The Mahler Hour - "Inside Embrace Everything with Aaron Cohen"

hi I'm Morton svik vice president of

Malo foundation and host writer and

producer of the Mal hour where we bring

you the personalities

places I'm sorry we have a problem here

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everyone sorry about that hi I'm Morton

svic vice president of M foundation and

host writer and producer of the M hour

where we bring you the personalities

places and projects happening right now

in the M Community around the world last

month we returned to our series of

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found out that that last show is still

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one of his many M

moments for this episode of the M hour

we will be taking an inside look at the

prizewinning podcast Embrace everything

dedicated entirely to the life and works

of Gustav merer I'll be joined by its

creator and producer Aaron Cohen before

we get to the details let me remind

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foundation.org for all of the

details let's get right to our program

today by taking a closer look at yet

another program dedicated to mer the

podcast Embrace everything my guest

today is the creator producer and host

of that series Aaron Cohen aarin welcome

to the program great to see you Morton

thanks so much for having me so tell us

a little bit about Embrace everything uh

first of all what's the podcast about we

know it's smaller but we you can be more

specific um and what are you trying to

accomplish with this show sure so uh

each season of the podcast dives into

one of the mer Symphonies and we've done

the first three we're going in order I'm

currently working on season 4 uh which

will be four episodes about Mer's forth

Symphony and the goal is to bring M's

music and his message to the world um

it's available for free on all the

podcast platforms you don't need an

expensive ticket you don't need a fancy

music degree uh to enjoy this it's

really for

everyone so what motivated you to to

start down this path what uh what did

you wake up one morning and said you

know we need a m podcast that goes into

every Symphony for a whole season how

did that come about well it was it was

it was a took a bit of time when I was a

teenager I loved uh the instrumental mer

Symphonies and then in my 20s I became

more familiar with the ones with the

choruses and the vocal soloists but then

in my 30s I I don't know exactly when I

just became obsessed with these

Symphonies and I noticed that the mer

Symphonies the concerts these were

non-negotiable I go to a lot of concerts

I go to a lot of performances of all

kinds but the merer ones I would map

them out the year in ad the whole year

in advance and I would buy my tickets in

advance and uh it just kind of became an

obsession that is still with me to today

my background is as a radio producer and

an audio producer and my my specialty

has been um audio uh audio documentaries

about classical music and the Arts so in

2010 I decided I wanted to do this

project took a little while to kind of

get things going uh a couple years

actually and then in 2015 I was able to

do my first interview for the series and

then after a few false starts we finally

got season one out out uh in 2020 so

it's been a journey it's been a long

journey indeed but it uh it seems like

uh looking back at it it's there's an

inevitability to it isn't that

interesting how sort of of course you

were going to do something like this all

of the qualifications and dedication

were there uh but the pieces falling

into place that can take time and uh and

that that's kind of um persistence that

um um you could even call sort of

stubborn persistence right against all

ODS to make it work we'll talk more

about making it work in uh in just a few

minutes uh where did you get the title

to embrace everything well that comes

from M's famous quote uh from when he

was talking to selus he said a symphony

must be like the world it must Embrace

everything and we referenced that at the

beginning of each season and I talk

about how we're going to explore Mer's

musical Embrace we're going to see how

mer musically Embraces everything in his

Symphonies and um so a season for each

Symphony means that you have by virtue

of the length of these um um Works

different lengths of season right do you

is it is there an episode for each

movement is that how it's broken down

yes that's right we have one movement uh

per episode so season one there's four

movements in the symphony there's four

episodes five movements in the second

Symphony five episodes and so

forth I I uh we'll check back when we

get to season8 because uh that sounds

like a bit much only two episodes on

that enormous work you might expand on

that one that one we might pick it up a

bit you might have to break the format a

little bit for that I suspect so just to

give our audience those who have not

already um tuned into your H podcast to

give everybody a sense of uh what these

podcasts sound like we've uh you've

selected Snippets from each of the

seasons so we're going to start with

season one Symphony Number one and and

have a listen to uh a section devoted to

the third

movement mer is also able to transition

between contrasting styles of music with

great fluidity back to Bill hudgin I

love it when he gets soft and he gets

these very tender almost sensual type

moments

uh some of those places are incredibly

beautiful you know like the

transition in the third movement of this

First

Symphony halfway through where it dies

down and down and down and then this

beautiful soft violin Melody starts this

whole little section that could

be it could be something quite sensual

it could be something for a child it it

uh he does amazing things things that

[Music]

way we'll talk a little bit more about

your guests and and you we'll actually

from these three Snippets we're going to

hear a variety of people chiming in and

it's part of what accentuates this in in

very different ways as you go through

the pieces let's let's go to season two

this is from the fifth

[Music]

