The Influencer Marketing Playbook - with Lily Comba, Founder & CEO of Superbloom

spent about $20 million on influencers but you know saw a return to over 100 million.

>> Lily from Super Bloom. Excited to have you on. Chat all things influencer.

you on. Chat all things influencer.

>> Thanks for having me. In 2023 is when I launched Super Bloom which is very much a culmination of my experience in performance influencer. I've been lucky

performance influencer. I've been lucky enough to be in influencer marketing for 10 years now. Being an influencer marketer was kind of a dirty word. Being

an influencer was a dirty word back then. Get weird with your campaigns.

then. Get weird with your campaigns.

Think outside the box and constantly be iterating. YouTube is almost like

iterating. YouTube is almost like traditional media buying. [music] If

someone has less than a 25% average watch time, you're not going to work with them because their viewers, 75% of the video is not being watched. Like, no

one cares what you're talking about. Any

brand [music] I know can be successful on YouTube, but if you're also a brand that has >> All right, we're about to talk about all things influencer marketing. Super

excited to get into this episode with Lily, but before we do, got to thank our sponsors. This show is not possible

sponsors. This show is not possible without them. Thank you to Motion, Rich

without them. Thank you to Motion, Rich Panel, Pression AI, Afterell, and Revo.

As always, if you like this episode, please share it. Sure, you're going to learn a lot from it. Take some notes.

Let's get into it.

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>> So, a few specific examples, we've been using it for at Hexcloud lately. Just

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>> So if you're a marketer that wants the insights of motion, go to motionapp.com and tell them that the operator sent you.

>> All right, Lily, how are you doing? Lily

from Super Bloom. Excited to have you on. Chat all things influencer.

on. Chat all things influencer.

>> I'm doing well. Thanks for having me.

>> Yeah, after about 30 minutes of behind the scenes, guys, by the way. So we

finally made it. But really got to see the inner work >> influencer, you know. [laughter]

>> Yeah, I'm sure it's nothing you haven't seen before. Awesome. Well, excited to

seen before. Awesome. Well, excited to chat. Excited to have you on. Um, you

chat. Excited to have you on. Um, you

know, excited to learn. Uh, I learned a lot working with you. I don't know how long it's been. Maybe six months. So,

excited for uh for people to kind of see uh, you know, what what what goes into to uh, building this influencer program.

Um, let's do a quick, you know, bio.

Would love to just hear about your background and then see where it goes.

>> Yeah. Um, I've been lucky enough to be in influencer marketing for about, it's coming up on 10 years now. Um, and 10 years ago it was called business development. It wasn't even, you know,

development. It wasn't even, you know, being an influencer marketer was kind of a dirty word. Being an influencer was a dirty word back then. Um, I got my start um, actually freelancing during, uh, my

first job out of college was at a traditional ad agency, specifically an out of home, which was interesting, but also really boring. Um, and as a new grad, it was kind of like sidehustle

culture was at an all-time high. Um, and

so I started working very softly in just partnerships marketing, helping um, mostly female entrepreneurs get connected to publishers, online magazines, etc. And I loved that. I

loved the dot connecting. Um, and so I got my first full-time job in business development, also considered influencer marketing, at Thrive Market. Um, and I was there for about four years. started

as a coordinator, kind of really learning the ropes, getting down into the weeds of influencer marketing, which is still to this day a very administratively heavy channel. Um, but

made my way up to a manager where I was overseeing the YouTube pipeline of talent. And that program was one of a

talent. And that program was one of a kind. It was also the first, you know,

kind. It was also the first, you know, one of the very early brands to adopt influencer as a key channel of theirs.

And it was all through the performance lens. So, I've always been trained to

lens. So, I've always been trained to work with influencers through a CPA or a rorowaz model. Um, and then in 2020,

rorowaz model. Um, and then in 2020, that is when Seed Health, the probiotics company, hired me to create and launch

their paid influencer program. Um, I was there for two and a half years. Spent a

pretty penny. Uh, spent about $20 million on influencers, but, you know, saw a return of over a hundred million.

And that was really when I was like, "Oh, okay. I might be pretty good at

"Oh, okay. I might be pretty good at this. [laughter]

this. [laughter] >> Yeah, this this might work. Um and so then um from seed to Super Bloom, which I did not realize that how cute that is.

Um in 2023 is when I launched Super Bloom, which is very much a culmination of my experience in Performance Influencer. Um but the best part about

Influencer. Um but the best part about running an agency with no agency experience is we don't really follow a rule book. So um

rule book. So um >> probably some pros and cons to that.

>> Yeah. Yeah. I had no idea what I was doing, but I feel like most companies when you start, you're like, "What's going on?

>> I have an idea. Let's see if it works."

>> Yeah. You know what's funny? I don't

know if I ever told you this, but I I connected I don't know who it was, but connected with somebody on the Seed Health um growth team probably like two years back, maybe three years back, because I was just like needed to learn really about their like partnership ad

whelisting program because I would just like see it was so successful. So, it

was uh I was an admirer of your work for for a long time.

>> Thank you. Yeah. I mean we um that was Thrive Market had a really robust whitelisting. I I did not seed obviously

whitelisting. I I did not seed obviously we worked I worked very closely um with the performance marketing and paid media team and I did not realize how unique that was until I launched Super Bloom

and so many brands were like we should be using influencer content on Meta. I

was like yeah let me let me help you understand this a little bit more. We we

very much take a a mentorship approach to all of our our brand partnerships.

But yeah, that was the the synergy between the paid team and the influencer team was really tight at seed.

>> Seems like it seems like it was very like growth oriented like >> Yes.

>> was it was on the was it on the growth team or it was similar, but it seems like it was like one of the big growth levers of the company, right?

>> I Yeah. I reported to um I don't know if it was V his name was V I think it VP of growth. um we fell under the growth team

growth. um we fell under the growth team but when I joined the company was still small enough where I was working with the head of you know organic social CRM

like we it that was a big reason why I think the seed program was so successful was obviously the methodology that we approached the influencer channel with but how omni how cross channel

collaborative it was um and especially in those early days by the time that I left the program was so big the company was so big that we weren't necessarily siloed but we had our own goals and we

were just kind of we were just a machine. Um, but I learned a lot during

machine. Um, but I learned a lot during my time there.

>> Yeah, that's cool. And how how did Super Bloom come about? Like how did you link up with obviously the Super Affiliate guys and curious >> I actually love this story because um in 2020 so Super Affiliate initially

launched as a solution for referral uh like uh referral and loyalty programs. Um and I think Andy and started it 2019 2020 t when they were roommates that their whole story is really hilarious to

me. Um, but they wanted to get into

me. Um, but they wanted to get into affiliate and influencer and their best friend John was the head of supply chain at Seed and John was like, "You should really talk to Lily because she knows

what she's doing and if you need if you need a voice of reason within the influencer and affiliate space, you should really talk to her." So, I first met them in 2021 and we just kind of talked on a monthly, sometimes quarterly

basis as they were creating tools and features within Super Affiliate um for the affiliate and influencer marketer.

And then at the end of 2022, early 2023, I knew that like my time was expiring at Seed. And they in one of our

Seed. And they in one of our conversations, they were like, "Would you ever go off on your own? Would you

ever start an agency? what do you have?

What's on the what's on the docket for Lily? Um, and that's truly how their

Lily? Um, and that's truly how their belief in me. Um, and the partnership that we developed together from a tech

and industry expert perspective, I was like, I have it's now or never, you know, if not me, who? If not now, when?

Let's go. And so that's how the really deep partnership between Super Affiliate and Super Bloom began. Um, and still to this day that is the anchor of our relationship with them. Um, we are their

sister agency. All of our brands are on

sister agency. All of our brands are on Super Affiliate. Um, and it's just fun

Super Affiliate. Um, and it's just fun to be building the software that I never had.

