The Future of Fortnite Creative

Welcome to the Navit Gaming Podcast, where it is our mission to explore the business and future of video games. We

bring together the industry's brightest builders, investors, and thinkers to keep a pulse on current events, dissect emerging trends and games, share lessons learned, and have a great time.

This podcast is also part of Navik's growing ecosystem which ranges from free and premium research to consulting and advisory services. For more information,

advisory services. For more information, visit www.navic.co.

visit www.navic.co.

This episode is brought to you by Overwolf. With over 1,500 games

Overwolf. With over 1,500 games supported, 178,000 creators, and 113 million monthly active users, Overwolf is the guild for in-game creators.

Whether you're a gamer, creator, or game studio, Overwolf is the ultimate destination for integrating UGC into games. For game studios, Overwolf offers

games. For game studios, Overwolf offers Curse Forge for studios, a white label solution that lets game makers and publishers easily integrate mods safely and seamlessly into their games, both

existing and new, at zero cost. It's

battle tested by AAA studios and games including Craftton with Enzo, Studio Wildcard with Ark, Take to Interactive, and others. Alongside this, Overwolf is

and others. Alongside this, Overwolf is the all-in-one platform that enables creators to build, distribute, and monetize in-game apps, mods, and game

servers. In 2024, Overwolf paid over

servers. In 2024, Overwolf paid over $240 million to in-game creators, proving that they truly value the talents and contributions of the gaming

community. You can check out all

community. You can check out all Overwolf has to offer at overwolf.com or simply check out the link in the show notes. Today's episode is brought to you

notes. Today's episode is brought to you by Model AI, a team using the latest breakthroughs in agentic AI to transform how games are tested. Instead of relying

on brittle scripts or deep integrations, Model QA Plus uses computer vision and reasoning models so AI agents can actually play your game, finding bugs

the same way a human would, only faster.

Born from a company pivot earlier this year, Model AI was rebuilt from the ground up to tackle one of gaming's hardest problems, generalizable gameplay

without any integration work. The result

is a blackbox QA platform that's fast, scalable, and learning with every run.

Check them out at model.ai to see how AI is reshaping game QA and learn how your team can benefit. Now, let's go to the episode. Welcome to the Navic Gaming

episode. Welcome to the Navic Gaming Podcast. I'm your host, David Taylor,

Podcast. I'm your host, David Taylor, and today we're diving into the world of Fortnite Creative and the ecosystem to break down a wave of major updates Epic has rolled out over the past few weeks and some of the biggest moments from the

last few months. We're going to hit on the biggest topics shaping the ecosystem right now, including the rise of steal the brain rot, what it signals for developers, and the recent M&A activity that is occurring on the platform. From

there, we'll dig into why Epic's decision to allow in island item sales is such a huge unlock, as well as the recent introduction of UA rewards, paid campaigns, and changes to discovery and

what it means for the creators on the platform. Returning to the podcast to

platform. Returning to the podcast to discuss all these changes is Chad Mustard, the CEO of Joo Studios, uh top 10 developer in terms of plays, as well as a new guest, John Young, aka Cited

Sloth, a leader in the tycoon genre on the platform. Welcome to the podcast,

the platform. Welcome to the podcast, guys. Thanks for having us.

guys. Thanks for having us.

>> Thanks for having me.

>> Um, so just to kick us off, Chad, you've been on the podcast before. Um, but for folks who missed, could you give a quick introduction before we, uh, let John introduce himself for the first time?

>> Sure. Uh, the name's Chad Mustard. I'm

the COO, not the CEO of Joo Games. It's

okay, Dave. Um, I I've been doing Fortnite. I'm a Fortnite content

Fortnite. I'm a Fortnite content creator. Um, since Fortnite came out. um

creator. Um, since Fortnite came out. um

was done a lot of YouTube videos. Uh

when Fortnite Creative came out, I switched my content to Fortnite Creative and was spent a long time building an audience there. And then when UEFn came

audience there. And then when UEFn came out, um I partnered with Typical Gamer who was another YouTuber and we started Joo and started making maps together and

it's been a lot of fun, a lot of successes, a lot of failures as well and uh it's been a really good learning experience and excited about the future

of UFN and other UGC platforms. >> Awesome. And John?

>> Awesome. And John?

>> Yeah, my name is John. I'm also known as Sloth in the space. I actually started with Fortnite. I started playing

with Fortnite. I started playing Fortnite back when Save the World came out is what I originally got it for. And

um was excited when Creative came out, but I never hopped on. Um and I've been a developer for 10 plus years um on mobile apps. And as soon as UFN was

mobile apps. And as soon as UFN was announced, I was so excited. I had to hop in. I had to get into this. I was

hop in. I had to get into this. I was

like, I'm not going to miss this chance to make video games. And um it's led to this being my full-time job now for over the last year and a half, and I love it.

I've met a lot of people. I've gotten to go to Unreal Fest. It's It's a lot of fun. It's It's really cool how small the

fun. It's It's really cool how small the space is, but everybody's like willing to help.

>> That's amazing. We I know, you know, we had Berto on the on the podcast. He

similarly was working at Microsoft and then, you know, UFN came out and he made uh miniame box PVP which blew up and then he also, you know, had to quit his

job. So, it's just cool to see like a

job. So, it's just cool to see like a lot of people sort of being able to pursue their dreams through, you know, UGC gaming.

Yeah.

>> So, so we're going to sort of just jump right into the meat of the conversation.

I think um the thing the place where I wanted to kick things off was um you know, for a long time there wasn't a ton of breakout hits on the um on the

creative side. you know, you had your,

creative side. you know, you had your, you know, traditional games like the pit that had been there since the very beginning of of uh Fortnite Creative,

but very few had really broken through.

And then in the last month or so, I maybe m last 6 weeks, we saw Steal the Brain Route come over and basically take out take over the entire creative

platform. Um, which is interesting

platform. Um, which is interesting because Steal a Brain Rot was a breakout hit on Roblox and then somebody else came over and and made it on Fortnite.

