The Future of Design Is Art Direction, Not Pixel Pushing - Ep. 55 with Lucas Crespo

Most newsletters look exactly the same.

It's text on a white background. Like,

how can we make ours feel special? I

come from advertising, so all that I did

for a while was just art direction for

brands, you know? You can just now

generate UIs. It's way more important to

like be in tune with what you find

beautiful about day-to-day things, you

know, and like actually like start

honing on that art direction of things.

you log into Gmail or Outlook and it's

just like a ton of text in chronological

order and and it feels like you're in a

hospital or like in a government

building with a lot of like fluorescent

lights and like everything is sterile

and hygienic. So, we wanted to create

this narrative of going from a stormy

void type of like forsaken place into

like a more sunshine spring. trying to

do like a little bit of symbolic

storytelling while we're actually like

also telling that uh same story in here

inside the text of of the letter. You

might not explicitly notice it, but

you'll feel it. I love those little

details. choosing or championing more

efficiency over like the emotional

aspects of things like the the details

that you might put on a doororknob or

the manhole covers on the street or or

whatever, you know, like it just

definitely feels like um the world is in

general or Panama at least is not

minimalist at all. It's very maximalist.

I think the internet deserves more

maximalism.

[Music]

Lucas, welcome to the show. What's up,

man? Thank you for having me. Thanks for

coming. Uh, I'm so excited to do this

with you. Uh, for for many reasons. Uh,

one, because you are the original

producer of this show and you designed

all of the visuals for it. Two, cuz I

just love hanging out with you. three,

um, because you play such a critical

role and at every and you do such a good

job that I'm just really excited to,

uh, bring everything you do to to this

podcast and let everyone see a little

bit of a behind the scenes on on how you

work. Um, so for people who don't know,

you are the creative lead at every,

which means that you're responsible for

the vibe basically of every and all of

our products. Um, and I feel like people

um I mean I people really like the vibe

and I love the vibe and it's such a

critical part of what it is that we do

and it's such a pleasure to get to work

with you and I'm just so happy to get to

talk to you about how you do what you

do. Yeah. I mean I I think like uh for

me it's been a a good journey so far. Uh

thank you for reminding me that I

actually used to produce this podcast. I

I have forgotten I had totally forgotten

about that. Uh cuz Vivian is has been

doing like a a great job so far now that

I totally forgot about it and yeah it's

been it's been a journey but super happy

to be able to uh vibe with you all and

and get to make us look as good as

possible you know. Yep. Totally. Um yeah

I mean you know I I've told you this

before but for people who are listening

you're kind of like the ideal you're a

founder's best friend.

Um because like you've done pretty much

every job at the company. Uh you started

as a uh doing ad sales. Um you just DM'

me like called DM me and was like, "Hey,

can I I want to work with you?" And I

was like, "Cool, that sounds fun. Uh I

don't know what what you should do, but

like maybe do, you know, ad sales."

And you progressed from there to like

uh doing uh like helping us run courses

to doing the uh like producing the

podcast to um now doing all of the

visual design and aesthetic and all the

UI design. So like basically everything

that I throw at you, you're just like,

"Yeah, I'll figure that out." And you

do. Um which is really great and it's

it's such a it's so fun to get to work

with you on this stuff. But I think I

think the place I want to start is and I

this is very relevant to the audience is

um you're someone whose career I've seen

transform

um by using AI. Like I remember when you

first um we we first started working

together. Uh, I used to have you CC at

me on all the sales emails you were

sending because I mean your English is

great, but like your your written

English at when we first started working

together was like every once in a while

there'd be like a little thing and I'm

very sensitive to this stuff where it

was like, you know, it wasn't quite

perfect. Um, and I just remember when

Chat GBT came out, your email suddenly

became like

perfect like overnight. And that might

seem like a small thing, but it's really

not because, um, that was the moment

where I was like,

uh, you know, uh, now I can let now I

don't have to watch your emails and now

I can give you more responsibility. I

can like let you manage the courses that

we're doing. And you could have done

that before, but just like the

communication is just so much easier

that now I can like give that to you

without having to worry about it. Um and

same thing for like the image generation

like um when Dolly and MJ started to

come out you started to be like oh I can

like now I can do all the like art for

like the site and so you know all the

all the all the images that we do for

all the stuff we publish like um it just

started you just started doing that

stuff and it it was like amazing. So

every time there's a new AI tool or you

remember you built that like AI

summarizer for our Sunday digest. every

time there's a new AI tool, you just

like dive in and it has just like

completely changed I think the tra

trajectory of your career. So I just

wanted to like talk about that with you

like what has what's that experience

been like? Yeah, I mean I think first of

all just being at every and the fact

that like AI is baked in into everything

that we do write about or even talk

about in all of our meetings just makes

me more inclined to jumping into like

all of this sort of stuff. Uh, but just

so you know, like not just my um emails

in English are not perfect, but also my

Spanish emails because like I I just I'm

like a terrible typer in general. Like I

speak way better than I express myself

with like my hands, I guess, with like

using a keyboard or like um or just like

writing by hand. Like just I'm like

terrible. Like grammar is like the bane

of my existence. And and I I think like

when we started like using uh I think it

was like 3.5 when it originally came out

um that uh like uh I knew that like the

emails needed to be better and like I

knew what I wanted to say but it was

like so easy just to like grab like what

I wanted to say and just say like fix it

or make it at least sound coherent, you

know, and then like grab that and it was

like already like perfect, you know? So,

like it's not like it's I never thought

of it as as like, oh, the AI is writing

the emails for me. It's like the AI is

making sense out of me not making sense

or at least out of my incoherentness or

translating maybe. Yeah, it's it's like

translating to like the correctness, you

know. Um, and I guess like I'm I've just

always been more of a visual person that

I've never really bothered so much into

jumping on like uh writing so much,

which is kind of like ironic because

like now I've written two pieces uh for

a media company here. Even like text

models just like because like a lot of

the work that I do is very visual. So

like how do text models help in that

way? But I do think like using 3.5 like

allowed me to sort of

like on like it unlocked this sort of

feeling that I had in my head of like

everything is sort of like figure

outable you know like before it was like

oh I don't know how to do that so I

can't help you you know but there's like

this little thing that like AI did that

is like everything is figure outable

now. So it just kind of like allowed me

to to want to like take more than I knew

that I could do without it if that makes

sense. Totally. I think a lot of people

listening and watching if they're

already familiar with every then like

one of the reasons they might be excited

to um listen to this episode is because

they're just like I love every's

aesthetic. Like how do you even do that?