>> That's cool. That's really cool. That's

that's one of my favorite. That's cool.

Yeah, I love them. Andre and and Andy are so great. Funny story about honor.

This was like the first time I met him was at the um the Meta Performance Summit in in San Jose like a bunch of months back and there was this guy speaking on stage who like like great presentation from like one of the big

agencies but was wearing like very cool clothes and like I dress like I wear the same [ __ ] every day. Like I dress very plain. I'm like I wish I had that. Like

plain. I'm like I wish I had that. Like

I wish I had that swag and I was just like thinking about it like that's not me. And then right after Anders goes up

me. And then right after Anders goes up to the guy he's like dude where do you get this outfit? I want to get it. It

was so funny. I'm like

>> Anders is a cool guy. Like Anders Anders is kind of like a trendy cool guy, too.

So that's >> Andy's just like a sweet guy from Kentucky, you know? Like the two of them together are just truly iconic.

[laughter] >> Yeah. Like ecom incubator stuff. Like

>> Yeah. Like ecom incubator stuff. Like

>> they're right. They're right. That is a funny like origin story. It's like OG like Silicone Valley vibes like let's all live under the same house and like just jam all day until a good company

comes out of it. and their entire friend group is in like remarkable. Um, you

know, the book Outliers by Malcolm Gladwell, I feel like there's going to be a second version that just analyzes their friend groups [laughter] >> like cuz truly >> Yeah.

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>> What are some brands that you can obviously Jones number one, but what are some brands that you work with or have worked with like that you could you can tell us?

>> I mean, I didn't ask for permission from to mention any of them, but >> but they all you know, >> it's just Jones Road then.

Jones Road is our only Yeah, we will sink if you guys break up with us. No.

Um, Coupe Sleep Goods. Uh, I mean, we have a really strong retention with our brands and so >> um I would like Jones Beauty is obviously one of our brands. Coupe Sleep

Goods, Bobby the infant formula company.

Um, Stasis and Thesis have been with us for a while. Their program has evolved a ton. um, Oats Overnight, you know, Adept

ton. um, Oats Overnight, you know, Adept Naturals, like we really um, we're all of our brands are very anchored in disrupting their category, which makes

the influencer channel a lot more innovative and and quite frankly successful. So,

successful. So, >> yeah.

>> And I feel like when we're talking influencer, like it could mean anything.

Like there's so many different ways to run an influencer program. Like I guess let's start getting into it. Like how

what what kind of like scope how do you guys run the program or like how do you think about it? Yeah, we have um so it's actually remarkable to just see the evolution of our services since we

started two and a half years ago. Um

because a lot of it is still the same, but a lot of it is also us observing what's happening in the industry and making sure that our brands are staying relevant. Um and I think that's really

relevant. Um and I think that's really important as an agency. That's our

responsibility is to make sure that our brands are successful, that they're staying up to speed on the trends that we're seeing. Um, and

we're seeing. Um, and I never had that experience with an agency when I was at Seed or Thrive Market. Um, and so I'm really proud of

Market. Um, and so I'm really proud of our evolution because we still to this day our core kind of foundation offering is traditional organic influencer where brands come to us and they're like, "We

have a set monthly budget. Spend it

wisely." Um, to put it very simply. Um,

but our approach to influencer is always through the performance lens or the growth lens. Like we yeah we can report

growth lens. Like we yeah we can report on impressions and awareness and and reach and you know sentiment and earn media value. Absolutely. Um but our key

media value. Absolutely. Um but our key differentiator and what we're really good at is identifying creators, negotiating deals and briefing them in a way where brands will also see revenue

conversions and really strong CPA and row numbers. Um that takes time. you

row numbers. Um that takes time. you

know, you're some brands depending on depending on the campaign, depending on the timing, depending on everything like you'll hit your goals in month one, but it usually takes three months to kind of really get going and that's still our

core offering. So, we call it organic

core offering. So, we call it organic influencer, but we are negotiating paid usage rights for every single deal that we secure because that's so that is a huge priority to us to extend the

longevity and the livelihood of that influencers's organic posting. We get

the raw files, the edited files, and then we send them to the paid media team to run run it as an ad themselves through the influencers handle. You can

test it from the brand's handle. Um, and

we're actually running whitelisting for a handful of brands of ours right now as well. That's something that I really

well. That's something that I really want to expand into next year. Like we

are lucky to be connected to to some of the best paid media performance marketers. Um, and we already have we

marketers. Um, and we already have we have two brands on that skew, right? We

literally just launched it a couple months ago, kind of under the table. Um,

but we're seeing really strong success there. Um, and it's my goal to really

there. Um, and it's my goal to really kind of own performance influencer for our brands. So, not only working with

our brands. So, not only working with influencers in organic capacity, but being able to once the influencer posts the same day their ad launches because that efficiency and that speed is really

critical for success. Um, so those are two of our SKs. And then one that we are also working with Cody on for Jones Road is this like performance creative or UGC skew. Um, we have a handful of brands

skew. Um, we have a handful of brands that are on a hybrid model. So we're

we're running their organic influencer program and we're also building out in addition to all of that creative. We're

also sourcing UGC assets to just run on paid. Um, and brands can either do both

paid. Um, and brands can either do both or they can just lean into organic influencer or just performance creative.

But the important thing is just we will look at your brand and try to and really understand what it is that your goals are and customize a proposal for what we think will be successful.

>> And and just to clarify about UGC, it's it's essentially whitelisting. It's just

they're not hosting. But it's same it's not like the like they're still like more like influencers I would say versus like uh you know like a $300 content creator. They're still correct. But

creator. They're still correct. But

>> yeah, but no, I mean, you guys are the only people I've seen that get whitelisting rights as part of every deal, which is wild.

>> It's imperative. It's I think it's because I quite quite honestly don't know any different. [laughter]

That's just like it's what we did at Thrive. It's what I did at Seed. It's

Thrive. It's what I did at Seed. It's

just like it's baked into my influencer marketing DNA and it's baked into um you know the the women on my team. It's just

it's it's their nature. You know, it's really important for us to make sure that we are enabling the brand to be successful with influencer.

>> I love how you I love how you talk about your your uh services in such a productized way. I love how you're using

productized way. I love how you're using like you're talking about like SKUs and like I think that's I I know at like in my exper because I come from an agency background too and you just want to like do everything for your brands no matter

what it is and you're like you just want to provide value provide value provide value but if you don't have like your services super productized you just end up with like scope creep galore and

>> burnout galore and then you like there's just so many so many gray like where does our work end and begin? And so I love hearing you talk about your your offerings like SKUs because you're like here's skew one, skew two, skew three.

It's very clear that you guys have a very well-defined scope of work and like here's what we do and here's what we don't do. I think it's it's refreshing

don't do. I think it's it's refreshing to hear like services business services founder talk about their product offering like that.

>> Yeah. I mean it's probably because I'm a CPG junkie that I just I speak in SKS all the time. I'm like well when is that skew launching? When is that? I'm like

skew launching? When is that? I'm like

that is not and that's just you know I've you know perfect example that I come from inhouse where you talk about skew all the time.

>> Um so yeah our agency is very much built by in-house people which I also think helps differentiate us in our output.

>> I I want to I want to ask you something specifically about your like organic social bit. Um because like we at

social bit. Um because like we at Hexclad we you know for a long time like were thinking about organic I think the wrong way and we were thinking about it from like I want to measure traffic. I

want to measure revenue. I want to like assign a rorowaz and a CPA and it just felt like we were marching towards the wrong KPIs. Especially with our with our

wrong KPIs. Especially with our with our products where like our hero product is a $700 set. Most of these influencer activations that we're doing are reaching new audiences. So, it's really

it's not the right approach for us to think that like we're going to activate with a brand new creator, do four organic posts with them and see like a ton of revenue because we have a very very long consideration period, right?

