The Incredible Results of AI Learning | Alpha School

When it comes to academics, no teachers all replaced by AI.

>> Students, in, a, physics, class, had, deeper levels of engagement and perform better with an AI tutor than with a Harvard professor. Starting in preK, we pay

professor. Starting in preK, we pay kids. We pay them cold hard cash, baby.

kids. We pay them cold hard cash, baby.

We pay kids for hitting their academic goals.

>> Your, goal, with, alpha, is, to, combine, the Plato Aristotle aristocratic education and turn it for the masses. So, in a traditional system, when a student's not doing well, it's usually considered the

student's fault. We believe that if a

student's fault. We believe that if a child is not thriving in our system, uh it's our fault. It's the school's fault.

We're 28th in the world in math. We have

a third of students that are not reading at grade level. We have not seen such poor learning for 30 years, since the '9s.

McKenzie Price is the co-founder of Alpha, a K- to2 school whose entire curriculum is taught by AI. Her students

spend only 2 to three hours a day on academics and yet consistently score in the 99th percentile on standardized tests before going on to study in the best colleges in the world. In this

interview, we're going to investigate what enables Alpha's results to be so remarkable and through that gain valuable insight into the perennial questions in the philosophy of

education. Can virtue be taught? Does

education. Can virtue be taught? Does

nature overpower nurture? And what is the relationship between extrinsic and intrinsic motivation? My name is

intrinsic motivation? My name is Jonathan B. I'm a founding member of

Jonathan B. I'm a founding member of Cosmos where we deliver educational programs, fund research, invest in AI startups, and believe that philosophy is critical to building technology. If you

want to join our ecosystem of philosopher builders, you can find roles we're hiring for, events we're hosting and other ways to get involved on jonathanb.com/cosmos.

jonathanb.com/cosmos.

Without further ado, Mackenzie Price.

So you begin your latest essay on the issues of modern education with a quote from Ficta um commenting on the Prussian education system which our current education system is built upon. And this

is the >> all, these, years, later.

>> Yeah,, this, is, the, ficta, quote., Education

should aim at destroying free will so that after pupils are thus schooled they will be incapable throughout the rest of their lives of thinking or acting otherwise than as their school

masters would have wished. Tell us about the true origins of modern education.

What's wrong with it?

>> What, every, parent, dreams, that, their child will grow up to be docile obedient, silent, and uh non-thinking for themselves. Right. Exactly. We had a

for themselves. Right. Exactly. We had a way of educating people where it was based on, you know, tutors. And think of Socrates tutoring Plato, who tutored Aristotle, who tutored Alexander the

Great, who went on to conquer, you know the known world. But it was reserved for the elite, right? It was for the rich and there was a mass of people who uh

were never going to become learned right? Then in the 1800s, there was a

right? Then in the 1800s, there was a man named Horus man and he started the Massachusetts Board of Education. Uh and

he had a very noble goal. He wanted to figure out how to help educate the masses. Not just make education

masses. Not just make education something for the rich, uh but how can he help everybody? and he was super motivated by the Prussian education system which had figured out how to

educate a lot of people uh in a timebased system and that is really where the start of the teacher in front of the classroom model was born but here

was the challenge it was really had some I think darker undertones and darker goals authoritarian >> yeah, I, mean, we, we, had, the, industrial revolution coming on we needed to figure

out how do we train factory workers ers how do we get people to be compliant and to do as told? And you know, Rockefeller was one of the people who uh really, I

think, when we look at it, had some, you know, dark ambitions for raising up this next generation of people that would would learn how to be good factory workers. Uh now, what's crazy about

workers. Uh now, what's crazy about that, that was happening in the 1800s.

It is 2025 and not much has changed. Whether you go to, you know, a rural school in India or you go to one of the most elite private

schools in New York City, you basically will see the same thing when it comes to how we educate young people. You'll see

a teacher leading a group of students in a classroom.

>> And, I, wanted, to, start, our, conversation off with this discussion because I wanted to tell our audience what the stakes are because it's not just about how good is their SAT score. It's not

just about how much knowledge can we cram into them and education. And this

is why the great philosophers Plato Rouso cared so much about education as a political kind of kind of object is because it's the very formation of a citizenry. My understanding is that your

citizenry. My understanding is that your goal with alpha is to combine the Plato Aristotle aristocratic education >> and, turn, it, for, the, masses,, make, it, for the masses, right? It's a synthesis of

these two kinds of education. So tell us how you've started alpha and and how you um want to go about accomplishing this ambitious goal.

>> Absolutely., When, I, became, a, mom,, it, was time for my daughters uh to go off to school. Uh my husband and I decided to

school. Uh my husband and I decided to send them off to uh a really fantastic public school. Uh both my husband and I

public school. Uh both my husband and I were public school uh products and uh so it was time for them to go uh put my girls on the bus on their first days and

then I noticed uh exactly the kind of challenges that you know we've talked about in this larger historical context.

uh you know, they were told to sit still and learn to raise their hand and ask permission to go to the bathroom and wait quietly while the rest of the class was doing something else, whatever that was. And it sort of culminated for me in

was. And it sort of culminated for me in a conversation about halfway through my oldest daughter's second grade year. She

and I were talking one day and she said "I don't want to go to school tomorrow mom." And I said "What do you mean you

mom." And I said "What do you mean you love school?" And she looked at me and

love school?" And she looked at me and she said, "School is so boring." And I just had this moment of like, oh my goodness, in two and a half years, they

have taken this kid who is like tailor made to be a great student and a curious, interested learner, and they've wiped away that passion. And when I say they, it wasn't the incredible teachers

that she was working with every day. It

was a system.

>> It, was, the, system., It, was, this, teacher in front of the classroom system, right?

And we have known for 40 years there have been thousands of papers that have gone and talked about how kids can learn two, five, 10 times faster in that

onetoone masterybased tutoring environment like Plato and Aristotle. Uh

and every single one of those papers has started or ended with unfortunately this can't be done in a traditional classroom as we know it. And so in 2014 uh I

decided to take matters in my own hands and uh started the first school. We

started with 16 kids and uh my girls were in third and first grade. And uh

now 11 years later uh where we are is we have been able to recreate this onetoone mastery based uh tutoring experience for

many kids. And the answer is probably

many kids. And the answer is probably something that you have been studying a lot about artificial intelligence.

>> Right., Uh, before, we, dive, into, that,, let me give um you a challenge. Let me play a devil's advocate or in this in this case ficta's advocate.

>> All, right., I, love, it., which, is when ficta talks about destroying the individual will. It's to make citizens

individual will. It's to make citizens that can obey a higher order such that the nation state can function as one and adapt in this kind of modern industrial world. And I think you and I who have

world. And I think you and I who have both run companies before in your case is the school that um it's clear that in a company you actually don't want everyone to be an

independent thinker especially about the most fundamental parts of a company.

Sometimes you just want people who can execute right?

>> So, let's, say, you, accomplish, your ambitious goal and you educate a billion kids or something all with this new alpha model, right? What what Plato and Aristotle was into antiquity, what uh

the Prussian system was to modernity alpha will be this AI based one will be for for postmodernity, let's say.

>> And, we, get, a, whole, citizenry, of independent citizens.

>> Is, that, going, to, create, some, kind, of chaos in our society? Is that going to screw up our our political economic system?

>> Absolutely, not., I, think, what, it, is, going to do is it's going to allow us to unlock human potential. And I think that the more informed, the more educated

the better critical thinkers we have uh, and people who can be clear about the intersection of their passions and their talents. And whether that be

their talents. And whether that be plumbing or it's running government offices, right? It's any of those

offices, right? It's any of those things. Uh, I I just never see a world

things. Uh, I I just never see a world where people having access to phenomenal education that helps them live up to whatever their potential is is a bad thing.

>> I, see., So,, I've, had, the, pleasure, of shadowing you for this last week visiting all these different alpha schools in Miami, in Austin, and the the results you're getting from a standard

test perspective is incredible. You're

consistently bringing these kids up to 99th percentile regardless of where they started. A lot of these kids were were

started. A lot of these kids were were behind.

>> And, what's, even, crazier, is, that, they're only spending 2 hours a day.

>> Yeah.

>> Doing, this., So, they're, getting, 2x, the amount of learning with 20% amount of time. A 5x reduction in time.

time. A 5x reduction in time.

>> Yeah.

>> And, so, tell, us, about, the, AI, system, and the software that you guys have developed that that enables this. Yeah.

So uh what we've really realized with artificial intelligence is it finally gives us the ability to provide that onetoone mastery based experience for every single kids. So to be clear this

is not a robot teacher standing in front of a classroom guiding 25 kids. These

are every single kid has their own personalized learning platform that is figuring out exactly what a child knows what a child doesn't know, what their

pace of learning is, and how they can get to mastery in the quickest ways possible. And so the thing that's so

possible. And so the thing that's so interesting is having to spend hours and hours a day plus homework to do academics. It's just not true. When

academics. It's just not true. When

you're getting that onetoone personalized learning experience academics can be done. and not just done crushed in only a couple of hours a day.