movement just as in the third mov after

a huge Outburst we see eternity peeking

through we're reminded of something

greater Beyond ourselves Caroline ke

part of this is a journey of

self-discovery divinity is everywhere

and we all participate whether we're

aware of it or not

one discovers it within oneself and one

recognizes it in all beings M's close

friend zek freed lipiner put it like

this take the Divinity of the world into

your will and it will come down from its

Throne lipiner believed that art helps

us recognize the Divinity within

ourselves and throughout the world and

lipiner said in our most enlightened

moments we'll be struck by the most

profound thought the world as a work of

art

in such moments our sensibility is

filled by the most sacred religious

shudder and the world as artwork this

world of religious intuition it our

sensibility will faithfully and

reverently call

God have to let that one sink in it's a

bit much as we do a sort of review we're

sort of brought into that that whole

sphere um Erin

um uh kind of speechless there um maybe

we should go to season three I do you

want to set this up in any way or do we

just want to listen to uh to the next

excerpt oh I can tell you with this next

excerpt this is our actor James lurry

who is the voice of Mer and he is

reading the lyrics to The Changing of

the Guard in summer over the opening of

the third movement and that theme of the

third movement is from the song the

changing of the garden summer so it's

one way that we sort of um bring the

song into the symphony and show how

they're

connected let's

listen the cuckoo has fallen to his

death on a green Willow the cuckoo is

dead has fallen to his death who shall

now all summer long while away the time

for us

Mrs night Andale shall do that she sits

on the green branch that small and

graceful night Andale that sweet and

lovely night and Gale she Hops and sings

is always joyous when other birds are

silent we shall wait for Mrs night

Andale she lives in the Green Grove and

when the Cuckoo's time is up she will

start to sing

this is the text that if you know the

song you're hearing right when you hear

this music but of course so many people

hearing the third Symphony aren't

necessarily acquainted with the song so

it's a it's a wonderful way of bringing

the music and the text together I we

could go down so many rabbit holes based

on what we've just heard uh I would

rather keep going because we're going to

talk about season 4 and how this is all

put together um but I think everybody

who's uh watching and listening will

will see what type of richness is

already um coming from all of this and

um if we have some time I'd love to go

down some of those rabbit holes with you

but so the basic structure is that you

are the narrator and there's a backtrack

of musical excerpts comments by experts

and um instrumentalist members of

orchestras and voiceovers of historical

figures most prominently mer himself

right so you get this Panorama of ideas

and

sounds uh yes exactly and and um I like

to think of um a train journey I was on

a couple years ago uh in New York state

it was a a dome car going through the

Adera and we had a park ranger a forest

ranger in there with us and he was

pointing everything out as we just went

zipping through this incredibly

beautiful Lush area and I think that's

kind of what we try to do with the

podcast where we're surfing the wave of

the music we're rolling along with the

music and these experts keep popping in

and telling you oh listen to this look

at this how about this what do you think

of this so um the idea of sort of

Surfing the music we do include the

entire movement in each episode so by

the time you finished listening to one

of our episodes you have heard the whole

piece we're not excerpting exactly um

but that's I think kind of what we're

trying to trying to do and and the when

you say you've heard the whole piece you

mean uh in Snippets as they're discussed

uh is that what you mean by covering the

whole movement I mean we've we've we've

uh when I talk about riding the wave of

the movement we ride the whole movement

from start to finish we jump in at key

places and talk about it but it's

different than say a lecture or you know

I think of a a university uh talk or

something where you you speak a little

bit you talk about what you're GNA hear

then you hear it then you go back to the

speaking and and then you go back where

ours is much more of a blend of the

talking with the music and I think I I'd

like to think that's sort of what makes

it unique in that way and why people

like to listen to it because they get

the ride of of hearing the music the

whole way through yeah with the

commentary I like that I like the the

Dome idea of looking out the window and

and getting more than than you bargain

for in a way and enriching that what uh

what how are you using the recordings

are you getting recordings from uh

orchestras that you work with I just

that's a technical question I hadn't

thought of before uh I have to license

uh uh all the recordings we use

everything has to be paid for and um we

have originally I thought when we

started I thought oh I'll just pick my

favorite M recording and we'll just use

that and then I saw what the bill was

going to be and realized that would be

impossible so we kind of actually snip

it up it's almost a Frankenstein in

terms of you know six different

recordings all edited together so you

can't tell but um in a funny way it's

turned out to work better than I would

expect because I often have my favorite

parts of just each segment of a

recording instead of the whole recording

so I can kind of pick and choose my

favorite spots and weave them all other

yeah yeah fascinating and and you've

mentioned it before the a your audience

is uh um not necessarily the is it it's

not the necessarily the music expert

crowd for sure um nor maybe even the M

sort of funado crowd right you're trying

to reach beyond that yeah I mean I do

think we're a music podcast I I expect

music listeners uh to come to this and

certainly I've heard from a lot of

people who weren't familiar with mer who

this has really helped them enjoy Mer

but because mer sort of embeds such a

beautiful spiritual message into his

music I feel like it almost goes beyond

music you don't have to know anything

about music I mean I think it helps if

you like music but um but it does you

know where he's trying to take you is

something that everybody you know it's

really sort of universal in that way

yeah yeah and if you can hit that if you

can hit that cord or or make that

resonate with people who aren't

necessarily coming only for the music or

who discover out of that there's so much

more than they really are discovering

mer aren't they I mean that's this is

what we're trying to get at yeah exactly

and uh and it this seems to have struck

a court you the reception has been quite

positive tell us a little bit about that

you were also given some very important

recognition uh lately yeah well we've

had we've had really great success on

the Apple music podcast charts I should

specify that these are the charts that

are only music related podcast so we

can't compete obviously with political

talk show podcasts or comedy or crime

True Crime all these things so within

the the the music podcast World we've

been able to reach number one in the

podcast charts all over the world we've

been number one in the United States

we've been number one in many places in

Europe uh many places in South America

India New Zealand uh I'm here in Italy

right now we've been number one here and

Mort you're in Vienna and Austria we

have not made it to number one in

Austria we made it to number two

so there's a lot going on here in music

Aon all I can say is there's there's a a

lot of competition not that there isn't

elsewhere but well so season four maybe

we can get to number one in Austria if

we'll yeah we can do with that

fascinating congratulations it's yeah go

ahead oh and then and then also in the

last year we've had uh some terrific

Awards season three has won five Awards

our special episode about Leonard

Bernstein and Mer which is called M and

the Maestro uh that's won four Awards

and I'm uh currently sitting here uh in

the Rockefeller foundations's bagio

Center in Italy where I'm doing a

one-month Fellowship uh where I'm

working on season 4 um and the

fellowships uh are given to projects

that the foundation deems are beneficial

to humanity so uh we are the first

podcast they've hosted uh in their 60

plus year history so this is just a

tremendous honor and I am so grateful to

be here I'm here for a month I'm

actually um towards the end of the month

uh and it's been an an extraordinary I

can't even put it into words how

beautiful this location is how amazing

the other fellows that are here with me

there's a group of 13 of us all

different fields of work but everybody

has a project that they are working on

and we all have dinner together every

night you can imagine the ideas and the

all sorts of the top just the

conversation is incredible the the the

location is it's just it's a magic IAL

place it's a magical place I'm so

grateful for this extraordinary

opportunity from the Rockefeller

Foundation well congratulations on that

too I mean on a very personal note you

of course get involved in in in bringing

this you know it's not just you being

exposed to them it's the other way

around and and the fact that the

Rockefeller Foundation has recognized

the contribution to humanity this is not

because of the music it's because of the

things that we very things we just

talked about and the fact that mer is

able to elicit to inspire and to go to

to those places that uh indeed I think

strike very deeply in in what it's like

to be human so um that's that's a great

sign and uh certainly a sign of success

in bringing out this vital aspect of uh

of our composer if I can call him that

definitely our composer yeah so as you

say Embrace everything is going into its

fourth season and you're in the midst of

completing it I have to say one of the

pleasures for me of doing M hours that I

get to get in IDE the many elements of

these creativity around the composer

today and this is certainly one of them

um let's talk about how you pull it all

together because uh this is uh you know

opening up the the getting under the

hood of this wonderful result that many

of our listeners I'm sure and and

viewers have seen but getting inside