And so I just wanted to kind of discuss the implications of this both from like uh, you know, from an inspiration perspective, but also from a like what does it mean for the Fortnite creator

ecosystem now that games can you know, be bigger than there's a game that can be bigger than Battle Royale at at at some points of the of the week. Um I I I

can start us off here, John. Um there's

it's if one it's really cool to see that it's possible to rival Epic games, right? So there there is a

potential to it just proves that there is that ability for players to stay on the platform and play something other than battle royale. That is a great inspiration I think for everyone. Um,

now the steal a brain rot game mode itself is very divisive in the community both from on the developer side to even the player side. A lot of players will

look at Epic promoting steal a brain rot and they're like why are you promoting this brain rot AI whatever you know and a lot of players get upset about that and at least on you know public posts on

X or or anywhere else you'll see a lot of negativity around it but the players that are playing it are continuing to play it. So that is one thing that shows

play it. So that is one thing that shows me that there is a demand for something other than a combat map or a combat game in the ecosystem. So that's very

encouraging. Um and we kind of saw this

encouraging. Um and we kind of saw this trend happening before even steal a brain rot. Um you you'd see uh I think

brain rot. Um you you'd see uh I think one we're seeing that Roblox has a lot of influence. Um

of influence. Um there's when something is blowing up on Roblox, people want to play it on other platforms as well. Um you've seen or or

you've even seen it on Roblox where you see something blowing up on Roblox and people make a copy of it like Peak or something on Roblox and it starts to do well.

>> Uh people want to play things on other platforms and it it Fortnite's no exception. Um, so we saw there was some

exception. Um, so we saw there was some Grow a Garden knockoffs that did fairly well. Not as well as uh Seal of Brain

well. Not as well as uh Seal of Brain Rot. Um, but or even like um 99 Nights

Rot. Um, but or even like um 99 Nights in the Forest or there's a couple of other popular Roblox games that have also done well in Fortnite. I think

still brain rot's a little different where they have done a really really good job updating the game and keeping it fresh and and interesting and the

gameplay loop is a little bit more addicting than say some of those other games I mentioned. Um but Epic has also gone all in on promoting them with like

really hero banners and stuff. So it is exciting to see that Epic is changing their systems to promote maps that are doing well. Um, and uh, you know, I hope

doing well. Um, and uh, you know, I hope to see more game modes break out like that. Uh, I don't know what those are

that. Uh, I don't know what those are going to be, but it has affected it has affected other maps like the combat maps that were doing well have actually seen taken a hit in player base because

they're playing brain rot steel brain rot as opposed to playing those. So, you

know, you'll if you're depends on who you talk to, it's a good thing or a bad thing depending on like how it's affecting their revenue, right? it is

negatively affecting other people's revenue because so many players are playing steal brain rot which is great for fren who made it like they're they're doing awesome and dooig who has

partnered with them as well which is a huge Roblox uh company um so there's positive and negatives to everything but I think it's probably more positive than

negative in terms of seeing where the ecosystem can go and where we don't have to rely on battle royale um forever Yeah. One I mean I think one of the

Yeah. One I mean I think one of the things that makes Steel Brain rot super compelling as a as a port over to Fortnite is Fortnite is all is, you

know, at its core is a PvP game. And

that's what has made Steel Brain Rot so sticky on Roblox is is the PvP aspect because every game feels different, right? And I think part of the reason

right? And I think part of the reason why Grower Garden lost Steam on Roblox and maybe never had a big success on Fortnite is because it's just a, you

know, a PV e casual sort of cozy game.

Um, and and so like that just doesn't translate quite as well as as what makes Fortnite so good, which is like that that PvP component. So I actually haven't played the game, but I can

imagine like it probably makes sense in the in the Fortnite uh universe.

>> Oh yeah. I mean, the gameplay loop for Steel Brainer is fantastic. Like, it is it's a really quick and easy thing to understand. And

it's not like a giant world that you have to go and explore. It's like

there's there's very few things. It's

very simple to understand. And and then it's a collecting thing, right? It's

like Pokemon, like you got to catch them all type thing. And so, it makes it really easy to update. to release uh you know they they they put out two or three new brain rots every week and so there's

new things to come back and try and get every week with live events and promotion and all this stuff behind it and like how like the kids want to see what are the new brain rot so they look up the YouTube videos and the YouTubers

that are promoting it and it becomes this like self- sustaining loop um because they have um some really strong uh retention mechanics in it uh versus I

mean is is Even Grow Garden had similar things where it's like, "Oh, there's new seeds and new things coming out, but the PvP element where you can like steal other people's brain rots and, you know,

there's always this like risk of losing everything is is another part of it. So,

yeah, it's a fun game. Um, you know, there's arguments to be made about the whole AI stuff behind it and like the genesis of what Brain Rod is and whatever." There's always going to be

whatever." There's always going to be something where people are like, "Oh, I can't believe kids, you know, I would never have played Brain Rock if I was a kid." Yeah, right. The same thing with

kid." Yeah, right. The same thing with like Fort When Fortnite was getting big, people were like, "Forn's the worst. I

when I was a when I was playing games, it was cool, right?" Or it's it's always going to be like that. Like the next generation will never understand the younger generation. Um, but I'm I think

younger generation. Um, but I'm I think uh it's been it has been fun to watch.

>> Yeah. I mean to me brain rod is a great case study in what happens to IP when it's not gatekept you know like if you just let give people the the ability to

play around with an IP like they'll figure out the way to make it the most fun and so like that's what made that's why Brain has been so successful is it's

like a recognizable IP that kids will engage with and there's no restrictions on the use and so everybody's making Brain Rod games because it's like well I just need something that like that will

get people in the door and then you just deliver fun gameplay and that's what you know keeps them keeps them around.

Yes. I I would hope I I hope sometimes that IPs look at this like for me I look at like the anime world where like every kid would love to play with all of those

IPs and if there was a legal way to play with those IPs without having to share so much of your revenue like I think it would it would really benefit those IPs

because it would just blow them up more people now people are like what is brain rot they look up what brain rot is and they're like okay this is dumb or this is actually kind of interesting and fun.

I think it's fun. I I I think it's fun to just be like, "Wow, you're combining all of these real world things together to make something crazy." And uh like to

me, that's I mean, it's just a it is the new Pokemon version. And and anyone can make their own brain rots now. You just

make it up and there it is. And it's

cool and fun. So, I like I like it personally. Hopefully nobody like uh

personally. Hopefully nobody like uh listens to this and like this mustard guy is the worst for liking anything AI or that came from AI. But like I I think

it's just fun. Like I could see my kids my kids have not been exposed to brain rot yet. But I know they would love it.

rot yet. But I know they would love it.

Could they be like well combine a wombat my my my wombat's my daughter's favorite animal. She be what if I combine a

animal. She be what if I combine a wombat with a chair and like there's a brain rod right? Like she would love to see that. So, like as a kid at me as a

see that. So, like as a kid at me as a kid, when I was young, I would have been like typing up all sorts of things and making things up and uh so I get it. I

get why it's it's blown up.

>> Cool. Um I want to sort of transition to the next topic of sort of the going ons of of the Fortnite creative ecosystem around some recent M&A activity, right?

The Pit was acquired. Um this is obviously a phenomenon that's really uh present on Roblox. You know, we see through our data just constantly games

are changing hands between creators.