So we actually we shifted the KPIs that we optimize our organic influencer to be more impression and CPM based and like we are we are purely trying to arbitrage

impressions and CPMs with our organic influencer deals and then we have a you know some deals that are a little bit more like revenue uh oriented but then it's really the paid ecosystem where

we're really focused on like all right let's get a bunch of spend behind this and drive revenue. So like that's how we think about our influencer program is like organic all about impressions and

CPMs and like those are the the KPIs that we set and that our like influencer team is held accountable to is like impression growth targets. Um and then

the influencer or the paid team is all about revenue spend return on ad spend all like the classic performance metrics. So, what are you seeing on on

metrics. So, what are you seeing on on the organic influencer side for the brands that are like effectively driving trackable revenue? Like a what like

trackable revenue? Like a what like what's the um what's kind of like the DNA of those brands and like their products? And then b how are you setting

products? And then b how are you setting those like like very tactically speaking like how are you set like orchestrating those organic posts so you can track revenue? Like is it discount code, short

revenue? Like is it discount code, short links with UTMs? like what's the like the mechanics of those of that content and those influencer posts that y'all have found to work the best?

>> Yeah. Um well, and I just want to say too that you have to test and learn and he Hex Glide is a perfect example of that where you launched your influencer program thinking that it was going to be bottom ofunnel and it wound up being

more beneficial for you to just have top of funnel uh KPIs. Um that's a lot of our brands are simply bottom of funnel.

Um but one thing that I have observed is more and more brands are understanding the benefit like influencer is a fullfunnel channel. Um it is a rising

fullfunnel channel. Um it is a rising tide that lifts all boats. It's going to generate site traffic. Google search

increases. You know it's you're going to see lapsed customers come back because an influencer posted about your brand.

Like there there's a very wide halo effect to influencer. um for our more bottom offunnel um partners and brands um how we even the brands that are doing

well with organic influencer actually have a higher AOV but not $700 [laughter] um because especially like coupe sleep

goods for instance like their their AOV is in the low hundreds closer to 200s um and what we've noticed is that that is a

successful whole rorowazbased program because the influencer doesn't have to sell as much product in order to hit a certain rorowaz goal. Um, and so that is

actually one of the early screener questions that we have when determining if we can work with the brand, if they will be successful with influencer is we ask about AOV. Um, because depending on

your AOV, you'll either be successful within a CPA model or a rorowaz model or we would advise more of an impressions and awareness um based approach. Um

so you know that just to talk about the the part of the funnel but in order to make a program successful from a performance lens and you know to drive sales the bas

the most basic thing is enabling the influencer with a link and code. I it

some brands are successful with a landing page experience. Some brands are successful with just a direct redirect to the PDP.

>> Um like Jones beauty is a great example of that. We la we started our program

of that. We la we started our program with landing pages and we're like no if people want makeup they just want to go to the exact product that that influencer was talking about and purchase the shade that they want and

call it a day. Um and so you have you obviously that was through testing and learning and and pivoting very quickly.

Um but enabling the influencer with a code and link having you know software that can give you a really strong attribution and a good understanding of what that the customer journey is. Um,

but something that we've also been really successful at, and Bobby is a Bobby Infant Formula is a really good example of this is get weird with your campaigns. Um, think outside the box and

campaigns. Um, think outside the box and constantly be iterating. Obviously, if

it ain't broke, don't fix it. Like that

was that was what at seed. I also think it was a time and a place like 2020, everyone was thinking about their health and optimizing their immune systems, etc. And so there was so much longevity

to just a 15% discount. it lasted for two years like and we saw no with no need to change.

>> Um but be as the influencer landscape gets way more competitive staying relevant and from a how you're briefing your creators, the campaign that they're

a part of. Um how you're utilizing that influencer content across organic social as a brand, paid social as a brand, CRM, email, you know, SMS. Um

it's just it's you got to make sure that you're breaking through the noise.

>> Do we always struggle with discount code leakage? Like

leakage? Like >> oh it's the it's the bane of my existence. Like we will launch a

existence. Like we will launch a discount like if it's a any sitewide discount code is going to leak within seven days. And it's like all of a

seven days. And it's like all of a sudden we're going and looking at like UTM. It's like this person drove 400

UTM. It's like this person drove 400 like sessions via their UTM, but they have like 188 discount code use. I'm

like, there's that's not right. There's

no way they have a >> Yeah, somebody can fix this. There

there's a lot of value in it.

>> Oh my god.

>> I think Cody, we're laughing because this is a problem. We're happy.

>> Yeah.

>> Um, and I will say, so I'm a growth marketer disguised as an influencer marketer. If you haven't picked that up

marketer. If you haven't picked that up yet, and for me, I'm like, a sale is a sale. [laughter]

sale. [laughter] >> Code leakage. Amazing. that's still a new customer. The issue for influencer,

new customer. The issue for influencer, there's two issues. The first one is if you're paying that influencer commission. They did not they did not

commission. They did not they did not earn that sale. It's someone picked up their code and they're earning commission on a code that they did not generate organically themselves. That's

the first issue. The second issue is that, you know, you may see an influencer generated three per 30 300 purchases and you want to renew with them and you're way more flexible in

that negotiation because you're like, well, you crushed it for us. Um, as an agency like we we understand that codes leak and so we we have a good eye for

when that happens and there's a lot of there's a lot of checks and balances to determine if it was leaked or if it was true performance. And the first one is,

true performance. And the first one is, you know, if you see conversions in revenue in whatever software you're using, compare that to the link clicks.

Is that is it on par with what you're used to seeing with influencers or what the sitewide click-through rate is?

That's the first thing. But the the true determination is when you get there. So

after an influencer posts, you always need to request their post campaign insights so that you can see from their true backend what happened. And if an influencer sends you a screenshot of an Instagram story for instance and they

only got 27 link clicks but 300 purchases, you're like something does not add up here. Um, and that's when you can create and what this is what we've done for Jones Road. It's when you

create a not not only a multiplier to be like this is actually the performance of this influencer. Um, so you identify a

this influencer. Um, so you identify a multiplier based on your program averages, based on the influencers averages, and then you also create a custom click-through rate for your influencer program because that may be

different than what is, you know, normal for the site.

I think we're handling it okay. It's an

always on program unless you want unless your platform that you're using can do onetime use codes. That's the only solution is onetime use codes.

>> But I'm a consumer. We're all consumers.

I'm gonna remember someone's code and purchase maybe three weeks after they've promoted a brand.

>> Um, so it really is up it's up to >> it's up to you. You decide like do you want to just be on it with code leakage and just monitor things knowing that >> people have name recognition of codes or

do you just want to eliminate any, you know, potential error and just do one time use codes?

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Can I ask about the what how does that that multiplier bit work because I think that's that's an interesting thing and you see that like >> this idea this whole like multiplier

idea this is really um it's not unique to like what you're what you're doing right like marketers are doing this across their entire measurement stack like I think one of the the big examples

we look at is we'll run hold outs in house >> we'll get a readout on house and then we'll make a multiplier between like the channel that we were running a hold out on and or the tactic we're running the

hold out on and then like whatever the the most like the best day-to-day decision-m tool is. So, a lot of times you'll see people saying, "Hey, our multiplier between this house result and

like this readout in MTA is is X, right?