this and how it's actually put together

I think it's important for people to

understand the process and to maybe

appreciate um the depth of work because

I mean just what we just heard those few

segments um indicate that there's a lot

going on here so tell us that we've got

a little graphic here you've you've

you've provided us with a little list of

uh of a howto it's more complicated than

the list looks like uh but this is the

what we've called the process graphic um

and I think we should just go through

each of these one at a time uh not too

much depth but they give everybody a

sense first of all it's a longer list

than many might realize and and uh you

can you can flesh out each of them as we

as we go along sure sure um well

starting at the top the reading and the

research I take a few months where I

just read everything I get my hands on

and start to uh think about the ways in

which um uh I can best present uh

whatever the specific uh elements that

are unique to the symphony are for

example season 4 in the second movement

of the fourth Symphony there's a very

there's a violin so that's quite unique

so I'll I'll sort of mark down okay I

need to find a concert master who can

talk about this and those sorts of

things all come up in that in that

opening sort of bit and then the and

then I do some very long interviews with

Marilyn McCoy who is our spectacular

Musical and historical adviser uh we've

been working together for almost a

decade now on this and I can't even

begin to tell you the special

relationship I have with Marilyn when we

start talking about mer we both care so

much about this composer there's a we go

into kind of a Zone that um very

difficult to describe but uh for example

season three I interviewed Marilyn for

15

hours uh that's how much that's that's

you know but this gives me we we from

these interviews from I mean Marilyn is

in the show obviously uh and she's

actually an audience favorite from the

beginning she's been uh an audience

favorite but um all sorts of ideas come

from this and this really helps me to

Branch out even further of who should I

be talking to what else should I be

reading um and we bounce a lot of ideas

around um I always you know Marilyn's

getting emails from me at all hours of

the night as I'm reading and trying to

figure this out but um and then after

that uh I start the process of recording

all the interviews and reaching out to

people and

um in the previous Seasons the first

three seasons I've done all the casting

of the actors myself uh this season is a

little different I've hired uh somebody

who's a who's a real casting director to

help me because we have more actors in

this season than we've ever had I think

we're going to have more than 10 and um

so that's something new but uh the

interviews are with conductors with

musicians with musicologists with

literary

Scholars um we have a food expert for

season 4 because there's a lot of food

discussed in uh the last movement so you

know there's there's there's a lot to to

to interview a lot of lot of people lot

of different topics to talk about and

then after I have everything uh I start

can I just jump in here for just a

second I I I don't want to I don't want

to break the flow too much but when you

record these interviews first of all you

just said that you have conductors

instrumentalists singers uh

musicologists historians philosophers

food experts uh it gets to be a lot of a

lot of material right uh I mean you just

said you had 15 hours with Marilyn uh

alone uh how how are you are you on the

you must be constantly trying to

prioritize or do you get a transcript of

everything how do you then boil this

down because you it must be an ongoing

process you can't come at the end and

say okay here I have my 200 hours of

material and I'm gonna make now uh for

episode how long are the episodes on

average Arin well it depends on how long

the movement is season 3 even though the

symphony is just under two hours all all

six episodes came to three hours of

audio um I think season four is going to

be about three hours as well so it is

there is a lot of sort of trimming down

and trimming down and trimming down and

often after an interview I'll go through

it and pick out you know the parts that

are most helpful most useful I think and

then as I put it on top of the Music and

start to think about how it's all going

to work we I keep sifting sifting it

down you know uh sort of like a Tetris

game actually where to find the the the

clips that are the right length of time

and that fit the music um but yes you're

right it it's by the time it's done

there's an enormous amount of material

that has to be gone through and that

does take a lot of time yeah and and you

talked about this becoming an Ever

longer cast of uh contributors I asked

you sent you sent us the the cast lists

of the Four Seasons and I asked Marco

our our technician here just to put them

in I this is not for to be read but I

just give you all a visual sense of how

these casts are developing this is

season one

next one is Season

Two Season

3 season

four the cast list ever expended cast

list I just thought that that just

visually gives us a sense of the

increasing uh complexity of putting

together the show not necessarily

speaking to the complexity of the pieces

or or does it

uh it's interesting if I could go back

to season one again and add a few more

things I probably would some of this is

to do with as I've now been doing this

for a few years I I feel a little more

confident in knowing that I can juggle

more voices um so there's some of that

but yes there's more there's a lot to

talk about with the different Symphonies

and I'm surprised because the fourth

Symphony which is the shortest smaller

Symphony and would seem to be the

simplest is actually going to have the

biggest cast of the bunch so far so

right yeah right so I I'm just wondering

to um because you're

maybe handling these components in a in

a in a way that um has to be learned I

guess and then we can put together more

complex shows as as things progress so

the next the next uh I interrupted I I

jumped in here on the cast list side was

is assembly of audio and creation of

script right so what I do is I'll sort

of once I've got all the clips I'll sort

of put them in order on top of the music

basically everything except my script

and then write my script around that um

and so that's kind of where I am now

with season 4 where I'm just at the

point where it's about to go to the team

of editors um and I have a terrific team

of editors I've always like to have a

large group um we had four editors at

first now we have five and I I like that

because there's a democratic process

that uh if everybody tells me that this

part stinks it stinks and it goes and

you know you really and if everybody

likes something that I know I I know

we've we've nailed it um and then if you

have something where some people like it

you know it's half and half you really

realize this is very subjective um but

there's a great deal of um discussion

between uh me and the editors and I

trust them all tremendously and they've

done such an amazing job I think of

lifting what I bring to it what I I

bring my rough draft and then they lift

it up much much higher and then the

mixing of the final audio you'd think

would be pretty straightforward but

takes a lot of time because we have if

you think about it for season 3 we had

25 voices and all of those voices need

to be eqed in such a way that none of

them jump out or pop out or they all you

know it all has to kind of be uh in at

least the same the same basic level but

on top of the music and the the music of

course is a wildly uh dramatic uh uh uh

Sonic setup that you have to you have to

have these voices uh on top of and then

also gracefully bring the music

underneath and bring it back up in the

right places so it's a real dance that

our audio engineer his name is Rick Quan

he's he's I think he's sort of an audio

wizard he's able to make all of this

really sparkle if you were to hear the

versions of these you know an episode

before it's mixed and after it's mixed

it's a huge difference huge yeah yeah

it's that is an art form I I wanted to

ask you about the five editors I thought

the editors were also audio editors but

no these These are text editors going

through transcripts of everything that's

being said including what you've written

for yourself is that Cor correct yes and

and they're listening they're also

listening to the audio drafts so they

have the you know and uh we can go

through quite a few drafts of this I

remember with the last episode of season

two which is the fifth movement I think

we had 42 drafts uh by the time we

finished so it it there's a lot of back

and forth and um and I I love it for me

it's you know each each each pass it

gets it improves

so yeah and it and what are you looking

I mean you said you you respect very

much the feedback of the editors but is

there anything in your mind that you're

thinking as sort of the Touchstone that

this is what you want to achieve and

when you know when you know you're there

you know it or you just feel

uncomfortable until it feels good I mean

how is there something more conceptually

clear than that yeah there's a point

where I I feel like it does start to I

can hear in the episodes okay we're

there we're getting there we're almost

there you know it starts to Sparkle in a

way that it didn't before or the

questions or the concerns I have are

have been are no longer there um Marilyn

is very good when she she says uh oh

this is awesome like if she says it's

awesome then I know we're we're actually

probably pretty close because she

doesn't say that right from the

beginning um she's a good but the

editors each the interesting thing is

they each bring different things so I

might get a list of comments from one of

them that's totally different with all

kinds of little things to fix that

nobody else mentioned so by doing all of

them you know each of

brings this you know becomes bigger than

the sum of its parts um way um and I

think I just the I like the I like the

collaboration part of it because I know

I can only take it so far on my own I

really do need that that help of these

experts to kind of help me lift it up

sure but then somebody has to say it's a

you know it's a cut or and someone has

to say enough is enough or whatever

right I mean so that right well that

does become that does fall to me to say