And you know standardized tests in a traditional system the kid takes the tests and then afterwards whatever the results are nothing changes for that child right >> based, on >> about, the, learning, experience

>> nothing, for, that, child, changes.

Alternatively, when you think about the model that we have now and what's possible with having a personalized learning platform is a child can take that standardized test and then it gives

us so much information on a very granular level of what a child knows and what they don't know and then what we can do is we can feed those results into

our personalized AI tutor so that we can develop lessons that meet those holes that a kid has. And so, you know, when you think about it, we start off in kindergarten and first grade. We're

learning our ABCs. We're learning

addition and subtraction. Over time, you know, in in math, it goes to multiplication, division. Pretty soon

multiplication, division. Pretty soon you're doing fractions. Then you're

doing algebra. You're going up to calculus. And you know what happens in

calculus. And you know what happens in that traditional system is uh when a child is not getting mastery of the fundamentals as they move up they're developing holes and they're basically

building a very shaky what I think of as a Jenga tower. Yeah. A Jenga tower. And

so it's really hard to do algebra if your fractions aren't quite there. It's

hard to know your fractions well if your multiplication table is shaky. Right.

And in that traditional system where a kid could miss a day of school or have a not great teacher or just simply not be catching on, once they fall behind, they

just keep falling further and further behind. Uh whereas in this personalized

behind. Uh whereas in this personalized learning system, uh we take the information to build that solid foundation. We can actually finally

foundation. We can actually finally teach kids to mastery that goes at their pace, not at the pace of a timebased classroom.

>> Right., I, see., I, remember, you, sharing, me a statistic that's wild, which is how how many% of American high schoolers can't like read or or something.

>> Yeah., So,, you, know,, uh, the, United States, you'd think we'd be good at math, right? We'd think we're a

math, right? We'd think we're a developed nation. We should be pretty

developed nation. We should be pretty good at this. We are, you know, a major entrepreneurial capital. We're 28th in

entrepreneurial capital. We're 28th in the world in math, right? And we have a third of students that are not reading at grade level. Uh the nation's report card came out uh at the beginning of

this, year, uh and, it, was, dismal., We, have not seen such poor learning for 30 years since the '9s. And you know, everyone thought this was a COVID issue and that we'd catch up. And the problem is, and

now it highlights this exact problem which is during COVID, we had so much learning loss. And then suddenly these

learning loss. And then suddenly these kids who hadn't gotten a great second or third or fourth grade experience suddenly they're in fifth grade. And

that poor teacher has no choice but to teach fifth grade curriculum. You know

you cannot take a teacher and give them 20 plus students and say, "Okay, I'm gonna help this student who needs to go back to second grade. I'm also going to help the student who could be doing seventh grade work. It's just not

possible." And that's what's so exciting

possible." And that's what's so exciting about this new kind of >> transformation, we, have, in, education, uh where we can finally turn that model on its side.

>> Right., And, so, the, theory, of, knowledge you're positing is that um it's like a sequence and if you miss one part of the early in the chain, it's the the other

parts of the chain aren't going to make sense because they build off of that right? And so this is why the assumption

right? And so this is why the assumption is this works not just to speed up the kids who are doing really well in school who are, you know, bored and like I I spoke English like this when I was six.

I had to go through seven years of English lats in China. You know, you're just bored through the whole time. But

this is also why it's supposed to help the left tail and bring that up as well because it's about fixing those holes right? And so, so, so it's one part of

right? And so, so, so it's one part of your system is meeting the kid and deploying the exact thing that is able to challenge them, right?

>> But, there's, also, something, else, which, is creating dynamic content that fits their interest and and joining the knowledge and the interest graph. So, tell us about that. Yeah.

about that. Yeah.

>> Yeah., So, that's, the, other, thing, that, is so exciting is that uh what artificial intelligence allows us to do besides the ability to precisely measure and then

provide lessons that meet the academic knowledge level that a student has. So

basically take that knowledge graph but we can now overlap that with their interest graph. So, that little

interest graph. So, that little seven-year-old boy who hates to read but his favorite, you know, movies are the Avenger movies, and his best friends are the kids on his soccer team, and he

loves his grandparents on his mom's side. Suddenly, we can create a reading

side. Suddenly, we can create a reading story that's delivered at the Lexile level, the reading level that he needs where he and his soccer buddies are the main characters in a save the world

Avengers style movie where they start off by, you know, eating milk and cookies at the grandparents house before they go onto that adventure and suddenly you've got a kid who's interested in reading because we've connected with

that. And uh that's the thing that's

that. And uh that's the thing that's beautiful about generative AI is that we can really tailor and customize uh learning for students. based on those interests. And that's just the tip of

interests. And that's just the tip of the iceberg. And you know, we have

the iceberg. And you know, we have students who are trying to learn math and uh maybe that girl who loves fashion design uh needs to connect math lessons

with her interest in fashion or the kid who loves baseball statistics and we can incorporate math into that. Uh my own daughter when she was taking AP art

history, she was able to uh basically create songs using AI uh that were in the style of Taylor Swift songs uh that helped her memorize the cannons and what she needed to know. And I will tell you

that was a very fun time in our house when I would hear my daughter singing about art throughout the ages in the same melody of a Taylor Swift song.

>> Right., Okay., So, we, talked, about, correct placement, right? Giving them the exact

placement, right? Giving them the exact kind of knowledge that they that they need to to to advance the next chain in the sequence. We talked about the

the sequence. We talked about the correct content, giving them the exact content that they would be most interested in.

>> There's, there, seems, to, be, a, third, leg that your system stands on, which is tracking, right? Because you're doing it

tracking, right? Because you're doing it in a fully digital environment, you're able to monitor everything and generate these incredible reports about like how much time is wasted and predict whether

they're distracted. So, so tell us about

they're distracted. So, so tell us about the entire tracking system you have.

>> Well,, this, system, knows, exactly, what, a student is learning and how quickly they're learning. uh and it's something

they're learning. uh and it's something that the child can see, their teachers can see and their parents can see literally on a daily basis. So uh for

example, we can uh basically predict how long a lesson should take for a student and then if that student is taking longer than we we predict they would

take. Uh why uh is it because uh the

take. Uh why uh is it because uh the material is too hard and if so, how do we slow that down? If the material is too easy, what's the level of accuracy they have? we're finally able to

they have? we're finally able to implement all of those learning principles that we've known for so long uh around how to do that. So like the the zone of proximal development, right?

Understanding that if a kid is being challenged too much where their brain starts to kind of shortcircuit, that's not going to be a helpful place for them to be versus if they're uh already know

everything and it's too easy for them.

That's not helpful. What we've shown is somewhere in that 85% area where a kid is learning at just the right pace where they're challenged but they're not overloaded. Right? The other

thing that we can see and and what's so exciting when we think about how learning science can go to that next level is we can take things like cognitive load theory and we can actually be able to measure and analyze

how, a, student, does., So,, for example, Jonathan, if it only takes you five reps of a concept to understand that concept then our personalized learning system can deliver those five reps to you. If

it takes me 15, then I'm going to need a lot more than five. I need that 15. And

to be able to look at every single child and be able to understand how are we how are we basically uh maximizing uh what we call their cognitive load and their

working memory slots. uh we can make sure that we are feeding kids academic knowledge at the pace that allows their brain to uh learn this knowledge and

then transfer it to long-term memory. Um

on top of that, the other thing that's really cool about uh this AI tutor and I will say better than a human tutor is that we can also implement things like

uh you know regular quizzing, right? To

be able to understand does a child understand this? And then we can also do

understand this? And then we can also do space repetition where uh we can revisit topics from a day, a week, a month before on a regular basis. Unlike, you

know, standard school where I may or may not have crammed a lot when I was, you know, a kid. Instead, we're really making sure kids are learning the mastery before they move forward and

that they're regularly being uh quizzed and reminded of this so that they will uh hold on to this knowledge for a long time, >> right?, Um,, and, just, so, our, audience

>> right?, Um,, and, just, so, our, audience doesn't get the wrong view, this is not a Optimus robot sitting in front of a kid, nor is it a chat interface that they interact with. So these are

pre-planned modules that have flexibility in the way that you described. That's part of a holistic

described. That's part of a holistic sort of sort of system. So there's a lot of guard rails and stuff, right?

>> There, is., And, actually,, that's, a, great point you bring up because uh when people think about AI and education they think of chat GBT creating, you know, lessons for kids and teaching fifth grade math. uh and and we

absolutely are not doing that. First of

all, the curriculum that we're using in our personalized learning platforms is US common core curriculum in K through8.

