The Exercise Neuroscientist: NEW RESEARCH, The Shocking Link Between Exercise And Dementia!

in this box is a real preserved human

brain named Betty and I think you should

hold it oh my God it's wet and now we're

going to go through all the tools and

tricks to make your brain as healthy as

it could be are you ready Wendy Suzuki

the neuroscientist and professor at New

York University whose firsthand research

on the brain is helping to improve

memory learning and higher cognitive

abilities in humans let me start with

exercise all the research shows the more

you exercise the more change in your

brain we notice every drop of sweat

counted and the best kind of exercise

that you can do is what about things

that we consume food drink and alcohol

if it's on the meditarranean diet go

ahead

[Music]

coffee and then my memory is not great

most people feel that but there's four

things that you can do to make memories

stick number one is is it true that if

we have less friends then our brain will

shrink yes loneliness damages the brain

can you say if someone's in love in the

brain yes in the side here a lot of the

reward areas are activated doesn't that

mean then that if we don't fall in love

the love part of my brain gets smaller

and would that make it more difficult to

love in the future that's a great

question so Wendy do you have any brain

routines absolutely so every morning I

like to oh and then I do the most

powerful tool that you can do to protect

your brain from aging and

neurodegenerative disease states which

is

we've just hit 6 million subscribers on

the D Co um so me and my team would like

to do something we've never done before

as little thank you and we're calling it

The dire of coo subscriber raffle and

here is how it works every episode this

month we're going to pick three current

subscribers at random and we'll send one

of you a 1,000 voucher one of you

tickets to come and watch the D SE

behind the scenes live with our team and

one of you will have a 10-minute phone

call with me to discuss whatever you

want to talk about if you're a

subscriber you're in the raffle thank

you from the bottom of my heart for

allowing me to do something that me and

my team love doing so much it is the

greatest honor of my lifetime and I hope

it I hope it continues uh off into the

Future Let's get to the

[Music]