Smaller creators selling to slightly larger creators selling to slightly larger creators selling to like large studios. I mean, this is just sort of

studios. I mean, this is just sort of like, you know, the the common path of of a piece of content on Roblox at this point. Um, and we saw some early

point. Um, and we saw some early inklings of that with um with uh Beyond Gajin buying the pit. So, just wanted to

hear if this is happening, if you guys are seeing sort of sort of this activity on a broader scale or if these are sort of one-offs with the largest games being acquired by like non-native

uh studios and kind of what I've seen, I feel like it's kind of slowed down since the the the pit acquisition. I think um like

Roblox is really attractive for other investors right now. It seems like that's the bigger focus. I I have not I guess seen a lot of different acquisitions since that one.

>> I've only seen a couple. Um I like I know I don't know if I want to name names here, but I've seen a couple of larger

uh people buy some like Brain Rock games and um and and try to grow those. So that has happened a little bit. It is nowhere

near as sophisticated a system as Roblox is. I mean, Roblox like that is kind of

is. I mean, Roblox like that is kind of like the market for games right now versus in UFN, it is still um build your own

game, see if you can grow it. Uh the I mean, Jo, we bought a couple of maps, a couple of more pro maps, and I I still think it's a viable thing in UFN because

the hardest the hardest part is building that first loyal base of a few hundred concurrent players. um to to you know anywhere from

players. um to to you know anywhere from like 200 to a,000 like that is really hard to build that base and then you can grow if you can grow it from there and

maintain it like that's where an investment becomes interesting um versus you can invest a lot of money making a game and then you might get a few

hundred players and then it just dies right because you you couldn't maintain that player base so there is still viability there I think and but I still

think there is a lot of uh hesitancy to buy and sell or buy and sell games cuz if you sell it and it blows up, you're like, "Shoot, that could have been me."

Um versus if you versus getting the payout right away kind of thing. So, it is still happening, but it is not very common.

>> Yeah. And I mean, last time I checked on on the Fortnite ecosystem, the sort of the shape of these engagement graphs was like very high peak and then basically

way way back down to the bottom, like even approaching zero. Um, and so like from a buying perspective, it's like there's not really any opportunity to like invest and make a return over a

longer period of time. Has that changed at all or do are like engagement graphs still looking like you know you get your one shot in the sun and then after a week it's basically over

>> if you're not the top crater it's hard.

Yeah, I would say that's pretty accurate. Every one of my maps it's done

accurate. Every one of my maps it's done well. um your biggest hit is your

well. um your biggest hit is your initial release and then if you get Epic's pics that's usually the second biggest like peak in my experience unless you have you know something like

a content creator or social media influencer to be able to promote it that first discover hit's usually the best one.

>> Yeah, I I would agree. It's still um I I would still say 99% of maps are going to follow that trend.

Um, that doesn't mean you there aren't maps that are breaking that trend. Uh,

some of the examples are the the brain rot maps like steal a brain rot or there's a there's a few others that have popped up that have been able to maintain a fairly good player base for,

you know, longer than a month. Um, but

to stick around and like have like a solid player base that's always there, that is extremely rare. Uh, you know, that's that's that's only happening one

out of I don't know, probably 10,000 maps like that. That that's happening.

Got it. And do you guys have any perspective on like what the key difference is between Roblox and Fortnite that allows for these Roblox games to basically sustain

audiences for significantly longer than Fortnite?

>> Mobile.

>> Yeah, I think mobile's the big part. Um,

you know, on Roblox you can be on a game on your phone in what, 10 seconds?

>> Yeah.

>> You know, you're a couple minutes on Fortnite and think as far as I last checked, it's like 80 90% of the user base on Roblox is mobile, right? But so

I I think that's the biggest challenge right now. I mean, this is honestly why

right now. I mean, this is honestly why I'm so bullish on Roblox long term is because the the platform user experience is so much more superior to any other

platform like console, PC, you know, what have you. Like being able to just get into a game for the first time and be in it in 5 minutes is just such a

good player experience. And the next best thing is like 30 seconds on mobile, like if you have a good internet connection, and then like a minute to an

hour on PC and console, depending on how big the game is. Um, so like even though the quality of the games isn't as as great, like just the ability to pop into

a new game every every minute until you find something you really like is just so so good from a player perspective, >> 100%. And I I think that is it. Uh

>> 100%. And I I think that is it. Uh

because you can I mean at any point in the middle of your class, you could just be like teacher's not looking. I can go and collect my >> my you know get a couple of brain rots

off of the off of the the line or whatever. I mean like that that is it.

whatever. I mean like that that is it.

And and so it there's retention there.

There's all sorts of things your mom isn't watching like you don't have to go boot up your Xbox or your PC to play it.

And then when there's an update, you don't have to download a 90 gigabyte download. Like there's there is Fortnite

download. Like there's there is Fortnite is at a huge disadvantage there in terms of player base growth. Um like I mean Fortnite is satur has saturated the

console market. Like there's there's the

console market. Like there's there's the only way for them to grow on console is to sell more consoles. And so there's uh

if Fortnite or Epic can ever figure out how to um really make the mobile experience more accessible, uh then then I think there's going to be some

competition for Roblox. But until that's figured out, it's Roblox is going to dominate.

>> What So what happened with the mobile launch? like I there was all, you know,

launch? like I there was all, you know, a big big announcement around them being able to offer it in at least the EU. Um,

did nothing come of that? Like was there is there not a lot of players using it?

>> I think the biggest challenge right now is still like I think Fortnite is amazing. I'm bullish on Fortnite. So,

amazing. I'm bullish on Fortnite. So,

I'll say that like I'm huge on it. I

think it's it's got great potential, but I think Fortnite is in a spot where it has to differentiate itself from Roblox because like every kid talks with each other about Roblox and then they can go

download it and be on it so quickly. Um,

you can get like in the US on iPhone, you can have Fortnite now, but it's like 30 gigabyte download, you know, and a lot of kids that they're not going to do that. They're just going to go play

that. They're just going to go play Roblox. And I think and this is a kind

Roblox. And I think and this is a kind of an addition to the brain rot stuff growing in Fortnite. It is exciting, but it's also a challenge because I think that if it doesn't DF differentiate

itself from Roblox, well, why are kids?

They're just going to go play Roblox cuz what's, you know, what's the point? I

can get in that quicker. Um, I kind of look at Fortnite as like the AAA UGC.

And so I think long term it would be really cool to see that differentiation.

And I think that's where there's a higher potential because I think that the CCU is the thing that the hot flashy thing to everybody. But the real thing

is uh spend and spend in Fortnite is way higher per customer than Roblox. So um

yeah, I think we can just if there's more things that we can do to differentiate ourselves and make better games that make people want to download Fortnite, I think that that's that

that's going to be the big thing.