It's advanced placement curriculum in high school. So, it's the same material

high school. So, it's the same material that students in a traditional classroom are learning. It's not being made up. Uh

are learning. It's not being made up. Uh

but the other thing that we have realized and I think so many people when they think about AI and education they get confused on they think of a a GPT like a chat GPT interface a chatbot

coming in. Here's what we've found. Uh

coming in. Here's what we've found. Uh

when kids are given a chatbot they usually will use it to cheat right and you'd love to have this thought that you know a student is talking with a chatbot and they're having this incredible

socratic debate and discussion and they're saying explain to me more how virtue this concept works and how this is happening. Uh but what they're really

is happening. Uh but what they're really doing is they're copy paste please provide the answer let me do that and so that's actually one fundamental part of the system we do not have we do not have

a chatbot interface uh within our AI tutor when we think about an AI tutor we're really thinking about that underlying platform that is measuring monitoring and understanding you know a child's learning journey

>> it's, about, the, analysis, it's, the analysis rather than yeah >> it's, the, analysis, of, the, system, and, it's uh so if you talk to one of our students you and you say, "Tell us about your AI tutor." They're not going to tell you

tutor." They're not going to tell you about some cute name of a little chatbot that pops up and and teaches them about things. They're going to talk about the

things. They're going to talk about the adaptive apps that they're using.

They're going to talk about how when it's time for them to do math, they're taken directly to the lesson that they need to be doing uh at the right level.

They're, going to, be, talking, about, how they're challenged and engaged. Uh but

it's not too too hard and it's not so easy. Right.

easy. Right.

>> Right., I, see., Um,, so, you, talked, about how you're basically still trying to sprint through the Common Core curriculum, standardized testing. Part

of that is practical, right? If you want to go to a college, you just you just need to do this stuff. Um, another

example is people won't believe your results, right? If you don't use

results, right? If you don't use standardized testing, you're okay, fine and we're learning 10x faster. That's

that's crazy. But you can actually now show it.

>> Um,, let's, say, that, those, constraints weren't there.

>> What, do, you, think, about, the, the, Common Core curriculum itself? like if those constraints weren't there, would you actually want to feed other kind of facts into a child's brain?

>> So,, I, actually, think, that, you, just, have to put as much academic knowledge into your brain as possible. And if we really want to raise great critical thinkers it is imperative that there is knowledge

in the brain upon which to draw from right? And so, uh I I do think it's

right? And so, uh I I do think it's really important to just make sure we have basic academic knowledge, right? We

should make sure that uh students are fluent in things like what's 7* 8 you know what's what's 10,000 time you know a th00and when kids have that basic

information it enables them to actually exponentially learn right and think about the power of an analogy right if I am explaining something to you Jonathan that you're struggling with and then I can compare it to something that you

already know it makes things so much more powerful and that's what we're really doing so I kind of look at it from almost a very um utilitarian perspective which is it makes your brain

a more interesting place to hang out right? When you're able to have more

right? When you're able to have more complex thoughts, when you're able to uh pull up information, uh and then what it also allows us to do is if we can have that base academic knowledge, it allows

us to then take that information and go incorporate that into something that we're doing that's interesting, which is a whole other part of what our school focuses on >> which, we'll, talk, about., Yeah., So, now, on

one hand it is about just being able to shove knowledge into your brain more securely 10x faster right 2x learning at

1/5 the time um but now I want to pull this back into the Prussian model about why education is so important it because it's not just about sticking facts into

the brain it's about forming a kind of character or self view. And the most incredible thing that I've uh encountered when I've talked to alpha

students is whenever they approach a problem, it's never I'm not a math guy you know, Jonathan, I'm not a math guy or or like I'm just not dumb. It's just

I haven't put the work into it. which is

an incredible thing for kids to think about because I I remember myself like you know I I started chi Chinese like a year later than my class and for you know the seven first seven grades in

China I always thought well I'm just not a humanities person >> until, I, I, I, went, to, you, know, until, I actually worked on my essays and I'm like no this is the exact same as math which I'm which is what I'm good at but

that so I guess what I'm trying to say is like being able to do so well in these standardized tests and master these materials The even greater benefit than making your mind a more interesting place to live, in, is, that, you, you, have a

fundamental different view of yourself.

>> A, completely, different, view., And, here's here's what we think about. Uh you know in this timebased traditional system, if a child struggles and isn't understanding something, it goes

straight into who they view themselves at their core identity. I am I'm dumb >> or, I'm, not, a, math, person, or, I'm, just, not good at writing. uh and what we we very

much believe all kids right can be capable and successful at core academics uh as long as they're given that pace and that level of learning. And so we

absolutely teach our students that if you put in the time, you put in the effort, you can get the results. And

what that does is it creates confidence that's based on competence and it allows kids to then then realize hey, I can absolutely do anything if I

put that time in. And you know, if you compare to what's often the philosophy of of this age, it's this self-love self-confidence thing that just says

Jonathan, you are a great person. You

are sharp. in that. And the problem with that is, you know, someone will look at that and go, "Well, my parents are telling me I'm so smart, but I don't feel smart. I feel challenged and I feel

feel smart. I feel challenged and I feel like I don't understand what's going on >> and, my, grades, are >> It, doesn't, match, what, you're, telling me." And you know what? People are

me." And you know what? People are

really able to understand reality right? If you have a reality quotient

right? If you have a reality quotient that's like, "No, none of what you're saying is making sense." Um, and what we can do is the exact opposite. And you

know, for example, at our school, you know, science, eighth grade science is actually pretty easy to be 99th percentile in, right? And uh so it's often what we will call a confidence

anchor, we'll have students focus on you know, getting to the 99th percentile in science and they get there and they think, "Wow, I never thought I could be this good at science." And then when they're challenged in math or they're

challenged in English and they can say "Hey, if I got there in science, I bet I can do it here." And uh what we're doing with with these young people is we're helping them develop that sense of

confidence based on competence on hard work putting the time in. It creates a culture that's really quite beautiful.

It also creates a culture where kids are respectful of each other. Uh they

respect the time and work that people put in. They respect the talents that

put in. They respect the talents that that each of them brings to the table.

uh and they also respect that idea of working as a team uh as well as individual contributing.

>> Yeah,, I, think, this, is, a, good, balance, um between the kind of East Asian education cuz I went to the local school in China um which is just it doesn't really emphasize like making you a confident

self-view at all. It's just about let's get the work done, man. Like let's let's hunker down 12 hours a day. Let's do

let's just do your math problems. and the, kind, of, this, is a, caricature, the California model right you're amazing like you've done nothing you know which

I absolutely hate um but what's so interesting about what you're suggesting and this is hegelian point that for your self view to change in a healthy way

that self- view needs to be actually grounded in something >> grounded, in, reality >> and, so, the, real, benefit, of, this, system of being able to show kids they can ace

these standardized tests is to give them a grounding upon which they can actually build a good self view. Right.

>> Yeah., And, I, think, that, we,, you, know, people will hear this and think, oh it's all just about standardized tests right? Sierra's tests are that

right? Sierra's tests are that third-party objective measure that can show how students are doing, but students are also getting that on a daily basis as they're actively engaged going through lessons and they're seeing

you got that one right, you got this right, you're understanding this explanation, and they're able to see like, I can put this time in and in a couple hours a day, I can get more done than, you know, kids sitting in school

for six >> right?, Um,, and, I, think, many, successful

>> right?, Um,, and, I, think, many, successful people have all learned that lesson by accident um, when they were children that that the world is malleable if they just put in the work. So for me, you

know, I was quite clever growing up. I

never really paid attention to to anything. Um, and I was naturally good

anything. Um, and I was naturally good at obviously English cuz I was I was raised here also. Um, and and also math.

M >> um, until, I, started, playing, basketball when I was in seventh grade and I realized that like each unit time I put in just practicing boring dribbling moves

>> directly, like, the, next, day, started showing up and on and how much I increase in games. And so what's really exciting is you guys have systematized these kinds of learnings so that it's

it's no longer accidental. You don't

have to luck into it like like I did.

Right.

>> Yeah., Well,, and, if, it's, the, kind, of thing where, you know, if I said to you Jonathan, uh, I'm going to give you $10 million if you win Wimbledon. You'd look

at me and you'd be like, I don't care if it's $10 billion. I don't know how to win Wimbledon. I can't just go win

win Wimbledon. I can't just go win Wimbledon. But if I said, Jonathan, I'm

Wimbledon. But if I said, Jonathan, I'm going to give you $10 million if you go out and you practice four hours a day for the next three years. You'd be like I know how to do that. And what we're doing is we're really creating uh

self-driven learners who have a sense of agency. they take ownership over their

agency. they take ownership over their learning experience and they they understand that they can learn to learn and when they sit down and get that right level of material they're able to go and if you contrast that again with

kind of a traditional school system there's generally two things that that enable students to do well in a traditional school system one is IQ base how smart are you and you just mentioned

yourself you found school pretty easy right you could kind of coast through the other part is really based on kind of the level of conscientiousness grinder. How can you grind?

grinder. How can you grind?