Um I hope I hope people feel that way. I

feel that way. Um tell me about that.

Like um how do you think about the

aesthetic that we have and how did you

come to it and how do you think about

putting it out every day? Yeah. Well, I

think it maybe makes sense to go a

little bit back. I uh I come from

advertising. So like all that I did for

like a while was just art direction for

brands. So based on that like I I

noticed right away working at every that

there was really no like art direction

or like there wasn't really like uh

anything super cohesive. So I always had

like that itch which I never was able to

scratch because I was doing like ad

sales or something else or or whatever.

Um, and for a while we were just like

everybody like each writer was like in

charge of like their own cover images.

So like that created like very a lot of

inconsistencies. Everybody had like

different prompting styles. Everybody

was using Deli uh but still like

everybody was just prompting

differently. And I just noticed that

like there was room for uh creating

something that that felt special or that

felt interesting enough. And and I

remember we did a lot of like iterations

and back and forth to to make sure that

like oh this feels at least aligned with

like what we're trying to do as a brand

or as a company. Um but I just like uh I

knew that like we needed to to pop, you

know, cuz I think like most newsletters

look exactly the same. Uh it's text on a

white background. Like how can we make

ours feel special? And and I guess like

that's something that I uh try to look

at a lot of the the things that I work

through. Um or or at least that's the

lens that I put on for like a lot of the

work that we do together. Uh just cuz

like it's it's easy to kind of like fall

into just keeping things looking the way

that they are. But uh but I don't know

like there's really an opportunity to

kind of like delight people just by like

pouring your soul into like tiny little

details and things like that. And I

really enjoy that. Definitely. And how

do you describe like what it is? Like

what the aesthetic even is? Yeah. So I

would say um the way that I usually talk

about it is like neocclassical pop art.

That's like the simplest way uh because

it has like a lot of hints and symbols

and elements that are like more reserved

for like the barack period or like

neocclass or like Greek Greco Roman type

of aesthetics, columns, architecture

like statues and like stuff like Yeah,

like statues and things that are

normally more uh connected to like that

classical aesthetic, but that's like so

old school as well, you know? that's

like something you would see in a museum

and like museums I I've never I me at

least me personally I've never felt like

a museum is particularly like fun you

know it's like oh I'm going to go to a

museum I'm going to learn and I'm going

to like get inspired and things like

that but like uh we are a web company

you know at the end of the day and like

there's so much noise in the webs how do

we stand out and like I uh I remember

talking with you a lot about how uh we

are sort of like talking about the

future but from a lens from like the now

and the past and like how the past tells

the future and sort of like that. So, a

lot of those like themes sort of like um

got translated into the designs where

like how can we make like all these

classical super vintage type of

aesthetics or like feel alive and and

feel electric and like add a little bit

of like you know energy to it and and I

think like that's where all the

saturated like colors came from like the

crazy lines and and all that sort of

stuff while still keeping a lot of that

uh classical vibe in there. Yeah. Um,

one of the things we talk about a lot

is,

um, the idea of of dynamic tensions, um,

like playing with opposites. So, uh, you

might think in order to create a brand,

it's like, well, is it new or old? And I

think for us, one thing that's really

important to me is playing with the

tension between new and old. Um, and

bringing in elements of both to create

something that feels new and a little

bit more alive.

Because you know something about Every

is like we have a it's a future

hopefully future focused company future

forward company but we have a lot of

respect for and awareness of the history

of for example great publishing

companies and magazines and all that

kind of stuff that um that like came

before us. Uh, and I really love trying

to take some of the glamour or

aspiration of

um of those sorts of old style things

and

then bringing them back in a new way

that feels uh fresh and and about the

future and all that kind of stuff. And I

think that produces something really

really interesting. There's a particular

um art style called art deco uh from

like I think it's from like early 1900s

that was also something that we we

talked about a lot where it was really

trying to be about the future but it's

from the past and that's like a really

cool like thing to me. Um and uh and I

think you're really good at playing with

those kinds of tensions. Yeah. I think

like there's um that at least to me

that's what makes uh design interesting

you know cuz like uh there's a lot of

like lowhanging fruit uh in like design

you know because you can easily look up

for a swipe file or go to Pinterest and

just kind of like replicate what kind of

like resonates with you but at the same

time that's not necessarily sort of like

creating like a new provocation in like

the the person that is like viewing it

or or whatever. And I think like I mean

I'm not a writer, you know, like by

trade, but I I know how like the the

choice of syntax, the choice of like

where you put a coma or like whatever

it's all about like sort of like

creating a rhythm, creating like a

certain feeling and things like that.

And I think like uh there's a lot of uh

a lot of ways that like visuals and

designs sort of like work in a in a

similar way, you know, like um just like

even adding very simple details like uh

very slight grain texture like

automatically puts it a little bit in

the past and like gives you a little bit

of that vibe, you know, and and depends

on how you use it and and and things

like that. But I do think like there is

something really interesting about like

uh really taking things that like maybe

shouldn't work together or that you

think like perhaps you don't normally

see them together and I think like

that's what makes it interesting because

it's more unexpected, you know? Yeah.

One of the things that I think is also

unique about your um your design taste

and design vibe that's actually a little

bit different for me is I'm a little bit

more maybe minimalist and understated um

visually. I'm more of a ver verbal

person than I am a vis visual person

anyway. But if I'm doing visual stuff,

I'm a little bit more minimalist. And I

think you can do minimalism really well,

but you also really like bright colors

and saturated stuff and stuff that like

pops. And what's really funny is

actually so we were uh you're you're in

Panama right now. You're from Panama. U

and we spent some time together uh on

Bocaust Del Toro for a month uh like

last month which is awesome. It's also

where I flew off my motorcycle and my my

wrist. But uh that's a story for another

time.

