did too. Thank you.

>> On the interview, we talked to our guest twice. So, after [music] a few weeks,

twice. So, after [music] a few weeks, Chloe and I spoke again about what she's learned in death duela training and the movie that changed how she sees herself.

>> Hello, David.

>> Hi, Chloe. I've been looking forward to speaking with you again. So, thank you for for making the time.

>> Of course.

>> I felt like our first conversation kind of was really uh the energy kept accumulating. We got uh deeper and

accumulating. We got uh deeper and deeper the longer we went. And now that it's been a little while since we spoke, it might be a little difficult to uh get right back into it.

>> Well, well, when we're on set, if that happens, we we take a minute and we drop in physically.

>> How do you drop in physically?

[laughter] >> How do you drop in physically?

>> Yeah. Okay. So,

put put your hand in front of you like this.

>> Yeah. Yeah, it doesn't have to. You

don't have to lift it all the way up, but And then just like move towards it slowly and stop when you can feel the other hand.

>> Move my hands close together.

>> Yeah. And just very slowly. And then at some point you're going to feel the energy of the other hand like there's a ball in there.

>> Do you feel it?

>> Sure.

>> Yeah. Exactly. It's right there. Close

your eyes.

Yeah. And then can you like let that energy between your hand just grow a little bit? You're going to feel that

little bit? You're going to feel that your palm getting warmer. Move a little bit like you're you're um forming a ball.

Yeah. Like Dragon Ball Z. you know,

you're about to fire [laughter] [gasps] and then just really, really slowly bring that energy into your own body,

into your heart.

>> All right.

>> All right. You open your eyes.

[laughter] >> All right. Let's Let's just do it. Let's

just do it.

>> We're ready.

>> We're ready. So um I I just want to ask one more question about your adolescence or your your formative years. And now I I know the um the director Terrence

Malik was important for you or is important for you and I I have a distinct uh memory of being uh 16 years

old and seeing uh Terrence Mallik's Thin Red Line and then uh Wes Anderson's Rushmore maybe within the same week when they came out in the theaters. uh back

then and it was a totally uh >> mindblowing uh week of movie going for me were bo both because I didn't really

understand that movies could do what those two movies did and and also because I felt like um something about both those two films in different ways

they they showed me something that I already understood about myself but hadn't quite really um been able to articulate for myself or or seen

depicted in in a film and and um as a result I I think it really both those films I can say kind of changed in some ways changed who who I was at

the time and maybe still now and and I want to know if you have any similar experiences with film where where you

saw films and then after seeing them sort of understood yourself better.

>> What was it like when you said you feel like it made you understand what the things that you couldn't quite >> but what was it?

>> Uh with uh thin red line there was a um uh sort of a a miss have you you've seen that movie, right? So it's Yeah, of course. [laughter]

course. [laughter] >> Sorry.

>> So it's a Terrence Malik World War II.

The simplest way of describing it would be Terrence Malik's World War II. I

think it's one of the greatest war films ever made. Um and but despite being a

ever made. Um and but despite being a war film or maybe because of being a war film, the the thing that um sort of touched me so deeply was that there was

um sort of a a mysticism in that movie and a a transcendental feeling about the natural world and and um a transcended

visual poetry to that film that I hadn't seen in in a movie before that that I just felt I connected with so deeply.

And then with um with Rushmore there was a um the the combination of uh of alienation

and um but alienation combined with just the the openheartedness of that movie was something that I I certainly had

been feeling back then and then again just to see it sort of represented so so beautifully. Um, yeah,

beautifully. Um, yeah, >> like I said, felt like it made me understand something about about myself.

>> Oh, that's really beautiful. I think it was one car way happy together.

>> A beautiful movie.

>> Yeah. and of course Terrence Malik's um tree of life [music] and um the new world but happy together it was when I was

younger and it's what you describe your your experience I so I mean that is the

reason why we have art And storytelling is not trying to teach us something that we don't know. It's trying to help us remember

who we are to bring back bring us back to the source.