>> Well,, are, can, you, grind?, Are, you, willing to play the game like I was? And so in a traditional system, when a student's not doing well, it's usually considered the student's fault. It's either, hey

student's fault. It's either, hey they're not the sharpest kid, they're not great at math, or they're lazy they're disengaged, they're not doing something. Uh we take the opposite

something. Uh we take the opposite approach. We believe that if a child is

approach. We believe that if a child is not thriving in our system, uh it's our fault, it's the school's fault. And

there's two reasons for that. Number

one, they're either not getting that right level and pace of learning that is right for them or we haven't motivated the child. And that's this whole other

the child. And that's this whole other section that uh that we spend our time on. In fact, it's um it's the

on. In fact, it's um it's the transformed role that we've given our teachers in our model.

>> Right?, And, we'll, talk, about, motivation which is actually 90% of the solution.

Right? All this that we've talked is just 10% of the solution. Um but I just want to highlight an interesting philosophical question that you guys have answered indirectly which is that

in Plato there's a there's a question of whether virtue can be taught.

>> And, so, uh, one, of, the, arguments, is, that well look all the virtuous statement their sons are not virtuous. So clearly

it can't be taught otherwise they would have they would have taught them. But I

was looking through one of your onboarding slides that that you share with your your guides, your teachers and your new employees >> and, you, literally, list, out, like, this, is

how you make a person high agency. This

is how you make a kid uh uh uh moderate or or courageous. And so these are like solved problems in your in your mind like with the right technocratic kind of tools, these are solved problems. I

absolutely believe when you provide an environment where there's a sense of high standards and you also are providing high levels of support and

mentorship uh you can teach kids anything and you can teach them how to become experts. You can teach them how

become experts. You can teach them how to take ownership. You can teach them how to deal with failure. You can teach them how to work hard. You can teach grit. Uh there's so many of those

grit. Uh there's so many of those characteristics and virtues uh that you can absolutely do, especially when you're there saying, "Hey, we know you're capable of this." And that's

probably one of my favorite uh things about the time that I've spent uh in this school world is seeing a kid who comes to us with a horrible self-view

and watch them over a shockingly short amount of time start to change that self-view of who they are and then exhibit the actions and the behaviors

and the work that leads to these results that helps them understand like I am capable.

uh I can work hard and I can do great things.

>> What, you, just, suggested, um, could, be interpreted as a tabula rasa view of human nature that kids are like blank states you can write kind of anything on them that it's all nurture it's not

nature is is that accurate or or are there sort of predetermined traits or does IQ still come out in your system?

Uh so I I will say you know when we talk about some of the learning principles and and the theories that we're able to implement uh things like you know uh cognitive load theory and how many

working slots a child's brain has that is based on IQ right and so >> how, many, reps, you, need, to, perform >> how, many, reps, you, need, that, is, based, on IQ but that does not mean that we say sorry if you don't have as high of IQ

you're not going to do as well it just means you may go a little slower through the lessons but eventually you're going to get there and that's the beauty of a masterybased system, right?

>> Right., But, but, surely, that's, not, true for like quantum mechanics or something right? At a certain like for the common

right? At a certain like for the common core, that's true. But

>> so, I, will, say, that,, you, know,, not, every student is going to go be an astrophysics major at MIT, but they can absolutely crush eighth grade science right? They can be wellarmed so that

right? They can be wellarmed so that they can take that knowledge and go out in the world and then find the things that they're good at, that they enjoy doing, and that the world needs. And

again, that can be done at so many different levels >> right?, What's, really, interesting, is, that

>> right?, What's, really, interesting, is, that you guys have seemed to take the opposite approach from most people's immediate reactions to AI, which is not

only is knowing facts no longer relevant, um analysis itself, if AI can do it, why bother teach our students to do it?

>> Yeah.

>> How, do, you, think, about, bring, children, up um for the AI age?

>> Yeah,, I, get, this, question, all, the, time from moms who are like, okay, what am I what's the purpose of school? What am I supposed to be teaching my kid? Does it

matter when we have, you know everything we could want to know, you know, at the tip of our hands? And I

always like to give this example. If I

were to put in a chat GPT, uh, you know design the best K through2 school it would come back and it would be like okay, well, you know, a great K through2

school has uh very well-trained teachers. It has, you know, uh, subject

teachers. It has, you know, uh, subject matter experts. It has a low teacher

matter experts. It has a low teacher student ratio. It gives kids time to

student ratio. It gives kids time to play outside and you know things like that. And then if I said actually design

that. And then if I said actually design a school where teachers aren't doing academic teaching but AI is suddenly the GPT is like oh I didn't even know that

was a thing. Okay. Well if we're doing that then it goes another way. And

that's what I kind of think is like the the gray part of the frontier that I think is where humans are going to want to live in this new world that we're in.

It's like the black and white that AI knows is great. And it's important to understand that because as a person, if we can take that information and then

add what I kind of call the new skills of of this new world that we need. It's

no longer about the three Rs of reading and writing and arithmetic. It's the

four Cs. And I call that critical thinking communication creativity and collaboration. And that's where I think

collaboration. And that's where I think it's going to be so much fun to see what people are able to do when they're living in that gray frontier of like pushing what's possible. It's a tool for

expanding and growing beyond and making some of the more wrote tasks of our life easier.

>> Right., My, big, critique, after, spending this week um with alpha especially this this app system because again it's not a chatbot. It's not fully dynamic. It is

chatbot. It's not fully dynamic. It is

constrained. It's giving you app-based learning. it's uh structured is that

learning. it's uh structured is that this kind of learning is great for things that are number one linear right? That kind of chain concept. You

right? That kind of chain concept. You

need to know A before you need to know B.

>> It's, great, for, things, that, are, easily tested and it's great for things that are about knowing like knowing facts.

Um, and I would say that that describes most of STEM and the introduction of humanities reading writing >> but, I, feel, like, when, you, go, into, like

higher level humanities content >> um,, it's, not, about, any, of, those, three things. It's not linear, right? There's

things. It's not linear, right? There's

no good entry point for the for the great books and there's no bad entry point. It's all circular and you can

point. It's all circular and you can read them over and over again because they're all talking to each other.

>> Um,, you, can't, really, easily, test, it, right? just quizzing someone what

right? just quizzing someone what happens in Plato symposium doesn't really give you a good idea of whether they really get it or not.

>> Yeah.

>> And, also, it's, not, really, about, knowing but it's about changing your character in some different way. So how are you guys thinking about integrating um humanities education?

>> Well,, so, here's, my, question., When, do, you think that type of humanities education uh really plays in the traditional system? What grade?

system? What grade?

>> Right., Uh, like, university,, bro.

>> University., Exactly., And, so, that's, what I would actually say too is that I really believe K through 12 is about again arming your brain with the knowledge that you need in order to then go to that next level. So you know when

I think about university right I could absolutely see that 100level lecture-based classes >> all, go, away, replaced, by, AI, and, they've already shown there's been studies that

have shown that you know Harvard just did a study in late 24 that showed that students in a physics class had deeper levels of engagement and performed better with an AI tutor than with a

Harvard professor. Now the other big

Harvard professor. Now the other big thing that they they got to do was they spent more time in group discussions.

And so if you think about university you get your 100 level classes out of the way, get kids all set up so that they've got the same amount of information, their mastery base, and then what you turn that into is

conversations where you're doing small group discussions where the professors aren't having to do stuff that they're like, I, you know, I've taught this a million times. You could read this in my

million times. You could read this in my book, right? And instead, they're

book, right? And instead, they're engaging in that next thing. And it's

just like the gray zone, the frontier of AI. That's where our kids could be doing

AI. That's where our kids could be doing PhD level discussions. They could be doing those things in high school.

>> Right., Right., And, now, that, you, say, it, um even Plato himself, I believe recommends no philosophy before 30. And

and that's not just because it can go wrong, but also he he recommends math essentially like like to put it very simply, he recommends math >> as, a, prerequisite, training, for philosophy because of the abstract

nature of it, because of how rigorous it is. And I actually do think since I was

is. And I actually do think since I was on a humanities get a 12, I am a better philosopher now because I focused on those fundamentals. So, so this is the

those fundamentals. So, so this is the and maybe the other thing >> and, that's, actually, Jonathan,, think about it. You've probably unfortunately

about it. You've probably unfortunately we've probably all sat in on conversations and maybe been uh you know accidental contributors to people talking about things that they don't actually know anything about, right?

Just randomly spewing something. And

that's why again to be a great critical thinker and to be able to uh provide valuable insights, you've got to be drawing upon knowledge. And um what we

found is that it's just not hard to deliver this rigorous academic experience where kids are crushing it.

Our classes are, you know, top one and 2% in the country and they're doing it in a couple hours a day which then of course, opens, up, the, rest, of the, day, for all the really cool stuff.