Um, and when I was coming back from um

from Bocus, I was I spent some time in

Panama City just like a just a day and I

ended up walking around and it's so

colorful. Like all of the buildings are

these beautiful like greens and pinks

and reds and purples and like all this

stuff that like the outsides of the

buildings that you wouldn't really

expect. And it just made me I don't know

if you've ever consciously connected

that, but it made me connect to um a lot

of the like the saturation in your in in

in what you do because it just feels

like a to me a reflection a little bit

of Panama City actually. Well, I I've

never thought about it that way. So,

it's really interesting what you're

saying because like it just made me

think about like a story that I have no

idea if it's true or or if it's not. But

basically like I heard that in Panama

City uh a lot of h or in Panama in

general a lot of houses and and like

small buildings and things like that are

painted in like very sort of like uh not

like normal colors or ne neutral colors

like we would be used to, you know, like

light beige or like white or whatever.

And it's mostly because those are like

the the colors that are most in demand.

So they are the most expensive, you

know, like buying white paint or buying

like uh slight light yellow. It's like

more expensive than like buying lime

green paint because who would paint

their house light green, right? Uh so it

was like it kind of like came out of

like a limitation, I guess, but it

trickled into like a visual sort of

aesthetic that like it's really kind of

interesting and tropical and very

representative of the region. Uh the the

difference obviously is that like pixels

are free and like the colors that you

choose from the color picker like are

are really free. But I do think like

maybe there is something towards like um

like Panama City and like the the

tropicality of it and like the sort of

the architecture and and the how

picturesque like a lot of the the the

landscapes are that maybe like has

trickle in into like some of design cuz

I do notice that like I'm not like a

super minimalist person uh in general.

But I also think it's like like the like

if you for example look at a like the

portfolio of a designer from like Norway

or like Sweden, it's probably going to

look like an IKEA super like minimalist,

super sleek and like mine is totally the

opposite of that, you know? Yeah. And

and it's and I think it's mainly just

because like I I respect minimalism and

I think like it's great, but at the same

time I have like a lovehate relationship

with it because like minimalism kind of

like came up in in like the tech world

thanks to like Brun and like Apple that

were really kind of like championing

like um only having the bare essentials

in like the final sort of like

composition or final thing uh which is

all about like uh getting rid of excess

and like whatever you don't need and and

things like that which I think it's

great but like the our world is each

time more and more full of technology

and technology is becoming like such an

important part of our life that like it

sort of seems like we're kind of like um

choosing or championing more like

efficiency and like these types of

things over like the emotional aspects

of things like the the details that you

might put on a doororknob or the details

that you might like put into like the

manhole covers on the street or or

whatever, you know, like it just

definitely feels like um the world is in

general or Panama at least is not

minimalist at all. It's very maximalist

and I think like the web has sort of

like been following this same pattern of

like, hey, let's minimize everything.

But I don't know. I I think the internet

deserves more maximalism, you know, more

more attention, more more stuff, you

know, especially now because like

everybody can just like generate a UI or

generate something and and since it's

trained on patterns and everybody loves

minimalism, it's just spitting out more

minimalism and the web is just going to

like get get French in minimalism. Yeah.

I sort of see it as like things come in

waves. Like I don't know how you feel

about early Apple stuff, but like a lot

of the not early early, but like early

as in I don't know probably the 2000s to

like early 2010s. Probably really the

2000s like they had those like really

bright clamshell MacBooks or like the

early um a lot of the early iPhone UI

was very skeworphic and it had all these

like details like grained leather of

like I can't remember what it was like

your address book. It had like it the

sewing pattern on it and stuff like

that. Um, and then over the next 10

years it became much much much more

minimal. And then now I feel like we're

blossoming back into a lot of what we

talk about is like maximalism and

nostalgia as like two of the maybe

hallmarks of whatever this new AI

aesthetic is. Talk about that. What do

you see as like being the kind of the

aesthetic that's coming up? What I'm

noticing more is like designers feeling

more empowered to spend more time on art

direction because like that's usually

been like a very separate role or it's

been something that like maybe comes

after you're thinking about

functionality and things like that. So

it it always sort of like takes like a

backseat. Um, but I I do think like now

uh I I I feel it in the air, you know,

like this feeling of like people wanting

to bring in more uh things that you

wouldn't see normally on the web, you

know, like more organic things. So like

clouds are like the perfect example of

something that is super like overly used

now. But like uh adding like landscapes,

adding like textures, adding like very

things that that feel like there was

like a human hand involved in it are

really sort of like starting to appear

more in my timeline. And and I see it

like more often in like in designs that

I see around. And I think a lot of that

is probably uh coming from like a a

similar feeling that I'm having that

like if we are all sort of like

regressing into that mean of minimalism,

we're not not going to like stand out.

So like I feel that there is definitely

like uh a trend for people to try

to push the limits I guess of what like

is expectable to happen in like a screen

or a frame or things like that, you

know, or like what is expected to be

inside of a frame. So like I see people

using like paper textures now more than

before on like specific like um uh

components and things like that. and

also like more interesting animations

that that feel a little bit more organic

and and I'm using the word organic a lot

just because you can even if it might or

might not be AI generated it definitely

feels more like there was a human uh

like pushing the things versus like a a

computer cursor or something like that.