okay we're done yes we're done here yeah

we're done here interesting um let's see

we're at the half hour mark just a

reminder if you're with us live feel

free to send us questions to the chat

we'll be happy to answer in the Q&A at

the end of the hour all right so we've

taken a look at your Workshop um Erin

and now let's talk more specifically

about producing uh the fourth Symphony

and here we also have a chance to look

and listen to a couple of sneak previews

I think we're going to start with the

the trailer for season 4 and then we'll

talk we'll talk more about some of the

details that have gone into this um in

terms of the work itself so let's listen

to the the the trailer for season

4 the great composer gusta mer said that

a symphony must be like the world it

must Embrace

everything but in his fourth Symphony

mer scaled back his orchestra to

something more intimate this will

surprise the gentleman who always always

claimed that I work only with the

heaviest forces he created a symphony

that defied all

expectations and the critics were

shocked they don't really know what to

do with this one which end should they

start gobbling it up from M's fourth

symphony is childlike in character

playful ideas poured out so abundantly

that I scarcely knew how to catch them

all and was almost almost at a loss to

fit everything in and those assembled

ideas point us to

Heaven I see it more and more one does

not compose one is

composed I'm Aaron Cohen and welcome

back to embrace everything the world of

gusta mer in these programs we take a

deep dive into Mer's extraordinary works

and this season we'll explore his fourth

Symphony

we'll hear from some of the world's

foremost conductors including Michael

Tilson Thomas Sir Simon Rattle William

Henry Curry and Kent Nagano even the

title Mar gives it a Humoresque Symphony

what exactly does that mean we'll also

speak with members of the New York

philarmonic the Philadelphia Orchestra

the Montreal Symphony Orchestra and the

Berlin philarmonic it sounds very

childish very naive but I think the idea

is it should sound like already having

one foot in heaven in Paradise we'll

learn from music Scholars from around

the world and we'll hear the words of

Mal himself as well as his closest

friends and the thinkers who inspired

him

most get ready for an extraordinary

musical

[Music]

Journey join me for season 4 of embrace

everything the Heavenly life Mer's

fourth Symphony

[Music]

well it's it's impossible not to be

inspired by that at the ending of that

third movement

absolutely it just takes you by the the

soul and then and lifts you up um so of

course this is a um

um a highly produced you know collection

of different moments in the in the piece

and I when you and I were talking about

this we thought well we would also we'll

bring some specific examples things that

have not been heard yet some real sneak

previews so um do you want to set up the

next one if I this is sort of a

biographical context I don't know um if

we want to say any more about that sure

this is the opening of episode to and

sometimes we do try to put some of the

historical stuff in and we usually play

that or do that as a lead into getting

to the music so that's what this is this

is sort of the the preview to getting

into the

music ma returns to the opening sigh

Bells actually hang on you've got the

wrong uh this is number yeah this is the

this is the wrong one that's the wrong

one you want to just jump to the episode

that's the that's the season uh episode

one excerpt we want the episode two

excerpt I think yes

nope there

you m returns to the open I think you

got the audio flip so if you want to

jump try that one let's try that one

Marco go in the summer of 1900 Mal

arrived in Meer which was to be the

site of his new house and a new

composing Hut his plan was to spend the

summer writing his fourth Symphony the

last movement was a song called The

Heavenly life and all the movements

leading up to it would feature M of this

song but once again he had trouble

getting started M's friend and Confidant

Natalie Bower lekner was there she tells

us this he was quite depressed at this

in fact desperate he was convinced that

he would no longer be able to accomplish

anything and already saw the ghastly

realization of his superstitious fear

that he would have the house for

composing but never again be able to

compose part of the problem was that M

was exhausted from a recent concert tour

in Paris but even more to blame perhaps

was the nature of the work he is engaged

on at present which necessitated going

back to last year's sketches of the four

Symphony and taking up the threads again

to get back into the work and continue

it in the same vein as before was

probably the hardest thing he has ever

done eventually Mer's compositional

juices began to flow again he stayed in

the summerhouse from 7:00 a.m. to 1:00

later as long as 8 to 10 hours

this he stood better than usual thanks

to the gloriously mild climate and the

delicious Woodland air this was mer in

his natural habitat he said this I ask

nothing of Fate except a quiet little

spot and a few weeks every year in which

I can be entirely my own Master Marina

mer Mer's granddaughter and president of

the merer foundation it's always so

amazing how somebody could have written

all that in his summer holidays

composing in the summer was M's typical

routine the intensity during the rest of

the year you know because as we sleep

things are born so sleep is also part of

this life cycle of creation and uh there

must have been an awful lot going on in

his sleep Mal agreed we know that our

second self is active while we sleep

that it grows and becomes and produces

with the real self sought and wanted in

vain the creative artist in particular

has countless proofs of this but that

this second self should have worked on

my fourth Symphony throughout 10 months

of winter sleep with all the frightful

Nightmares of the theater business is

unbelievable Ma was surprised at how

many ideas he had about his fourth

Symphony since the previous summer I

find I am taking it up at a much more

advanced stage than it had reached last

year in Al without having given it a

moment 's real attention in the meantime

on the contrary I even ran away from the

thought of it as I found it so

unsatisfying and

[Music]

painful I wonderful passages there and

and uh truly unique moments in Mar's

Reflections I mean he he does on

occasion we talk about how he writes but

uh um to hear presented in such a way I

think that's just such a

delight such so

delightful well that oh go ahead no no

go ahead I was gonna say that

um

the we try to get as much of Mer and his

you know he's the his his text is the

most important text that we have for

each episode no question and so um I'm

just grateful that we had Natalie Bower

lekner to provide us with a lot of the

things he said um and transcribed them

so beautifully and um yeah I wish I wish

uh nothing on the relationship but if

she had been around for some of the

other pieces of course it would have

been very very valuable because um as

I've discussed on other shows she was

not only a very close to M but also a

musician she knew what I questions to

ask and she could also understand even

from a technical point of view what he

was getting at so it was um yeah she did

she did the the M World certainly an

enormous favor but also the whole the

whole area of of of creativity and and

how this worked at least in the case of

this particular uh genius all right we

have uh we we uh we try had some audio

problems but the other type of of thing

that you do this is sort of the

biographical historical context but the

other aspect of that of the um the

series that you put together is very

attuned to musical elements and so we

thought we'd give you a sneak preview

how how that's being done here as

well this would be the one that's marked

um episode two probably Marco if you're

queuing up the audio since we revers

[Music]

them okay I think there's one there we

heard we heard the beginning of it we

heard

the the sleigh bells one I'm not sure

what happened to it because we had that

queued

up you might have sounds like you it

looks like you might have two different

episode two ones

Marco this is the one that's this is

130 or

133 all right

well this is an excerpt that explores

the sigh Bells which are such a unique

uh sound to the fourth Symphony and one

that um comes back a number of times and

uh yeah I can just jump in it while

Marco's looking for that just that one

of the one of the things we try to do is

um uh you know step away when something

comes up like like a slay some musical

element we jump around and see hear some

other examples of that musical element

in other contexts and so we you know

step away from the symphony for maybe a

minute here some things and we come back

and that's that's what this is an

example of maybe we've got it

here yes yes that was it you had

it that was it that was

it that was a return to the Sligh bells

and it's not the beginning of the

symphony it's later it's further into

the the first movement

right let's try it again

I can take while while Mark is looking

for that again I can also say that

sometimes we go a little longer than

that like this is something where we're

just talking about the sleigh bells as

as you'll hear in a minute but sometimes

we go you know really outside the

symphony for two three minutes talking

about uh for example what we're going to

do with the third movement is uh

variations so we're going to go and

examine what what variations are um and

then really step out and hear some other

you know really get into the concept of

musical variations and then after

several minutes come back into the

symphony so that's another Technique we

use right but this is a much shorter

shorter uh example

here Mala returns to the opening sleigh

[Music]

bells sigh Bells were a feature of his

original song The Heavenly life

conductor William Henry Curry I think

for most Americans the first time we

hear sleigh bells in a piece of music is

Leroy Anderson slay

ride which was the first piece I

conducted at H4 have conducted about

4,000 times since then always to the

Delight of the audience so whenever we

think of of sleigh bells we think of

Christmas and what other orchestral

piece before M Used sleigh bells there's

a German Dance by Mozart doesn't say the

word Christmas but it sure does sound

like

[Music]