>> Yeah., And, and, that's, what, I, love, about the the approach after spending a week in the schools, which is you recognize that they're vegetables and you eat them as fast as humanly possible, right? So

so it's not this like the East Asian system, drawn, out., We're, going to, drill your entire life, okay? Basically

before you're 18. It's just like drilling these things like Olympian math problems. Um, but it's also not the happy golucky well like this is and what was really interesting I just want to emphasize this is this which is

>> if, you, don't, like, the, alpha, approach, to everything else I believe you guys are offering just the 2hour learning module and then you can attach it to other kinds of schooling right so if I want to

start a great book school I can have my students go through K to2 2 hours a day and I can do seminars from the first grade if I wanted to right and that's the possibility that you open up >> yes, you, And, except, there's, one, thing, I'm

going to say and I'm so glad you got into this cuz here's the fun fundamental premise that I have always believed since the very first day when we started with a school that was run in a house

with 16 kids. We believe kids need to love school >> right?

>> Kids, need, to, love, school., And, what, I didn't say was kids need to love learning, right? Because you did mention

learning, right? Because you did mention sometimes it is like eating your vegetables. Like that two hours of core

vegetables. Like that two hours of core academic time that we're doing, it's challenging now. It's not too hard. It's

challenging now. It's not too hard. It's

not so easy that you're bored stiff, but it's challenging. And not all kids are

it's challenging. And not all kids are like, "Oh my gosh, this is my favorite part of the day." But what they've what we've done is we've created this this

entire school day, right, from 8:30 to 3:30 where kids love the time they're there. And what we find is if you've got

there. And what we find is if you've got a kid who loves school, then everything else can be unlocked. We can deliver that academic experience. We can do all of those things. And so your point about saying, "Okay, you could do this

two-hour learning personalized platform and then we could do great books all afternoon, right?" If the kids

afternoon, right?" If the kids >> love, that, and, want, to, do, great, books, >> this, is, my, East, Asian, training, show, for school.

>> Well,, and, that's, the, other, thing, is we've had and I've had parents come to me and they're like, "Oh my goodness."

So then yes, we could do classical music training in the afternoon.

If the kids love classical music and one of the, things, that, we've, done, is,, you know, this opens up the whole other part which you mentioned 10% of creating a great learner is getting the right level and pace of academics. That's everything

we talked about so far.

>> That's, 10%.

>> 90%, is, you, have, to, have, a, motivated student. If a kid's not motivated

student. If a kid's not motivated you're up the creek, right? You're up

the creek. And so that's that's the secret sauce is motivation.

>> Okay,, perfect., So, So, that's, a, perfect transition point. You talked about the

transition point. You talked about the 10% AI, software, personalized learning mastery based learning.

>> Let's, talk, about, the, rest, of, of, alpha, the 90%, how do you go about motivating kids to love school? And

>> I, was, so, shocked, to, learn, that, the, kids voted for the school to remain open. So

you asked them, do you want to go to on vacation or or or to stay in school?

>> And, they, voted, to, keep, the, school, open.

>> Yeah., So, we, we, we, really, take, this seriously. We have three commitments and

seriously. We have three commitments and the first commitment is kids will love school and every six weeks we surveyed the students do you love school yes or no? Uh I think the last time we surveyed

no? Uh I think the last time we surveyed uh you know a few weeks ago we were at like 95% love school but we take it further because the question we're always asking is like how high is high

and uh so we'll say would you rather go to school or go on vacation now did you ever want to go to school over vacation ever Jonathan I can tell you for a >> Oh, I, didn't, have, vacation., I, didn't, have vacation. That's a sad answer.

vacation. That's a sad answer.

>> You, didn't, have, vacation., Okay., Well,, I can tell you for 100% certainty there was never ever ever a moment that I was like, "Oh, I'd much rather go to school than go on vacation." In fact, Sundays were always a very sad day for me cuz I

realized like Monday comes next and I have to go to school.

>> Oh,, that, happened, to, me.

>> It, was, actually,, you, know, what, was, crazy about that is um it was only once I got in the working world that I realized like Sunday's actually a great day cuz I liked what I was going to do whereas I never liked school. Um, and so we asked

that, but in general, you know, we get somewhere around 50% of our of our students say they would rather go to school than go on vacation. And where

that really came clear was uh this spring, our high school students uh twothirds of them voted to keep the high school open for the summer. And so we

are we're going to be there this summer.

And we'll talk about kind of why that is and what what's interesting. But bottom

line is you got to have motivation uh in that. And so the way that Alpha has

that. And so the way that Alpha has answered that challenge is uh three-fold. First of all, we've given

three-fold. First of all, we've given kids their most valuable resource, which is time to go and focus on the things they love. And so, you know, if you said

they love. And so, you know, if you said to a kid, hey, you got to learn this material and uh you know, you've got between the hours of 9 and 3 to do it.

>> They, might, just, be, like,, "Okay,, yeah,, I guess I'll I'll do a little of this.

I'll do a little whatever. I'll kind of take it take meander my way through the material. But if you say, "Okay, you've

material. But if you say, "Okay, you've got this material to do and you can do it in 2 hours and then from 11 to 3 you can go do these really really fun

projectbased interactive team engaged workshops where you're getting to do things you love." Suddenly the kids are like, "Uh, great. I'm happy to do that."

So we give them time back to go do things that they love. Um the second aspect of that motivation is um we have completely transformed the role of the teacher in the classroom so that instead

of in the timebased system where they're focusing on delivering lessons and creating lesson plans and grading papers and homework, our teachers are not doing any of that stuff. They're letting the

personalized learning tutor do that.

What they're focused on is motivational and emotional support. So their whole job every single day they get up and they think how can I help that kid uh get excited about what they're doing and

that could be everything from understanding hey this kid loves words of affirmation this particular kid is obsessed with matchbox cars this kid loves Taylor Swift and so I got to I got

to connect with them on that. Whatever

that is that's what our teachers job is doing. So to be clear, we are not

doing. So to be clear, we are not replacing teachers. We are transforming

replacing teachers. We are transforming the role of teachers to be able to do what only humans are really great at which is a motivational and emotional connection.

>> Right., But, when, it, comes, to, academics, no teachers all replaced by AI, right?

>> Yes,, that, is, true., You're, not, going, to walk into one of our schools and see a teacher uh teaching a kid how to carry the one, you know, or do long division.

What you are going to see is our teachers, we call them guides. uh our

teachers are going to be working with students to uh help them figure out have they looked at all the resources available to them. Are they learning how to learn? So if a student is having a

to learn? So if a student is having a hard time in an academic lesson, uh the the teacher might be able to say, you know, have you have you read the explanation? Have you uh looked at all

explanation? Have you uh looked at all of your resources that you have? Uh and

or or hey, I know this feels challenging. remember when you had that

challenging. remember when you had that really hard lesson last week and you were able to get that done, you know and and help them incorporate like growth mindset techniques. So, we give kids time back to go do the things we

love. We surround them with incredible

love. We surround them with incredible adults who are there to help uplift them and support them and and hold them to these high standards while saying, "Hey I'm with you and I can help you do

this." Right? We've done that. And then

this." Right? We've done that. And then

we give them the most awesome exciting things to do in the afternoon. And so

what do you do? That's and that's the big question that now this new world of artificial intelligence where kids can crush their academics in a couple hours a day. It opens up this new question of

a day. It opens up this new question of okay, what do you want kids to learn when they have so much more time in their day? And the answer that we've

their day? And the answer that we've come up, we want life skills. We want

kids to learn leadership and teamwork.

We want them to learn about grit and how to deal with failure. We want them to learn about resilience and adaptability and how to receive feedback. And then

you know, public speaking and storytelling. uh financial literacy

storytelling. uh financial literacy entrepreneurship, all these very cool exciting things. So I'll give you an

exciting things. So I'll give you an example of something that uh we just did a workshop this session and I was there yesterday. So we did a sailing workshop

yesterday. So we did a sailing workshop and in this sailing workshop over a period of six weeks our students were learning about teamwork. They were

learning the skill of how to deal with adversity and become adaptable. So uh

they had spent six weeks learning all about sailing. the day of what we call

about sailing. the day of what we call the test to pass comes and here's what they had to do. Each team was given their sailing boat and the first thing they had to figure out was there was

something wrong with every single boat.

And so the team had to figure out what what was wrong. Oh, this boat's missing its rudder. This boat is missing the the

its rudder. This boat is missing the the pin that you need for whatever. They had

to understand their craft and be able to say, "Oh, there's something wrong." Then

these kids were finally able to launch and they went out into the lake and they had to go and do an obstacle kind of scavenger hunt course, put together a series of clues and mysteries that was

kind of based on a pirate theme. Uh come

back, solve to find a hidden treasure.

Uh now it was a little bit harder than that because there were pirates out on this lake. I didn't know if you I don't

this lake. I didn't know if you I don't think you knew that pirates still exist right here in Austin, Texas. They were

in the form of parents on a pontoon boats and the parents had been armed with very powerful water guns. And so if a sailboat was hit by a water gun, they

had to do a 360° turn before they were allowed to continue on their path. Um

and first of all, it was so much fun. It

was the coolest thing. And these kids learned so, so much. Now, guess what those kids uh left to go do today? They

are now going to sail from the Florida Keys to the Bahamas, take the skills that they learn in this workshop, and they're going to put them out on the open water. Isn't that incredible?

open water. Isn't that incredible?