>> Yeah. So, I mean, so we were we're sort of saving this I was saving this for the end of the conversation, but let's let's dive into it now and then we can get to sort of the major uh innovations that

that Fortnite has rolled out. So, um you know, Fortnite engagement is undeniably down substantially from last year and even further down from the year before,

right? They had Fortnite OG which really

right? They had Fortnite OG which really like was a huge boost to the ecosystem, to their player base. Now we're, you know, around one million, slightly over

one million CCU, whereas back then it was like three million plus. Um, and so I'm just curious like, you know, where are we in sort of the the life of

Fortnite? Is this a is this a temporary

Fortnite? Is this a is this a temporary lull and, you know, they're going to come roaring back with some huge update that nobody, you know, that blows everybody away like, you know, Fortnite

OG or the Big Bang event? um or or are we sort of in the in sort of the the other side of the peak and we're sort of just, you know, moving through the usual

player decline that comes with most games in the world?

That's a hard question to answer. Um, I

think, you know, there's es and flows to uh to any game and and especially I Fortnite is kind of a pioneer of this

whole new like live ops uh type of thing. Like it used to be like, well now

thing. Like it used to be like, well now you get Call of Duty 20,000 or whatever and and here's they just release a new game every year versus this is Fortnite

7 like we're entering chapter 7 and at the end of this week and who knows like maybe maybe that'll attract a bunch of players back and could be a really

strong chapter. A lot of it depends on

strong chapter. A lot of it depends on on that and how people respond to it.

Um, I think Epic has done a really good job at bringing people back consistently with either collabs or events or new, you know, they they take a lot of risks

with their game and updating it and trying different and new things and you never know if something's going to just

spike people coming back. Um, but I think um I I see the vision of what

UEFN and Fortnite together can can be.

And watching something like Steal a Brain Rot grow into where, you know, it's hitting hundreds of thousands of CCUs every day. Um, it shows me that there are other games that can live in

this and where it can grow and maybe there is some game that a developer makes or even Epic makes um that attracts a big audience in uh and I

think we were going to talk about this later too, but like even they announced that they're going to bring in um Unity games where you know you could

potentially play as it becomes it really becomes a platform then where you're clicking on a Unity game and playing that Unity game

like right off of Fortnite. And so

there's there I don't know. I I don't know what the future is going to hold. I

think we're definitely in a slump. Um

but that could change. I mean, the same thing with Roblox. Roblox didn't have all the player base 10 years ago. Um but

now they do, right? And they've they've seen that growth and I'm hoping I I think Epic will figure it out. Um, I

don't know how long is that's going to take though.

>> Yeah, I would I would agree. I think

that long term I think we're in a slump right now, but longterm as our ability to create new UFN and what we can do can start to rival that of of UF of Battle Royale and Reload and all those

different epic created modes. I think

that will be what ultimately drives that engagement and group growth because it's kind of like the movie Ready Player One.

Like it's like it's going to be huge, right? Like there's no other, like Chad

right? Like there's no other, like Chad said, there's no other platform where you have all these skins and everything you've invested and all this time like into this big game. You don't do that in

Call of Duty, right? Like I think that this has a opportunity to drive a really meaningful rounded adult audience even.

So um >> yeah, >> long-term potential.

>> That is a huge just like John was saying is like all those skins already exist.

You know, Disney is already got all of their IPs in it, and that's going to be even bigger in the coming year or two.

And uh but Disney playing with the Paramount characters, playing with Goku, playing with whoever, you can't do that on Roblox, at least legally.

>> No.

>> And and like that is such a big >> man, that is such a hard thing that Epic has done and tackled uh that no one else has really even had the the guts to do.

uh to and and also convinced all of those different IPs to play in the same playground. And so like that that is to

playground. And so like that that is to me is something that was is more sustainable uh or or that gives me hope for sustainability in the future.

>> Yeah, >> I think that's cool.

>> You even look at the Oh, sorry. Sorry.

>> No, you go ahead. Go ahead.

>> I was going to say you can even look at the end of this season promo. You have

Homer Simpson and Godzilla and the Megazord allin one fighting. Like where

else in the world can you see that to where you can be Master Chief shooting at Homer Simpson? You know, it's just the the potential long term is just so

huge that I don't think that I would be arguing that Roblox won't compete with that. Like you where are you going to be

that. Like you where are you going to be able to play Disney, Lego, and everything all in one place? It's it's

>> Yeah, makes sense. And I mean, you know, steal steal the brain route being successful signals that creators can, you know, drive meaningfully meaningful

engagement. Um, I think the the other

engagement. Um, I think the the other the other question that comes up though is like, you know, there's always been sort of a restrictive tool set on on UEFN. It's it's always been limited in

UEFN. It's it's always been limited in what types of games you can make. And

that's sort of where we're going to get into like the monetization, which is a huge step. But I just wanted to see like

huge step. But I just wanted to see like uh like have the tools evolved to an extent where you're you're feeling like you can make new games or are you still sort of like confined to the primary

Fortnite framework?

>> I think it's challenging. I don't it's a hard question to answer cuz like um we don't know what drives discover and

um you know we've had we had a map that we made called growarm where the play time was over 60 minutes and almost 30 me you know 30% retention day one and all of our stats were great but it

didn't have the clickthrough so it didn't take off and discover. So, some

of the tech's kind of there to get us to be able to make different games, but um you know, with that comes some risk because it's new tech and so it's also not as stable. So, I think we're getting

there. Whether we're there yet or not, I

there. Whether we're there yet or not, I I don't know.

>> I I would Yeah, I I would say there's not Yes, it's way better than it was two years ago. Like, absolutely, we're

years ago. Like, absolutely, we're getting new stuff constantly. um just

like we're about to talk about like some of these new things. But there's also some really critical things that are missing um that that you would expect in like a normal video game like

leaderboards like just having world like a worldwide leaderboard where if David scores a,000 points and he's the top in the world but I can't see that unless I

manually put it in. Like there's no automated leaderboards. Like that is

automated leaderboards. Like that is such a like a core game function. um

especially where PvP is involved that we don't have access to that, right? Or

>> I feel like we were talking about this like two years ago and it was like leaderboards was right around the corner. Like there's just some core

corner. Like there's just some core things that I'm like why why do we not have leaderboards or cross mapap persistence like where if there was some way to persist data between games then I

could make infinite worlds like I can make a huge giant world uh if I could persist that data between games and like the fact that we don't have that yet makes me like why why does that not

exist? Um, and and so there's there is a

exist? Um, and and so there's there is a there's a a number of things like that where if we had it, then that would like open up a ton of doors. Um, but there's

also there's a things that they had to do before that I get like let's have first person, let's have uh I I don't know like monetization, which we should talk about here, but there's there is

>> um but I think we'll get there. We'll

get there. It's just not it is not there yet.