Christmas and Mozart's father Leopold

Mozart wrote a divertimento called the

musical Sleigh

Ride let's go back to M's sleigh

[Music]

[Applause]

[Music]

bells you can sort of hear that's where

we are able to just step outside the

symphony just for a minute or two to

give a little something and then we're

back

in I um

I these are these are wonderful examples

because it as you say it takes you

outside the piece but also brings up an

awareness for instance the song Slay

bells and the beginning of the piece and

this and this moment in the middle of

the first moment um these are audible

signals that that will stay with

audiences when they hear the piece again

for sure and and uh it's extremely

valuable to isolate them and bring them

out like that anyway so you've walked

through now the the the gigantic Titan

the enormous Resurrection Symphony and

the more even more gigantic third

Symphony the fourth the fourth me must

be so much easier uh and you of course

you and I know that's not true right

well that was a surprise for me I didn't

really know that till I started doing my

research and what I discovered when I

started doing a lot of the reading is

that the mer Community doesn't agree on

the details of this Symphony in terms of

the meaning of it and

uh there's so many so many different

ideas about different places within it

and it's this is so different from the

earlier Symphonies when I was doing

Symphonies one two and three now you

might have uh mer experts disagreeing on

little details but basically everybody

agrees on the overall journey of the

symphony you know there's nobody who

listens to the end of the second

Symphony and says well well that's kind

of a downer I mean you know it just

doesn't come up everybody agrees that

what the end of that symphony is um so

um this this was a surprise for me do

you think it all I mean it may have to

do with a couple of factors one that

immediately comes to mind is that Ma was

far less explicit about what he was

doing in this piece I mean with one two

and three you can really UNC cover a lot

of information from the author as it

were um that's one aspect that uh that

enters my mind but the other you've

alluded to as well is the very

contradictory nature of the music itself

right I mean this is an En normally see

complex piece dressed as a as a

childlike Symphony which of course it's

not if you look start looking at

anything about it uh it really is far

more complicated than than it sounds so

this is a real a real challenge right I

mean you want to catch the complexity

without making it too complex and you

want to come up with a an approach that

Echoes what people are saying in the

scholarly literature um so you're in a

bit of a of a predicament we've talked a

lot about this and one of the reasons

that the fourth Symphony has been so

challenging let's talk a little bit

about the reception of it we're going to

start with Mer's own uh comment because

he did leave a few not sort of notices

about it um and certain places with

certain people uh the quote we're going

to start out with is um mer talking to

Alma and in uh the reception history of

this piece we should at least start with

merer uh I think we have a Graphic for

that my fourth Symphony will mean

nothing to you well why don't you read

it you're the you're the The Narrative

voice here my fourth Symphony will mean

nothing to you it is all humor uh naive

as you would say just what you can so

far understand least in me and what in

any case only the fewest of the few will

ever understand for all time and I have

to say I just think he's he Nails it

there because clearly here we are

125 years after things written and we're

still arguing over what it

means he was right about the that few

will understand it right I mean that's

the one thing but uh so let's just walk

through a couple of examp and then what

little time we have left I want to maybe

maybe go down that rabbit hole with you

a little bit to say what what you think

this uh this could be all about let's go

to the nature of the music itself here

we have two commentators on that the

fourth is the exact opposite of absolute

music and Bruno vter saying no it is

absolute music from beginning to end

organic in every movement um now it says

a lot about these two gentlemen uh one

coming much later than the first Bruno

wter defending the fourth Symphony for

for not being programmatic in the in the

in the vein of what Malo was trying to

um convince his followers about after

there had been rumors that there was a

program so Bruno vter here is reacting

to a programmatic rumor uh Constantine

floros is someone who is going to be

reading texts inside of notes all the

time I mean that's what he's become

famous for and that kind of explains why

we can end up on Polar Opposites with

these two gentlemen but it's it is still

the same

music let's let's go to the next

one uh this is about um I think this is

on the end of the uh the first movement

develop the end of the development

section of the first movement right end

of the

development it's the most enigmatic and

magical episode and another commentator

a nightmare experience too extreme to be

tolerated so is it magical or

nightmarish um I I think I think these

these two comments are not only meant uh

in terms of the audio sort of oral

impression but in terms of what he's

done

musically um and um in any case it's

very sophisticated H for those of you

who know a little bit about how he gets

back into the to the

recapitulation um and there is that

famous moment where he is anticipating

the the trumpet call of the first

movement of the Fifth Symphony uh

exactly at this juncture so um it does

portend uh deeper things um but again

same music all right and then our fourth

uh example here is um about style and

form just the feel of the piece the

initial moment of the fourth can hardly

be thought of as anything but an homage

to heyen in VES

classicism and uh

James sovich saying Mala was not

attempting to write an overtly

neoclassical work um this gets tricky

though doesn't it isn't it really about

intention and how one wants to interpret

the sound tell us a little bit about the

neoclassical side of this are are you

are you taking up the mantle for that

argument that that he's purposefully

going back to a to a sound from the

past uh my interpretation of it is that

he in a childlike way is pretending and

playing at being Heiden and Mozart and

Beethoven because what do you do if

you're a musical genius and you want to

have some fun it's like a little kid who

puts on a costume and pretends to be

something else so uh and of course being

as he he is mer and he has his own

musical things that are very different

from beethova mozar hen so he has uh the

sound of them but he has his does his

own things with them so I feel like it

is is mer dressing up and having fun

pretending you know to do these other

things because if you listen to I mean

you put the opening of the fourth

Symphony next to any place in the third

Symphony or the second Symphony I mean

you wouldn't even know they're the same

composer yeah uh yeah so stylistically

he certainly is is is is

refitting the ship and and and seeing

what he can uh get out of it um all

right let's go to the I think we have

one more quote for um for contrast sake

and this is Bruno wter again uh versus

um Theodor adoro um exalted happiness a

great cheerfulness and unearthly joy and

adoro saying this deeply impregnated

with sorrow now and this is getting at

something that um that you and I talked

about as well is know you know what's

the overall the overarching impact and

message or um what do we think again

what do we think it's about how do we

get to sorrow and how do we get to

happiness Ain how can you take us down

both of those

paths uh well the H the happiness part I

think uh you can hear very clearly in

the music it does strike me as a really

joyous piece um I don't hear There Are

Places uh where I hear sorrow but it's a

much smaller proportion of the symphony

uh specifically parts of the third

movement um so this the idea that the

whole thing is deeply impregnated with

sorrow doesn't doesn't ring true for me

um I was thinking about this the other

day you know the symphony is almost an

hour long if I had to point out the

parts that are sort of not joyous or um

more serious in the style of the things

we hear in maybe the second Symphony

there's only a couple minutes of that

throughout the symphony so overall I do

think it is a joyous cheerful Symphony I

don't think he can be mer without giving

us a couple of those moments and I think

think I wonder if people are just have a

hard time with the idea that this is mer

enjoying himself you know we we're so

used to this is the guy that can't seem

to write anything without throwing a

funeral March into it we have to have

you know and there isn't a funeral March

for the most part in this so you know I