>> Wow.

>> I, tell, you,, Jonathan,, there's, never, been a more exciting time to be a 5-year-old in this world where you can crush your academics and you can spend your afternoons doing these crazy awesome life skills challenges.

>> Yeah., Here's, my, concern., This, all, sounds very fun. And the philosophy here

very fun. And the philosophy here right, is that we're going to make your vegetables as yummy as possible, right? Like we're going to

possible, right? Like we're going to make the life lessons and the skills and the knowledge you need to shove into your brain as fun as humanly possible.

My education was the exact opposite. My

schedule looked like from like grade 2 8 to to 6:00 p.m. at school, no easy classes, no art class, just humanities math physics.

>> Yeah.

>> And, then, after, school, math, camp.

>> Math, camp., I, heard, after, school, math camp and and I was I I was let off easy.

Okay. My parents only sent me to like two or three math camps. Like some of these Chinese kids like all like like six math camps and so that like the weekends were like homework.

>> Yeah.

>> And, part, of, it, is, soul, crushing, in, the way that ficta described it to be. But

it gave you it gave me certainly a kind of iron will just to be able to sit down, plop my ass in a chair and just grind things out for an entire day and

not get up if I wanted to.

might kids educated in this fun sailing pirate ship alpha way not have that kind of muscle in them?

>> Uh,, one, of, the, things, that, we, tell parents is that um their kids are going to go through our school experience and they're going to fail. They're going to cry, which by the way, not a lot of

parents want a school to say, to be clear, your child will cry, right? They

will cry, but they're going to learn from that and they're going to get up.

So, um, there's no question this experience is hard. It is hard to be 99th percentile in your academics right? You can't just fall out of bed

right? You can't just fall out of bed and do that, right? You know, one of the things that our students have to do, uh we we think entrepreneurship is a really really great way to teach life skills

financial literacy being one of them storytelling being another, uh, being able to to plan things. And when you're telling, you know, a second grader that they and their classmates need to figure

out how to make $5,000 in profit from a business, that's hard, right? right?

They don't know how how to figure that out, but they have a goal and they get clear on like this is the goal I want to do. And I think that's the other thing

do. And I think that's the other thing that that we really want kids to understand and and I think this would be a great great thing for humans to get is how to set hard ambitious goals and then

how to build the process and the plan that allows you to achieve those goals even when you're not sure how you're going to do it.

>> So,, so, let's, actually, dive, in, to, the motivations that you kind of the levers that you can pull in a in a child's brain, right? And and again this is what

brain, right? And and again this is what I find so interesting about your entire approach at alpha school is that this is very much a technocratic science in the way you treated learning you also think about motivation very scientific way. So

>> the, first, question, I, have, is, when, I, look at people not just people who are successful academically but especially people in business or entrepreneurship often it's very dark motivations.

>> Okay, I, I, I, was, at, a, a, dinner, with, some top VCs. I was hosting a seminar

top VCs. I was hosting a seminar actually and they basically agreed that of their best entrepreneurs only three types of people. Autism.

>> Okay.

>> Megalamania, revenge.

>> Oo, wow.

>> And, you, know, that, might, be, an exaggeration but but there's some truth to that I think where often times the best parts of society are built by the worst parts of man. A desire to uh

conquer or a desire to to impress or or lust.

How do you think about those dark drives? Do you try to squash those or do

drives? Do you try to squash those or do you try to channel them productively?

How do you think that?

>> You, know what?, I, I, actually, I, can, relate because I think about how, you know take the most altruistic role in life which is being a parent, like being a mom. And uh I love my kids, you know

mom. And uh I love my kids, you know more than anything. They're they're

amazing. But I realize how often my ego my vanity plays into that relationship.

Even like, you know, you were, you actually saw the other day my daughter gave a presentation to a a venture capital firm and I was beaming with pride and yet I know there's a part of me that's beaming with pride because it

makes me look good, right? And so you're right, like human nature is absolutely full of self-centeredness, right? And um

that said, let's figure out how to channel this in the best way we can and let's figure out how to motivate. So at

our schools, uh we are fanatically focused on motivating kids and we're willing to do whatever. Um you know, we wish that every kid were intrinsically motivated, that every human was

intrinsically motivated, but unfortunately that's not the case. It's

a very small percentage of people that are, you know, just wake up every day with fire in their belly, ready to go.

And what we want to do is we want to turn on that intrinsic motivation and we use exttrinsic motivation measures to do that. So for example, one of the things

that. So for example, one of the things we do, we do it starting in prek. We pay

kids. What do you think of that? We pay

them cold hard cash, baby. That's the

way to do it. Uh so we have a school currency and it's like a 1:4 uh ratio to the US dollar and uh we pay kids for hitting their academic goals each day.

For example, we had a kindergarten student who really wanted this squishy.

It was this great squishy, and she'd kind of been struggling to get her goals done every day, but the guy knew she wanted this squishy. And the squishy actually was going to take quite a bit of of of alpha currency in order to

earn. That kid, though, would walk in

earn. That kid, though, would walk in every day. She'd look at that squishy

every day. She'd look at that squishy and she'd say, "Okay, the only thing stopping me from getting that squishy is the alphas that I can earn by doing my math and my reading." Right? And so, she

was able to do that. Uh the other thing we do um is we figure out things kids are excited about. So for example, we had a student who struggles a little bit with staying focused uh during his

courseal times. Sometimes he'd be

courseal times. Sometimes he'd be looking out the window uh but his guide knew him really well and his guide knew that he loves ornithology, obsessed with

birds. And so his guide sat him down and

birds. And so his guide sat him down and they said, "Let's create a motivation plan for you. let's build out this, you know, kind of poster board of all the

different types of birds that are in our local green belt. And then when you hit your goals each week, that unlocks 15 minutes of time for you and I, the guide

and the student, to go out into the green belt and bird watch, right? And

suddenly that kid is like, "All right, I want to hit that hit that goal because I want to unlock that time, that one-on-one time I get with my guide going and doing something that I love right?" And so we figure out those types

right?" And so we figure out those types of things. Uh we see that team

of things. Uh we see that team activities are something that are really popular. So we have something called

popular. So we have something called mobile squad where every session if kids have hit their academic goals, it unlocks, you know, the opportunity to go

to Six Flags Amusement Park or to go swimming at Barton Creek. What we find is that when we can hit those motivation levers and get kids to put in the work

then they start seeing the results which leads to confidence, which leads to them enjoying what they're doing more, which eventually turns on that intrinsic motivation.

>> So,, a, few, comments., Um,, the, first, is, to round out our conversation about the dark desires. I was talking with one of

dark desires. I was talking with one of your business partners and the most enlightening thing he told me was that maybe why society seems to need so many of those dark desires when you look at people who are successful they're

megalomaniacs is because of the schooling system >> that, that, that, you've, had, to, be, driven by these dark desires because this it was so shitty you know like no one liked the schooling system whereas and this

goes back to the Prussia point that we began with this is how important it is if we design a schooling system where good drives like fun and and the love of subject naturally propel you to where

you need to be maybe will produce more adults who are not just extremely powerful but they're their powers from a a much more healthy sort of drive. So

that that's the first comment. The

second comment is I I totally agree with this extrinsic motivation is usually necessary point like I wouldn't have been able to be intrinsically interested

in philosophy now if I wasn't exttrinsically motivated to do all the prerequisites before.

>> Yeah., Um, and, there, are, only, I, don't, know a handful of kids who come out of the womb liking like math or all those fundamentals.

>> Yeah.

>> So, I, I, guess, my, question, is >> but, obviously, you, know, the, worry, is they're just going to get stuck to the to the extrinsic stuff right. So so what is the algorithm? What is the system to

turn that external to and to make sure that it gets turned internal? Yeah.

>> So, you, know, we, use, a, lot, of, different extrinsic motivation measures to get kids to put in the work to get the academic results. And here's one of the

academic results. And here's one of the things I believe. All kids love to learn. Now, they may not all love to

learn. Now, they may not all love to learn math or philosophy, but they love to learn something. And so, the key that we do is expose them to a lot of different things to see what it is that

they love. So, for example, every year

they love. So, for example, every year in our fifth and sixth grade classes, we do some sort of a teamwork-based entrepreneurial adventure. Uh last year

entrepreneurial adventure. Uh last year it was an Airbnb that the students managed for nine months. This year it's a food truck and there are a couple of

kids that have really really shown up in that workshop. They love business. They

that workshop. They love business. They

love being entrepreneurs. Now, one of those kids doesn't necessarily love his time doing core academics, but he has started to realize, okay, the better I

am at math, the better I am at managing my business that I have. And so we can find that passion and that interest that gets a kid excited about something. And

we want them to find something that drives them and puts that fire in their belly and gets them excited. And we

believe by exposing them to things that they're interested in, helping them find again what they're good at, what the world needs, and what they like to do.