Um, and I see a lot of people also

bringing back a lot of like this

skumorphism that you were talking about,

uh, but more related to like buttons and

like more tactile surfaces and like

interactive components and things like

that, which is also like really really

interesting. Um, and I do think like

it's it's like a it's like in in Spanish

we have this phrase which is loses which

means uh for the tastes the colors. So

like you basically like everybody likes

something different. Everybody has like

a different taste or a different idea of

like what's good but kind of like how

you were saying there's like waves of

like what's the the most popular sort of

like design right now. And I think

you're spot on that like as soon as like

uh Chad GBT released a new image

generation model, people started

experimenting to see if like they could

create their own UI kits in Giblly mode

or things like that, which is

interesting. I don't know how long that

will last before like it starts feeling

boring or repetitive. Uh but that's

what's exciting, you know, cuz like who

knows what's next. Yeah. Another really

interesting thing that you've been kind

of tracking is

um is it's not necessarily just an

aesthetic, but it's uh

how AI might change what a website even

is, you know? Tell me tell me about

that.

Yeah. Um that's an interesting question

cuz like I think we were talking about

it in BOAS a little bit too. Um but like

there is

um so like a website is basically um

like a building right like it it has

like its own architecture and like

somebody build it thinking about like

how are people going to like be inside

of that space. Uh so it's like I think

like I tend to look at uh building

products or building websites and things

like that a little bit more akin to like

digital architecture, right? Like you're

building sort of like spaces for people

on the web and

um but but everybody's house sort of

looks the same. everybody's house,

you're like taking the same hallway and

like taking a right in the same sort of

way because we've fallen into the same

sort of like UI patterns or like what

what is the most accessible flow or

whatever and like you usability is great

and like you want to make the the life

of your users better, of course, but

isn't it amazing when you're like lost

in a museum and you don't know like

where you want to like turn next and you

can just like explore and get lost like

and like dive into it or like like or or

on a haunted house or like when you are

like in a in a beautiful park, you know,

and like you can you can just sort of

like stroll around and like spend some

time. And I think like um we're

spending more and more time inside of

our screens and inside of our laptops

and like it seems like that's just going

to be more and more. So like why don't

we bring a little bit of that like

serendipity or like that type of um I

don't know like randomness that exists

in architecture that's been sort of like

thought out for like specific purposes

into uh the way that like we interact

with our products. Um, I don't know how

that translates to like a SAS product

where you just want to like do something

very specific, but I think like uh it it

opens up the question, you know, to like

at least think about it before like just

following the pattern, you know? Yeah.

Yeah. Do you have examples? Like I want

to look at one together of of something

that you're inspired by right now and

just talk about it. Yeah. I mean, I

think like uh a really cool example um

is the website uh that I saw recently

for uh Mainframe uh Jordan Singer's new

company, Mainframe. They have like a

really really sleek website and I've

spent like a lot of time in it just

trying to figure out how they did some

of the things they did because I have no

idea uh specifically like how some

textures or some SVGs were rendered in

in a way that like looks so responsive

and and great. But um show me share your

screen. Yeah. Yeah. Let me share my

screen. Awesome. Okay. So, um there is

this uh website that I really really

like which is uh the landing page for uh

mainframe and um what I have no idea how

they made is like this border texture

cuz like I have it it looks like it

could be a picture you know and like you

can like zoom in and like really notice

like the the intricate details but like

what's interesting is like that this is

like super responsive and like I have no

idea how even to like approach something

like that. So I just thought like that

was interesting. That's interesting. Let

me stop you there. So for people who are

listening and not and not watching,

basically what mainframe has is it looks

almost like you're looking at a

terminal. Um and uh like you know like a

black terminal like DOSS terminal type

thing. So that's sort of back to the

like retro nostalgia stuff that we were

talking about. Um, but what they have

around that is this like it's almost

like a

beige maybe sort of metallicy border. It

looks what it looks like to me is um

like one of those really old monitors

from like the '90s. Um, so it's like the

it's like the border. It's a border that

looks like it's a monitor and as you

resize it, the monitor resizes too,

which is pretty cool. It's like a sort

of CRT kind of monitor, I think. Um,

yeah. Yeah. And it has like shadows and

like it looks like it has depth, you

know, like it looks like the screen is

even like further away than like what it

is, you know, and like that's like super

skumorphic and it's something that like

you are not seeing in in in day-to-day

design in like a random website you come

in and visit, you know. Um, what I think

it's also like really really cool is

that the entire experience happens

inside of like this terminal, you know,

and like the the type of art direction

that they choose, it's also like super

uh reminiscent of like um older type of

like UI from like the older days of like

I don't know

like even before that who knows, you

know, like uh uh it's like really really

interesting how like um the art

direction and the storytelling

throughout the entire thing cuz like

this landing page is sort of like their

manifesto. though in a way they're kind

of like telling the story of their

company and what they believe in in

design and they're and but they are like

using sort of like very simple basic

elements that are from you know like

that you could find like in a terminal

just like lines and things like that to

or dots for example to make something

that feels like truly unique.

Um, and yeah, I just see this as an

example of a website that I would love

to maybe uh build something like this

for us to someday. Like not exactly

this, but just something that feels

like, oh, I'm like I'm in an experience.

Like a website should feel more like an

like you had an experience versus like a

flyer, you know? Um, and I think like a

lot of design tends to look like a

digital version of a flyer, but I think

like there is a lot of room to kind of

like play with with things to make them

feel like I don't know like really

unique and like wanted to share a little

bit of podcast. I agree. Like one one of

the um one of the uh other ways I think

this could come out is like I'm an

investor in this company called Portola

and they have they do these um AI

characters called tolins. Oh yeah. Um,

and we'll we'll have uh Quinton who's

the founder, will be on the show in a

couple weeks and

um, uh, that's another thing where

you're interacting with a piece of

software, but it's a personality and

everyone's talking about like, you know,

agentic AI and blah blah blah, whatever,

but and Tolen is a consumer thing, but I

actually think that that's also going to

happen for like, you know, uh, the

marketer agent that you use is going to

de Devon's going to have a personality,

you know, and you're gonna like a

particular Devon because it like has a

specific voice and and way of

interacting and that and that is that is

an experience. It's a way of having an

experience with technology that wasn't

really possible before. And it there's

all these other there's all these new

design constraints there that are not

just you know it's about the prompt and

the information it the knowledge it has

and whatever but it's also about how do

you present that visually so that you

can you get the sense that there's

someone there that you're talking to.