Like we know if we're at this in the Northbeam MTA that we'll be here in terms of like blended cost per incremental order." So like that that

incremental order." So like that that allows >> marketers to take a test that maybe took two and a half months to run and translate it to a tool that they can make data daily decisions on so they can

constantly like see how they're performing, have a relationship and like make quicker decisions. So how are you doing that with the uh the influencer like performance numbers and and like

discount code usage and stuff?

>> Very similarly. Um, and I will say too that every brand's multiplier is different. And if you have an agency

different. And if you have an agency that is saying it's a 20% 30% multiplier across the board, like that is just that's simply not true because every brand is different. Every AOV is different, the product different, the customers are different, everything is

different. And so,

different. And so, >> um, it's it's honestly quite simple. We

>> are we have all these checks and balances to determine what the true performance for that influencer was from that click-through rate, from that conversion percentage. That's how we

conversion percentage. That's how we come up with our multiplier.

>> I wanna I I want to share like our our journey and like what it's been because I feel like it's like a good example to answering a lot of this. So we started internally. So prior to working with

internally. So prior to working with Lily um like this January of doing like paid influence stuff and we were looking at it brand first. We were working with more of a brand focused beauty agency

and we probably didn't spend but we you know we'd spend you know 50k and be like all right like what do we get? We got

here's our EMV here's our awareness and I'm like all right is that good? is you

know and it's like we weren't at the size of a brand where it's like all right we're going to you know now we have tracks suit on board and so we're looking at awareness lift and things like that but that wasn't really like our goal we were in between so it's like

I don't I want to scale the program I want to get more whitelisting access stuff like that but like I'm never going to be able to scale it at you know not having any revenue so you know that was when we started working with Super Bloom

and considering it more of a um more of a performance channel and I think the thought is like this is a it's going to hopey break even, right? Um, we can or

or make some profit. It there's

definitely awareness there that is, you know, kind of part of that multiplier, but even better that that you're building. Um,

building. Um, >> but obviously we we can't just have it be just an awareness channel. Um, and

then you also get all of the value, especially because you guys are not having to pay extra for the rights that it feeds your ad account, you know? So,

it's like what is I think that's where we're even trying to figure out right now. I'm really trying to because I want

now. I'm really trying to because I want to continue to grow and scale this channel is like yeah what is our multiplier because first is it's clearly there is good amount of revenue that you see on a click right it's especially for

Instagram it's not going to just be all >> you know uh views and people searching or code um but there's the challenges that you guys identified with the with the codes a lot of people are just not

going to use them there's going to be some people that don't click but don't use code as well and maybe they buy different devices on it we also because we're not discount counting. I think

there's less incentive to use our codes for a gift with purchase compared to another one.

>> Um, >> yeah.

>> So, like we're probably at like a 7.8 rorowes right now. And like that's probably great. Like we should pro my

probably great. Like we should pro my guess is we should probably scale that and like that's great if you consider multiplier plus awareness plus >> if we took by the way if we took 20% of

that cost removed it from our organic influencer program now we're above a one. And so that's my that's my guess

one. And so that's my that's my guess because we can't do a house geolo lift test. We uh house has told me we need to

test. We uh house has told me we need to get to 2% of our media mix for it to work in our mm.

>> So in our media mix model so that's where we're trying to get to.

>> Um but that's kind of that's like how how we're approaching it and going about it. I think October was our third month

it. I think October was our third month of testing with our organic influencer and that's when we saw a like a a clean 1x rorowes. Um, which is kind of typical

1x rorowes. Um, which is kind of typical that that's that's what I preface. Um,

I'm like give it give it a couple months and Cody is incredible to work with because you just I mean you just get under you understand funnels.

>> No, because I made but I made mistakes before because we started in January and I didn't spend enough and I didn't commit for a quarter. So,

>> and it's how you structured the deals and how you negotiate like there's this whole playbook, right? Um, and I think that it is nor depending on your category as a brand and depending on

this November and December as we all know are very difficult months. Like you

can either it's incredibly competitive.

It's way more expensive on the meta side. For the influencer side, they're

side. For the influencer side, they're all like, "Oh, holiday pricing." You

know, we don't buy into any of that. But

um so it's normal also for your performance to eb and flow based on year based on the year based on the seasonality based on how competitive it is. Um I'll just put put that out there.

is. Um I'll just put put that out there.

But >> could you walk through some like either maybe using your the numbers you just gave Cody or like just dummy numbers like what how you would like think about like what's the stepwise for setting the

multiplier like with some actual numbers. So like Cody, you said you guys

numbers. So like Cody, you said you guys are getting like a a.7x

uh indirectly attributable, but you know that like only a fraction of what that influencer driving is driving is going to come through like the link or the code. And then there's obviously a bunch

code. And then there's obviously a bunch of Halo. So like I just I'm trying to

of Halo. So like I just I'm trying to like what's the what's like the I'll get some numbers.

>> You just pulled up I just pulled up our campaign tracker. I got the math right

campaign tracker. I got the math right here.

>> I'm going to give I'm going to make up numbers if anyone is listening. These

are not real numbers.

and Albert, these are not real numbers.

>> Yeah. Yeah. Shireen, we had a 5x row.

Just want you to know.

>> Um, so and yeah, so in in October, we were actually at a one in November.

Maybe performance was softer, but also we we had a lot go live at the end of the month for holiday. So like that maybe hasn't materialized, but so let's say we spend 100K, right?

and we got, you know, 70k back in, you know, directly attributable revenue, which is mostly click, maybe some code.

You know, again, we know that there's some type of a multiplier, right, for click because that's what that's probably I don't know, Lily, what window are we tracking clicks on?

Do you know what standard is where we're at?

>> I would have to check. I think it might be it's not as long as it could be. I

think we're at maybe 14 or 30 days. Um,

which is standard. Yeah. So there's

still going to be some multiplier. Yeah.

There's still going to be some multiplier of cross device that you know things like that. Um there's also going to be you know the code usage.

>> So uh I think we're saying it's like a 1.4 is like our current guess based on the click versus code but you can share more on that.

>> Yeah we basically what we did it so we started to see code leakage in October.

Um but the difference was nominal. It's

like code le co October with leakage was a 1.32 October without leakage was a 1.18 rorowaz. So nominal difference but

1.18 rorowaz. So nominal difference but as consumers pick up on the fact that a brand is working with influencers the more likely your codes are to leak. So

you're just going to be doing this practice on a regular basis. It's just

an it's just get comfortable with it. Um

so what we did is we we anal we did conversions clicks click to purchase ratio with leakage and without leakage from what we spent from the revenue that

we generated we then using that click to purchase ratio we determined rorowaz and CPA we also you know we we mark a ob did not change

um so that's also a good thing is that the codes that leaked those weren't I can't swear they weren't crappier customers >> [laughter] >> Um, so that is that's actually pretty

kind of rare. Um, because usually customers that come through leaked goats tend to be lower quality. We'll we'll

we'll have to analyze the retention of those specific customers, but we'll cross that bridge when we get there. Um,

so from it's it's really like from the click to purchase ratio and the difference between the leaked ratio and the non-leaked ratio. That's how you can determine your multiplier.

>> We did not have all codes get leaked. It

was only three influencers, but it was I mean they got that they got leaked big time. Um like maybe 81 conversions, 72

time. Um like maybe 81 conversions, 72 53 like that's a lot to me. That's a lot of leakage. But we basically took the

of leakage. But we basically took the influencers leaked conversions compared that to their clicks. What was that click to purchase ratio? And then what we could from that we can basically

their expected conversions. So this one influencer that I'm looking at her expected she was smaller. We we expected three from her. She generated 81.

>> Yeah, >> that's a that's a pretty good leak.

>> Yeah.