episode you just said to me that much of

your work is focused on making sure

people have big fat fluffy brains yes

why does that matter it matters because

a big fat fluffy brain brain is a

healthy brain and my whole first book

healthy brain happy life was about how I

learned to use all the tools and tricks

and magic of neuroscience and psychology

to make my brain work better and I so

needed it at that moment my life got

better I got happier it is a pathway to

a happy life I think having a very

healthy big fat fluffy brain do you

think people appreciate the importance

of that that brain no I think they

ignore it all the

time and I think that is part of my uh

part of my message to everybody that

that the human brain that is the one in

your head right now is the most complex

structure known to human kind not

Einstein's brain not Marie K's brain but

the one in your head and when you think

about that it gives you more of a self

appreciation of all of the computations

that is taking for me to see you and

appreciate your face and be able to

remember your face next time I see you

when I go to my diary of a CEO podcast

and and choose an episode all of that is

is such a complex structure um you start

to appreciate your own kind of brain

functioning more I think that's a very

important thing to do why don't we

appreciate our brains because we

appreciate a lot of other things yeah we

spend a lot of time on our like our

muscles yeah our ABS yeah

I think that that's a great analogy and

part of my goal is to kind of shift the

focus from focusing on certain body

parts to focusing on what our brain is

doing for us what it can do for us and

what we can do to change your

environments to get to that big fat

fluffy brain to get it healthy to get it

happy to get it growing if I achieve a

big fat fluffy

brain how would my life be different I'm

saying me Steve Bart I'm I'm a podcaster

I'm I'm an entrepreneur relationships

I've Got Friends girlfriend family how

would I show up differently if I was

able to make my brain big fat and fluffy

yeah so uh let me start with the two

areas that we know respond really really

well to things like meditation and

exercise those two brain areas are the

hippocampus critical for long-term

memory your ability to form and retain

new long-term memories and for facts and

events and the second brain area is your

prefrontal cortex right behind your

forehead critical for your ability to

shift and focus attention um it's

important for your personality for

decision making can you show me on there

there's a you brought absolutely I

brought a human brain you have bring

that you have a model of a brain as well

I have a model of the brain okay let's

start with the model of the

brain so here is a model of the human

brain so there's a front part and a back

part this front part is right behind our

forehead that's the pre Al cortex

critical for the ability to shift and

focus attention also a part of the brain

that is very responsive to what you

bring into your life exercise actually

really helps the prefrontal cortex

meditation helps area 10 of the

prefrontal cortex which is right in the

very front right here the second brain

area that you will benefit from when you

make your brain big and fat and fluffy

is a structure called the hippocampus

which is which is very deep in this

lobe deep in this lobe right here which

is the temporal lobe the hippocampus

hippocampus means seahorse and the

hippocampus is critical for your ability

to to form and retain new long-term

memories for facts and events you have

one on the right and you have one on the

left so for you Superstar podcaster what

do you need to do you need to remember

all the details of that guest that

you're sitting in front of you need to

be able to focus what did say what do I

want to uh ask next and how do I want to

come back to those things that is a

combination of what your prefrontal

cortex is doing for you and your

hippocampus is doing for you so I submit

that you when you do these things that

we know from Neuroscience it are going

to make your prefrontal cortex and your

hippocampus big and fat and fluffy you

will be better at doing your job as a

podcaster I am better as a dean and a

professor of Neuroscience and and

teaching in class for example is where

I'm using my prefrontal cortex in my

hippocampus the most most of us would

benefit from these things that make our

brains big and fat and fluffy was there

a point in your life where you had a

personal Epiphany or Revelation about

the brain that made you so passionate

about the subject absolutely absolutely

so this story starts when I was in the

middle of getting tenure um at New York

University so it takes six years uh you

have six years to P prove yourself as a

scientist and do something

groundbreaking and if you don't you're

fired so no big deal no pressure there

and I decided to only just work work

work work I didn't have a lot of social

interactions I was just working and I

just just threw myself into work and uh

I was getting burnt out and um I decided

to go on a river rafting trip to Peru by

myself because I had no friends so i' go

on the river rafting trip and and it's

great it's beautiful we're river rafting

we're we're camping on Aztec burial

sites and it is just spectacular um but

I realized that I'm the weakest person

on this trip and when I got back after

this wonderful you know two weeks in

Peru I said I never want to feel like

the weakest person on a trip like that

again and it was so great to to be

moving and to be exercising so I decided

I'm going to go to the gym and I'm going

to continue this physical activity at

the gym and somehow it stuck I had I had

let myself go not no exercise at all and

when I started going to the gym

regularly I noticed that that great mood

that I found in Peru every day during

the river rafting trip stayed with me I

think everybody in my lab loved it when

I was going to the gym and I started to

notice not only I got stronger I was

feeling better that mood boost that I

got from physical activity was so

powerful but then one day this you asked

me about this Revelation I had it was

one day I was sitting in my office

riding a grant which is usually

something that I have to do very

regularly but usually something that I'm

pulling my hair out it's so hard it's

very competitive I'm competing against

Nobel laurates for the same pot of money

and I had this thought that went through

my mind which was gosh writing went well

today I I'd never had that thought

before ever in my I'd been there for

five years at at NYU writing grants and

so um I um I thought oh maybe maybe I'm

just having a good day I'm feeling good

but I realized that the um the writing

seemed to have been getting a little bit

better over time I had noticed it a

little bit if I think about it and the

only thing I had changed in my life was

regular physical activity inspired by

that trip to Peru

and so I'm a neuroscientist I went to

the literature and I asked well what do

we know right now about what exactly

exercise is doing and it showed at that

moment in time about 10 15 years

ago that exercise can improve your mood

exercise actually makes your memory work

better and exercise improves the

function of your prefrontal cortex and I

thought wow that that is

amazing but the last part of the story

was was that when all of this was going

on this was after this day of realizing

gosh something's you know my writing is

better and um maybe it's exercise um I

got a call from my mom who said that my

father wasn't feeling well and that he

had gotten lost driving back from the

coffee shop that he drove to every day

every afternoon for the last 20 years

and the hippocampus that structure

critical for memory is particularly

important important for spatial memory

and as an expert in the hippocampus as I

am I knew that that was a Telltale sign

of dementia and maybe Alzheimer's

dementia but as I talked to my father

and of course we went and got him a

neurology appointment I saw that

everything that seemed to be improving

in me that is memory Focus completely

and very very suddenly uh diminished in

him his memory was terrible he couldn't

focus he was also very depressed because

he could notice how poor his memory was

and I think those things together what I

was noticing in myself about the

physical effects of U the effects of

physical activity on my own brain

function and seeing my father go through

which what uh what was a really

precipitous loss of his cognitive

functions that turned out to be

Alzheimer's

dementia made me think that the power of

physical activity needed to be explored

more deeply and by me I I was waking up

in the morning thinking about what can

we what can I do to better understand

how physical activity could be used not

just for me for my students can they

study better can they learn better can

it help maybe not my father I wasn't

sure whether exercise could help my

father at that point but as people age

that was the Revelation that I had that

made me actually switch my research

Focus from memory function to

understanding the effects of physical

activity on the brain all of this is

rooted in

a fact that was once not considered a

fact which is the idea that our brains

can change shape yes yeah this idea of

brain plasticity I only really learned

about this a couple of years ago because

I think I like many people didn't

realize that like muscles my brain

changes shape based on what I do yes and

also what I consume yes I guess yes what

is the evidence or the studies that we

have that proves our brains do change

shape yeah that's such a great question

and uh it takes me back to the first day

of my freshman year at UC Berkeley when

I walked into the classroom I didn't

know it at the time but the classroom of

the professor that discovered brain

plasticity her name is Marian diamond

and she uh was the very first female PhD

in neuroanatomy that UC Berkeley ever

gave um I walked into her classroom in

the 80s when I went to college but she

discovered this in the late

1960s um when it was thought as you said

that the adult brain can't change at all

there's absolutely no evidence for it

and that was true at the time she

thought I don't think that's true let's

let's do a simple experiment let's try

and um uh look at the effects in two

randomly grouped set of rats one that

lives in what they would consider an

enriched environment

what would be an enriched environment

well for her it was a rat cage full of

toys that got changed out all the time

lots of other rats to play with and um

lots of lots of activity I think of it

as the Disney World of rat cages and she

compared the brains of those rats to

rats that she raised in kind of a shoe

box a smaller environment they got free

food and water all the food and water

they could eat and drink but maybe only

one other rat and no toys now if the

adult brat they were all the same age

they were adults if the if the adult

brain didn't change then there should be

absolutely no difference between the

brains raised in Disney World and the