Yeah, that's really interesting. I think

like even like with uh like voice, you

know, uh that's like an entire like new

paradigm that I really have never even

like ventured to design for or like

audio in general, you know, and I think

like it's definitely becoming more more

important. I I played with a with a tool

lens recently and it was like awesome.

Like the whole on boarding experience is

like extremely delightful. So like props

to that entire team if they're

listening. Um but yeah, I think like

that's exactly what I'm talking about.

Like obviously like that feels super

amazing and fresh because like they are

targeting like like the specific like

end users which might be kids might not

be but like at the end of the day like

it feels like like oh you're like in

inside of a show or like you're inside

of a movie and like and that that's sort

of like exactly what I'm talking about

like yeah you might have like design

limitations but that doesn't mean that

like you have to like follow the same

sort of like patterns or things like

that. Um, you might still have the same

problems, but still like you are you

trying to have fun or are you trying to

just like follow follow the the the

wave, you know, instead of like making

it, I guess. And and photos are fun.

Yeah, definitely. I want you to show us

some stuff like um I know you know I

know you have a couple things you want

to you want to show us. Where should we

start?

Yeah. Um, I think uh something cool uh

that we could start with is maybe giving

people like a little bit of a behind the

scenes on how we make a lot of our

images, things like that. M I'd love

that. Let's do that. Yeah, totally. Um

I'll share my screen again, please. So

uh obviously the new shad GBT model is

great for images and I've been playing

with it but uh so far most of our um

images have been being generated inside

of uh

midjourney and uh you can see sort of

like uh a lot of the type of prompting

that we use here. But um so basically um

midjourney is like the place where uh I

tend to start with like super uh simple

prompts you know like for example like a

black and white vintage Greco Roman

sculpture of two hands shaking in a

white studio background and like this is

the origin of the idea like oh I might

want to have these two hands for a

specific design that we need to do and

in this case this is for the consulting

site. So you'll see that like in uh the

every/conulting site we use something

that is sort of like a deviation

variation of that and like that's sort

of like where we started in a very

different place of where we ended up to

and and if you want I can sort of like

describe what we're looking at but

basically I see that yeah please

describe for people who are who are

listening. Yeah totally. So like uh a

lot of our style is very uh as I said

Greco Roman or classical. So like we use

a lot of statues and like marble

sculptures and like vintage

illustrations and like um for the

consulting website we wanted to kind of

like show the collaboration or between

like you and an an AI or you and machine

and how you you can uh basically do more

because of the collaboration. Uh so I

kind of like wanted to start exploring

that uh in midjourney here.

Uh yeah. So like for example, this is

sort of like how you you can see how it

kind of like was evolving between like

uh robot hands only and then like also

human hands and then like uh we had like

these types of uh images that are very

horizontal and and like a lot of uh like

hand details that are kind of like uh

described as engraving or like uh line.

Let me stop you. Let me let me stop you

there and and and and just just describe

a little bit about what I'm seeing for

people who are listening. So, do you did

you start with that first that those

first hands you you showed? Is that what

you started with? Uh, yeah, I think so.

Yeah. If we go to the very bottom of

this, like we should start seeing some

of that. So, basically like that first

thing that we saw um was two human hands

that looked almost like a little bit

like statuesish, like Greek statues that

were doing fist bumps. Um, and I can't

uh Can you Can you bring that up again?

Can you find that? Let me see. Sorry

about that. I don't have them organized

in here. No worries. That's totally

fine.

[Music]

So, you started with like two human

hands that look like they look like

statues that are um that are uh like

Greek Greek Greco Roman statues that are

shaking hands and and that idea for you

like you were you were working on the

consulting site and you were like I want

to show humans and AIs collaborating.

That's where it came from. Yeah. And

especially like kind of like following

like our same aesthetic and like the our

own visual style, it this kind of like

laid the the at least the the layout or

the composition cuz I knew like I wanted

something coming from like both ends of

the screen. So I knew I needed like a

super horizontal image and like a

handshake or a fist bump just kind of

like felt like extremely natural for

that type of position if that makes

sense. And the prompt uses black and

white vintage Greco Roman sculpture of

two hands shaking in a white studio

background. Why um white studio

background and why black and white?

Okay, those are two great questions. I

tend to uh finish everything up in

Photoshop. So, for example, something

that I would normally do is that like I

would upscale this and then like I would

just download it and put it inside of

Photoshop. And and once uh that happens

when you have white backgrounds or when

you have like black and white assets, it

becomes uh a cleaner image in general or

the outputs are cleaner or or like are

usually like less noisy. And that means

that it's easier to isolate assets when

you're using like specific tools. So for

example like Photoshop uh now that they

have like a lot of like AI image like

selection tools you can just do really

simple things like select select subject

and because the image is just so clean

in the way that it's presented because

of the white studio background and like

that sort of stuff is like really easy

to just like isolate exactly what you

need and what you just did for people

who are what you just did for people who

are listening um like you open up

Photoshop you put you put it in there

and you just press that select subject

button and it just highlighted all of

the the two hands basically and not the

background. Okay, I get it. Yeah,

exactly. And and then and and like

basically because it's like that I can

just like select the subject and I can

just add a mask and then I have removed

the background like automatically and I

can start playing with our style faster

and things like that, right? That makes

sense. Okay, so let's go back. So

um uh Okay, so then so then tell me tell

me a little bit. So then we sort of fast

forward and you've got like now it's

like you're going through different um

iterations of it where it's sort of

started to turn into like machine hands

basically. Um let's find let's find the

first one of those. Yeah, here it's like

the human versions of them. Um and then

I think I don't know if these ones are

ordered chronologically or if like the

oldest ones are like the first ones. Uh

not sure really how how these ones get

ordered, but basically here you can sort

of like see the whole progression

between like the different elements and

me just like playing with a lot of like

separate elements. Um cuz like you might

not know this, but uh the one that we

have here, it's like literally like I

didn't get that in like a one shot. It's

like I got one hand that worked well in

like one output and I got a robot hand

in another output that worked well and I

then I like merged them in Photoshop and

and got the final output uh in that way.