Yeah. So for me that film made me realize that this deeply uncomfortable

tension I feel in my body. This yearning

that sometimes feels like it's just going to consume me.

It is actually my [snorts] this loneliness, this isolation

that film captured.

on the other side of it is actually my deep deep yearning for connection and for relatedness and for love and

that there's nothing wrong with it. And that film is full of mystery. So is the thin red line. Yeah.

mystery. So is the thin red line. Yeah.

And that's why when we're going through our greatest heartbreak and most difficult time, we look for we don't look for facts.

We look for poetry because it allows us to stay in the mystery.

>> Um I have to tell you a quick little anecdote about uh Tree of Life. Um

that's that's the one that has the the flashbacks to like the time of dinosaurs right?

>> Yeah.

>> So I I saw I remember seeing that movie in uh at uh the BAM theaters in Brooklyn, the Brooklyn Academy of Music, and uh >> there was an older couple sitting beside

me who I'm sure bought a ticket for that movie because they thought it was just a Brad Pitt movie. They didn't really understand

movie. They didn't really understand what they were getting into and they were they were sort of muttering to each other the whole time. And and then there's one scene in that film where like a a a predator dinosaur sort of

puts >> uh puts its foot on the chest of a of a smaller dinosaur, >> but then lets the smaller dinosaur go and you're you're

>> because he was already dying. It was

dying. It's like that dinosaur has, you know, shown an act of mercy. It's like a pretty wild wild film. And and the lady beside me just says, "Morris, what is this movie?" [laughter]

this movie?" [laughter] >> Got up and walked out.

>> Oh, that's such a big moment that scene for me. Yeah,

for me. Yeah, >> cuz he is he is suggesting that um grace, you know, is that is it is the natural

state of the universe and that's what Terry believes in. I mean, I've seen that film I don't know how many times as

many times I've seen Happy Together. Um,

yeah, I have never met him, >> never spoken to him, >> but on January 1st this year, I got a

phone call from a unknown number. Well,

a a number I don't recognize. Um, I

thought it was the dog workers I was interviewing.

[laughter and gasps] I said, "Hello."

And then I hear this very soft voice and goes, "Oh, hello. This is Terrence." Oh

no.

>> I was thinking Terrence which Terrence for the first 30 seconds I was still wondering if it was actually him as he's

talking about Hamn.

>> Oh [snorts] what you >> I can't share that but >> give me the gist because Terrence Malik you know famously he doesn't give interviews. He's sort of I mean as far

interviews. He's sort of I mean as far as the media is concerned is reclusive.

Yeah, it was surreal to but but I I I I won't share what he said but I can share with you. This is something that go back

with you. This is something that go back to the city right line. I said to him that I feel

um that I come from a lineage that is found not necessarily like I'm still trying to get back to the lineage of storytellers from my own culture from

the Chinese culture. I'm slowly working my way there. Um but I didn't have access to that just life circumstances

you know I came to the west [snorts] and I was even as a storyteller wasn't sure

what's my lineage and so he um his films allowed me to become a part of a lineage

but I feel that I come from his lineage.

you know, even though he never told me as a student or he didn't I didn't give him a choice. I told him, but I've did it is very significant as a storyteller

because you feel like you belong somewhere.

>> It's also uh nicer to say I come from his lineage rather than I rip him off with all those shots of wind gently blowing through natural landscape.

>> That Yeah, that's really funny you said that. I said, "There's a fine line

that. I said, "There's a fine line between what I just said." And I pretty much copied a lot of yours. [laughter]

He says, "Oh, no, no, that's not um I know I I have no shame around that. I I

I that in Eternals, the sequence of the creation of the universe was

very humbly uh inspired by the sequence vtory of life. you'll see exact shots.

>> There are two ways through life.