I keep going back to M's quote it is all

humor and I just feel that he that he's

telling us right there but we just have

a hard time believing him in some way

knowing what we know about his other

Symphonies and what's to come and you

know this this is what I'm what I'm

coming up with in my own interpretation

of it there are there's a wonderful

podcast uh called sticky notes um by

Joshua werstein and he does two episodes

on mer 4 and he does something great at

the end he he goes through the different

interpretations three different ways we

can interpret the ending and then I

think he picks his favorite and I think

this is this is fabulous we do in some

of our earlier Seasons we'll sort of uh

play something twice and say and here's

another interpretation there another way

we can look at it so I'm all for you

know multiple interpretations and this

is something we will be doing in season

4 but I do feel that I mean the the the

quotes that are gonna be the most

important for us are going to be from

mer and Bruno Walter um and we have

others but those two are the ones that

are going to guide I think season four

yeah I mean you're try I mean you've got

do you present all the contradictory

views uh or do you do you have to decide

after all this is also an interpretive

act I mean you're taking pieces of music

and you're presenting them and as we all

know it's a question of what you present

and don't present and how you do that

right uh no one can write a book and say

it's absolutely impartial and in the

case of the model literature it would

take you a lifetime to present

everybody's perspective um so you are

coming down on on some aspect of it and

frankly given my own views as a as a

music historian I I take M's word first

and if it doesn't make sense to me I am

going to reexamine my my presuppositions

I'm going to examine you know why it

doesn't make sense to me as opposed to

dismissing it as as somehow irrelevant I

don't know maybe that's a sort of a a

wild historically based notion but I it

sounds like you're doing something

similar with this too you I make

decisions I think we absolutely agree on

that totally we both look to mer first

and one of the other things that helps

with or at least helps guide uh my

decisions is that the the the clips that

we play and the excerpts that we have

the actors read we put it on top of the

music and there has to be some truth

there it's very hard to have someone

saying this is full of sorrow and you're

hearing a cheery tune behind it so we

have to make sure that what's saying

that there's a truthfulness that comes

through with the music that the music is

also telling us and agreeing with what's

being said so that that really steers a

lot of the decisions uh that I end up

making as well because the music is the

you're being held yeah you're you're

being held up to the music in real time

right I mean there's no

avoiding as the music is is witnessing

the your very words um you know we are

running out of time we still have we're

going to go into some questions and I

would love to maybe go down the rabbit

hole of the fourth Symphony with you in

much more detail this is something that

we unfortunately don't have time for

today but there are fascinating

questions inside of all of this I also

want to before we close this segment I

want to point out that your website also

contains a lot of additional material

you mentioned uh Bernstein uh and others

and we saw a little bit of that also in

the in the graphics for these shows uh

if you go to the website H you will see

a lot more information you want to tell

us a little bit more about what else is

there it's not just a podcast if I can

put it that way sure uh each episode has

a page that lists all the different

recordings we use and everybody who's

involved in the episode we also have

some video episodes so mer and the

Maestro is both an audio you can hear it

in the podcast feed but there's also a

video version that was produced in

partnership with the New York

Philharmonic and they added all these uh

images of Leonard Bernstein that are not

the the ones the popular ones that we've

seen in all the books these are special

ones from their archives that have not

been published before so um that was

really really special we have that on

the website we have a bonus episode

about M's friend zek fre lier um who I

have a sort of a fascination with and uh

we also have a page of extras and I

think we have about 25 of them now and

these are little Clips some long Clips

some small Clips but with all sorts of

people talking about things to do with

seasons one two three this these could

be um things that for whatever reason uh

couldn't fit into the episodes or things

I I got after we finished we finished

the season and I thought oh I wish we

could get that in but let's put it right

yeah so that's that's actually expanding

My Hope Is that one day we'll have more

than a hundred uh little extras on there

right now we I think we have 25 we're

going to put a new batch up just before

the Amsterdam mer Festival so um yeah so

there's a lot on the website it's a the

worldof Gustav m.org is our website do

do go uh for all those of you who are

watching today um and I also wanted to

to introduce however briefly because I

knew we would run out of time but still

I want her on the show because she's

been a guest before and I really want to

say hi to her and maybe she can also

address some of the questions Marilyn

McCoy uh is also available for the show

today she's uh uh in our green room

waiting for this and I told her just

before the show I hope you I don't want

to put you on the spot but please join

us for a few minutes uh Marilyn

welcome I hope you're

there okay I'm here I'm here okay great

there you are Marilyn yay I just yay I

eron has talked extensively about your

tremendous contribution and I wanted

just to ask you as well what what does

this project come to mean to for you and

and how you how you go about doing this

well what I say is this is the most fun

and fulfilling thing I've ever

done and um and it it's great for many

many reasons and um and also too like

the chemistry that that Aaron and I have

especially when we were doing those

interviews like you know we would he

would interview me and usually like

because I'm fluent in German like that's

that's really something I have and so

you know I'll read all the German stuff

and so I go well this and that but then

after the while we're going well what

about this and like our minds just

started to kind of wander into really

exciting places and so that's probably

one of the most fun things about it um

but then too um it gives me the pleasure

of going back to these works and

listening to them again carefully again

yeah um which I've already done many

times and I'm sure many you know you

Morton because these pieces they they

are endlessly interesting and

complicated and so recently you know

Aaron said well what do you think about

this Mozart hien thing you know and the

the you know the influence that you know

in in the movement or in the symphony

and I kind of went hm and I was

listening to the first movement again

and I thought wait you don't know when

the symphony is going to end he fakes

you out fix you out at least three times

you think it's over and I thought that's

hidden because I just T the the joke

quartet in class that day you know and

it's like wow and so um you know it's

not overbearingly hiding but all the

same you know and so you never know for

sure but it's suggestive so um so yeah

and I also like one other kind of

interesting memory I have is that um

when we did the third um especially the

the the pieces with text and also I'm

very much interested in mer songs and

text and so I remember Aaron said okay

you know um and then also the Three

Angels you know Sayang and um and then

he threw up or you I mean you know put

up these things and I said look you know

the poem in the fifth movement is weird

and you're going to have to put

translations in and you're going to have

to kind of formulate what the heck is

going on here so the listener will get

it and so just this little short

movement that is so complicated and the

Tex is so off

and so um and that was also like working

with um you know with James with Mer's

you know M's voice and um you know

fitting it all in and so um so that was

that was kind of fun and um so so yeah

and then also I remember too like he

asked me a question about the adashia

the last movement of the third and I was

like hm I am going to sit down and I'm

going to solve this thing that I've

wondered about for the longest time you

know like what is the structure of this

what is this refrain form so so anyway

so it's generally just it's really fun

and well you learned so much on on

projects and again teaching is like that

too and you have to present and you have

to put things into a a form that is