>> Cool. Well, let's hop into monetization.

So, John, can you help us sort of understand what what just what just happened with with the recent update where um you know

in item sales or in in island sales, you know, was unlocked.

>> Yeah. So, um they don't have a date yet, but in December they are going to allow in-game item sales. And I think that's going to be huge because I think it'll like for my example for tycoons that's

was really popular in Roblox where you pay to unlock something or get double money. I think that will be huge to be

money. I think that will be huge to be able to help like the smaller dyes to grow and to like get some other revenue that's not necessarily click-through rate because I think and we'll talk

about this later but but I think that the in tandem item sales along with the sponsored revenue like the sponsored discovery paths like if you have the

right CPM like you could just keep boosting that you know and paying to sponsor it and then you know you're going to get ex customers in and they're going to buy the items they're going to I think that that's it's it's huge and

it's going to open a lot of doors. I

think for smaller potential creators, I'll be curious to see how it works for the bigger maps cuz like some of the examples were like selling access to a weapon and I I don't think we can do

that. I think they changed the rules say

that. I think they changed the rules say you can't make it be specifically like pay to win, but >> really >> I think it's kind of loosely based. Uh

yeah, I'm not exactly sure all the rules on it, but from what I've seen, like you can you could gatekeep a weapon if you wanted behind a payw wall and or even opening this door. You could say you

can't open this door unless you pay for it. So,

it. So, >> um >> even Tom Jen had the paying 100 V-Bucks to jump.

>> Yeah, exactly.

So, I think you're going to see a lot of tech people, a lot of gray area. Um, and

and probably even a lot of bad area, too, like coming out. So, I'm I'm assuming there'll there'll be there'll be a lot of rules that come out later. Uh, it's going to be a little bit

later. Uh, it's going to be a little bit of wild west for a while, cuz I I know Tim Sweeney has always said he's always kind of been opposed to this idea of pay to win or microtransactions within

games. And I I'm not sure what changed

games. And I I'm not sure what changed his mind. Uh maybe maybe the current

his mind. Uh maybe maybe the current slump in Fortnite has uh changed his mind a little bit to be like, well, how can we monetize UFN better? Uh because

Epic will make money off of that just like Roblox does. And so I I think uh it'll be interesting to see how it evolves. Uh but I also think it's not

evolves. Uh but I also think it's not going to be like Roblox where, you know, everyone's just used to it in Roblox. They've had it for 14 years. uh

Roblox. They've had it for 14 years. uh

versus everything has been free in Fortnite for seven.

>> Yeah.

>> And you don't ever have to spend a penny on that game to change the experience.

And now you go into your the game you like and and there's a payw wall behind the new gun or uh the person that pays can get a boost that makes them more

powerful than you. Uh that's going to be there's going to be some pain around that I think in the player base and people will like it. Some people will be like, "Sweet. I can, you know, there's

like, "Sweet. I can, you know, there's going to be the whales out there that are spending all the money, and there's going to be a lot of kids that are like, I don't want to play this anymore because this guy's killing me." So, it's

going to be a very fine balance, I think, for game devs to to figure out how to to navigate it.

>> I think that's going to be the challenge because if you have the top red versus blue map and you charge access to the minigun, why are they going to go play yours? They can just go play the other

yours? They can just go play the other game and play get it for free. Y

>> so I think that as creators we're going to have to be really creative on how we monetize because of that fact. Like I

don't think that we'll be able to do the like example in Roblox you can unlock to be able to automatically collect your money in a lot of tycoons. I don't think that's going to work because why are you going to do that when you can go play

another tycoon that already has it set up. You know I think we're going to have

up. You know I think we're going to have to have more meaningful in-game purchases in order to have that be successful >> at least to start. you know, maybe in a year everyone's just gonna be like, "Oh,

whatever." They're just so used to it.

whatever." They're just so used to it.

Um, but I think that I think it's going to be this first year is going to be a lot of experimentation and um and and hoping people don't

get burned off of your map because you did something that they didn't like. or

or maybe it's worth it because like you said like like John was saying um you have you might not have 10,000 CCUs but you have a hundred that are paying like

regularly and then that becomes worth it. So um so who knows it it you could

it. So um so who knows it it you could see a lot more games like that that have small player bases but that they're they're paying out uh $5 a month or something and you're like okay sweet I

can sustain this. Uh so I think it is a good thing but it's going to be a an interesting maybe painful process to as people adjust.

>> Yeah. I mean I think the headline is just like it allows for more niche content to exist right because if >> because like ultimately for people to do this they need to be making some money.

There's obviously creators who will do it for free and just do it because they, you know, love to make games, but you know, you see it on on Roblox all the time. The games, if a game reaches a

time. The games, if a game reaches a certain level, it stops getting updated because it can't generate enough money to sustain the people working on it. So,

you know, it just gets dropped and it's done. And so, you know, I think for

done. And so, you know, I think for Fortnite, especially given, you know, that the number of players is lower, but the but the, you know, willingness to spend is higher. This is definitely

important for for a diversity of content to be to be viable. And then, you know, you can keep updating it and then, who knows, maybe you you add a feature that ends up making it go viral. And then

this game that would have never existed ends up being a major driver of engagement because you know you find the the sweet spot and you're able to monetize it.

>> Yes.

>> To sustain it long enough.

>> Um so so yeah, I mean I I agree with everything you guys were saying. It's

definitely like at the end of the day it should be a game design choice. It

shouldn't be like a restriction. like

the creators will know what's the best choice for the audience and and they have the incentives to do what's what's best.

>> It is a little awkward, I will say, because Epic has their own items that they're selling. So, this isn't like

they're selling. So, this isn't like Roblox because Roblox doesn't have a core game that they are or even a core uh, you know, system where they're selling things versus Epic is like

>> battle royale. They have they have uh controller or discovery. They can they can feature whatever they want whenever they want their games uh whether they're successful or not. I mean I look at like

Ballistic Mode which is their first person kind of like um CS GO kind of knockoff and it sat in home bar for like

I don't know six to 12 months and it was getting it was it was getting way less players than maps that were getting no promotion. And so we're we're really

promotion. And so we're we're really competing against Epic, but Epic has all the they have all the keys to the kingdom kind of thing. And they even say

you can't you can't mess with skins. You

can't mess with with with gun skins and and any cosmetics that mess with something they would have bought from Fortnite. Uh we cannot mess with that.