Um, you know, you you uh there's something I I want you to try and help me uh understand a little bit more about you where uh you know, you talk about um

sort of your uh [snorts] desire for uh connection and and uh but then you you also described yourself as

you know someone who who uh has never been able to give love fully. Um, a and I wonder is it that like you're you're

able to express that side of you through your work but not so much in in life?

Like you don't you don't neither your work nor nor you seems like someone who has uh seems like the like their

evidence of someone who has uh a problem with connection. [laughter]

with connection. [laughter] Oh, you can't judge book by its cover.

[laughter] No, you Well, thank you. That's really

kind by the way.

But you know, you make the work that you aspire to be, >> right? And you you you if you see in

>> right? And you you you if you see in Hamnet, well couldn't express his grief, but he could write a play about it, right? And then create such an intimate

right? And then create such an intimate environment for people to grieve together. But he himself

together. But he himself maybe hoping be through the act of doing that he himself could grieve and to give

him that moment at the end of the film is the grace I'm giving to myself say hey you worked pretty hard too um so

maybe hopefully your work can give it back to you the vulnerability that's required to love

fully to be loved loved fully.

>> Um, >> and and also it also >> I can see in your eyes the desire to to

figure out like out of care for me as a human being to figure out um a definition so that we can make things

better. you know, like it's and meaning

better. you know, like it's and meaning meaning um if if I could >> um I guess what I'm trying to say is

unfortunately I've learned and I hate that discovery so much I try to resist it

every day is that we just sort of wandering between the two extreme which is to be able to like really um be

in the moment and feel and then to love without fear and then total just like annihilation. Just

wanted to completely disappear into the end of the world where no one can find me and I start over and I never have to

worry about any of this.

I find myself just pingponging between the two. And I used to think something's

the two. And I used to think something's wrong with that.

But at the end of the midlife crisis, I feel like I I I I came to the conclusion at this moment that's actually the natural state to be in. We just never

been to taught how to ride this wave.

[snorts] >> Can I say, you know, I I uh because I I like talking about this kind of stuff. I

feel like I know uh I have a sense of of what you're talking about, but I could also very easily imagine somebody listening to what you're saying and thinking, "What the hell is she talking about?" So when

about?" So when >> the easier version, okay, fine.

[laughter] The easier version is that the easier version to to digest is is, you know, in nature everything moves and

that's really scary because we want to hold on to something. Listen, I'll give you another fun little adolescence story since >> that stuff seems to be interesting to

people is that I was so afraid of change and the cycle and movement and being present to to them. I was so

obsessed with Sims, playing Sims. >> Oh.

so that I would spend hours and hours and hours and hours playing Sims so that I could control these

virtual characters and [snorts] even within Sims I couldn't just let things be like these car I would tab on

it so that they will fall in love and or they will have this job I would just control everything with such extreme to

regulate myself. Gosh, I played Sims for

regulate myself. Gosh, I played Sims for so long, years of my life. [gasps]

>> I'd like to ask also about um the work that you're doing as a death doula, which you had had mentioned before.

>> Training >> training training.

>> Yeah. I have not I have not started doing that work.

>> So, you're just learning about it.

>> Yeah. Yeah, I finished I completed the foundational course and then the next stage would be the diploma and then during that stage I believe I could practice but with a mentor. H

>> have you ever been with someone at the moment of death?

>> Yes.

>> Can you tell me?

>> I have. Yeah. Yeah.

[sighs] It is well I I can't tell you in general of what that is because from what I learned

in training that every experience is different but the biggest thing I learned both in that experience and also in the training is

that it's a solitary experience.

It is the they say, "Oh, well, I'll die alone." It is true. Even when you're

alone." It is true. Even when you're surrounded by loved ones, it is a very internal solitary experience just like

birth as you're going through the birth canal. And when you see that it is a

canal. And when you see that it is a very individual journey, then there is a solace to that. You know, it

made me realize I don't have to accumulate and try to make life decisions so that I won't die alone because it's so scary to die alone. It's

not true.

I know that for a fact, but I don't try I I'm not telling that to anyone else.