>> So, >> and then what about on the other side of it? Like the people that you just know

it? Like the people that you just know are like they saw the Jones Road beauty content, but naturally not everyone's going to click that link or or type in that short URL. Like do you have a do you have a way to also add a multiplier

like on the on the side where people are going above the the funnel that you've intended pe like their audience to follow? That's kind of what we're

follow? That's kind of what we're figuring out right now. Um,

>> that's tough, right? I mean, that's like that's like the really hard part. Yeah,

>> it can be. I mean,

>> there's there's there's value. I think

that's the thing. It's like so we're trying to figure out like, all right, what is our click row ask the same way, right, Connor? Like we'll talk about

right, Connor? Like we'll talk about doing it for a YouTube channel or you know, doing it for for meta ads. Um, and

then, you know, we we kind of just decide this arbitrarily, but we because we're getting ad rights for 30 days to all this stuff, we take 20% of that cost. So it's really 20k of the hundred

cost. So it's really 20k of the hundred and so where our like that brings our row is better. We're just like hey that 20k we're going to code that to ad creative rather than influencer because you know that's what we think the value

is worth. So there's I think there's

is worth. So there's I think there's that there's even just I think longer term awareness >> that gets built from this that is maybe less of a you know performance thing but

there's obviously clear value. So my

hunch and my guess and we're also talking about like again >> 1% of our media mix like we've talked about it with like Conor McDonald before. It's like you know if we're

before. It's like you know if we're spending 5 million a month on digital ads we should probably be spending 100k to 200k plus on influencer you know but it's like >> we have a plan for you to do that.

>> We're getting there. We're getting

there. [laughter]

>> We sent our budget proposal I think yesterday.

>> Yeah.

>> Yeah. I mean it's and kind of what you were talking just just speaking to it's like this this halo effect of if your brand and maybe it we had this happen at

seed where it's like oh there it's everywhere like you can't you can't avoid getting a seed ad or seeing an influencer speak about seed that is

harder a lot harder to do nowadays. Um,

but it is it's like part of this halo effect that Cody was talking about where there's there's more there's more to it than just the cold hard numbers that you're seeing.

>> And you have brands that you're like so like more more Hexcloud where like we've got like we we were just looking at our we've been pulling our year-over-year, you know, we're doing our recap right now. We're like 1.3 billion impressions

now. We're like 1.3 billion impressions in tag social content alone because we seed a ton. We have people like Gordon obviously who rack in you know 50

million on their own. Maybe not 50 but a lot. So like on that I always think like

lot. So like on that I always think like that simplifies the organic influencer play a lot right because now you don't have to set up all the discount codes.

You don't have to set up all the short URLs. There's a lot less like logistical

URLs. There's a lot less like logistical like post mechanic conversations happening. And I think that's like the

happening. And I think that's like the most >> I think that's the most under um appreciated or underaware component of influencer programs is the amount of comms happening between like an internal

a influencer or an agency team and the actual influencer is insane. There is so much back and forth going on. But

obviously that gets a lot less um when you're not doing like all of like the the performance stuff. So

>> yeah, >> like if you have if you had 10 brands at seed or at uh at Super Bloom, sorry.

What what percent would you say are like really leaning into like what Jones Road is doing right now where they're like doing more of like organic performance versus what Hexclad is doing where I'd say for every you know we we usually

don't have like the whole like sometime like we just launched our cocktail shaker. That's one where we did have

shaker. That's one where we did have like a whole short link UTM schema because we wanted to understand like where was our traffic coming from totally new category but I'd say the vast majority were not doing that. So

like what's your like split do you think in brands optimizing for like performance revenue rorowaz versus like impressions no like volume of tag

content etc. H well a 100% of our brands are performance [laughter] >> all of them. Um I think

maybe literally one >> one of our brands um is uh understanding that and it's it's

Bobby Infant Formula um where we are we we have been working them with them the whole year actually. Um and their CMO is a genius and if you have not had her on your podcast you absolutely should.

You're >> talking about Kim?

>> Um yeah.

>> Yeah. I love Kim. She's great. We talked

about having her on actually.

>> Uh she's just the best. And like my favorite, this is a total tantrum. My

favorite thing about being on the agency side is actually we learn a lot from our brands. Like yes, we come to the table

brands. Like yes, we come to the table as channel experts, but there's just so much that we um learn and learning from Kim and the entire Bobby team like they under it's infant formula. Most people

are going to buy that in retail. Their

DTOC sales are incredible. But we have been so that has been one of our more impressions and awareness leaning brand out of all of our other brands. And we

have worked with them throughout this entire year, you know, working in partnership with their paid media team to be like, okay, yes, this influencer posted now, let's make sure we're running it as an ad and just kind of

establishing that also almost like that muscle memory within their organization.

Um, but they they're a unicorn. Like

there's just something about Bobby where and I think it's because it's quite literally a life or death product for an infant. Um if that is the formula that

infant. Um if that is the formula that you're using, you're going to continue using it for the entire year that a baby is on formula. Um but that influencer

program is so top offunnel, but they have really strong conversions on site.

And that was also another brand where we started with landing pages and then within the last couple of months, we saw that they weren't performing as well. So

we're just redirecting to the website now. Um so I would to go back to your

now. Um so I would to go back to your percentage 100% of our brands with like some asterisk.

>> Right. [laughter] Right.

>> Yeah. Some of them we had to get them there. Like that's our ultimate goal is

there. Like that's our ultimate goal is like even if we start with a program that is retail focused or impressions and awareness based like our ultimate goal is to make sure that there is

always some performance element because I think some brands get that influencer can be performance some brands don't.

Our job is to get every brand to understand that there is untapped benefit to working with influencers.

>> Makes sense.

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>> You guys are are really good at negotiating. How do you think about

negotiating. How do you think about going about these deals? Like what do brands need to know if they're going to try to do this themselves of like what is important cuz cuz what I found is a doing it before you guys still doing

some on the side is like >> people will request very high numbers.

Do you guys have like a framework or how you go about about this process? Uh yes.

Um I am big on integrity and accountability when it comes to negotiating and also when it comes to just contractual obligations of an influencer and and holding them

accountable to their performance but not in a like a mean way. Um so I always like numbers don't lie. So that is how

we anchor our negotiations. Um

influencers are more expensive than ever and that does not scare me. that doesn't

I don't shake in my boots like that.

It's you get someone's media kit, you get their rates and you ask for the full picture. So, and it and it varies based

picture. So, and it and it varies based on platform. It varies depending on

on platform. It varies depending on Instagram YouTube podcast Substack/newsletter, etc., Tik Tok.

There's there's you request enough data um to predict how that influencer is going to perform and that is how you

anchor your negotiation. Um, and I am also I was at a conference earlier this week and I was talking to someone who's a bit more junior and influencer and they had recently worked with a bigger

influencer that completely flopped. I

was like, "Well, have you shared performance with her team yet?" Like

with the talent managers like you can do that. I was like, "Yeah, yes." Like you

that. I was like, "Yeah, yes." Like you should absolutely be communi like that is how you develop a partnership. That's

how you develop a relationships. That's

how talent managers get easier to work with. helpfully there are some that are

with. helpfully there are some that are it's just impossible.

>> Um but it's just a it's a matter of being like in the early stages of negotiating being like these are the engagement. This is the engagement that

engagement. This is the engagement that I have calculated for this influencer based on this engagement. This is what I can pay him or her or them for a partnership and then after they've posted communicating how they performed

and what we can do to optimize and are they open to a make good if you know in order they're so close to hitting our goals. if you hit this goal, we can

goals. if you hit this goal, we can renew with you. Just gamifying it in a little way, but it all comes back to just showing up in that relationship.