But like you'll see here that like for

example like I think this hand actually

is the one that we have. No, that's not

it. Uh but it's like some specific hand

from one of these ones. I think it might

have been this one. I think it's this

one actually. The one on the right. I

think it got flipped and put in here.

and then like another robot hand from

another output uh looked good enough in

that sense. So like it's all about sort

of like exploring a lot and just like

having a lot of outputs cuz like

unfortunately it's uh a lot like a slot

machine when you're prompting images,

you know. Um so it's just like looking

at the whole option space and and having

a little bit of a vision for what you

want to do cuz like if you're prompting

without a vision then everything works,

right? But yeah. Well, tell me about

like how you're doing these different

like what are you adding? Are you just

are you just pressing go like pressing

pressing generate again and again and

again or how are you like iterating

through these different options to find

something that you like? Yeah. So, um

you'll see that uh a lot of the things

we might do are sometimes like the the

prompt might change just very slightly.

Like for example, black and white

vintage Greco Roman illustration of a

human hand fist bumping in a white

background. And then I might just change

that to a human hand and a robot hand

and see how that changes things. And

then uh in some other prompts it might

just be just one human hand. And I just

want to see like how one looks itself by

itself. And then something else that I

tend to do a lot is uh vary. So for

example, there is this uh feature inside

of MidJourney that they let you like for

example if there I really like this

image but it's not quite right just yet.

I can just like vary it subtly and it'll

just generate something that is like

super close to the I don't know if it's

the seed token or the the the specific

like parameters that they use to like

generate this one in a very similar way

and that way I get closer if I need to.

And what I also do is that for example

uh I might want to keep trying the same

prompt because I I think there is

something important in this prompt but I

want this image here to do a little bit

more driving or or have a little bit

more weight. So you can literally go in

here and uh use the image. So it adds

the image as a parameter here on the top

and it adds more weight to that image

specifically and then that way I'm like

driving the results closer in this

specific direction and and that's at

least the way that I use uh that I drive

with midjourney kind of like uh slightly

adjusting the prompt here and there and

then like varying the outputs and and

fitting the images back that I like to

kind of like keep steering it in one

particular direction until like

something feels good enough as an asset.

set so that I can bring it into

Photoshop and finalize. How are you

um how are you thinking about and how's

your usage breaking down between 40

native image generation and midjourney

now

because that just 40 native image

generation just came out. It's like the

big hot thing. We actually had access to

it for a couple weeks before I think all

of us internally were like wow this is

actually really great. Um are you still

using midjourney like what's your what's

your usage breakdown? Yeah. So, I think

like it uh like so far in the last uh

week or so, two weeks, uh I don't know

how long it's been since it came out. Uh

but I've been using it more. Uh

specifically,

uh let me see if uh we can pinpoint it

in in actually in the wild here. Uh and

for people who are listening, you're on

the every website and you're looking

through all of our um Yeah. Uh our cover

images. Exactly. Yeah. But you designed

this whole thing front to back. So

people should know that which is pretty

cool. Yeah, it's very cool what uh what

we can do when when we work together. Um

but for example like I don't think I

would have ever been able to do

something like this in midjourney. Like

I this is a like a like OpenAI logo as a

statue on a white background. Exactly.

because because the the the new image

gen model in chat GBT is extremely good

at prompt adherence and it uh has a very

good like sense of the world and like

logos and people's faces and things like

that just because of its training set.

So like I can literally ask it to

generate a marble statue of uh the

opening eye logo and I'll get it. But in

midjourney I'm going to get something

that looks kind of like it. But when

you're working with logos it's like it's

either it or it isn't, right? like it

there's no in between really. Um so for

that one specifically, we we used it uh

also like for some images that we want

to kind of like um sketch out like real

people uh we uh also used it there cuz

it's really good at sort of like

translating like or retexturizing at

least uh something specific. But oh, and

then this is the first uh time we did a

GPT40 image uh for here that was

completely done 100% without Photoshop

at all. Um and it's a statue of a woman

holding up it looks like maybe an iPad

or you know like a tablet of some kind

with a picture on it. Yeah, exactly. And

and I think like the way that we that I

made this was like really really

interesting cuz like what I did was uh I

don't know if I can find the chat. Maybe

I can. But um basically I fed it a our

entire like um Oh, that's cool. Oh yeah.

Sorry. Sorry for the back for the uh

distraction here. Um I apologize. That's

really cool. Is this a Kora Kora 404

page? Yeah, I was just like trying to

get some ideas and things like that. Um,

like what it could be. Um, obviously

like we can't just use an an image

because it's not the most responsive

element, but it kind of like serves as a

lot of uh creative inspiration around

what it could be, right? Um, but uh

there was one uh chat that I did

recently uh where I was able to create

like a mood board of a lot of images

that we have done before.

Uh, let me see if this

works. Yeah. So, like for example, like

I could technically give it like a mood

board. And right now we're looking at a

mood board of just like a bunch of

images that we've used uh for certain

articles in the past. And then uh uh I

think for this one specifically, I was

just trying to test. So, like it didn't

work in this sense, but I was trying to

test uh for a specific article that we

ran recently um in super organizers. Um

I just tried fitting in the article and

see what it would do with it uh for like

a thumbnail. Um and it just kind of did

it all right, you know? It's definitely

like similar to our style, but it's just

kind of like boring and like not it. So,

I kind of like gave up here in this

conversation, but I found it like really

interesting that you could just like

feed in a mood board and get an output.