You know, everyone has their own journey to to get to the But I do not want to spend my life preparing for my death.

You know, I want to live and if that decision led to me being completely on my own in the moment of death, I know that won't make a

difference for me in those last moment than being surrounded by accomplishment, security, uh loved ones is still going to be an individual experience. My

experience is that your experience too.

>> That that's also my experience. my uh I was with my mom when she died and my mom it was it was interesting because I was there with uh a couple other close

family members there as well and my mom wanted us to all be there and just knowing the type of person who my mom was. I would have thought that she

was. I would have thought that she wanted us to all maybe have our arms around her or something like that, but it was so clear um

sorry it was so clear just in the few moments before it happened that she she went somewhere on her own, you know. So,

um I I also uh had had the same have have witnessed the same sort of thing that you witnessed.

>> Wow. how special it is that you were there to be with her in that moment.

>> Yeah. I mean, I certainly don't see life the same way [laughter] after that. You

know, you learn Exactly.

>> You learn something. You learn

something.

>> Exactly.

>> Um Oh, how do I segue out of that? Let

me let me find Oh, accomplishment.

That's what I was [laughter] going to talk about >> that that thing.

>> Yeah. Um but the the thing that I wanted to ask about um accomplishment is that um you know you you

earlier when we spoke you know we we talked and and it was mostly in the context of you know uh uh Hollywood awards and things like that. you know,

you you you touched on things like um um you know, like fear of rejection or or

wanting validation from peers and and it was interesting for me to hear you um talk about those feelings because purely

from from the outside you're you're you know an Oscarinning director uh seemingly in the prime of of

her career. Um and even you have have

her career. Um and even you have have those kinds of difficult feelings that arise from your professional life. Um

and uh I I just wonder is there um I is there any relationship for you between

like professional success and personal satisfaction? Ideally,

satisfaction? Ideally, ideally your sense of self-worth is not defined by how many awards you win [laughter]

[gasps] or how much money your film makes. Ideally or you know what what the

makes. Ideally or you know what what the critics say about your film ideally.

ideally, >> but as we have been talking about the paradox, but but I'm trying to learn to be more

human, [snorts] you know, because the reality is you're going to be sort of dancing between the two. It's like a wave, right? And then that can happen in

wave, right? And then that can happen in one night when you go to a worst show.

My goodness, it's like the ups and downs that are going. But imagine if you could go to those things and actually enjoy

like a surfer every part of the wave and you actually like can you have pleasure in losing and and being

criticized and failing. I have been investigating that because I refuse because I know I know now at 43 years

old 50% of the time it's going to be that other side. 50% side is going to be great. The other 50% is going to be

great. The other 50% is going to be And I want to find pleasure and

joy and all in the too. So in that um so I'm working on that.

>> But how how is it going for you? Um

learning to enjoy the >> I had a lot of you know, in my life. [laughter] And so I don't call it

life. [laughter] And so I don't call it I call it like the compost. It's

the same thing.

Um, but you know, it's not something you can just say it. You have to learn the tools. Plenty people are trying to

tools. Plenty people are trying to figure this out because plenty people come to terms with like, okay, half of my life is going to be in the compost and I don't I want to learn how

to compost. I don't want to numb myself

to compost. I don't want to numb myself or buy a new bag or take on a job I don't want, you know, or fall in love with somebody like I don't actually love

just so that I could avoid the feeling of sitting in the compost or the crystas. I want to learn uh how to do it

crystas. I want to learn uh how to do it so I make good life decisions for myself.

>> Chloe, I I think I've asked [laughter] you everything I want.

>> Thank you.

>> Thank you very much for taking all the time to speak with me. I appreciate it.

Thank you for being very graceful and and [music] open.

>> I'm Lulu Garcia Navaro >> and I'm David Maresy >> and we're the hosts of the Interview and audio and video [music] podcast from the New York Times.

>> Every week we interview fascinating and influential people from all walks of life.

>> Subscribe to our YouTube channel [music] so you'll never miss an episode.