Fortnite. Uh we cannot mess with that.

So we have to do stuff that are maybe surrounds that but we can't change it or so it makes it it is a little bit it's it is more restrictive than like another platform like Roblox

>> and that's a do you think that's a technical constraint or that is a business decision?

>> It's a business decision 100%. Well, and

there's current like I can't change uh I mean there is things I could do like I could put on I could put boots on someone and um and say yeah it's just

cosmetic but and Epic is saying if you change the boot to have like affect the game like if it's a speed boot instead of just a cosmetic boot then you can sell it. So, there's just a lot of these

sell it. So, there's just a lot of these like >> nuanced things that are going to be people are probably going to abuse um be like, "Oh, yeah, that boot boosted your

damage output by 0.1% or something." I

don't know. Like,

it's going to be a little sticky or or a little bit uh I don't know, weird for a while. But, um I don't know. I don't

while. But, um I don't know. I don't

know how long that'll last, but Epic is it's just a little awkward between their system and our and what our systems can or could be.

>> I wonder if the fear is like if people are selling like cosmetics in these experiences that they'll stop purchasing items in the item store.

>> No, no, no. It's I think the worry is that you are interfering with something they've already bought, right? So it's

like, "Oh, you're covering up Peely, the banana you bought and with uh something else and then and then they're like, "Oh, I don't want that or I didn't

want know what I was buying." And so I think that's a little bit of the concern there.

>> Yeah.

>> Cuz if you're spending Roblox or sorry, if you're saying spending V-Bucks, I don't think Epic cares. They're like,

"We're making the money uh cuz you're spending it and whatever you're spending on, I don't think they care." Uh whether it's a skin or opening a door, >> but I I also think they don't want to

mess with people's things they've already bought.

>> Or like making them be able to sell something in a game that's very close to the cosmetic that they would buy in the item shop, >> right? Yeah. You know, I think that

>> right? Yeah. You know, I think that that's a challenge, but I think that >> as Fortnite grows, like I think they will move away from being the main game and be the platform, you know, I think

that's just growing pains that we're going to be in for now.

>> Got it. Yeah. I mean, like on on Roblox, if you're using that as sort of a case study, like you have your cosmetic, you have your avatar cosmetics and then you have in-game cosmetics.

>> Yeah. And like if you decide that you want to overwrate the entire avatar and just give someone like a completely different character, that is that is the, you know, creator's choice and then

they have to sort of deal with the consequences of people not liking it uh because they can't use their own custom avatar. Like it seems kind of weird that

avatar. Like it seems kind of weird that they would restrict this in the way that they're doing. Definitely a little

they're doing. Definitely a little weird, >> but but also there's just uh you know it's it could mess with the base mechanics of you know Fortnite movement,

etc. And maybe that'll change. I I think it'll change in the coming years, kind of like John was saying as Battle Royale becomes less of the the main game of

Fortnite. Um but I think it's going to

Fortnite. Um but I think it's going to be a it'll be a long transition period, >> probably years.

All right, let's move on to UA user acquisition. Um, so they introduced a

acquisition. Um, so they introduced a couple things, uh, you know, UA rewards, some changes to discovery, and, um, paid

campaigns. So,

campaigns. So, um, first off, you know, Chad, you're you're a content creator. curious to

understand like how you're approaching the UA rewards and the direct links that they introduce that allow you to go from a link directly into an experience rather than going through the whole

process of like uploading into Fortnite and then loading into the game.

>> We haven't really used it.

>> It's not super good yet. Uh mostly it it just comes back to the same argument of you know download sizes and stuff because if someone hasn't downloaded Fortnite and on their phone cuz it's

still like most people play most people are playing Fortnite on console. I think

it's like >> 80% or something like that. John, you

can correct me if I'm wrong. I don't

know exactly that but it's like the vast majority of players are on console. So

that right there completely like there there's no point to the link. Uh, so whether you're clicking on it on your PC or on your phone and it's taking you to to that, it

it still has to be you have downloaded it. If you haven't downloaded, it's a

it. If you haven't downloaded, it's a it's a massive download that's going to take you an hour or more to download and then even then it takes a while to boot up because it is so much memory and then

you have to download the map if you haven't. So it's it's it's not something

haven't. So it's it's it's not something that we're using a lot. Uh like it there's no there's not a huge benefit to the links um yet. Uh so but if they're

working on thin client which is supposed to be smaller download sizes where you can just download UFN maps or whatever and as we start to see that come out we'll probably start testing it out more

but but even then we're not allowed to do we're not allowed to do like paid advertisements outside of Fortnite. Um

it's that breaks terms of service. We

can say, "Hey, click the link in the description below or something." But

even that is not super effective. Like

it's easier just to say, "Hey, go search for >> my game or the code in like when you boot up Fortnite, make sure you go

search >> brain rot and ours is the first one on there, right?" Like that is a that is

there, right?" Like that is a that is more effective than saying click on this link cuz then people are like, "Well, where am I going?" Like I don't like So there's there it is still more effective to do that.

>> So do you think they they pushed this update just because it was easy? Like

what's the >> Yeah, I I think it was probably it's not that hard to do um technically, but it still doesn't make sense uh with with

the current system. Um, I think it is probably in preparing for what's coming down the because I think it's coming like they're going to figure out how to

to have smaller download sizes where mobile will become a bigger player. I

don't think I I think Epic because of the lawsuit with Apple and Google. They

hadn't been working on mobile, but that that is resolving. It's still ongoing, but it's available in the EU. It's

available in the US. it's it's it's getting becoming more available in other uh territories every week kind of thing.

And so I think that's kind of jostled them into like okay we got to figure this out fast and versus I don't think they were working on it before because they're like we don't know we could be in litigation for another 10 years

what's the point of spending all the time developing it when we can't we can't put it on any platform. So, um,

yeah, we'll see. I think I think we'll see more changes in the year, in the next year, and then linking will become more effective.

>> Cool. And then the other thing that was introduced was paid campaigns, which I'm guessing is sponsored ads. Uh, right.

So, basically the ability to pay for um Discovery to show you in a in a sponsored tab on Fortnite. Um, so just want to get your early early um,

perspectives on what this means for you guys as creators, how you're going to use it. Is there anything that gets

use it. Is there anything that gets unlocked through this or is this a opportunity for Epic to just sort of like take some money back from from you guys?

John, what's your experience so far? the

click-through rate is a lot worse and it's uh you know in my experience like at max the best case it seems like it's 10% of what it is normally in discover.

>> Yeah, >> it seems like people kind of gloss over.