>> And so, like, you're just to be super clear, and obviously I know a little bit of it, but you're you're saying you almost like model out performance. And

so, you'll get their stats, you'll get their IG stats or newsletter stats, whatever it is, and you're like, "Hey, this is what we think the clickthrough rate is going to be. This is what we think the conversion rate is going to be. At this rate you're requesting, we

be. At this rate you're requesting, we can't break even. Like, can you do it for this number?" Is that is that correct? Yeah. And I've always if I've

correct? Yeah. And I've always if I've always been that way like and sometimes um one part about like using that approach to negotiate too is when you

say like I actually think you're going to generate 500 conversions, you would make more money on a commissionbased model and you write out that math and then you get them to agree to more of like an affiliate commissionbased model

versus a flat fee. There are very few far fewer influencers nowadays that um will agree to commission and it's mostly because a lot of them have talent

management and splitting taking a percent taking like a talent manager per you know commission it just gets a little bit more complicated. Um, but

that's also kind of like a fun benefit to negotiating, too. And it's and it you're in negotiations, our goal is obviously to set the brand up for success, but it's also to set the influencer up for success. Like, if I

think you're going to make more money on a commissionbased model, that's a win-win all around because if you do flop, the brand didn't just invest a bunch of money. Um, and so on.

>> Can I can I ask a followup, Cody? uh

self selfishly cuz I'm like curious about these higher AOV brands. One of

the ways we've thought about this in the past is we we have like a pretty good idea of um like the percent of our orders based on survey data that come

like within a week a month 3 to 12 months 12 plus 24 months from from discovery. So, you know, one of the ways

discovery. So, you know, one of the ways we've like started like in the past have thought about this is if we let's say we know that like 10 orders come in from an

influencers's post attributed in that first week from like uh a discount code or a UTM based. If we know that like

only 10% of our orders come in, all of our orders come in in a week or less from discovery, then we could in theory say, well, if we we could almost model out like, well, if 10 orders came in

within a week, and we only we know that blended only 10% of our orders come in, we could almost say, well, we can create like a multiplier where it's like we know 90% of our orders are going to come in over the course of like a year and a

half or two years. So, we could almost model that out and use that initial number to say like, okay, we can multiply this. I don't know exactly what

multiply this. I don't know exactly what the math would be off the top of my head, but whatever like the an like 90% growth to get to 100% of orders on 10 would be and you can model it out. So,

yeah. Do do you have any like high AOV brands selling like three, four $500 products that you've like kind of cracked this and have been able to create a uh like a model that that makes

sense where they're able to use the immediate sales data and traffic to like bottle out a longer tail of that performance and for that influencer.

We um our highest AOV brand is around 200 250. Um and

200 250. Um and >> I want to say that our our program with them is so successful

the same day an influencer posts. I

would say that more so. Yeah. A OOV to me. Um, and this could be an area

me. Um, and this could be an area honestly for me to kind of explore more and learn more about, but AOV is how we determine and predict kind of what your

goals should be, ROAZ or CPA, etc. >> Um, for us the it's for me it's channel based what you can how you can expect performance to

continue or or change over time. Um, and

like Instagram stories expire after 24 hours. So, you know, it's like you got

hours. So, you know, it's like you got 24 hours to see kind of how that's going to convert. Reals live on forever, but

to convert. Reals live on forever, but they also die down with the algorithm.

Like things don't really reviralize like they do on say YouTube. Um, YouTube,

it's like the influencer posts and you want, yes, you'll see conversions come in within the first 24 hours of them uploading their YouTube video, but you also want to be looking 14 days, 30

days, 60 days, 90 day often, uh, analyzing how that first YouTube video performed. So, for me, that's more so

performed. So, for me, that's more so um, how you can see per, you know, performance or perfor moving through over time. It's more channel-based for

over time. It's more channel-based for influencer, >> right? Yeah. Yeah, I'm just thinking how

>> right? Yeah. Yeah, I'm just thinking how we could model it cuz to your point like yes, an Instagram reel is going to have its moment in the sun for a day or two.

Um, but how can we model that out over like as long as you get some signal in that that first day or week or whatever?

Like you should be able to >> Yeah. Yeah, I think I think what we're

>> Yeah. Yeah, I think I think what we're boiling down to is like there is a way to model everything. And like having a model even if it's imperfect is better than having no model at all because then you can make good you can at least make

you're going to make a better decision if and of course like you need to pulse check your model to make sure it's not rooted in like >> right >> not nothing that's not in reality but like having a model to like back into is

better than having no model.

>> Build your model based on what you've tested.

>> Don't be afraid of testing. Don't be

afraid of making a mistake. Like the

only like you have to you have to invest at at some point at some level and from from the testing that you do give it a three-month test determine your multipliers, determine your model. I

mean that's also a really short amount of time. Um so you can have program

of time. Um so you can have program modeling and you can also have like per influencer as as well.

>> That's a good point too because like so like I know YouTube is doing well for us so we're going to shift more to there.

like we shouldn't just have like a programwide model >> because it's obviously that's going to shift as well. Um but would love to chat about YouTube a little bit like I don't know I I love I love YouTube. I'm trying

to learn you know more about it but um talk about YouTube obviously you said it's a little bit longer tail. Do do you see less clicks there? Like do you think that's more of a viewbased channel than

something like Instagram? Um it's it's clicks for us because um we always have you know you know the description top of fold. We always have like the call to

fold. We always have like the call to action for the brand with the link and the code all above the fold for in a YouTube description. Um so it's clicks

YouTube description. Um so it's clicks and it's conversions.

>> Yeah. But the the fun part about YouTube comes actually in the negotiation because unlike Instagram, there's just way more data that you can ask for to predict performance. you can predict a

predict performance. you can predict a CPA and you can predict a rorowaz with with a YouTuber um because you can see how many views their their average views that they're generating because it's public information like you can compare

their subscribers to their their generated views. You can also ask for

generated views. You can also ask for average watch time, click-through rate, um subscriber versus nonsubscriber views. And so all of those metrics help

views. And so all of those metrics help you do a qualitative and quantitative analysis on their channel.

It's my favorite.

>> YouTube is my favorite. Like we're also I think we're that's a big rock for our influencer program this year is get like penetrate YouTube more. We're we're all over Instagram and Tik Tok. I don't

think we're in YouTube enough.

>> What's like the >> do you do you recommend like integrations like like mid mid video like what's the type of like content that you like to activate with influencers on YouTube?

>> I know Hexclad you guys both Hexclad and you guys could have so much fun on YouTube. [laughter]

YouTube. [laughter] Um because with both brands, you don't necess like they're going to use the they're going to use the products in videos that you're not even sponsoring.

Um it's going to be in the background.

They're going to be showing a day in the life. They're going to be cooking with

life. They're going to be cooking with Hexclad. They're going to do a get ready

Hexclad. They're going to do a get ready with me with Jones Road. Like YouTube,

YouTubers are the best. Um but to answer your question, YouTube is almost like traditional media buying. So I mentioned average watch time and that is a success metric. So, I mean, YouTubers are

metric. So, I mean, YouTubers are publishing 30, 45 minute videos nowadays. The average watch time is a

nowadays. The average watch time is a retention metric. So, you can see how

retention metric. So, you can see how long their viewers are on average watching and completing a video. And so,

that that's a success metric for us. If

someone has less than a 25% average watch time, we're not going to work with them because their viewers 75% of the video is not being watched. Like, no one gives no one cares what you're talking

about. Um, and that's we always position

about. Um, and that's we always position an integration within the average watch time. That's a contractual obligation.

time. That's a contractual obligation.