And that's exactly how we generated this

other image uh out of like just asking

for another image for an article where

we're talking about like OpenAI's new

image generation model. That's

interesting. Yeah, I bet like this that

might have worked a little bit better if

it wasn't just a mood board, but it was

also it had some sense of what the

articles were about. Yeah. You know,

it's like, okay, article, maybe headline

and first paragraph plus this is the

image that came out of that. And you did

that a couple times and had it build a

little style guide for itself and then

do style guide, visual mood board, draw

something something like that could

maybe could work. I mean, that that

could be like an interesting experiment

even, you know, like just to like fit

this and like give it a give it like an

output. What I found uh is that if I

don't give it like a lot of direction

because like this model is really good

at like like picking up on like a lot of

the extensiveness of your prompt. But if

I keep my prompts like really really

basic, it'll just always sort of like go

to the background color of the first

image for example and like it'll just

output it. I don't know why but it just

kind of like keeps happening or that's

at least something that I find at least

from my own experience. So uh I I kind

of like feel when I was using midjourney

uh just for image generation and to

create like the the basic element assets

uh it it'd be kind of like oh I get to

pick the background I get to like pick

all of these sort of things but then uh

in Shad GBT I have I I have to sort of

like pick a background color and ask it

to like do it correctly. But if I want

to change it, then I got to like wait 5

minutes, you know, versus like versus

like just doing it in Photoshop. So,

there's like pros and cons. And I think

like eventually like the the way that

this is going to like end up working is

that like this is all going to be like

layers and you're going to be able to

like uh control every little aspect of

it. But until then, like there's still a

lot of prompt work that needs to be done

to to get to like the right place. Yeah,

that makes sense. What else? Anything?

Anything else you wanted to show?

Um, yeah. Like for example here, I was

just trying to see like if it could

create like four new images uh in our

style, but as you see, like the first

image was like in that same color and it

was like a similar woman as that other

first image. So I kind of felt like, oh,

it's basing itself too much from that

first image. But I thought that was

interesting.

Um, something else that I think uh could

be cool to maybe share um could be like

the Kora website if you're into Yeah,

let's talk about Kora. Yeah, awesome. I

think this is some of your best work and

you've done a lot of really great work,

but I think this is some of your best

work. Oh, thank you so much. Let me log

out so that we get to see the whole

thing. Uh, and this work uh took a

village. There was a lot of people

involved in this uh and a lot of

revisions and it it took a village for

sure. So we did. So there's we're

looking at a landing page. The landing

page says it's for Kora which uh it

manages your email with AI. We can go

into exactly what it is. We have an

episode with Kieran who's the GM of Kora

um a couple episodes ago. And the top

says we all dread email. It's an endless

to-do list written by everyone else all

at once. And as you scroll, the email is

kind of like there's a bunch of emails

on the page and it goes into this little

envelope and then the envelope closes

and there's like a really cool every

stamp um on the envelope and then a

little letter pops out and uh it you

know it it's a little letter about like

what email why email sucks but like how

it could actually be really great. Um

and uh and the the the background is

really cool here. It's turning from um

like dark to like brightness uh like a

beautiful field instead of like a stormy

night. And then uh then we finally get

to Kora, your inbox is a story delivered

twice a day, get delivered from email,

which I think is a great line. Um and

yeah, that's that's the page. So tell us

about that. Tell us about um how you

thought about it, how it came together,

what what you what your favorite parts

are, all that kind of stuff. Yeah, I

think like the like this ended up uh

looking very differently than we were

originally thinking about it, which is

really cool. Uh it kind of like shows

you how like the creative process can

just take you in like very different

places. Uh but I think it just had a lot

to do with like the story that we wanted

to tell you like uh from all of our

meetings and everything that we were

sort of talking about Kora and like why

we were doing it like why we were even

spending so much time and and and effort

you know to build like a new email tool

and it was basically all around the fact

that like you know like the general

email experience is like not pretty you

know like you log into Gmail or Outlook

and it's just like a ton of text and

chron chronological order endless

forever and and it just like feels like

you're in a hospital or like in a

government building with a lot of like

fluorescent lights and like everything

is sterile and hygienic and and it's

like oh everything it's like you don't I

don't know like it's definitely not like

uh like a place where I want to spend

like all my day and like we are a

newsletter company so we do like lots of

emails so like how can we make the email

experience at least feel uh better or at

least the the story that we want to tell

on this landing page. So, we kind of

like wanted to create this narrative of

like going from uh I don't know like a

stormy void type of like forsaken place

into like a more like sunshine like

spring

uh type of vibe where like the birds are

singing and like everybody's having a

good time and like uh that's possible

thanks to like this new tool. um kind of

like trying to do like a little bit of

symbolic storytelling while we're

actually like also telling that uh same

story in here inside the text of of the

letter. Uh and I it's one of those

things where you you might not

explicitly notice it but you'll feel it.

I love those little details. Yeah. And

it's something that like you might not

notice it, but like maybe you notice it

the second time or the third time. And

then like it's like that little nice

surprise that like you know like oh

these people like really cared you know

and like that's at least something that

I want anybody that sees our work to

feel like that we care you know that we

really care about like what they're

playing with or like touching. So, we

kind of like put a lot of uh attention

to like, oh, let's add a paper texture

to this and like a little stamp then

like we kind of like keep using those

same elements um for for all this and

then like all all the little um like

blue elements that we use for the the

different like product features and

things like that. But it was just like

how can we sort of like reveal Kora at

the end because it's also like sort of

not normal to not have the product logo

anywhere when you land on a landing

page. But we kind of we kind of like

want to do like a grand reveal by sort

of like starting with the problem and

just talking about the problem. And for

those that are that feel like they can

relate to that problem, which I feel

like a lot of people do, then you might

want to keep reading and see what what

is this all about? And eventually what

what's really cool about this design is

that like the the page is sort of like

overlaying on top of like the product

and like the actual like big takeaway

which is this uh and it's like we're

actually like revealing it out of thin

air which I actually really love a lot.