Now that being said, I guess if you have a game that has 10% clickthrough and you can get a percent and have custom items down the road, I think that that'll be viable. I think in its current state, it

viable. I think in its current state, it kind of feels like something that allows the bigger players to just be relevant because like you can see somebody that has had a big map from like the earlier

like a year or two ago, you know, or they have a couple thousand CCU if they can spend enough money to push it into Homebar for example, that will recover that. But I think it's tougher for

that. But I think it's tougher for smaller devs to make it work right now.

>> Yeah, that's kind of what we're experiencing a little bit. Uh I mean we've been watching people that are doing it. We've done some of our own

doing it. We've done some of our own campaigns and uh right now the CPMs are pretty high uh I would say uh for what

you're getting and and not only that like the people if you if we've seen so >> when you say when you say CPM what what are you referring to?

>> Okay. So that's so a CPM is how much you spend for a,000 impressions. So it's

it's the same like if you're if you're spending money to do Google ads or anywhere else it's not too different.

It's very similar.

>> And then what is the cost?

>> Well, it it depends. Like you can go you can bid because it's it's an auction bid to where if John says, "Hey, I want to bid for this space and I'm I'm willing

to pay $5 a $5 CPM and I say I'm willing to spend $10." Mine will outbid John's at $51. And then if John's like, "Well,

at $51. And then if John's like, "Well, I'm going to adjust it to 550." And then I but mine will out bid his at 5.56. And

um and then so I'll get the impression over him. But I I also have a daily

over him. But I I also have a daily spend limit. So if I hit my daily spend

spend limit. So if I hit my daily spend limit, if I put that at $100, then John's could take over and say, "Okay, now John's next at $5." and he'll uh get

that impression over mine because I've already reached my daily limits. And so

right now the limits are the top is $20 for CPM which is absurd. I mean to make back $20 on an impression or a click. I

mean just imagine like you have to pay $20 for a game. Like someone would have to spend $20 or more on your game for that to make sense. Um so if someone's

paying that it's an absurd price. Um,

but you can spend up to that much. Um,

probably a better range is in anywhere from 50 cents to $2. Like if you're spending over $2 on a CPM, you're probably not like you're probably

wasting your money. But a lot of these guys, I think, are spending that over that right now. And um the problem is like if you

right now I think if you put your daily um budget too low you're just going to get this spike. You'll get like one spike. You'll spend it'll spend all your

spike. You'll spend it'll spend all your daily budget within like 5 10 minutes or or like a like if you put your daily budget at $100, you'll probably get 20

minutes of impressions and that's not going to do anything for your game. Versus I've seen some maps

your game. Versus I've seen some maps that are, you know, in the sponsor row for 24 hours. I bet they're spending tens of thousands of dollars for that.

And that might be >> how much are they making back do you think?

>> I don't know like that's the problem is like you don't know like they're getting into it will get you into other categories that will sustain the player base right so

>> if it works for a day and then you stay in top rated or you stay in some other discovery rows or it gets you into home bar like John was saying then it's

probably worth it because then it's like you can see a longer tail of players versus If you're just going to get a spike for an hour, that's not enough or or 10

minutes or whatever it is, it's that's not enough to sustain it. And for bigger maps like that already have player bases, I haven't seen it be effective at

all. Like cuz they're already getting

all. Like cuz they're already getting millions of of impressions a day and you paid for 500,000. Like you might see a slight bump, but it's even then it's like, is that really worth it? Mhm.

>> I think what we're seeing is bigger creators that have disposable income are saying, "Well, now I can go boost my small my map that doesn't have any plays on it now and see if I can get that into Discovery."

Discovery." >> And so, it's tough for small creators because they don't have $10,000 to go spend on sponsored rows. But some of these guys that are making a million or plus a month, they can say they say, "I

don't care about $10,000. I'll just see what see what I can can do here." And so it it is tough. Um, but it's also only

been out for a week, not even a week.

And we'll see how it levels out. And

like John was saying, once monetization comes out, you might even be able to justify like, oh, if I could spend a dollar, but I make a buck 50, then you can just ramp it up as you as you need,

right? And and start to build a solid

right? And and start to build a solid player base. So, we'll see. I think

player base. So, we'll see. I think

right now it's still just like people are shooting every which way trying to figure out like what's going to work. Including us,

like including my company. We're like I don't know. We we tried one thing. It

don't know. We we tried one thing. It

was like that was a that was a giant waste of money. And we're trying something different. We'll see if that's

something different. We'll see if that's a big waste of money or not. I don't

we'll we'll try and figure it out. But

um I think it's right now it's better for smaller maps than bigger maps. Um

but I also think there's not it's it's very expensive currently.

Because and I also and I also think there's people that are doing this that don't understand what a CPM even is.

>> Yeah.

>> And they're like, "Oh, I'll put my max at $10."

at $10." >> It's wild.

>> And it's just like, you don't know what like And they're spending it, right?

They're they're like, it drives up the the the the auction to where it doesn't even make sense to to to to bid because someone's out bidding you and then

driving it up. So, I think I think it'll level out as people start to realize I'm wasting a ton of money. Um, and it'll start to level out probably more in

that$ one to $2 range is is what I'm guessing is going to where what where end up >> and they show us an average too. So,

like that first day it was 67 cents per the CPM was that was the average bid.

So, like you could say I want to spend 11 cents per you know thousands in that that first day. Ours was two, right? So,

it was like >> somebody at least in my category or whatever it was like people were bidding.

>> Somebody has to be paying that higher amount because I'd imagine they get the front line in the sponsored impressions row and there's some that have been in there for a few days. So, there's no way they're spending 50 cents a thousand.

>> No, no, they're they're they're well over two would be my guess.

>> So, it sounds like the takeaway is like don't engage right now. like wait till the things settle down, people waste their money and and move away from it and then you can sort of start to bid at

a reasonable price.

>> I would say wait until you can measure it yourself in terms of like uh with monetization like you're like I can I

can earn $3 per user then it makes sense to spend $2 to acquire them. Right now we don't even

acquire them. Right now we don't even know like the problem is you don't know you don't know what per user how much you're making cuz it is all engagement based and the engagement is based on how

much Epic made that month. So we don't know like did Epic have a good month in November. Do they have a good month in

November. Do they have a good month in December? Probably those are their

December? Probably those are their better months. So it might be worth

better months. So it might be worth spending more in December and November.

But in the middle of July I would say heck no because that's like always their their worst month. and your C your your output is going to be way less than. So

it's it is really um it's really hard to base it off of engagement payouts. Um but if you can

engagement payouts. Um but if you can come down to where I I am earning X amount per user, then it makes more sense.

>> All right, so we're kind of coming to the the end of the conversation. So the

final question for you guys would be, what's one change that Epic could make tomorrow that would most help your work?