So, if your average watch time, you have a 20-minute video, it's 15 minutes. You

have to put your Hexlide, your Jones Road sponsorship within the 15 minutes that your audience is watching to optimize for the most views. Um, and

when I was at I mean this nine, eight years ago when we were at Thrive Market, that was like the unboxing era of influencers where we would literally sponsor dedicated videos of them unboxing their Thrive Market order. Do

not do that. Like, no one cares. Um, and

I think YouTubers are not going to agree to a dedicated video anymore either. Um,

and they're also not going to have multiple sponsors within the same video.

So, you're booking an integration where the influencer is speaking to like two minutes about your brand. Um, which is a lot longer than what you can get in a

real and an Instagram story. And so, any brand I know can be successful on YouTube. But if you're also a brand that

YouTube. But if you're also a brand that has really differentiating talking points like what makes Jones Jones Road unique, what makes Hexclad unique and

really they can get into so much more messaging in a YouTube integration. Um,

so Seed was really successful on YouTube because there was so much to talk about that one singular skew at the time. Um,

so that's how I would that's that's what you look for. That's how you book a YouTube video and you're always booking integrations. And you can also suggest

integrations. And you can also suggest titles if you're a little bit more sophisticated and you understand the YouTube influencer landscape a little bit more deeply. Like you can suggest titles as well. Um, like I want to make

sure that I'm included in a vlog versus a day in the life. Like there's you can it is a little bit like Mediavine.

>> So you don't like you don't like dedicated videos at all anymore in YouTube. You're all about the

YouTube. You're all about the integration and having it be native to Okay. What how does that translate to

Okay. What how does that translate to like an ad? Are you then saying like, "Hey, we also want to be able to like cut the uh the integration and use that

that specific like minute 6:30 to minute 8:45. Like we get access to that footage

8:45. Like we get access to that footage and we can run that as an ad because you're not going to run like >> their whole video, their whole 15inute video, right, as an ad." But like you want that clip.

>> You'll get the raw clip. Yep.

>> Yep. Got it.

>> Um I would say that I a lot of brands are afraid of YouTube ads. um from an influencer and as like a media channel.

Yeah.

>> Um but I think that YouTube should be a much bigger part of a brand's media mix, not just influencer, but also for for ads, >> but the MTA data looks bad.

>> Yeah. [laughter] Yeah. No, I'm I'm excited. I mean, we again, we started we

excited. I mean, we again, we started we tried it with like Aentio and stuff and it just the performance wasn't there, but So, I'm excited that we're seeing some good performance. YouTube ads do very well for us. Um

>> Yeah.

>> So, I'm excited. really do.

>> Yeah. And I think uh I think yeah, I mean there's a lot of I think value in it. I do think again it's still a

it. I do think again it's still a performance channel, but I do think there is and I've seen data on this that like it does drive brand metrics and brand health like really well because it is a longer form video where you're getting a much, you know, Conor McDonald

talks about this a lot, but you're getting a much higher quality impression. You know, CPM is worth a lot

impression. You know, CPM is worth a lot more there when you're getting somebody to watch it for 30 minutes on a TV screen versus, you know, just scrolling by.

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>> What do you wish brands knew about influencer in general? What do you think brands get wrong or when you're working with them or say or just what you see out there? You're like, I just wish that

out there? You're like, I just wish that like everyone got this in 2026 almost.

>> Well, I think this conversation has been very exemplary that influencer is not one-sizefits-all and that your initial perception of influencer will change. It

is very rare that it's like influencers are going to do this for us and then you start testing and it's oh wait it's doing something else but that's magical.

Um so I would say from a clicked up from a program perspective it's not one-sizefits-all. Your agency has to be

one-sizefits-all. Your agency has to be customizing your proposals your blueprints your program it has you know it every brand is different so every influencer program should be different

too. Um, and then I would also say from

too. Um, and then I would also say from like an influencer marketer's perspective, um, I just stopped being so transactional.

>> Yeah.

>> Like I can't believe that I'm still saying that to this day. But yes,

there's a transaction happening, but it's all about the success of your program is the success of your relationships within that program, which is inclusive of the talent managers, which which is inclusive of the talent.

And like we were talking about earlier, it's it's just communicating frequently and often and transparently and um making sure that you're setting everybody up for success. So, um you

know, I think that as the creator economy as a whole, it continues to explode. Um just being way being open

explode. Um just being way being open and flexible, that influencer may look differently for your brand than it does for your best friend's brand and and so

on and so forth. Just make sure that you have a team in house, have an agency that kind that can adapt and be fluid, that is staying on trend. Um whether

it's in-house or an agency, also making sure that they are enabled with a software that will help them be successful as well.

>> Cody, one of the one of the things I've we've spent a lot of time thinking about is is uh organic versus paid. Because

for us, like when we do organic influencer activations, a lot of times they're centered around recipes and like that's not really the best content to run in a paid ad. Like

>> it there is some subtle >> some subtle shifts and I don't think that's necessarily the case for every single brand. I think there are some

single brand. I think there are some brands where like the organic post can be native to that creator's uh content and the brand's content and it can be used as a paid ad. But we're starting to

really like I'm pushing our teams for every influencer deal to think through like like would this person work for organic? Yes or no. Would they work for

organic? Yes or no. Would they work for paid? Yes or no? Just based on their

paid? Yes or no? Just based on their style of content. And if the answer is yes to both, let's actually send them two different briefs. Let's let them do thing that's organic. Let's let them do their thing that's more of a paid ad. Um

and that's just for us because like a recipe is not going to necessarily be what we want to run in paid. And then

and then if the if the question becomes do we have to choose yes or no to use this person in both or one or the other it's like the default answer at least for us should be paid because we are a very paid media driven org and

creatorled influencerled ads work very well for us. So we've been spending a lot of time in the last few months just like just kind of level setting on like when and like if we have to choose one

we should choose paid. if they're gonna work for both and we think that they have the content style for both and the budget for both, like we should not be sending them one brief, we should be sending them an organic social brief, we should be sending them a paid media

brief. So, we've been just like kind of

brief. So, we've been just like kind of like fine-tuning our thinking around it a little bit more. And I'm I'm really excited to see how that plays into Yeah.

>> 26. hoping that creators that we were only getting organic content from are now sending us great organic content that we're hopefully getting good impressions and CPMs on. We're also

getting uh a iteration of that that's like more of aoriented paid ad. So

that's been one of our our big shifts uh as we head into the new year.

>> Yeah, you're building more of a hybrid program and I would love more brands to think about their influencer program being more hybrid and being more crossunctional because like we were talking about earliest part of our

conversation is just how cross functional the seeds influ the seed influencer program was. Um and you know making sure that your influencer team understands that like

program all programs look different where these this is going to be my budget for organic influencer. This is

going to be my budget for more paid influ you know growth influencer. It

they're not going to look the same. Like

those programs are going to look very differently. Their briefs are going to

differently. Their briefs are going to be different. Um the way that you script

be different. Um the way that you script them, the way that you the actual deliverables that you book with them are going to be way different. Like for

Hexclad, the organic is like, how do you use Hexclad in your in your day-to-day life? There are influencers that can

life? There are influencers that can sell Hexclad that in that way. There are

other influencers that are going to create an amazing UGC ad for you and you can ask them to also record two additional hooks and two additional CTAs. So, one deliverable is actually

CTAs. So, one deliverable is actually six. And then if you've got an amazing

six. And then if you've got an amazing video editing squad, >> those six videos can be >> 20, you know. Um, so yeah, going back to

just like think a little bit differently >> like if someone sees >> if someone sees, you know, this person post like a a very organic to their content integration with our product,

visits our site and then a week later sees a bit more of a product focused ad from that same person. Like that's a fantastic experience right there. That's

a great that's a great like one two touch point versus >> they're getting sold the product, right?