Um, that's where you can find that motivation. And the other things kind of

motivation. And the other things kind of speaking to the dark underbelly, you know, we all go to work and get paid to do our jobs. So even the most intrinsically uh motivated people are

still connecting somehow with some extrinsic measures.

>> So, it, sounds, like, one, part, of, the, answer is as you just get better at something you will start to gain more of an intrinsic. And so the the exttrinsic is

intrinsic. And so the the exttrinsic is like a booster rocket that takes you to orbit and and that kind of internalization kind of naturally happens. And if it and if it doesn't

happens. And if it and if it doesn't happen, >> you've, squashed, the, school, day, to, such, a short time that the purpose of the rest of the day is to find the thing that does intrinsically motivate you. So So

that's the kind of two-prong approach right?

>> 100%., And, you, know,, it, is, so, fun, to, see a student who comes to us who, you know says, "I'm not good at something. I'm

I'm I'm dumb." And then given the support and the personalization, they start seeing competence and they realize, "Okay, I actually do understand this." And it's a lot more fun when I

this." And it's a lot more fun when I understand what I'm working on, right?

The self view point >> and, the, self, view, and, that, that, creates that confidence which leads to motivation. It it literally changes

motivation. It it literally changes their identity of who they see themselves and it's not based on empty affirmations, right? It does that and

affirmations, right? It does that and they do they they get that and they can they can take what they saw in this area and they can translate it to something else.

>> Okay., Um, I'm, going, to, read, you, one, of, my favorite passages of Rouso.

>> Okay., Right., Um

>> because, I, want, to, ask, you, how, you, guys think about this kind of motivation because we talked about like money and like your intrinsic hobbies and and not wanting to school as as an extrinsic.

Here are here is what I think to be the most powerful extrinsic motivation especially when they reach teenage years.

>> It, is, to, this, artor, to, be, talked, about social status to this frenzy to achieve distinction which almost always keeps us outside ourselves that we owe what is

best and what is worst among men. our

virtues and our vices, our sciences and our errors, our conquerors and our philosophers. That is to say, a

philosophers. That is to say, a multitude of bad things for a small number of good things. How do you guys at Alpha think about

leveraging especially the adolescent desire for social status and and and and uh redirecting that >> status, and, respect, that, is, an

evolutionary um trigger that has been put into humankind, right? And so when we look at

humankind, right? And so when we look at present day um we have really put kids in boxes, right? we have taken away all uh autonomy and really expectations of

them being capable. Uh and so young people crave this idea that they are earning respect, that they have status and that they're looking for. And so one

of the things we do is we give kids ownership of their environment. Uh so

for example, we have town halls. These

town halls start in second grade where kids are putting the rules in place for their community. And one of the things

their community. And one of the things we've found is that when kids are given ownership of their community, they call themselves and each other to a higher

standard. And you know, a great example

standard. And you know, a great example of this, uh, in our fifth and sixth grade, uh, class last year, uh, the students were coming up with the minimum number of units they needed to

accomplish each week academically. They

decided, >> yeah,, in, order, to, uh, basically, unlock, an an adventure trip that they were going to do at the end of the session and um >> surely, everyone, would, say, like, one, right?

>> Well,, so, that, was, the, thing., Our, guide came out of of this meeting that was on a Friday and said, "Okay, they have voted that if they get 16 units, you

know, per student in in any given week you know, then then that's enough." And

you know, I looked at this guy and I'm like, that's not enough. that, you know that's way too low. They can do a lot more than that. You know, we got to change that, right? Even I fell prey to that. Like, we got to do something

that. Like, we got to do something different. And, uh, you know, the God

different. And, uh, you know, the God said, "Hold on a second. Just just wait.

Give it a little bit of time." Well

they go back to school on Monday. And by

Tuesday afternoon, they they called an emergency town hall meeting, and they said "You know what? We're realizing 16 is too low because some of us are already on track to have completed 16 by

2 days into the 5-day school week right? We got to go up a little higher."

right? We got to go up a little higher."

So they voted it up to to 22 and uh and then the next Friday, five days, you know, have gone by. They decided to go up to 30. The the class voted to go to

30 units that they had to complete. Now

if if my academic team had been in charge, we would have put it at about 24. Within one week, that group

24. Within one week, that group naturally adjusted their units from way low at 16 to higher than adults would have put on them

>> because, of, their, concern, for, status, in the town hall or >> because, of, the, fact, that, they, had ownership and they called themselves and they, realized,, you, know what,, we, set, a goal that was too low. We can beat that

goal. We're capable of more. And that

goal. We're capable of more. And that

does come back to a sense of status and respect, right? It's it's the same

respect, right? It's it's the same >> as, an, individual., You're, you, own, this, right?

>> We, own, this., We, have, this., And, so,, uh, and, you, know what, else?, They're, they're getting the respect from the adults who say, "I trust you to figure out what is the right amount of of work that you should be putting in." Right?

>> So,, that, is, one, species, of, recognition, which is respect, dignity. Um, again

I'm I'm interested in the darker stuff.

>> Okay,, great., Looking, in, my, own, psyche, one of the I I treated academics in high school, this was probably like 90% of motivation as like like the coliseum.

>> Like, I, just, wanted, to, crush, the, other kids and I did.

>> Ah,, interesting.

>> And, I, remember, in, my, Chinese, middle school, every month we would have a standardized test, 400 kids. We would

all get in one like assembly room.

>> Mhm., And, all, of, our, raw, scores, on, the same test would be projected and ranked and each of us were called in order to go up on stage.

>> Yeah.

>> Either, to, be, honored, or, to, be, shamed.

>> And, so, so, how, is, and, that, is, an incredible powerful force in why people build companies. How how are you guys

build companies. How how are you guys thinking about using or not using that kind of energy?

>> So, we, actually, do, uh, use, public recognition as part of that. So, for

example, if you walk into any of our classroom spaces, you'll see on the walls every single kid and where they're at, what they've accomplished and what they still have to do. And we often see parents will come in and say, "Oh my

goodness, isn't this shaming?" You know what's going on here? And what we find is it's the opposite. It actually

motivates kids because, for example, we have something called a check chart which is a list of things that a kid needs to be able to do before they level up to the next grade. And those are can be things like knowing how to change a

tire or a accomplishing the grit triathlon or giving a public talk uh you know those types of things that they're they're going through and um you know

kids will look at this big you know poster board on the wall and they'll think how am I ever going to finish that but then they're going to see wait if Tommy did that maybe I can do it too and they see kids going through and then

pretty, soon, they're, like, you, know what let me work on this check let me work on doing this let me do that at our high schools um our students are only spending the morning doing academics so they have all afternoon to focus on

whatever that interest is that they have. And so, uh, a lot of our students

have. And so, uh, a lot of our students pursue something called an alpha x project. And it's this idea of a project

project. And it's this idea of a project that can take place over a long period of time, uh, that is as impressive as being an Olympian, right? Like as

impressive. And one of the things that we say is just like you can't be the world's fastest runner running in your own backyard, right? Olympic runners are out there showing and beating everyone

else to show like I am the fastest runner. The other thing is they're not

runner. The other thing is they're not just the fastest runner for their age.

Olympians are literally the best in the world. And so we take that same analogy

world. And so we take that same analogy and we put it with our high school students to say, you know, you're going to be not just great for your age, but really great compared to any

>> Give, us, a, few, examples., Uh, so, uh, an example of this our high school students uh that you got to see were pitching their capstone projects, their alpha X projects uh to venture capital firms to

secure funding. Right? So they were

secure funding. Right? So they were actually seeing VC firms who are looking at deals around the world, right? We

have a student who's got two million followers on Tik Tok and she's creating an app that can go to those followers that helps give them exercises they can do to develop confidence and resilience.

We have students who are interested in the arts, so they're pursuing something there. Other students who are working in

there. Other students who are working in coding projects. Um there's so many

coding projects. Um there's so many different places for kids to shine and so many different ways that kids can pour into each other and support each other and uplift each other.

>> Yeah., And, this, was, this, was, incredible.

So, I I got to witness like the demo day uh yesterday afternoon >> and, this, is, while, they're, getting academics that are going to pretty comfortably get them get them into the Ivy League on like 2 three hours a day.

>> So,, I, I, have, no, doubt, that, your, system >> for, this, this, first, batch, has, worked great.

>> Yeah.

>> Here's, here's, two, concerns., The, first concern is that you're confusing where the motivation is coming from because this first batch, right, they get to hang out with you. They get to hang out

with the other uh uh kids parents, some of whom are billionaires, some of whom are very successful entrepreneurs right? If they're willing to send their

right? If they're willing to send their kids to an experimental school, they're kind of mavericks.