I think for me, I don't know. I guess probably more better ability to create custom items and weapons, I think, would be number

one for me. I think until then, I mean, we can kind of do it now, but it's really hacky to try to make a custom item or a custom weapon. And I think that will be the thing that will be

huge. And I'll just add a slight caveat

huge. And I'll just add a slight caveat of also the ability to manage our players data. If I have a player that

players data. If I have a player that loses their data and it's wiped, I can do nothing to it right now. And that

kind of scares me with inapp purchase with in-game purchases coming that, you know, if that something happens to their account, they can lose all their progress. That's I think because I

progress. That's I think because I really want to get the same money and they paid real money for stuff and I don't want them to lose that like so I think the biggest thing is that

stability and data and custom stuff would be huge.

>> Yeah. I I mean those are both absolutely and this is the problem is we you you if you asked a room of 10 developers they'd probably all have a different answer and

they all they'd all be right and so that is a big problem right there. Uh,

but I would say for me um and what Joo is doing, we we have this desire to build bigger games and it's really hard right now to build anything more than

like a mini game and uh like there's so many restrictions on memory and how big your world can be. Um, that's why I kind of mentioned before cross mapap

persistence because then we could do stuff where like the interior of the castle is one map and then when you go outside it's a different map but it's still the same

game and then you go into the dungeon and that's a different map and >> but it's still the same map. It's still

the same game, but so I I don't know the solution to it, but I would love more of like either more memory or more opt like

a much better optimized experience where we can fit more into a single game. Um,

cuz we want to build bigger and cooler experiences. That AAA experience that

experiences. That AAA experience that John's talking about that you can't get in Roblox or or people don't want to play in Roblox. I don't know. I actually

don't know how big you can make stuff in Roblox. pretty big. I think I I've been

Roblox. pretty big. I think I I've been playing uh blocks fruits. That's pretty

big game, but it's it is I don't know.

It's we're so limited right now to what we can do. So, I would that would probably be my number one, but like I said before, I think you if you asked any other developer, they'd probably say something different. They'd say

something different. They'd say leaderboards or they'd say uh I don't know. There's there's a ton of things

know. There's there's a ton of things that we're lacking right now that we need before we can really take off.

>> Interesting. some some of those some of the things you guys have mentioned as as restraints. I wonder like how much of it

restraints. I wonder like how much of it is a a like a cost issue for Epic to like deliver those things like memory for example like um you know persistence

like having data you know stored reliably uh these are all things that cost money and we you know we saw with Roblox's latest earnings right they grew their

audience but you know their their profitability uh actually shrank and so it's like oh well that's that's not a good signal in terms of like

the the the variable cost side if you're adding more players but it's costing you more money than you're making. Um

>> so I'm sure there's I'm I'm sure that's part of it >> cuz everyone says, "Oh yeah, I want first person but then they they were they spend all this time making first person available and then nobody plays it."

it." >> You're like shoot that was a waste of time, right? And like what is the the

time, right? And like what is the the bet that's going to pay off is is definitely a problem cuz we we could go give Epic a a giant list and then they

could go hire a ton of developers to come and build it and then no one plays it. What's the point? So that's

it. What's the point? So that's

definitely a concern. Um and I also think one of Fortnite's problems is it's on so many devices. Um it's on like really the right now the pro the biggest

problem is the Nintendo Switch.

Um, that's why we have to have smaller maps or like maps with 100 100,000 memory or something or under that >> is because the Nintendo Switch they have

to continue to support. Uh, and same thing with bringing mobile in that's going to create all sorts of devices you have to continue to support. So, there's

there there are issues with that, but I think not that they're not solvable. Um,

but yeah, I don't I I'm sure Epic is weighing their profitability and like what's worth it and they're like I don't think UFN's made them any money yet.

100% it hasn't. Like it's just it's a big bet into the future. And how long are they willing to make that bet is a good question.

>> Yeah. I mean, they've it's been over a billion dollars that they've put into just creator payouts, not even counting the expense of like running all those

servers and most and the labor to build all of the infrastructure and you know create those updates. So

>> yeah, I think the biggest challenge is that is just a dev myself formally. I

think their problem is everything is so tightly connected to VR.

>> Yeah. I mean, we see it where a new se I mean, you guys do it all the time and Jo the new BR season comes out and it wrecks something big. Um, and so you have to rush to fix it. Um, so I think

that once we have that finally decoupled where they are doing BR and UFN and they're doing these new Disney experiences and Lego experiences, it's all coming in UFN like and it's not in

some special like Unreal Engine version.

Um, I think that's when we'll see more success, but it just has to be a nightmare to try to disconnect all of that from from Fortnite because that's what it's all built off of. So,

>> yeah.

>> Yep.

>> I feel like they said that they were going to make the next uh Fortnite season in UFN like a year ago and then it sounds like that hasn't materialized.

Well, they they said that uh I think I feel like it was Unreal Fest 2024 that they their goal was to build >> New Orleans. Yeah.

>> Yeah. And it was and I was like really?

>> But they but it was like uh they said their goal was by the end of this year, but earlier this year they said that's not they're not ready for that yet. And

so there's still I think it's still a goal, but we'll I don't know if that'll ever I mean I hope it's it's a possibility, but not this season. Not or

not this chapter.

>> Cool, guys. Um so just in closing, like what's the best way for folks to follow your work and and keep up to date on what you guys are doing in the space?

>> Yeah, for me I mean you can look sloth games up on Fortnite.gg or Cited Sloth on Twitter. Um, it's my same handle on

on Twitter. Um, it's my same handle on all of my socials. So,

>> for me, it's just search Mustard Plays.

You can find my YouTube channel or Twitter or where wherever. Um, or you can look up Joo uh games. I think it's juggames.com if you want to see what the company's doing there. Um, yeah, those

are my main things.

>> Awesome. Well, thanks for coming on the podcast, guys. This has been an

podcast, guys. This has been an illuminating conversation and uh you know hopefully next time we'll have some uh exciting updates on how all of this

has progressed and uh in and how bullish we are on on the Fortnite ecosystem long term.

>> Thank you for having us.

>> If you enjoyed today's episode, whether on YouTube or your favorite podcast app, make sure to like, subscribe, comment, or give a fivestar review. And if you want to reach out or provide feedback,

shoot us a note at podcastnavic.co or find us on Twitter and LinkedIn.

Plus, if you want to learn more about what Navic has to offer, make sure to check out our website, www.navic.co.

There you can sign up for the number one games industry newsletter, Navic Digest, or contact us to learn about our wide-ranging consulting and advisory

services. Again, that is www.navic.co.

services. Again, that is www.navic.co.

Thanks for listening and we'll catch you in the next episode.