brains raised in the shoe box but she

found that the the brains of those rats

raised in the Disney World of rat cages

the outer covering of the brain the

outside of the brain here uh I'm

pointing to the outside of this brain

model here called the cortex it was

actually thicker she was she was a

neuroanatomist and she showed that the

thickness of this outer covering

actually grew what does that mean there

were more synaptic connections there in

not in the whole brain in certain brain

areas that made sense the visual

cortical area there was much more visual

stimulation in the Disney World of rat

cages the motor areas were thicker the

somata sensory the touch areas were

thicker because they were interacting in

a much more complex way with their Touch

system and that was the first

demonstration the adult brain could

change and that it would actually make

the cortex of the brain grow and now we

know what is it about the Disney World

of rat cages you know um is it the toys

should we all be playing with toys later

study showed that you get almost

identical effects just by giving rats a

running wheel physical activity is doing

all of that has the potential to change

all of that in the rodent brain and now

in the human brain didn't they find

something similar with um London taxi

drivers I always hear this I thought it

was like a wasn't sure if it was true or

like a rumor but no no no it's

absolutely true that is a different form

of brain plasticity which is something

that we all do and my students do

hopefully very well which is learning so

can learning the Streets of London which

are I can't remember the the the number

of different streets that London taxi

cab drivers have have to learn to pass

the famous test called the knowledge but

I do remember that it takes them four

years to study for this test it is

intense uh um knowledge you have to

learn all the lawful ways to get from

all the big landmarks to be a certified

London taxi cab driver and what uh my

colleague El Eleanor Maguire uh

professor of neuroscience at University

College London did is she followed w be

London taxi cab drivers during their

four years of the knowledge this test

for London taxi cab drivers knowing that

half of them were going to fail they

they were not going to make it and so

she tested them at the beginning and

asked how is your memory uh and how big

is your hippocampus identical for all

all of the uh wannabe London taat cab

drivers before they started she scanned

their brains yeah she scanned their

brains and she tested their memory okay

behaviorally

then they go through half of them drop

out they don't become London tax cab

drivers and half of them become

certified London taxic cab drivers after

successfully learning all of this now

let's see how big is your hippoc campus

and how good is your memory the people

that passed the test and became London

tat cab drivers the posterior part of

their hippocampus which is the part we

know is important for it with posterior

is back towards the back of the head the

posterior part of the hip of Campus

which is kind of a cigar shaped

structure that goes from the front part

of the brain to the back part of the

brain that back part of the brain was

significantly bigger in those London

successful London taxi cab drivers

compared to the failed London taxi cab

drivers and the memory of the successful

London taxi cab drivers were now

superior to the memory of the wannabe

London TX cab drivers that failed so

that is example of how intense learning

in a particular part of the brain um uh

we know the posterior hippocampus is

absolutely involved in spatial learning

uh that can change the actual structure

and the function how much of a

difference can we make I'm 31 years old

now yeah so if I got serious about my

brain health yeah how much of a

difference could I realistically see you

know I'm trying to figure out if it's

worth it yeah if it's worth caring about

my brain is is there any evidence within

the literature within studies that have

been done that show if I start now even

though I'm like 30 31 years old my life

will be different in the future in the

areas that I care about profoundly if I

start caring about my

brain let me be very very um um concrete

here the answer is absolutely yes first

I'm going to give you results of a study

in people that are 65 and older so

studied people that are 6 65 and older

and asked what is the probability of

getting dementia in the next six years

depending on the level of activity that

you have just right now physical

activity physical activity and they

measured it in how many walks you take

per week and if you took three walks a

week or more you were 30% less likely to

develop Dementia in the next 5 years so

ooh 30

% uh less likely to develop dementia my

father passed away of Alzheimer's

dementia that makes me sit up and take

notice but the but the thing that should

make you as a 31-year-old uh really sit

up and take notice is the larger

correlations that show that the longer

you have regular physical activity in

your life the longer you're able to

Stave off dementia the more active you

are over your lifetime um that first

study shows that it's never too late to

start you can start walking regularly

which is doable when you're uh perhaps

at that age but the longer you stay

active the bigger and fatter and

fluffier your brain will be why does

that make sense so one key piece of

information that I haven't told you yet

is that we know that physical activity

is releasing a every single time you

move your body you releasing a whole

bunch of neuro chemicals in your brain

some of them make you just feel good

serotonin dopamine noradrenaline

endorphins yeah I feel good if I go out

for a walk I feel better than if I had

been sitting here for eight hours but

the other thing that gets released every

single time is growth factors I like to

call it a bubble bath of neurochemicals

that happens every time you move your

body what that growth factor does is it

goes directly into your hippocampus and

it helps brand new cells grow GR in your

hippocampus the hippocampus is only one

of two total brain areas where new cells

can grow that's not the same as synapsis

which are Connections in the cells that

are already there but the hippocampus

can grow new cells and this is really

important because many people know that

the hippocampus is attacked first in

Alzheimer's dementia and so exercise is

not going to eliminate that disease

state but if you start with a huge

fluffy hippocampus it's going to take

that disease that much longer to

actually damage enough of your

hippocampus so that you start seeing

those telltale signs of memory

impairment that comes with Alzheimer's

disease and and dementia in general same

thing with their prefrontal cortex your

prefrontal cortex can grow with uh

physical activity that's not neurons but

new synapses can grow age and neurod

degenerative disease states can damage

cells but also take away synapses I've

got two questions on that so the first

is about dementia and Alzheimer's do we

know what's causing it no we still don't

know

no and there's not good drugs

unfortunately right now there's a lot of

links to lifestyle choices though right

yes absolutely and so of course from

based on what I just said my number one

most powerful tool that you can do to

protect your brain from aging and

neurodegenerative disease States is

start walking why do I start with that

because everybody can walk you don't

need to buy any new fitness outfits just

go out and walk more and then they say

oh well do I have to become a marathon

runner that could help too but everybody

can walk and from that study that I

mentioned in the 65y olds 30% reduction

in um the probability of getting

Alzheimer's with just walking you said

that if I go and start walking and I do

exercise my prefrontal cortex will grow

which is the decision- making center

right yes so does that mean then that if

I am somebody who is very sedentary I

don't do much physical activity that my

decision making will be worse compared

to what it could be with the same person

if they're active yes I mean that there

is that potential brain plasticity and

the Neuroscience of brain plasticity

tells us that absolutely with physical

activity uh you have great potential to

improve the function of your prefrontal

cortex and I must specify a little bit

uh the main function that is um that has

been shown to be particularly sensitive

to regular physical activity is um

shifting and focusing your attention so

being able to um listen to me while you

might be paying attention to uh the AV

guy that might be telling you something

right now so to be able to do that

effectively uh that that is one of the

things that we know is helped with

regular physical activity focus and

attention that kind of thing okay you

talked about memory as well is that does

that exist in the prefrontal cortex as

well uh there's a form of memory working

memory uh which is kind of scratch Pad

memory it's a Memory that um when we

used to have to remember telephone

numbers that that ability to remember a

Sev digigit at least in the United

States telephone number it's different

from long-term memory formation which is

memory for facts and events uh that is

dependent on the

hippocampus I feel like my memory is not

great most people feel

that why is my memory not as good as

other people because I I noticed this

when I I was with my friend in um

Thailand many years ago I think I was 21

years old and we could like leave the

house and go on our little mopeds for

about an hour yeah and he could navigate

us back home without needing satav or

Google Maps and if I go three minutes

down the street I'm lost and I always

wondered why that was is it and then

even with names and stuff I would always

he's my best friend he still is one of

my best friends for for seven eight

years we ran a business together and he

would remember every name of every

person and I couldn't I wouldn't and so

I'd always T to him and say what was

that person's name again what's that you

know and I always wondered why my memory

he seemed to have this incredible memory

and mine seems to be pretty

rudimentary I would argue that um yeah

everybody has parts of their memory that

aren't as good as they want but also

other forms of memory that they're very

good at so I would guess I've only just

met you today that you're memory for

stories and storytelling and story

progress is excellent because it has to

be for the job that you do I bet you

it's much better than your friend that

can navigate back not everybody has a

perfect memory in all the different

dimensions and and it's like our

personality some people have a wonderful

sense of humor and others don't um it is

about how our brains are wired which is

defined both by nature and nurture our

genes and you know if I if I went to uh

stand up comedy class I would probably

get funnier but um uh but there's

probably a limit to my funniness

compared to other people so there's

different types of memory yes in your