And unless unless it's like a Bethany Frankle, right, where like that is her organic style, right? Like she's every one in three or four posts is her like selling a product. Like unless that's

the creator, like you shouldn't try to like like square peg round hole and be like, "No, we want you to sell our product and then post it in your your or your feed." It's like no, that's not

your feed." It's like no, that's not native to their audience. If anything,

that's manipulative to her audience because that's not the type of content that they're there for. So I I love like the one-two punch of organic native to their native to their the content they are posting and then in the ad account

put more of an ad and I think that's like the best experience you could give that person's audience.

>> Totally. And I even think just like speaking to talent managers and talent directly it's not all about organic.

It's not like you we are also opening up new income streams for influencers and working with them in different capacities. um like we want to work with

capacities. um like we want to work with you on an organic comp campaign, but we also want to work with you on a UGC campaign. Instead of it being a one-off,

campaign. Instead of it being a one-off, it's now two separate campaigns. And we

can analyze that influencer's performance. Like if they perform well

performance. Like if they perform well better organic than they do on paid, we're just going to lean in organically.

Like you are also that comes back to the relationship. Like you have to think

relationship. Like you have to think there's yes benefits to the brand, but tremendous benefits to the influencer because they also learn about where their strengths are.

>> Yeah. I we've also been starting to think more like how how do we go to these influencers instead of saying, "Hey, we want to run ads from your page and positioning it more as

>> hey, we're going to potentially put six figures of media spend behind your handle." And that has huge benefits for

handle." And that has huge benefits for your awareness and your follower count and like thinking through how do you how do you position these whitelisting deals with creators that's a little bit more of the lens of like

>> this is going to benefit you not just like hey we want to spend like we want to run ads from your page like >> positioning is I think subtle but important here. I'm laughing because

important here. I'm laughing because that conversation has never changed in the decade that I've been doing this [laughter] and like my biggest wish is that like to

understand the benefit of having an having a brand basically boost your content as an ad is like you're going to get more followers, more awareness and yet with that yes could come the

occasional hate comment that is on the brand to delete, figure out, handle whatever. Um, but I just think more and

whatever. Um, but I just think more and more agencies are open to it. It's very

rare that an influencer is like straight up, no, you can't do partnership ads with my content. You can't. And there's

very few influencers that are like that.

Um, but because talent managers are picking up on that trend of brands wanting paid usage, they're charging an arm and a leg for it. And that is when I have to, you

for it. And that is when I have to, you know, read them the script of what's the benefit to the the benefits outweigh this fee you're charging me.

>> Yeah.

>> Um and let me prove it to you in this scope of work. Um we'll monitor how this influencer's channel has grown and from from a basic like vanity metric like a follower, like we'll be able to tell you

how many new followers that you generated, but you'll see that yourself.

Um, I do think that the issue can arise where an influencer has too many ads running from their handle. Um, but you also don't want to be working with influencers like that because if they're

taking way too many brand deals, they're not going to be that. No, you don't want that.

>> Do you have a sense of like what uh how do you model out like a ballpark influencer budget? Like do you feel like

influencer budget? Like do you feel like there's like a percent of your topline revenue that you can use or is that a percent of your total ad spend like do you do you have any um like mental

models for I know it definitely changes per brand like I've heard some brands say like you should spend at least 1% of your topline revenue on on influencer which I think like if I think back to

where Hexclads put their budget like I think that's decent like that's probably how art has has trended like plus or minus a few basis points but do you have any mental models for

Not. I mean, Cody was actually the first

Not. I mean, Cody was actually the first brand that spoke to us about like 2% MM, you know, I was like, "Oh, is that how people decide?" Um,

people decide?" Um, >> of your your media mix, right, Cody?

>> Yeah. That's just what House has told me to to get like >> right >> accurate data in there.

>> Especially because like with a channel like influencer, there is a manual lift of getting that data into an MM. It's

not like that API. So, it's like >> you're probably not going to have good data and not going to be worth it for less than that.

>> Yeah. got to send them like every influencer post that's happening.

[laughter] >> That's crazy.

>> It's it's I I don't have a good answer for that. It's it I I know in my mind

for that. It's it I I know in my mind the budget minimums where we can have some fun >> and where we can actually start gaining some some seeing some numbers h gauging

success and the sweet spot for us has been 50k minimum.

um we will be flexible and go lower than that for certain brands um that we feel confident in that they're disrupting something or like yeah we can we can

have some fun at 20k. Um but as the industry gets more competitive as more and more brands are working with influencers there has to be a minimum investment level in order for you to to break through

>> your competitors that are doing influencer already.

All right, Lily, this has been great.

Uh, thank you so much. I I learned I know Connor did as well. Conor, you got any like maybe one more question or anything else you want to honestly get to?

>> I This was awesome. I learned a ton. I'm

I got my wheels turning on how we should approach YouTube this year.

>> Do your homework.

>> Yeah.

>> Oh, you guys would crush YouTube. I

mean, like I [snorts] can't I I also, by the way, my like entire Instagram is like food stuff. Um, it's just like what I engage with and like look up recipes.

I I I barely make them. I make a few, but like obviously Hexclad is all over it, right? Like so much seating and

it, right? Like so much seating and stuff like that, but I feel like YouTube you guys would crush. You're just like >> I'm actually not >> I'm I'm actually shocked that you're not >> It's not that we're It's not that we're

not on YouTube. It's like we did a YouTube sprint um in 2023 to get like our products like and we do have like we like Prudent Reviews for example is like a big YouTube cookware reviewer like

we're very integrated with him. The

stronger so we are there. I just like I think we need to go into 2026 and say, "Hey, we're gonna we're going to put x% of our because we're just like the impressions we get in Tik Tok and Instagram is massive, but like YouTube's

definitely lacking." And like YouTube

definitely lacking." And like YouTube ads are >> are becoming in a bigger and bigger and bigger part of our strategy. We just ran a big hold out test and got a really really positive uh read on inality. So,

I want to like we're going to keep spending on YouTube and I if we're going to keep spending paid on YouTube, I think we just need to continue to ramp up the organic influencer YouTube stuff.

So, that's that's kind of like the guidelines I want to give to my team this year is like >> here's our influencer budget. I want you to spend a minimum of this percent on YouTube. Like, go. Um,

YouTube. Like, go. Um,

>> yeah.

>> So, yeah, this has been really helpful to help kind of shape that thinking. So,

I appreciate it.

>> Yeah.

>> All right, Lily, this was great. Thank

you so much for joining us. Um, this was awesome. Where can people what should

awesome. Where can people what should people do? Where can people follow you

people do? Where can people follow you or learn more about you?

>> Um you can find us on uh Instagram on you know by superb bloom.com or by superb bloom on most platforms. It's by superbloom. Um and I love to talk about

superbloom. Um and I love to talk about influencer. Um so you can also email me

influencer. Um so you can also email me lilybyloom.com.

lilybyloom.com.

We are we're happy to chat. It's my

favorite thing to talk about.

>> All right. Thanks so much.

>> Thanks so much. All right, guys. That

was a good one. Episode 92 with Lily from Super Bloom. That was an awesome one. Uh, we love working with her.

one. Uh, we love working with her.

Obviously, you can tell why. She's super

smart, super bright. So, I could tell Connor Roland was taking notes the whole time. Think you guys are really going to

time. Think you guys are really going to enjoy this. If you do, please share it.

enjoy this. If you do, please share it.

Share it. Post it on X, subscribe on podcast, wherever you get it. Drop us a comment on YouTube. Tell us whatever you think. And again, as always, thank you

think. And again, as always, thank you so much to our sponsors, Motion, Rich Panel, Pression AI, Afterell, and Revo.

We'll see you guys on the next one.