communicated uh it opens up so many uh

floodgates of of of learning from

oneself even if you've been as you said

Marilyn you've been over this so many

times the learning process never ends

which is just a great joy and and and

you know Aaron the way you've managed to

put this all together um makes it so

accessible which of course you do too as

well Marilyn I I have lots of questions

here we are overtime but I am going to

go through the questions because I think

um people deserve to hear answers um

because they are clearly being very

attentive uh on today's show so Anthony

rman writes how have you managed to

arrange the distribution of the pods to

such a wide audience personal

connections and have you used AI to

assist I guess this is really more of a

marketing question how does it get out

there to the

world uh I use a company uh one company

that distributes it to all the different

podcast platforms um and that's

available um I think to anybody who

wants to sign up for at art9 and um uh

as far as AI I have been thinking about

how to get AI involved with this um we

might I might be using some of it with

season 4 uh helping with some of the

scripts I I I'm convinced that by the

time I get to season 10 I'll be able to

say to AI five years from now play me

season 10 and it will just invent it for

me and play it and and it'll be better

than anything we could come up with you

know and it'll just do my voice and

it'll do everything it'll you know so

yeah that's kind of where to me it's a

sad day it just shows how old I am H

another question from Anthony rman uh

how much were you influenced by lonard

Bernstein's lectures and TV broadcasts

as an inspiration for the concept of

embrace

everything well lard Bernstein's one of

my great Heroes um I have loved uh the

young people's concerts and the Harvard

lectures and I've read and read and read

and listen listen listen but I actually

came to him uh sort of after I started I

mean I loved him but I really got more

into it once the series Once I was

already Embark I once i' already

embarked on the series as I as I came to

understand just how you know he was done

yeah he was the prophet he was the guy

who gave us yeah yeah here's a question

from Raymond Chan how do you get

feedback from your audience are they

mostly familiar with mer already or

general music lovers any special story

to share from the audience feedback

thank thanks for the podcast Series yeah

well I get emails from everybody around

the from around the world every week uh

people listeners I have my email is on

on the website um uh just I think last

month I got a wonderful note from uh a

woman in Australia who had said she was

just you know she just decided she'd

heard a lot about mer she you know did a

search came came up with this and what

she said was she just didn't expect to

fall in love uh you know with with the

music which is what happened uh so I

always thought that was just a beautiful

thing and yeah that's what we're that is

beautiful so the answer in terms of

communication is mostly email and they

communicate directly with you um yes

through yeah your channel uh I have one

from John nap you do an incredible job

of inserting an overlaying commentary on

the music so that it's never disruptive

but instead always illustrative and

additive so many promising music

podcasts and audiobooks have failed at

this to my great frustration so one

Kudos and two did you have this

experience listening to other Works

before you started did you research

other attempts at this format to see

what worked and what did

not it's funny you mention that yes I

did I've I've done a couple programs

similar to this the big the warm-up the

warm-up to the merer series was actually

a three-part series about rard Strauss

which feels actually appropriate um and

that was a radio program that happened

in

2014 um where uh it was a similar

technique that that we had many guests

there was a narrator and the music was

underscored through the whole thing it's

called um music is a holy art that's

actually on our website if you and it's

also if you just do a search for music

as a holy art you can find that series

um and I also did a program many many

years ago with Jad abumrad who is the

host of Radio Lab U people might know

him uh just an incredible radio

personality um we did about vogner's

Ring cycle a program called the ring and

I which was similar to this and then we

had a bunch of guests and Chad was

narrating and the music and and and we

had a lot of fun with it and that

program did very well um and still

available you can look up the ring and I

uh as well so uh yes I would say that

all of that was practice for M

everything and my now I just feel like

everything was practice for mer because

that was the one I always wanted to do

yeah yeah like we said at the beginning

sort of looking back it makes sense but

while you're doing it it's a a lot of

groping about isn't it um I have one

from Victoria thank you for generously

sharing your extraordinary contributions

for Humanity please can you tell us when

you the very first time you heard mer

where were you and how old were

you I think I was I think I was in

Copenhagen Denmark and I was uh I heard

a concert of the seventh Symphony um

which is interesting because to this day

I still love the seventh I never had I

know that for some people that's just

not a favorite but for me it always has

been sort of the odd duck in there um

and I just heard that and I thought wow

this is this is really

that just just grabbed me right away how

old were you I think I was 16 16 17

um yeah that's I think we we this is the

mer moment that in a sense I was

alluding to at the beginning of the show

I think we we kind of remember when when

something happened and then things were

different after that and then you

realize that music can do this this is

what I always trying to explain as well

that you know I this is this is um yeah

it's going to a place that I hadn't

experienced in any other composers

another there's a comment here from

Jason star Bravo Ain you cover so much

about each Symphony from the biography

to the philosophy to the music can you

tell us how you managed to integrate

these different elements so effectively

into a single dramatic

Arch

uh I think a lot of uh uh you know trial

and you know drafts many many many many

drafts you put it up it doesn't work you

change something and then you just keep

doing that until it it does work so um

there's a lot of experimentation it's

never whatever I whatever my first draft

is that's nowhere near where we'll

actually find our way well the only

other thing I'll say about that is there

are producers who like to write it all

in the script and I like to get it off

the page and into the audio as quickly

as possible so that I can hear how the

music is working with the commentary so

I'm usually when I'm tweaking drafts I'm

not even looking at the script I'm just

listening to what we have and trying to

improve it

I liked what you said about having the

music in the commentary and and then

building in your bit because you know

what needs to be filled in and you know

what wants you know what wants to be

said even if it's said or not said and

in case it isn't you say it right I mean

that's another way to take command of

the material uh and that's a great great

luxury um and this is a similar question

from Francisco bicio what are the

criteria you use to decide what stays

and what has to be discarded I'm sure

there are many gems you wish would wish

they would have stayed in the show yes

uh well ultimately it comes down to and

I you're right Franc there are

heartbreaking moments of stuff I still

wish we had kept in some way or I'll

find another way or it ends up on the

extras page um uh but ultimately comes

down to you know for the episode does

the

episode have what it needs touch on all

the important things do it in a way

that's inspiring and and elegant and

graceful um and

you know give the listener what what I

sort of consider to be the most

important it needs to you know the

episodes kind of need to stand alone so

if you've got a lot of extra stuff in

there it can feel like the episode's

kind of clunky even if you really like

the material um so the episode's kind of

become their own their own little works

of art that have to live on their own so

that that's sort of how I end up making

those decisions yeah good good um good

Insight Sixto spec Messa writes uh m

Foundation uh will um sorry will Embrace

everything cover aspects of performance

practice uh for example Mal wrote for

specific layout of strings is confirmed

by B lner and photographs this might

even be something for you Marilyn I I

don't know are you going to talk about

this um could you repeat the

question specific layout Mala wrote

about specific layout of the strings and

we know this from photographs and from