book you talk about there being I think

is it three different types of memory in

total that are formed in the hippocampus

there's lots of different names for

forms of memory in the hippocampus um

but I like to describe it as the

hippocampus is critical for our memory

for facts and and events um also called

declarative memory or COG itive memory

uh another form of memory that's

dependent on a completely different

structure is motor memory the memory

that you uh use to learn how to play

tennis or pickle ball or whatever you're

playing and it's not declarative I can't

declare how I do a backhand in in in

tennis but it is in your motor functions

and and this is dependent on the

striatum a motor related structure and

then there's the prefrontal cortex

dependent on that working memory or

scratch Pad memory keeping things in

mind so um you and I are both trying to

remember what we've just said so we can

we can link it to things that we might

say in the future one of things that I

found really interesting both as a

marketeer but also as a podcaster and as

someone that's making a lot of content

and trying to get people's attention was

as I was reading through your work it

became quite clear to me that there's a

bit of an overlap between memory and

attention in in many respects because

absolutely you were talking about these

four things that make facts or events

memorable yes and many of those things

are things that I think about as a

marketeer when I'm trying to get someone

to you know engage with something click

on something buy something yeah what are

those four things okay can we go through

them absolutely so I like to say there

are four things that make memory stick

and this is after 25 or 30 years

studying the hippoc campus and and how

memories work number one is obvious

repetition okay you you remember things

with repetition number two not as

obvious Association the hippocampus is

an associative structure it Associates

one thing with the other uh for example

your name and your face so I'm I've just

met you and I I will remember your name

and your face now but it also helps you

remember things like who's married to

each other associating the husband with

the wife uh have you heard of The Memory

Palace uh yes yes so this is a technique

that has been used for many many ages uh

to help remember things and it is a

strategy where you picture a spal

location that's very familiar to you

like your childhood home when you need

to remember a list of items you take an

imaginative walk through that very

familiar environment and place those

items in particular locations in the

environment that is associating

something really familiar your childhood

home you know every corner of it with

the new thing you need to remember and

that works uh and has worked for memory

champions for many years because the

hippocampus Associates things together

that's number two Association number

three is novelty we remember novel

things I've never been to this

particular Studio ever before in my 26

years in New York and Brooklyn so this

is a novel thing and I I will remember

coming here uh to do this podcast with

you our brains and this is where it

interacts with the attention system our

attention system focuses on things that

are novel why because it could be

dangerous if I've seen it things over

and over and over again I don't notice

them they go into the background it's

not going to hurt me any you know it's

not it's not going to cause me any

danger cliche that's why cliche doesn't

work in marketing exactly yeah and so

but something novel oo that really uh

perks people up I use that in my

teaching all the time surprise students

uh with uh an element of what you want

them to learn and they will remember it

better but the fourth one which is so

powerful and we know it intuitively we

understand this intuitively is emotional

resonance makes things more memorable we

remember the happiest and the saddest

things in our lives because that

emotional resonance is solidifies those

memories where does that come from it

comes from a structure called the

amydala that sits right in front of the

hippocampus right in the front of the

temporal lobe right here and the

hippocampus is right behind it amydala

me means almond it's an almond shaped

structure and it sits right in front of

um the kind of tube shaped structure

that is the hippocampus behind it and

the amydala is kind of infusing uh the

hippocampus and kind of getting giving

it a little jolt when it's emotionally

resonant either really happy or really

sad

you brought with you what you've told me

is a real human brain yes I did now I'm

not sure if you're just whining me up

but we're talking here about novelty and

surprise and that's right things you'll

never forget an emotional resonance

correct and as you're saying that I was

conscious that over in the corner of the

room it appears that there's a human

brain in a box so Jack is just bringing

the human brain in yes I've never seen a

human brain before you've never seen

that's why I brought you gloves so you

can hold it if you like if you like do

you have permission to if there is a

human brain in this box and you're not

winding me up did you have to get

permission from the owner of that brain

so um this was purchased uh lawfully um

by my department the center for neural

science at New York University so it is

lawfully ours to use as a teaching tool

and it does bring enormous novelty to

any situation that I go into and makes

people really think about their brain in

a new way which is why I bring it what

is in that box in this box is a real

preserved human brain named

Betty was the person who used to own

that brain called Betty no we don't know

the name of the person I named this

brain Betty so can can you tell if it's

a man or a woman no I can't ah man men

and women brains not different at all

they are but in very very very subtle

ways that we wouldn't be able to tell

just looking at the the outside of the

brain like this okay I'm ready are you

ready I think

so okay so I'm going to

open the Hat Box no way is that I'm

going pull out are you joking is that

really a brain it is a real preserved

human

brain there it is frontal lobe frontal

lobe occipital lobe for vision occipital

lobe back there and in this brain I

don't know if you can see it from over

there if I pull apart the two

hemispheres you can see how

deep the the folds of the brain the

surface is folded in that deep into the

brain which expands the surface area of

the outside of the cortex the rat cortex

is flat there's no folds humans and

elephants and dolphins have lots of

folds they have much higher capacity for

computation because of the folds that

you see in this brain it's smaller than

I was expecting really half the people

say it's smaller half the people say wow

that's that's enormous interesting is

that the the color of a brain the color

of the brain is darker than the real

brain if we opened up my head right now

um because of the form alahh the the

preservative chemical that this has been

sitting in for at least 26 years this

brain has been in my department for ever

since I got here 26 years ago I feel

like I probably should hold it I think

you should hold

it oh my

God sweat

yes so I mean that that has that defined

this person's whole life how they saw

felt smelled uh heard and thought about

the

world just right there in your one hand

in your right hand it's crazy to think

that this little thing is oh it's

different underneath yes it's crazy to

think that this little thing this

little that's the start of the spinal

cord right there that you're pointing at

and there's stuff at the underneath at

the back this that is the cerebellum uh

brain structure critical for fine motor

movement um so we wouldn't be able to

walk smoothly if you have damage in your

cerebellum isn't it interesting that

like everything as you say everything

this person worried about every thought

every memory every relationship all of

their education the school they went to

the university everything they saw and

remembered and all of their trauma y and

their anxiety and maybe their

depression everything they went through

even their last days before they died is

like captured in this little ball of

like tofu yep sits in my hand an entire

human being's existence it's true what

they watched on TV their favorite movie

their favorite number color everything

is in this tiny little bowl of

tofu it's true

oh gosh it is amazing and actually in

real life firm tofu is the consistency

of of the brain I often bring in a um

you know a block of of firm tofu um when

I demo this for students in addition to

Betty do you remember the first time you

saw a human brain I do did it change how

you think about your own brain it

changed my life because I was like I

want to study that that is the coolest

thing that I've ever seen in my whole

life and I want to study that and I want

to be just like her and um and so it it

really like okay now I I decided this is

what I want to do and it was it

was it was

life-changing I say that because we you

know at the start of this conversation

we said that most of us don't appreciate

our brain a lot of people don't even

realize it's there but the minute I had

a brain scan one day and that brain scan

really changed my life because seeing my

own brain for the first time it was the

push that I needed to start caring more

about how my decisions and behaviors are

impacting it so let's talk about how I

can make that ball of tofu in my head

super healthy super big fat and fluffy

you talked about exercise earlier on but

we didn't really dig dig into exactly

what you mean by exercise because

exercise I think is multifaceted and

definition what kind of exercise should

I be doing to make my ball of tofu in my

head

great yeah optimal mhm well all the

research shows that the best kind of

exercise that you can do is anything

that gives you aerobic activity that is

getting your heart rate up so that that

goes for you know power walking will get

your heart rate up soccer so many

different things name your activity so

many people want to say oh my favorite

activity will that work and I always

just say is it is your heart rate up

when you're doing it if the answer is

yes then yeah that that works great we

know that that level of aerobic activity

is critical because that's going to

release that growth factor maximally to

get into your hippocampus uh that will

grow those new brain cells how much so

um I have an answer to that so um we did

two different experiments in my lab one

in um low-fit people people that are

really not exercising very much at all

less than 30 minutes um um in the last

three three weeks you you've uh moved

your body and um we asked what could we

see any behavioral Improvement in your

memory function from your hippocampus or

your uh ability to shift and focus

attention if we ask you to move your

body in an aerobic way for two to three

times a week and we collaborated with a

spin class so clearly very aerobic and

what we found was in those people that