Totally. and why don't you log in

because I because I think you did

another like amazing job too on the

actual like design UX of the application

and what I think people may not know is

like this is like one of your first

foray into designing web applications at

all which is kind of crazy um so you

just logged in looking at the Kora uh

Kora page

um and uh basically what you're looking

at what we're looking at is what we call

a brief So the way Corora works is when

emails come into your inbox, it decides

whether or not you need to respond. If

you need to respond, it makes it to your

inbox. If not, we automatically archive

them and then send you a beautiful brief

twice twice a day that summarizes

everything you need to know. Um, and so

this is your brief and it's still got

that kind of like same sort of like

sunny uh background. It's got like nice

little summaries. Tell us about visually

like what what what you're seeing, how

you thought about this. Well, like this

already looks so much different than

like Gmail, right? Like this already

feels like like oh, I'm like in the

middle of uh of spring and I'm like uh

outside at the park, you know? Um, so I

think like a lot of those decisions um,

uh, from a design point of view sort of

like came out from like this vision of

like let's make it delightful, you know,

and we really wanted to like lean on uh,

the those old sort of like uh,

impressionist type of oil canva oil

canvas like paintings and things like

that. So you'll see like like you'll see

like the brush strokes in the back if

you log in and things like that which I

think like I find that like super

awesome and and I love to see that even

like on an actual painting when I see it

in in in the real world being able to

like see those tiny details. And what's

actually really cool is that like uh in

the future we're planning on like

actually being able to have like a lot

of different backgrounds and like it

could change depending on like the time

of day or the seasons or like where even

you are in the world. But what's kind of

cool too is that like if you shift to

the afternoon, you'll get to see like

another uh kind of like enlarged

upscaled uh painting that is more akin

to like the nighttime or the afternoon

time. and we're trying to like find

little moments like this throughout the

app to kind of like uh keep telling this

story, you know, and that's I think like

that's something that we didn't touch

upon that I think is also like uh

driving a lot of these decisions is that

we're uh we're talking about Kora as

sort of like this way to uh read email

as a story uh or at least like as as a

narrative or that there is like some

cohesiveness with it. Um, and we really

uh even for like the the video, the

launch video and all of that, like we

took a lot of inspiration of stories and

storytelling and like we wanted to like

make it as visual as possible and like

how stories are visual and like you can

like pass the pages and like absorb a

lot. I think like that's a lot of what

what we wanted to do here that like this

is a website that you look forward to

open just because it looks pretty, you

know, beautiful. Um, I feel it. I love

looking at it every day. It's the best.

Um, and it's so fun to get to work on it

together cuz um, I feel like every time

we get on the phone, we're going to come

up with something really cool and I

don't know where it's going to go. But,

um, it often sometimes it sucks, but

it's often pretty delightful. Yeah. I

also think like uh, to your point like

this is again one of the first times

that like I'm actually jumping into like

uh, product design and things like that

just because I I come as I said from

advertising. So I was mostly doing like

brand and stuff like that for a while.

Uh but I think like that I don't know if

it's a good thing or a bad thing but I

think it has given me like a difference

which is like oh I come at it from like

more of a an art direction perspective

first which I don't know if it's like

the right way or if there's even a right

way who knows but like I I try to come

at least to these things or each project

as to like what is the general vibe

right versus uh versus like like versus

start with like rectangle You know what

I mean? Like we start first with like

vibe and then the vibe slowly becomes

the rectangles versus the rectangles

later getting like accent colors or

whatever. Yeah. But it's not just vibe.

I think vibe encap encapsulates it. But

I really like the word art direction.

Like I haven't actually even thought

about that. But I think art direction

goes with the sort of maximalist vibe.

Like you don't need an art director for

a minimalist website. Um, you just need

to make

rectangles. Um, maybe maybe I don't

know. Art art direction it just feels to

me like for magazines or like you know

something that has a lot of visual

components. Um, and I really like that

as a way of thinking about what you what

designers may need to incorporate into

their practice more going forward given

the new tools like that make art

direction accessible. even if you're a

small team. 100%. I think you hit it in

the nail. I think like uh I think this

even goes back to like your you wrote a

piece about like how we're moving into

the allocation economy and how we're all

becoming managers and like at the end of

the day like an art director, you're

like directing the art, you're like

managing it now. You're not just pushing

the pixels, but you're sort of like

putting the the the hat of a creative

director and like trying to like push a

vision through, you know? And I think

like uh that's a lot of what we're

trying to do here as well just uh see

how we can kind of like stand out but in

a way like guide them guide uh the

process in this way and I think like our

direction will become more important

that as we as it becomes easier to just

like generate UI go you know when that

happens the world like you've heard of

like AI slop and like the the web is

just going to be more filled with like

things that were just generated on the

fly and not refined. But I'm I'm not for

I'm not like super excited about a world

without refinement, you know? I I am

very excited about the collaboration

with like the tools and like uh the

models and things like that. So, I think

like um being able to like have a vision

or at least a direction that you want to

like guide your the the work that you're

doing that you know you want to go to uh

is like everything you need as a for the

map for like whatever decision you're

making. And I think like if you're a

designer and you noticed that and you

get scared because um you know you can

just now generate UIs and things like

that. I think it's way more important to

like be in tune with like what you find

beautiful about day-to-day things, you

know, and like actually like start

honing on that art direction of things.

Um cuz then you'll see the entire thing

as a as a breathing living thing that

can sort of like change and and get

adapted depending on like what type of

vibe you're you're feeling to to to kind

of like represent with your design. So I

do think like there is something really

special about like uh putting more

attention into like what is the the art

direction of something uh which is

something as you said is normally more

reserved for like advertising purposes

you know like when you're making an ad

or when you're making like something for

print or like a TV commercial you're

thinking about like oh what clothes are

they going to be wearing or like what's

the back the background or things like

that you know um but I think like in the

same way like all of these elements have

to like work together in a way that

feels cohesive and feels art directed.

I love that. I could not have said it

better myself. Um, and I think that is

actually a great place to leave people.

Lucas, this is awesome. Uh, thank you so

much for coming on. Um, if people want

to follow you and find you on the

internet, where can they find you? Uh,

you can find me on X under

Lucas Crespbow or or you can find me on

the every site and you can connect with

me there.

Awesome. Uh, well, thank you, sir. I

would love to have you back soon. Yeah,

hopefully we have a lot new designs to

talk about soon. I'm sure we will.

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