comments in BNA is this an aspect that

you will talked about in terms of

performance practice actually I didn't

know about that until recently I noticed

it so I I hadn't read about it I haven't

seen photographs but um but I have

noticed um how original and inventive uh

you know the orchestration is um it's it

there's again it's something that sounds

so simple but it's not so many different

colors that wouldn't have come out any

other way so I'm not surprised at all to

hear that um but it'll be interesting I

don't I don't really know I haven't

don't Haven

have any knowledge of any evidence but

it it might be there well the

arrangement of the strings where you put

the firsts and seconds I mean that's one

thing that's obviously a big question do

you divide the violins and in M's day

that seems to have been the practice at

least for M um all right there's a

there's another question about

instruments here in fact Anthony rman

writes back sigh bells are or Jester's

Bell wasn't life a terrible joke for

gusta merer oh there's a there's a a

weight a weighty question and a and a if

I may say so one with a lot of um

implication well I would say that those

two thank you for that there those are

those comments from mer came from two

different places the one about isn't

life a joke that's from the second

Symphony when he's you know raising his

fist at God in the Totten fire movement

and the jester cap is what he said about

the opening of the fourth Symphony so

those comments are coming five years

apart he's working on very different

material um so for me they're they're

different yes but but does the gesture

comment refer to the slay Bell sonority

I think that I do feel it does yes sorry

I didn't get that part yes yes and then

that would that would that then imply

that it's that it's just all a big joke

in other words the humor here is that of

a of a

sardonic uh

variety I for me I don't think so I

think this is a Jean Paul kind of humor

um

a and so

the there is a playfulness there is a I

I feel like that um uh um gestur cap is

meant uh in the innocent childlike way

not

sardonic okay that's my interpretation

of it I feel like I feel like it is part

of the cheerful Light Spirit uh of the

first movement yeah of course a jester

was the one who the one person who got

away with making fun of the of the King

right there is that

yeah um uh John nap asks another

question if there's time do you know the

origin of Bernstein's decision to have a

boy sing the Fourth Movement of the

fourth obvious inspiration is found in

that takes itself but did M himself

consider it I don't know uh the

inspiration of that I've heard the

recording but I really don't know I mean

I don't think M more than you might know

um I have no reason to think mer wanted

that he does say something about the

singer having to be you know to have the

give the impression of navit and you

know not some sort of soprano Idol

coming out there and and having her show

she's really supposed to be very much in

the background to the music uh that's

true but I know I see no I hear no

reference to a boy suo you Marilyn I

feel like I have a vague memory of that

but it could be hearing Bernstein's

recording first yeah and thinking this

was a bad idea you know because um you

know bo boy soprano to sing that that

song for a kid and and to be as relaxed

as you need to be um is very difficult

because I recently found um a recording

of um a boy soprano singing la dominum

this gorgeous solo by Mozart from the

Mozart Vespers and he was the most

laid-back I thought wellow that kid is

relaxed enough maybe you know to pull it

off but um um I think mer had to know

that that wouldn't work too you know he

had to

know the idea of it being a child comes

from also a a a a movement title he

considered for the do laen when it was

still part of this third Symphony and it

was called what the child tells me so to

the extent that there is a reference to

the child in regard to that movement

that's true and that is Mer but of

having an actual child perform it uh

that I think would be going uh a step

further than than M had conceived anyway

interesting question I'm going to go

look now one other thought I might just

add there is it seems to me that Mala

really does like the female voices when

you think of you know the metso soprano

in the third Symphony uh and the you

know or in the second Symphony I mean I

feel like he really likes the female

voice yeah and he does he does use Boy

Choir in in the fifth movement of the

third Symphony and and uh and in the

eighth Symphony and so there there are

there you know sounds that he's using

But but so he could he could have called

for that if that in fact was what he

wanted I I would suspect yeah um I have

a question from Pedro

aroa uh KAG I hope I'm pronouncing your

name right um reacting to your season 10

comment what about season 11 Erin and I

think there might be a reference here to

the fact that there are 10 numbered

Symphonies and dust lead I I hope you're

going to do dust lead yes definitely

going to do dust lead and I also wonder

another possible interpretation of that

question is AI going to give us M's 11

Symphony would listen through all the

mer Symphonies and project where mer

would would go or maybe another another

version of the 10th rewrite the 10th

again I mean I don't know but there's

who knows where AI is gonna take us no

this is there I believe that has already

been attempted actually H but season 11

would be necessary even if you didn't

come up with another Symphony because of

the fact that uh you know Season 10

would be um the 10 Symphony and then of

course th Le would make it number 11 uh

depending on the order there's another

question by Pedro aroa uh you mentioned

at the end of the development but what

about the beginning of the

recapitulation isn't it masterful I

think we kind of covered it the first

mov of the fourth of course um yes it's

the transition to the to the beginning

of the recap which of course is not the

beginning of the theme because that

already began at the end of the

development uh quite cleverly um and of

course yes very masterful uh I have a

another question hello from uh hello

from itha New York as a non-m

musicologist but mod Enthusiast for more

than 40 45 years who has read all the

major biographies I just want to say

that Aaron's work has been unique and

that it helps explain to me why I have

the visual responses I have uh that I

have to the music Bravo that's very very

nice

um okay and then one more do you uh from

Victoria do you feel

free uh I'm just not quite understanding

the sentence here share with us how the

Rockefeller Foundation found out about

you uh I guess I'm assuming you applied

but I guess tell us a little bit more

about that yes there's an application uh

form that you have to fill out and then

there's an interview process um and then

uh one day they they called and and said

we'd love to have you here which was a

great well great uh many thanks for both

of you for coming today um and uh good

luck with season 4 thank you thank thank

you so much just great to talk with you

Morton really appreciate it we're way

over time folks but I'm going to I'm

just end the show here I have a few

announcements we've received questions

recently about the involvement of Malo

Foundation at the upcoming Kabal Mala

Festival in May and I I'm for one I'm

happy to announce that I have been asked

to present all of the pre-concert talks

of the symphonic repertoire so if you

are attending the festival do drop by

before the performance for a preview of

the symphony featured that evening so

I'll be doing all of the Symphonies

which I greatly look forward to and you

have the dates there 9 through 18 May

coming up uh in uh this year also look

for an upcoming announcement of an event

uh that Mala Foundation is still

planning to host members of Mala

societies from around the world and more

we'll uh try to keep you updated on that

as well so for all of the of you Mala

people coming uh we will hopefully be

able to see you and meet you there the

Malo hour brought to you by Mala

foundation and contributors around the

world is monthly streaming event

bringing together individuals interested

in the composer The Thinker the humanist

Gustav mer as we explore not only his

life and works but also how his legacy

still informs essential aspects of The

Human Experience and how we can turn

that experience into a force for the

good in today's world become a member

and support our activities I want to

thank my guests today Aaron Cohen and

Marilyn McCoy for joining us as well as

our production team Marco aala and

Monica angano our executive director for

administration the Mal hour is back a

month from today March 22nd with a

segment dedicated to Mala resources

online and the international ghost of M

Society I hope you can join us that's

our program for today stay safe thanks

for watching