did successfully do two to three times a

week of 45 minute aerobic activity their

mood got significantly better their

memory function got better and their

ability to shift and focus attention got

significantly better so that gives a

little bit of a guideline for low-fit

people two to three times a week can

start to give you some of those some of

those cognitive changes but you don't

look low fit so let me let me answer the

question you're about to ask me with

like what about me I I exercise pretty

regularly and um how much how much do I

need so to answer that question we went

to another spin studio and we said look

we're going to give you free classes you

could exercise as much as you want in

this in this um at this studio and uh um

go up to seven times a week and the

control was just stay the same you know

you they were they were working out

twice a week at at the studio control

was the other group that were you were

testing them against yes exactly and so

what we found was

basically every drop of sweat counted

the more you exercise the more change in

your brain we noted both your

hippocampal function prefrontal function

and mood if you you were already getting

benefit you know you're already going

twice a week but the more you did the

more brain changes you got so that that

doesn't give the formula that I would

like but we were heading in that

direction which is part of one of the

questions that I want to answer but I

love to leave people with the idea that

every drop of sweat counts for building

your brain into the big fat fluffy brain

that you really

want and then in the real world again

making it super um real for people yeah

how how does that change how I show up

yeah if you allow it to should have a

beautiful effect on your mindset um that

your mindset around um

how often should I take wake up an 30

minutes early and do that walk before I

start my day or accept the the

invitation to go uh walk the dog with

with a neighbor um it's not an

obligation it is something that you're

doing for yourself it is going to have

direct benefits on that ball of tofu as

you call it in your head it's going to

make it work better and and I mean I

think the most immediate thing that I

benefit from every single day say is the

mood boost that you get from that

serotonin dopamine nor adrenaline that

gets released every time you move your

body I always think that because

obviously I do a lot of podcasting and

it's I'm super reliant on my brain being

attached to my mouth and sometimes I

notice that it's not you know what I

mean like sometimes I'm not articulate I

can't get my thoughts together whatever

yes and I always try and figure out the

correlation between what I did that day

when I have a good day versus a bad day

and I've from from your and also I speak

on stage sometimes so I've often asked

myself because I saw Tony Robbins the

speaker one day on a trampoline before

he goes up on stage I ask myself okay

should I be doing a workout in my green

room before I go up on stage for a big

talk or presentation you think I should

oh yeah absolutely what's the basis of

that in science and a science uh it's

the basis is that immediate effect so

there's three key effects that we know

happen every time you move your body

first one is mood you're going to get

your dopamine your serotonin up um

second is focus and attention so so as

single workout isn't going to make more

synapses in your prefrontal cortex but

the prefrontal cortex uses dopamine and

so um it's clear that even a single

workout can make your prefrontal cortex

work better in terms of focus attention

also very important anytime you're

speaking and the third is reaction time

your reaction time it you know motor

your you're you're working your motor

cortex when you move your body and your

response and reaction time is

significantly shorter after a even a

single workout compared to if you just

don't work out and sit sit um alone so

great great things to do a great thing

to do before you you stand up and speak

what

about

coffee I I'm trying to figure out if

coffee is good for my brain bad for my

brain I've had a couple of mixed

messages around the impact it might be

having yeah you know caffeine is a

stimulant and uh people respond to that

kind of stimulant uh in different ways

overstimulation with caffeine is is not

good for your your ability to put words

together you know this is where I turn

to a a main theme in in my book healthy

brain happy life with this which is

self-experimentation for you how what

can you titrate your coffee to see what

level of coffee is best for whatever

your podcast or you're giving a talk the

other thing that can work

similarly to coffee that that I've

started uh and that I do every morning

is um hot cold contrast showers because

that cold that you shower on yourself

after the heat um stimulates adrenaline

in you a natural adrenaline o it wakes

you up and okay it was painful the first

kind of few times I tried it but then

you get addicted to it and I have

forgotten to do it and gotten back in

the show hour just to douse myself with

cold water because I feel better when I

do that for for you know first thing in

the morning so lots of different things

that one can explore with okay on the

other side of the coin then what are

some of the central behaviors that

people do that destroy their

brain well sedentary behavior is one of

them um not getting enough sleep is

critical we haven't talked about sleep

yet sleep is so important for normal

functioning of the brain I like to scare

my students by saying that um you know

in torture situations if you deprive a

person of sleep for too long they

literally die they they they die you

cannot function if you are deprived of

sleep for too many hours in a row it's

that critical yet we don't we we happily

you know watch too much Netflix at night

and and and and get only five hours of

sleep when we could have had eight so um

what's happening exactly why is it so

important well there's um there's so

many different things I'm going to I'm

going to say two one is that we know

that in regular um um healthy sleep

there is activity in the hippocampus

that helps you strengthen the memories

that you have formed in that previous

day it's called consolidation and it's

so important if you shorten that if you

don't get enough you are not

consolidating your normal everyday

memories and second it is uh the time

during sleep when all the metabolites

all that garbage that your brain is

producing because all biological cells

produce garbage it get kind of um

cleaned up um through the cerebral

spinal fluid that that is flowing

through your brain and if you do not get

enough sleep you build up garbage

metabolites in your brain it's like you

have a gunky brain and do you feel like

I feel like I have gunk in my brain when

I don't sleep enough that is exactly

what is what is happening when you think

about um things that we consume you know

like food and drink and alcohol and all

these kinds of things is there is there

anything that if I'm trying to have an

optimal brain I should be yeah having or

not having yeah well so um I think the

most evidence is around the benefit of

the Mediterranean diet which is

basically all healthy uh um kind of

organic not organic but nonprocessed is

the word I was trying to think of things

to eat that are very very colorful there

is so much evidence about how good that

is generally for the brain that that is

my go-to like what should I eat well is

it on the Mediterranean diet if it is

then go ahead if it's too processed only

do it just a little bit is it true that

if we have less friends if we have less

strong relationships if we're lonely

yeah then our brain will shrink and is

more prone into dementia and Alzheimer's

and things like that yes we are social

creatures and um there are uh really

powerful studies that have shown the

correlation between the number of social

connections that we have including just

saying hello to the Barista at Starbucks

it's not a close friendship that you

develop over 30 years it's it's just how

many people you interact with and greet

and Longevity the more people you are

regularly interacting with the longer

you are living overall longevity but if

you go into brain health absolutely it's

also very very healthy for you it also

brings happiness so uh friend and

colleague of mine um Robert wallinger uh

studied um what makes people happy the

study started in the 20s 1920s in

Harvard and after all of those many many

many decades the answer is what brings

happiness is a strength of your Social

connections so it makes you happier it

makes you live longer and and uh yes

loneliness on the on the um flip side

causes stress uh long-term stress that

that damages the brain and uh yeah in

the long term can can make it smaller

and uh less healthy do you have any

brain routines like like a morning

routine for your brain absolutely so

every morning I like to wake up and I do

a um tea meditation which is a

meditation over the brewing and drinking

of tea and this is after many years of

yo-yo meditating I knew meditation was

good but I just couldn't really get into

it and um I was introduced to this form

of meditation um from uh by a monk who

who invited me to Tea and and just did

this silent meditation outside in a

beautiful location and the ritual and

the um um the sequence of Brewing

drinking

seeping uh re starting over again kind

of kept me in kept me in the flow and so

I start with about a 45 minute tea

meditation uh then I do about a 30

minute workout I try and do cardio

strength sometimes I do yoga sometimes I

just do

Mobility um and then I have breakfast

and then I go to work oh and then I I do

that H hot cold contrast shower is also

something very helpful for my brain

health because it it really does in me

that adrenaline boost that I get just

energizes me and I love that feeling at

the beginning of the day just going back

to that question because I want to close

off on it as well the the idea of what

would I have to do to destroy my brain

so no sleep yeah I'm GNA be sedentary

yeah I'm GNA have no friends yeah and

smoking smoking is very bad for your

health and and your brain okay um

alcohol alcohol I mean yes long-term

alcohol can cause significant and named

Brain disas diseases um moderation even

moderation now Studies have shown is not

very good and the reason why it's not

good is that alcohol disrupts your sleep

even though people drink it to to go to

sleep faster the sleep is much more

superficial and is not deep and it's not

the healthy sleep so that is uh not good

overall for your for the for Sleep um

depth and and health and therefore brain

health I'm going to eat a processed diet

to hurt my brain and I'm not going to

have a lifestyle that is novel because

we talked about learning right yes so

I'm not going to learn anything new all

of these things should shrink that

little you're not going to be mindful

also does mind is there is there

evidence that being mindful which is

like meditation and being in the moment