>> And, so, what, if, that, motivation, is, coming from Mimisis and being in proximity with those people which obviously doesn't scale because your ambition is obviously is to bring this countrywide if worldwide.

>> Absolutely., Personalized, learning, via artificial intelligence is infinitely scalable. every person has the ability

scalable. every person has the ability to get that one-on-one personalization.

Now, of course, we're going to need internet access. We need uh computer

internet access. We need uh computer access, but for example, we're running a pilot program with refugee students in Malawi who have received Starlink internet. We've provided them with iPads

internet. We've provided them with iPads and the ability to get that personalized learning. The motivation there that

learning. The motivation there that we're doing is they get to earn special snacks and candy. They get to earn that'll work for me. Exactly. they get

to earn time uh getting to do they have they have tennis that they're playing with wooden rackets on a grass you know field basically uh but they get to earn time so it doesn't have to be expensive

to create those motivational models you can give kids time to go do do sports play basketball play soccer or football but the other part you talk about is okay what happens when we're bringing

this out to uh kids who maybe don't have that support at home and to be clear Jonathan you are absolutely right Our schools are self- selected, right? Any

parent who has raised their hand to say "Hey, I'm not just going to put my kid on the school bus that drives past my house each day, but I'm actually going to go out into this private model." Um

obviously there is a self- selection and and we would say that's true. But this

is my argument is that those kids who maybe don't have the same level of support at home, it's even more important that we transform that role of the teacher to be able to have time to

connect with their kids. I read a research study that showed the average amount of time that a teacher is spending with a student in the traditional school environment, 22

seconds per day. 22 seconds oneon one-on-one time. The majority of time is

one-on-one time. The majority of time is them talking to a group, right? Talking

to a group versus one-on-one. And so

when we can create this experience where we come into schools and their guide is able to spend time getting to know them each on a onetoone level while seeing that they're getting that personalized

learning that hits them wherever they are. That's even more critical. So, uh

are. That's even more critical. So, uh

the thing about an AI tutor, it doesn't care if you're white or black or brown.

It doesn't care if you're rich or poor.

It doesn't care if you're in the 15th percentile or the 85th percentile. It's

infinitely patient. It is truly the equalizer that can raise the floor and blow the ceiling off of what is possible. And that's why I believe that

possible. And that's why I believe that in the next 5 years, every kid is going to have the ability to receive personalized learning via a tablet. And

then it's going to be the job of us to change that role of the human which by the way should never be taken away.

Right? Allow humans to spend time on that motivational and emotional connection and the mentorship that that is important across the board.

>> Right?, So,, so, that, was, going, to, be, my, my kind of second concern, which is the socioeconomic one, cuz obviously, you know,, sailing, to, to to, Bahamas, doesn't sound too too too too cheap. And and you

guys are offering essentially an elite experience here >> but, there, are, ways, to, not, just, bring, the app down, but also to to do the guide thing at a lower price point as well, or Absolutely. What's your plan?

Absolutely. What's your plan?

>> Absolutely., So,, at, Alpha, School,, again, the question we ask is how high is high right?

>> This, is, if, money, is, not, a, constraint.

We're a private school model. Uh we have very high tuition. Uh it's between 40 and $75,000.

Uh and so really the question is when money's no object and we can pour all kinds of stuff into the life skills workshops and kids can can go and sail to the Bahamas as part of you know their

uh adaptability life skills workshop.

They can do these big things. Uh that's

one thing. But you can uh take all of that motivation stuff that we talked about and we can just do it on a different scale. Give me a soccer ball

different scale. Give me a soccer ball and I guarantee you and get a lot of kids who just are excited about that and give me the opportunity for kids to sit in a circle and play games with each

other or sing, which is what I would be doing. Uh you can get kids excited about

doing. Uh you can get kids excited about that. Uh, you know, I think about if you

that. Uh, you know, I think about if you put me in charge of public education K through 12, I would say we could still deliver personalized learning in the mornings and then in the afternoons

let's let's give them all the opportunities that they normally do at 4:00. Maybe that's going to band or

4:00. Maybe that's going to band or doing sports or going to theater or taking a shop class or doing vocational training, those types of things. So, I

think what we should do, let's get an organization like the X-P prize to sponsor, you know, a contest with, you know, the government where there's a $10

million prize to the company that's able to create this scalable, you know, AI solution, uh, that shows learning results. Uh, my belief and my entry to

results. Uh, my belief and my entry to this would also include the motivational concept because again, I do believe that's 90% of what creates the success that we have. This is going to make me

very unpopular, but I'm almost even more impressed that you're able to motivate the rich kids than poor kids. I'm

serious. Marco Curelius in his meditations had this one line. He says

"Happiness is possible even in a palace."

palace." >> Yeah.

>> If, you, translate, that, to, modern, speak, "Happiness is possible even for a billionaire."

billionaire." >> And, he's, not, kidding, because, the temptations of and I saw a lot of my my friends uh like the temptations of growing up rich >> you, don't, really, have, anything, to, worry

about, right? And whereas if you're in

about, right? And whereas if you're in the or let's say in the lower middle class and you're very motivated, well well there's a lot to be motivated by right? This is why immigrants do so well

right? This is why immigrants do so well here in America. Yeah.

>> And, so, um >> well, let, me, give, you, let, me, give, you, an example of that though that's it's not exactly on the money side. Uh but we had a group of students that came to us uh and they were behind academically. Uh

they weren't real motivated by what we traditionally were doing at Alpha. They

didn't really care about Alpha currency.

They didn't really care about the emporium. it just wasn't working. Now

emporium. it just wasn't working. Now

there's one thing they all had in common. They loved video games. They

common. They loved video games. They

were super into gaming, right? And so

here's what we did. We said, "We're going to take you guys into a program and uh you guys can do your two hours of learning in the morning, and if you hit

your goals, you unlock video game time at school with each other to do."

>> That, would, definitely, motivate, me., That

and the snacks would get me going. Okay

but here's the thing that's even crazier is a lot of those kids when they went home at night, their parents were letting them game. They could game all evening if they wanted to. Like the

parents didn't really have like gaming rules. Uh what parents started calling

rules. Uh what parents started calling us and they said, "It is crazy. My kid

is going home at night and getting extra work done because they would rather get extra work done at home to unlock more time >> social, gaming >> playing, with, their, friends, at, school."

And these parents are like, "Okay, in what world did I come in?" And instead of seeing my kid play Fortnite, they were doing math because they wanted to unlock that time. And what we saw was again that power of status and respect

and the social connection you had in that community. That was amazing. We had

that community. That was amazing. We had

kids go up multiple grade levels in four months just by offering up some time to get to play Fortnite at school. Now, to

be clear, I think there's a lot of uh traditional school uh purists who would like rather die than offer kids Fortnite during the school day. But guess what?

We again were like, "Well, the results speak for themselves. The results speak for themselves." And even more than

for themselves." And even more than that, those kids, their views of themselves, all the stuff we've talked about, their identities changed and they realized I I'm capable. I'm smart. I can

do whatever I set my mind to.

>> Right., Um,, when, I, first, heard, about, your system, the immediate idea was to homeschool because I've always thought about homeschooling my kids and um, the thing I didn't want to do was to teach

them algebra >> and, and, you, guys, kind, of, fixed, that., And

being a guide kind of sounds like being a good parent, right? You're trying to figure out is this going to Yeah. Yeah.

Does homeschooling work? You know

that's a really interesting thing because um you know, homeschoolers have known for a long time that it doesn't take all day to teach kids. You talk to most homeschoolers.

We can get it done in 2, three, four hours. We spend part of our time doing

hours. We spend part of our time doing this and the rest of the day is other things. And um so we have a homeschool

things. And um so we have a homeschool program and uh we have a lot of demand for it. But I will tell you um we've

for it. But I will tell you um we've been slow to release it on a wider scale um because as good as our personalized learning platform is, uh motivation as I mentioned is key.

and we know how to motivate kids when they're intuing platform when kids are learning twice as fast and we measure that with NWA map

tests. Uh and we won't release this on a

tests. Uh and we won't release this on a wider scale until we cross that 2x uh hurdle which we get with some of our students but we're not averaging it yet.

Um and really what we're what we've got to do is we have been building more uh internal motivation uh structures within the platform. Things like leaderboards

the platform. Things like leaderboards things like online currency that they can do, more team type activities that get kids excited about uh you know crushing their academics. Um and so I

think we're going to get there.

>> Uh, but, that's, a, little, bit, more slowgoing.

>> All, right., Thank, you, so, much,, McKenzie.

>> Thank, you,, Jonathan.

>> Thanks, for, watching, my, interview., If, you like these kinds of discussions, I think you'd fit in great with the ecosystem we're building at Cosmos. We deliver

educational programs, fund research invest in AI startups, and believe that philosophy is critical to building technology. If you want to join our

technology. If you want to join our ecosystem of philosophy builders, you can find roles we're hiring for, events we're hosting, and other ways to get involved on jonathanb.com/cosmos.

Thank you.