helps the brain it does uh there's

beautiful studies showing brain

plasticity um in the areas that are

important for focused attention

meditation the practice of meditation is

basically a practice of um enriching the

function of your prefontal cortex so you

can focus on that object either the

breath or or um loving kindness is is a

form of meditation so yes there there's

been studies that brain changes um occur

in long-term meditators that are that

are absolutely beneficial what if I'm on

social media all the time because isn't

that good for me because I'm going to be

seeing lots of new things all the time

and I'll be learning lots of new things

so isn't if I sat on a on a screen for

seven hours a day is that good for my

brain social media does that take you

away from real people and interacting

with real people yes okay then then it's

modulated by that the same thing there's

a difference and I think your brain

knows it and um look there's there's

enormous amounts of evidence showing

that the increase in use of social media

um especially in young kids uh correlate

with huge increases in depression and

anxiety levels particularly in young

girls so when when kids started getting

the smartphones and started to spend

more and more seven hours a day on

social media that's when the anxiety and

depression went up that's for young kids

I use social media as well as a tool for

business that is a little bit different

I'm not 13 years old and you're not 13

years old so so you know there there's

some warnings I think that need to go

into into that but but let me let me be

clear no it's not the same social media

is not the same as social interactions

face Toof face with people are you are

you concerned about what social media is

doing to our brains yes because we you

know I we hear those stats around you

know young young girls are struggling

most with social media and we think to

ourselves well that's because there's a

lot of like comparison and all these

kinds of things and there's a lot of

like toxic messaging and such but

if we think about the physiological

consequences of social media what it's

actually doing to our brains at a

chemical level yeah what what would you

as a

neuroscientist guess is that like is the

physiological harm to the brain not the

sort of psycholog I'm thinking about

like not the psychological okay oh my

God she's more this than me but like the

physiological harm but the psychological

harm causes stress stress releases

stress hormone that goes into the brain

that at too high and too constant a

level can start to First damage

connections and then kill cells so it's

it's intertwined um there and that that

is part of of what is happening um you

can't you know pull one one away from

the other because all you know we social

media is designed to kind of it's like

pulling the slot machine handle I pull

down on the feed and I get ping oh look

there's a nice picture and oh ping

there's notifications and comments Etc

it's that con you know I think about the

constant they say there's constant

dopamine here

they refer to is it a dopamine hit is

that's what happening when we're being

stimulated by social media or a slot

machine yes and is there is there any

harm in just a constant dopamine hit all

day every day well I would not I'm going

to answer that question by saying I

would not want to be addicted to

gambling that gambling is addictive it

it's hard to get away you you you lose

all these other things that we just

decided were all good for you including

sleep including social connections um

including exercise and I think that's

part of what social media is doing for

our young kids is not good that they're

not joining teams outside to be social

and interactive in uh in that kind of

now it seems like an oldfashioned way

but it's very very powerful way for

development um and brain health I think

I'm addicted to my

phone and I I often ask myself is that

is that a problem and from what you said

it sounds like the problem is what I

sacrifice yeah through that like

addiction to that device yes is that

that the issue the issue is I sacrifice

social connections maybe movement yeah

you know although I do work out every

day but the brain is smart enough to

know that there's no substitute for real

human connections absolutely absolutely

and that's going to make me what I'm

trying to I I need you to help me scare

me out of this phone addiction that I

think I have but I know many other

people have as well

so that is going to limit your potential

for brain growth for for brain

plasticity it is going to limit your

possibility for for you

know not to be dramatic but joy in in

your life there's different kinds of joy

that you have in in real

person-to-person social interactions

that it feels pretty good on social

media if you get lots of likes and you

know um but it's not the same and and um

I would I would say that to scare

yourself out you're going to have to

bite the bullet and do a twow week phone

detox what would that do to you how

would you feel I just could never

imagine such a thing well which is a

real shame isn't it really because I

just think about like my ancestors and

my parents they must they must think I'm

so strange but it's just the just the

way that like when my phone dies I'm

like it's like I'm like nervously

waiting for it to come back on I'm like

staring at it like oh my God like what

am I going to do with myself like uh and

I remember those studies they did on

people where they gave them the choice

of either sitting alone with their own

thoughts or giving themselves an

electric shock and a huge amount of

people in that study actually would

rather give themselves an electric shock

than just sit alone with their thoughts

because it's some kind of stimulation

that's kind of how I think I am now like

I don't know what I'd do without my

phone it's really sad I know there's

people listening to me now that think

I'm an absolute like

I'm really sad but it's just the N it's

the truth you know

and um I do wonder what it's doing to my

brain but I think you're right I think

it's actually what it's doing to my like

my life yeah the joy the connections the

being being there to experience things

and um I mean that point that you made

is a very profound one um the the not

wanting to be alone with your thoughts

is the core of meditation can you be be

alone with your thoughts and focus on

something something organic usually the

breath but also a thought like loving

kindness um that is a very powerful

practice to do and it and it's hard I

find it hard too um and I actually

notice I find it harder when I'm when

I'm using social media and when I'm

using my phone more

um but I feel most creative and most

imaginative when I do practice that that

is being alone with my thoughts what

comes into mind um how how does my own

imagination work which is very much

dependent on the hippocampus as well

it's putting together all these things

in your memory and new and interesting

ways that are unique for you or unique

for me and it doesn't work the same if

you are stimulating your brain with

social media all the time you um I mean

you wrote a book that kind of speaks to

what we're talking about here you wrote

a book about anxiety yes yes I did 2021

yeah I think the the US version is

called good anxiety isn't it slightly

different title in the US in the UK

yeah why did you write a book about

anxiety I wrote a book about anxiety

because I started to notice my

students getting much more anxious than

they ever used to be and this was before

the pandemic I mean I I I had the idea

to write this book in 2018

2019 and so first I noticed in the the

students they were getting so stressed

out before finals they never did that

before so so many accommodations they

were asking for and I'm like what's

going on here but then I realized it

wasn't just them like I'm getting more

anxious as well my friends are more

anxious and I really wanted to dive into

that I didn't want to be anxious in that

way uh because part of me was like oh

I'm just New Yorker I'm just anxious all

the time right because that's what New

Yorkers are no this has changed and we

forget that before the pandemic there

was there was still global warning

warming there was still political issues

that that lots of people including me

and all of my students were worried

about and that was the impetus for for

trying to dive in and ask well I made my

life happier with exercise what what is

the approach when it's anxiety and not

clinical anxiety I did not have clinical

anxiety and the vast majority of my

students didn't have clinical anxiety

they had what I called everyday anxiety

just worried about the things that are

going on in the world and there were

just more things to be worried about is

that normal is that human that is human

absolutely but is it human in

the in is the quantity in which we

experience it

human uh I think it is I mean because I

think about my ancestors I go they they

probably I don't know I always imagine

my ancestors kind of I don't know just

chilling you know like but they didn't

have they didn't have global warming

where the ocean is about to you know get

sucked up in plastic and and the the

ozone is gonna come come down no worries

like that at all but the everyday

anxiety for me is like

emails and what's up well by everyday

anxiety I mean the anxiety that people

are feeling today that is not at the

clinical level so all the things that we

just me mentioned global warming and

wars in multiple places in the world all

of that contributes to the higher level

of anxiety and your ancestors in mine

went through two world wars but and that

was anxiety-provoking no question about

it but they weren't also all the other

things that were um you know

contributing to it including the higher

than you know extremely high anxiety and

suicide levels of our young people that

are you know that strongly linked to

social media so that's that's another

element what did you find then when you

started uncovering and trying to go on

this search of figuring out you know the

the nature of anxiety and what we can do

about it did you first find that you're

right in your hypothesis that it is

increasing yeah yeah how much do you

know how

much um you know it it shifted over the

time that I wrote and published the book

because I started in 2018 and then it

was published in the middle of the

pandemic in 2021 where anxiety levels

went up approximately 20% worldwide so

um but the social media anxiety uh um

that is going up in girls even more than

20% and that's kind of in parallel so I

I actually don't know how to um

integrate those two levels but they're

both going in the same direction why are

women young women becoming more anxious

and suicidality amongst that age group

is rapidly

increased you know I think that um it's

it's that comparison that that is so

easy to do and I see it in my my own

work at the University that when I was

going to college I had no idea what rank

I was in in number in the application

but they could see that immediately they

know exactly what number they are in

each and every class they take in their

whole High School class in the in their

application to to the five schools that

they applied to or 10 or 15 now that

they're applying to that gives a much

higher level of stress when you know

those numbers immediately

um that we never had so so there are

stresses like that that that um they're

they're experiencing more information

yeah more it's funny because more social

connection but it's when I say social

connection I don't mean real world

social connection I mean more followers

and likes and more people that can

message me and tell me something and DM

me or comment on my thing right more

noise yeah the volume's increased which

is seems to be driving more anxiety

where do we experience anxiety where

from a physiological standpoint point

where is anxiety CU it feels like it's

in your chest yeah so anxiety is kind of

a fullbody experience and um anxiety is

um strongly linked with the stress

response so um an anxiety-provoking

situation you you um meet somebody that

you uh you know had a big fight with

before Oh I'm anxious I might have to

speak to that person before uh

that launches that launch is the stress

response um that is um dependent on

What's called the sympathetic nervous

system and so this is where it becomes

full body so what happens when your

fight ORF flight system is activated

your heart rate goes up your respiration

goes up your um irises get get bigger so

you can see everything and look out for

that that annoying person that you're

worried about um and blood is shunted

from your digestion and reprodu

reproductive organs towards your muscle

so you can fight or run away that's what

all of our ancestors evolved to protect

us from not not the social media post

but um the lion or the Tiger that could

come and attack us so it made sense for

that kind of stressor or that kind of

threat unfortunately our body's doing

the same exact thing when the nasty DM

comes in from somebody I wasn't sure who

it is but they're saying something

really bad about something I care about

a lot and we get this stress response we

get anxious because of that and uh

somebody asked me does that mean our

brain is not very smart and the answer

is our our our stress and our threat

system is not very smart it isn't

differentiating between the line that

could physically kill us and the DM that

might wound our pride but but will not

kill us but it causes the same kind of

um stress response and anxiety response

what do I do about that you have to

learn how to turn the volume of your own

anxiety down and part of that is I'm not

saying you have to not look at your DMs

and not look at or or not look at soci

social media there's lots of ways to

turn your anxiety down we've already

talked about uh some of those approaches

exercise immediately decreases anxiety

and depression levels and there you

don't even have to get aerobic 10

minutes of walking can significantly

decrease your anxiety and depression

levels that is a powerful tool that

everybody can use right right here right

now breath meditation did you know that

breath meditation that is deep breathing

um it's the oldest form of meditation

why because equal in opposite to that

fight ORF flight response that everybody

seems to know about is the rest and

digest part of your nervous system

called the parasympathetic nervous

system that calms you down it slows your

heart rate down slows your respiration

rate down and shuns blood from your

muscles towards your digestion and

reproductive organs so you can do those

weekend rest and digest kinds of things

well everybody should be asking well do

I have that system yes everybody has

that system everybody has a

parasympathetic nervous system how do I

activate that the best and most

effective way that you can activate that

right now is take three deep breaths

because that's the only thing you have

conscious control over that can launch

all the rest of that parasympathetic

activity slowing your heart rate I can't

slow my heart rate by thinking about it

can I take three deep slow breaths right

now absolutely and monks hundreds if not

thousands of years ago realize that that

is the thing that I can do immediately

to slow my slow my stress response down

it's very very powerful sadness sadness

sadness is um can be linked with anxiety

and um you know sad list like anxiety is

something that people I think would like

to kick out of their lives and just

never have

anymore at all if I could get rid of

sadness and anxiety I would be the

happiest person

alive but would you because my argument

in good anxiety my book good anxiety is

that these prickly emotions these

difficult emotions like anxiety like

sadness

are really really valuable because

they're they're focusing us on things

that we should be paying attention to

specifically anxiety it is a warning

system oh there's that person oh you

didn't have a good interaction you you

need to pay attention now should it

throw you into a an anxiety attack

perhaps not use some of these techniques

um like like deep breathing and going

for a walk but it is a warning system

and why is this valuable here's why it's

valuable it's valuable because when you

know what you are worried about your

fears that your anxiety focuses you on

it actually tells you about what you

hold most dear in your life and that is

something that we should all really want

to know so if you're a people pleaser um

you are doing lots of things to maybe

too many things to please people but

that means that you care

about personal interaction and I start

with this one because I'm a peop pleaser

and I realized that people pleasing

response and the anxiety that it does

evoke is reminding me that what's very

very valuable to me is that interaction

with people I care about that that's a

beautiful thing I value that in my life

in my

personality I'm going to let you in on a

little secret what is in the diary of a

COO Cup this cup that sits in front of

me when I interview these people

sometimes for 3 hours and sometimes

three people a day and the answer is

this perfect head I invested in the

company on Dragon's Den and since then

they've gone from an idea to the fastest

growing energy drink in the UK it is a

mat energy drink and it is absolutely

delicious but that's not why I choose to

drink it on this podcast the reason I

choose to drink it is because it gives

me what I call all day energy I don't

get the same crashes that I used to get

with other energy drinks if you're in

the middle of a conversation or you're

in the middle of a talk on stage or in

the boardroom the last thing you want to

do is have a crash you don't want

Jitters and you need focus and that is

why they now sponsor this podcast not

only is it delicious but it gives me a

significant competitive Advantage if you

haven't tried it go down to a Tesco go

to a waitrose or go online and use the

code diary 10 at checkout and you'll get

10% off and when you do try it let me

know how you get on do you think we

could see love in the brain can you see

if some some 's in love in the brain if

we scan the brain of someone that's in

love when they're interacting with their

partner could we see that um yes in fact

they have Scan people who are in the

throws of of uh um romantic love and

people that are in um you know many

years into a loving

relationship and there are uh lots of

reward areas that get activated when

you're scanning the brain um of somebody

that that you know is in the throws of

deep romantic love that is in the first

few weeks you can't get enough of the

person you're with them all the time you

can't stop thinking about them a lot of

the reward areas are are activated uh a

lot of the social interaction areas

including the insula uh part of the

brain right in the side here just just

uh in the uh area near the ear deep into

the cortex get gets activated doesn't

that mean then that if we don't fall in

love if we don't have those feelings

that that part of our brain might shrink

because if you know they say often

things like you you use it or you lose

it they say neurons that fire together

wi together if I'm not in love if I'm

not if I don't have those social

connections will the love part of my

brain get smaller and would that make it

more difficult to love in the future

that's a great question I think that um

that study has not been done but

absolutely if uh uh if you don't use

that part of the brain um you will not

you know gain the function and so yeah

not not using your love part of your

brain is is not a nothing that I would

ever recommend some people I guess don't

have a choice well I guess they have a

choice in the sense that they can do

things they have optionality but for

whatever reason some people don't find

love it's just an interesting

observation because in all other parts

of the brain you have to like do you

mean romantic love romantic love Yeah

but but you know there's all sorts of

different kinds of Love deep friendship

um it's actually what I was going to say

is that um they tried to look at the

difference between romantic love and

maternal love or paternal love and it

turns out that longterm relationships

like romantic relationships of marriages

that last for many years start out of

course in this romantic phase but it

turns into more of a maternal paternal

um pattern when you go farther and

farther along that that is a win that is

not something wrong with your brain um I

think love does evolve over time and

there's many different kinds of Love

beyond the Romantic

Hollywood you know uh and Disney kind of

uh uh form of love so you can see the

honeymoon phase in the brain yes and

then you can see the more mature love I

guess yes in the brain interesting oh

the I guess the the opposite of love

I guess might be hate but I think when

another sort of thing that people might

think of as the opposite of Love would

be rejection or heartbreak and through

all of our Lives we encounter heartbreak

in many forms we encounter romantic

heartbreak but also other forms of

heartbreak as I read through your story

I I I I could see moments in your story

where you encountered various types of

heartbreak yes grief yeah you talked

about your father passing away from

Alzheimer's yes well he had a heart

attack he had Alzheimer's dementia when

he passed away he he died of a heart

attack and just three months after your

dad's death your younger brother died of

an unexpected heart attack age 50 yes

and you say in your book good anxiety in

chapter four you say the death was

unfathomable

yeah as someone who studied the brain

and therefore has a really strong

understanding of the physiology of the

human mind yeah and has

also written a book about anxiety so you

have this sort of two-pronged approach

towards understanding feelings and

emotions

yeah in those

moments what did you come to understand

about the nature of emotion the most

intense emotions and how how they

Captivate Us and how we can find our

path through the

jungle yeah I like that word that I used

it was

unfathomable um

um both of those losses at at the same

time it it was hard to process and I

remember the waves of grief that would

come over it wasn't constant it would it

would it would be like wave so I I I

have one and then it would recede and I

felt a little bit better but then

unexpectedly it would come again and um

I'd never thank goodness experienced

that before and um it was in the middle

of writing the book good anxiety and I I

put it aside uh because I couldn't write

when I was going through this this

terrible grief and and had to do

something that I'd never ever had to do

and actually was my biggest fear um

unnamed biggest fear in my life was um

to have to give a eulogy I I have a fear

of uncontrollable crying in public and

I'd always been afraid of of eulogies

and I never had to give a eulogy and I

had to give this eulogy for my for my

brother um um another unfathomable how

could that be

happening and

um I I got I got through that and um I

learned something in the process and I

remember working out to try and make

myself feel feel better during this time

and um the instructor said about the

workout with great pain comes great

wisdom

and I just glommed on to

that that message because I was feeling

great pain what was the wisdom like I

need to find some wisdom what what is

that

wisdom and I realized because I had to

say something at this eulogy that the

wisdom was that on the other side of

that unfathomable grief that I was

feeling the only reason why I was

feeling that unfathomable grief is

because because of the deep love that I

had that it started with so if I didn't

love them as much I wouldn't have as

deep a grief so in fact the grief and

the the the depth of

it was a

sign of the love that I had for

them and

that that was the wisdom that I found

and that was the Solace that I found and

that was a message that I gave in that

eulogy

and um and then I became obsessed with

the flip side of these awful emotions

that we all go through grief is this one

because I had to go back and finish this

book good anxiety how was I going to do

that the book was transformed by that

event because I realized that if I could

find the wisdom and

the the

power um of the most horrible emotion

I'm going to say

grief what is the flip side of anxiety

what is the gift what is the superpower

that comes from anxiety and I needed to

find gifts and superpowers and that's

why the book got written in that way and

I I name superpowers that come from

anxiety that was that was heightened

after after this terrible event but I

found them and I used them all the time

it was therapeutic

actually how did it change you the loss

of your brother and your father in such

a short period of Time how are you a

different person because of those two

events you realize

that everybody's going to feel these

emotions sometime in their

life and I can bring more empathy and

compassion to those experience for

others and I I remember I I never wanted

to talk to people that had a loss I

never knew what to say I knew I was

going to say something wrong I just had

no idea I felt

lost and um and it is I do feel wiser I

feel like I have more empathy I have

more

knowledge can I ask you a question if if

if there was a pill yeah that you could

take to not feel the

grief in the moment when you were in the

throws of that grief would you have

taken it and in hindsight now would you

have taken

it look I I know I'm not a pill taker I

I wasn't

clinically I didn't feel like I'm oh I

can't you know go about my life it was

it was a terrible emotion but I I didn't

feel completely debilitated with it

other other people do maybe they would

take the pill I would not take the pill

and

after the lessons that I learned from

going through those emotions absolutely

I would not take the pill and and that

was part of the lesson of writing this

book that

anxiety is critical for us because

anxiety and sadness and and

anger are critical

to help us appreciate those joyous

moments if of Our Lives if we had no

grief no sadness no anger

ever then every day would you know it

would just be mundane but it gives that

value I mean our highest Highs are extra

high because we know those lows and and

that also is probably how this grief

that I experienced affects me I I

appreciate I appreciate the the good

times even more as a neuroscientist who

understands the brain and the systems

and then sort of neural Pathways and all

this stuff and how we think and does

that leave much room for

spirituality and those kinds of things

are you spiritual I am and what does

what you know because when some people

think about spirituality they think they

think it's the opposite of Neuroscience

they think yes if I spoke to some people

some people that I know they think of

that the decisions and the feelings and

the energies are outside of our body not

going on in this ball of tofu and then

some like

hardore people scientists will will

explain all of our experience through

this ball of tofu yes where do you sit

so um I've evolved over time so um when

I was a young scientist I no

spirituality no religion everything can

be described by science like I have

prove it prove it to me I want to you

know see the data I happily went through

um that phase for many many years of my

life until I realized or I didn't even

realize I think I needed something more

in in my life and and then I realized

first there was a need there was a then

there was a realization well can I

really prove that the only thing that is

true

is that what I what I can prove what if

there are things

Beyond um proving in the in the

scientific

method and I think there are things that

uh in the spiritual realm in the

religious realm um that absolutely could

be true could be true could be true that

cannot be solved cannot be proven with

the classic scientific method things

that you believe

yes what makes you believe them cuz on

one hand you said you kind of want to

which is an element of that yeah but as

a I'm interested as a scientist as a

neuroscientist yeah you must have been

trained to be able to explain that's how

you pass the exam so you get you must be

able to explain why you have these

beliefs do you in that part of your life

do you just kind of say I've I've felt

it is that the no it's uh well part of

it yes I I I do feel it but it was the

realization that the scientific

method in my opinion is not the endall

and be all that I thought it was when I

was a young scientist can you prove that

these other Realms don't exist and if

they exist in ways that cannot be proved

in in a scientific method well maybe

your scientific method is wrong is that

is that a possibility have you had an

experience that made you believe in

another Realm have I had an experience

um I have uh in my academic

way I have

studied texts that

are the oldest texts that we know um uh

the Bible and I was raised in a um

actually was a half Christian half

Buddhist um family and uh but my my

my core belief was uh uh Christianity

and so yeah I I I I go to church I I

really appreciate the power um

that that religious beliefs bring to my

life it actually really decreases my

anxiety and that's not the only reason

why I did I just I I wasn't look

searching for an anti- anxiety kind of

um uh solu

but I was looking

for maybe something more than the

scientific method in my

life we're going in One Direction as a

society like more I told you I'm

basically addicted to my phone screens

loneliness yeah um less connection less

friends less people we can turn to in a

time of Crisis according to all the

studies and as we go further and further

down that road I think it's making it

more obvious of what's at the end the

other end of the street yeah and it's

robbing us of something at a really deep

level then I think I'm noticing more and

more as I grow older I think that's

actually why I want to have kids now

because I think I'm in search of that

greater meaning or purpose in my life

beyond just like making more money or

just you know all the superficial stuff

yeah you you said to me before we

started speaking that you're thinking a

lot about Community I am why because I

think it is a bomb

to students and to everybody and um I

think those those events that we can

create that bring people together and

talking to each other and learning about

each other are joyous events and um I

see it in the in in me and in the

students that come to these events it is

clear that that is um something that

that is a little bit unfamiliar to

students right now but um has an

immediate effect so what is the one

thing we haven't spoke about regarding

Betty the brain over there in the corner

but the brain in front of you the most

important thing about the brain that we

didn't

discuss you

know you only have one and um we have an

opportunity every single

day to make

it as healthy as it could be I my I

watched my father pass away with

Alzheimer's dementia and um um we have

elderly people in my family as well

and it motivates me even more to to keep

my brain healthy to make as many friends

as I can to have as many connections as

I can uh because I want to be as happy

as I can be for the rest of my life and

I want to have um and I want to have a

big fat fluffy brain so um you only have

one and um there are things you can do

right now now today to make it

stronger Wendy thank you so much thank

you

for the way that you deliver I think is

um is so deep rooted in a really

undeniable passion and you you're on a

real mission to make other people live

better lives and I think that's

something that deserves to be highly

commended it's it's so apparent in

everything you do that you're so focused

on helping others in a way that I don't

always see

um and that comes from I you know

reading through your story I can see the

pivotal moments throughout your story

that sent you on that mission and I do

describe it as a mission these two books

are fantastic you wrote the book in 20

or you published it in 2015 called

healthy brain happy life and then your

second book which came out in America

called good anxiety which is a

phenomenal book that really helps to

reframe how we think about anxiety I

think that reframing helps us experience

it differently but also shall I say dare

I say be grateful for the signal the

lessons that it's there to teach us the

wisdom that it gives us we have a

closing tradition on this podcast where

the last guest leaves a question for the

next guest not knowing who they're

leaving it for question left you is in

this book

oh what do you think is the best quality

of humanity

ooh

compassion and what does that mean

compassion means

feeling feeling for the um um the

experience of others both good and bad

so I can experience your joy

compassionately and I could experience

your grief compassionately I think that

is because I've been thinking so much

about connection and

community that um function of uh or

emotion of comat

is uh really top of mind for me Wendy

thank you thank you

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